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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, unloving father of four brutally

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Speaker 1: bludgeoned dead, an innocent Cabby, a taxi driver trying to

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Speaker 1: make a living, working all kind of hours, day and

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Speaker 1: night to support his wife and four children. He's dead

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Speaker 1: and I want to know why. I'm Nancy Grace. This

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Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here

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Speaker 1: at Fox Station in series X one eleven. First of all,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to our friends at Fox five. Police

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Speaker 1: continue their search for the suspects who murdered a taxi driver,

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Speaker 1: now his widow heartbroken, speaking out a good good man,

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Speaker 1: it was my big bond. I'm loth grade. Note. These

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Speaker 1: are four children that are going to grow up with

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Speaker 1: no father, and I'm angry because this could have all

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Speaker 1: been avoided. We need to look around us and say

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Speaker 1: what city are we living in? Four children left behind

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Speaker 1: without a father. A murder like this doesn't just claim

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Speaker 1: the life of the murder victim. The victims' families live

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Speaker 1: through the wake of pain that the purps have left behind.

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Speaker 1: Four children, and listen to their ages eight, seven, five,

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Speaker 1: and three. The three year old may not ever even

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Speaker 1: remember dad. And you know another thing about that? Little

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Speaker 1: children somehow always think it's their fault whatever happened. For instance,

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Speaker 1: where there's a divorce, the child thinks it's my fault

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Speaker 1: I cause daddy or mommy to leave. Much less in

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Speaker 1: a case like this, they may grow up thinking, Wow,

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Speaker 1: my dad was working night and day as a cab

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Speaker 1: driver to support me. Well, this is my fault. If

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Speaker 1: it weren't for me, he wouldn't have been working those

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Speaker 1: crazy hours. And then the wife left to raise the

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Speaker 1: children alone. This is a tragedy beyond so many normal proportions.

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Speaker 1: But what happened. Take a listen to our friend Rosanna

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Speaker 1: at Scotte Fox five. Police say early Saturday morning, he

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Speaker 1: was dropping off five passengers along Beach fifty fourth Street

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Speaker 1: in Far Rockaway. Investigators say the passengers did not pay

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Speaker 1: their fare, they tried to rob him. That's when police

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Speaker 1: say this cab driver chased them. He was hit in

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Speaker 1: the back of the head by one of those suspects.

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Speaker 1: He fell to the ground, lost consciousness. He died at

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Speaker 1: the hospital. Dad at the hospital. Now listen to our

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Speaker 1: friend Aston Martinez CBS two and our friend Alicia Read.

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Speaker 1: With the final punch, Gemma falls to the ground. The

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Speaker 1: husband and father of four died from severe head trauma.

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Speaker 1: My husband was a good man. It was everything we had.

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Speaker 1: Who was my Childre's bureau witnesses say he started chasing

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Speaker 1: them three males and two females, when he was hit

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Speaker 1: in the back of the head. The taxi driver fell

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Speaker 1: to the ground, hit his head and lost consciousness. He

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Speaker 1: later died at Saint John's Hospital. Joining me an all

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Speaker 1: star panel of guests makes sense of what we know

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Speaker 1: right now. But first let me go to a special guest.

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Speaker 1: It's Tina Moore, our friend and colleague, the New York

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Speaker 1: Post Police Bureau Chief of the New York Post. Tina,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. What can you tell

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Speaker 1: me about this dad a four and this brutal death.

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Speaker 1: So he gave was it five people a ride? Then

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Speaker 1: they tried to rob him and took off right. They

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Speaker 1: tried to run without paying the fare. That's really how

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Speaker 1: it started. You know what, I started with a pointed question.

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Speaker 1: You start at the beginning and tell me, Tina more

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Speaker 1: what happened. So the five people, they tried to run

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Speaker 1: without paying the fare. That's how this really got started.

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Speaker 1: He chased them, you know, he wanted to get paid.

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Speaker 1: He worked really hard, long hours and one of them

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Speaker 1: hit him. One of them, young men, twenty year old,

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Speaker 1: allegedly hit him and he hit the ground. And that's

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Speaker 1: you know, when you think of the hospital and died.

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Speaker 1: You know, this guy, this father hutin supporting four people

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Speaker 1: working crazy hours. One of five delivers a fatal blow

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Speaker 1: to his head that knocks him unconscious. Believe it or not.

