1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: All the media. Welcome to Klappened Here, a podcast that 2 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: is once again about Palestine. Hopefully you listen to yesterday's 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: episode of this. One's going to be a little bit 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: out of sorts, but yeah, we are continuing and finishing 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: up a conversation about Israel and setular colonialism. So strap 6 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: in and enjoy the show. If you were trying to 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: generate in a lab a place where you could turn 8 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: a bunch of people into fascists, it would be it 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: would be these settlements. This has a bunch of downstream 10 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: political effects, right. One of them is that, okay, so 11 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: whose lands are you taking here? 12 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 2: Right? 13 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: The answer here is it's a lot of Palestinian farmers. 14 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: And you know, once you kick farmers off their land, 15 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: they can't be farmers anymore. And this leaves them with 16 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: two choices. One slee Palestine altogether. And this is really 17 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: really hard. We talked about it on this show. It 18 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: is really really difficult to get out or your other 19 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: option is to become cheap labor for Israeli capitalists. And 20 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: this is another another part of the sort of self 21 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: reinforcing dynamic of these engines, right, is like, you know, 22 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: if if you're dealing with the population that doesn't have 23 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: the means to support themselves except for you know, these 24 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: these Israeli like work passes that they like, you know, 25 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: like bestow upon the benited population. Like it's it makes 26 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: it incredibly hard for there to be any sort of 27 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: physicist movement. And you know the other thing that David 28 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: Grea was pointing out that you know, he was, I 29 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: think like ahead of the curve on in a lot 30 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: of ways. Is I mean, this has been happening for 31 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 1: a long time, but the Israeli like electoral left is 32 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: just gone. Israelly Labor, which is like the like Israeli 33 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: Labor is the party that built Israel right, Like it 34 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: was Israeli Labor guys who like pulled together this the 35 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: entire Zionist coalition and like turned them in to the 36 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: engine that could actually win the war. In forty eight, 37 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: Labor was outperformed by fucking Handash in the most recent election. 38 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: This has happened several times. Hadash is an alliance of 39 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: the Israeli communists and like left Arab nationalists. And when 40 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 1: I say they do better, and it's not to say 41 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: that Hadash is doing well, but like you know, they're 42 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 1: both pulling at like four percent right, and Israeli labor 43 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: again like has ruled is ruled Israel for like a 44 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: like a very magnificant part of his history. They are 45 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: now nothing. Right, there's four percent of the vote. They 46 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: have the same amount of vote as the oldest as 47 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: the Israeli like and specifically I should mention this is 48 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: this is the this is the like anti occupation communists. 49 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: This is another one of the sort of dynamics of 50 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: settlerism that you know, this is sort of is universally true, right, 51 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: this is It's not just Israel where a bunch of 52 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: people who are normally leftist, a bunch of people who 53 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: like you know, fought in their own liberation struggles and 54 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: get turned into just like absolutely fanatical right wingers. There 55 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: are an enormous number of United Irishmen, rebels from the 56 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: Rebellion of eighteen seventy eight in Ireland who go to 57 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: the US and you know, wind up a bunch of 58 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: these people wind up in the American Army to a 59 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: bunch of these people wind up like I mean, I 60 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: guess it's technically not the Indian Wars, but like a 61 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: lot of these people wind up like fighting the Creeks 62 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: in eighteen twelve. These people could become the front line 63 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: of settler expansion in the US. And this this happens 64 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 1: again with like German and French like liberals and socialists 65 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: who flee the crushing of the eighteen forty eight revolutions. 66 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: It actually almost happened to Marx. He wound up not 67 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: going to the US. But there's a lot of settlers, 68 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of like of European socialists who 69 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: come to the US and see all of this land 70 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: and they go, oh shit, we can solve like we 71 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: can solve the problems of the old world. But it 72 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: is taking this land. 73 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, having our little like k utopian socialist settlements. Was 74 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 2: it Owens or Jones or someone they had. 75 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: These like, yeah, they. 76 00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 2: Quake k utopian sort of settlement towns in someone else's land. Yeah. 77 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: Well, and that's one of the ways has happened. There 78 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: there are other ways this happens too, where it's just people, 79 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: you know, it's not it's not even always utopian communities. 80 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: People a lot of and and this this is also 81 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: so okay. There are people who come over from the 82 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: eighteen forty eight revolutions who like, you know, like August 83 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: Van Willich is probably the most famous one, Like he's 84 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: he's a communist who ends up like fighting for the 85 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: union and then notably not fighting in the Indian Wars after. 86 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: But you know, a lot of these people they come 87 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 1: to the US and they're like, okay, well, so they're 88 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: like the fundamental contradiction of capitalism or whatever is that, 89 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: like you know, people like people, people are forced to 90 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 1: become like, as they would literally call it, like the 91 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: wage slaves of capital, right, And so these people take 92 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: a bunch of just incredibly bizarre stances, Like one they're 93 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: they're they're they're against the abolition of slavery because they 94 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: they're like, oh, well, if you free the slaves, these 95 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 1: people are going to compete with us for wage labor. 96 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: So either either they're pro slavery or they're like slavery 97 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: the like ending slavery is the thing they can only 98 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: happen with the end of capitalism, so we don't care 99 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 1: about it. Or and this is a very common thing 100 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: that this is one of them. This is i think 101 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 1: much closer to the Israeli dynamic. Is these people become 102 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: convinced that like the you know, The problem with Europe, 103 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: right is that you know, Europe is entirely ruled by 104 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: either feudalist or like feudal bearerans or capitalist right and 105 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: so there's no way for someone to like make like 106 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: make themselves in the world, right, there there's no way 107 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: for them to be independent like of the capitalist class. 