1 00:00:15,647 --> 00:00:34,447 Speaker 1: Pushkin Pushkin previously on Hot Money. First of all, I 2 00:00:34,447 --> 00:00:36,007 Speaker 1: thought someone might have been murdered. 3 00:00:36,647 --> 00:00:39,287 Speaker 2: But I did think, well, there's no ambulances or anything, 4 00:00:39,647 --> 00:00:41,287 Speaker 2: and there's no police cars. 5 00:00:41,527 --> 00:00:44,927 Speaker 1: And then I saw these men or women or black 6 00:00:45,447 --> 00:00:46,607 Speaker 1: with oil clab was on. 7 00:00:48,567 --> 00:00:50,847 Speaker 3: Marzleck really was like a sort of ghost that haunted 8 00:00:50,927 --> 00:00:55,847 Speaker 3: this trial. He was clearly the organizing mind, and he 9 00:00:56,007 --> 00:00:59,127 Speaker 3: was there in black and white in these telegram messages. 10 00:01:07,527 --> 00:01:09,967 Speaker 4: If I was a border ConTroll guy, though, I would 11 00:01:10,007 --> 00:01:15,927 Speaker 4: notice the expiry date on that check per sport. Passports 12 00:01:15,967 --> 00:01:17,607 Speaker 4: never last more than ten years, do they? 13 00:01:17,727 --> 00:01:19,887 Speaker 1: Right? I mean I don't. I didn't know that. 14 00:01:19,887 --> 00:01:20,727 Speaker 4: That doesn't look right. 15 00:01:22,567 --> 00:01:25,247 Speaker 1: I'm back with Paul Murphy, my old editor and the 16 00:01:25,287 --> 00:01:28,207 Speaker 1: person who first put me onto the Yan marceleg story, 17 00:01:29,167 --> 00:01:32,687 Speaker 1: and I've brought copies of some identity documents, passports, and 18 00:01:32,767 --> 00:01:38,367 Speaker 1: a few photos. Constantin Vladimirvitch Bayazov. I've got a picture 19 00:01:38,367 --> 00:01:40,127 Speaker 1: of him here dressed in a kind of very ornate 20 00:01:40,247 --> 00:01:45,927 Speaker 1: gold Orthodox priests kind of mantle, carrying a candle. Oh no, 21 00:01:45,967 --> 00:01:48,927 Speaker 1: it's not a candle. It's a chalice covered with a cloth. 22 00:01:49,647 --> 00:01:53,647 Speaker 1: Looks like a sort of slightly more weathered mar Select 23 00:01:53,647 --> 00:01:57,247 Speaker 1: but they do look similar, similar kind of face shape 24 00:01:57,367 --> 00:02:01,047 Speaker 1: you do, actually, yeah, So basically he's nicked his identity. 25 00:02:01,527 --> 00:02:05,767 Speaker 4: He's traveling to places like Dubai as a Russian Orthodox 26 00:02:05,847 --> 00:02:09,967 Speaker 4: priest that's going to kind of crimp crimp for his operation. 27 00:02:11,687 --> 00:02:15,087 Speaker 1: I have no idea if Marcelec actually traveled anywhere dressed 28 00:02:15,087 --> 00:02:17,847 Speaker 1: in the full vestments of the Russian Orthodox Church, but 29 00:02:17,927 --> 00:02:20,047 Speaker 1: I do know this is one of the identities he's 30 00:02:20,087 --> 00:02:22,847 Speaker 1: been using in recent years, and there are plenty more. 31 00:02:24,087 --> 00:02:26,527 Speaker 1: Some are from real people, some are names that are 32 00:02:26,527 --> 00:02:31,407 Speaker 1: completely made up. A Frenchman from Strasbourg, Alexandro Schmidt, and 33 00:02:31,487 --> 00:02:34,887 Speaker 1: a Belgian of the same name an Austrian Max Mauer. 34 00:02:35,807 --> 00:02:39,407 Speaker 1: I've also had tips about a possible Israeli identity, even 35 00:02:39,567 --> 00:02:40,527 Speaker 1: a Namibian one. 36 00:02:42,007 --> 00:02:45,647 Speaker 4: I noticed that he's locked a couple of years off 37 00:02:45,647 --> 00:02:51,047 Speaker 4: his age on which one the Belgian driving license, saying 38 00:02:51,127 --> 00:02:54,047 Speaker 4: he's born in eighty two. He wasn't he born in 39 00:02:54,127 --> 00:02:55,807 Speaker 4: nineteen eighty. 40 00:02:59,127 --> 00:03:01,887 Speaker 1: For much of the last few years, figuring out ways 41 00:03:01,927 --> 00:03:05,407 Speaker 1: to conceal his identity has really been the major preoccupation 42 00:03:05,487 --> 00:03:09,687 Speaker 1: for Marcelek. Disappearing in an age of ubiquitous cc TV 43 00:03:09,807 --> 00:03:14,247 Speaker 1: and now facial recognition software. It's no easy task, so 44 00:03:14,367 --> 00:03:17,527 Speaker 1: much so that he's even told people he's had plastic surgery. 45 00:03:18,087 --> 00:03:20,607 Speaker 1: And yet, despite being one of the world's most wanted men, 46 00:03:20,927 --> 00:03:24,087 Speaker 1: Marcelek has managed to maintain allies in countries all over 47 00:03:24,127 --> 00:03:27,607 Speaker 1: the world. I've already told you about his networks in Austria, 48 00:03:27,847 --> 00:03:32,447 Speaker 1: the UK, and Libya, but his connections actually reach much further, 49 00:03:33,167 --> 00:03:36,167 Speaker 1: something brought into focus by the reams of messages that 50 00:03:36,207 --> 00:03:39,847 Speaker 1: were revealed through the case of the bulgarianspiring the trial 51 00:03:39,887 --> 00:03:44,807 Speaker 1: we heard about in the last episode. Those messages show 52 00:03:44,847 --> 00:03:48,607 Speaker 1: that Marcelek has a network of business contacts, corrupt officials 53 00:03:48,807 --> 00:03:56,127 Speaker 1: and pals that spans the globe. And there's one particular 54 00:03:56,207 --> 00:04:00,287 Speaker 1: network that I want to discuss with Paul, And actually, 55 00:04:00,327 --> 00:04:04,407 Speaker 1: you know, information came to us really well at the 56 00:04:04,487 --> 00:04:06,767 Speaker 1: end of the trial that kind of points to the 57 00:04:06,807 --> 00:04:10,247 Speaker 1: fact that this network of his around the world, it 58 00:04:10,727 --> 00:04:15,047 Speaker 1: might include some contacts that are a lot more surprising 59 00:04:15,887 --> 00:04:19,447 Speaker 1: than any we've found out about so far. Are intrigued 60 00:04:20,807 --> 00:04:24,407 Speaker 1: because Jan marcelect he's someone who's dedicated himself to acting 61 00:04:24,407 --> 00:04:27,527 Speaker 1: in Russia's interests, working in the shadows to push the 62 00:04:27,607 --> 00:04:35,247 Speaker 1: Kremlin's agenda, but not exclusively. I'm Sam Jones from the 63 00:04:35,247 --> 00:04:39,087 Speaker 1: Financial Times and Pushkin Industries. This is Hot Money. Season three, 64 00:04:39,607 --> 00:04:55,447 Speaker 1: Agent of Chaos, Episode eight, Matrioshka, great, thanks again for 65 00:04:55,447 --> 00:04:58,207 Speaker 1: picking us up your pleasure, Sat. 66 00:04:58,327 --> 00:05:01,447 Speaker 5: That takes you to a field about half about. 