1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: Fellow ridiculous historians. This week's classic episode is hopefully aspirational 2 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: for you. Have you ever run out of regular state 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:13,399 Speaker 1: approved currency and started to try started your own thing 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: like ben Buck's or Nol Nichols or max Moolah. 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 2: Absolutely happens every day, and given the state of the 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,639 Speaker 2: economy these days, it might be a smart thing to 7 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 2: look into for the future. No, we're kidding, it's always 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 2: a bad deal for them. What bear these notes cave 9 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 2: the company store? 10 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, sixteen tons. Indeed, it might sound like you were saying, Nol. 11 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: It might sound like a Bonker's idea in twenty twenty 12 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: six outside of NFTs and crypto, But during the poorly 13 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: named Great Depression, a lot of communities banded together. They 14 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: couldn't trust Uncle Sam's currency, so they made up their 15 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: own local currency. 16 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and in this case it's actually not a bad idea. 17 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: I don't mean to malign the whole concept. If you 18 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 2: have like intentional communities and you agree upon what things 19 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 2: are worth, by all means, go with God. But we 20 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: are also referring to situations where folks were given very vaguely, 21 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 2: you know, valueless currency and that they could only use 22 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 2: at certain places, and it was really more way of 23 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 2: controlling people than empowering them. 24 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: Let's roll the tape. Yeah, Ridiculous History is a production 25 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. You know, whether you're reading the news headlines 26 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty three or twenty nineteen, quickly realized the 27 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: world is ending for someone somewhere every day. That's a 28 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: heavy way to start, but we're going somewhere with it. 29 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Ben. Hey, I'm no, it's true, Ben. I mean, 30 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 2: we think about the Great Depression, right, but if there's 31 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 2: a Great Depression, surely there must be dozens, if not hundreds, 32 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 2: of minor depressions, many depressions, microdepressions, recessions. 33 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: He is a word that's often bandied about. And you know, 34 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: depending on where you grew up, you probably heard various 35 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:34,119 Speaker 1: pundits in your country or province or your state claiming 36 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: that a depression rivaling the Great Depression was looming imminently 37 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: on the horizon, looming. Indeed, like our own super producer 38 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 1: Casey Pegram, who looms large, the man has swag. And 39 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: speaking of swag, let's talk a little bit about the 40 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties in the United States, also called the Roaring twenties, right, the. 41 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 2: Gilded Age, not like all the time. 42 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: Because at this time there was a woeful divide between 43 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: the haves and the have nots in the US, and 44 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: everything seemed like, depending on your position in society, everything 45 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: seemed like it was growing at this frenetic, hectic place 46 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,519 Speaker 1: until that is, the stock market crashed in October of 47 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:24,679 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine. 48 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 2: Well, what's the thing, I mean? There was this sense 49 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 2: that everything was just honky dor though. Well to do 50 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 2: but spend them money handover fist on luxury goods and 51 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 2: dancing and all of that stuff. And the people that 52 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 2: had less money credit was relatively easy to come by. 53 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 2: They were spending hand over fist with money they did 54 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 2: not actually own. 55 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: And as you can see, this situation was unsustainable. Eventually, 56 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: the bubble, as bubbles do, went and our country entered 57 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: what is called today the Great Depression. By nineteen thirty two, 58 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: the economy contracted by thirty one percent and an estimated 59 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: thirteen million people were left unemployed. For comparison, that's like 60 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:08,559 Speaker 1: twenty five percent. 61 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 2: Of the workforce. 62 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: Franklin Delano Roosevelt took office in nineteen thirty two. He 63 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: started something called the New deal, which was designed to 64 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: boost federal spending, create government jobs for people who couldn't 65 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 1: get private sector jobs, and ultimately led to some really 66 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: amazing cultural progress and great public works here in the US. 67 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: But today's story is not about that. Today's story is 68 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 1: about how people managed to get by when they found 69 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: themselves in a situation where the bank they counted on 70 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: was closed. The currency that they were so used to, 71 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: the US dollar, was gone. 72 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, like poof, it's gone overnight. This thing that we 73 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 2: thought we could rely on, that would always be there 74 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 2: for us when we woke up the next morning was 75 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 2: now really shown to be this sort of ephemeral idea. 76 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 2: And the Great Depression was worldwide in its scope. It 77 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 2: wasn't just I mean, you know, it's a chain reaction 78 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 2: because everything's interconnected because of trade. And this is how 79 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 2: the US Department of Commerce characterized the Great Depression in general. 