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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Well, welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. It's Tuesday, March tenth, and

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Speaker 2: we have a stack night of headlines. Tensions run high

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Speaker 2: as a trial for alleged husband killer Corey Richins continues.

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Speaker 2: Plus a former DC police officer is facing serial date allegations,

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Speaker 2: very very hideous stuff. Plus finally, the New Mexico authorities

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Speaker 2: conduct their first ever search of Jeffrey Epstein's notorious Zoro

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Speaker 2: Ranch in New Mexico. We've been talking about that so

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Speaker 2: much here. Plus later in the show, Michelle Locke, our

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Speaker 2: favorite judge, is back. Tell It to the Judge is

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Speaker 2: our new segment, and she'll be sharing her inside on

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Speaker 2: a couple of the cases that we've been following, like

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Speaker 2: David the pop star in any of the familial stuff

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Speaker 2: surrounding that place, as well as the case with Anna Kepner,

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Speaker 2: the fourteen year old who was tragically found.

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Speaker 3: Deceased on that cruise ship.

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Speaker 2: Talk about family dynamics, So if you have any questions,

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Speaker 2: we'd love to hear them. Also for the judge, if

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Speaker 2: you have any of your own, you know, co parenting

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Speaker 2: or family dynamic questions. Eight eight eight three one crime.

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Speaker 2: I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong body move in

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Speaker 2: and bringing in the whole team for a very big

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Speaker 2: night Taha House, our producer, and of course we have

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Speaker 2: Sam and Adam in the control room waiting for your

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Speaker 2: call because it is our two hundredth episode.

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Speaker 4: Guys, happen how did that happen? And we have an

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Speaker 4: age today, No, you.

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Speaker 3: Are all urging backward.

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Speaker 2: I have my vest with me and guys, that's four

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Speaker 2: hundred hours of live content that we've all shared together.

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Speaker 2: And we're so grateful for you guys tuning in and

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Speaker 2: taking space with us.

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Speaker 3: That's so major.

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Speaker 5: Exciting.

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Speaker 3: And we have a little decorations in our studio too.

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Speaker 6: We have yes, we are celebratings exactly and everything's a

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Speaker 6: little bright pink right now. So again we're wishing some

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Speaker 6: bright picking fis you know, to you guys, and balloons

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Speaker 6: to everyone. So yeah, join in the conversation, pull up

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Speaker 6: a chair and let's celebrate.

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Speaker 4: I'm so excited to talk to the judge. Oh she's

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Speaker 4: so good. I mean her just saying it's a little

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Speaker 4: bit the do test. She just breaks it down so

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Speaker 4: common sense.

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Speaker 3: You know. Well, so, so many cases that we're covering lately,

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Speaker 3: especially our are dealing with things like CPS and you know,

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Speaker 3: custody arrangements and these are things that definitely one of

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Speaker 3: us really have had to deal with, right and we don't.

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Speaker 2: Know the legal thing and because it changes so deeply,

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Speaker 2: stayed to stay and you know, listen, sometimes.

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Speaker 3: Legal advice is so difficult to get.

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Speaker 2: It's so expensive and whoever has you know, the best

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Speaker 2: lawyer sometimes wins.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, in cases of the heart, if you have

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Speaker 3: any you.

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Speaker 2: Know, feel free to to jump in and ask a

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Speaker 2: question to the judge.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 7: So yeah, I did a show with someone named Key,

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Speaker 7: Lock and Key. That's a great show there for the job.

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Speaker 3: That's adorable.

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Speaker 2: So body, let's get into it because I know we

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Speaker 2: have a lot going on today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So today was day eleven in the Corey Richards trial. Again.

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Speaker 3: She's the thirty five year old Utah mother who prosecutors

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Speaker 3: saying murdered her husband Eric Richinds by giving him a

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Speaker 3: moscow mule and Taha, you said you were going to

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Speaker 3: have one later, make sure you make it, yes, exactly, No,

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Speaker 3: she poisoned his moscow mule with that. Court came to

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Speaker 3: an abrupt end today though, because there were some legalities

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Speaker 3: due to disputes between parties. And this was following a

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Speaker 3: really pence day yesterday that featured testimony from a private

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Speaker 3: investigator in his name is Todd Gabler, and then a

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Speaker 3: friend of Eric's. The victim in this case, Eric Richins.

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Speaker 3: He's the husband that Corey is accused of killing, and

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Speaker 3: the best friend's name or the friend's name, was Cody Wright.

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Speaker 3: Prosecutors are arguing that Corey Richins murdering her husband for

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Speaker 3: financial gain as well as to continue having this extra

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Speaker 3: marital affair, while the defense contends that the deadly fetanyl

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Speaker 3: could have been accidentally self administered, like he took it himself, right, right,

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Speaker 3: So yesterday was day ten, March ninth, right, And to

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Speaker 3: summarize Todd Gabler's testimony, he's the private investigator and this

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Speaker 3: guy was hired by Eric's family. Okay, he was hired

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Speaker 3: by Eric's family and he was set to investigate like

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Speaker 3: a civil suit against Corey Richards, okay, and.

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Speaker 2: Eric is the victim. He Eric is the victim, and

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Speaker 2: his wife is Corey who.

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Speaker 3: She's the one on trial, right, And so he testified

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Speaker 3: about his investigation into Corey Richins and all her activities

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Speaker 3: leading up to you know, Eric Richards's death. The defense

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Speaker 3: attorney for Corey, her name is Catherine Nesser okay, and

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Speaker 3: she questioned this private investigator on whether he had coordinated

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Speaker 3: any worked with law enforcement, and he denied having any

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Speaker 3: involvement with law enforcement, and he emphasized that his work

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Speaker 3: was solely for this separate civil case. All right, sure,

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Speaker 3: And the defense suggested that, you know, Eric might have

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Speaker 3: been unfaithful Eric again being the husband being unfaithful, highlighting

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Speaker 3: this text exchange, all right, that Eric had with his

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Speaker 3: best friend Bruce. Right, and according you know to the

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Speaker 3: tough today, Eric sent Bruce a text message stating Corey

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Speaker 3: and I are starting an open relationship tonight. So I

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Speaker 3: told her I'm taking you home, all right, And Gabler,

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Speaker 3: the private investigator, was like, it's a joke, yeah, right,

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Speaker 3: I don't understand this to be sexting at all. I

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Speaker 3: think you're wrong about that. These two are friends joking

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Speaker 3: with each other. That's what I'm reading here. And the

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Speaker 3: defense was like, well, they had a lot of conversations

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Speaker 3: about like anal and oral sex, Like really, you know they.

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Speaker 2: Did while according over this text exchange between the two

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Speaker 2: best friends male best friends, they were having sort of

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Speaker 2: sexy talk issues.

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Speaker 3: Well, they was talking about go ahead.

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Speaker 4: No, I was gonna say, was it you know, sexy

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Speaker 4: talk saying or was it just about it? Because you know,

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Speaker 4: the one we're starting an open relationship. I told her

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Speaker 4: I'm taking you home. That clearly is a joke to me,

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Speaker 4: right and if I agree anyway?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So the private investigator was like, listen, these were

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Speaker 3: just two guys talking. It's they're best friends. They're talking.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'm summarizing, they're talking about their sex life.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't like let's do oral sex, you know what

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Speaker 3: I mean?

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Speaker 8: Right?

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Speaker 3: So the Todd Gaylor that that was yesterday, okay, and

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Speaker 3: then Todd, well, I should I should also add those

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Speaker 3: Todd identified a high volume of calls between Corey, the accused,

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Speaker 3: and the housekeeper who's also a key witness in this case.

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Speaker 3: And her name is Carmen Lauber, who prosecutors allege you know,

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Speaker 3: gave Corey or supplied Corey with the sent mal right per.

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Speaker 2: Her testimony, So alleging that per the housekeeper's testimony, Corey

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Speaker 2: hit her up, she sent her out to get pills.

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Speaker 2: She got pills for her and allegedly they weren't strong enough,

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Speaker 2: and then she got referred to one of the housekeeper's buds.

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Speaker 2: And the housekeeper's bud is the one who supplied her

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Speaker 2: with fentanyl pills.

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Speaker 3: Wasn't that crazy?

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Speaker 2: So like it's kind of this is not really so

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Speaker 2: up to just unless the housekeeper is on the stand

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Speaker 2: straight up lying, which it does not appear she's being

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Speaker 2: accused of that.

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Speaker 3: So she bought ventanyl. I mean, who's out buying ventanyl?

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Speaker 2: And specifically she said specifically Corey said, you know, the

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Speaker 2: Michael Jackson stuff. And I had complained once before to

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Speaker 2: the housekeeper's bud, the drug dealers, like level of potency.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't strong enough, Like she wanted stronger stuff because

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Speaker 2: she tried to kill him once before, allegedly on.