67 00:05:04,007 --> 00:05:07,087 Speaker 1: Before we get to mars Elect's wider network. There's someone 68 00:05:07,087 --> 00:05:10,367 Speaker 1: I knew I needed to speak to, someone who can 69 00:05:10,367 --> 00:05:13,607 Speaker 1: help me understand what Russia really wants and why. An 70 00:05:13,647 --> 00:05:18,687 Speaker 1: agent like Jan Marselek is the perfect fit. Chris Donnelly 71 00:05:18,767 --> 00:05:22,207 Speaker 1: lives in a remote corner of Britain. My producer Peggy 72 00:05:22,207 --> 00:05:23,767 Speaker 1: and I traveled there to meet him. 73 00:05:24,447 --> 00:05:24,567 Speaker 6: Hi. 74 00:05:29,447 --> 00:05:33,807 Speaker 1: Chris is a respected Kremlin analyst, a cold warrior, and 75 00:05:33,847 --> 00:05:37,487 Speaker 1: at seventy nine, Chris still finds himself a personal target 76 00:05:37,487 --> 00:05:42,287 Speaker 1: for Russia. His house burned down under mysterious circumstances several 77 00:05:42,367 --> 00:05:46,007 Speaker 1: years ago, and as a result, he's still regularly in 78 00:05:46,047 --> 00:05:49,447 Speaker 1: contact with Special Branch, the unit of the UK's police 79 00:05:49,687 --> 00:05:54,887 Speaker 1: who handles sensitive political cases. About possible ongoing threats to him. 80 00:05:55,127 --> 00:05:57,487 Speaker 5: Still really is an issue. The police of the house 81 00:05:57,607 --> 00:06:02,487 Speaker 5: under storm alert. We've got security systems right. We're not 82 00:06:02,527 --> 00:06:05,167 Speaker 5: sure how it came to burn down. 83 00:06:05,247 --> 00:06:07,967 Speaker 1: We're sitting in the drawing room of Chris's ancient manor house. 84 00:06:08,607 --> 00:06:12,127 Speaker 1: Through the window, our views across rolling hills to distant peaks. 85 00:06:12,887 --> 00:06:15,607 Speaker 1: Chris has offered us a glass of dry white wine, 86 00:06:16,047 --> 00:06:18,847 Speaker 1: while his wife gets an omelet lunch ready in their 87 00:06:18,887 --> 00:06:22,847 Speaker 1: big farmhouse kitchen. The contrast between what we're here to 88 00:06:22,887 --> 00:06:25,887 Speaker 1: talk about, the very English romance of the setting, and 89 00:06:26,007 --> 00:06:30,807 Speaker 1: Chris's quiet, generous hospitality is almost surreal, and not for 90 00:06:30,847 --> 00:06:33,447 Speaker 1: the first time in this series, I feel the thinness 91 00:06:33,487 --> 00:06:36,887 Speaker 1: of the boundary between the conventions of spy fact and fiction, 92 00:06:37,967 --> 00:06:40,527 Speaker 1: especially when he tells me how all this started for 93 00:06:40,607 --> 00:06:44,807 Speaker 1: him Back when he was twenty two years old. Chris 94 00:06:45,047 --> 00:06:47,687 Speaker 1: was studying for a Russian language degree and had a 95 00:06:47,727 --> 00:06:51,287 Speaker 1: desire to really immerse himself in the country. On his 96 00:06:51,407 --> 00:06:55,327 Speaker 1: second visit there, his idealism met with the reality of 97 00:06:55,407 --> 00:06:59,047 Speaker 1: Russian power head on. It was nineteen sixty eight. 98 00:06:59,447 --> 00:07:02,767 Speaker 5: I drawn by Mini there with a colleague and we 99 00:07:02,927 --> 00:07:05,567 Speaker 5: ended up being arrested and put on trial and thrown 100 00:07:05,607 --> 00:07:06,407 Speaker 5: out of the country. 101 00:07:06,767 --> 00:07:09,487 Speaker 1: Wow, you'd driven your miss. 102 00:07:09,807 --> 00:07:12,607 Speaker 5: To Moscow, and then from Moscow down to the Caucasus, 103 00:07:12,647 --> 00:07:15,887 Speaker 5: and then from the Caucasus into Ukraine and wonder why 104 00:07:16,167 --> 00:07:17,567 Speaker 5: all the roads are full of tanks. 105 00:07:19,047 --> 00:07:22,407 Speaker 1: Chris had inadvertently driven his Mini Cooper into one of 106 00:07:22,447 --> 00:07:25,687 Speaker 1: the defining events of the Cold War, the crackdown that 107 00:07:25,727 --> 00:07:30,887 Speaker 1: would forever change the reputation of the Soviet Union. Those 108 00:07:30,927 --> 00:07:33,887 Speaker 1: tanks were on their way to Czechoslovakia to unseat the 109 00:07:33,887 --> 00:07:36,727 Speaker 1: country's government and stop its liberal reforms. 110 00:07:39,887 --> 00:07:41,967 Speaker 5: From the Russian pature. It was obvious we were there 111 00:07:42,007 --> 00:07:44,567 Speaker 5: to spy on the tanks throughout. From our point of view, 112 00:07:44,567 --> 00:07:46,807 Speaker 5: they were just obstacles in the way of our driving. 113 00:07:48,727 --> 00:07:49,927 Speaker 5: We didn't know what was going on. 114 00:07:50,087 --> 00:07:52,967 Speaker 1: BlimE me, okay, what must have been a bit of 115 00:07:53,007 --> 00:07:54,847 Speaker 1: a hair raising experience. 116 00:07:55,487 --> 00:07:59,167 Speaker 5: It makes you think, and it set me on a 117 00:07:59,207 --> 00:08:06,367 Speaker 5: course of wanting to understand the mentality and why and 118 00:08:06,487 --> 00:08:08,887 Speaker 5: how Russians think differently. 119 00:08:10,127 --> 00:08:12,407 Speaker 1: Chris tells me he spent a week in jail in 120 00:08:12,447 --> 00:08:16,247 Speaker 1: Odessa before the Russians sent him home. He would go 121 00:08:16,327 --> 00:08:19,167 Speaker 1: on to become one of the most respected Russia watchers 122 00:08:19,167 --> 00:08:22,207 Speaker 1: in the West. He taught for years at the Royal 123 00:08:22,247 --> 00:08:26,887 Speaker 1: Military Academy Sandhurst, and his expertise meant he would eventually 124 00:08:26,927 --> 00:08:30,007 Speaker 1: advise the leaders of Western governments on Russia and how 125 00:08:30,007 --> 00:08:38,167 Speaker 1: to handle it, and then nineteen eighty nine came by. 126 00:08:38,207 --> 00:08:41,807 Speaker 1: Then Chris was working for NATO. He'd heard that something 127 00:08:41,847 --> 00:08:44,647 Speaker 1: was going on at the border between West and East Germany, 128 00:08:45,207 --> 00:08:47,767 Speaker 1: so he drove there to see it for himself. And 129 00:08:47,807 --> 00:08:50,567 Speaker 1: what he witnessed it's an image that has stayed with 130 00:08:50,687 --> 00:08:56,327 Speaker 1: him vividly ever since. A family leaving East Germany, the 131 00:08:56,367 --> 00:08:58,567 Speaker 1: first time they were free to do that in decades. 132 00:08:58,767 --> 00:09:02,487 Speaker 5: A family of five stuffed in Tyler trebant, which is 133 00:09:02,567 --> 00:09:05,807 Speaker 5: something smaller in a minion made of carbos was a 134 00:09:05,847 --> 00:09:11,887 Speaker 5: two stort three silans ranger. They then moved through the 135 00:09:11,967 --> 00:09:17,647 Speaker 5: gates and out into Germany. They were suddenly surrounded by 136 00:09:19,767 --> 00:09:24,287 Speaker 5: a thousand people. Where to for him? Who pulled out 137 00:09:24,287 --> 00:09:33,047 Speaker 5: of the artistic Yeah, have money, it's happened. There's no 138 00:09:33,247 --> 00:09:34,047 Speaker 5: control of this. 139 00:09:38,087 --> 00:09:40,407 Speaker 1: I can see exactly why this makes Chris well up 140 00:09:40,447 --> 00:09:44,127 Speaker 1: to this day. His whole adult life, he dedicated himself 141 00:09:44,127 --> 00:09:47,927 Speaker 1: to trying to understand and fight this huge, repressive regime, 142 00:09:48,567 --> 00:09:53,407 Speaker 1: and suddenly, in a blink, it was tumbling apart, all 143 00:09:53,447 --> 00:09:57,767 Speaker 1: captured in that one single human moment of a solitary car, 144 00:09:58,087 --> 00:10:02,447 Speaker 1: a single family driving to their freedom, being welcomed by 145 00:10:02,527 --> 00:10:06,247 Speaker 1: thousands of fellow Germans. They'd been forcibly separated from all 146 00:10:06,287 --> 00:10:13,607 Speaker 1: their lives. Chris, like almost everyone thought the fall of 147 00:10:13,607 --> 00:10:15,887 Speaker 1: the Wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union that 148 00:10:15,967 --> 00:10:19,367 Speaker 1: followed was the beginning of a new world. But in 149 00:10:19,447 --> 00:10:23,287 Speaker 1: Russia itself, change brought chaos, and in the dying days 150 00:10:23,287 --> 00:10:26,767 Speaker 1: of the presidency of Boris Yeltsin, Putin and his people 151 00:10:27,167 --> 00:10:28,687 Speaker 1: began to come out of the shadows. 