80 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 2: It has like a list that they officially used to 81 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 2: break this down, and there were nine points, and let's 82 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 2: let's split them up in let's do it so. Number 83 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 2: one an unemployed population estimated at over twelve million. This 84 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 2: of course is in the United States portion of it. 85 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: Number two, a serious agricultural situation resulting from excessive production, 86 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: ruinous ruinously low prices and large debts. 87 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,239 Speaker 2: Number three, a financial and credit system in grave danger 88 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 2: of collapse. 89 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: Number four, a large internal debt on the government side. 90 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 2: Number five almost insurmountable barriers to foreign trade. 91 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: Number six A quote perplexing foreign debt situation. 92 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: I love that word. Yeah, it's also very vague, but 93 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 2: it just means like, huh, what are we gonna do 94 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 2: about this? This is quite perplexed. 95 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: It also just candidly sounds like somewhat at the Department 96 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: of Commerce said, how can we explain this in one sentence? Yeah, 97 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: because we can't do the whole five page paper, right, 98 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: They really. 99 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 2: Are going for a brevity kind of thing. Here a 100 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: number seven, an unbalanced federal budget. 101 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: Number eight, disorganized state and municipal finances. 102 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 2: Number nine, increasing disorder, and an almost complete lack of 103 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 2: confidence on the part of the people. That's kind of 104 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 2: key here, isn't it. Right? See? This is this is 105 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 2: the problem. 106 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: A lot of the larger financial things we're talking about 107 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: wouldn't occur to a lot of the people in the 108 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: US on the ground at the time. You know what 109 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: I mean, Say, oh, well, foreign debt is complicated. 110 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: Excuse me. 111 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: Four in debt is perplexing. But if you are, you know, 112 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: living in an agriculture community somewhere in Oklahoma, you will 113 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: be more concerned with what is happening in your neck 114 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: of the global woods. So the problem that people were having, 115 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: in addition to all this economic uncertainty, this lack of 116 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: faith in the economic system, and the very difficult situation 117 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: of trying to find a job when you were unemployed, 118 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: the thing that really bugged them is that there was 119 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: very little physical money in the hands of people. And 120 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: because people didn't know, Like if you had, you know, 121 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: ten one dollar bills and you thought it might be 122 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 1: months or even years before you ever saw any physical 123 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: currency again, you wouldn't use that. You would try to barter, 124 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: you would try to borrow, you would hoard the physical 125 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: currency you had, and that slows down the economic circulatory system. 126 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 2: This is kind of the era of stuffing your mattress 127 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 2: with cash, keeping it on hand. Let's let's do a 128 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 2: little metaphor, is that we can all understand twinkies. Okay, 129 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 2: let's say twinkies are currency. Uh, if if everyone's holding 130 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: onto the twinkies and it's eating themselves with their supply 131 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 2: of twinkies. Little by little, we don't see twinkies in 132 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 2: circulation anymore than twinkies kind of lose their value or 133 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 2: lose their meaning in terms of the way it's interconnected 134 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 2: in our society. Right, such is the case with cash. 135 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 2: So you have to replace twinkies with something else. You 136 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 2: have to replace cash with something else because no one's 137 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 2: feeding it back into the system. So what you have 138 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 2: to do you have to create a new delicious snack. 139 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: But wait, someone might say, what about banks, isn't it 140 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: their job to keep money flowing? That's that's a good 141 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: that's a good point. 142 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 2: What about the hostess company? Why aren't they putting more 143 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: twinkies out into the world. 144 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: So the problem is that these banks can only do 145 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: their job when they are open, and a lot of 146 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: them close permanently. It was both an effect of the 147 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: early stage of the Great Depression and it was an 148 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: exacerbating factor. It got so bad that in nineteen thirty three, 149 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: President Roosevelt declared a banking holiday quote unquote. This shut 150 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: down the entire national banking system. But between nineteen thirty 151 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: and that date, in March nineteen thirty three, about half 152 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: the banks in the United States had either permanently closed 153 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: or merged with others, and the ones that were still 154 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: around cut back their deposits and loans, and they also started, 155 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,199 Speaker 1: you know, basically hoarding money. So everybody's hoarding cash, and 156 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: of course it makes total sense, you know, without getting 157 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: to personal. A lot of my family is from rural 158 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:47,719 Speaker 1: Appalachia or Appalachia however you prefer to say it. And 159 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 1: I had relatives who were who still didn't trust still 160 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: didn't trust banks, which was crazy growing up with those people. 