1 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: You're listening to Modern Rules, a production of MSNBC and 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: I heart radio. There's a woman I think about all 3 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: the time. I met her two years ago when we 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: were on vacation at a dude ranch and upstate New York. 5 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: She was a waitress and the owner of the restaurant 6 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: came and said, UM, we have a waitress here and 7 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: she'd love to talk to you. So I said great, 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: So she came over. She said, I see you on 9 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: the news, I see you on TV. I want to 10 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: tell you I love the President. I love him because 11 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: he loves me. He came to see me. You you 12 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: think I'm white trash. And she goes this restaurant where 13 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 1: I work at. They give me enough hours that I 14 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: can't get a second job, but they don't give me 15 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: enough hours to get healthcare. I'm a mom. I have 16 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: two single daughters. Their kids have to go to school 17 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 1: up here. We have the worst public schools with no 18 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: special services. Both of my grandchildren need them. So all 19 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: I have is the bureaucracy in town, and nobody answers 20 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: the phone own. But the president he came up here, 21 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: he had a rally and I said, but what did 22 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: he offer you? In that rally, what were the policies, 23 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: And she goes, I don't know very much about policies, 24 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: but I know somebody who's now living in the White 25 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: House came and talked to us. And I can't get 26 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: anybody at social services to even answer the phone. And 27 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: she said, where you live, you have charities that you 28 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: raise money for, you know, the Boys Club, the Girls Club. 29 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: And I said yes, because I do. And she goes, 30 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: up here, we don't have any of that, And then 31 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: she laid it out. She said, here's the deal. My 32 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: grandchildren aren't washing up on shore in a boat, so 33 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: my story is not ugly enough to be on the 34 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: cover of your newspaper. But look at me. I'm not 35 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: pretty enough to go to your house for dinner. And 36 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: here's the thing. On a whole lot of levels, she's right. 37 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: Maybe we don't see her, and maybe we don't talk 38 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: about her, but what she's asking for is compassion for her. 39 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: We are living in complicated time. We've never been able 40 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: to communicate so easily, yet dialogue itself is dying. The 41 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 1: line between what one can and cannot say is absolutely clouded. 42 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: We are losing friends and cutting off family members over 43 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,080 Speaker 1: things that should make us better and smarter over progress. 44 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: Progress is uncomfortable. Hence our latest endeavor, the Modern Rules Podcast. 45 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: What we'd like to say are compelling conversations during these 46 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: culturally complicated times, and they're not. Actually. I'm Stephanie Rule, 47 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: MSNBC anchor and NBC News correspondent, and this is Modern Rules. 48 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: In this season of Modern Rules, I'm going to be 49 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: spending time unpacking the harriest conversations from privilege to political correctness, 50 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,920 Speaker 1: to try and figure out how we can navigate this 51 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: changing world and break through to actually talk with and 52 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: learn from the people who disagree with us, and maybe 53 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: just maybe learn something along the way. Together on Modern Rules, 54 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 1: we're going to get into this idea of political correctness. 55 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: Lots of well intentioned people say things that come across offensive. 56 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,119 Speaker 1: Some of those people need to tighten up their game. 57 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: But on the other hand, where some people are expecting 58 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 1: us to be so sensitive to so many groups, the 59 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: outcome is others are shutting down and leaving the conversation. I, 60 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: for one, believe the more people in the conversation the better. 61 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: So my goal is to try to find some progress. 