152 00:10:29,807 --> 00:10:33,127 Speaker 5: So these guys are not politicians in the Western sense 153 00:10:33,687 --> 00:10:38,327 Speaker 5: of people who have risen through political party processes. They 154 00:10:38,367 --> 00:10:45,487 Speaker 5: are former intelligence officers and military people with an intelligence 155 00:10:45,607 --> 00:10:50,727 Speaker 5: war mindset, a war mindset who have now turned the 156 00:10:50,807 --> 00:10:54,607 Speaker 5: tradecraft of the KGB into the statecraft of the Russian state. 157 00:10:54,847 --> 00:10:57,407 Speaker 1: A mindset that began all the way back in nineteen 158 00:10:57,447 --> 00:11:01,007 Speaker 1: seventeen when the Russian Revolution brought the Bolsheviks to power 159 00:11:01,447 --> 00:11:03,247 Speaker 1: and has endured ever since. 160 00:11:04,247 --> 00:11:09,767 Speaker 5: Because the whole Russian system remained on a war foot 161 00:11:10,847 --> 00:11:13,967 Speaker 5: and never moved to a piece that I'm footing, because 162 00:11:13,967 --> 00:11:16,807 Speaker 5: it lived with this understanding that the world was hostile, 163 00:11:18,047 --> 00:11:21,967 Speaker 5: All the outside worlds hostile. Everyone's an enemy, and we 164 00:11:22,087 --> 00:11:25,687 Speaker 5: might have to fight. As Chris tells me more about 165 00:11:25,727 --> 00:11:28,967 Speaker 5: how Russia thinks about war. I begin to better grasp 166 00:11:29,007 --> 00:11:33,047 Speaker 5: the plots that yan Marcelek organized, to better understand how 167 00:11:33,047 --> 00:11:36,567 Speaker 5: they fit into a Russian strategy and what the principles 168 00:11:36,567 --> 00:11:40,327 Speaker 5: of that strategy are. So the first principle of war 169 00:11:40,407 --> 00:11:48,127 Speaker 5: in Russia is surprise. It's actually his aptness suddenness. The 170 00:11:48,167 --> 00:11:53,367 Speaker 5: second principle actipenist, keep moving, keep them off balance. The 171 00:11:53,407 --> 00:11:56,887 Speaker 5: third principle is masculovka. Hide what you do because there's 172 00:11:56,887 --> 00:12:01,247 Speaker 5: no ground to hide behind, no hills or valleys to 173 00:12:01,367 --> 00:12:02,807 Speaker 5: move up in a secret. 174 00:12:04,207 --> 00:12:07,407 Speaker 1: Many of these principles, as Chris explains, can be traced 175 00:12:07,487 --> 00:12:10,087 Speaker 1: right back to things as simple as the geography of 176 00:12:10,167 --> 00:12:14,887 Speaker 1: Russia itself. Like that last one, maskudrovka. Your forces need 177 00:12:14,927 --> 00:12:18,567 Speaker 1: to mask their intentions through psychological tricks because they can't 178 00:12:18,567 --> 00:12:22,567 Speaker 1: rely on the environment, the flat, open terrain to hide them. 179 00:12:23,727 --> 00:12:26,007 Speaker 5: You're all in the open, so you have to be 180 00:12:26,287 --> 00:12:31,367 Speaker 5: deceitful in the good sense of the term. Then camp, 181 00:12:31,567 --> 00:12:34,527 Speaker 5: perhapsly the temple of the operation. You've got to keep 182 00:12:34,567 --> 00:12:36,927 Speaker 5: the whole thing moving at a large scale and not 183 00:12:37,007 --> 00:12:40,567 Speaker 5: get bogged down. You don't know whether the nem is 184 00:12:40,647 --> 00:12:45,447 Speaker 5: or as vid Kuboi and reconnaissance. By battle, you actually 185 00:12:45,487 --> 00:12:47,527 Speaker 5: attack the enemy to find that what he's going to do, 186 00:12:47,767 --> 00:12:51,127 Speaker 5: because he doesn't know either, so intelligence can't do that. 187 00:12:51,687 --> 00:12:56,767 Speaker 5: So everything's proactive. Starting from your basic principles, you. 188 00:12:56,727 --> 00:12:59,807 Speaker 1: Don't need to worry about staying hidden if you can confuse, 189 00:13:00,487 --> 00:13:03,047 Speaker 1: you don't need to be careful, if you can be fast, 190 00:13:04,087 --> 00:13:06,727 Speaker 1: and with all of this you can give your operatives. 191 00:13:07,087 --> 00:13:09,607 Speaker 1: You want to give your operatives a whole load of 192 00:13:09,647 --> 00:13:13,127 Speaker 1: freedom to make decisions. You let them succeed or fail 193 00:13:13,407 --> 00:13:16,487 Speaker 1: based on their own merits. You just set an overarching 194 00:13:16,527 --> 00:13:20,207 Speaker 1: objective and then let your agents see how far they 195 00:13:20,207 --> 00:13:20,967 Speaker 1: can push things. 196 00:13:22,327 --> 00:13:25,487 Speaker 5: You're giving the guys free license to go and attack 197 00:13:25,607 --> 00:13:28,327 Speaker 5: what they can and destroy it as long as they 198 00:13:28,407 --> 00:13:33,047 Speaker 5: maintain that main aim. The mentality is coherent throughout the 199 00:13:33,087 --> 00:13:34,647 Speaker 5: whole applause. It makes sense. 200 00:13:35,607 --> 00:13:38,887 Speaker 1: To a Western intelligence agency it might look reckless to 201 00:13:38,927 --> 00:13:42,527 Speaker 1: cultivate an agent like Marcelek, the author of a massive fraud, 202 00:13:42,847 --> 00:13:45,007 Speaker 1: with an appetite for the high life and a ponchon 203 00:13:45,127 --> 00:13:49,607 Speaker 1: for games and mystery. But to the GRU Russia's military 204 00:13:49,607 --> 00:13:54,007 Speaker 1: intelligence agency, an organization primed to test constantly for points 205 00:13:54,047 --> 00:13:58,207 Speaker 1: of weakness to act unexpectedly and to push, push and 206 00:13:58,287 --> 00:14:02,287 Speaker 1: push in areas where it suddenly finds advantage. It makes 207 00:14:02,327 --> 00:14:05,607 Speaker 1: total sense. Now, I do want to be clear that 208 00:14:05,767 --> 00:14:09,167 Speaker 1: not all Russian intelligence is like this, but the g 209 00:14:09,327 --> 00:14:12,007 Speaker 1: are you school of covert action, it's the one that 210 00:14:12,007 --> 00:14:14,687 Speaker 1: has really come to dominate Russian thinking in recent years. 211 00:14:15,287 --> 00:14:20,847 Speaker 1: The GIU is having its moment. So would I mean 212 00:14:20,927 --> 00:14:23,887 Speaker 1: under that description, would you say that to take that 213 00:14:23,967 --> 00:14:28,767 Speaker 1: kind of battlefield doctrine and apply it to European society 214 00:14:28,807 --> 00:14:31,167 Speaker 1: at large, that we kind of got to a stage 215 00:14:31,207 --> 00:14:35,247 Speaker 1: at one point where Russian intelligence had kind of broken 216 00:14:35,287 --> 00:14:37,887 Speaker 1: through and was so successful, and then people would just 217 00:14:37,927 --> 00:14:40,407 Speaker 1: go and make a mess, go and go and break things. 