161 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: And yes they were older, but they did have stories about, 162 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: you know, burying stuff in the ground or hiding it 163 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: in a creek or a creek somewhere and then coming 164 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: back and finding it years later. The problem is that 165 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: when no one is spending money and money anyway, the 166 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: concept of economy is arguably a religion, but money is 167 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: an article of faith, right and when no one believes 168 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: in it, then it loses its social value. So this 169 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: causes deflation. The money's not in the system, no one 170 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: if people probably have some cash stashed away somewhere, but 171 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: they're never going to touch it, and with less and 172 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: less physical cash available, and with money worth less and 173 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 1: less than before they did, they did as you say, no, 174 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: they turned to alternatives. 175 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 2: So, Ben, just to backcheck a little bit, we foreshadowed 176 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 2: this idea of alternatives. I really tried to make my 177 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 2: Twinkie metaphor work. I'm going to let that one die. 178 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 2: I'm fine with that. I tried my best. But here's 179 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 2: my question. Why wasn't the government pushing more money into circulation? 180 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 2: Like why was it entirely about the individuals? Is it 181 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 2: because it had deflated so much because of that loss 182 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 2: of confidence that what would be the point? No one's 183 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 2: using it anyway? What are they just going to do 184 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 2: go door to door and say here's a bunch of money, 185 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: can you please spend it? 186 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good question, right. And I didn't think 187 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:20,839 Speaker 1: that Twinkie metaphor was bad at all. I think you 188 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: should beat yourself up, man. 189 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:22,959 Speaker 2: I appreciate that, Ben. 190 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: So, there are a couple of intervening variables here, or 191 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: contributing factors. Maybe would be a better way to say it. 192 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: First is that we know from various cases throughout history, 193 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: and some that happened well before the Great Depression, that 194 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: when you just start minting money and you just start 195 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: printing money, minting coins of printing money. Then people are 196 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: aware that there's much more money out there, and that 197 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,479 Speaker 1: that drives these economic problems to even further extremes. 198 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 2: It makes total sense then, so they honestly would have 199 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 2: just doubled down on the problem. It would have devalued 200 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 2: the currency even more, because now it's everywhere. People are 201 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,959 Speaker 2: literally handing it out in the streets and it's like, wow, well, 202 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 2: I definitely don't believe in this. I need there to 203 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 2: be some scarcity in order for me to feel like 204 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 2: my money is worth something. 205 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: You know what I learned about these kind of tendencies 206 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: at a young age. I don't know if I ever 207 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: told you. This is a weird. This is a weird, 208 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: very short story. One time when I was when I 209 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: was a little bit younger, I was I was going 210 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,199 Speaker 1: through some tough times in my life, and I asked, 211 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 1: I asked my dad, who's appeared on this show. I said, 212 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: I said, hey, hey, pops, do you think I'll ever 213 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: actually be a millionaire? And then he said, well, you know, son, 214 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: you could be a millionaire tomorrow because money is just 215 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: an idea and they can always print more and then 216 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,320 Speaker 1: if you're a millionaire, everybody will be a millionaire. It'll 217 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: be horrible, it'll be worthless. And I was like, wow, 218 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: it's cold water man. 219 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 2: Seriously, was that like does that make you feel better? 220 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 2: Or where should that kind of like introduce a whole 221 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 2: new existential crisis to you? A very good points. Yeah, 222 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: it is a good point, but it's also kind of like, 223 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 2: what's the point at right? Right? Why bother? 224 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: So you know, maybe these people were in a why 225 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: bother situation. This idea that you could not trust Uncle 226 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: Sam's coupons led people to say, well, we have to 227 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,439 Speaker 1: we have to do something because you know, before the 228 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: era of currency, the most popular form of transactional medium 229 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 1: is going to be bartering. Just straight, I have eight twinkies, 230 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: but I really want the Hostess cupcakes with the little 231 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: lattice of white icing on them. 232 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 2: Ding Dongs? Are those ding dongs? Hoes? Hoes? Little debbies? 233 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: Maybe they're little debbies. They look like cupcakes, their Hostess cupcakes. 234 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 2: I think they're ding dongs. Really, Yeah, what a terrible name. 235 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 2: It's a really bad name. It sounds like a depression snack. 236 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 2: Well here's I'm gonna I'm gonna ask. I'm gonna beg 237 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 2: Casey to shive us a little a little clip of 238 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 2: I remember that scene in Batman the movie, the motion 239 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 2: picture Who do you Trust? Who do you trust? Can 240 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 2: we a little Prince Q real quick? Trust? Now photos, 241 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 2: It's time for who do you trust? Money? Money? Money? 242 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 2: Who do you trust me? I'm giving away free money? 