62 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: So I recruited three tour guides as I try to 63 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: make my way through this cultural mind field, head of 64 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: the Pulitzer Organization, and Dana Kennedy Quest Love and Michaelean Black, 65 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: my first guest author and journalist Dana Kennedy, who is 66 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: no stranger to speaking her mind. So I started the 67 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 1: conversation by talking about that waitress. So two years ago, 68 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: Andy and I and the kids were an upstate New 69 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: York and we met a waitress who said, I want 70 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: to talk to you, and I want to tell you 71 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,279 Speaker 1: what I love President Trump. And I said, sure. Now, 72 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: that woman is a forgotten American who had everything she 73 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: said had tons of racist overtones in it. She goes 74 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 1: up here in upstate New York, we don't have the 75 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: after school programs and all the charities that you raise 76 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: money for that the sisters in places like New York 77 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: City have nobody cares about us, and she said, the 78 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: President cares about me, and she said the sisters. So 79 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: it was clearly a racial judgment. And so what do 80 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: we do about that person? And as a black successful 81 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 1: woman who grew up in Kentucky and has lived a 82 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: successful life in New York City, what do we do 83 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: about that? Number One, I don't think she gets a 84 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: past because she's racist. That's just not acceptable because the 85 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 1: air quote sisters she speaks of have the same issues 86 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: and they're more like her than she realizes. That's number one. Two. 87 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: I'd love to go back to her today and see 88 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: how that work out for you. Like this sense that 89 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: someone is coming into a new administration riding in on 90 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: a white horse and was going to save her, I 91 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: will bet you cash money she would tell you that 92 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: didn't happen. It's not gonna happen, And so it's more 93 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 1: of a pipe dream, I think than anything else. The 94 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: other thing about that is familiarity breaths respect and ultimately 95 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: friendship and then love, or it gives us the best 96 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: chance at it. So I've had people say to me, 97 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: my whole life mostly has it released to journalists, journalists 98 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: can't be trusted journalists or whatever. Long before the whole 99 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,919 Speaker 1: enemy of the people stick which I believe it is 100 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 1: a stick came into play, but oh but not you, 101 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: Or if someone says something about black people and says 102 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 1: in front of me, but not you. So once you're 103 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: sitting across from someone, um, everything changes and once the 104 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: person realizes, wow, this person doesn't hate me. You know. 105 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: Actually they actually they're human just like I am, and 106 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 1: they have the same concerns about their kids that I do. 107 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: All of that falls away one person at a time. 108 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: But we're sitting across from each other less and less, 109 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: and that's my fear, Dana. I think that's the answer, though, 110 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,159 Speaker 1: is that we have to find ways to put each 111 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: other in the same room. I live in two different worlds, 112 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: I always say, and I'm often out of context. If 113 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: I'm walking around, you know, doing the grocery shopping in 114 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: my sweats on the weekend, the assumption is one thing 115 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: about me. I'm that sister that she's talking about, right, 116 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: But the minute somebody either hears me speak or learns 117 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: about my career, suddenly I'm everyone's best friend. Oh my god, 118 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: you're so quote unquote articulate. You're so smart, um, you're 119 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: so interesting, you're so strong. I'm grateful that people see 120 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: me in that context at times, to the extent that 121 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: I am the things I was those things when I 122 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: was walking around my sweats and you didn't know who 123 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: I was. I love that you brought up the word articulate, 124 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: because it is this hot button word and I hear 125 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: arguments actually on both sides. So explain to me. And 126 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: I want this to be the safest place. I want 127 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: you to explain to me what's wrong with what's wrong 128 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: with it? Because here's my fear. I hear from people 129 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: who say, I'm trying to say something nice, I'm trying 130 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: to call someone articulate, And now I've been at the 131 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: same time, why do you assume it's on the sense? 132 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: So if I go in anywhere, I happen to meet 133 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: with the bank president or CEO of a company, and 134 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: we have a meeting, and at the end, imagine me, uh, 135 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: sitting there with a let's just make this up, uh, 136 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: sixty two year old white man who went to Harvard, 137 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: and I wouldn't shook his hands, said my god, you're articulate. 