108 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 1: But in but in the US there is because all 109 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: you have to do is, you know, instead of being 110 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: part of the like the industrial proletariat or whatever and 111 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: getting like crushed by the Buddha capital, you can just 112 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: go become a settler farmer. And this is this is 113 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: one of the defining ideologies of the US, Like Abraham 114 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: Lincoln talks about this, like the thing that makes the 115 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: US different from Europe is that like, yeah, you can 116 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: you can go be a settler, you can get your 117 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 1: own land. And this is something you can also trace 118 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: back to the foundation of Israel. Israel is created you know, 119 00:05:58,279 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: there are there are there are right wings Zionists, right, 120 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: but it's also created by liberal socialist communists and even 121 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: anarchists who fought the span a civil war who go 122 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: to Israel become Zionists, are armed by Stalin and these 123 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: people create like you know, these are the people who 124 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: do the knapa. 125 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, lots of people were also, there were Jewish I 126 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 2: guess socialists is probably the best term for them who 127 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 2: would come to fight in Spain and then returned to it. Yeah, 128 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 2: people interested. Ranan Reign has done a really good paper 129 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 2: about some with people in international brigades. So not all 130 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: of them turned out to do the knakpa. To be clear, yes, 131 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 2: something some of them were. It's actually also it's actually 132 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 2: really sad to follow the plight of It's a slight divergence, 133 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 2: I guess. But Jewish people who had fled programs in 134 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: the early twentieth century grown up largely in New York 135 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 2: an extremely impoverished neighborhoods, fought facism in Spain, came home, 136 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 2: fought fatuism again in the rest of Europe after like 137 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 2: pointing at it in nineteen thirty five and going bad, 138 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 2: and in America going now dog were good, and then 139 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:06,839 Speaker 2: in nineteen forty one going who could have foreseen this? 140 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 2: And then they come in the meantime they see Stalin 141 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 2: signing a pact with fascism, right, and they feel horribly 142 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 2: betrayed and have to have to deal with either leaving 143 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 2: the Communist Party or working out in their own head, 144 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: how the fuck the people who kill their friends and 145 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 2: now their friends and then they come home after the war, 146 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 2: they're blacklisted under McCarthy and they see the nuck but happening, 147 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 2: you know, like later on, and they they're disgusted, right 148 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: like they everything that, like every sort of like identity 149 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 2: in group that they've had, they feel has turned against 150 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: the things that they think are morally right. And they 151 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 2: have these really difficult lives despite like pursuing what most 152 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 2: of us would agree as in moral good throughout their lives. 153 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, being being consistently world fucking sucks and that is. 154 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 2: A yeah, Terrald will leave you behind. 155 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, it was a fucking awful time to do that. 156 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Okay, we should take another ad break and. 157 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 2: Then yeah, adverts are not consistently Marl who very unlikely. 158 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: And we are back. So we've been talking about the 159 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: capacity of settlements to change someone's politics, right, So it's 160 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: you know, it's as these labs of consciousness that produce 161 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 1: certain kinds of right wing politics and mentalities and you know, 162 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: and produce right wing soldiers, right, But the settlements also 163 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: do other things. And one of those things that they do. 164 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: Is the settlements are a big reason, you know, if 165 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: you were invested in the peace process, like this is 166 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: a big reason why the peace process failed was that 167 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: the settlers never had any intentions of abiding by any 168 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 1: of the treaties that were being signed by the Israelis. Right, 169 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: And this is something that is true transhistorically, right. This 170 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: is a dynamic you see in American history too. The 171 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: US science like hundreds of treaties with like like just 172 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: incredible numbers and indigenous nations. And do you know how 173 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: many of those trees I end up upholding. 174 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's none. 175 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, I mean you can look at 176 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, right, and you know the Supreme Court 177 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: will uphold laws from like seventeen ninety five, right, Yeah. 178 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: The one kind of law they will not uphold is 179 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: their treaty obligations, at which in which case they will 180 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: go literally they will just go, well, we are obligated 181 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 1: to do this under treaty, but it is too hard, 182 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: so fuck you. 183 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, they'll go previous to that and 184 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: treat site the fucking Doctrine of Discovery or the Treaty 185 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: of Cso yeah, good old Rethpeed against the liberal hero. Yeah. 186 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: And so you can look at this from sort of 187 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: two perspectives, right, you can look at this from this 188 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: perspective of the state, and you can look at it 189 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: from the respective of the settlers. And you know, I mean, 190 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: and I think I think I think there's a there's 191 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: a third view that's kind of sees them both as 192 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: an extension of the same thing, which is what we're 193 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: gonna sort of come to. But you know, you can 194 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 1: you can look at this treaty stuff, and you can 195 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: look at the fact that you know, both the settlers 196 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: and the Israeli governments like sign the Oslo Accords fully 197 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: intending to do more settlements, right, And this is this 198 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: is something that that like the Palestinians are watching, right, 199 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: Like if you're a Palasidian, like you are watching these 200 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 1: peace accords get signed, and then you are watching the 201 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: Israelis fucking bulldozing your house. Yeah, and and this is 202 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: this is this is a thing in the US too, right. 