Speaker 1: We all want to see changes in our lives, in
Speaker 1: our minds, and in our hearts, so we read inspirational authors,
Speaker 1: we listen to podcasts like this one, and we get
Speaker 1: fired up to apply what we've learned. But then inevitably
Speaker 1: we fall back into old patterns and it can be
Speaker 1: so frustrating and maddening. When we start to build habits
Speaker 1: that truly matter, we see real change, but without enough consistency,
Speaker 1: we barely scratch the surface. In my building habits that
Speaker 1: matter course, I apply behavioral principles to perennial wisdom so
Speaker 1: that you can experience the benefits on a deeper level.
Speaker 1: This is your chance to get accountability, ongoing support, and
Speaker 1: approven system. As you journey towards a greater understanding of yourself,
Speaker 1: you start to bridge the gap between knowing what to
Speaker 1: do and actually doing it. And you do this in
Speaker 1: our group setting, in which community, connection and friendships are
Speaker 1: all created which support you along the way. This program
Speaker 1: is open for enrollment until March eleventh. Head to oneufeed
Speaker 1: dot net slash wisdom to learn all about this opportunity
Speaker 1: for us to connect and dive deeper into how building
Speaker 1: habits that matter can transform the way you experience your
Speaker 1: day to day life. Go to oneufeed dot net slash wisdom.
Speaker 1: I hope to meet you in this special program that
Speaker 1: starts very soon.
Speaker 2: There's such a transformation that happens when people stop beating
Speaker 2: themselves up for falling into the same potholes over and
Speaker 2: over again.
Speaker 3: Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers
Speaker 3: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
Speaker 3: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 3: think ring true. And yet for many of us, our
Speaker 3: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 3: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 3: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 3: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 3: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 3: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 3: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 3: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks
Speaker 3: for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Heather Havreleski.
Speaker 3: Heather is the author of the memoir Disaster Preparedness. She
Speaker 3: has also written for New York Magazine, The New York Times,
Speaker 3: Book Review, The Los Angeles Times, The New Yorker, NPR's
Speaker 3: All Things Considered, and several anthologies. She was a TV
Speaker 3: critic at Salon for seven years. Her new book is
Speaker 3: How to Be a Person in the World, Ask Poly's
Speaker 3: Guide through the Paradoxes of Modern Life. We hope you'll
Speaker 3: enjoy this episode from the archive. Hi, Heather, Welcome to
Speaker 3: the show.
Speaker 4: Hi, thank you for having me. I'm so happy to
Speaker 4: be here.
Speaker 1: I'm very happy to have you. Your book is called
Speaker 1: How to Be a Person in the World, Ask Polly's
Speaker 1: Guide through the Paradoxes of Modern Life. It's basically, you
Speaker 1: write an advice column, right.
Speaker 2: I write an advice column for New York Magazine's The Cut,
Speaker 2: and it comes out every week.
Speaker 4: It's called Ask Polly.
Speaker 2: Advice columns are a strange format, but the book is basically,
Speaker 2: we didn't really want to stray from what was working
Speaker 2: with the advice column, So it's about eighty percent new material,
Speaker 2: new letters and new responses, and then about twenty percent
Speaker 2: old classics from the column.
Speaker 4: The column has been.
Speaker 2: Running since twenty twelve, so it's been around for about
Speaker 2: five years.
Speaker 1: Well, it is wonderful, The column is wonderful, and the
Speaker 1: book is wonderful. So many advice columns are I mean,
Speaker 1: they're just they seem kind of trite to me, but
Speaker 1: yours is, it's incredibly good. The writing is really wonderful,
Speaker 1: and just the overall spirit and approach I just really love.
Speaker 1: So we'll get to that in a minute, but let's
Speaker 1: start like we usually do with the parable. There's a
Speaker 1: grandmother who's talking with her granddaughter and she says, in life,
Speaker 1: there are two wolves inside of us that are always
Speaker 1: at battle. What is a good wolf, which represents things
Speaker 1: like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a
Speaker 1: bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear.
Speaker 1: And the granddaughter stops and she thinks about it for
Speaker 1: a second, looks up at her grandmother, and she says, well, grandmother,
Speaker 1: which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to start off by asking you what
Speaker 1: that parable means to you in your life and in
Speaker 1: the work that you do.
Speaker 2: Well. I love the parable, and I think that it's
Speaker 2: it's really interesting because it actually makes me feel a
Speaker 2: little bit conflicted to hear this parable.
Speaker 4: On the one hand.
Speaker 2: I feel like I go back to a position of
Speaker 2: telling people to feed the good things inside them and
Speaker 2: to encourage their belief in humanity and their belief in
Speaker 2: other people, to have compassion for themselves and thereby foster
Speaker 2: compassion for other people and connection with.
Speaker 4: Other people, which I think.
Speaker 2: I mean, one of the things that sort of works
Speaker 2: about my column is the voice of the column is
Speaker 2: kind of a little bit harsh, and it can be
Speaker 2: a little bit caustic at times, but I always try
Speaker 2: to lead with empathy. But a lot of the work
Speaker 2: that I feel like a lot of people need to
Speaker 2: do in their lives in order to be happier within
Speaker 2: their own lives is to connect with other people and
Speaker 2: to see that everyone has weaknesses, everyone is vulnerable, and
Speaker 2: even people who seem to be coming at you with
Speaker 2: a lot of anger or hatred, they actually are in.
Speaker 4: Need of compassion and connection if you can find that
Speaker 4: in your heart.
Speaker 2: So that's one side of the parable for me, it
Speaker 2: makes perfect sense and just a very literal way, Like
Speaker 2: you don't encourage within yourself greed and hatred.
Speaker 4: You try to find.
Speaker 2: The parts of yourself that are full of love and positivity,
Speaker 2: and that are interested in connection. But on the other hand,
Speaker 2: creatively lately, I'm in this phase kind of like a
Speaker 2: bad wolf phase, i'd say, where I was a little
Speaker 2: blocked earlier this year and I'm writing a new book,
Speaker 2: and I think, partially due to political reasons, things were
Speaker 2: frustrating to me and depressing to me, and so I
Speaker 2: was looking for some way to work through this.