138 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: You look at me like I've lost my mind. Why 139 00:07:54,560 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: wouldn't he be articulate. He's accomplished, well educated. Of course, 140 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: it's particulate. That's the ticket to get in the door. 141 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: But it's special or different or other or stands out 142 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: often when you look like me. But Dana, you are special, 143 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: and you do stand out a special unicorn. I'm not 144 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: There are thousands of black women in this country, getting 145 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: up every day as a single mom, like I am 146 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: going to work. I have a high profile position. You 147 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: are extraordinary, Dana, Well, thank you, But you know what, 148 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: I know a lot of other extraordinary people, and they're 149 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: not all black women. I mean, you're extraordinary, but I 150 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: bet people don't walk around everybody telling you you're extraordinary. 151 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 1: I don't walk through life thinking of myself as extraordinary. 152 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: I think of myself as a mother who has to 153 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: put food on the table, who has to teach my 154 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: child certain values before he leaves my home. You know, 155 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: who has to have who has to have a relationship 156 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 1: with God that's important to me, all those things, And 157 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you something I say all the time. 158 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: I think I've said this to you and you're in 159 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: your home. Um, there are people I had to have 160 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: and to me. This weekend, I was dropping my son 161 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: off at the airport and there was one woman checking 162 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: us in through security and she I was handing her my, 163 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: my tag, my UM his boarding pass and this man 164 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: comes up and he has his boarding pass on his 165 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 1: phone and he literally stepped in front of me and 166 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: held up the pass so she could put him through. 167 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: And I said, excuse me, I'm sorry, did you not 168 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: see me standing here? Right? And so she he ended 169 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: up apologizing and so forth. But we can be invisible, 170 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: we can be misunderstood, and that can't happen for everybody, 171 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: but when you're a person of color, it often happens more. 172 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: And so the sense of entitlement that can happen that 173 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: you speak about all the time, I think is very real. 174 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: I say this people all the time. For anyone who 175 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: thinks they're better than another person, you're only better than 176 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 1: them until you need their bone. Maural life is the 177 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: great equalizer. But I'm saying there are people who really 178 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: think that they're more entitled. They're entitled to cut the line, 179 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: they're entitled to seconds before one else they even has first. 180 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 1: They were titled to the better schools because they can 181 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: pay for them. They were titled entitled to better life 182 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: because they believe they actually worked, they had no leg up, 183 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: and that if everybody else just got over it already 184 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 1: and worked really hard and buckled down, you can get 185 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: there too. And in fact, they point to me as 186 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: proof of that right. And while on one hand, there 187 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: are a lot of people like me, I believe when 188 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: you live in a segregated world. You wouldn't know that. 189 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: We've got so much more to talk about. We'll be 190 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: right back after a quick break. Welcome back to modern rules. 191 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to excuse bad behavior. But there's a 192 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: long distance between that person who cut you in line 193 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: at the airport then the person who's calling you articulate. 194 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 1: And you can say to me, no, Stephanie, But is 195 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: there some break or for giveness to give two people 196 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: who are trying? And this is why I'm saying this 197 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: because my fear right now is that we are getting 198 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: so in these tribes that we have to find some 199 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: level of give because I worry that we're going to 200 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: silence people. And so those people who call me articulated. 201 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: I may be frustrated I wrote my eyes, but I 202 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: don't hold it against them. I can hug that person. 203 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: I can have them in my house. I can laugh 204 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: at him. Let me tell you a really funny story. 205 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: You're all gonna love this. When I first started out 206 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: at the New York Times, um uh and the woman 207 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: I'm I'm telling this story because the woman who did this, 208 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: we're actually friends and we joke about it today. At 209 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: the time, it was not funny. I was brand new 210 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: and I was a business finance reporter, and um, the 211 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: reporters had to work a rotating weekend shift in case 212 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: news broke. And this was during a time when there 213 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: were a lot of mergers and acquisitions going on in 214 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: the banking industry. So I was working on a Sunday. 