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Speaker 3: Valentine on Valentine's Day. Well, that's allegedly right. And you know,

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Speaker 3: speaking of the housekeeper, glad you mentioned her, because today

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Speaker 3: we're going to jump forward to today, just real quick. Okay,

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Speaker 3: I don't wanna go back to yesterday, but today there

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Speaker 3: were some legal disputes at Halted Court. The judge dismissed

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Speaker 3: the jury and so they went home early so that

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Speaker 3: they could examine this transcript of the housekeeper and the

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Speaker 3: witnesses interview with law enforcement. Okay, because they want to

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Speaker 3: provide it to the jury. But the excuse me, the

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Speaker 3: state only wants to provide like one hundred pages of

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Speaker 3: testiment of this, you know, exchange between law enforcement and

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Speaker 3: the housekeeper, and the defense is like, no, we want

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Speaker 3: it all. We want to submit we want all the

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Speaker 3: transcripts submitted to the jury, which is really interesting to

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Speaker 3: me because it's kind of like it reminds me of

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Speaker 3: like Epstein dump. It's so much information, right, And the

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Speaker 3: judge was like, huh huh, that's too much information. It's

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Speaker 3: information overload, that's right.

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Speaker 4: It's over a thousand it's over one thousand images of

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Speaker 4: interview transcripts.

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Speaker 3: And she's not on trial.

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Speaker 2: The housekeeper who is admitting on the stand that she

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Speaker 2: was the connective tissue to the drugs that ultimately allegedly,

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Speaker 2: allegedly allegedly took this young man's life, right, and so

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Speaker 2: she's putting herself in a tough spot. She's not on trial,

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Speaker 2: per se, A thousand ages of documents about her specifically,

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Speaker 2: if not relevant, seems unnecessary.

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Speaker 3: Right Well, after a short break, because you know, the

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Speaker 3: judge had to go decide, And after a short break,

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Speaker 3: the judge came back and he ruled against the defense,

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Speaker 3: and he said he found no legal authority that would

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Speaker 3: bar the this prior, very consistent statement from being admitted.

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Speaker 3: You know, like the hundred pages are fine, and it's

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Speaker 3: too overwhelming, So they're going to just do the hundred

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Speaker 3: pages for the jury. But I don't know when the

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Speaker 3: jury's going to get that that transcript, but it's apparently

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Speaker 3: very important. You should have.

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Speaker 2: Seen Corey if you haven't staring down the she was

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Speaker 2: giving her the death stare while she was talking.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the you know, the accused.

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Speaker 2: Corey was just giving how the stare of death as

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Speaker 2: she was testifying.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, if you're just joining us, this is true crime tonight,

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Speaker 4: I'm Courtney here on our two hundredth show, Oh with

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Speaker 4: Stephanie Leidecker and Body Movin. And if you missed any

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Speaker 4: part of the broadcast. You can always catch us where

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Speaker 4: at Next Day podcast available wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 4: And we're talking about day eleven in the Corey Richins trial.

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Speaker 4: She's the woman who's accused of killing her husband by

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Speaker 4: poisoning him with fentanyl. Another thing that is very point

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Speaker 4: important in this is that why the defense wants the

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Speaker 4: the jurors to be what seems to be inundated with

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Speaker 4: a thousand pages is they're kind of alleging that the

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Speaker 4: officers poked and prodded and you know, might basically led

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Speaker 4: the witness.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly right, exactly right. So but I need to

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Speaker 3: go back to yesterday very quickly because there was another

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Speaker 3: really important witness and his name was Corey Wright, okay.

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Speaker 3: And Corey is Eric's the victim's business partner and friend, okay,

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Speaker 3: and he testified them all about how Eric Richins like

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Speaker 3: his character and how he lived in his habits and

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Speaker 3: his health and things like that somebody that isn't in

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Speaker 3: the family. Right. So Corey stated, you know, he never

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Speaker 3: knew Eric to abuse any drugs and only really took

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Speaker 3: occasional prescription medication. So for him to seek a fetanyl

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Speaker 3: in any capacity would be completely out of character. He

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Speaker 3: said Eric called him on Valentine's Day of twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 3: We talked about We just talked about this with fear

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Speaker 3: and urgency in his voice, and he testified he had

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Speaker 3: not heard Eric sound that way before except for when

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Speaker 3: Eric told you know him that his mother had passed

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Speaker 3: and you know, he had been rear ended in some

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Speaker 3: accident and the driver kind of left the scene or

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Speaker 3: the driver had died in the collision. I'm sorry left

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Speaker 3: the scene. I don't know. I have allergies today. I'm

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Speaker 3: really really just like oh yeah, soh yeah. Basically, the

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Speaker 3: friend is basically saying, look, you know.

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Speaker 2: I've never seen Corey this destroy but right after Valentine's Day,

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Speaker 2: this guy calls me. My buddy calls me. He's so

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Speaker 2: distraught except for when he was in an accident. Have

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Speaker 2: I heard him this way?

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Speaker 3: And he says, I think my wife is trying to

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Speaker 3: kill me? Right?

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Speaker 2: Sorry, basically, yes, I think she's I think my wife

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Speaker 2: Corey has tried to drug me and poison me. And

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Speaker 2: that sounds like crazy talk until guess what way later

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Speaker 2: he gets poisoned to death right, and prosecutors are alleging

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Speaker 2: that you know, Eric got sick on Valentine's Day because

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Speaker 2: Corey attempted to poison him with the pills that the

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Speaker 2: housekeeper gave him that weren't like good enough.

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Speaker 3: And the dates all match up.

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Speaker 2: So based on her phone logs and her texts with

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Speaker 2: this housekeeper, you know, she was asking and getting access

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Speaker 2: to pills leading up to Valentine's Day and then non

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Speaker 2: Valentine's Day, there is this who says that I think

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Speaker 2: my husband's trying to poison me. That's not a normal

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Speaker 2: knee jerk reaction.

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Speaker 4: No know, and he told more than one person that,

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Speaker 4: And again, who is saying that unless you have reason?

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Speaker 3: So right now, the you know, we're going back to

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Speaker 3: today eleven, which is today, and the final ruling with

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Speaker 3: the judge is he granted the defense a short continuance

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Speaker 3: so they could review the you know, the transcripts that

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Speaker 3: the prosecution wants to submit the hundred pages and identify

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Speaker 3: any additional sex sections that they want considered to be

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Speaker 3: added in because again they are alleging that the detective

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Speaker 3: you know that these transcripts contain was basically leading her

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Speaker 3: to answer questions in the way that they wanted, and

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Speaker 3: that is possible so it is important that the defense

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Speaker 3: review all that and could you know have the consideration

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Speaker 3: to have those things entered into evidence.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and I do. That was definitely the job of

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Speaker 4: the defense. They did their job, you know. Ultimately, of course,

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Speaker 4: the judge ruled saying this is totally sufficient, and the

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Speaker 4: judge did not find anything untoward.

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Speaker 3: Right but speaking that, he's.

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Speaker 4: Toward edge of my seat when you and you said

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Speaker 4: to sort of Corey Richins, the accused like her mask

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Speaker 4: dropping when she was shooting death eyes.

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Speaker 3: She she was I can't remember. I think the process.

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Speaker 3: I think the private or the private investigator was on

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Speaker 3: the stand and he was testifying, and she was mouthing

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Speaker 3: what what it was very like because camera's right on her,

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Speaker 3: it's very very good. And yeah, we're going to keep following.

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Speaker 4: This absolutely, and right after the break, we're going to

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Speaker 4: talk about a former DC police officer who's accused of

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Speaker 4: drugging and sexually assaulting women he met on multiple dating apps. Later, still,

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Speaker 4: Judge Michelle Locke joins keep it here True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. Yeah, we are four hundred

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Speaker 2: hours of True Crime. Congratulations, we're so grateful that you've listened,

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Speaker 2: and thank you for being on this journey with us.

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Speaker 2: Two hundred episodes is a lot, So it's a lot

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Speaker 2: of a lot of Sharon, a lot of listening, and

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Speaker 2: a lot of all the things. So keep them coming

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Speaker 2: and keep those questions coming. So much happening in the

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Speaker 2: news right now, Courtney. Easy case that we're talking about,

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Speaker 2: believe it really is. So this case, we haven't spoken

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Speaker 2: about it before. It's a guy named Timothy Valentine and

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Speaker 2: he was a former Washington DC police officer. Well, he

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Speaker 2: has been named on a bunch of charges for purportedly

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Speaker 2: having abused at least eleven victims who he met on

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Speaker 2: dating apps.

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Speaker 3: So it was it was started so.

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Speaker 4: Normally he would be on you know tinge bumbled or hinge.

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Speaker 4: Rather is wherever you even got her boyfriend.

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Speaker 3: That's where she met her boyfriend on him, she said.

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Speaker 5: On the air.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, but I think there was a connection between someone

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Speaker 7: she knew.

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Speaker 3: So he's saying, I just listened to these dating apps

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Speaker 3: scare me and this was this guy's a cop.

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Speaker 2: I mean the present sometimes, you know, even the tough

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Speaker 2: ones present very well, that's true.

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Speaker 4: Well, I know, and even more still, he would say, hey,

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Speaker 4: you know he looked he was well put together, he

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Speaker 4: was fit, and absolutely let's meet in a nice public

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Speaker 4: fate a place, you know, just your regular neighborhood bar.

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Speaker 4: So kind of all the right things. And while he

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Speaker 4: was a police officer, he would also be telling tales

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Speaker 4: about his work with the FBI.