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Speaker 1: The five include three girls girl and you can see

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Speaker 1: them in video taken I guess by bystanders beating kicking

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Speaker 1: this unarmed cab driver the data four in the head,

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Speaker 1: the side, the stomach. It looks like a violent gangland

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Speaker 1: movie where the victim is lying on the floor, cringing,

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Speaker 1: going in a fetal position, and the kicks and the

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Speaker 1: hits just keep on coming. To Tina Moore joining us

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Speaker 1: from the New York Post Police Bureau. Tina, who took

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Speaker 1: the video surveillance video. Nancy, from the scene, you're talking

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Speaker 1: about the girls, I feel like and this is really

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Speaker 1: just a violence for a violent sake, it seems like,

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Speaker 1: which is terrible. I doubt the girls realize that your

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Speaker 1: discussions though, I you know, I'm sure only that man

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Speaker 1: who hit him it's going to get charged with murder

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Speaker 1: or some level of manslaughter. Well, I have to say

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Speaker 1: I disagree joining me, Peter Smith, with the losses of

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Speaker 1: Ken Belkin, joining us out of New York. His specialty

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Speaker 1: one of them criminal defense, and you can find him

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Speaker 1: at Belkin Law. No. No, I am not going to

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Speaker 1: be happy with just the one person that delivered the

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Speaker 1: final fatal blow being charged with murder. Oh e double

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Speaker 1: l n Oh, that's felony murder. They were all acting together.

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Speaker 1: For instance, Peter, if you and I go into let's

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Speaker 1: just pretend Chase Manhattan. You're in New York, right. We

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Speaker 1: go in and I've got a gun. Let's just pick

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Speaker 1: an oozy. No, let's go with a sawt off shotgun

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Speaker 1: because I can easily hide that in my armpit. So

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Speaker 1: we go into the bank, and you tell me right

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Speaker 1: before we go in, remember nobody gets hurt. To make sure, sure, sure,

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Speaker 1: let's just get the money. We go in and all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, I go hey wire and I opened

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Speaker 1: fire with my easy and gun down the two security

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Speaker 1: guards and a teller and an innocent person cashing their check.

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Speaker 1: And you're like, what did I just tell you? Guess

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Speaker 1: what you're going down for? Murder to Peter. That is correct, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: That is what you're describing there as felony murder, and

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Speaker 1: that is a murder that is committed during the act

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Speaker 1: of or commission of a felony. So by going into

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Speaker 1: the bank and intending to rob it and commit a felony.

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Speaker 1: If there's a murder that takes place that I didn't anticipate,

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Speaker 1: I didn't think was going to happen, I had no

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Speaker 1: intent whatsoever, it doesn't matter. It's one of the few

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Speaker 1: crimes where the men's rare, which is the intent of

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Speaker 1: the crime doesn't matter because you're already in the act

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Speaker 1: of a felony. And you said something interesting, You said,

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Speaker 1: a murder that occurs during the commission of a crime.

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Speaker 1: But I understand and felony murder to be a death

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Speaker 1: that occurs during the commission of a club. Let's go

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Speaker 1: on with our bank scenario. Okay, you're a mad because

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Speaker 1: I shot four people. Then we get in the car

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't in there, I'm driving the getaway car

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Speaker 1: and I run over somebody by accident as my twinslay on.

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Speaker 1: Accident that was entirely not part of the plan. That

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Speaker 1: is also felony murder because a death occurs even unintentionally

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Speaker 1: during the commission of a felony a bank robbery. What

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Speaker 1: about that, Peter Smith, Nancy had to say, you're correct

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Speaker 1: again and you might be the defense attorney expert here

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Speaker 1: because here your description of each one of these crimes

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Speaker 1: is absolutely accurate. And it is true that it does

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Speaker 1: not have to be a murder because you know, murder

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Speaker 1: carries an intent mentre as well. So if you are

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Speaker 1: driving that car after the commission felony and you hit somebody,

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Speaker 1: you would be charged with felony murder as well. I'm

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Speaker 1: just thinking about this family, this mother and these children

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Speaker 1: time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, you're hearing about the

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Speaker 1: fatal The fatal kick to the head was delivered by

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Speaker 1: a guy, we think, and it all plays out on

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Speaker 1: video as the three girls are dancing around kicking him

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Speaker 1: and aside the stomach joining you right now out of

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Speaker 1: fort Worth, renown medical examiner doctor Kendall Crowns, the chief

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Speaker 1: medical examiner in Tarrant County. That's fort Worth, who is

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Speaker 1: also lecturer University Texas and at Texan Christian University Medical School.

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Speaker 1: As if you have time, doctor Kennel crown, thank you

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Speaker 1: for being with us. Explain what happened to this dat

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Speaker 1: A four too, Tanjemma. So when you're looking at the video,

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Speaker 1: you can see that he's being punched or assaulted, punched

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Speaker 1: and kicks multiple times, and he gets knocked to the

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Speaker 1: ground a few times, and then there's the final hit

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Speaker 1: right at the end. It looks like it's connecting with

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Speaker 1: his head and neck and probably cocks him unconscious. He

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Speaker 1: falls to the ground and hits his head. So there

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Speaker 1: can be a number of things he can get from

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Speaker 1: an unprotected fall from a standing height which he was at.

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Speaker 1: You can actually fracture your skull, and you can get

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Speaker 1: what is called a subdural hemorrhage, which is, ah, can

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Speaker 1: you slow down just a second? What now about the fall?