215 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 1: My shift was almost over and the mergers and acquisition 216 00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: reporter came in. There was some huge deal going down 217 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: on a Sunday and she was frantic. So I get 218 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: my notebook hen pen and said, hey, listen, how can 219 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 1: I help you. I'll stay as long as you need. 220 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 1: And she's like, oh my god, great, thank you. I'll 221 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 1: come back and just give me two minutes. She goes 222 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: to her desk and she scribbled something down right, And 223 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: this gets the again. The point of the story is, 224 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: yes you can. You can start where I'm about to 225 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: tell you and end up where this is a woman 226 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: who's a friend. And she comes back to my desk 227 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: a few minutes later, she hands me the piece of 228 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: paper where she was scribbling down and a key to 229 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: her apartment, says, I've left my oven on. Could you 230 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: just please go and turn it off? What? Uh? Huh? 231 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: And so I had a choice there. And this is 232 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: another thing I teach my son all the time, and 233 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: I speak about this a lot. When life hands you 234 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: whatever it's going to hand you, whether it's something like that, 235 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: which by the way, is minor, or something like the 236 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: tragedy that I've had in my life that you know, 237 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: where my fiance was killed in combat and Iraq when 238 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: Oursonan was six months old. You can really get frustrated, 239 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: which I did, and angry or heart or whatever you 240 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: want to feel. But you can take the high road 241 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: or you can let it bring you low. And so 242 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: what I did was I picked up my coat because 243 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: clearly my shift was over. I wasn't doing that, and 244 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: turned off my computer and said, that sounds like a 245 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 1: personal problem. You need to call your super right away. UM, 246 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: but if I could use my journalism skills in any 247 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: way to help you, just let me know. And I 248 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: walked out. And so the whole next week I had 249 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: a group of friends at the Times, UM, some of 250 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: whom were black reporters, and we it became a joke 251 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: for the week, which really allowed me to let go. 252 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: People would say, hey, by the way of some dry cleaning, 253 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: can you pick it up, or would you order me pizza? 254 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: How did you become friends? Because Dana, that was many 255 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: years ago, and you learned to forgive her, and right now, 256 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: within months, you forgave her with the month. So the 257 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: way we got past it, I love her. She cringes 258 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: when I tell the story. And I never tell her name, 259 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: you know, because I wouldn't do that because she's my friend, 260 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: she said, Dana, and I think she really believes that. 261 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: She said, I thought we were friends. Why I'd only 262 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 1: been there a few months, and you know we weren't 263 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,839 Speaker 1: that close. But in her mind, she said, I was 264 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: asking you as a friend, and that's a lie. Well whatever, 265 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: maybe it was a rationalization, but she was not coming 266 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: from a place she believes of I think you're less 267 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: than and I think your value is in you know, 268 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: turning off my oven, right, And I said, okay, you know, 269 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: I accept that. But also, even if it was a lie, 270 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: she realized she had said and done something wrong and 271 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: felt horrible about it. Um And so then we just 272 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: started making a joke of it, and over time she 273 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: got more and more embarrassed about it, you know, as 274 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: I joked about it. And when we moved on how 275 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: hard is it right now for people to have an 276 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: independent thought, to maintain the highroad, to have a long view. 277 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: And I turned you to social media. On social media 278 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: right now, there's no room for nuance or forgiveness or 279 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: a variety of opinions. On social media, it is performance art. 280 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: You play a role, you play a character, and the 281 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: moment you deviate from that, you are getting full late. 282 00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: So it's harder to do in your line of work. 283 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: But I people minimize social media in your life. Who 284 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: says we have to be slaved to it. I am 285 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: not on social media that much for my job as 286 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: I need to be. I am, uh, but tone it down, 287 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: turn it off, disconnect. Social media is the epicenter of 288 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: where we're labeling and blaming. It's easy to hide. Somebody, 289 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: uh sent a nasty tweet about me last year, something 290 