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Speaker 3: Untrue, but a way to seem more interesting. He was lying.

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Speaker 4: And so he'd be out on dates with these women

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Speaker 4: at again a very public place, and then take the

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Speaker 4: opportunity when one of the women went to the restroom, Hey,

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Speaker 4: let's have one more drink, And then he would pull

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Speaker 4: powder and out of his pocket and go ahead and

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Speaker 4: drug them, offer hey let me bring you know you've

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Speaker 4: had a little too much, bring him to his home,

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Speaker 4: and then sexually assault and film them. And also he

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Speaker 4: took pictures of all of their driver's licenses. Okay, Brian Coberger, Right,

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Speaker 4: So I know, just an odd thing, and we don't

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Speaker 4: know the rationale behind it. I mean we just know, well,

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Speaker 4: because he gets an actress's date of birth, it's like

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Speaker 4: it's like a little docs in his pocket and he

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Speaker 4: doesn't have to use the system, which would be a

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Speaker 4: red flag for the authorities of him looking up these women.

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Speaker 3: I bet right, right right.

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Speaker 4: So pretty egregious, and he ended up so all of

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Speaker 4: these assaults. As of yesterday, the allegations expanded to at

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Speaker 4: least eleven alleged victims. However, multiple jurisdictions are investigating and

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Speaker 4: think that there may be dozens more. There are many,

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Speaker 4: many videos, dozens of videos of his phone on his

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Speaker 4: phone of women appearing to be incapacitated, and all of

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Speaker 4: these occurred between twenty twenty four and twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 2: This is reminding me of, you know, even when we

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Speaker 2: were talking about the p Diddy doc with Ditty and

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Speaker 2: why am I forgetting her name right now? The City

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Speaker 2: Kine No Danity Kane, Oh yes, the singer of Audrey O'Day,

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Speaker 2: who had to sort of reconcile with the fact that

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Speaker 2: she may have been incapacitated or you know, rugged and

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Speaker 2: sexually assaulted, but she has no memory of it. Maybe

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Speaker 2: somewhere in her course she does. It's just terrible, what

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Speaker 2: a misuse of power. Oh my gosh. Absolutely, you know.

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Speaker 4: And this guy, Timothy Valentine, he was a patrol officer

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Speaker 4: and during his tenure he won the Ribbon of Valor

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Speaker 4: in twenty twenty one. Whatever that is he was, you know,

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Speaker 4: he was doing a good job. But the way he

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Speaker 4: was finally caught because most of the women, they just

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Speaker 4: woke up feeling oh I drank too much and not

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Speaker 4: much else things.

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Speaker 3: So heavily drugged. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: However, April twelfth of twenty twenty five, Timothy Valentine met

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Speaker 4: a woman at a bar and she blacked out, and

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Speaker 4: when she wakes up, she realized she's being assaulted. She

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Speaker 4: then goes and says, you know, goes to get an

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Speaker 4: exam and says, I think something happened to me, and

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Speaker 4: a forensic exam find Brosamalan I believe it is, which

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Speaker 4: is a sedative that's similar to xanax, and it causes amnesia, sedation,

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Speaker 4: and muscle relaxation in the victim's system.

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Speaker 3: And he got that at you know, I don't know

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Speaker 3: the answer to that. I meant always have access to

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Speaker 3: you know, that his lockers and things like that, you

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Speaker 3: know what I mean, like seese, drugs and whatnot. Was

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Speaker 3: he stealing from evidence or was he buying off the

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Speaker 3: street from his contacts on the street.

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Speaker 4: As being a street he was retired by that time

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Speaker 4: or had ended his tenures, so he was from twenty He.

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Speaker 3: Could killed these women with that literally exactly.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and so this is going to be, you know,

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Speaker 4: it seems like it's going to sort of mushroom. And

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Speaker 4: because there are lots of people investigating, and they have

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Speaker 4: posted his website on any news story covering this posted

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Speaker 4: photo and saying if you had a date with this man,

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Speaker 4: we would like to speak with you.

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Speaker 3: Wow. Well, hopefully they can go through his profiles that

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Speaker 3: he had. I'm sure he was on all the ones

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Speaker 3: bumble plenty of fish, tender hinge, you know, all of them,

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Speaker 3: and find out who whose phone numbers he got to

380
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Speaker 3: talk to set updates. Hopefully hopefully they're doing that, I

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Speaker 3: would have to assume.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And just for anybody going on a date, please, first dates,

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Speaker 2: you're always in public. Second dates, always in public and

385
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Speaker 2: for a hot minute. Yeah, and he drugged them in public.

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Speaker 2: It's seen on surveillance stats right.

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Speaker 4: Exactly right, because the first woman who came, you know who,

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Speaker 4: went and got tested. They went to the bar, they

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Speaker 4: pulled the footage and there he was just in public

390
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Speaker 4: putting some pottery substance, mixing it up how me and.

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Speaker 7: Protect yourself, Like I'm trying to think of, Like, let's

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Speaker 7: talk about a way that maybe like what could you,

393
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Speaker 7: like do I take my drink with me if I

394
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Speaker 7: step away from the table, Like I just would love

395
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Speaker 7: to know some takeaway.

396
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Speaker 3: Into one thing.

397
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Speaker 2: Again, we should have an expert on for sure, because

398
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Speaker 2: one thing that we do hear a lot about is

399
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Speaker 2: you know, opening your own drink, even with the bar,

400
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 2: if you leave your drink, you're supposed to put a

401
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Speaker 2: little you know, something on top of it. But again

402
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 2: that wouldn't stop them from taking the little top, you know,

403
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 2: a little coaster, you know those paper coasters that you

404
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,160
Speaker 2: get at the bar that go under your drink. Put

405
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Speaker 2: it on top of your drink if you're walking away.

406
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Speaker 2: But if somebody has the will to, you know, be dastardly,

407
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Speaker 2: they're going to I assume. Also, we have to look

408
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Speaker 2: out for each other. Watch the people at the bar

409
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Speaker 2: with you. If you see a young woman or a

410
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 2: young man, or an old man or a young whatever

411
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,919
Speaker 2: the thing is, if something feels a little off to you,

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Speaker 2: you know, I know we're so conditioned to keep to

413
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Speaker 2: ourselves and not get involved. But if you see somebody

414
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Speaker 2: that something feels a little off, or you see somebody

415
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 2: slipping something in a person's drink, you should speak up.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, please do In fact, I mean so

417
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Speaker 3: he would do it. In the surveillance footage, he waited

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Speaker 3: for her to go to the restroom, she goes to

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Speaker 3: the restroom, and then he dips it in her drink. Correct.

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Speaker 3: So I would suggest that if you're going on a

421
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,360
Speaker 3: date with somebody you know that you barely know, take

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Speaker 3: a drink with you. Take the drink with you, or listen.

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Speaker 5: I'm gonna go with a new one, order a new.

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Speaker 3: One when you get to the table. Yeah's true. Maybe

425
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Speaker 3: maybe fake spill it, I don't know, you know, it's

426
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Speaker 3: so true, or.

427
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Speaker 7: Just like oh this one needs I need a fresh one,

428
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Speaker 7: or and I don't know, I find any excuse to

429
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Speaker 7: get a new drink. Also, I think maybe the idea

430
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Speaker 7: of like friends, we do this, but like I'm going

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Speaker 7: on a date, I'm going to text you at.

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Speaker 5: You know, Nile one.

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Speaker 7: So yeah, I'm okay, some sort of like secondary person

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Speaker 7: out there that's aware of what's happening in case they

435
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Speaker 7: don't hear from you.

436
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 4: See that is so important. And I remember my mom

437
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 4: telling me this a long time ago. I was in

438
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 4: my teens, and she's like, listen, if you're going out

439
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 4: somewhere for a night or on a three day trip

440
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,160
Speaker 4: to Aruba, and you don't want me to know, someone

441
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 4: needs to know where you are at all times. It

442
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 4: doesn't be your best friend, just somebody needs to know.

443
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's like your great idea, but I

444
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 3: don't know how, like your friends knowing where you are

445
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 3: would prevent you from getting like roofied, or.

446
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 2: A friend who's a cop, a female cop actually, And

447
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 2: she used to tell me the scariest story is about

448
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 2: how she would cover these cases in Santa Barbara, where

449
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 2: you know, a girl would go on a date and Courtney,

450
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 2: I think I've shared these with you. She'd be on

451
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 2: a date, the guy would get up like rub her shoulder,

452
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:43,119
Speaker 2: but really he would have a ketamine shot, a little

453
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 2: small needle and ketaminer and then I don't even know

454
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 2: what that means, but it kind of renders you a

455
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 2: little bit useless, and then you'd be like, oh, something's

456
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 2: wrong with Matthew Perry died of Yeah, herself. It's some

457
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 2: sort of a tranquilizer. Yeah, so she actually had some

458
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 2: interesting feedback. At that time. I'm going to look her

459
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 2: up and have her come on and kind of educate us.

460
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 3: There's got somebody out idea I did see, like there's

461
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 3: this nail polish that you can wear to dip in

462
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 3: your Yes, yeah, I don't know that it works, doesn't

463
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 3: It unfortunately doesn't. Really it's such a brilliant idea because

464
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 3: I had whatever a couple of months ago, was looking

465
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 3: into it. It doesn't seem there's nothing that's been sort

466
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 3: of a bingo and yeah, this is it. So unfortunately not.

