1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: When you're ready to ride Metro, we want you to 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: know we're ready for you. Here are just a few 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:08,399 Speaker 1: of the people at Metro to tell you how we're 4 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: doing our part to keep writers safe. We're cleaning before 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: you have found half sound of sound of statist, no mask, 6 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: no Metro need one. We have a few extras at Metro. 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: We're doing our part to keep the DC area moving. 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: Find out more at well nota dot com slash doing 9 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: our part, Speaking of truth telling, it's a great pleasure 10 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: to welcome back to the Armstrong and Getty Show. Allen Dershwitz, lawyer, 11 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: Harvard law professor, author, commentator, etcetera. Mr Dershwitz, how are you, sir? 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: I'm doing great. How are you? Thank you? It's good 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: to talk. So, before we get into the case against 14 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: impeaching Trump, how much does it bother you that you 15 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: are an anomaly in that you are willing to just 16 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: apply what you see is the truth of the law, 17 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: regardless of party. In other words, you don't put a 18 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: partisan slant on things that that really I try very 19 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 1: hard to do that every single day. Obviously you do too. 20 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: But I think we're you know, we're we're like unicorns. 21 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: It's very hard to do that. But you know, I 22 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: don't think we'll unicorns my book, The Case against the 23 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: Teaching Trump has become a man a time settella, which 24 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: means people are reading. People I think want to hear 25 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: all sides of the issue. I think a lot of 26 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: academics and university professors so they want they know the truth, 27 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: and they want to shut down debate. They want to 28 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 1: save spaces and triggle mind. But I think the average 29 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 1: American wants the rual side of issue, and they're able 30 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: to do it. And you know that's why I just 31 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: recommend beat the book. It's a hundred fifty pages. If 32 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: you disagree with it, fine, but you know, maybe I'll 33 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: persuade you, maybe you'll persuade me. But here on Month's Vineyard, 34 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: people are saying, no, no no, no, we don't We don't 35 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: even want to hear what you have to say because 36 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: it might benefit Trump, and anything that's benefits Trump is 37 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: something we don't want to hear. We don't even want 38 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: to allow it to be heard. At the attitude here 39 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: on Month's Vineyard among some people, well, given the vagueness 40 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: of the Constitution in terms of what is an impeachable offense. 41 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: Give us the longest short of your theory. Well, I 42 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: don't think it's that vague. It says, you know, we 43 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: rejected the notion of maladministration as grounds for impeachment and 44 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,679 Speaker 1: instead required that they'd be convictioned by the Senate two 45 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 1: thirds of a crime, either treason, bribery, or other high 46 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: crimes and misdemeanors. Those are all crimes. And so I 47 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: think you have to prove that a president actively engaged 48 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: in a crime before you can impeach. And we can 49 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: impeach them because you disagree with what he said at 50 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: a press conference in Helsinki, which I disagree with. You 51 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: can't do it because you don't like his policies on 52 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: the border or separating families. It has to find a crime, 53 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: and that's where I disagree with many of my colleagues, 54 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: and I think I lay at the argument very carefully, 55 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: and the crime has to be a high crime, not 56 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: a low crime. So I think Clinton was not properly 57 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: impeached of Bill Clinton because his crime was a low crime. Uh. 58 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: It's interesting to Hamilton's in his own life. Hamilton was 59 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: one of the drafters and he wrote The Federalist paper 60 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: about impeachment. He himself committed a low crime. He paid 61 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: extortion to prevent an adulteress affair from being made public, 62 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: but he didn't use public funds. He issued a statement 63 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: to that effect, admitting it. But the reason is because 64 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: if he had used public funds as a Treasury secretary, 65 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: it would have been a high crime. But using his 66 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: own funds to cover up adultery, he was a low crime, 67 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: not impeachable. And that's why he was prepared to make 68 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: that distinction. And it's a distinction that I think is 69 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: made in the Constitution. And it certainly seems like we 70 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: should be worried about a precedent that it would set 71 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: if Democrats take control of Congress and do impeach President Trump, 72 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: whether he's convicted or not, that we've just, you know, 73 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: lowered the bar for what we consider impeachable. I think 74 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: that's right, and I always try to impose on myself 75 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: and others the shoelan, the other Pook test, if the 76 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: shore run the other foot, Hillary Clinton, what position it 77 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: would he be taking. I know what position I'd be taking, 78 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: and I think everybody has to meet that challenge. I 79 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: wrote a book cuotes the fame Injustice and Zomigo in 80 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court wrote versus Bush versus Gore, and which 81 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: I said, if it had been Gore versus Bush, if 82 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: the show had been on the other foot, I think 83 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: the case probably would have done out differently. And that's 84 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: not the way the Supreme Court or the Congress should behave. 