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: about either the way I looked or something I've done. Kid, 291 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: and I just very funny said, you know, that really 292 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: was a bad hair day. And the guy says, oh, ma'am, 293 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. He never thought I would see it. 294 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: He thought I was so you know, I don't know 295 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: in the air that I would never see it. And 296 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: we laughed about it, you know, And I don't laugh 297 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: everything off. I don't want you to think that people 298 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: have to feel whatever they feel, right. Um, but I 299 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: was some anonymous, really not true human being on the 300 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: other side of his you know, phone or computer. He 301 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: never thought I was going to respond. Social media and 302 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: labeling takes me to another subject that I want to 303 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: talk about. Race. It is a massively important topic. I 304 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: worry that maybe the label of racism or racist is 305 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: getting overused in a way that could hurt us in 306 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: terms of race relations. And I'm just gonna give a 307 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: quick example. There's lots of newspaper articles out. I think 308 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: it was a New York Times. It was saying Steveson 309 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: High School, which is sort of the number one gifted 310 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: and talented math public school, admitted only seven African American 311 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: students in the freshman class. And I was just trying 312 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: to make a nuance point on Twitter that while this 313 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: is an issue, this is not the same issue as 314 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: the college cheating scam about white privilege, you know, winner 315 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: take solve. I was trying to say, And in the 316 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: case of Stuyveson, it's a it's one single admissions test, 317 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: there's no interview, there's there, there there, there's nothing qualitative. 318 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: We either get this score or you don't. And so 319 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: I was just trying to say it's slightly different. And 320 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: as soon as I said that, my Twitter is filled 321 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: with you white, privileged racist. And my fear is, as 322 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: soon as people are saying that, you shut down, how 323 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: do we address, especially issues like privilege. Because the answer is, yes, 324 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: it's one exam and all those kids, many of whom 325 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: are from a diverse background, we're going to the public 326 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: failing public schools in New York City aren't prepared for 327 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: that test. But as soon as you're you're being labeled 328 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: a racist. I worry that identifying racial issues might worse 329 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: in race relationship. A couple of things. First of all, 330 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: just because somebody calls your racist doesn't mean you are. 331 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 1: But it does make you want to get out of 332 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: the conversation. Sure it does, Sure, but that's where you 333 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: have to resist. Just as people have to resist using 334 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 1: that label on people who um aren't racist or may 335 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 1: not be racist, others have to say, I'm going to 336 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: stay in the conversation. I'm not going to give that 337 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 1: so much power and so much weight that it shuts 338 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: me down. Because I've decided on part of the solution. 339 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: Something I've been struggling with these is is how we 340 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,479 Speaker 1: can find a way to explore things that we do 341 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: not understand, get somebody else's perspective without actually stepping on 342 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: a cultural landmark. Is there a way to cover these 343 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: dicey topics and be genuinely curious without getting yourself in 344 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,719 Speaker 1: hot water? So I turned to someone who I trust, 345 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: who knows I have good intentions, and he certainly knows 346 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: a lot. My friend, writer, entrepreneur, musician, all around superstar 347 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: quest love to get some answers. I want to talk 348 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: to you about how hard it is to tell the 349 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 1: truth right now and how hard it is to get real. 350 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: So I always joked at the young people that I 351 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: work with or I call them woke nation, and I 352 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: think about what it's like on social media right now, 353 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: or it's very hard to share an opinion that's outside 354 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 1: this designated brand. Can I ask you something that, yeah, 355 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: of course, are they woke or are they performative woke? Okay? 356 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 1: Right there? Right there? Okay, Because performative look is a 357 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: syndrome that's threatening not to go away. How do you 358 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 1: define performative woke? I guess. In short, you could say 359 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 1: that what social media allows you to do, kind of 360 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: like old school Nintendo with the gold coins, is you 361 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:22,679 