Speaker 4: And I think that in some ways, I.
Speaker 2: Would argue that if you ignore the bad wolf, you
Speaker 2: can be shut down and kind of corked up and
Speaker 2: blocked if you don't acknowledge the bad wolf's existence. So
Speaker 2: you're walking the line between you feed the good wolf,
Speaker 2: but you actually have to see and recognize and not
Speaker 2: blame yourself for the things that the bad wolf in
Speaker 2: your life. Yea, Does that make any sense at all?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 1: No, It's one of the things I love about the
Speaker 1: parable is there's nothing about starving the bad wolf or
Speaker 1: putting them in a cage or any of that stuff. Right,
Speaker 1: It's just like, look, you just got to give a
Speaker 1: little bit more focus to this one over here. And
Speaker 1: I think I like the parable because I think it
Speaker 1: it normalizes like we all have these drives and desires
Speaker 1: that are not our best self, and sometimes those are there,
Speaker 1: and again, you don't have to kill those, just try
Speaker 1: and be a little bit better. And I love that
Speaker 1: about your column. I think you use the word, you know, vulnerable,
Speaker 1: and I love that you sort of normalize that life
Speaker 1: is difficult for people, not just for the people you're
Speaker 1: writing about, for the people around them. And I just
Speaker 1: think there's so much help in understanding that life is
Speaker 1: challenging and we're supposed to be struggling in a lot
Speaker 1: of cases, and that what we see in the culture
Speaker 1: around us is just perfection and none of us feel
Speaker 1: that way. And that's one of the big things I
Speaker 1: really loved about your column.
Speaker 2: One thing I feel like I've struggled with all my
Speaker 2: life is this sort of overachiever's mentality. It didn't mean
Speaker 2: that I was necessarily an overachiever. I have been an
Speaker 2: underachiever at times in my life, but I have this
Speaker 2: kind of perfectionist thing, and I think that I took
Speaker 2: the culture's you know, our culture is very focused on
Speaker 2: self improvement and living your best life and becoming better
Speaker 2: and better and better to infinity and beyond, and that's
Speaker 2: something that the more on the one hand, again, as
Speaker 2: I'm writing an advice column, I naturally push people to
Speaker 2: try to improve themselves and look at themselves closely and
Speaker 2: identify the things that are standing in their way or
Speaker 2: that might be seen as not functioning well or pushing
Speaker 2: people away from them, things that drag them down. But
Speaker 2: on the other hand, there's this feeling. I think that
Speaker 2: I had this sort of rebirth I had once I
Speaker 2: realized that the moment that I could look at my
Speaker 2: flaws and recognize them as the flaws of humanity rather
Speaker 2: than the flaws that.
Speaker 4: Just happen to be trapped inside of me.
Speaker 2: I'm personally horribly bad, and the difference between me and
Speaker 2: the rest of the world is I'm messed up and
Speaker 2: the rest of the world is good, and I haven't
Speaker 2: learned how to get there yet. I think that when
Speaker 2: you finally realize, oh, I do have hatred and greed
Speaker 2: inside of me, you know, I can be incredibly petty
Speaker 2: and insecure at times.
Speaker 4: It doesn't mean that you feed those things, as the
Speaker 4: parable reflects. It just means that you accept to some
Speaker 4: extent that you have a lot.
Speaker 2: Of darkness and a lot of turmoil on board, and
Speaker 2: without accepting that you're kind of in a constant state
Speaker 2: of misery because you can't completely, no.
Speaker 4: Matter how happy you are, tamp that.
Speaker 2: Down, and you can't be become better and better and
Speaker 2: better to infinity and beyond.
Speaker 4: In fact, you can't improve forever.
Speaker 2: And in fact, if you have that expectation, as our
Speaker 2: culture sort of makes us have that expectation often of ourselves,
Speaker 2: you find yourself disappointed a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think you're really getting at one of
Speaker 1: what I think is the central themes that runs through
Speaker 1: this show over and over, which is that paradox of well,
Speaker 1: I want to be better, I want to do better,
Speaker 1: and I need to accept myself as I am where
Speaker 1: I am with my life the way it is, And
Speaker 1: how do you do both of those things, because it
Speaker 1: really is a both. I think either one of those
Speaker 1: unchecked is unhealthy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think you go through stages of
Speaker 2: noticing that you're not making forward progress and noticing that
Speaker 2: you need a push to. Like I mean, for me,
Speaker 2: I'm a parent. I have two kids, they're ten and
Speaker 2: eight years old. They're two daughters, and I also have
Speaker 2: a step son who's about turn twenty one, and lately
Speaker 2: I'm noticing I worked against the whole mom thing taking
Speaker 2: over my entire life so strenuously that I realize that I, actually,
Speaker 2: this is going to sound terrible, but so zealously guard
Speaker 2: my professional life that I haven't really let my kids
Speaker 2: in as much as I could, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 2: And so now I'm in this phase of you know,
Speaker 2: it's not it's not frightening to be a mother, Heather,
Speaker 2: just hang out.
Speaker 4: With your kids. You know.
Speaker 2: I was always concerned that I would apply my overachiever
Speaker 2: nature to motherhood and be, you know, try to be
Speaker 2: too much of a mother all the time, have hovered
Speaker 2: too much. So I've kind of done the opposite. And
Speaker 2: now I realize that, you know, my kids are they
Speaker 2: talk and they're smart, and they're interesting, and they need
Speaker 2: someone to engage with them a lot of time. You know,
Speaker 2: they need that, they need my time and attention, and
Speaker 2: I need them too.
Speaker 4: I need to show up, and I'm kind of losing
Speaker 4: the thread.