218 00:14:40,767 --> 00:14:45,207 Speaker 5: Yeah. The fact that there's a controlling mind directing the attack 219 00:14:45,327 --> 00:14:49,247 Speaker 5: doesn't mean to say that that mind is micromanaging with 220 00:14:49,287 --> 00:14:54,247 Speaker 5: a long screw dirie for every little operation. You couldn't 221 00:14:54,287 --> 00:14:58,527 Speaker 5: do it, not without flowing everything down. 222 00:14:59,647 --> 00:15:02,847 Speaker 1: I suppose it's a very different way of covert action 223 00:15:03,127 --> 00:15:08,047 Speaker 1: to what we might think of in the UK or 224 00:15:08,087 --> 00:15:08,567 Speaker 1: the US. 225 00:15:08,767 --> 00:15:11,247 Speaker 5: Yeah, the biggest difference is is it carries me. It's 226 00:15:11,247 --> 00:15:16,527 Speaker 5: a lot of risk, but in Russian terms, it's not 227 00:15:16,847 --> 00:15:23,247 Speaker 5: unjustifiable risks. In war, you have to take risks, and 228 00:15:23,287 --> 00:15:26,407 Speaker 5: you have to reward people for taking risks, and you 229 00:15:26,487 --> 00:15:30,727 Speaker 5: have to let them make mistakes and learn from them. 230 00:15:31,127 --> 00:15:33,447 Speaker 5: You have to have trial and error in one. At 231 00:15:33,447 --> 00:15:35,687 Speaker 5: the moment in the West we have error and trial. 232 00:15:38,207 --> 00:15:40,447 Speaker 1: This all seems like it very neatly ties a bow 233 00:15:40,527 --> 00:15:43,727 Speaker 1: on this story, that it helps us to understand Marceilex 234 00:15:44,247 --> 00:15:49,047 Speaker 1: as the perfect Russian agent of chaos. Except as I 235 00:15:49,127 --> 00:15:53,087 Speaker 1: keep telling you spy stories, they tend to take unexpected terms. 236 00:15:53,887 --> 00:15:56,287 Speaker 1: And the more I delve into the telegram message hall, 237 00:15:56,807 --> 00:15:59,207 Speaker 1: the one from the trial of the Bulgarians in London, 238 00:15:59,887 --> 00:16:02,367 Speaker 1: the more I begin to feel that there's an important 239 00:16:02,527 --> 00:16:06,727 Speaker 1: complication to all of this. Because marcele x relationship with 240 00:16:06,767 --> 00:16:11,727 Speaker 1: the Russian state, it's not entirely straightforward, not entirely to 241 00:16:11,807 --> 00:16:32,647 Speaker 1: clear cut. When I think of the most successful Russian spies, 242 00:16:33,007 --> 00:16:37,447 Speaker 1: of perfect agents being a brit there's someone who instantly 243 00:16:37,487 --> 00:16:41,447 Speaker 1: comes to mind, Kim Philby, one of the most effective 244 00:16:41,487 --> 00:16:45,367 Speaker 1: spies of the Cold War, a Russian mole right at 245 00:16:45,367 --> 00:16:49,847 Speaker 1: the top of British intelligence for years. I don't mean 246 00:16:49,847 --> 00:16:52,007 Speaker 1: to compare mass selector Philby in terms of what they 247 00:16:52,007 --> 00:16:55,127 Speaker 1: did as spies, but just to observe that when Philby 248 00:16:55,127 --> 00:16:57,487 Speaker 1: eventually had to flee to Moscow, he was given a 249 00:16:57,527 --> 00:17:02,727 Speaker 1: hero's welcome, a new official life, a prestigious apartment. And 250 00:17:02,807 --> 00:17:05,047 Speaker 1: that is not what appears to have happened to Yan 251 00:17:05,167 --> 00:17:11,647 Speaker 1: mars elect Take all those passports Paul Murphy and I 252 00:17:11,687 --> 00:17:14,247 Speaker 1: were looking at. When I went back to the messages 253 00:17:14,247 --> 00:17:18,367 Speaker 1: between Yan Marcelek and Orlin Russev marcelexx man in Great Yarmouth, 254 00:17:18,527 --> 00:17:21,887 Speaker 1: the guy helping to run the bulgarianspiring, I started to 255 00:17:21,887 --> 00:17:25,647 Speaker 1: see hints of a different narrative. We've asked a friend 256 00:17:25,647 --> 00:17:27,887 Speaker 1: of the show to read Marcelex's messages. 257 00:17:29,247 --> 00:17:31,287 Speaker 2: The good thing is that French guy even looks a 258 00:17:31,327 --> 00:17:34,327 Speaker 2: bit like me, but we can change the name right. 259 00:17:36,167 --> 00:17:38,207 Speaker 1: They spend a long time discussing how to make this 260 00:17:38,287 --> 00:17:41,247 Speaker 1: passport look real, and they talk about their options to 261 00:17:41,287 --> 00:17:45,287 Speaker 1: get others for Marcelec too. You see in the messages, 262 00:17:45,767 --> 00:17:47,807 Speaker 1: while it's the plots and the schemes that are the 263 00:17:47,807 --> 00:17:51,327 Speaker 1: marmalade droppers, it's actually the crumbs of meaning between the 264 00:17:51,367 --> 00:17:54,447 Speaker 1: headline material that can open up a whole new perspective 265 00:17:54,487 --> 00:17:58,967 Speaker 1: on things. So to me, the implication here is that 266 00:17:59,127 --> 00:18:03,087 Speaker 1: Marcei Lex escape to Russia isn't something that's been organized 267 00:18:03,087 --> 00:18:07,527 Speaker 1: with official sanction, Because Russia's secret services don't seem to 268 00:18:07,527 --> 00:18:11,727 Speaker 1: be automatically furnishing yan Malect with new documents. He's having 269 00:18:11,767 --> 00:18:15,647 Speaker 1: to get them for himself through Rusev and sometimes struggling. 270 00:18:17,647 --> 00:18:20,087 Speaker 1: And this isn't the only thing that tells me Marcelect's 271 00:18:20,087 --> 00:18:27,767 Speaker 1: new life in Moscow is complicated. After mar Select disappeared, 272 00:18:28,047 --> 00:18:30,607 Speaker 1: I suppose we all thought that this two billion euro 273 00:18:30,767 --> 00:18:33,727 Speaker 1: hole in wire cards accounts, at least some of it 274 00:18:33,807 --> 00:18:37,127 Speaker 1: must have been money plundered by him. But in reality, 275 00:18:37,567 --> 00:18:40,647 Speaker 1: in Moscow, at least early on, he seems to be 276 00:18:40,687 --> 00:18:45,367 Speaker 1: having money problems. Here he tells Rusev about his wrangles 277 00:18:45,407 --> 00:18:48,887 Speaker 1: with the FSB, Russia's main domestic intelligence agency. 278 00:18:49,407 --> 00:18:51,887 Speaker 2: Sorry, I was fighting the whole day today with the 279 00:18:51,967 --> 00:18:53,847 Speaker 2: cash crypto guy and the FSB. 280 00:18:54,567 --> 00:18:58,967 Speaker 1: Effing mess He and Rusev discuss in dozens and dozens 281 00:18:58,967 --> 00:19:01,807 Speaker 1: of messages how we might open a bank account in Russia, 282 00:19:02,047 --> 00:19:05,527 Speaker 1: which is near impossible without official documents. They talk about 283 00:19:05,567 --> 00:19:07,807 Speaker 1: how they might use crypto brokers to try and get 284 00:19:07,807 --> 00:19:11,927 Speaker 1: money for him. Marcea Lect tells Russev it's a media 285 00:19:12,047 --> 00:19:15,327 Speaker 1: narrative that he's got tens of millions stashed in bitcoin. 286 00:19:16,087 --> 00:19:18,967 Speaker 1: I ask my colleague Kellen Warrel about what she made 287 00:19:19,047 --> 00:19:21,407 Speaker 1: of all of this, because she covered the trial for 288 00:19:21,447 --> 00:19:24,727 Speaker 1: the ft, but also because she's spent many years covering 289 00:19:24,727 --> 00:19:25,927 Speaker 1: intelligence and security. 290 00:19:27,007 --> 00:19:29,847 Speaker 3: He talks about at one point that the FSB having 291 00:19:29,847 --> 00:19:32,887 Speaker 3: to approve his cleaning lady. So you know, there's obviously 292 00:19:32,927 --> 00:19:37,327 Speaker 3: lots of sort of domestic issues. You know, almost every 293 00:19:37,407 --> 00:19:42,967 Speaker 3: part of his life is somehow constrained and overseen, and 294 00:19:43,047 --> 00:19:45,687 Speaker 3: you get the impression that he's constantly trying to prove 295 00:19:45,767 --> 00:19:48,127 Speaker 3: his use to the FSB and the GRU in a 296 00:19:48,127 --> 00:19:51,567 Speaker 3: way that sort of seems slightly exhausting and also quite 297 00:19:51,647 --> 00:19:54,607 Speaker 3: kind of needy. You can see that he's sort of 298 00:19:54,767 --> 00:19:59,207 Speaker 3: bridling against the idea that he's in captivity. Here before 299 00:19:59,447 --> 00:20:03,887 Speaker 3: obviously he became a wanted person by Germany and Interpol. 