467
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 7: So it's a nail polish. Like just I'm describing it.

468
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 7: You dip your finger in the drink and.

469
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 3: It turns a collar. If it detects a drug, that

470
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 3: would yeah, but apparently it's not really that effective. But

471
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 3: something like that. Somebody's got the brain to make this happen.

472
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 3: Somebody has this million dollar idea, shark tank this.

473
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 4: And such a bummer, like so good that we're talking

474
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 4: about any and all things welcome, But what a bummer

475
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 4: that's I do if.

476
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 3: They made like test strips that you could just put

477
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 3: your purse and you could pull it out and listen.

478
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 3: If you're on a date with somebody and they're offended

479
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 3: that you're testing the drinks.

480
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 5: That's what I would feel like, I'm embarrassed to do that.

481
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 2: Why just say I work, I work with a bunch

482
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 2: of of ladies who have insisted that I test every

483
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 2: drink I touch.

484
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 3: Just blame it on us, anyone listening, get.

485
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: Testers out and you just say it's those those true

486
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 2: crimes cats have got me nuts, and just blame it

487
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 2: on us.

488
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 3: But like, safety first, and what a terrible thing.

489
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,959
Speaker 2: It does feel like we're hearing so many you know,

490
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 2: victims and survivors speaking up, and then you know, one

491
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 2: says it because they've been carrying it around for so long,

492
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 2: and then it's like there's a chorus right around them.

493
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 2: So it does seem like the the octave speak up.

494
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 3: I guess if don't you know this is this is?

495
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 3: This is like obviously sexual assault is awful and horrible,

496
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 3: but idiots than this with all the fentanyl on the street,

497
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 3: with these street drugs and whatnot, you know, this could

498
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 3: kill somebody. Yeah, literally, So this is so important that

499
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 3: I think it's so important if you guys know, give

500
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 3: us a call eighty eight thirty one crime. This is

501
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 3: like such a big deal to me. I just I

502
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 3: can't get over it. I don't know.

503
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 7: There's something like as a single person, I keep thinking

504
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 7: about it. What about is it weird to go to

505
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 7: Like if you get to the establishment early, you go

506
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 7: to the bartender and say, listen, I never get wasted

507
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 7: or messy. If you see me out of control, there's

508
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 7: a problem, and now go sit down and wait for

509
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 7: your date to come, or something of that nature. I'm

510
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 7: trying to think of a way that you have another

511
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 7: set of eyes looking out for you.

512
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 3: Listen. Every bartender I have ever met is a girls girl,

513
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 3: you know, Okay, especially the female ones. They are girls.

514
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 3: I bet you that would work.

515
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: Or if you went to the bartender and you're like, look,

516
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 2: i'm on a first date. I'm going to give you

517
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 2: my phone number or a friend's number, and if you

518
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 2: see something wacky, go down. Were just like, this is

519
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,479
Speaker 2: a contact number. It's a lot of pressure to put

520
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 2: on the bartender, who's people pretty busy. But you know,

521
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: depends on the place in the space. But if I

522
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 2: was a bartender, I would totally take that serious. Afraid

523
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: to get involved, you know, and it can backfire. But

524
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 2: I think we're reaching the place that we have to

525
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 2: look left to right, side to side. We have to

526
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 2: really be looking out for each other. I think, period

527
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 2: on all fronts right now more than ever.

528
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 3: And this guy's like a trusted right you know, air

529
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 3: quotes one of the heroes. Yeah.

530
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 4: And when he was arrested, which was back in December,

531
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 4: so a couple of months ago, Timothy Valentine had a

532
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 4: law enforcement badge. Again, he was not currently on the force,

533
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 4: but he had a firearm, condoms, prescription receipts and bags

534
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 4: containering containing that powdery substance from his car receipts.

535
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 3: Mm hmmm.

536
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 4: So which because that was noted, makes me think that

537
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 4: the romaslam was a.

538
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 3: Prescription right, which I get. I don't even know.

539
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 4: I get when I go to the dentist, I'm very

540
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 4: very afraid, and and so they give me a prescription

541
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 4: for two pills before I go, and then you know,

542
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 4: I get driven to the dentist. But anyway, it's not

543
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 4: that you can have them.

544
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 3: I get those from my dog when when to get

545
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 3: his nails done, I have to give them a little value,

546
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 3: get a little like it. Have you ever seen those

547
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 3: tugs that get their their nails cut and they're screaming,

548
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 3: that's them. She's so traumatized. I'll take anytime.

549
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 4: Well, in any case, this trial is slated to start

550
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 4: in Alexandria, Virginia in August, so it'll be this summer

551
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 4: and lists are really hot on the case. And again

552
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 4: the thought is that they're may be up to a

553
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 4: dozen additional victims on.

554
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 3: Top of the and they don't mean eleven or they

555
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 3: don't mean know. So listen, if you went on a

556
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 3: date in all in Virginia through in twenty twenty four

557
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 3: and twenty twenty five, go look at for a picture

558
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 3: of this guy, Timothy Valentine. Is that his name?

559
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 5: Correct?

560
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 3: Names? If you went on a date, contact the authorities.

561
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 2: And back by popular demand, we've gotten so much positive feedback.

562
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 2: We have former family court judge Michelle Locke back with

563
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 2: us tonight. She's handled some of the toughest cases domestic

564
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 2: violence and child abuse, co parenting issues across the board,

565
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 2: and so many of the cases that we're covering kind

566
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 2: of have some of those some of that DNA, I

567
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 2: should say, and if any of you at home are

568
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 2: dealing with any of that yourself, obviously in hopefully lower

569
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: stakes scenarios, pall us eight eight eight three to one crime.

570
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 2: Michelle is here, Courtney, where should we start? Welcome Michelle

571
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: by the way. Hello, Well, I'm glad to see you. Oh,

572
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: we're thrilled. We're thrilled. So we wanted to ask.

573
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 4: You some questions about a case we've been covering for

574
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 4: a while, and I'm just going to kind of lay

575
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 4: it out to get people.

576
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 3: Up to speed.

577
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 4: So celesrievis Hernandez. She's a girl who, at around thirteen

578
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 4: fourteen years old, ran away from her home and she

579
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 4: had done that multiple times. More than a year later,

580
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 4: she then was found deceased in the trunk of a

581
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 4: Pop singer's car, a Pop singer, David. So we're not

582
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 4: talking tonight about the potensial homicide that isn't even clear.

583
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 4: But how did a thirteen slash fourteen year old end

584
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 4: up out of her parents' custody? Like I guess the

585
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 4: question is, in cases where teens have run away multiple

586
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 4: times or continue to run away, what kind of tools

587
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 4: or interventions are available to keep children safe? And I

588
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,239
Speaker 4: don't know, parents, See, how do you deal with that?

589
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 8: You know that is one of the toughest things to

590
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 8: do when it comes to parenting, and not only from

591
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 8: a parenting perspective, but from the legal perspective, because, as

592
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 8: we all know, if you've got a child that is fourteen, fifteen,

593
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 8: sixteen and they want to do, they're going to do

594
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 8: what they want to do, whether you want them to

595
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 8: or not. Whether there's a will, there's a way, and

596
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 8: so unfortunately, there are times where you keep coming to,

597
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 8: keep bringing them back, keep bringing them back, keep bringing

598
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 8: them back, and they keep running away, running away, running away.

599
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 8: And a lot of times it's mental health driven. Sometimes

600
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 8: it's family dynamic driven. I mean, there's lots of reasons

601
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 8: for why kids do it. But in some cases, what

602
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 8: I've seen as they go to what we call an RTC,

603
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 8: which is a residential treatment center for an extended period

604
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 8: of time to try and get the children back on

605
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 8: the right track. But that's usually if the juvenile justice

606
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 8: system is involved or the parents have some extensive resources,

607
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 8: because those types of programs aren't on the inexpensive side.

608
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 8: But sometimes courts hands are tied simply because the kids

609
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 8: going to keep doing it unless you lock them up,

610
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 8: and that's not a solution either, right.

611
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, And in this particular case too, in Courtney correct

612
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 2: me if I'm wrong. Young celest had run away a

613
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 2: few times, and at some point her family collects her

614
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 2: from said pop star's house. David the pop star was

615
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 2: living in the Hollywood Hills. She apparently was there. They

616
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 2: take her home at some point, and I guess it

617
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 2: kind of happens again. But you know, is is there

618
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 2: something to that, Like, you know, where everyone's always looking

619
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 2: for somebody to be brought into custody. If there was

620
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 2: a relationship even between allegedly allegedly allegedly this pop star

621
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 2: and somebody who's underage, is that in and of itself

622
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 2: enough to bring them into custody or are they Like

623
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 2: why is there not un arresting.