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Speaker 1: So a fall from a standing height, if you fall

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Speaker 1: without catching yourself on the concrete, you can potentially fracture

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Speaker 1: your skull if you're above five foot tall, because there's

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Speaker 1: enough force generated from that fall to the ground on

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Speaker 1: concrete that it can actually cause you to have a

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Speaker 1: skull fracture. But the other thing is is your brain,

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Speaker 1: because your brain's kind of floating in your skull or

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Speaker 1: your cranial cavity with the CSF of the cerebral spinal fluid.

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Speaker 1: It's it's not like solidly in there. It has a

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Speaker 1: little wiggle room, and when it hits a solid surface,

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Speaker 1: suddenly it causes the brain to jar. And these little

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Speaker 1: veins that come out of your brain that attached to

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Speaker 1: the duro which is covering it's over your brain, a

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Speaker 1: protective covering your ass. And you're saying the brain floating

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Speaker 1: around in something what cerebral spinal fluid. It's it's the

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Speaker 1: fluid that's associated with your brain, giving it nutrients things

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Speaker 1: like that. But your brain is not like fixed in

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Speaker 1: your skullet. It's slightly floating. So when you hit something hard,

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Speaker 1: it causes your brain to suddenly move and it tears vessels.

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Speaker 1: And when those vessels tear, you get bleeding in your brain.

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Speaker 1: That's called suberachnoid hemorrhage or subdural hemorrhage, and that bleeding

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Speaker 1: causes you to Because your brain doesn't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of wiggle room in the skull, any space occupying lesion

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Speaker 1: like blood causes your brain to become injured or damaged

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Speaker 1: and causes you to die. Doctor Kennel Crowns, renowned medical

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Speaker 1: examiner joining US doctor Kennel Crowns. As you and I know,

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Speaker 1: typically autopsy photos are not allowed in front of a jury.

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Speaker 1: They never see what happens at the morgue. However, in

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Speaker 1: this case they may very well be allowed. And I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you why you just said subdural hemorrhages. The jury

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Speaker 1: may not be able to tell from looking at the

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Speaker 1: crime scene photos are looking at the body of this

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Speaker 1: data for pre autopsy, there's any bleeding at all. And

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Speaker 1: I remember or how hard I had to fight one

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Speaker 1: time in a murder case. It was a Jane Doe.

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Speaker 1: You couldn't see an the injuries until the head was

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Speaker 1: very delicately done with a scalpel by somebody like you,

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Speaker 1: very carefully, the skin pulled back from the head, and

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Speaker 1: then the subdural hemorrhages, the bleeding, the bruising under the

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Speaker 1: skin is on full display. They may be a look

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Speaker 1: at this guy and not realize what really killed him

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Speaker 1: until you look under the skin. You only see that

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Speaker 1: after the autopsy, right, And I've seen this before a

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Speaker 1: lot of people of these one punch falls hit their head.

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Speaker 1: Of course, this gentleman is not a one punch. It's

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Speaker 1: multiple punches and kicks. But you can kill someone if

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Speaker 1: you punch them and they go unconscious and they fall

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Speaker 1: to the ground and hit their head because of the

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Speaker 1: injury that's caused by the jarring force hitting the ground.

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Speaker 1: Cause was bleeding on the brain and all that. So

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Speaker 1: one punch can't kill you if you knock him out

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Speaker 1: and they hit the ground. Now, as his wife that

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Speaker 1: you heard earlier, Abigail and their four children were going

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Speaker 1: about their business. Little did they know that daddy was

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Speaker 1: being attacked in broad daylight by a pack of thugs.

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Speaker 1: That they found out soon enough. Take a list of

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Speaker 1: our friends at CBS two, we're told within two hours

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Speaker 1: of leaving for work this morning, police called with the

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Speaker 1: tragic news, described as a peaceful man took his last

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Speaker 1: ride at work Saturday morning. Why do you have to

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Speaker 1: talk somebody for lovers? How much? Maybe he's doom to

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Speaker 1: somebody's life. Come on, police say. The taxi driver drove

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Speaker 1: his five passengers to their far rockaway destination, and it

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Speaker 1: was there at Beach fifty fourth Street and Arverne Boulevard

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Speaker 1: where the suspects didn't pay their fare and tried to

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Speaker 1: rob him all over a fair. All over the fair,

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Speaker 1: they get out take off running. He tries to run

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Speaker 1: after them to get paid for the fair, and they

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Speaker 1: turn on him like a pack of hyenas. Is the

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Speaker 1: way I understand when I look at these pictures, Tina More,

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Speaker 1: it's amazing. Over, for instance, a thirty dollars fair, They've

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Speaker 1: all surrounded him. He's down on the ground and it

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Speaker 1: looks like the three girls are almost dancing with their

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Speaker 1: feet up in the air, their hands up in the air,

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Speaker 1: chicking this guy down on the ground all the cement.