203 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: It's like everyone who signs a treaty get like, like 204 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: all of the nation to sign treaties get a get 205 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: a watch as the US is like oh well, actually, 206 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: like no, we never had any intention of like fulfilling this, 207 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: like no, We're just gonna keep exterminating you and like 208 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: chasing the sort of like like shattered remnants of your 209 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: tribes like literally across the entire fucking continents. And you know, 210 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: so so you can look at this from the from 211 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: the perspective of the state, and you know, like like 212 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: dealing dealing with the American state, Like it is well 213 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: known by every day and every race that has ever 214 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: had to deal with them that the white man is 215 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: duplicitous in a state is built on lies, and that 216 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: is only kind of a joke. Like everyone who fucking 217 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: deals with the Americans just like what the fuck is 218 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: wrong with these people? Like do you like do people 219 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: like not understand what an agreement is? 220 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 2: Like what you know, Yeah, this is something that like 221 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 2: I know, if you travel abroad and you work in 222 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 2: places where American forces have been nine times out of ten, 223 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 2: someone will sit you down in a tea house or 224 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 2: a coffee house and unbidden just be like what the 225 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 2: fuck is wrong with these people? Like like why do 226 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 2: they treat us like that? Like we fucking did everything 227 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 2: you asked and then you fucking abandoned us or killed us, 228 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: like like yeah, like everyone, and of course Sprain does 229 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 2: it too. I'm not saying like America spectrum, but fuck me, 230 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 2: America in the last two hundred years is really setting 231 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 2: you precedent for just like Jane has faced bullshit. 232 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, and and and this, and it 233 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,839 Speaker 1: is particularly bad when you're dealing with when you're dealing 234 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: with settlers, because you know, one of the one of 235 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: the things about the state is that the arc of 236 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: the state policy and settler colonies always bends towards injustice 237 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 1: in general, and in particular the thing it always bends 238 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: towards land seizures. It seeks to expand its base of power, 239 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: it's territorial base in its economy, which leads it to 240 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: push as far as it possibly can towards dispossessing the 241 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: indigenous population. Now, this is also the interest of settlers, 242 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: who act as a kind of extension of the state 243 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: that goes beyond its normal capacity to do what it 244 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:25,599 Speaker 1: wants to do. And you know, in the US, the 245 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: human manifestation of this is Andrew Jackson, who is a 246 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: man who completely illegally on multiple occasions, just like conquered 247 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: Florida and you know, conquered Florida specifically. And this is 248 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: one of the like a couple of things. This is 249 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: what I have. I have a very good friend who 250 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: talks about this a lot because they're they've they've been 251 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: studying this period immensely. You're probably not listening, but love you, Yeah, 252 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: but talking about this a lot, which is that Andrew 253 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: Jackson is like big part of the reason why he's 254 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: going into Florida is specifically because he he wants to 255 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: smash these these like indigenous like black indigenous like like 256 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: Bauruin communities there. And so Jackson, you know jackx Jackson 257 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 1: like is is like under orders not to invade Florida. 258 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: He invades Florida. Anyways, you know, we we we get 259 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: were there's a very similar sort of tension between like 260 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: the courts and you know, like the courts in the 261 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: settler state that you have with the sort of international 262 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: community in Israel now, where like the courts are like 263 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 1: Andrew Jackson, you cannot do the trail of tears. Andrew 264 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: Jackson is just like fuck you, Like we're doing the 265 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,479 Speaker 1: trailer of tears. We're going We're going to do a genocide. 266 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: And you know, and the thing the thing about what 267 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: Jackson represents, right, is that Jackson is is the human 268 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: embodiment of of all of these sort of structural like 269 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: he's the human and political embodiment of all of these 270 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: structural tendencies et cetera. Colonialism. Now. And one of the 271 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: things that that's I think is interesting about this is 272 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: that there are like all of the settler states, right, 273 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: you see this in like every single one. And I'm 274 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 1: going to talk about the US because that's the one 275 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: that like other than that I know the best. Well, 276 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: I don't probably probainlays like the US better than Israel. 277 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: But there are always times when this when when this 278 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 1: the federal government tries to crack down on settlers, right, 279 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 1: this happens like repeatedly. I mean this, And this is 280 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 1: the thing even like like the British are like spend 281 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: a lot of time trying to stop the colonists from 282 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 1: like moving like from moving west. And I think that 283 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: there's a lot of people who like have come to 284 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: believe that if they if the British had won the 285 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: American Revolution, that they would have been able to stop 286 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: the settlers. And no, like they wouldn't have been able 287 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: to they would have been able to maybe they could 288 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: have delayed it by twenty years, but no, there was 289 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: there was no one has ever really been able to 290 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: stop these people. And you know, the IDF, like we 291 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: talked about this a bit earlier, right, the IDEF in 292 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: two thousand and five did pull Like when they pulled 293 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: out of Gaza, they dragged like eight thousand center settlers 294 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: with them. But again, this is this is the dynamic 295 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: to like that's incredibly familiar to anyone who studied the 296 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: history of settlers in the US, is that government at 297 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: tempts to control settler expansion inevitably fail when convented with 298 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: the the you know, the these unstoppable twin economic and 299 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: twin imperatives of the economic benefit to the settlers and 300 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: also the sort of speculator, the speculative value of these 301 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: of this new land, the land speculators. But then the 302 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: the other problem is the inevitable rise of the settlers 303 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: themselves as the political bloc, which in the US, the 304 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: man who is the champion of the settlers is Andrew Jackson. 305 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: And this is you know, and when he comes into 306 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: and when he starts taking power, when he starts getting 307 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: power in the army, you get the conquest of Florida, 308 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: and when he becomes president, you have the you have 309 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,359 Speaker 1: the trailer tears and Israel. This is this is represented 310 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: by Israel's overtly genocidal finance bitsiness at Betsiel Simotrich who 311 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: represents the Religious Zionist Party, And uh, I'll give you 312 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 1: all three guesses what those guys believe and if if 313 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: your guesses are they are unhinged settler racists and like 314 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: turbo home phobes, you're you're right on the buddy. 