624
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 8: You know, Can I tell you this case has baffled

625
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 8: me as to why there hasn't been an arrest yet, Like,

626
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 8: you know, you look at these cases and unfortunately, this

627
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 8: is not the first runaway case where I have deceased, unfortunately, right,

628
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 8: I mean, that's one of the one of the real

629
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 8: concerns when you have runaways, that they end up in

630
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 8: the wrong crowd and they end up the drugs, dead,

631
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 8: you know, or sold off into sex trade. But that

632
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 8: was her in particular, Like they've been investigating since what

633
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 8: November when they found her body in the front of

634
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 8: the car, and underneath the first bag of the body

635
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 8: was all the dismembered body parts in another bag like

636
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 8: it was. It's horrific what happened. And you would think

637
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 8: by now that they would have an arrest because they've

638
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 8: been paneled. The grand jury that they journey in La

639
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 8: County is actually looking into it. The only thing I

640
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 8: can think, and this is the best I can think

641
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,799
Speaker 8: of what they're doing, is they are making sure they've

642
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 8: got every tea crossed, every I dotted, and they've got

643
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:55,479
Speaker 8: a sealed and delivered, signed and shut case. And that's

644
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 8: why they're doing it that way. That can be the

645
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 8: only because I can't imagine that they don't know who

646
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 8: did it. They just have a body and then about.

647
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 3: It all they know the location.

648
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 2: I mean, they feel that they have so much more

649
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 2: evidence than we would typically Unfortunately, sometimes don't always find

650
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 2: that in some of these investigations. And if in fact,

651
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 2: any of the people associated with young Celeste are this

652
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 2: violent that they could at the bare minimum dismember a

653
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 2: body and just walk away from it, that makes them

654
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 2: pretty dangerous to be out and about with the general public.

655
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 3: Whoever did it, you would think.

656
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 8: But that's last thing. I'm always curious of what's going

657
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 8: on that grand jury, what the investments are doing, because

658
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 8: to me, in this type of case, you should have

659
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 8: had an arrest December, were later not We're now in March,

660
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 8: so investigating it.

661
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you're right about dotting the eyes and

662
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 4: crossing and tease, Michelle, because also there was really some

663
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 4: public infighting between law enforcement and the coroner's office, and

664
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,240
Speaker 4: the coroner's office wanting to put out the autopsy result

665
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 4: and law enforcement wanted to keep it under wraps. So

666
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 4: whatever they felt, my only guess is that it would

667
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 4: jeopardize the potential prosecution whatever was in there that indicated

668
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 4: a second suspect or who knows. I had another question.

669
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 4: It just occurred to me, is the act of running

670
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 4: away illegal?

671
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 3: What a good question?

672
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 8: I don't I don't know the answer to it. Oh,

673
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 8: lawyers saying they don't know the answer.

674
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 3: No, that's good, it's good. That's so good. Look, you

675
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 3: stumped a judge. The court stumped the judge. So it

676
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 3: was like you could just make a TV show out

677
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 3: of that.

678
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,800
Speaker 2: Atone Oh yeah, but I am curious about that because

679
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 2: again we also know that so less and again we're

680
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 2: not shaming her parents. These are complicated, nuanced issues. But

681
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 2: she had been not in school, and that is always

682
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 2: a little troubling, Like how does somebody not attack middle

683
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 2: school at that point?

684
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 3: You know she was in middle school.

685
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, the fact that he's an adult and she's fourteen.

686
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 7: Couldn't there be some charges for, you know, contributing to

687
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 7: a delinquency of a minor or anything along those lines.

688
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 2: Right, even if it's not an essential manner, right, it'd

689
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 2: be harboring a minor, It could I mean, there could

690
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 2: be you know, some kind.

691
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 8: Of unlawful restraint. You always wonder when you go back

692
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,280
Speaker 8: to like the R. Kelly cases, like how much control

693
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,919
Speaker 8: did this particular person have over the lest? I mean,

694
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 8: you always look at the control factor because as we

695
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 8: know with R. Kelly, I mean, he had younger ones

696
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 8: as well, and he kept them under side of power

697
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 8: and control that kept them loyal and tied to him.

698
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 8: And so you always wonder what the dynamics were in

699
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 8: that regard because to have him prosecuted, if that had

700
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 8: been the case, the would have had her had to

701
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 8: have some to some part her cooperation and testifying against them,

702
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 8: And I do well on the bet that wasn't going

703
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 8: to happen.

704
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 2: And it's possible too, because we see this and again

705
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,719
Speaker 2: this is we're just kind of guessing right now. This

706
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 2: is not a stand on Celeste's parents, but you know,

707
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 2: is it possible that they think, like, oh, my daughter

708
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 2: keeps running away, but at least she's running away to

709
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 2: this beautiful mansion with this very successful person in the

710
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: Hollywood Hills, And somehow that seemed like she was, you know,

711
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 2: running away into this little fantasy. Maybe perhaps little Celeste

712
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 2: thought that as well, that it all seems so glittery.

713
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 2: It's Hollywood. You know, this guy was living a real

714
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,479
Speaker 2: fat life with lots of friends around and a lot of.

715
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 3: Access fancy cars, concerts, all the things. Maybe they all

716
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 3: got a little swept away with the fame of it all.

717
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 3: Is that possible, I guess, But that's.

718
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 8: Not really a crume, no, and it means possible. But

719
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 8: the other issue is that we all need to remember

720
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 8: is that when you're living in that situation and you

721
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 8: have a child that's running away, if you have a

722
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 8: child that is either writing to harm themselves, if you

723
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 8: don't let them go. But you are just trying to

724
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 8: keep your child alive at that particular time, and so

725
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 8: sometimes you end up doing things that people would look

726
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 8: at and go, why would you do that? Well, until

727
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 8: you're living it, you don't know what you would do.

728
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 8: And so her parents may have just absolutely been doing

729
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,319
Speaker 8: the best they could with the cards they were dealt

730
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 8: with that particular time, and the unfortunate part is they've

731
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:08,760
Speaker 8: now lost their daughter.

732
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:10,280
Speaker 3: So true.

733
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 2: And by the way, you say that so well like wisdom, right,

734
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 2: it's always in retrospects. You know, everybody's making the best

735
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: decisions possible with the cards they have in front of them.

736
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 4: Absolutely, if you are just joining us, this is true

737
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 4: crime tonight, and we're so lucky to be joined by

738
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 4: Michelle Locke. She's a former family court judge who has

739
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,400
Speaker 4: spent years handling some of the most difficult cases domestic violence,

740
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 4: custody battles. And if you have any questions, we're at

741
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 4: eighty eight three one crime. Michelle, we wanted to ask

742
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 4: you about another.

743
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 3: Case if you're up for it.

744
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, So in Cleveland, this is a very

745
00:40:54,160 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 4: sad case in Cleveland. Yeah, I'll just remind listeners an

746
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 4: eight year old name Mela Chapman and her ten year

747
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 4: old half sister, Armor Wilson. They were found partially buried

748
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:14,479
Speaker 4: in suitcases. Their bodies were so their mother has murder

749
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 4: charges against her. But the father of eight year old

750
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 4: Mela Chapman, he says he spent five years attempting to

751
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 4: gain custody and access. He had repeated contact with CPS,

752
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 4: with the courts and police for welfare checks, all of

753
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 4: which he claims were denied. And this case is actually

754
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 4: sparking calls for reform in Ohio's parenting laws, including renowned

755
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,839
Speaker 4: attention to one called Ohio Senate Bill one seventy four,

756
00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 4: which is aimed at clarifying parental rights and ensuring shared

757
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 4: responsibility between mothers and fathers.

758
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 3: That was a lot, but this is the worst case scenario.

759
00:41:58,120 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 3: It seems like for.

760
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 4: A father there, for a father in this situation, like

761
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:08,720
Speaker 4: what recourse exists for people like Shan Chapman.

762
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:11,640
Speaker 8: You know. And I actually did a little bit of

763
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 8: a deep dive into this particular case because the facts

764
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 8: of it are just so horrific, and he apparently hadn't

765
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 8: seen his daughter in five years, and he had done

766
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,240
Speaker 8: some kind of emergency request for custody that was denied,

767
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 8: and then now we're dealing with the the she's now deceased,

768
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 8: And I don't know what the dynamics were because I

769
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 8: think mom was only twenty eight years old. The alleged

770
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 8: defendant woman that's been charged with her murders, like twenty

771
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 8: eight years old, and that means she started having the

772
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,479
Speaker 8: kids when she was twenty or twenty two. For both

773
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 8: of the kids, two different fathers and we don't have

774
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 8: any other dad, but one dad tried to get involved

775
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 8: and couldn't. You got some real problems, like there is

776
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 8: no recourse. And that's one of the frustrating parts to

777
00:42:57,920 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 8: me at times about the family law system, is it

778
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 8: sometimes you just want to tell the judges like there's

779
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 8: a real problem, and sometimes they don't hear because it

780
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 8: doesn't fall within what they what makes sense, Like sometimes

781
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 8: your allegations are so out of left deal people are

782
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 8: like I can't be real, or there's the other like

783
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,399
Speaker 8: I have a gut, like, judge, there's something wrong. You've

784
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 8: got to believe me. And for a judge, it's not

785
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 8: gonna be enough.

786
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 3: Right.

787
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,879
Speaker 7: Are there legal tools that they can use, like if

788
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 7: one parent thinks that another you know, has their children

789
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 7: are at risk with the other parent. Is there some

790
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 7: kind of legal thing that they can do?