Speaker 1: get to collect cloud points. You know, so with the 362 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: right sentence, in the right paragraph, in the right structure, 363 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: you can collect cloud points. Now, do you believe that 364 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 1: there's a way of informing people of what's going on 365 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 1: that otherwise wouldn't know? Like I know for the fact 366 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: that most of my friends are at this point exhausted 367 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: from watching the news, So I have a bunch of 368 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: hashtag I just can't. I just can't. I just can't, 369 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 1: and the news is exhausting. So I mean, for a 370 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: certain few to inform them I think is wise. But 371 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: then there's people that take kind of that position. And 372 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's fake concern under fake outrage, but 373 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: there's people that I call performative book that I'd feel 374 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: don't necessarily walk the walk or talk the talk. You know, 375 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: how dangerous do you think it is? Because I fear 376 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: it's going to get people to stop talking. I mean, 377 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: it's a real thing, though, And that's the thing is 378 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: things can happen in real time, and voices can be 379 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,160 Speaker 1: heard instantly, and we do live in cancel culture, and 380 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 1: so right now it's what I would call the landmine 381 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: era where we live in where you just have to 382 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 1: be extremely careful and what your moves are in what 383 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: your approaches. Um, I don't know if it's crazy more 384 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: or less than just maybe we just weren't aware of 385 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: the outrage and I'm in for certain things. Yeah, I 386 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: do believe that this is becoming a genuine surprise to 387 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: people that weren't aware that black people felt a certain 388 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 1: way about things. People are going to have to do 389 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: real research, and that's the problem. You are so much 390 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: more than a musician. We can't even list the amount 391 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: of businesses that you're in. How do you feel when 392 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: people call you articulate? I rolled my eyes in my head, 393 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: you know, you know what a compliment in their minds. 394 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: I used to But see, that's the whole superhuman subhuman. 395 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: But what if it's not. What if someone saying, man, 396 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 1: you're super impressive. What if they're not saying it about 397 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,879 Speaker 1: your race. What if they're saying it about you because 398 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: you are all right? So look all right, the same 399 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:37,479 Speaker 1: way that Black Lives Matter has a secret ellipsus at 400 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 1: the end of that sentence, which you know, missing a 401 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: word too t o O. In two, I realized that 402 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna hear hashtag speak so well, um, I didn't 403 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: expect this. I didn't expect a deep conversation with you. 404 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: And it's it's because for at least the first three 405 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: years of my career from six, that's all I heard, like, Wow, 406 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: you're so amazing to talk to you. No, no, no no, 407 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: And I mean at the time, it was like, Okay, 408 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: I have to get in the doors somehow. So I'm 409 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 1: not going to say, well, what do you mean by that? 410 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 1: Do you mean that we're all not like? You know? 411 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: I know that the end of that sentences as opposed 412 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 1: to other rappers that I interview that don't hold a 413 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: conversation with me this word research. Is there a place 414 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:31,400 Speaker 1: for it in a thoughtful way? You Well, I talked 415 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: to people. I know you like I talk to people. 416 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: So I'm the I'm the bridge between a lot of opinions. 417 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 1: I will ask everyone what they think, what they think, 418 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 1: and that's the thing. I don't know everything, but I 419 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: ask everything, and that's that's the problem. People don't go 420 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: outside their comfort zones. Okay, so I'm gonna go out 421 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: on a limb and say I believe that you know 422 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: and respect me, and you believe I'm well intentioned. Is 423 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: there a place for me, in a truly curious way 424 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: to ask a question like I know it's not appropriate, 425 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: I can't remember why. But is there a way to 426 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 1: actually approach and answer that question without burning a house down? 427 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: I feel as though there are enough op edge and 428 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 1: enough blogs out there where you can discreetly, quietly google 429 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: what what opinions are to sort of get the gist 430 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: of you know, how deep is the water? Like I 431 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: don't again? Which if you okay, if you're vacationing next weekend, 432 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: you happen to be on the yacht, I would think 433 