315 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, so he's a conspiracy theorist, like yeah, yeah, this 316 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 2: guy is unhinged. 317 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 3: They're very open with their generalcidle. 318 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, once. 319 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 3: Like there's no there's no subtlety. They're just like, let's 320 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 3: let's flatten what, let's flatten gus, let's kill them all, 321 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 3: you know what I mean. It's just like theycourage seem 322 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 3: like with a very Trumpian thing that's like encouraging the 323 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 3: hate that is there too fester. 324 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 2: It's particularly like to try to diverse again. I found 325 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 2: the fucking like, you can't support Palestinia liberation if you're 326 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 2: queer dunk that we see from like Zionist neoliberals to 327 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 2: be one of the most frustrating a like, you can 328 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 2: support what the fuck you want, Like you don't need 329 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 2: a condescending, fucking like resist mum in a minivan to 330 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 2: tell you what you can and can't believe, and like, 331 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 2: b go look up some of this guy's statements, because 332 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 2: fucking you ain't gonna find anyone who's more genocidal towards 333 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 2: queer people openly than this motherfucker. 334 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 3: I mean, Israel is like very well known for like 335 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 3: pink washing and pretending they're very progressive and supportive of yeah, 336 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 3: of queer people, when they're really not. I mean, this 337 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 3: country also is not, you know what I mean, Like 338 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 3: it's I think I think that argument is a very 339 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 3: privileged elitist one. 340 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like like yeah, just like haha, homophobia exists there, 341 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 2: it's not. It's not a win for anyone. Yeah, if 342 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 2: you want to get married to someone of the same 343 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 2: gender as you in Israel, you do it on zoom 344 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 2: in fucking Utah like that that Like, when you've been 345 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 2: outflanked to the left by Utah, you've done fucked up. 346 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 2: You don't get to wave your pride flag at anyone. 347 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 2: Fuck off. 348 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,439 Speaker 1: This is one of the sort of progressive veneer of 349 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: the Israelis has been you know, like fading because these 350 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: the people who are coming to power. And then Yahoo 351 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: in some ways was one of the sort of anger 352 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: to this. But like this, and this is the thing 353 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: you're seeing in India too, right, Like whatever you get 354 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: a far right guy, right, the thing that inevitably generates 355 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 1: is people who are even further right than they are. 356 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: And that that's that that's what these these settler people are. 357 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 1: And and the thing is, like these settler guys, you 358 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: can't cover for them, like if you if they are 359 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: on camera for longer than about thirty seconds, they start 360 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: saying stuff like just the most unhinged, like We're gonna 361 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: kill all the Palestinians. They start saying like we're gonna 362 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: kill every Arab, like they start talking about various and 363 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: varies basically like their their their platforms that they you 364 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: know they're and then this is this is so part 365 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: of the reason that there are there there's a coalition 366 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 1: of of these like of these like far right settler 367 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: parties that are now backing net and Yahu. And this 368 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: is this is how net and Yahu has been able 369 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: to stay out of prison. Is that he's been able 370 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,120 Speaker 1: to back enough, he's been able to buy off enough 371 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 1: of these people that they're backing his government so he 372 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 1: can stay Prime minister, so they can't charge him. But 373 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: the the you know, the the concession basically for this 374 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: was that these like this guy was just basically just 375 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: given control of a bunch of state military power, like 376 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 1: from the army in the West Bank. It's been given 377 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: to him in his settler fanatics. And you know, like 378 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 1: especially since like the Hamas attack, like these, the government 379 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: has been handing out guns these people like candy, yes, 380 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: and they've been using it just murder Palestinians and cold 381 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: blood and you know, I mean the things people do 382 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: a lot, right, so sometimes they just kill people. The 383 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: thing they do all the time is just in the 384 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: middle of the night, like if you're if you're living 385 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: in the West Bank, like a bunch of mass guys 386 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: will show up, they will break into your home. They'll 387 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: beat the shit out of you, and they'll say like 388 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 1: if you don't leave tomorrow, will kill you. And you know, 389 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: sometimes those guys are settlers, like are just like non 390 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: like I don't know, like non military settlers, right, they're 391 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 1: like settler civilians or whatever. Sometimes those guys are just 392 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: like the army, and there's no fucking way to tell 393 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: which one like, because again it's just a bunch of 394 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: people in masks appear in the night and break into 395 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: your house and start beating the shit out of you. 396 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: And these people, these are these are the people that 397 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: increasingly the Israeli political system is being run by and 398 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 1: and you can't and it is in a similar way, 399 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: just the way that Andrew Jackson just like rips off 400 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: this mask of sort of like New England gentility that 401 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: the US had like had had under like John Adams 402 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: and uh or like John Quincy Adams and like Minroe, 403 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: well Monroe's I guess, like a like Minroe's like a 404 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: you know, like another one of these like dignified Virginia 405 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: planter guys, and like you know, those people have do 406 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: a lot of the same violence that that Jackson does. 407 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 1: But Jackson is the guy who just rips the mask 408 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 1: off and is just you know, this completely unhinged settler 409 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: mediac who like this is the guy you killed it 410 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: like just murdered a bunch of people in duels, like 411 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: you know, and these are the kind of people who 412 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: are who are coming to powered. Is there a right now? 413 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: And this is this is a self reinforcing dynamic because 414 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: the more power these people get, right, the more they're 415 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 1: able to, you know, just carry out genocides. And the 416 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 1: more genocides are able to carry out, the more of 417 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: that they're the more people that they were able to 418 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 1: push into these territories that they've taken, and the more 419 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: people they put in these territories, the more of the 420 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: more of these like settler fanatics there are. And this 421 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: this is one of the big things that is driving 422 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: the entire conflict. 