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Speaker 1: They've got him totally surrounded. It's horrible. It's still violent.

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Speaker 1: It's just unbelievable. It's just really bad. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if to say, you know, still so bad for his kids,

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Speaker 1: for kids. And another thing I noticed, Tina, is this

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Speaker 1: is in broad dalite. He's only been gone from home

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Speaker 1: two hours and it's right beside. It looks like a

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Speaker 1: play round or a tennis area. I could see park,

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Speaker 1: benches and trees they're right there, and a playground or

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Speaker 1: park in broad Dale. They have no fear. They don't

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Speaker 1: care who sees them. Now. This is they don't don't

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Speaker 1: have any fear at all. They're not that much older

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Speaker 1: than his kids. So it's just a horrible tragedy, which

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Speaker 1: brings me to my next point. Guys, speaking of the

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Speaker 1: age of the thugs, take a listen to our friends

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Speaker 1: at CBS two. This is Alisha Reid, the devout Christian.

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Speaker 1: He and his wife have four children, the oldest only

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Speaker 1: eight years old. Tis so Jan Kupiades who four children,

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Speaker 1: But State Federation of Taxi Drivers is offering a fifteen

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars reward for information leading to an arrest. Friends

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Speaker 1: and family are trying to wrap their minds around this

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Speaker 1: terrible loss. Loving, loving and caring gentlemen, part working, part working,

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Speaker 1: take scare of the family. Yeah, we've really lost a

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Speaker 1: dedicated father. Funeral expenses are being covered by Gimma's employer.

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Speaker 1: The State Federation of Taxi Drivers is holding a rally

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Speaker 1: Sunday morning. We're told the family is expected to attend.

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Speaker 1: Paul and all. How many purps are suspected, tinamore five.

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Speaker 1: I understand they range from twenty to thirteen years old.

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Speaker 1: We believe they are thirteen, fifteen, sixteen, twenty and twenty two.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Angela Arnold joining us. Renowned psychiatrists joining us out

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Speaker 1: of the Atlanta Jurisdiction and you can find her at

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Speaker 1: Angela Arnold MD dot com, Doctor Angie. It's a pack mentality.

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Speaker 1: People do things in a group they would normally do

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Speaker 1: if they were by themselves. Years ago, it was called

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Speaker 1: wilding when preteens to get together and just go crazy.

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Speaker 1: They may knock down mailboxes, they may spray paint or murder.

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Speaker 1: What's the mentality, well, Nancy, people people can do things

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Speaker 1: in a pack and feel like they're first of all,

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Speaker 1: they feel supported if they if they do things in

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Speaker 1: a pack. Okay. It's also known as herd mentality, mob mentality,

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Speaker 1: and gang mentality. Okay, So when you say ganging a

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Speaker 1: mean that they're the bloods of the crips or some

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Speaker 1: other gang. It's just a group of people. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: you're exactly right. And it's defined by elements of hostility

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Speaker 1: and fear. Okay. And if you're within the pack, you

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Speaker 1: have to play by the rules of the pack or

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Speaker 1: you might get cut, or you might get kicked out

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Speaker 1: of the pack. So that might be what was at

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Speaker 1: play here. Also in this pack mentality. You know what's odd?

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Speaker 1: Joining me? Chris Buyer's former police chief at John's Creek

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Speaker 1: twenty five years on the force, now private investigator and

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Speaker 1: polygrapher at Chris Buyers Investigations and polygraph dot Com. That's

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Speaker 1: a mouthful, that said Chris Buyers. You don't normally see girls,

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Speaker 1: teen girls this young, we believe, thirteen fifteen, sixteen brutally

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Speaker 1: kicking an adult male down on the ground in the stomach,

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Speaker 1: the chest, the head. I mean, think about the mentality.

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Speaker 1: I'm rearing back like you're kicking a football and kicking

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Speaker 1: somebody in the head. Is they're lying on the ground. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: All I can think when you were talking just now

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Speaker 1: about her being thirteen the youngest My daughter turned thirteen

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Speaker 1: last week, and all I can think is, you know

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Speaker 1: what could bring a thirteen year old to that much anger?

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's just zero respect for life there. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I think back when I first started in

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Speaker 1: law enforcement in the early nineties, this was you never

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Speaker 1: saw girls, especially teenage girls, involved in this kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: So it just shows where we've come as a society

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Speaker 1: now and how much we respect life now or disrespect life.