243 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 2: And where is the man? 244 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: He's it? 245 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the scene where the Joker is passing out 246 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 2: money and everyone's freaking out and gathering it up off 247 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 2: the streets. Then they look at it and realize it 248 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 2: has the Joker's face on it, sort of like your 249 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 2: ben bucks. 250 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: Right, yes, but uh, but that's the work of fiction. 251 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: Ben bucks are very real. 252 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 3: Okay, that's fair, And in a way, this episode is 253 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 3: kind of an advertisement for for the validity of these 254 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 3: sorts of things, because, aside from being the only kind 255 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 3: of currency you can trust in these our modern days 256 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 3: and uncertain times, ben bucks are something that exists with 257 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 3: historical precedent. 258 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 2: No, what is script? Yeah, exactly, the question of who 259 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 2: do you trust? You don't trust Uncle Sam. You don't 260 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 2: trust the big banks because they screwed you over, they 261 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 2: screwed the pooch, and they might close. They might close. 262 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 2: They're also not around. They're not there for you. Right, 263 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 2: Who is there for you? Maybe at least at arms 264 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 2: length is your local municipality, perhaps even as your local shopkeeper, 265 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 2: your local economy that is there for you to see 266 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 2: and to interact with. So scrip is cash, well, cash 267 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 2: is even a weird kind of ephemerald term. It is 268 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 2: currency issued by local governments or businesses or even human people. 269 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: Right and an individuals. 270 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 2: We agree that it means something because we say it does. 271 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 2: And I don't know how they did the math where 272 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: it equals certain you know, the amount of goods they 273 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 2: had to trade or whatever, but it obviously they had 274 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 2: to exchange it for something, and there had to be 275 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 2: a system that gave it some value that they agreed upon. Yeah, 276 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 2: it is all faith based, isn't it. Yeah? 277 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: It's an iou and script has been used in various 278 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: various ways throughout history. It reminds me of that one 279 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: great song, what is it sixteen tons? 280 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 2: How do you get company store? Yeah? Company store? Help out? 281 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 2: A company store which is kind of inherently userless because 282 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 2: the idea of the company store is that you're working 283 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 2: off your debt and you're getting goods in exchange for 284 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 2: your labor, but you're not really able to ever work 285 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 2: your way out of debt. Because that's the line another day, older, 286 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: deeper and debt. 287 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's a reference to businesses wherein someone would 288 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: have to they would work at this business, they would 289 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: be paid not in cash, but in a script that 290 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: was only usable at a store that was also owned 291 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: by the business for which you were employed. 292 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, a modern day example that I think 293 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 2: something's being done about is a lot of lift or 294 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 2: Uber drivers will lease their car through lift or Uber 295 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,360 Speaker 2: and then the money they make driving for that service 296 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 2: literally goes back to paying off that note. But it's 297 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 2: an incredibly inflated interest rates, so it's kind of like 298 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 2: it's a losing proposition. 299 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 1: Although on a good note, there was recently a court case, 300 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:31,159 Speaker 1: maybe not in this country yet, where someone was an 301 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: Uber driver was decreed to be an employee and not 302 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: just an independent contractor. So hopefully they'll get some more rights. 303 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: But that's a good you know, that's a good comparison. 304 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: And think about those are the ways we name two 305 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: ways uber Lyft and company stores. Those are the ways 306 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: in which script can be used to hurt the employees, 307 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: hurt the proletariat. But in this case, script was used 308 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,399 Speaker 1: to keep local economies going. 309 00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 2: Because it all goes back again, Casey, who do you trust? 310 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 2: Just yeah, you're right, Ben, we're talking about negative examples. 311 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 2: This was a way to help economies exist, and it 312 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 2: was about trust. Yeah. Yeah. 313 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: So, no matter how well you know everyone in your community, 314 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: no matter how tight knit you are, it can be 315 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: difficult to exist completely on a barter system. So let's 316 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: say there's one family or one proprietor some lady or 317 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:33,160 Speaker 1: some guy owns the local general store, right, and they've 318 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: been extending credit to everyone in the community, and they 319 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,400 Speaker 1: decide to start issuing script and their script. Let's say 320 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: it's Bandarino's General Goods and Sundry, and Bandarino's General Good 321 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: and Sundry issues script to the people, the good people 322 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: of the town of Bandarino, and now they start using 323 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: it like cash. They don't just use it at that store, though, 324 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: they use it with one another. Okay, here's the problem 325 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: with bartering real quick is that it can very quickly 326 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 1: get into some intermediaries and complicated plot twists. So let's 327 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: say noel that you are an eggman and that you 328 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: have haggar and