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: that you wouldn't just dive in head first. You would 434 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 1: ask questions about are there sharks in there? You would 435 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: you want to know how deep the water is? And 436 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:53,679 Speaker 1: people like you and we are lucky enough to have 437 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 1: massive platforms, we better do our homework before we run 438 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: our mouth. But not even for us, I think general, 439 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: only for everybody. I think all those answers can be 440 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: found a lot of times people will just ask the 441 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: question and my my number one response on social media 442 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 1: is mostly Google's your best friend. Google's your best friend, 443 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 1: and you know yes, Could I have just given them 444 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: the answer, how many albums have you had? Seventeen? No, 445 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: I would say, like Google's your best friend, Like I 446 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 1: want you to do the work. You can find that out. 447 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: There's an easy way to find that out. We have 448 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: so much more to get into. We'll be back right 449 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: after a quick break. Welcome back to modern rules. As 450 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: complicated as it is for me on live TV every day, 451 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: there's one profession I think it's worse for comedy. Comedians, 452 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: for all these years have made a living making people laugh, 453 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: kind of leaning on, pressing on stereotypes, and now we're 454 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: living at a time when even stereotyping someone at the 455 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: get go can knock you out of the game. So 456 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: I talked to Michael ian Black about how complicated all 457 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: this is for a guy in his profession. Do you 458 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: see the impact of this sort of cancel culture. We're 459 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 1: deleting people that we don't like their behavior, We're labeling them. 460 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,239 Speaker 1: There's always examples of individuals who have been through this 461 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: and have had their lives really hurt um some cases fairly, 462 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: in fewer cases unfairly. I don't know anybody in media 463 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: who hasn't men in media who hasn't like looked at 464 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: their own past behavior and gone, jeez, did I step 465 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: over a line somewhere? Did I do something in a 466 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: different place before it was But things come up from 467 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: twenty years ago, thirty years ago, like in the case 468 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: of well Joe Biden, I guess who. I have no 469 00:25:58,280 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: idea what his intentions are one way or the other, 470 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 1: but probably didn't think twice about whatever he was doing 471 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: in that moment because it's the way he was and 472 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: the line was in a different place. And now he's 473 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: being forced to think about that. Being forced to think 474 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: about it is a good thing. That's what I'm saying. 475 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 1: Being forced out is something else right And and to 476 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: this point we haven't seen him forced out of anything. 477 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: I saw you this year try to give some grace 478 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: and space to Louis c K. And you were annihilated, 479 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,959 Speaker 1: you retreated after the Louis c K thing. But your 480 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,360 Speaker 1: intention is the same. Have you thought more about it? 481 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 1: Is there room for someone to come back who has 482 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 1: gone down? Well? One of the reasons I picked Louis 483 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,679 Speaker 1: specifically was because I thought he was unique in his 484 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: ability to address his own foibles and that if anybody 485 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: could do it, he could. What's been disappointing about Louis 486 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 1: specifically is that he has chosen the exact opposite path 487 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 1: since then, and the fact that he's done that has 488 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 1: made me actually feel worse and more foolish for having 489 00:26:55,480 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 1: come to his defense in the beginning. I think everybody thought, 490 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 1: I thought that Louis made a career. Louis specifically made 491 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: a career of talking about what a scumbag he is 492 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: and all the things that are wrong with Louis. And 493 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: yet when it came to this thing, this thing that 494 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: everybody knew about and everybody exp effected him to address, 495 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: he hasn't done it in an intelligent, cogent, or humble way. 496 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 1: I think he had an opportunity to come back if 497 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: he had done that, and maybe he still has that opportunity, 498 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: but his behavior since then has indicated that he's unwilling 499 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: or unable to do it. I don't know. I don't 500 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: know if people can come back. I think somebody will 501 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: at some point, and we'll see how it goes for them. 502 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: But that's also because sometimes you have to say you're 503 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: sorry and be sorry