791
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 8: So it varies by state, but there are some things

792
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 8: they can do. They can always do what those safety

793
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 8: welfare checks called police non emergency and ask for a

794
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 8: welfare check to the conducted on your child. That happens

795
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 8: quite often. In addition to a welfare check, you can

796
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 8: call and report the CPS yourself. Most states, reporters are

797
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 8: confidential as a matter of law, so they can't CPS

798
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 8: can't tell who actually did the report. Another one that

799
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 8: I will that I highly recommend if you can do it,

800
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 8: get your child into counseling, because that child is likely

801
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 8: to tell the counselor things that they may not tell you.

802
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 8: But then the counselor is a mandatory reporter and has

803
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 8: to report it. And then you have a third party

804
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 8: that is not tied to the case, that is a

805
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 8: neutral and can tell export very clearly and succinctly these

806
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 8: are the concerns. And so that way it gives more

807
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 8: credibility to the claim.

808
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 4: That's that's so smart, And I have to wonder, are

809
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 4: there a lot because breakups can be so contentious. Are

810
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 4: there a lot of for lack of better words, bogus claims?

811
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 4: You know, if I am despising my ex husband that

812
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 4: I want to make bogus claims? And does that, you know,

813
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 4: weigh into judges being maybe a little more suspicious than

814
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 4: say if a therapist or third party.

815
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, I would say in my experience, in my practice,

816
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 8: I wouldn't say all all cases are made up. That

817
00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:00,399
Speaker 8: I have sexual assault is always the one that hear

818
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 8: sees sexually abusing the child that comes up more than

819
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 8: it should. If you look at the statistics on sexual abuse,

820
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 8: and you can almost I can almost with a pattern,

821
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 8: predict with some of my cases, this is what's going

822
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 8: to come next in the line of accusations, And sure enough,

823
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 8: it's almost always the case, Like you can just see

824
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 8: the pattern. And I've tried at least two cases to

825
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 8: jury trials and involve false allegations of sexual abuse. Wow,

826
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 8: So yeah, it happens. It happens.

827
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 2: And then again it makes it really hard to differentiate

828
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 2: between what's a hot burning issue with real time urgency

829
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 2: and what is this kind of clogging up the time.

830
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 2: You would hope people don't do that. So yeah, that's brutal,

831
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 2: tough job you have first and foremost.

832
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 8: That's why I left the bench. I just couldn't take

833
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 8: the all the ugliness anymore from the trees, and I

834
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:53,399
Speaker 8: was like, I just want to go back to being

835
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 8: a regular lawyer that handles somewhat messy cases at times

836
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 8: as opposed to handling messy all the time.

837
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 4: Smart move well, listen, stick around because at the top

838
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 4: of the hour, Judge Michelle Locke is still with us.

839
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 4: We're going to examine some other cases, including the cruise

840
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 4: ship killing of Anna Kepner, and don't forget you can

841
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 4: always give us a call. We're at eight and eight

842
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 4: three one Crime, True Crime Tonight.

843
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

844
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 2: crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney

845
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 2: Armstrong and body move in. We have a big night

846
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,439
Speaker 2: number one. It is our two hundred episode. So we're

847
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 2: so incredibly excited and proud so have had four hundred

848
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 2: hours with you guys, so thank you for listening. And

849
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 2: also our hearts, of course are with the troops this

850
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 2: evening and all of their families. One hundred and forty

851
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 2: soldiers have been injured and seven servicemen lost, and we

852
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 2: just want to state that we are sending prayers and

853
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 2: love to all of those who are serving on our behalf,

854
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 2: and we have by popular demands, our former Family Court

855
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:12,760
Speaker 2: judge Michelle Locke.

856
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 3: She was here with us last week.

857
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 2: We've gotten so much feedback since then, so we wanted

858
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 2: to bring her in to really unpack some of the

859
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 2: cases from a legal perspective that we've been covering, really

860
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 2: from a family court perspective. And again, if you have

861
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 2: any questions, you can always jump in and join us live.

862
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:29,879
Speaker 3: Let's go to What's talk back.

863
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 9: Hey, y'all, this is Gina and Florida. I was just

864
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 9: wondering if you could explain coercive control and then also

865
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 9: regarding domestic violence. I was wondering if a person has

866
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 9: a spouse and an ex partner or two ex partners

867
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 9: and those two people get into a fight or violence

868
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,880
Speaker 9: of some sort, is that still domestic violence?

869
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 5: Thank you?

870
00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 3: Excellent questions.

871
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, interesting, right, the first part, I guess the two

872
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:04,280
Speaker 4: part question.

873
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 8: The first part is what is coercive control? And technically

874
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 8: it's a form of abuse. What the main goal is

875
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 8: to degrade, isolate and deprive a person of their right

876
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 8: statistical security, dignity and respect. The short answer, what do

877
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 8: you want to know? What course of control is? If

878
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:25,760
Speaker 8: you see your partner in an argument threatens to commit suicide,

879
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 8: that is coercive control. That is not you know, absolute

880
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 8: actual emergency mental health crisis. But when they threaten to

881
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,839
Speaker 8: engage in self harm or commit suicide, that is a

882
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 8: control tactic, and that is a form of coercive control.

883
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 8: If they threaten to harm the children or loved one

884
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 8: or pet, that is a form of coercive control. The

885
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 8: whole goal of coercive control is to make you feel

886
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 8: unsafe and to make you feel like you are stuck

887
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 8: whether and you cannot get out, and so it is

888
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 8: absolutely a form of emotional abuse, and there are fines

889
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 8: to look for, but it is a way to control

890
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,399
Speaker 8: who you are, what you do, and like the who, where, when?

891
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 3: Why?

892
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:06,880
Speaker 8: I mean, I just control your life, that's course of control.

893
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 3: And what about finances?

894
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:11,399
Speaker 2: I mean, this is the story that we hear so often, right,

895
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 2: and so many of us have found ourselves in scenarios. Listen,

896
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 2: if you're a single parent, you know, or if you're

897
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 2: in a relationship and you're home caring for the kids,

898
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 2: for example, whether you're male or female, and the other

899
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 2: you know, significant other or parent in the scenario is

900
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:29,240
Speaker 2: the full time employee.

901
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 3: And that's a decision made as a family.

902
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 2: Now add you know, years and years where one parent

903
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 2: is out of the workforce, sometimes feels like the one

904
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,880
Speaker 2: who has the cash still calls the shots. And that

905
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 2: can be a real form of control as well. If

906
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 2: you're saying, oh, yeah, try to leave, I dare you.

907
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 2: You're not going to be able to pay for anything

908
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 2: on your own and I have the I have the

909
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:53,280
Speaker 2: bank account information.

910
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 3: What does a person do in that situation? You know?

911
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 8: That is always, always, always the u one of the

912
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 8: toughest cases that I kind of encounter in my practice

913
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 8: because quite off and it's often women. I'm not gonna

914
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 8: say it's always women, but often women. They come to

915
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 8: me and they have no cl what the finances are.

916
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 8: They have no clue within the bank accounts. They are

917
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 8: given access to a credit card that the husband may

918
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 8: cut off of two weeks out of the month when

919
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,879
Speaker 8: they are done with their spending for that particular month.

920
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 8: I mean, it's that is not uncommon and so and

921
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 8: tips of the trade, start your stash account from day one.

922
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 8: Day one, have an account that is yours, yours only,

923
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 8: in your name only, and or name of you and

924
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 8: a family member that you trust, not your spouse, But

925
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 8: start that account almost immediately. Have a credit card in

926
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 8: your name exclusively that they can't cut off access to. Unfortunately,

927
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 8: cash is no longer king. You have to have a

928
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 8: card for most things these days, so make sure that

929
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 8: you've got a separate card so that in case of emergency,

930
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 8: you can still take care of yourself. And then, and

931
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 8: I mean this, don't be afraid to ask for help.

932
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 8: It is not shameful, It doesn't put you in a

933
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 8: bad place to ask, and it's really okay to say

934
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,240
Speaker 8: to say you're not fine and that you need help.

935
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,319
Speaker 8: It doesn't make any less of a person. In fact,

936
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 8: it makes you a stronger person for doing so and

937
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 8: asking friends and family for help. And situations when you're

938
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 8: truly stuck, you would be surprised at how many of

939
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 8: your friends, family and loved ones will step in and say,

940
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 8: girl or guy, I got you.

941
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:31,919
Speaker 3: Yeah.

942
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 2: But sometimes when you find yourself in those situations, you've

943
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 2: been isolated, so oftentimes stage one of this coercion is

944
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 2: getting you away from your family and your friends and

945
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,839
Speaker 2: kind of cutting off contacts with loved ones. So here

946
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 2: you are, you're in a relationship, you're in mom or

947
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 2: dad mode, or you're full time with the kids.

948
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 3: You're in this bubble.

949
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 2: You're not able to get super access, fast access to cash,

950
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:57,839
Speaker 2: and maybe you've been forced to sort of limit your

951
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 2: relationships or let those go. That's a tough spot. I

952
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 2: can't underscore enough. My grandma in heaven is saying it

953
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 2: so loud as we speak. You have to start saving

954
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 2: your own money. She's always saying, put money in the

955
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 2: hems of her clothes. She would pin in the hems

956
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 2: of her clothes.