300 00:20:04,047 --> 00:20:06,607 Speaker 3: He led this very international lifestyle, and there are signs 301 00:20:06,607 --> 00:20:08,447 Speaker 3: that he's trying to sort of get back to that 302 00:20:09,047 --> 00:20:10,767 Speaker 3: be in quite a constrained way. 303 00:20:12,167 --> 00:20:14,927 Speaker 1: What all of this says to me is that Marcelek 304 00:20:15,047 --> 00:20:18,887 Speaker 1: is not on the book's agent, someone who is controlled 305 00:20:18,887 --> 00:20:23,527 Speaker 1: by Russian intelligence in a formalized way, and it seems 306 00:20:23,647 --> 00:20:26,087 Speaker 1: he's even having to work hard to justify his host's 307 00:20:26,087 --> 00:20:31,127 Speaker 1: continued protection. But maybe there's a flip side to having 308 00:20:31,127 --> 00:20:34,527 Speaker 1: a less structured relationship with the Russian State, a little 309 00:20:34,527 --> 00:20:39,247 Speaker 1: bit more freedom to pursue your own interests where you 310 00:20:39,327 --> 00:20:44,327 Speaker 1: can anyway. In June twenty twenty one, for example, Marcelek 311 00:20:44,407 --> 00:20:47,847 Speaker 1: began discussing a new scheme with Rusev. The Russian state 312 00:20:48,047 --> 00:20:49,887 Speaker 1: will need to be kept informed. 313 00:20:50,047 --> 00:20:52,447 Speaker 2: And waiting for input from our friends. 314 00:20:53,087 --> 00:20:55,487 Speaker 1: And indeed they will be a client in this scheme. 315 00:20:55,967 --> 00:20:58,767 Speaker 1: That the scheme primarily will be a money making operation, 316 00:20:59,247 --> 00:21:03,007 Speaker 1: with Marcelek and Rusev as the middlemen to sell arms 317 00:21:03,247 --> 00:21:07,927 Speaker 1: to clients in Africa. Rusev tells Marcelekt his contacts want 318 00:21:07,927 --> 00:21:11,007 Speaker 1: to spend up to sixty million guns and other weapons. 319 00:21:11,407 --> 00:21:13,447 Speaker 1: He's already organized a test run for the route, he 320 00:21:13,487 --> 00:21:19,047 Speaker 1: says via Dubai. They will be paying in diamonds fancy rebels. 321 00:21:19,687 --> 00:21:23,367 Speaker 1: Marcelek evidently sends a further opportunity if they can not 322 00:21:23,567 --> 00:21:26,727 Speaker 1: just transport the arms but also sell them themselves. 323 00:21:27,127 --> 00:21:29,287 Speaker 2: Do they have a supplier for the guns and vehicles 324 00:21:29,447 --> 00:21:32,247 Speaker 2: or can we become an end to end supplier which 325 00:21:32,247 --> 00:21:33,927 Speaker 2: you also provide training if needed. 326 00:21:34,807 --> 00:21:37,007 Speaker 1: Neither of them cares who these weapons are going to. 327 00:21:37,527 --> 00:21:41,447 Speaker 1: Marceelek asks if it's a government backed force, and Russev replies, 328 00:21:41,807 --> 00:21:46,207 Speaker 1: who knows. Then the letters TIA, which stands for this 329 00:21:46,367 --> 00:21:49,087 Speaker 1: is Africa. It's a quote he likes to use, he 330 00:21:49,127 --> 00:21:56,127 Speaker 1: tells Marcelek from the movie Blood Diamond. This kind of scheme, 331 00:21:56,327 --> 00:21:59,607 Speaker 1: It's not a one off. Marcelek is also involved in 332 00:21:59,647 --> 00:22:02,167 Speaker 1: setting up a back channel to get weaponry from China 333 00:22:02,207 --> 00:22:06,567 Speaker 1: to Russia, drones for example, or ways to smuggle microchips 334 00:22:06,567 --> 00:22:07,487 Speaker 1: into the country too. 335 00:22:08,367 --> 00:22:10,647 Speaker 3: I mean, I would say that the things that involve 336 00:22:10,727 --> 00:22:14,047 Speaker 3: making money are things that ruceven Masslect come up between themselves, 337 00:22:14,087 --> 00:22:18,607 Speaker 3: sort of brokering arms deals, you know, trying to get 338 00:22:18,647 --> 00:22:24,007 Speaker 3: weapons from China to Russia to help on the Ukraine 339 00:22:24,007 --> 00:22:25,967 Speaker 3: battlefields in a kind of deniable way. So I would 340 00:22:25,967 --> 00:22:28,807 Speaker 3: say they're money making schemes are things that they suggest 341 00:22:28,927 --> 00:22:30,687 Speaker 3: rather than things that come down from the top. 342 00:22:31,647 --> 00:22:34,727 Speaker 1: And many of these schemes involve offering kickbacks to men 343 00:22:34,767 --> 00:22:37,687 Speaker 1: that the GRU and the FSB in order to get 344 00:22:37,687 --> 00:22:41,407 Speaker 1: them off the ground. As Marcelek tells, Russev is new 345 00:22:41,447 --> 00:22:42,207 Speaker 1: life in Russia. 346 00:22:42,607 --> 00:22:46,007 Speaker 2: It's like a Russian matriosh goa dol of motivations within 347 00:22:46,127 --> 00:22:47,167 Speaker 2: secret ambitions. 348 00:22:52,407 --> 00:22:54,607 Speaker 1: You may have had a Russian matriosh Go dole when 349 00:22:54,607 --> 00:22:57,207 Speaker 1: you were a kid. They're those wooden dolls that have 350 00:22:57,247 --> 00:23:01,327 Speaker 1: a series of slightly smaller dolls within them. Marcelek reportedly 351 00:23:01,367 --> 00:23:04,447 Speaker 1: had a set in his office featuring great Russian leaders 352 00:23:04,447 --> 00:23:08,207 Speaker 1: past and present. The novelty is I suppose that you're 353 00:23:08,287 --> 00:23:11,607 Speaker 1: never sure, and you've reached the innermost doll, the core 354 00:23:11,767 --> 00:23:15,847 Speaker 1: of something in this story. I've sometimes had the feeling 355 00:23:15,847 --> 00:23:18,727 Speaker 1: that we never will that. With Anne Marcelek and his 356 00:23:18,807 --> 00:23:23,007 Speaker 1: many personas, the surprises will just keep coming. Even so, 357 00:23:23,487 --> 00:23:26,847 Speaker 1: I wasn't quite prepared for the next one, which came 358 00:23:26,887 --> 00:23:29,727 Speaker 1: to light at the end of the Bulgarian trial at 359 00:23:29,727 --> 00:23:42,007 Speaker 1: their sentencing in May. All In Russerve appeared in court 360 00:23:42,087 --> 00:23:45,007 Speaker 1: to be sentenced. At the outset of the trial. He 361 00:23:45,087 --> 00:23:48,287 Speaker 1: had pled guilty, but his lawyer had a wild card 362 00:23:48,327 --> 00:23:50,407 Speaker 1: to play a plea for mitigation. 363 00:23:51,407 --> 00:23:54,287 Speaker 3: This was a very surprising development, I have to say. 364 00:23:55,567 --> 00:23:57,407 Speaker 3: It was also, I would say he quite a sort 365 00:23:57,447 --> 00:24:03,207 Speaker 3: of bold and risky gambit by Russev's lawyer. He essentially 366 00:24:03,527 --> 00:24:09,247 Speaker 3: told the court that Marslek had received a request from 367 00:24:09,407 --> 00:24:15,447 Speaker 3: CIA to help airlift some US personnel from Carbul during 368 00:24:15,767 --> 00:24:19,247 Speaker 3: the military withdrawal in the in August of twenty twenty one. 369 00:24:23,767 --> 00:24:28,407 Speaker 1: So that is quite the claim Marcelek contracting for the CIA, 370 00:24:28,967 --> 00:24:32,807 Speaker 1: working on demand for the arch nemesis of his Russian paymasters. 