Speaker 2: You can cut this, but so you realize at different
Speaker 2: points in your life what maybe you need to adjust,
Speaker 2: and sometimes you need to say, wow, I need a kick,
Speaker 2: I need to do better, I need to try harder,
Speaker 2: Like I've forgiven myself for being the not good enough mother,
Speaker 2: like I will never really be the perfect mother, no
Speaker 2: one really can, and maybe I will never be even
Speaker 2: an amazing mother, a great mother like we all really
Speaker 2: want to be. But I need to try a little
Speaker 2: harder to be a better mother nonetheless, and I have
Speaker 2: to recognize that, as much as I'm uncomfortable with that pressure,
Speaker 2: I'm at a point in my life where I actually
Speaker 2: have to try harder at that. With my writing, I've
Speaker 2: always pushed myself a lot, and there are times when
Speaker 2: I have to say, you know what, you have kept
Speaker 2: up a pace of writing that is so strenuous, and
Speaker 2: you have to back off and relax a little bit.
Speaker 4: You can't keep up this pace forever. I think this
Speaker 4: has been a year that my mind and body have said, no,
Speaker 4: we're not going to work that hard. We're done with that.
Speaker 2: You know, you're gonna have to live a different kind
Speaker 2: of life, yep, yep. So part of the challenge is
Speaker 2: just being in touch with what life is giving you
Speaker 2: on any given day. And it changes constantly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. I think that's one of the wonderful
Speaker 1: and confounding if you don't let it be as it is.
Speaker 1: Things about life and is that things that worked for
Speaker 1: you last week, last month, last year are no longer.
Speaker 1: They don't work, they're not appropriate in the same way
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's never done. We're always evolving, and
Speaker 1: that's the wonderful thing. But it can also be if
Speaker 1: you're if you're one of those people that's looking for like,
Speaker 1: when is it done? But the bad news is never.
Speaker 2: That's another kind of myth that our culture embraces. There's
Speaker 2: a kind of feeling that and this is a seductive
Speaker 2: thing to sell to people, the idea that you you
Speaker 2: work really hard and then you take a vacation and
Speaker 2: everything is amazing.
Speaker 4: And it's just RESTful and beautiful.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard not to for me not to
Speaker 2: be fixated on those kinds of endpoint visions.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: It's sort of like imagine that experience.
Speaker 2: Of just being rich or being successful, where you're you're
Speaker 2: never like trying to be more right. And actually a
Speaker 2: big focus of my new book is is kind of
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm struggling with it. It's not done yet,
Speaker 2: so I don't even know. But a part of what
Speaker 2: I'm trying to write about is achieving the kind of
Speaker 2: the ultimate feeling of and I say the ultimate kind
Speaker 2: of ironically here, because to me, the big challenge is
Speaker 2: finding a place where it's enough, where what you already
Speaker 2: have is enough and there isn't and you recognize the
Speaker 2: divinity of the current moment instead of always focusing on
Speaker 2: where you're going to land someday.
Speaker 1: That is probably the other big You know, if I
Speaker 1: had said there were two themes in the show that
Speaker 1: and they're the themes of the show because I'm kind
Speaker 1: of always wrestling with them as my own personal questions,
Speaker 1: is exactly that too. Like I believe that there's some
Speaker 1: degree of striving and ambition and the desire to grow
Speaker 1: and change that's innate in us in humans. I think
Speaker 1: it's part of who we are. And at the same time,
Speaker 1: I believe exactly like you said, there's got to be
Speaker 1: a point where you know there's enough. How do you
Speaker 1: be a person who's growing and changing and how do
Speaker 1: you also be happy with the moment right where it is.
Speaker 1: And we had a guest on recently the episode came
Speaker 1: out and he had a question that I just loved,
Speaker 1: and he said he was talking about that future minded mentality.
Speaker 1: He's like, well, one of the things to do to
Speaker 1: get out of that is when you sort of envision, like, okay,
Speaker 1: well when I get to there is to kind of
Speaker 1: ask yourself and then what and really play that through,
Speaker 1: like what's that really going to be like? And tragedies
Speaker 1: in the news are a terrible thing. But you know,
Speaker 1: it wasn't too long ago that we heard about Chris Cornell,
Speaker 1: the singer for Soundgarden, you know, suicide, right. And if
Speaker 1: we ever need the idea that being beautiful and rich
Speaker 1: and famous is what we need, that's where happiness is.
Speaker 1: It's people like him that you go, no, it doesn't work.
Speaker 1: He's incredibly handsome, incredibly successful, I mean, all those things,
Speaker 1: and yet the ultimate misery, you know. And so that
Speaker 1: for me is helpful when I start looking at that, Well,
Speaker 1: if I just had you know, X or Y, I
Speaker 1: look at that, or Robin Williams or other people and
Speaker 1: you just go, look, boy, that stuff doesn't do it.
Speaker 4: I don't know that.
Speaker 2: Much about him, but I said to my husband, I said, God,
Speaker 2: it must have been really.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: First of all, there's obviously something about that culture, you know,
Speaker 2: that kind of rock and roll culture that teaches you
Speaker 2: how to thrive in some ways and other ways.
Speaker 4: Kind of eats you alive.
Speaker 2: There's something about being famous at a really young age,
Speaker 2: being gorgeous. You know, having everything you've ever wanted at
Speaker 2: a young age can actually be horribly difficult over time.
Speaker 2: It's kind of, yeah, ridiculously privileged, as that sounds, not
Speaker 2: that I I had that, but I just I think
Speaker 2: that when you get older and you pick up these questions,
Speaker 2: often you know that something good is happening when things
Speaker 2: start to shift and you start to see people who
Speaker 2: have a lot on the surface as almost being in
Speaker 2: danger more than people who just are living regular, ordinary
Speaker 2: lives that most people would consider boring. You know, it's
Speaker 2: hard to put this stuff into word sometimes, but I
Speaker 2: feel like my sense of what a beautiful life is
Speaker 2: has shifted so dramatically in the past few years. And
Speaker 2: it's nice because it's kind of more internal in some ways.