957
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 3: By the way, she was single.

958
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 2: I don't know who she's eiding the money from, but

959
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 2: she would put the money.

960
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 3: It was it was residual from harder days.

961
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 2: But you know, she would put cash as a habit

962
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 2: in her hemline of her skirts in case of an

963
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 2: emergency from you know, it was she's you know, it

964
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,400
Speaker 2: was obviously in a really tough relationship in her earlier days,

965
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:40,839
Speaker 2: and just in case, you have to make a run

966
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 2: for it, even if it's in small little bills every day,

967
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 2: if you or once a week, if you're just putting

968
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 2: twenty bucks away or whatever the thing is, just so

969
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 2: you have yourself covered for a.

970
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:57,760
Speaker 8: Moment's a gift card. If you've got a completely controlling

971
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 8: and monitors you're spending, get gift cards.

972
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 5: Great ideas.

973
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:04,320
Speaker 8: Oh I had to get it for someone's birthday party.

974
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 8: I had to get it for we have a dinner

975
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 8: coming up. It's one of the gifts. Get gift cards

976
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 8: and stock file and make sure they're like just these

977
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 8: the ones that you can use anywhere.

978
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:14,359
Speaker 3: What a great tip.

979
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:16,640
Speaker 2: And you know you could always sell stuff right go

980
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 2: to a hawk shop if you have that person. You

981
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 2: haven't seen it a bit, you know, if you want to,

982
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 2: you know, sell clothes and things, go to with her store.

983
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,359
Speaker 2: But again just thinking ahead, starting to make your stash,

984
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:30,120
Speaker 2: you know, even in the good times, have that stash Bruin.

985
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a smart one.

986
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 8: Gift cards are a good one.

987
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 3: Great suggestion.

988
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:37,839
Speaker 7: I thought of that because when you said earlier, get

989
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,919
Speaker 7: a credit card in your own name. Some cases they're

990
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 7: in these tough situations where like the spouse or the

991
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 7: partner is watching and we'll see that. But the gift card,

992
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:48,799
Speaker 7: that's clever. So that way they would never know.

993
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 8: I like that.

994
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:52,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if they got dinged for, like, oh, you're

995
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 2: applying for a credit card, why are you doing that?

996
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:56,319
Speaker 3: That could be an inciting event too.

997
00:53:56,360 --> 00:54:00,399
Speaker 2: If you're already in a violent situation and fearful they

998
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 2: may that could make me exacerbated. So you know quietly,

999
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:07,360
Speaker 2: you know you're not alone and there's help.

1000
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:09,479
Speaker 3: Thank you, rachelle Chell.

1001
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, do we have time for one more? We have another.

1002
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 7: We've been doing a lot of We've talked a lot

1003
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 7: about domestic violence, so I think some one of our

1004
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 7: next talkbacks has to do with a long conversation we

1005
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 7: recently had that dealt with domestic violence.

1006
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 5: Adam, let's give that one to try.

1007
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 10: Hi, guys, my n name Sanna from whose camp.

1008
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:27,759
Speaker 3: Sure.

1009
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:31,800
Speaker 10: I was just listening to the segment on domestic silence

1010
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 10: and all sorts of inner relationship violence, and I thought

1011
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 10: the segment was amazing. But I do think that it

1012
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 10: needs to be like its own little segment, more easily

1013
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 10: accessible so that people can reference it specifically. It's not

1014
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 10: really highlighted in too much in the title, and I

1015
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 10: think it's a great reference point for people who don't

1016
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 10: know where they're at domestic relationships. Are so different, every

1017
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,240
Speaker 10: single one of them, and not everybody recognizes the abuse

1018
00:54:58,360 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 10: part of it. Okay, thank you.

1019
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 5: Some much, right, I love our listeners too too.

1020
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, okay, so we'll we'll try to highlight those a

1021
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 7: little bit more and as we move forward.

1022
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1023
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's very embarrassing, you know, I think people

1024
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 2: feel so embarrassed.

1025
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 3: Everyone.

1026
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 2: It's embarrassing and it's very helpless feeling. So you know,

1027
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 2: for anyone listening, you're not allowed to be hopeless.

1028
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 8: There is help and there's no shame or guilt exactly.

1029
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 8: The people that engage in this type of behavior are

1030
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 8: master manipulators, I mean master manipulators, and they target smart,

1031
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 8: successful individuals, male or female. And why do they do

1032
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:43,800
Speaker 8: that Because they know you're going to stick around longer

1033
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 8: because of shame associated with oh my god, how did

1034
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 8: I fall for that?

1035
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:48,560
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1036
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 8: Girl, guy, we're listening, don't it's not. That's what they

1037
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 8: do that. They are designed to pick a part and

1038
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 8: make you feel worthless. And it's not your it's not

1039
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 8: because not your fault. It's not you can be the

1040
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:06,480
Speaker 8: smartest person in the world when a Nobel Peace Prize

1041
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 8: and still fall victim to it.

1042
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 3: It does not.

1043
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 8: It does not. It's not a reflection on who you

1044
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 8: are in any way, shape or form.

1045
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for that. If you're just joining us,

1046
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 4: this is true Crime Tonight, and we have former judge

1047
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:24,799
Speaker 4: Michelle Locke, and we've been answering a bunch of your

1048
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 4: talkbacks and now we wanted to go into the Anna

1049
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 4: Kepner case and ask you.

1050
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 3: A couple of questions.

1051
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 4: So briefly, Anna Kpner, she was the eighteen year old

1052
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 4: high school senior. She lost her life on a Carnival

1053
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 4: Horizon cruise ship. She was on vacation with her very

1054
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 4: blended family and was found dead under her bed. Her

1055
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:55,880
Speaker 4: death has been ruled homicide by asphyxiation. And just to

1056
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 4: set the stage, Anna Kepner the victims. She had been

1057
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 4: sharing a room with her sixteen year old stepbrother who

1058
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:08,240
Speaker 4: is now charged in connects with the homicide, and also

1059
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 4: her fourteen year old biological brother. Michelle, How can family

1060
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 4: dynamics impact, if at all, how a criminal case is prosecuted.

1061
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 8: Oh, I think that family dynamics have a huge bearing

1062
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 8: on how cases are prosecuted for a couple of reasons. One,

1063
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 8: if you don't have anyone in the family willing to

1064
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 8: testify as to what happened. That makes proven a case

1065
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:41,000
Speaker 8: really difficult unless you got to figure fransid on video right,

1066
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 8: makes it completely challenging. And so having the family involved

1067
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 8: in the level of their involvement or un involvement absolutely

1068
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 8: affects the case. The danamics between the parents. In this

1069
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:57,840
Speaker 8: particular case, I actually learned more about her case from

1070
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 8: the family law filing because because it happened on a

1071
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,439
Speaker 8: carnival cruise, it is federal veris fiction. So the case

1072
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:07,080
Speaker 8: is in federal court, and because of that child is

1073
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 8: a minor, all the records in federal court are sealed,

1074
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 8: and so you can't get any information on what actually happened.

1075
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 8: But boy, those family law islings you can sure get

1076
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 8: all the information because the dad of the step brother

1077
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:23,040
Speaker 8: has filed actions in family court. I think down in

1078
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 8: Florida regards, I guess that child. But so all the

1079
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 8: information we're getting us from a family law islings, it's

1080
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 8: not from the federal district court because those are still

1081
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 8: under sal I think if they decide to charge the

1082
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 8: sixteen year old as an adult, then the records will

1083
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 8: get unsealed. But so long as he's a minor. We

1084
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 8: want to ever see the federal side of it.

1085
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:45,520
Speaker 5: I have such a dumb question. I always often.

1086
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 7: Hear people say they're they'll be tried as an adult,

1087
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 7: Like what what is the deciding factor with that?

1088
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 5: Like what what makes you determine which quest direction?

1089
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, that is a great question, and well one varies

1090
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 8: by state, right, but we have like ins we can

1091
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 8: certify a juvenile as an adult in Texas, and so

1092
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 8: in Texas the criminal liability starts today seventeen. So if

1093
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 8: you can be a crime at age seventeen, you can

1094
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 8: go to the adult the big boy prison or big

1095
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 8: girl prison, which I wouldn't recommend for any seventeen year old.

1096
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 8: But in order to certify, they have to meet certain elements.

1097
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 8: They have to be certified by it usually the juvenile judge,

1098
00:59:19,120 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 8: juvenile master, whatever they call them in their respective states,

1099
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:26,200
Speaker 8: and it's usually involved how heinous the crime is, and

1100
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 8: then some other factors that get played in. But you

1101
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 8: can certify a juvenile, but it's a ten year old,

1102
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:34,919
Speaker 8: different story. But a sixteen year old on the CUSP.

1103
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 8: But turn at seventeen you may it'd be more likely

1104
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 8: to be certified as than adults, depending on how heinous

1105
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 8: the actual act was.

1106
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 2: And the difference there would be really housing. Right, So

1107
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 2: you would be tried as an adult and therefore held

1108
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:52,800
Speaker 2: in an adult prison where you're you know, prison mates.