371 00:24:34,567 --> 00:24:37,447 Speaker 1: Russev's defense made the case that getting Americans out of 372 00:24:37,487 --> 00:24:41,167 Speaker 1: Carbull was a humanitarian action and showed that he deserved 373 00:24:41,167 --> 00:24:43,767 Speaker 1: a more lenient sentence because he had been willing to 374 00:24:43,767 --> 00:24:46,487 Speaker 1: help out Western interests too when it was a question 375 00:24:46,567 --> 00:24:51,087 Speaker 1: of saving people's lives. You might recall the situation. After 376 00:24:51,127 --> 00:24:55,007 Speaker 1: nearly twenty years, the US military was withdrawing from Afghanistan, 377 00:24:55,607 --> 00:24:59,047 Speaker 1: but the final months of that process were chaotic. The 378 00:24:59,087 --> 00:25:04,407 Speaker 1: Taliban unexpectedly surged towards Karbl, the capital. Thousands of Westerners 379 00:25:04,407 --> 00:25:07,407 Speaker 1: and many Afghanis who had worked with them were desperate 380 00:25:07,447 --> 00:25:10,327 Speaker 1: to flee, and there simply weren't enough flights out of 381 00:25:10,367 --> 00:25:16,767 Speaker 1: the country. The prosecution told the judge that Rusev's whole 382 00:25:16,847 --> 00:25:20,607 Speaker 1: argument was wrong. Firstly, they said there was no evidence 383 00:25:20,647 --> 00:25:23,847 Speaker 1: that the CIA ever made such a request, and second 384 00:25:24,127 --> 00:25:26,727 Speaker 1: they poured cold water on the idea that Roucev had 385 00:25:26,727 --> 00:25:29,727 Speaker 1: some kind of humanitarian conscience at his center. 386 00:25:30,527 --> 00:25:34,167 Speaker 3: I mean, obviously the prosecution came back absolutely full throttle. 387 00:25:33,847 --> 00:25:37,967 Speaker 1: Against this as they really tried to slap it down. 388 00:25:38,167 --> 00:25:40,327 Speaker 3: They did, and you know, they said, look, this is 389 00:25:40,367 --> 00:25:44,087 Speaker 3: not evidence of a humanitarian motivation. It just shows that 390 00:25:44,127 --> 00:25:47,767 Speaker 3: these people were motivated by money and they do whatever 391 00:25:47,807 --> 00:25:51,647 Speaker 3: work was necessary by whoever was prepared to pay them. 392 00:25:51,967 --> 00:25:56,007 Speaker 3: And you know, the idea that somehow they were as 393 00:25:56,087 --> 00:25:58,607 Speaker 3: happy to work for the CIA as they were for 394 00:25:58,687 --> 00:26:04,087 Speaker 3: the GRU or the FSB was sort of a misleading idea. 395 00:26:04,807 --> 00:26:08,407 Speaker 1: The thing is, though, this wild claim about the airlift 396 00:26:08,487 --> 00:26:11,967 Speaker 1: made by the defense barrister in court, it's all there 397 00:26:12,007 --> 00:26:15,367 Speaker 1: in black and white in the telegram messages between Rusev 398 00:26:15,407 --> 00:26:17,327 Speaker 1: and Marsilek from the time. 399 00:26:18,287 --> 00:26:21,367 Speaker 2: Interesting request from ours sort of friends at the CIA. 400 00:26:22,367 --> 00:26:26,527 Speaker 1: This is Marcelek writing to Russev on August seventeenth, twenty 401 00:26:26,607 --> 00:26:30,407 Speaker 1: twenty one, three days after the evacuation of Carbel began. 402 00:26:30,927 --> 00:26:36,367 Speaker 2: They urgently need aircraft to fly out contractors from Afghanistan. Apparently, 403 00:26:36,447 --> 00:26:39,647 Speaker 2: all dodgy airlift companies in Russia and Turkey, et cetera 404 00:26:39,767 --> 00:26:43,047 Speaker 2: are already sold out or refuse to fly because insurance 405 00:26:43,087 --> 00:26:45,687 Speaker 2: won't cover the loss of an aircraft. Do you know 406 00:26:45,767 --> 00:26:48,887 Speaker 2: anyone who's a bit rogue and operates large scale airplanes? 407 00:26:50,167 --> 00:26:52,927 Speaker 1: Now, Rusev he does know people who can fly planes. 408 00:26:53,287 --> 00:26:56,087 Speaker 1: He replies that his father operated as a pilot of 409 00:26:56,167 --> 00:26:59,727 Speaker 1: fortune for years and has lots of experience in quote 410 00:26:59,927 --> 00:27:05,247 Speaker 1: exotic locations like running guns into Africa. He writes, it 411 00:27:05,287 --> 00:27:08,487 Speaker 1: will be tricky, though. Rusev tells Marcelek the situation on 412 00:27:08,527 --> 00:27:12,807 Speaker 1: the ground in Afghani Pistan is a nightmare. Marcelegg replies, 413 00:27:13,567 --> 00:27:15,647 Speaker 1: America needs you, Pax. 414 00:27:15,727 --> 00:27:18,887 Speaker 2: Americana rests on your broad and manly shoulders. 415 00:27:20,207 --> 00:27:23,847 Speaker 1: There's evidently some tongue in cheek here, but the telegram messages. 416 00:27:24,287 --> 00:27:26,567 Speaker 1: The more of them I read, the less they seem 417 00:27:26,647 --> 00:27:30,447 Speaker 1: like a joke. There's so much detail here. They discuss 418 00:27:30,527 --> 00:27:35,207 Speaker 1: plane types, costs, timing, permissions for landings, and airspace access. 419 00:27:35,607 --> 00:27:38,967 Speaker 2: Just discussing with the Americans. Apparently since eleven am today 420 00:27:39,007 --> 00:27:41,727 Speaker 2: the airport is okay and fifteen military. 421 00:27:41,287 --> 00:27:42,447 Speaker 1: Aircraft took off today. 422 00:27:43,287 --> 00:27:44,727 Speaker 2: But it can change any moment. 423 00:27:48,207 --> 00:27:50,367 Speaker 1: I can't tell you what did or didn't happen in 424 00:27:50,367 --> 00:27:53,447 Speaker 1: car Bull regarding these flights. In the end, but I 425 00:27:53,487 --> 00:27:59,887 Speaker 1: have three hypotheses. One, Marcelek has himself been duped. The 426 00:27:59,887 --> 00:28:02,687 Speaker 1: people he's talking to aren't really anything to do with 427 00:28:02,727 --> 00:28:07,567 Speaker 1: the CIA. Two he's lying either because he's trying to 428 00:28:07,607 --> 00:28:11,527 Speaker 1: impress Rusev or because it's part of some disinformation ploy 429 00:28:12,847 --> 00:28:16,767 Speaker 1: or Three it's true he really was trying to set 430 00:28:16,847 --> 00:28:19,967 Speaker 1: up flights for people at the CIA, or at least 431 00:28:20,047 --> 00:28:26,847 Speaker 1: people close to it. But then something else came to mind, 432 00:28:27,647 --> 00:28:32,727 Speaker 1: something which happened way back in the winter of twenty eighteen. Paul, 433 00:28:32,767 --> 00:28:39,047 Speaker 1: do you remember the uncles? I do. I'm chatting with 434 00:28:39,087 --> 00:28:42,007 Speaker 1: Paul Murphy again, my former editor, about a lead we 435 00:28:42,047 --> 00:28:45,727 Speaker 1: had been given about Martlek. At the time, we set 436 00:28:45,767 --> 00:28:49,407 Speaker 1: it aside because it was just a single fleck of evidence, 437 00:28:49,567 --> 00:28:51,887 Speaker 1: and frankly, we had our hands full. 438 00:28:53,367 --> 00:28:57,047 Speaker 4: We were at that point of intense coverage of the 439 00:28:57,087 --> 00:29:00,887 Speaker 4: wire card fraud story, and suddenly, out of the blue, 440 00:29:01,007 --> 00:29:06,727 Speaker 4: I got an email from somebody anonymously saying that they 441 00:29:06,887 --> 00:29:13,407 Speaker 4: had been looked into an email conversation accidentally, and I 442 00:29:13,487 --> 00:29:15,487 Speaker 4: might be interested in the content. 