eggman an enthusiast. You know a poultry 329 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 1: farmer who specializes in eggs for some reason, and you 330 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 1: want to buy some glue to fix something related to 331 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: your business, a shack or something. You want some caulk 332 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: or whatever. And Casey, being the glue man in town, 333 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: you would be able to give him some eggs, but 334 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 1: Casey doesn't want glue. Instead, Casey wants a different good 335 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: or service. He wants someone like, let's say I'm a 336 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: blacksmith or a farrier. He wants someone to put to 337 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: shoe his horses. Right, And you say, look, I've got 338 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: these eggs. I need this glue. You know, Stall's coming in. 339 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 1: And then he says he says, look I am lousy 340 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 1: with eggs. You got to give me something else. And 341 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: then you go to me and you say, look, I 342 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: got these eggs. Can I give you these eggs? And 343 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: you shoe this guy's horses and then he'll give me 344 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: this glue. So already now we have so many transactions 345 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: happening too, right, and currency simplifies that. 346 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 2: It absolutely simplifies that. And this local or regional issued 347 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: script would be printed or carved or what have you 348 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 2: issued on a various and sundry materials, everything from like 349 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 2: wooden tokens, the idea of a wooden nickel, you know 350 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 2: you ever heard that one don't take them, don't take them, 351 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 2: or a fish skin parchment of some kind. You know 352 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 2: you've heard the idea of of in indigenous cultures using 353 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 2: things like seashells at our currency. Yeah, that came back 354 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 2: into into fashion here you did have you can look 355 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 2: it up online and it's pretty amazing because there is 356 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 2: there are current museums I'm sure where you can see 357 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 2: dozens of these things, all different kinds, sort of like 358 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 2: the early days of speculatory currency that we talked about 359 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 2: in previous episodes, right, the two dollars bill episode, I 360 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 2: believe printed regular looking bills that had that had markings 361 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 2: on them and text on them and images that would 362 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 2: link them to a specific market, let's call it, right, 363 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 2: and they would be accepted, you know, with open arms 364 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 2: in these markets, and then sometimes in regions outside of 365 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 2: these markets they'd accept them too. But what would they do. 366 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 2: They'd charge you those lift or uber car loan rates. 367 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: Right, right, So one band Aurino piece of script, right 368 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: that you usually use in the good town of band Reino. 369 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: You can go to the other town of umberto Ecoville 370 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: and you can give them that script, but they'll say, hey, 371 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: this is worth four of these equals one of the 372 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: Umberto Ecoville script that we use. So now you are 373 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: you twenty five percent of the buying power used to this. 374 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: So this kept local businesses alive, but it also made 375 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: the larger regions fragmented. You can see an excellent collection 376 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: of this script at the Museum of American Finance, which 377 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: is a real thing, and you can see the various issuers. 378 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 1: You can also and I think this is pretty fascinating 379 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: to your point, Noel. You can see the different materials 380 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: that were used. Well, just we can say a couple 381 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: of examples. I got to tell you a lot of 382 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: these look better than modern currency. One looks like kind 383 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 1: of a monopoly bill Hepner sheepskin script which is worth 384 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: one dollar from nineteen thirty four. 385 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:48,359 Speaker 2: I believe. 386 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: And then did you see the one for Micosta County, Michigan, also. 387 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 2: From nineteen thirty seve And then then you have the 388 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 2: inside scoop on this. Give it to me it's wonderful. 389 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 2: It's striking, it's bold. It's like the dorrito if a 390 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 2: dorito is a piece of currency. 391 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 1: It's it's bright yellow and it looks like it's a 392 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: four color print job. They've got some great photos. And 393 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: it's issued again, not by the State of Michigan, not 394 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: by the government of the United States, but it is 395 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: issued by the Macosta County, authorized by their Bord of Supervisors. 396 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 1: And it's almost like a bond because the idea is, 397 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: it says here on the currency. The idea is that 398 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: they will pay to the bearer face value of this 399 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:46,160 Speaker 1: certificate at three percent per annum from the date of issue, 400 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: so anem per year got it. So it's it's worth 401 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 1: a dollar now. Let's say Casey has one of these, 402 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,719 Speaker 1: it's worth a dollar now, and then every year that 403 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: he holds on to it, it's worth three percent more 404 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: than it was. So really what they're doing is kind 405 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 1: of investing. 406 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 2: Again. 407 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: It's an IOU with a baked in interest rate. 408 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 2: Some of these were almost like bonds of some kind, right, and. 409 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: Then you can also see some of the wooden things. 