85 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: There should be a single test, no matter who the 86 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: president is. Alan Dershowitz on the line, you said in 87 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: the last day or so that the Justice Department really 88 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,720 Speaker 1: ill served the president by coming out with the indictment 89 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: of the Russian UH spooks right before the meeting in Healthinki. 90 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? Well, I think well, 91 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: I think that Justice Corman should say at a politics 92 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: instead of foreign policy, it was absolutely no reason to 93 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: have the indictment come down just before the President went 94 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: to have a meeting with Prudent. It would have been 95 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: far far better and nobody would have lost anything if 96 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: the indictment came down today or next week. And the 97 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: indictment is a show indictment, nobody's everything to be brought 98 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: to trial. Uh. These folks, that twelve of them, are 99 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 1: not going to come to Disneyland and allow themselves to 100 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: be served and arrested, and they're not going to be extraduised, 101 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: so we'll never know what the proof is, what the 102 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: evid this will never know whether they would want or 103 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: lost the case. And indictment is just a charge. And remember, 104 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: as a judge of New York one said, a prosecutor 105 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: can get grandeur do indict a ham sandwich. So let's 106 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: not place too much weight on an indictment that will 107 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: never come to trial. The book is The Case Against 108 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 1: Impeaching Trump by Alan Dershowitz, And you're making that argument. 109 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: But I read an interview the other day in which 110 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 1: you laundry listed the Trump policies you don't agree with, 111 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: and it seemed it was practically every Trump policy that 112 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,119 Speaker 1: exists you don't agree with. Yet you wrote a book 113 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 1: like this. What is that causing you any stress in 114 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: your personal life? The people are saying, dude, what are 115 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: you doing? Yeah, it does, and people are attacking me 116 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: and saying, you know, if you're uh Clinton person against Trump, 117 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: you shouldn't be writing this book. Well, you know, I 118 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: have to write this book. All my life. I defended 119 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: people I disagreed with. I defended the rights of Nazister 120 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: and Marks, there's skip Illinois. I defended communist when I 121 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: was a college student. You know, I hated and still 122 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: hate communism. Um. So it's been my life to defend 123 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,960 Speaker 1: principles and not to ask myself whether I like or 124 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: support the person about whom the principle will to whom 125 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: the principle is being applied. So I think, I think 126 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: that I think that is more important to me anyway 127 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: into the national discussion than anything you write, the fact 128 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: that you're going with principles as opposed to your partisan leanings. Amen. 129 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: I tried very hard to apply to myself. I hope 130 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: everybody applies that to themselves, because our Constitution was written 131 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: not for Democrats or Republicans, not for black or white, 132 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: not for you or than as a Southern, as recurring 133 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: for everybody, and we have to apply it equally to everybody. 134 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 1: And that's the shoe on the other foot test that 135 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: I always apply to myself and to others well, just too. 136 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: In the very few seconds we have left to return 137 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: to Jack's question of a moment ago, does anybody actually 138 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: refer to you as dude at this point in your life? Ellen, Yeah, 139 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: oh Man. Alan Dershowitz, lawyer, and Harvard law professor. We 140 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: know you're pressed for time, but we appreciate the conversation 141 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: very much. Hope we can do it again. The book, 142 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: The Case against Impeaching Trump, It's say it's a good 143 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: solid helping of truth without uh in principle, without worrying 144 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: about partisanship. Great to talk, Thank you, Thank you so much. 145 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: The shoe is on the other foot. Test that is 146 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: what you have to do. Absolutely, God, dang it. I 147 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: think he I think. I think the reason it's the 148 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: best selling book though, is a bunch of people who 149 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: really like Donald Trump and wouldn't apply this same principle 150 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: to Hillary right are buying the book. Politics is a 151 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: stilly business and ugly. Marshall's News is next on the 152 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: Armstrong and Getty Show. When you're ready to ride Metro, 153 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: we want you to know we're ready for you. Here 154 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: are just a few of the people at Metro to 155 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 1: tell you how we're doing our part to keep writers safe. 156 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: We're cleaning before you've found halfs out of suns of 157 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: statist no mask, no metro need on. We have a 158 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: few extras at Metro. We're doing our part to keep 159 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: the d C area moving. Find out more at will 160 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: Not a dot com slash doing our part