423 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 3: Well, I think a good thing to remember is that 424 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 3: last year there was an election like going into twenty 425 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 3: twenty three, and uh, Israel like put into power a 426 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 3: bunch of these right wing people. Was it twenty twenty 427 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 3: three with twenty twenty two? And was in track of time. 428 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 2: He came in last he came in twenty Yeah, I 429 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 2: think he was a minute he was point to a 430 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 2: minister in twenty twenty two. But okay, sorry, the years 431 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,360 Speaker 2: a time election is real, Yeah, I remember when. 432 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 3: My point is that, like in recent history the last 433 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 3: couple of years, these extreme right wing racist people are 434 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,239 Speaker 3: in power all the all the places of power, all 435 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 3: the ministers, all the whatever the shit they're all shared. 436 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 3: They all share this ideology that like Arabs must die. 437 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 3: Basically that's like they're the point is that they are 438 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 3: superior to Arabs and then they must die, and that 439 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 3: this is a diionus place that is. 440 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: Theirs and you know, and what these people are doing 441 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: when they're in power, and this is the thing that 442 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: this is one of the things they were trying to 443 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,719 Speaker 1: do before the sort of like the current war started, 444 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,239 Speaker 1: was they were trying to annex the West Bank. This 445 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 1: is a very explicit goal. Now this is a very 446 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: explicit goal of the settler parties. They will kind of 447 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: they know it's pretty hard for them to like leally 448 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: annex it, so they will talk about like effectively annexing 449 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: it and stuff like that. They do these sort of 450 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 1: like subtle metaphors, but like, yeah, what they want to 451 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: do is to kick people out of what's called Area See, 452 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,680 Speaker 1: which is the majority of the West Bank, and they 453 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: want to kick all the like the immediate plans, I 454 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: want to kick all the people out of Area Sea 455 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: and push them into just like increasingly tiny corners of 456 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: the West Bank. And presumably because again if if you 457 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: listen to all of these people talk, right, it's that 458 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: they talk about like Jews have the right to live in. 459 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 2: In look, Judae and Samaria, Yeah yeah yeah, the West Bank, 460 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, they have a restricted right. 461 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: To live there. So and the thing is like, if 462 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: you believe that right, that means you have to kick 463 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 1: all the Penalusinians out of the West Bank entirely. Now 464 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 1: the places people have stopped. Sort of before the war, 465 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 1: the places people had stopped was like, well, okay, they 466 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: can live in Gaza. But now they're talking about, you know, 467 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,239 Speaker 1: I mean just like taking over most of like just 468 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: taking over most of Gaza and driving the Palestinians out. 469 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it doesn't have to lead like Jews have 470 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 2: a right to live in this place, doesn't have to 471 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 2: lead to thus we must genocide the people who live there, 472 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 2: right like we it like it. This is what happens 473 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 2: when we get a state that understands existence as destroying 474 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 2: anybody who is not in agreement with this right wing 475 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 2: genocidal fucking Outlook like it has been possible for people 476 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 2: of different faiths to live in different places, but. 477 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly existing. 478 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this the ideaogy that is inherent to like 479 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,959 Speaker 2: a Zionist militarized state will never allow that coexistence to happen, right, 480 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 2: because it relies on coexistence not being possible as part 481 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 2: of its narrative. For like Mia said, taking dominating and 482 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 2: appropriating that land and gaining the value from it. 483 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 3: But it's the narrative that they need to say stuff 484 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 3: like oh, all the gardens should just go to Egypt 485 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 3: or whatever. It is, like it's all part of the 486 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 3: plan to kind of just like expel them so they can. 487 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't even have to be like it's not 488 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 2: like an explicit plan that they have a whiteboard and 489 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:35,880 Speaker 2: they're like it is you know. 490 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: They do actually occasionally just write it out. Sometimes they 491 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: do actually explicitly write the plans. 492 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can say on ex dot com from time 493 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 2: to time. But it's inherent, as Mia said like several times, 494 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 2: to state and to a capitalist state that is a 495 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 2: settler colony, right, Like it's inevitable. It happened here, it's 496 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 2: happening there, It's happened all over the world. Like, it's 497 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 2: not possible to construct a capitalist state on someone else's 498 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 2: land and someone else's bodies. It doesn't do this. 499 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean and this this is this is 500 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: also one thing I wanted to emphasize too, is that 501 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: all of the shit that's happening in Palestine happened here, right. 502 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess like we, like the US, didn't 503 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: have the kind of surveillance technology in like the the 504 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: eighteen teens, right that the Israelis have now. But you know, 505 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: like we we did all this shit too, right, like 506 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: this is this is all of the land that we 507 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 1: live on. That's that's where that shit came from. There's 508 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: there's this great uh. I really love Daniel Connon the 509 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: Painted Bird. It has this great line in one of 510 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: his songs that goes because he's the one who did 511 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: the stealing and named you as the heir whose filthiness 512 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: provided you the privileges you bear. And this is this 513 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: thing in the US, right, like in Israel. You know, 514 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 1: if you're a settler on the border, right, there's no 515 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: there's no escape from what you did to take this place. 516 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: Right like you are you are looking down on the 517 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: people who you've like whose houses you've taken. Right in 518 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 1: the US, we have this sort of luxury of like, wow, 519 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: this happened a long time ago, Like we don't have 520 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 1: to sort of we don't have to see the consequences. 521 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: Of it, but we still do it right like we 522 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 2: didn't just like we're doing it at Oak Flat for 523 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 2: instance right now. Or yeah, look at how Trump fucking 524 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 2: did indigenous people during COVID, Like it's an ongoing process. 