Speaker 2: It's really about how are you processing your life and
Speaker 2: how are you taking in what's happening around you. And
Speaker 2: it's almost like you meet people who you can tell
Speaker 2: are really present and take in what they have and
Speaker 2: enjoy it and savor it and know how to show
Speaker 2: up and savor things. Seeing people who can show up
Speaker 2: that it becomes a form of luxury to you. You know,
Speaker 2: when you see that in emotion, you say, now, that
Speaker 2: looks like vacation, you know, like that like true, you know, meditative, peaceful,
Speaker 2: happy living. And I mean it's easy to be cynical
Speaker 2: about it because when you're younger, you see people like
Speaker 2: that and you say.
Speaker 4: God, what's wrong with that hippee?
Speaker 2: You know, like you don't you don't quite process it
Speaker 2: the same way. But I think that it really is
Speaker 2: that constant balancing between am I being too easy on
Speaker 2: myself or too hard on myself? Do I need a
Speaker 2: little push here? Am I just being lazy? Or am
Speaker 2: I trying too hard to fix something that you know?
Speaker 2: I mean, this is another thing figuring out which things
Speaker 2: in your life actually can't be fixed should it be fixed,
Speaker 2: and your energy to fix them is dysfunctional energy. You're
Speaker 2: just you're just doing something you've always done. I'll fix it,
Speaker 2: I'll fix it, I'll fix it. It's interesting to actually
Speaker 2: identify the things that all into that category. Sometimes there
Speaker 2: are parts of your career you know, that are just wow,
Speaker 2: this part of my career is kind of just a
Speaker 2: compulsive I want to pat on the head and I
Speaker 2: want to be a good student thing, and it's not
Speaker 2: actually felt or driven by anything inside of me, not
Speaker 2: like everything is just a you know, a Dionysian fest
Speaker 2: of my feelings guide everything I do. But I think,
Speaker 2: what actually brings me joy or what brings.
Speaker 4: Me satisfaction in my day?
Speaker 2: And how can I make my day more satisfying for
Speaker 2: me and of course for the people around me and.
Speaker 4: Also for the wider world. How do I you know?
Speaker 2: Because once, I mean, that's really another layer of luxury, right,
Speaker 2: because once you actually have the capacity to say, I
Speaker 2: don't just care about the people around me, I have
Speaker 2: to find some way to serve humanity before I'm gone.
Speaker 2: Because if I can't do that, what real purpose do
Speaker 2: I have? Is my whole goal in life? Just to
Speaker 2: I'm going to arrive at that luxury place and be
Speaker 2: that you know, rock star whose life is beautiful, and then.
Speaker 4: I'll be done, and like you said, what comes after that.
Speaker 1: I've always been a fan of the serenity prayer, right
Speaker 1: because I came up in a recovery culture, because I
Speaker 1: was the drug addict at a pretty early age, and
Speaker 1: a lot of what I learned in that culture has
Speaker 1: kind of I think for me has sort of faded away,
Speaker 1: but that seems like the penultimate point of wisdom of
Speaker 1: like what can I change and what can I? And
Speaker 1: I always remember we had a guest on very early on,
Speaker 1: a guy named Andrew Solomon, who's a wonderful writer. He
Speaker 1: wrote The Noonday Demon, and he wrote a book called
Speaker 1: Far from the Tree about children who have what we
Speaker 1: might call disabilities and also the gifts that that brings them.
Speaker 1: And he was talking about something and I was really
Speaker 1: struck by this. He was saying, you know the people
Speaker 1: who have children where you just know, like this is
Speaker 1: the way they're going to be, and you just go
Speaker 1: about accepting them the way they are. And then there's
Speaker 1: other cases where it's very clear that you can improve
Speaker 1: the situation and you should. He's like, the torture is
Speaker 1: the in between state. It's like, well, yeah, maybe I
Speaker 1: could make it better. I mean, I hear that this
Speaker 1: would help, and I hear that that would help, but
Speaker 1: maybe I should just accept where I'm at. So for
Speaker 1: those parents, it's so hard, and I think that just
Speaker 1: applies to our lives in general. It's very easy when
Speaker 1: we can sort of see, oh, there's nothing I'm going
Speaker 1: to do about that, And in my case, I actually
Speaker 1: consider it an accomplishment that not only do I know that,
Speaker 1: in certain cases, I actually stop doing it even when
Speaker 1: I know it. So I think there's something to be
Speaker 1: said for even getting to that point. But then to
Speaker 1: get into the subtler pieces of is there really anything
Speaker 1: I can do here or not? And maybe I can?
Speaker 1: Is the you know that somebody said recently. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I like this phrase or not, but you know,
Speaker 1: is the juice worth the squeeze?
Speaker 4: Yeah. It's funny because as.
Speaker 2: You encounter less of the old problems that you used
Speaker 2: to have, you also, even as you're kind of trying
Speaker 2: to make yourself a more balanced, open person, sometimes create
Speaker 2: problems for yourself from that process. And I kind of
Speaker 2: think what you're talking about is sort of I can
Speaker 2: walk myself into a space of forgiving myself for my
Speaker 2: failings and forgiving other people for their failings, and then
Speaker 2: I feel good and I feel like God, we're all
Speaker 2: just muddling through and it's fine and there's no reason
Speaker 2: for any strife. You know, you just have to shower
Speaker 2: your compassion on others and have them meet you, and
Speaker 2: then to fix it. Part of you will say, you know,
Speaker 2: I could fix all of these damage relationships. All I
Speaker 2: have to do is pick up the phone and if
Speaker 2: you know, a few people call and say you know what,
Speaker 2: I love you.
Speaker 4: I just want you to know.
Speaker 2: And there's no reason we shouldn't be able to work
Speaker 2: this out. That's not really how it works. And also
Speaker 2: you can be tempted to call you know, it's like
Speaker 2: you're not thinking of the person that it wasn't that
Speaker 2: problem at to begin with. I mean, I think there's
Speaker 2: a there's a kind of sensitive, locked in, disordered person that.
Speaker 2: I mean, I consider myself sort of a former addict
Speaker 2: in my own way because I relate to a lot
Speaker 2: of the personality issues that addicts have, and I think
Speaker 2: there's a kind of person that sort of it's just
Speaker 2: hard not to touch the same flame over and over again.