410 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: There were real wooden nickels or wooden token scripts. There's 411 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: a wooden dollar from North Bend, Oregon, and there are 412 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 1: other wooden scripts from Washington. The point we're making is 413 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: that these were occurring in more than one state, you 414 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: know what I mean. This was not just like one 415 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: innovative answer from one small town. 416 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 2: No, absolutely not. And it's interesting too because a lot 417 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 2: of these, I mean, they had to be hand issued, 418 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 2: or at least to give them a sense of legitimacy. 419 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 2: They were signed by officials, you know. Yeah, it looks 420 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 2: to me based on the difference in the printing like 421 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 2: this Washington fish skin parchment script from nineteen thirty four 422 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 2: has three signatures on it. The base printing of the 423 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 2: actual certificate is blue and that the signatures are in 424 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 2: black ink. So I'm assuming that these were not just printed, 425 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 2: they were signed by hand to give them real weight 426 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 2: and legitimacy. 427 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: Quite possibly, yeah, because they were functioning as legal documents. 428 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 1: That's another thing. This stuff, when it happened, it didn't 429 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: happen because everybody in the country at the same time 430 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: made up a similar plan. A lot of people were 431 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: arriving at this process by what we call parallel thought, 432 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: you know, and that's why the script type. So the 433 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: thing about the US dollar, And think about most national currencies, 434 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: is they all work the same way across the country. 435 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: These did not. These were different types of certificates, right. 436 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 1: We had payroll warrants, we had credit vouchers, tax anticipation notes. 437 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: They worked in different ways, you know what I mean. 438 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: One thing was a dollar and it was always going 439 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 1: to be a dollar in your community. But the other 440 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: thing would be a dollar the first year, and then 441 00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: it would accrue value over time like a bomb. 442 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And it's so interesting because considering how many different 443 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 2: types of these there were, there's really no way to 444 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 2: figure out what the total volume and circulation was. Your 445 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 2: guests as good as mine, I mean, because they could 446 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 2: have Some of them might have really stuck around for 447 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 2: a minute and done well. Some of them might have 448 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 2: been so niche and kind of for a small community 449 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 2: that they were you never would have even heard about him. 450 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 2: Some of them were probably pretty fly by night. And 451 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 2: I bet you there were some pretty serious opportunities for 452 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 2: scam artists in this situation as well. 453 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely, a stranger comes to town, right, any 454 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 1: issues at currency? 455 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 2: I think what we do know, though, is that about 456 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 2: two hundred cities issued their own currency that's right. 457 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: We do know over two hundred issue them. But when 458 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: it gets tricky when we try to evaluate how much 459 00:26:55,240 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: value these scripts represents and then put that in dollar terms. 460 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: There's one estimate that put it at around a billion dollars, 461 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: but you know, again that's that speculation. However, if you 462 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: want to read more about this, there's a fantastic paper 463 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: called local Money in the United States during the Great 464 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,160 Speaker 1: Depression by Lauren gatch Over at the Department of Political 465 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: Science and the University of Central Oklahoma. And this paper 466 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: walks through some of the different comparative values of script 467 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: based on the type they were. You know, like a 468 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: tax anticipation script. You couldn't spend that far outside of 469 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: your town, but you could spend it as a form 470 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: of tax payment to the local government. So it was 471 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: kind of like a script with a superpower. And what 472 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: gatch finds this may be controversial to some of us. 473 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: What gatch finds is that this phenomenon proved that local 474 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: money was actually possible in a modern economy on a 475 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: wide scale. So I have to I have to ask you, Noel, 476 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 1: and let's ask our fellow listeners as well, what do 477 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: you think about this idea of local money. Do you 478 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: think it's it's a good idea. Do you think it's 479 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: just a band aid? 480 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 2: Well, I don't think it matters so much. What I 481 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 2: think what matters is what Uncle Sam thought. 482 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 3: Right? 483 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 2: Was it legal? Is this okay? Is this essentially a 484 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 2: form of counterfeiting? I would say, no, you're not making 485 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 2: copies of legal tender. You're going a step further and 486 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 2: making your own currency. And here's the thing. The federal 487 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 2: government since the Civil War had done their damndest to 488 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 2: deal with issues of private currencies, or let's call it 489 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 2: non national currencies. But most Script of the thirties was 490 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 2: not necessarily illegal. 