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Speaker 1: You know what's interesting. I want to follow up on

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Speaker 1: what Chris Byers just said. Piddr Ay Arnold the other

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Speaker 1: day my son, they're fourteen, they're twins. John Dave was

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Speaker 1: tormenting his sister and she took a spiral notebook and

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Speaker 1: hit him. And can I tell you all, h eble

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Speaker 1: l got rained down on the both of them because

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Speaker 1: there's no hitting, no hitting, And that was just over

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Speaker 1: a swat with a spiral notebook. I mean, how do

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Speaker 1: you get to the point where it's okay? And you

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Speaker 1: go along with kicking and unarmed men this dad kitchen

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Speaker 1: and I'm thinking about my own dad and my husband

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Speaker 1: down he's down all the ground and they're continuing to

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Speaker 1: kick at him and I'm sure screaming and laughing and

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Speaker 1: cursing at him, and they don't let up until he's dead. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, Nancy, they're probably I mean they again, the

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Speaker 1: mob and the gang mentality that is going on creates

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Speaker 1: its own energy, and no one wants once they get

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Speaker 1: into this. They no one wants to seem like a wimp.

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Speaker 1: And none of them are going to say, oh, we

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Speaker 1: better stop, okay, because they're all they're also, believe it

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Speaker 1: or not, trying to gain a certain amount of status.

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Speaker 1: Who are these people? I can't even talk call them kids?

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Speaker 1: Are children, because when you look at these videos, they're killers.

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Speaker 1: They're killers. And you know what I'm looking at right now,

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Speaker 1: this incredible photo. He's such a handsome man. And here

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Speaker 1: he is with his wife Abigail, and their pictured together,

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Speaker 1: and they're so in love. He's all dressed up in

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Speaker 1: a suit and she looks like she's got on a

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Speaker 1: church dress, and these beautiful smiles, their whole life in

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Speaker 1: front of them, their prides and joys, their four children,

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Speaker 1: and looking at him, it just reminds me so much

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Speaker 1: of my dad, who would get up sometimes, as he

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Speaker 1: called it, he'd worked the first trick, Peter Smith, which

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Speaker 1: is the first shift, sometimes second, somebody's third, sometimes overnight

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Speaker 1: shift on the railroad. Never complained, Never complained, Peter Smith.

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Speaker 1: You have tried and investigated so many cases. Did you

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Speaker 1: ever wonder why is it always the really great people

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Speaker 1: that get murdered while the evildoers, the po sees technical

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Speaker 1: legal term, piece of craps they live? Yeah? Well, I mean,

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Speaker 1: and so I actually grew up in New York in

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Speaker 1: the bad old eighties and nineties, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: remember the palpable fear of you know, not knowing what

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Speaker 1: was going to be around a corner when you turned it.

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Speaker 1: And I think that you know, a lot of the

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Speaker 1: times it's it's the good people that are victimized, because

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Speaker 1: they're the ones that are out there still doing their jobs,

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Speaker 1: still plugging away and having faith in the city as

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Speaker 1: a place of opportunity. So it is heartbreaking, and my

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Speaker 1: heart does go out to the family of the victim.

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Speaker 1: You know what I've noticed at Peter Smith. Have you

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Speaker 1: ever had a vehicular homicide and the purp that kills everybody,

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Speaker 1: it's totally drunk and they live, They're like sprawled out

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Speaker 1: on the seat, and all the family in the other car,

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Speaker 1: they're all dead. Have you ever seen that? And I

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Speaker 1: always walk away going why does he get to live?

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Speaker 1: And this whole family has been wiped out by this

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Speaker 1: one guy. All the good people, the innocent people are

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Speaker 1: killed and they walk free and the perp walks free. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that happens oftentimes, h and it is a

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Speaker 1: try tragedy. And at the same time, um, you know

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Speaker 1: that that purp needs to live with what he or

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Speaker 1: she did for the rest of their lives, and oftentimes

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Speaker 1: that prison can be can be pretty horrific alone. But

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Speaker 1: I do agree that it is a tragedy. Par Smith.

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Speaker 1: If you're starting with me about how bad prison is

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Speaker 1: going to be, thank you, Tina. I can bring myself

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Speaker 1: to laugh at That's what I was thinking on the inside.

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Speaker 1: I recognize you're laughed anymore. So who are these perps?

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Speaker 1: Take a listen now to our friend Johnny Fernandez at

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Speaker 1: ABC seven. Now, police say, well, originally looking for three

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Speaker 1: teenage girls. Now police are looking for two of those girls.

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Speaker 1: The other girl is treated as a witness in regards

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Speaker 1: to the one that police are looking for. They are

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Speaker 1: expected to be charged with a gang assault. Today, his

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Speaker 1: widow spoke out again about the heartbreaking death. Was my child,

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Speaker 1: guys here, it was my backbone. It was the one

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Speaker 1: I looked up to. I look up to God, but

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Speaker 1: aside God, he was the only one I looked up to.

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Speaker 1: Now his life has just been cut short, just like that.

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Speaker 1: She says she forgives the people involved in the homicide,

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Speaker 1: but wants justice for her family. Turn themselves in because

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Speaker 1: they're gonna be caught wherever they are. Even if they

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Speaker 1: are not caught by man, God is gonna bring them in.