525 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: Yeah right, yeah, it's it's so much easier for Americans 526 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: to pretend that it's not happening, and you know, like no, 527 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 1: like it turns out in fact like this, this, this, 528 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: and this is where the sort of sub of colonialism 529 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,479 Speaker 1: of structure not an event stuff comes from. And it 530 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: applies to both Israel and the US because guess what. 531 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 3: Israel literally took notes for what the US did and 532 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 3: just did it, you know what I mean, Like it's 533 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 3: just the same thing in the end, Like we're the 534 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 3: bad guys, like we've always been the bad guys. 535 00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 2: Are the bad guys? Yeah, exactly. 536 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: You know, I'm Chinese, right, And this is one of 537 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: the things that has informed a lot of my sort 538 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: of perspective on Palestine, because all of the things that 539 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: are happening to Palestine is shit that was done to 540 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: us by the Japanese Empire, right, And we fought a 541 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: war to stop them, and that war was hideous. That war, 542 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: the war in China sees some of the darkest moments 543 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: in human history. And there's this tendency among I mean, 544 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 1: you know, as a tendency among both both the communists 545 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: and the nationalists want to sort of sanitize it, right, 546 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 1: They want to turn it into this sort of glorious 547 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: war for liberation, and like, yeah, like there are moments 548 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: of like, you know, glorious anti imperialist struggle, but that 549 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: war mostly was just a horror. And it's a horror 550 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: not just because of the atrocities committed by the Japanese right. 551 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: The Chinese side in that war also does things that 552 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: are unforgivable. And I'm not even talking about Hiroshima and 553 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,199 Speaker 1: Nagasaki here because you know, like we as in like 554 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: Chinese people, like we didn't do that right, like you 555 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: know Mao, like on the one hit. It is true 556 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: that when Mao found out about the nuclear eruptions, his 557 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: reaction was, way, you had a third bomb and he 558 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: didn't drop it on Tokyo. But like, you know, we 559 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 1: didn't do that, right, Like that was that was the 560 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: Americans that wasn't like that wasn't like us in China. 561 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 1: But you know, the things that I'm talking about that 562 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: the Chinese side of that war did that were just unforgivable, 563 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, I think the best example of 564 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: it is Shangkhai Shek blew up a dam on the 565 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: Yellow River, and his goal was he was trying to 566 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: you know, he was trying to flood like several provinces 567 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: to cut off the Japanese army and to like slow 568 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 1: down their troop movements, right, and he slows down the 569 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: troop movements, and he does it by killing four This 570 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: is this is this is this is the low end 571 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: estimates is that he killed four hundred thousand people. That 572 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: is a an amount of death that is unimaginable. He 573 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: killed like in a single act, he killed four hundred 574 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: thousand people. It is two Hiroshima and Nagasaki's And that's 575 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: that's the low end estimate. Right, People, people, people fighting 576 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: against Japan, people fighting against colonialism, did unforgivable crimes. And 577 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: you know, and the people of of China like never forget, 578 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: like to this day, like in the provinces where like 579 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,040 Speaker 1: where this shit happened, like Chang Kai Shek is fucking despised, 580 00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: and you know, and like when when like when the 581 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: Allies won the war and when China drove out the Japanese, right, like, 582 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: the next thing they did was they drove out Shan 583 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: Kai Shack because he was you know, because because he 584 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: had done things in that war that were so terrible 585 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: that people willing to be like fuck it, Like Mao 586 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: didn't fucking blow up a dam and kill four hundred 587 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: thousand of US, right, you know, and so like, and 588 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: this is the thing about colonial resistance is that it 589 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: is the things that people do are unforgivable. Also that 590 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: that word that Japan fought in China they killed twenty 591 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: million of US twenty million. And this is one of 592 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: these things, right where like colonialism makes monsters of us. 593 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: All suffering does not make you knowable, just makes you suffer. 594 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: And so you know, again like the are like China's 595 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: anti colonial freedom fighters right like fucking killed killed numbers 596 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: of like Chinese people that are it's just unimaginable. And 597 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: then you know, these same freedom fighters who fought the 598 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: good fighting against Japan, you know, within twenty years they're 599 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: bulldozing Moss and shing John and murdering communists in Tibet, right, 600 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 1: and they've built two, you know, after successfully repelling Japan's 601 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: attempt to turn China into a settler state, they have 602 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: made two of their own. And you know, so like 603 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: there's there's no I think the point that I'm trying 604 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: to make here is that, you know, like anti colonial 605 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: resistance is not this sort of like it doesn't look pretty. 606 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: It's a fucking horror most of the time. But you also, 607 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: you know, when when you're looking into like when you're 608 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: looking at these wars, you have to look at the 609 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: direction in which colonization is moving. And that's you know, 610 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: that's the thing that is crystal clear in Palestine, right, 611 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: is you can just look at like which in which 612 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: direction is is colonization moving? 613 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 2: Right? 614 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: Like who is taking whose houses? 615 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 2: Right? 616 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: Who is who is forcing a million people from what 617 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: population to flee their homes? Who is you know, who 618 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: has been steel he has been seizing people's land. And 619 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:54,479 Speaker 1: I think it clears up. I don't know, clears up 620 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: isn't the right word, but specifically the fact that this 621 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: is that this is active colonization, that this is this 622 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: is this the center of colonial state waging a war 623 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: against you know, people like people who are fighting against colonization. 