sorrier than you want to be right, 504 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: so for you, for me, there there can be instances, 505 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,959 Speaker 1: especially on social media, where our words, because we're public, 506 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: people of prominence, we can express a view, and even 507 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 1: if we have no bad intention, if it is offensive 508 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: to someone, we have to ask ourselves, are we truly 509 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: sorry that that person got offended? And oftentimes we don't 510 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 1: want to say we're sorry, because it's like we're admitting guilt. Right, 511 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: But if you, if you, if you come from a 512 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 1: place where you say there's no such thing as an 513 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: ugly truth, and I am sorry that what I said sucked, 514 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: I'm sorry that I did that, And and that maybe 515 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: is the case of Louis or others where they're still 516 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: so stuck in on technicalities or but this, but that 517 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: instead of just you gotta truly fall on the sword, 518 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: and people don't seem to want to. It's really hard 519 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: for men in particular, to be that vulnerable, to expose 520 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: themselves in that way. That's hard. That's really hard stuff. 521 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: Maybe the hardest thing for men is to, you know, 522 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: essentially just stand there naked and say take your shot. 523 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: I deserve it. That's hard, and you would hope that 524 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: more men would learn to develop those skills. We didn't 525 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: let them until now. No, I don't know that we're 526 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: able to to this point. I struggle with it constantly. 527 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: You know, I just screw up at home, you know, 528 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: I pissed off my wife about something. It's really really, 529 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: really hard for me to say I screwed up and 530 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: I'm sorry and to own that. It's really hard. Then again, 531 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:31,719 Speaker 1: she almost never apologizes to me. But we didn't. We 532 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: don't allow. When men are vulnerable, we judge them for it, 533 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: and we think they're weak. And when women are we 534 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: think they're weak. You can be confident and vulnerable at 535 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: the same time. Traditionally we don't allow. We don't, we 536 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: don't allow for that. I'm just I'm trying to process 537 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: whether I agree with you that we don't allow women 538 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: to have that same vulnerability. Listen, we let, we let them, 539 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: and then we love it because we're like, you can 540 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: be vulnerable and cry because it keeps us nice and week. Yeah, 541 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: I think maybe that's right. Sure, we their tears are welcome, 542 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: and then we are and then we will keep them 543 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: right there in their place. I think when a man 544 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: does that, when a man kind of sheds those public 545 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: tears in a weird way, it can end with contempt 546 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: for him instead of appreciation. So here's what I'm hearing 547 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: about political correctness. There is no clear answer, but there's 548 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: also no political correctness police. It's going to come and 549 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: arrest you. Now, what I learned is just because you 550 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: have good intentions, that isn't necessarily good enough. And while 551 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: we can't expect everyone to be hyper aware of every 552 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: person's perspective and play my commitment, what I'm gonna do 553 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: is to actually think a little bit harder about it 554 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: and implement it for those around me. If we can 555 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: all try a little bit more and get out of 556 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: our camps, actually think we're gonna huge progress. So that 557 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: is what I'm gonna do. This has been our conversation 558 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: on political correctness. Thanks for listening, bringing in open mind, 559 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: and helping me create the modern rules. That's it for 560 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: today's episode. I'm your host, Stephanie Rule. A very very 561 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 1: special thanks to the extraordinary people who made this happen. 562 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,719 Speaker 1: My producers Julie Brown, Samantha Ullen, and Anne Bark, Audio 563 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: Michael Biett for booking and wrangling the amazing guests who 564 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: joined us, Julian Weller for editing and bill Plaques, Michael 565 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: Azar and Jacobo Penzo for their recording expertise. Special thanks 566 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: to Seve Lick Tid, Barbara Rap, Jonathan Wald, Redugo, Holly 567 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: traz Nikki Etre, and Christina Everett. Our executive producers are 568 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: Conald Byrne and Mangesh Attigador, and of course the men 569 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: who brought us all together, Chairman and CEO of I 570 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: Heart Media Bob Bittman and Chairman of an DC News 571 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 1: Andy Lack. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit 572 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: the i Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 573 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows. H