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Speaker 1: You know this woman that is enduring so much right now?

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine just today her waking up, nobody's on

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Speaker 1: the other side of the bed. There's no money coming

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Speaker 1: into the home. The children are wonder where's daddy? What happened?

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Speaker 1: And she's gonna feed them, They clothe them and get

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Speaker 1: them to school and somehow explain to them how everything

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Speaker 1: is gonna be all right, when inside she knows it's

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Speaker 1: never gonna be all right. They're gonna grew up the

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Speaker 1: rest of their life without a dad. There's just really

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Speaker 1: no replacement for your biomb your bio data, your adopted parents.

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Speaker 1: You know, you lose one of them, doctor Angie, And

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Speaker 1: I don't think you're ever the same. Well, you're not, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: You know why, Because Nancy, that sense of security is

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Speaker 1: taken from those children. Nope, nothing will ever be normal

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Speaker 1: or the same for them. And you feel so secure

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Speaker 1: within your family that your parents have built for you,

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Speaker 1: and now to have someone just taken away, particularly in

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Speaker 1: such a tragic way, how will those children ever sleep

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Speaker 1: through the night again and feel and feel secure in themselves.

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Speaker 1: You know another thing, doctor Angie, that you can address,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Angela Arnold joining me psychiatris side of the Atlanta jurisdiction.

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Speaker 1: You know the story when I gave birth Lucy and

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Speaker 1: I almost died, and I remember being in the hospital

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Speaker 1: and my lunch are just full of boy clots, and

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Speaker 1: I was praying, O, Lord, please just let me live

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Speaker 1: long enough to get them out of the hospital and

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Speaker 1: to get them well because they're really premature. And then

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Speaker 1: so I made it that far, and I'm like, Lord,

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Speaker 1: just helped me live, to get them settled in and

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Speaker 1: helped thee and established in school, you know, making their

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Speaker 1: way every year. Angie, I'm like, oh, dear Lord in heaven,

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Speaker 1: there's there's something else. Now they're teenagers. Now people are

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Speaker 1: going to want them to drink and do drugs and

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Speaker 1: get in trouble and get run over and blah blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah. I'm like, oh, dear Lord, help me live

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Speaker 1: and wait until they go to college. Honey. I know.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure guys like, here she goes again, and what

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Speaker 1: does she wanted this time? But these children are as

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Speaker 1: young as three years old. Well, the three year old

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Speaker 1: is probably going to be a bit better off than

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Speaker 1: the older ones because the three year old will will

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Speaker 1: live a different life than they live. The eight year

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Speaker 1: old is going to be the most affected by this.

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Speaker 1: Because that one's life is going to change. The three

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Speaker 1: year old. Believe it or not, Nancy will if I mean,

426
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: I hate to say this, but they will fare better

427
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 1: than the rest of the children. Why is that because

428
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,959
Speaker 1: they're new normal. They're going to have a new normal

429
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: and they're not really going to remember how it used

430
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: to be, and they'll become very accustomed to their new normal. Okay,

431
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: that was hard. The other kids are going to be

432
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,680
Speaker 1: shaken up. The older children will be because their life

433
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: is going to change. So Tina more joining me the

434
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: bureau chief at the New York Post Police Bureau. Tina,

435
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: how do you I mean, I've got it and hauled

436
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 1: out witnesses and defendants out of public schools, out of

437
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: private schools, you name it, off playgrounds. How do you

438
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: go about finding three girls? The video surveillance is grainy,

439
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: to say the least. How do you go about finding

440
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: these five perups that killed the father of four? I

441
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: don't know what kind of evidence they had from the

442
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: right itself, if they had anything, any of them dropped anything,

443
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: or how they summoned the car, maybe to an address

444
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: where they had been. And then also the older kids

445
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: were probably easier to find but I'm sure they knew

446
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: who the younger kids were. I think surprised that police

447
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 1: didn't already know who those young girls were at this point.

448
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: You know, you just brought up something really smart to

449
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: any more backtracking the fair, the taxi fair, where was

450
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: the pickup? That's what they do. So I mean, if

451
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: it's in front of a home, well there you go.

452
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: Who lives there? Who lives in that neighborhood? And once

453
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: you crack a case, Peter Smith, here we have five

454
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: co defendants. If you can catch just one, let's just

455
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: go to the thirteen year old girl. She'll talk. We hope.

456
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: How does that work? That's correct? And I think that

457
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: the state's best best approach here would be to get

458
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: one of the other children other than mister Amos to flip.