491 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: No, it's kind of a it's tough to make it 492 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: illegal because they're not saying it's necessarily replacing. They're not 493 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: explicitly saying it's replacing the dollars. It's almost you could 494 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: make a good argument that it's just a legal document 495 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: representing an agreement between two or more people, which is 496 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: how legal documents work. So of course the Fed doesn't 497 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: like this at all, so hey, that's our job. We 498 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: do the coupons. But as you said, no, most forms 499 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: of the Script were skirting just on the side of legality. Right, 500 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: So what we end up seeing is that there was 501 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: no coordinated FED effort on Uncle Sam's part to suppress 502 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: these currencies. 503 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 2: Their job was more to make the real system work 504 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 2: better as to make people not have a reason to 505 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 2: use the scripts. 506 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: Right right, right, like now they let's just make these keepsakes. 507 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: And we have to take a note here. Currency is 508 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: a very very very powerful tool, and it's more powerful, 509 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,719 Speaker 1: I think than a lot of people imagine. Like even now, 510 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: one of the big controversies of the modern era is 511 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: the question over which currency should be used to pay 512 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: for fossil fuels. That's what we call it the petro dollar, right. 513 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: And while it may not seem like a big deal, 514 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 1: it may, you know, for many people it may sound 515 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: like money is money is money. That's not entirely true. 516 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: So it's kind of surprising that the FED did not 517 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: crack down on these local currencies. And they did the 518 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: smart thing they did just like you said, Noel, they 519 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: made the existing system more attractive and made script seem 520 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: less and less necessary. And the thing is, we can 521 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: ask did it work. 522 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 2: It depends on which way you look at It worked 523 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 2: as a band aid, as like a stopgap measure so 524 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 2: people could continue buying necessary goods and services and not 525 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 2: end up riding in the streets or having to exchange 526 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 2: glue for eggs for horseshoes and creating this bizarre web 527 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 2: of bartering that wasn't sustainable. So, yeah, I would say 528 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 2: it worked as far as that is concerned. 529 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say I would say it worked on 530 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 1: a better than nothing level totally, you know what I mean. 531 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: So we quickly learned some rules here that that guide us. 532 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: So some were more successful than others. But here are 533 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: the basic rules we found. Script no matter what it was, 534 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: became less acceptable if you printed too much of it 535 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: or if the backing or basis for redemption became invalid. 536 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: So if somebody came back at that Macosta County in Michigan, 537 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: and pardon me if I'm mispronouncing that, by the way, 538 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: if someone came back to that county in Michigan and 539 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: they had their dollar and it was not accepted or 540 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: it wasn't given the bait the value that it was 541 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: agreed to have, then all of those all of those 542 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: dollars seem worth a little bit less because people can't 543 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: trust it, and you know, what's interesting is that, going 544 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: back to that article you mentioned earlier, the scripts that 545 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 1: seemed to work best were either the ones on the 546 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: absolute smallest scale or the ones that could be used 547 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: as payment for municipal fees or tax That's the one 548 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: that gets the closest to being illegal. That is kind 549 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: of like paying your your DMV fee or your driver's 550 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: license fee or something in a currency that you made up. 551 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 2: That's right, that's not gonna fly. I don't know. Uncle 552 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 2: Sam's company store does not accept this. No, no, we do. 553 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 2: I kind of know the ending for this story. That's 554 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 2: a hard kind of this might be interesting. 555 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: So let's call these scripts an economic experiment. Uncle Sam's 556 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: plan works, and when the conditions that lead to the 557 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: script go away and dissipate, the script itself disappears. These 558 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: alternative currencies go the way of the dodo, as we 559 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: so often say. 560 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 2: Or did they yeah, Because apparently throughout the thirties, the 561 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 2: small US town of Tanino, Washington was dealing with the 562 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 2: Great Depression just like everywhere else, but their problems didn't 563 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 2: really get stitched up in the same way that everyone 564 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 2: else's did because they only had one bank, the Citizens 565 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 2: Bank of Tanino and it closed completely after it ran 566 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 2: out of cash. So the bank was one of just 567 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 2: over a thousand that closed in the fourth quarter of 568 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 2: nineteen thirty one. But for Tanino, which is a very 569 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 2: very small how population wise, they only had this one bank. 570 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 2: Things were really, really rough. So in order to deal 571 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 2: with this cash issue, the Thurston County Independent newspaper publisher 572 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 2: Don Major asked the city council to allow him to 573 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:21,760 Speaker 2: start facilitating a currency within the community. And they still 574 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 2: print those today, these little iou slips. And by the 575 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 2: time they had more or less temporarily as we mentioned, 576 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:29,959 Speaker 2: you know, the way these things tended to go solve 577 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 2: the problem. There was kind of a demand for these, 578 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 2: and this guy Major was able to turn this monetary 579 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,479 Speaker 2: you know, catastrophe into a real successful publicity stunt. Right. 