Speaker 4: And even as you grow, you know, enlightened and better.
Speaker 2: You come back and you say now that I'm more
Speaker 2: Jesus like I can touch.
Speaker 4: The flame, And the answer is no, you actually still can't.
Speaker 4: You're not going to change that.
Speaker 2: And not only that, but it doesn't serve you to
Speaker 2: think about the flame at all. You can analyze every
Speaker 2: layer of you know, what do we need and what
Speaker 2: don't we need? But there are certain pockets of you know,
Speaker 2: the puzzle, let's say, the corners of the puzzle that
Speaker 2: set off things inside of you that are dysfunctional as
Speaker 2: a person. You know, and you kind of know when
Speaker 2: you're in there because you're oh trying to you know,
Speaker 2: I'm going to wriggle through this. It's like working on
Speaker 2: a Rubik's cube as the world ends.
Speaker 4: And on one hand, you.
Speaker 2: Can get a lot of professional satisfaction and a lot
Speaker 2: of creative enjoyment out of solving those kinds of puzzles,
Speaker 2: the things that you know, I love writing about the
Speaker 2: things that make me angry, the things that make me
Speaker 2: feel shame. I figured out when I was blocked with
Speaker 2: my book earlier this year that I had to go
Speaker 2: back to the places that really the things that really
Speaker 2: bothered me. I needed to know what was bothering me
Speaker 2: in order to make some creative progress. But if you
Speaker 2: go back to some things over and over, you know,
Speaker 2: it can almost be like a fix, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. It serves some strange either an ego need
Speaker 2: or some strange escapist inability to be in the moment
Speaker 2: and just be taking in the things that are actually
Speaker 2: in your life, especially when it's someone who is not
Speaker 2: in your life and you want to go back and
Speaker 2: let me fix things with that person, or you're imagining
Speaker 2: that person and how they live a little too much,
Speaker 2: and it's like, why am I displaced from my own experience?
Speaker 4: Obsession kind of works this way too.
Speaker 2: Competition with other writers, competition with other women, competition with
Speaker 2: other people who do what you do. These things can
Speaker 2: fill the same strange place where you're actually working out
Speaker 2: something else by fixating on them. And you think you're
Speaker 2: telling a story that's about no, there's a problem there,
Speaker 2: but actually you're telling about yourself and your own insecurities
Speaker 2: and your own inability to stop touching that fire.
Speaker 1: Yep. I think we all have some things in us
Speaker 1: that are like that. And this makes me think a
Speaker 1: little bit of one of the line from your book
Speaker 1: that it's sort of to this conversation in general, and
Speaker 1: you say, I think it's really easy to see your
Speaker 1: life as a series of problems instead of seeing it
Speaker 1: is a patchwork of things to savor.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like as if everything just needs to be solved
Speaker 2: and put out of the way until there's nothing left
Speaker 2: do you want to live in an empty room? When
Speaker 2: I was a kid, the scene in I think It's
Speaker 2: Yellow Submarine with nowhere man. Do you remember that scene
Speaker 2: where the man is walking along and it's all I mean,
Speaker 2: I remember it actually being more dramatic than it actually is,
Speaker 2: because I saw it recently and I was like, I
Speaker 2: remember it being much more depressing than this. But it
Speaker 2: used to freak me out that there was nothing there.
Speaker 2: I think, having been raised a Catholic, there was something.
Speaker 4: About an imaginary man.
Speaker 2: In a place that's just white and everything disappears and
Speaker 2: he has nothing.
Speaker 4: It just felt so threatening and terrible to me. But
Speaker 4: that's when you're.
Speaker 2: Fixing everything to get it out of the way. That's
Speaker 2: kind of what you're aiming for. Is like you think
Speaker 2: that you're kind of just aiming for death, right, because
Speaker 2: there is no rest, there's no real peace where there's
Speaker 2: just nothing.
Speaker 4: There are always more problems to solve, right.
Speaker 2: And Also what you said about the kids, I think
Speaker 2: is interesting. Kids with different issues. It's the waiting for
Speaker 2: a diagnosis. Somehow are not really knowing how much help
Speaker 2: you should be giving and how much you should be
Speaker 2: you know, accepting what you have. I think that's a
Speaker 2: nice metaphor for where we all end up with ourselves sometimes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean definitely like I am this way,
Speaker 1: you know I am. A personal example for me is
Speaker 1: it's very easy for me to become sort of very
Speaker 1: withdrawn and quiet, and that can be difficult in relationships.
Speaker 1: It's also just a it's you know, part of who
Speaker 1: I am in some way, and so there's this always
Speaker 1: this question of well, how much do I work to
Speaker 1: improve that versus how much do I accept it? And
Speaker 1: you know, I've been thinking of things sort of on
Speaker 1: a scale more lately and realizing it's not about not
Speaker 1: being a certain way, it's about being the right amount
Speaker 1: of a certain way. Like that that tendency of mine
Speaker 1: to kind of go off in my head and think
Speaker 1: about things is in one hand, very bad for me
Speaker 1: and also one of the one, you know, one of
Speaker 1: the best things about me. It gives me some of
Speaker 1: my best strengths. And so instead of trying to be
Speaker 1: a different person and have different characteristics, how do I
Speaker 1: how do I dial those characteristics to levels that are
Speaker 1: more skillful for my life versus trying to be a
Speaker 1: way that I'm not.
Speaker 2: I think that personally, I have sort of started to
Speaker 2: put aside the idea that there's some objective good way
Speaker 2: to be about anything. Yes, and it's actually legitimate, especially
Speaker 2: as when you're older and you're talking about within the
Speaker 2: context of a partnership or a marriage or a friendship.
Speaker 2: It's not about anyone would agree that you're crazy, or
Speaker 2: any you know, anyone would agree that you don't talk enough.
Speaker 2: It's actually just two people defining for themselves what works
Speaker 2: separately and what works together.
Speaker 4: And it's about asking for Okay.