459
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: You know, he is the one that struck the fatal blow,

460
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: and if he can get to if the state can

461
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: get to some of the other perpetrators, they'll be able

462
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: to use them to prove their case and to identify

463
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: any anybody who hasn't been identified at this point. Time

464
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace Chris Buyer's Forum places Jeff John's

465
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: Creek at Chris Buyer's investigations a polygraph dot com Chris,

466
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: how do you do it? How do you without violating

467
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: the constitution? Of course, how do you get a thirteen

468
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: year old girl to tell you the names of the

469
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: other purpose? You just of course with thirteen you're gonna

470
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: have law enforcement interviewing them and probably somebody from child advocacy,

471
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: But you just find something. Whenever you've got some mind

472
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: an interview room, during an interrogation, you find some way

473
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: to connect with them, some way to show them that

474
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: by telling what you're looking for is going to be

475
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: better off on them in the long run. But guys,

476
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: having a thirteen and year old in there is just

477
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: it's just tragic and I would hate to be the

478
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: investigator having to do that. And there arether protections for

479
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: a minor, they have to have a guardian, or if

480
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: you can't find a guardian, there are special protections to

481
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,479
Speaker 1: make sure that what they say is safeguarded constitutionally, so

482
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: whatever they say will come into evans. Guys, the search

483
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: for these five thugs is on. Take a listen to

484
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: our friend Astrid Martinez, police Sailfish. Teen year old girl

485
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: was taking into custody just a couple of hours ago.

486
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: This as the search continues for those remaining two suspects.

487
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: Three people are now in custody in connection with the

488
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: beating death of a Bronx taxi driver Koutin Gemma. His

489
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: widow was emotional after hearing of the first to arrest.

490
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: His life has just been cut short, just like that.

491
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: Gemma in the red shirt was kicked and punched by

492
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: a group of passengers after he confronted them. Police say

493
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: they refused to pay their fare and tried to rob

494
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: the driver early Saturday in the Far Rockaways, and of

495
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: course a fifteen year old starts blabbing take a listen

496
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: to our friend Nicole Johnson at pigs eleven sources tell

497
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 1: Picks eleven News. Amos turned himself in with his mother

498
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: Thursday morning. He has at least six prior arrests, including

499
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: for robbery, criminal mischief, sexual misconduct. Porter is currently on

500
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: probation for larceny. Police at least two girls were also involved,

501
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: ages thirteen and fifteen. This twenty year old guy Austin

502
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: Amos has quite the criminal history, at least six priors robbery,

503
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: criminal mischief, criminal contempt, sex misconduct, and then he comes

504
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: into the station with Mommy supporting him, you know, before

505
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: I get into him and his six priors, Doctor Keminal Crowns,

506
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the data four Kutan Jemma. He laid

507
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: there on the submit bleeding internally. He was pronounced dead

508
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: when he finally got to the hospital. That tells me

509
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: that he laid there and suffered. Victims like this, are

510
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: they aware of what is happening to them? Do they

511
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: want to try to get to the phone and call

512
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: their wife or their family. I mean, he was seen

513
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 1: raising his arms to protect himself from the attack, and

514
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 1: they continued their onslaught. At one point he got up

515
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: on his feet and one of the men, who I

516
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: believe to be Austin Amos, whacked him in the head

517
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 1: and it sent him literally flying to the ground. So

518
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: he was bleeding internally. How would he have died, doctor Kraus,

519
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 1: And what would he have been conscious of? Well, so

520
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: probably with the head injury, he's going to die from

521
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: the bleeding on his brain. And he probably that last

522
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 1: blow he knocked unconscious and is completely unconscious and not

523
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 1: really feeling anything. But prior to the last blow, he's

524
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 1: you know, he's feeling the pain of the punch, of

525
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 1: the fear of being assaulted, not knowing what's going on,

526
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: and all that. You can with brain bleeds have a

527
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: period of consciousness where you are still able to function.

528
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 1: You'll have a headache, you'll start vomiting and things like

529
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: that from the injury to the brain. From what I

530
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 1: saw in the video, it seems to me at that

531
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: last blow, he's not unconscious and he's probably not feeling

532
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: anything at that point, you know what. So it's like

533
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: salt in the wound. After the five suspects flee the scene,

534
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: leaving Jemma to bleed out with a fatal head injury

535
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,800
Speaker 1: lying on the sidewalk, they are actually caught on camera

536
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: again walking away and heading inside a residential building, and

537
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: they're all smiling. I'm looking at the video right now.

538
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: They're all smiling. After they literally take turns. They get

539
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: the guy down on the ground and they take turns

540
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: kicking him, and then they're smiling. Peter Smith, high profile

541
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: defense attorney, What would you do with that other than

542
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,720
Speaker 1: try to get it suppressed? Your client taking their turn

543
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,840
Speaker 1: beating the guy already on the ground, kicking in the head,

544
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,240
Speaker 1: and then they're all smiling and laughing as they walk away.