624 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: That is the sort of that that that is the 625 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: the the underlying current of everything that happens. And and 626 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: you know, like I don't know, like people people in 627 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: anti colonial wars do things that are unforgivable and they 628 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: get you know, and like often like their own people 629 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: will eventually come for them one day. And also I don't. 630 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 3: Know, I've no one has to agree with me, It's fine, 631 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 3: But I personally really dislike when it's called a war 632 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 3: what's happening in Palestine because I just think it's the 633 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 3: clearest case of genocide I've ever seen. And like I 634 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 3: don't care how it started or whatever, I feel like 635 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 3: at this point in time, it's a genocide. Like if 636 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 3: Palestine's out of country, Palestine does not have an army, 637 00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 3: they can't no one can leave Gaza. 638 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 2: Uh. 639 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 3: I think that is the current state of what the 640 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 3: violence is going on over there. 641 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: And so yeah, just like particular, like I think I 642 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: think you're like, I think you're right about that. And 643 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: that's the thing that that's the thing that's different than 644 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: like the stuff that was happening in China was like 645 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: at least we sort of had like at least we 646 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: had a state, right, and we had armies, and our 647 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: armies got fucking stopped. But you know, we had like 648 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: we we we had actual weapons. 649 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I must have some now, But I think you're 650 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 2: to your greater point. Yeah, I think, like, well, yeah, 651 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 2: it sounds very similar to like have you read Challenges 652 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 2: Introduction to the Rest of the Earth, Yeah, like where 653 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 2: he talks about violence and the state talking in the 654 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 2: language of violence and people responding in the language in 655 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 2: which they're spoken to. I think I'm paraphrasing that relatively accurately. 656 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 2: It doesn't have to be like the violence has to 657 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 2: be good for it to be like an inevitable consequence 658 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 2: of violent colonialism, right that, like it sparks violent decolonization movements, 659 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 2: and it doesn't imply like a moral like goodness to 660 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 2: the individual acts. It's just an inevitable consequence of people 661 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 2: fighting against colonalism in the only way that that colonialism 662 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 2: kind of leaves for them, I guess, yeah. 663 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: And I think I think another part of this too 664 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: is that like just being in contact with colonial powers 665 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: makes everyone worse. Like this, this is the thing you 666 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,320 Speaker 1: see in the US with a lot of with a 667 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: lot of indigenous groups. Is that like you know, like 668 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: like bye bye bye by by the time the trail 669 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: of cheers is happening, like the Cherokee or like have 670 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: adopted chattel slavery, like like American style plantation chattel slavery, 671 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: and that fucking sucks, right It's like it being in 672 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: contact with these settler empires like brings out the worst 673 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: in everyone, mm hmm. And there's no winning from that position, right, 674 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: like the best I don't even know if it's the 675 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: best case stereo, Like I guess occasionally you get like 676 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: an Algeria where you know, they kill it off people 677 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: and like the other Algeria, like you know, the settlers 678 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: in Algeria all like went back to France. But that's 679 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 1: not an option in Israel, right like, and we wouldn't 680 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: you wouldn't want it to be a solution either, So 681 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's one of these I don't know. 682 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: It's one of the sort of dilemmas of how you 683 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: deal with a. 684 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,919 Speaker 2: Colony is that it's harder to decomnize the set of economy, right, yes, 685 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:41,560 Speaker 2: like it implies a removal of one people or in 686 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 2: other people and either of those things are in any 687 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 2: way desirable, Like and it's so hard to see like 688 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 2: a path to a peaceful coexistence now because all we 689 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 2: see is like the entire world ratcheting the fucking like 690 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 2: violence level up, Like, yeah, Israel carrying out genocidal violence 691 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 2: in Gaza is not the way we reach a way 692 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 2: for people to like children to grow up without fucking 693 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 2: fearing if the sky is going to kill them in Gaza, right, 694 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:22,919 Speaker 2: like this will happen for generations to come because you've 695 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 2: emotionally scarred field children. 696 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 3: Well, how would you. I think it's a very human 697 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 3: response if anything, Like I I don't think we have 698 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 3: the the right to judge how someone that has been 699 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 3: through that hell how they respond because it's I don't know, 700 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,200 Speaker 3: we haven't lived their nightmare. It's just a nightmare. 701 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 2: And like it's not like like there it's not like 702 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 2: there haven't been attempts at non violent resistance in Gaza, 703 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,839 Speaker 2: because they have. And look what fucking happened like. 704 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,799 Speaker 1: That there was a big one like like three or 705 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: four years ago. 706 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, like you know, they like the fucking crass and 707 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 2: stein take the why can't they all disorganized? The arch 708 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,120 Speaker 2: in the water holding Kansas and come by they fucking 709 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 2: like I tried to do that, but like, yeah, people 710 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,399 Speaker 2: people kept killing them. Like I say this every time 711 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 2: we talk about guards, but say again, Like when we 712 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 2: were talking to the PK guys of guys and I've 713 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,359 Speaker 2: known them for a few years, Like one of them 714 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 2: was telling me about how they used to do sleepover 715 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 2: camps for kids there so the kids could learn parkour 716 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,719 Speaker 2: and not have to pay for the travel and like 717 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 2: you know, take their time and risk to travel, so 718 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 2: they do sleep over camps in the summertime. And he 719 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 2: was explained to me like it was the most normal 720 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 2: thing in the world that the six eight year old 721 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 2: children would wake up at night with night terror screaming 722 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 2: because they thought they were being bombed, because they are 723 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 2: having like a flashback from being bombed, I guess, And 724 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,359 Speaker 2: like that's something I recognized from from PTSD, from from 725 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 2: you know, other texts, but like it really fucks me 726 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 2: up that an eight year old child is like we 727 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 2: can't expect these people to like develop into come by 728 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,800 Speaker 2: us singing like peace activists, like that they they have 729 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 2: taken on massive amounts of trawl where they've seen the 730 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 2: neighbors and families die, Like it doesn't mean that we 731 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 2: have to be like, oh, well, like violence is going 732 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 2: to happen like that we should do everything we can 733 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 2: to make a world where like people aren't killing and 734 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 