Speaker 2: I understand that this silence you have going on works
Speaker 2: for you. I'm gonna need more, you know, But then
Speaker 2: also examining do I compulsively always need more? Am I
Speaker 2: attracted to silence? I mean, most of us do end
Speaker 2: up with people who just there's spark there because.
Speaker 4: We need a little more from that kind of person.
Speaker 2: And in couples, I think also one person really does
Speaker 2: end up being more, a little more withholding, and the
Speaker 2: other person ends up being a little more, give me
Speaker 2: a little more, give me a little more. I don't
Speaker 2: think that's actually a pathology.
Speaker 4: Or a dysfunction.
Speaker 2: It's kind of just the way it is, like you
Speaker 2: can put the same two people in a different couple,
Speaker 2: and they'll start doing the opposite things based on what
Speaker 2: the other person, you know, how the other person's trying
Speaker 2: to solve the puzzle of them. So lately I've been
Speaker 2: kind of feeling my way into this new place where
Speaker 2: it's sort of like I might be an objective lunatic
Speaker 2: on anyone else's scale. Or maybe maybe our culture, which
Speaker 2: is crazy, our culture is completely mad, but maybe our
Speaker 2: insane culture defines me as insane. Am I going to
Speaker 2: take that to heart every day of my life? I
Speaker 2: live in the suburbs. The suburbs are a strange place.
Speaker 2: Am I going to navigate my entire existence around the
Speaker 2: norms of the people around me and the suburbs? Or
Speaker 2: am I actually going to just say bartle Be the scrivener.
Speaker 4: I choose not to like bartle Be. I choose not to.
Speaker 4: I prefer not to. That's what you say. He doesn't say,
Speaker 4: I choose not to.
Speaker 2: I think letting go of the notion that there's some
Speaker 2: objective form of healthy person is so ian, and especially
Speaker 2: between two adults in a relationship.
Speaker 4: I mean I end up saying to my husband often, Look,
Speaker 4: you don't have.
Speaker 2: To apologize just because you're a weirdo and this or
Speaker 2: that way. All that matters is whether or not it
Speaker 2: makes me, you know, angry or insane, and whether or
Speaker 2: not the things I do make you insane, and whether
Speaker 2: we can just talk it out, and you know, we
Speaker 2: can work it out.
Speaker 4: We can work it out.
Speaker 2: You know, we can compromise and find a way of
Speaker 2: each getting what we need. We're just here to kind
Speaker 2: of help each other and to get what we need
Speaker 2: at the same time. And it doesn't matter what the
Speaker 2: if the entire world says their thing that they have
Speaker 2: going on is nutty, there's something wrong there, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: I'm going to read something that you wrote that's very
Speaker 1: similar to this idea, and you say, my guess is
Speaker 1: that at least some of the shit you're taking for
Speaker 1: being out of step with the mainstream is related to
Speaker 1: your perfectly understandable urge to shove all of humanity into
Speaker 1: one of two clean categories, odd and normal and vibrant
Speaker 1: and dullsville unique and average. But first, you're going to
Speaker 1: need to relax your grip on your worldview a little
Speaker 1: and accept yourself for who you are once and for all.
Speaker 1: And while you're at it, except that the so called
Speaker 1: ultranormals out there are far more complex than you give
Speaker 1: them credit for.
Speaker 2: I like letters where people bring me their perceptions of
Speaker 2: what is acceptable and what isn't acceptible and even what
Speaker 2: is daring and rock and roll and what's just milk
Speaker 2: toast and boring, And sometimes people have these I got
Speaker 2: something recently from someone who was talking about being into,
Speaker 2: you know, freaky sex and BDSM, and she was saying,
Speaker 2: I won't settle for anyone who isn't open to the
Speaker 2: freaky things that I'm open to. And I mean, I
Speaker 2: struggle with exactly how to answer this because a part
Speaker 2: of me feels like who defines what bland sexes and
Speaker 2: what freaky sex is? Sex is two people deciding together
Speaker 2: how they're going to communicate or take part in this
Speaker 2: kind of physical party.
Speaker 4: You know, So why is.
Speaker 2: There somehow a lot of cachet around putting on black
Speaker 2: leather versus just having.
Speaker 4: Missionary style sex.
Speaker 2: It's just an arbitrary distinction that places the alternative in
Speaker 2: some rarefied realm in your mind when you could be
Speaker 2: turning your back on someone who is just you know,
Speaker 2: the energy that you seek might not actually have translated
Speaker 2: itself into sex for this person, but you'll still find
Speaker 2: it with this person and saying straight out of the gate,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna need this stat and this cuts you off
Speaker 2: from a lot of kind of forms.
Speaker 4: You know. It's almost like a way of never being.
Speaker 2: Vulnerable to come into a relationship saying here's my laundry
Speaker 2: list of what I desire, and I understand it at
Speaker 2: the level of I need an egalitarian partner.
Speaker 4: I can't be with someone who doesn't see me as
Speaker 4: an equal.
Speaker 2: I mean that's a very basic thing, right, But the
Speaker 2: line when the laundry list is very detailed, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: need Kellogg's corn flakes every morning, tea without sugar. It's
Speaker 2: a challenge to kind of loosen up other people's grips
Speaker 2: on what they think are the parameters of what they're
Speaker 2: dealing with and their assumptions. I mean, we have so
Speaker 2: many just really dumb, flat simple assumptions about what categories
Speaker 2: of people are okay and what categories of people are
Speaker 2: messed up, and weird keep them away from us.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: We have these ideas about weakness and how if someone
Speaker 2: says too much that means they're weak somehow, whereas it's
Speaker 2: someone who can perfectly, you know, ape the successful dude
Speaker 2: in our mainstream society is somehow really getting, you know,
Speaker 2: hitting on all cylinders, and everyone else is just fumbling.
Speaker 2: So being able to put that into language is a
Speaker 2: challenge because you're kind of taking apart everything that people
Speaker 2: know and trying to challenge.
Speaker 4: I mean, you end up saying, what is this, Where
Speaker 4: does this come from? Does this serve you?