443 00:29:15,607 --> 00:29:17,887 Speaker 1: Being looked in, as in, someone had typed the wrong 444 00:29:17,927 --> 00:29:20,047 Speaker 1: email address and they they had sent it to. 445 00:29:20,007 --> 00:29:21,647 Speaker 4: Them precisely precisely. 446 00:29:21,687 --> 00:29:25,567 Speaker 1: There the person who accidentally received this chain of emails 447 00:29:26,047 --> 00:29:30,487 Speaker 1: was a software engineer based in Hong Kong. Paul dispatched 448 00:29:30,487 --> 00:29:33,687 Speaker 1: a reporter to meet this person. The software engineer didn't 449 00:29:33,727 --> 00:29:36,727 Speaker 1: want to forward the emails electronically, so they gave the 450 00:29:36,767 --> 00:29:41,007 Speaker 1: reporter hard copies and the reporter faxed them to Paul. 451 00:29:41,807 --> 00:29:46,767 Speaker 4: And quite extraordinary. It was a series of emails between 452 00:29:47,047 --> 00:29:52,607 Speaker 4: a group of I assume men who referred to themselves 453 00:29:52,687 --> 00:29:57,327 Speaker 4: as the uncles, and they were talking to Jan, who 454 00:29:57,407 --> 00:30:00,487 Speaker 4: had been put in touch with them to get advice 455 00:30:00,727 --> 00:30:03,127 Speaker 4: on a particular challenge. 456 00:30:03,167 --> 00:30:05,767 Speaker 1: Paul and I dug up the emails. Here's the first 457 00:30:05,767 --> 00:30:09,567 Speaker 1: message Jan Marcelex sends to the uncles. Gentlemen, it is 458 00:30:09,607 --> 00:30:13,967 Speaker 1: a great pleasure meeting you exclamation mark. Our mutual friend 459 00:30:14,007 --> 00:30:16,567 Speaker 1: speaks very highly of you, and I look forward to 460 00:30:16,647 --> 00:30:20,527 Speaker 1: meeting you in person one day. Thank you for introducing 461 00:30:20,567 --> 00:30:24,727 Speaker 1: us and your kind introductory words. Marcelett goes on to 462 00:30:24,767 --> 00:30:27,807 Speaker 1: explain why he's getting in touch. He needs help with 463 00:30:27,847 --> 00:30:30,487 Speaker 1: a project he's working on, an attempt to move the 464 00:30:30,527 --> 00:30:33,807 Speaker 1: Austrian embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. 465 00:30:33,967 --> 00:30:36,727 Speaker 4: It's been suggested that you may be able to provide 466 00:30:36,807 --> 00:30:40,807 Speaker 4: us with advice on how to establish an informal channel 467 00:30:40,887 --> 00:30:45,167 Speaker 4: to explore the United States position on the subject, and 468 00:30:45,247 --> 00:30:49,727 Speaker 4: to provide guidance on how to navigate the complexities of 469 00:30:49,767 --> 00:30:54,927 Speaker 4: the issue within the international community. Also, any assistance in 470 00:30:55,007 --> 00:30:59,007 Speaker 4: shaping the domestic dialogue on the subject in Austria would 471 00:30:59,007 --> 00:31:02,687 Speaker 4: be appreciated. Suffice to say that moving embassies in Israel 472 00:31:02,727 --> 00:31:05,287 Speaker 4: has become a symbolic issue for some parts of the 473 00:31:05,327 --> 00:31:09,167 Speaker 4: far right in both Austria and the US. With that 474 00:31:09,327 --> 00:31:13,047 Speaker 4: in mind, the big question is who are the uncles? 475 00:31:16,647 --> 00:31:19,687 Speaker 4: There are kind of whatever the five or six email 476 00:31:19,727 --> 00:31:27,727 Speaker 4: addresses all proton mail addresses. We were able to identify 477 00:31:28,767 --> 00:31:29,967 Speaker 4: a number of these. 478 00:31:30,647 --> 00:31:33,727 Speaker 1: Because there's there's sort of giveaway snippets of information in 479 00:31:33,767 --> 00:31:37,567 Speaker 1: the emails themselves that allow us to assign identities to 480 00:31:37,687 --> 00:31:42,047 Speaker 1: these these different people in this email chain right with 481 00:31:42,247 --> 00:31:46,167 Speaker 1: a relatively high degree of confidence of who they are. 482 00:31:46,287 --> 00:31:49,167 Speaker 1: And we don't want to mention them for legal reasons 483 00:31:49,167 --> 00:31:52,407 Speaker 1: at this stage, but I mean, you can tell us 484 00:31:52,567 --> 00:31:55,487 Speaker 1: about who these kind of people are, what kind of 485 00:31:55,527 --> 00:31:56,367 Speaker 1: world they move in. 486 00:31:56,727 --> 00:31:59,687 Speaker 4: Okay, So one of them is a very senior former 487 00:32:00,007 --> 00:32:07,567 Speaker 4: CIA officer, somebody who oversaw active operations in a certain 488 00:32:08,167 --> 00:32:12,447 Speaker 4: theater of war. Another one is a former US ambassador. 489 00:32:13,807 --> 00:32:19,247 Speaker 4: We're talking here about people who were basically x US military, 490 00:32:19,647 --> 00:32:25,127 Speaker 4: x US intelligence, all talking together online and calling themselves 491 00:32:25,207 --> 00:32:31,807 Speaker 4: as a group the Uncles. The fact is we didn't 492 00:32:32,167 --> 00:32:33,967 Speaker 4: know what to make of this at the time. 493 00:32:34,127 --> 00:32:37,087 Speaker 1: No, it was just so weird because you know, we thought, Okay, 494 00:32:37,127 --> 00:32:39,927 Speaker 1: we've got other stuff on our plate, and this is 495 00:32:39,967 --> 00:32:44,287 Speaker 1: so tangential to what we're doing. And then seven years 496 00:32:44,367 --> 00:32:47,607 Speaker 1: later the messages about this airlift in Carbul came to light, 497 00:32:48,207 --> 00:32:50,287 Speaker 1: and I began to wonder whether there was some kind 498 00:32:50,327 --> 00:32:54,047 Speaker 1: of network here, after all, a group with links to 499 00:32:54,087 --> 00:32:58,167 Speaker 1: the CIA that marce Lek had somehow found his way into, 500 00:32:58,767 --> 00:33:02,127 Speaker 1: maybe a group who shared some particular geopolitical views on 501 00:33:02,167 --> 00:33:08,967 Speaker 1: the world and values. This great line, let's please remember 502 00:33:09,007 --> 00:33:12,007 Speaker 1: that we should also pay some attention to financial opportunities 503 00:33:12,327 --> 00:33:16,047 Speaker 1: while you all play your game of thrones. It's which 504 00:33:16,207 --> 00:33:19,527 Speaker 1: encapsulates for me the kind of like this, this kind 505 00:33:19,527 --> 00:33:22,247 Speaker 1: of weird world that these people are in where they 506 00:33:22,287 --> 00:33:26,767 Speaker 1: are simultaneously looking for opportunities to make money through corruption 507 00:33:27,087 --> 00:33:31,007 Speaker 1: and you know, dodgy dealing business, and also they're looking 508 00:33:31,087 --> 00:33:34,727 Speaker 1: to kind of you know, exert geopolitical leverage and change 509 00:33:35,367 --> 00:33:39,127 Speaker 1: through informal means, through back channels, through through people like 510 00:33:39,207 --> 00:33:39,927 Speaker 1: Yan Marcelek. 511 00:33:40,367 --> 00:33:44,967 Speaker 4: There's a real sense here that Jan was actually knitted 512 00:33:45,007 --> 00:33:45,727 Speaker 4: into this group. 