2: dying there because it will always result in more of 735 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:37,759 Speaker 2: the least empowered people dying. But it's something that I 736 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 2: think a lot of us are so far detached from 737 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 2: that I think is as like, you know, if you 738 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 2: lived a whole lot in the United States relative safety 739 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,879 Speaker 2: and prosperity, it's it's hard for you to understand, I. 740 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 1: Think, yeah, And I mean like this is a like 741 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: gaza is a place where it reiins body parts, Like 742 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: that's what happens when it is really bomb goes off, 743 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 1: It rains body parts, and like that is a. 744 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 2: I don't know, like. 745 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: The kind of person who has to grow up with 746 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,360 Speaker 1: that is just not going to be the same as 747 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: like even people who have been through a lot of 748 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 1: like really messed up stuff, Like it's not going to 749 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: be the same as like experiencing that. 750 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, even if you like I have visited was to 751 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 2: report on them, but then I get to go home 752 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,080 Speaker 2: and be safe. And sometimes that juxtaposition is hard, and 753 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 2: it takes me a long time to not be afraid 754 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 2: of the sky or a park car is going to 755 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 2: kill me. But I'm home and I'm safe, and once 756 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 2: I can adjust to that, then I can I can 757 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 2: get on. You know, change things like that change you, 758 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 2: but you continue with your life. But if you're never 759 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 2: home and you're never so or your home is never safe, 760 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 2: that's something I can't understand, right, That's something that I 761 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 2: haven't experienced, and very very few of us probably. 762 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 3: Have, a lot of doctors have said that all the 763 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 3: child I Gaza, they haven't they can't quality, they can't 764 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 3: be quantified of having experienced PTSD because they haven't reached 765 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 3: the post part yet, Like they're still they're like in 766 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,479 Speaker 3: a perpetual state of PTSD because that's just how they 767 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:15,879 Speaker 3: their entire lives have been. Most of them have never 768 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:20,879 Speaker 3: known life outside of the blockade. So it's I don't know. 769 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean I think I think that's a 770 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 1: good place to end of. Just you know, this is 771 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: what this is what this this is what the reality 772 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,399 Speaker 1: and the eternal president of cetera colonialism is right, and 773 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,320 Speaker 1: you know, this is one of these things where in 774 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: a lot of weird ways, like, like there are ways 775 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 1: in which we like people like if you live in 776 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,879 Speaker 1: the US, if you like even the subset the UK, 777 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 1: like you are probably in a like maybe a better 778 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,200 Speaker 1: position to actually stop this than anyone who lives in 779 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: palestign is. So yeah, yeah, this is but and and 780 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: the problem is if we don't right the self, the 781 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: mutually self reinforcing dynamics of Seidler colonialism are just going 782 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 1: to keep like carrying on and keep spiraling on. And 783 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,719 Speaker 1: this is going to go on until everyone is dead 784 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: or everyone is gone. 785 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, even if you can't stop it, Like I sent 786 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 2: the video. I'm sure you guys saw the video of 787 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,720 Speaker 2: the Jewish Wis of Peace people in the Grand Central Terminal, 788 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 2: New York, And I said that to the palest in 789 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,439 Speaker 2: your journalistic because they're like, god, this is great to see. 790 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 2: And if something we spoke about the interview too, how 791 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 2: like it makes a meaningfully difference to someone's state of 792 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 2: mind to see solidarity even if like you know, we 793 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 2: can get in the streets and we can say something 794 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 2: and maybe that will make a difference. Maybe it won't, 795 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 2: but like, at least if it makes someone understand that 796 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,320 Speaker 2: you're kind of standing with them in a moment of darkness, 797 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,680 Speaker 2: and maybe that helps them in a way. 798 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:56,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think when when a whole population is not 799 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 3: able to share what they're going through, their journalist are 800 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,520 Speaker 3: killed when the internet is out, and the one thing 801 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,399 Speaker 3: they're saying is like, please don't stop talking about this. 802 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 3: I think that's the easiest thing that we can do. 803 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, and hopefully maybe this would impel us to like 804 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,760 Speaker 2: as Miya said at the start, right, this keeps fucking happening, 805 00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 2: and like, as ethnic cleansings go, this one's got more 806 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,080 Speaker 2: coverage than most in the US, And like I would 807 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,760 Speaker 2: encourage you to look at what you're seeing in Gaza 808 00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:30,319 Speaker 2: and understand how inhuman and unemangeable it is. And like 809 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 2: maybe follow that shouldn't happen anywhere. It shouldn't happen into Gray, 810 00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 2: and it shouldn't happen in Kurdistan, it shouldn't happen to 811 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:42,359 Speaker 2: the ra hinge of people, and like, yeah, try try 812 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 2: and extend that. It's not to scold people, like if 813 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 2: you weren't in the streets in twenty seventeen, fuck you, 814 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 2: Like it's it's just to say that, like we've all 815 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,680 Speaker 2: had a window opened, even with every fucking attempt to 816 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 2: shut that window, right, like but cutting off the internet 817 00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 2: to Gaza, et cetera. This has been the most photographed 818 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 2: ethnic cleansing, whatever you want to call it, in probably 819 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,480 Speaker 2: in human history. We're seeing more of it than we've 820 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 2: en't seen before, a lot of it in certain ways 821 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,880 Speaker 2: or fucking footage and video games, past office, real life. 822 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,280 Speaker 2: But we're still seeing it, and we're still bearing witness 823 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 2: to it to a limited degree. Right We're not seeing 824 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:21,640 Speaker 2: it in the sense people seeing it firsthand. And I'd 825 00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 2: encourage people to like remember this moment and the shock 826 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:30,400 Speaker 2: and the terrible things that you felt, and like to 827 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,320 Speaker 2: not forget that next time you hear about something happening, because, 828 00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,440 Speaker 2: like anywhere has happened, it's a tragedy. In anywhere it happens, 829 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 2: we should do everything we can to stop it. 830 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,440 Speaker 1: It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media. 831 00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 832 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,480 Speaker 3: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 833 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 834 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 3: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 835 00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,720 Speaker 3: monthly at cool Zone Media dot com sources. Thanks for listening,