Speaker 2: If it serves you, if you're happy in that fantastic
Speaker 2: you know who. I'm not trying to change everyone's perception
Speaker 2: of what's normal. Certainly, God knows, I don't know what
Speaker 2: normal is. But people really let themselves be guided and
Speaker 2: fenced in and put in a corner by these dichotomies
Speaker 2: that don't really serve the fullness of what we are
Speaker 2: as human beings inside.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't really exist in a real way. And
Speaker 1: I think that is probably one of the biggest things
Speaker 1: that's happened to me as I've gotten older, similar to
Speaker 1: what you sort of said in that piece, is that
Speaker 1: I stopped sort of dividing people into categories of like
Speaker 1: when I was in AA or twelve step program is
Speaker 1: supposed to be anonymous, you know, there was this idea
Speaker 1: that there were like normal people and then there were us,
Speaker 1: and that drove me up a wall. After a while,
Speaker 1: I was like, that is just not true, right, there
Speaker 1: is not normal people and then there's us, Like I
Speaker 1: may struggle with this thing, whereas you struggle with that.
Speaker 1: And we had Glenn and Melton Doyle on the show
Speaker 1: a long time ago and she said something that just
Speaker 1: always I go. I've said it on the show fifteen
Speaker 1: times because it blew me away, and it speaks to this.
Speaker 1: She said, if you stay on the surface with people,
Speaker 1: you know, you don't connect with anybody because everybody's got
Speaker 1: different surfaces. But if you take the risk to go
Speaker 1: deeper with people, you connect with a lot more people
Speaker 1: because as you go a couple levels down, we're really
Speaker 1: all the same. And I just thought that was so wise.
Speaker 1: And that's kind of what we're talking about, is you're saying,
Speaker 1: don't cut somebody out of your life because their surface
Speaker 1: doesn't look exactly like what you think it should.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: The hard part, I think is that we don't know
Speaker 2: how to negotiating, how to get down beneath the surface
Speaker 2: with people, but every person is.
Speaker 3: Different, very hard to do.
Speaker 2: And I do think that this is something kind of
Speaker 2: interesting that ties back to what we were talking about before.
Speaker 4: My only interest in not being jarring to other.
Speaker 2: People because I kind of like being a weirdo.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 2: I go through stages, of course, where I don't like it,
Speaker 2: and I try to just you know, let me just
Speaker 2: fit in. I don't want to be obtrusive, just let me,
Speaker 2: you know, fade into the background. But I'm in kind
Speaker 2: of a phase of like, Okay, this is what I'm wearing.
Speaker 1: Everyone looks letting your freak flag.
Speaker 2: Fly a little bit right now. I don't know what
Speaker 2: exactly is going on. But the only level at which
Speaker 2: I find myself returning to this place where I am
Speaker 2: concerned with what the dominant language is is I don't
Speaker 2: like the idea that I cut off relationships because I
Speaker 2: assert my.
Speaker 4: Weirdness, you know, and.
Speaker 2: I don't know how to I don't always know how
Speaker 2: to navigate with some people in order to just really
Speaker 2: connect with them. I think what I was going to
Speaker 2: say is it's sort of like I dislike the fact
Speaker 2: that and maybe this is just like an assertive woman thing,
Speaker 2: but I people have trouble trusting me a little bit
Speaker 2: in some ways. Some people trust me with everything, and
Speaker 2: other people just it doesn't matter how long I know them,
Speaker 2: they'll never quite trust me. And maybe, I mean, maybe
Speaker 2: I'm deeply untrustworthy at some level. I'm open to that too.
Speaker 2: Maybe there's some energy that's you know, it could be
Speaker 2: like a compare setitive energy that I have, which I
Speaker 2: do have a competitive energy. Or maybe it's just I mean,
Speaker 2: writers sometimes are you know, package the things they say,
Speaker 2: and a lot of different angles of like I have
Speaker 2: trouble just saying I'm proud of my work without saying
Speaker 2: but I'm a dope, you know, but.
Speaker 4: I don't know what I'm doing. I can't just rest
Speaker 4: on one thing.
Speaker 2: I have to give a complicated, conflicted answer as you can.
Speaker 4: But I think it's interesting.
Speaker 6: When you see people like preachers and ministers and teachers
Speaker 6: who can meet people where they are without pushing them
Speaker 6: away naturally.
Speaker 2: I think if you spend a lot of time needing
Speaker 2: more from people, you also push people away because you're
Speaker 2: in that battle. And this is the very recovery kind
Speaker 2: of thing of like you want.
Speaker 4: More, but you're also I don't need you.
Speaker 2: I don't need anyone, and I you know, watching I'm
Speaker 2: kind of fascinated by people who minister to other people
Speaker 2: and know how to find them and just be solid
Speaker 2: instead of.
Speaker 4: Putting too much.
Speaker 2: Their ego doesn't come into the picture, comes in in
Speaker 2: a way that just makes a lot of room around
Speaker 2: it somehow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's what it is. And I mean
Speaker 1: I have times where I think I'm able to be
Speaker 1: that kind of person, like I can just be there
Speaker 1: for people, and then I have other times where I
Speaker 1: simply cannot. And for me, the difference really is is
Speaker 1: how much am I focusing or preoccupied with myself?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 1: Yeah, whether that be how my stomach feels, or how
Speaker 1: you see me, or am I going to get paid
Speaker 1: for this or whatever the various things are. It really
Speaker 1: is the times that I'm able to do that is
Speaker 1: when there's just less of me, and in some sense
Speaker 1: that's not exactly what I want to say, but less
Speaker 1: of that, it's less self consciousness and I'm not thinking
Speaker 1: about myself. I'm genuinely looking at them and going, wow, okay,
Speaker 1: what's happening there versus my normal mode, which is I'm
Speaker 1: a little bit curious about you, and I'm also incredibly
Speaker 1: thinking about how I feel and what's happening, and that's
Speaker 1: gotten better. And I don't know whether to get myself
Speaker 1: credit for that or just to think I just have
Speaker 1: gotten older and it's helped to think. It's a little
Speaker 1: of both.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes even if you have
Speaker 2: the best intentions, if you go into an interaction thinking,
Speaker 2: you know, okay, in a situation like this, we're talking
Speaker 2: to each other, it's an interview, it's sort of like
Speaker 2: you want to get in the zone where you're kind
Speaker 2: of building a conversation together that has a lot of
Speaker 2: ideas in it, and you want to like, really, you know,
Speaker 2: collaborate and make something. Sometimes if you bring that energy
Speaker 2: to interactions with just people in your life, you're basically
Speaker 2: end up being kind of controlling.