513 00:33:46,047 --> 00:33:48,847 Speaker 1: Yeah, what we don't have is any you know, huge 514 00:33:48,887 --> 00:33:51,087 Speaker 1: trove of evidence. But what we do have is kind 515 00:33:51,127 --> 00:33:54,327 Speaker 1: of an intuition that there's something here. There's the shadow 516 00:33:54,367 --> 00:33:57,647 Speaker 1: of some kind of network or world or you know, 517 00:33:58,367 --> 00:34:03,087 Speaker 1: group of people that crosses countries that Marcelek is involved with. 518 00:34:03,207 --> 00:34:18,887 Speaker 1: And this isn't just a Russia thing anymore. When I 519 00:34:18,927 --> 00:34:21,087 Speaker 1: think of many of the people I've learned about as 520 00:34:21,087 --> 00:34:24,927 Speaker 1: I've reported on this series, people who've been cultivated by 521 00:34:24,967 --> 00:34:30,127 Speaker 1: Marcelek and who have cultivated him money, power, and risk, 522 00:34:31,047 --> 00:34:35,047 Speaker 1: those seem to be what motivates them all. But actually, 523 00:34:35,567 --> 00:34:39,487 Speaker 1: something else, I think is behind the pursuit of those things. 524 00:34:39,527 --> 00:34:42,727 Speaker 1: The key something we've been bumping up against for this 525 00:34:42,967 --> 00:34:50,487 Speaker 1: entire series disdain for the way the ordinary world operates, 526 00:34:50,527 --> 00:34:54,967 Speaker 1: for living by the rules, being limited by them. I 527 00:34:55,007 --> 00:34:59,047 Speaker 1: mean this both as a psychological characteristic but also as 528 00:34:59,087 --> 00:35:02,607 Speaker 1: a broader political one that you might better describe as 529 00:35:02,927 --> 00:35:09,967 Speaker 1: anti establishmentism, a political belief that things need to be undermined, broken, 530 00:35:11,607 --> 00:35:14,167 Speaker 1: for Yan Marcelect, I've come to understand this as a 531 00:35:14,207 --> 00:35:16,767 Speaker 1: big part of his view of the world. A gifted, 532 00:35:16,807 --> 00:35:19,487 Speaker 1: if flawed young man, but someone whose pursuit of what 533 00:35:19,607 --> 00:35:22,567 Speaker 1: made him different fed a deep cynicism about what he 534 00:35:22,607 --> 00:35:25,247 Speaker 1: saw as the pieties of the world most people lived in, 535 00:35:28,207 --> 00:35:30,607 Speaker 1: and he sought out worlds that seemed to expose that 536 00:35:31,287 --> 00:35:34,767 Speaker 1: a payment processing company making its money from gambling and 537 00:35:34,847 --> 00:35:39,967 Speaker 1: pawn the ease of establishing a vast international fraud, and 538 00:35:40,087 --> 00:35:46,527 Speaker 1: of course spying. It's one of the biggest seductions of 539 00:35:46,567 --> 00:35:50,167 Speaker 1: spying that you're inducted into a secret club the people 540 00:35:50,167 --> 00:35:54,607 Speaker 1: who really run the world, people who make decisions and 541 00:35:54,727 --> 00:35:57,647 Speaker 1: don't have to follow the normal moral rules of society. 542 00:36:00,967 --> 00:36:03,807 Speaker 1: When I first heard about Yan Marcelect, I felt he 543 00:36:03,847 --> 00:36:07,407 Speaker 1: was the key to understanding something about Russia, the country 544 00:36:07,407 --> 00:36:10,767 Speaker 1: that first lured him, in country whose government had turned 545 00:36:10,807 --> 00:36:15,007 Speaker 1: disdain against the liberal world order into its entire mode 546 00:36:15,047 --> 00:36:19,167 Speaker 1: of statecraft. But actually, what I now think is that 547 00:36:19,447 --> 00:36:22,647 Speaker 1: it's not just a story about Russia. It's a story 548 00:36:22,687 --> 00:36:28,647 Speaker 1: about us too, because this disdain, this anger against the establishment, 549 00:36:29,407 --> 00:36:33,487 Speaker 1: it's spread. It's no longer something in the shadowy world 550 00:36:33,527 --> 00:36:38,407 Speaker 1: of crime and clandestine political networks. It's a political force, 551 00:36:39,207 --> 00:36:47,767 Speaker 1: it's a way of doing business. Funnily enough, I think 552 00:36:47,847 --> 00:36:51,367 Speaker 1: it was Killian Kleinschmidt, who we met in Tunisia, who 553 00:36:51,407 --> 00:36:55,127 Speaker 1: first latched onto this notion fitting I suppose, given that 554 00:36:55,207 --> 00:36:57,567 Speaker 1: he was the first to give me an insight into 555 00:36:57,607 --> 00:36:59,567 Speaker 1: the destructive life of Jan Marselekt. 556 00:37:00,567 --> 00:37:06,487 Speaker 6: That's his kick, that's his Adrinavin. It's like playing a video. 557 00:37:06,167 --> 00:37:06,967 Speaker 4: Game or something. 558 00:37:08,807 --> 00:37:12,007 Speaker 6: The rules based world is increasingly collapsing, so it gives 559 00:37:12,047 --> 00:37:15,687 Speaker 6: also more and more space for this. That's what has 560 00:37:15,687 --> 00:37:17,727 Speaker 6: been happening over the last three years. 561 00:37:17,767 --> 00:37:20,327 Speaker 1: So it's kind of it's Yan's world out there. 562 00:37:21,647 --> 00:37:23,847 Speaker 6: The Yan's world becomes the normal. 563 00:37:25,767 --> 00:37:29,687 Speaker 1: Marcelek and people like him. They are agents of chaos. 564 00:37:30,687 --> 00:37:34,287 Speaker 1: They're playing a game against the world they were born into, 565 00:37:37,287 --> 00:37:49,607 Speaker 1: and they're winning. Hot Money is a production of The 566 00:37:49,607 --> 00:37:54,167 Speaker 1: Financial Times and Pushkin Industries. It was written and reported 567 00:37:54,327 --> 00:37:58,407 Speaker 1: by me Sam Jones. The senior producer and co writer 568 00:37:58,607 --> 00:38:03,207 Speaker 1: is Peggy Sutton. Our producer is Izzy Carter. Our researcher 569 00:38:03,447 --> 00:38:07,407 Speaker 1: is Marine Saint. Our show is edited by Karen Shakerji, 570 00:38:08,607 --> 00:38:13,087 Speaker 1: fact check by Kira Levigne, sound design and mastering by 571 00:38:13,167 --> 00:38:17,247 Speaker 1: Jake Gorsky and Marcelo de Olivia, with additional sound design 572 00:38:17,567 --> 00:38:21,527 Speaker 1: by Izzy Carter. Original music from Matthias Bossi and John 573 00:38:21,567 --> 00:38:26,047 Speaker 1: Evans of Stellwagen Symphonet. Our show art is by Sean Carney. 574 00:38:26,727 --> 00:38:31,327 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Cheryl Brumley, Amy Gains McQuaid and 575 00:38:31,407 --> 00:38:36,807 Speaker 1: Matthew Garahan. Additional editing by Paul Murphy. Special thanks to 576 00:38:36,887 --> 00:38:42,687 Speaker 1: Ruler Calaffe, Dan McCrumb, Laura Clark, Alistair Mackey, Manuela Saragosa, 577 00:38:43,167 --> 00:38:47,167 Speaker 1: Nigel Hanson, Vicki Merrick, with special thanks to the Studio 578 00:38:47,287 --> 00:38:51,407 Speaker 1: Audio Berlin and to James Morris who read Jan Marceleg's messages, 579 00:38:51,807 --> 00:38:57,527 Speaker 1: and Eric Sandler, Morgan Ratner, Jake Flanagan, Jacob Goldstein, Sarah 580 00:38:57,607 --> 00:39:11,007 Speaker 1: Nix and Greta Cohne. I'm Sam Jones. I want to 581 00:39:11,047 --> 00:39:13,167 Speaker 1: take a moment to thank you for being a pushkin 582 00:39:13,207 --> 00:39:16,727 Speaker 1: Plus subscriber. I hope you are enjoying hot money. Be 583 00:39:16,807 --> 00:39:19,647 Speaker 1: sure to take advantage of all pushkin Plus has to offer, 584 00:39:20,047 --> 00:39:24,007 Speaker 1: including add free access to all pushkin shows, bonus episodes, 585 00:39:24,287 --> 00:39:29,287 Speaker 1: early access, exclusive binges, and full audiobooks. After this episode