580 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: So, even after what we called the depression and finally abated, 581 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 1: the town of Tinino continued printing wooden money is souvenirs 582 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: and commemorative bills, usually annually because people loved collecting them, 583 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. This even went on in 584 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties. The original press, as far as we 585 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: can find, is still in operation. It gets fired up 586 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: at least once a year to make souvenirs for their 587 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: annual Oregon Trail Days celebration, which I definitely want to 588 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 1: go to. And you can even buy pieces of this 589 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: wooden currency or script at local businesses today, such as 590 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: the famous Scotti Bees cafe. And here's the thing in 591 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: the town. They can still function as money. 592 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,800 Speaker 2: That's right, and it does, but it's also yeah, you 593 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 2: know it. Admittedly it's a little bit more of a 594 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 2: kitchy kind of fun thing that they're doing to kind 595 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 2: of keep the past alive or whatever, but they do 596 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,479 Speaker 2: accept it. An analog to this that I have seen 597 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 2: is a lot of local farmers' markets here in Georgia 598 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 2: will issue these wooden tokens that you can exchange if 599 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 2: you have what's called snap or it's like basically the 600 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 2: yeah equivalent of stamps. You can take your EBT card 601 00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 2: and swipe it and then they will give you these 602 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 2: tons that are two dollars to one dollar of investment 603 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 2: from your EBT. So the idea is they give you 604 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 2: double your money for using these tokens and your shopping locally. 605 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 2: So it's but at the end of the day, you 606 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 2: still exchange these tokens at the farmer's market instead of money, right. 607 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 1: And there are still local or community currencies around today, 608 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: and it's funny because they haven't. I guess they have 609 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: sort of gone away, but they've never really disappeared. And 610 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: the rise of our digital information networks over the past 611 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: few decades has also given rise to purely non physical 612 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:46,720 Speaker 1: digital currencies like you know, Casey and I have always 613 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 1: I've always talked about years and years and years ago 614 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: when we were we were at our old office and 615 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: bikehead deciding whether or not bitcoin would be a fad. 616 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 2: Do you remember that, Casey, I remember that very clearly, 617 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,879 Speaker 2: and I remember investing in bitcoin, and I remember selling 618 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 2: at the wrong. 619 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: Point Casey on the case, me too, man. And for now, 620 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:17,239 Speaker 1: as we record this, if you are listening hundreds or 621 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: thousands of years in the future, right to us and 622 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 1: let us know if the US dollar has stuck around 623 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: or if it is a fad, and if so, what 624 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 1: has replaced it. 625 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 2: It may take a while. 626 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: For someone to answer, it may not be us, but 627 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: hopefully you'll get a reply. That'd be cool if the 628 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: show is around for centuries. 629 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 2: Oh man, yeah, I would love that. I mean, at 630 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 2: least keep us in you know, script script form, script form. Yeah. 631 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 2: You can write us at Ridiculous at iHeartRadio dot com. 632 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,719 Speaker 2: Or you can join our Facebook group at Ridiculous Historians, 633 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 2: where you can chat with all your other Ridiculous history 634 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,760 Speaker 2: pals and exchange memes and barbs, and you know, debate 635 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 2: things that we talked about, the issues. You can call 636 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 2: us out on mistakes we made. That's fine. Whatever you 637 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 2: want to do, it's there for you to do it. 638 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: You can also find us personally on Instagram. Learn about 639 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,280 Speaker 1: my various misadventures getting kicked into and kicked out of cities, regions, 640 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: and countries at Ben Bollen. 641 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 2: You can check me out at Embryonic Insider. It's mainly 642 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 2: pictures of my kid doing the dab, going to farmers' markets, 643 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 2: little travel stuff here and there. I like to take 644 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:24,799 Speaker 2: a lot of weird pictures with no people in it. 645 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 2: My mom says that makes them boring, but I have 646 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 2: a good time with it. 647 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 1: Thank you to Casey Pegram, our super producer. Thank you 648 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:36,279 Speaker 1: to Alex Williams who composed our track. Thanks to everybody 649 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 1: who has written into us or written to their fellow 650 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: listeners on the Facebook page. And Hey Noel, thank you 651 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:44,760 Speaker 1: for being a friend. 652 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,879 Speaker 2: Hey Man, travel down that road and back again, hand 653 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 2: in hand. You're a friend in him. I don't know, 654 00:38:49,920 --> 00:39:02,879 Speaker 2: see you next time. Books. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 655 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 656 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:07,280 Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.