Speaker 4: You're trying to pull things out of them, let's really
Speaker 4: get down to the nitty gritty, and they're like, God,
Speaker 4: get out of my kitchen. I'm not interested in this.
Speaker 2: So in some ways, for me, learning how to relax
Speaker 2: in the presence of other people, yes, has sadly been
Speaker 2: a big part of the last five years of my life.
Speaker 2: And now I notice the people who don't know how
Speaker 2: to do it, And I mean, I'm not judgmental of it.
Speaker 2: I lived there for you know, forty years, but figuring
Speaker 2: out how to just you know, people show up.
Speaker 4: At your house.
Speaker 2: We had a series of guests this weekend, and people
Speaker 2: show up and they bring a lot of different things,
Speaker 2: and you never really know which person you're going to
Speaker 2: get from. You know, an old friends you've done for
Speaker 2: twenty years can show up as fifteen different people based
Speaker 2: on how their day win, or how their week went,
Speaker 2: or how their year went. And you try to greet
Speaker 2: the person that's there and work with whatever you have,
Speaker 2: you know, which takes being okay with who you are,
Speaker 2: or at least being able to put yourself aside a
Speaker 2: little bit, like you said.
Speaker 1: And we do the same thing. We show up as
Speaker 1: fifteen different people, so we are very much at the
Speaker 1: end of our time. This is one of those great
Speaker 1: conversations where I've looked at my notes almost none, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because we just look at your notice. Yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: been easy. So but I think I want to I
Speaker 1: want to wrap up with reading one thing. You know,
Speaker 1: you're an advice columnist and so I mean, that's not
Speaker 1: all you do, but this book is about that, and
Speaker 1: I'm going to read one piece of advice that I
Speaker 1: think is so great, and there's probably ten that I
Speaker 1: could do, And I can't stress enough to listeners of
Speaker 1: this show. If you like this show, you will love
Speaker 1: this book and the column, so I strongly encourage you
Speaker 1: to seek it out. I'm going to read a piece
Speaker 1: of advice and then maybe you could say a thing
Speaker 1: or two about it, and then we will will wrap up.
Speaker 1: Almost every single person who writes to me is trapped
Speaker 1: in his or her head and wants to break free.
Speaker 1: You really can't be reminded to step back away from
Speaker 1: the little trivial puzzles of life enough. You need some
Speaker 1: kind of a process that connects you to yourself, to
Speaker 1: your feelings, to a brilliant, full color world that you
Speaker 1: deeply deserve but can't touch or taste yet.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know the one thing that I love about writing.
Speaker 4: And you know my advice comes very long.
Speaker 2: Which you could have gathered from this interview, but untill
Speaker 2: you know two thousand words, usually my response is, but
Speaker 2: the thing that I love about doing this is there's
Speaker 2: such a transformation that happens when people stop beating themselves
Speaker 2: up for falling into the same potholes over and over again.
Speaker 2: And start just accepting that these are the potholes that
Speaker 2: I fall into, you know, and start to forgive themselves
Speaker 2: for the way that they naturally.
Speaker 4: Move through the world.
Speaker 2: We are all clumsy in one way or another. And
Speaker 2: when you finally realize that your clumsiness doesn't set you apart,
Speaker 2: it actually makes you a human being right and connects
Speaker 2: you to everyone else who's alive. It's like you can
Speaker 2: see color for the first time.
Speaker 4: It's like you can feel.
Speaker 2: Your emotions for the first time in a pure way,
Speaker 2: because you don't have judgments about what it means that
Speaker 2: you're feeling something so called negative emotion or just any emotion.
Speaker 2: I mean, so many of us are cut off from
Speaker 2: our emotions because we've just been taught to associate emotion
Speaker 2: with being out of control. But when you can feel
Speaker 2: your emotions, when you can forgive yourself for having emotions
Speaker 2: and for having a human body, and for having a
Speaker 2: brain that works in certain ways and sends you into
Speaker 2: that pothole over and over again, the whole world blossoms
Speaker 2: in front of you. It's not that your life is
Speaker 2: a never ending epiphany. It's just that you have this
Speaker 2: I don't know. It's like an ability to touch the
Speaker 2: divine somehow, you know, and to feel right with the
Speaker 2: world in a really deep and kind of measurable, palpable way,
Speaker 2: and the ability to kind of put that into words.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's the challenge of every column I right,
Speaker 2: is to put that feeling into words, and also to
Speaker 2: nudge someone and make that turn.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: It's just so satisfying and so difficult. But I love it.
Speaker 2: I love it, and that was thank you for reading that.
Speaker 2: It's really really nice.
Speaker 1: So many I could read. And you do a wonderful
Speaker 1: job of putting into words and nudging people. This has
Speaker 1: been a great conversation. I feel like I could do
Speaker 1: it for another two hours effortlessly. So we'll have to
Speaker 1: have you back. We'll have to have you back another time.
Speaker 1: But thank you so much for coming on again, listeners.
Speaker 1: I can't recommend the book How to Be a Person
Speaker 1: in the World enough. And we'll have links in the
Speaker 1: show notes to her work and you can find it there.
Speaker 1: And thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 4: Thank you, Eric. I enjoyed it so much. I'd love
Speaker 4: to come back. Go so nice talking to you.
Speaker 5: Okay, take care, okay, you too, Bye bye.
Speaker 3: If what you just heard was helpful to you. Please
Speaker 3: consider making a donation to the One You Feed podcast.
Speaker 3: Head over to oneufeed dot net slash apport