545
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 1: What do you do with that? Peter? Have fun? I

546
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: appreciate that, Nancy. You know, the biggest issue here, and

547
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: I know we spoke about it earlier, is always going

548
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: to be intent. And you know what the intent requirement

549
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: is for the crime if it is nansaughter? You know,

550
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: did they intend to cause an injury that was substantial

551
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: risk of death? Them smiling and laughing? And I hate

552
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 1: to say it, but could be evidence of the fact

553
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 1: that they did not believe that their actions would cause

554
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 1: serious injury to the point of death, and so that

555
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 1: they lacked that intent necessary to prove the crime. Good

556
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: luck with that. I have a question for you, Peter Smith.

557
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: You're a very wily criminal defense attorney. Isn't it true

558
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: that under the black and water letter of the law,

559
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: that the law presumes you intend the natural consequence of

560
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: your act? For instance, if I took a piece of

561
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: fine china, you know that china that's so fine you

562
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: can kind of like see through it, And I take

563
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 1: the china and I throw it down on a submit floor,

564
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: wouldn't the law presume I intended to break it? No,

565
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: the law is not going to assume that you had

566
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 1: that intent. Um, we are all innocent. You intend the

567
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,919
Speaker 1: natural consequence of your act. So there are always two

568
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: parts of a crime. There's the men's ray and the

569
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: actus ray. The actus ray is what you're describing. He

570
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 1: threw the plate down on the ground and it broke.

571
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 1: The other side of that is, though, is the intent,

572
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: and the law is not going to presume to know

573
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: what your intent is. They still have to prove that. Um.

574
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 1: So in this case, they would have to prove that

575
00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: the perpetrators intended to cause serious bodily injury that could

576
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: result in death. And you know, there's a possibility that

577
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: in the commission of their original crime, theft of services

578
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,439
Speaker 1: and they were trying to get away, that they did

579
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 1: not have that intent. What do you think would be

580
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: the natural consequence of checking someone repeatedly in the head?

581
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,439
Speaker 1: I mean, the natural consequence of the natural intent could

582
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: be to simply delay them from continuing to pursue you,

583
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: and not necessarily to cause death or to cause serious

584
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 1: bible injury. Yeah, this is not the first time a

585
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 1: cabby or a delivery person has fallen prey to jackals

586
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 1: like these five. I don't know if the name Ryan

587
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: graham Mus jogs your memory, but this will take a

588
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 1: listener for is at NBC five. Wife and mother of

589
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: three small children, Ryan Graham Monsey, was working her Uber

590
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 1: each delivery job Saturday night when she was murdered. Found

591
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: in the breezeway of the Northern as Apartments in Haltham City.

592
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 1: I believe she was delivering food to somebody in that building.

593
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: The thirty one year old did not make it to

594
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,720
Speaker 1: the customer's door before she was killed. A motive isn't

595
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,959
Speaker 1: being made public there. You see this wife and mom

596
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:19,479
Speaker 1: of three working Uber eights on Saturday night. Attack, just

597
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: doing her job, and she's not the only one. Joshua

598
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: Ungerma listen. Flaffia Police were called to this address just

599
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 1: after eleven pm last night. When they arrived, they found

600
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 1: two men shot and killed in the street. One of

601
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,959
Speaker 1: them was a Domino's pizza delivery driver. The Domino store

602
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: less than a mile away confirms thirty seven year old

603
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 1: Josh Ungersma was making deliveries last night. Josh was a

604
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: delivery driver for us for over a year. He was

605
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 1: a great guy and a great employee who was working

606
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: a second job to provide for his family. Two doctor

607
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 1: Abela Arnold. People out working, trying to support their family.

608
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: I'm very curious about the thinking of predators that attack them. Well, Nancy,

609
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: do you think that necessarily the predators are just attacking

610
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: them because they're out working. I have a feeling that

611
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: they're out working and that makes them that makes them

612
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,959
Speaker 1: an easy target because they're out and about. I don't

613
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: necessarily think that the predators think, oh, this person's working,

614
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 1: unless they're thinking about the money they may have on them.

615
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: To Tina Moore joining us the New York Police, what

616
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: happens now, and they've got to get I agree it's

617
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: the person. I believe it was the attorney, because they

618
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: they've got to get probably one of these kids to

619
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: turn on what else happened here, right for like to

620
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,800
Speaker 1: get too intent, like you know, what was their intent

621
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: or were they trying to do? And they have the

622
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: main person, the puncher killer identified at this point and

623
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: in custody, and they have two other people in custody,

624
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: so finding Like I said, I think they already probably knew.

625
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: I'm sure they know who the other two girls are

626
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 1: at this point. It's a matter of figuring out how

627
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: that's with their evidence together to build a strong case

628
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: against the people they want to charge, but the most

629
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: serious charges. There is a fifteen thousand dollar reward go

630
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 1: to one eight hundred five seven seven tips one eight

631
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: hundred five seven seven eight four seven seven. There is

632
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 1: also a go fund Me online for Koten Gemma ku

633
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 1: t i n g y i m a h a

634
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: husband and father. We wait as justice sun falls. Nancy

635
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,399
Speaker 1: Grace Clubs story signing off Goodbye Friend,