1109
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 2: The fellow inmates would be mates. I made that sound

1110
00:59:56,520 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 2: very fun. No, but your fellow inmates would be adults, right,

1111
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 2: as opposed to having sealed records because you're underage and

1112
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 2: you're being put into a juvenile detention center, and then

1113
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 2: those records might potentially remain sealed after you turn eighteen.

1114
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 8: Yes, so that's always the interesting part that I love

1115
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 8: to point out. Those records aren't always fealed. I know

1116
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:18,360
Speaker 8: when I did criminal sense work way back when in

1117
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 8: my practice now, I was looking at my clients rap

1118
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 8: sheet boil boy, you'd be amazed at how much those

1119
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 8: juvenile arrests come up on those rap sheets, and the

1120
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 8: prosecutors are looking at them for when they're determining what

1121
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 8: they're going to offer in a particular case. So when

1122
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 8: everyone thinks, oh they're filed.

1123
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:37,160
Speaker 3: Not so sealed because you're looking at the totality, it's correction. Good,

1124
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:42,360
Speaker 3: don't assume that's correct. That's good to know. It's funny.

1125
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 4: I was actually going to ask if is that true,

1126
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 4: you know, because we always it's said so much that

1127
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 4: I kind of we accepted this true.

1128
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:53,600
Speaker 3: But interesting, Yeah, everyone assumes it's true.

1129
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 8: And there's so many other factors like the level of

1130
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 8: offense that the juvenile committed can actually have bearing on

1131
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:01,960
Speaker 8: and seeing as an adult, just depending on what the

1132
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 8: offense was, and of course it's all the laws vary

1133
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:07,000
Speaker 8: by state. But yeah, it's not so simple as you

1134
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 8: commit a crime as a kid in its field. It

1135
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 8: is simply not that. And so you still want to

1136
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 8: have at all possible costs a boy, your child getting

1137
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:17,800
Speaker 8: arrested in charge of any crime, no matter the age.

1138
01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 2: The end, that makes sense. Word to live by. Okay, yeah,

1139
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 2: that's fair, that's fair. It's actually very odd advice, that's right.

1140
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:33,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know that takes That is the very true

1141
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 3: common sense.

1142
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 8: No, absolutely, that goes back to what we talked about

1143
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 8: last week. The factor it's like exactly what youre kild

1144
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:40,720
Speaker 8: getting arrested.

1145
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 5: I love exactly right.

1146
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 3: Excuse me, I got so excited I coughed.

1147
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 4: So Michelle, we're so grateful that you were in you

1148
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:54,440
Speaker 4: spend this time and share your wisdom and just clarify

1149
01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:58,959
Speaker 4: things in such an understandable way. So we really really

1150
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 4: appreciate that and look forward to having you back. I

1151
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 4: won't even hope it. I'm going to look forward to it,

1152
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 4: but come.

1153
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:08,240
Speaker 3: Forward to it. Thank you, Thank you. Much more to come.

1154
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 3: There is much more to come. Stick around.

1155
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 2: Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1156
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Steph here with Courtney

1157
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 2: and body and man, how great is Michelle. So listen,

1158
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 2: if you have any questions for the judge, we're going

1159
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:36,440
Speaker 2: to call that segment, tell it to the judge and

1160
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:38,840
Speaker 2: just you know, leave us a talk back. Does download

1161
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 2: your iHeartRadio app top right hand corner, You guys do

1162
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:42,600
Speaker 2: this so so well.

1163
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:44,560
Speaker 3: There's a little microphone icon.

1164
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 2: Just press it, leave a message or a question for

1165
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:51,440
Speaker 2: the judge and then we'll make sure she gets it.

1166
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 2: And when she's back, which we'll try to keep her

1167
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:57,280
Speaker 2: in her great rotation, we could at least get some

1168
01:02:57,320 --> 01:02:59,800
Speaker 2: of those questions answered.

1169
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 4: I love when she comes. She's just so plain spoken.

1170
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 4: I love the duve factor. I love having the insight

1171
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 4: of someone who's been on the bench. And listen, if

1172
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 4: anyone else wants to kind of check her out a

1173
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 4: little bit more. She's at Michelle Locke dot com. Michelle

1174
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 4: has one L and an E at the end of Locke. Also,

1175
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:26,959
Speaker 4: you can find Michelle on Instagram at attorney Michelle Lock.

1176
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 3: So just in case you want to.

1177
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:34,440
Speaker 2: Waylays matter, it should not matter in the slightest but

1178
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 2: it doesn't.

1179
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 3: Know you can't see her. She's like fabulous, Yeah, I

1180
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:39,840
Speaker 3: want to be.

1181
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 7: A say when you first said, oh, there's a judge

1182
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 7: that you introduced me to, you know, bring her on

1183
01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 7: the show. Picture she's going to be this gray haired

1184
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:50,880
Speaker 7: old woman and cranky, she was like so hip and cool.

1185
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 7: On the phone, We're like talking about everything that is amazing.

1186
01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 3: I know.

1187
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 2: We were picturing like somebody in like a white like

1188
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:00,160
Speaker 2: wig with like powder on it right to.

1189
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 7: Email the day that's rod ruffles, and of course she

1190
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:15,560
Speaker 7: always carries her gavel, but yeah, what world I live in.

1191
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:21,800
Speaker 3: Is exactly We were like, Wow. She's like, you know,

1192
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 3: she is not okay, talk back. Let's go to one.

1193
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:32,480
Speaker 11: Good Afternoon ladies. You're talking about the Epstein Files and

1194
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 11: that weird, creepy desert area in New Mexico. So if

1195
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:41,440
Speaker 11: Epstein was getting all these girls pregnant. What happened to

1196
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 11: all of these children? Where did the kids go? Are

1197
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:45,840
Speaker 11: they still alive?

1198
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 4: I want to know.

1199
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:50,720
Speaker 3: That's a loaded question.

1200
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:53,800
Speaker 5: Ready, make sure it's on.

1201
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 3: I'm going to get shot out.

1202
01:04:56,720 --> 01:04:58,920
Speaker 2: I'm too afraid to say any of this out loud. Well, Core,

1203
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:01,440
Speaker 2: give us a little of the smart background and then all.

1204
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:05,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, So here's I mean, here's what's known and confirmed.

1205
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:10,080
Speaker 4: And by the way, your question is so excellent. What's

1206
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 4: confirmed is Epstein spoke very freely about the fact that

1207
01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 4: he planned a transhumanist project, and by that he told

1208
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 4: many people, like at dinner parties or out at you know,

1209
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:26,040
Speaker 4: out in his public like if you were with a

1210
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:28,920
Speaker 4: group of friends. So Epstein told many people, and he

1211
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:32,200
Speaker 4: wanted to spread his DNA. He was going to impregnate

1212
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:35,920
Speaker 4: women at the Zoro Ranch in New Mexico, and that

1213
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:38,640
Speaker 4: was in an effort to create what he thought would be.

1214
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 3: Quote perfect offspring.

1215
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 4: What also is confirmed is Epstein mentioned it was it

1216
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:50,360
Speaker 4: was inspired by this thing basically a genius sperm bank concept.

1217
01:05:50,440 --> 01:05:53,520
Speaker 4: So it's a sperm bank. You guessed it only if

1218
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:54,760
Speaker 4: you're I guess in mensa.

1219
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 8: I don't know.

1220
01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 4: If you have to show your MENSA card and you know,

1221
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 4: then you have it's called the repository for germinal choice.

1222
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:11,120
Speaker 4: So that's what's confirmed. How many if well, there's actually

1223
01:06:11,120 --> 01:06:14,080
Speaker 4: another there's a teen victim who gave birth around two

1224
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:17,320
Speaker 4: thousand and two. She's about sixteen to seventeen years old,

1225
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:22,280
Speaker 4: and this is per her diary entries and her baby,

1226
01:06:22,480 --> 01:06:27,680
Speaker 4: she reporter, was taken minutes after delivery under Gillene Maxwell's supervision.

1227
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:32,480
Speaker 7: Now that one is an alleged piece of information or

1228
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 7: is that accurate as well?

1229
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:38,600
Speaker 4: It's alleged via her diary entrees.

1230
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:43,200
Speaker 3: I think that holds good weight. But that's a good distinction, okay.

1231
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 2: And there's three schools of thought with this one. So

1232
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 2: the New Mexico Ranch, Just to break anybody up to speed,

1233
01:06:49,080 --> 01:06:51,880
Speaker 2: we know that Jeffrey Epstein had an island which was

1234
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:55,800
Speaker 2: you know, Little Saint John, far far away, but in

1235
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:59,360
Speaker 2: New Mexico, Little Saint James rather thank you. Adam, by

1236
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:02,400
Speaker 2: the way, is in the rabbit hole like nobody's business.

1237
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 2: So get ready because Adam's going to tell us so

1238
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 2: much scoop tonight. He's been really on it and it's

1239
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 2: so fun, Adam, so jump in. He had this other ranch,

1240
01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 2: and now there's been some allegations that maybe there have

1241
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:18,720
Speaker 2: been some bodies buried there. So therefore, you know they're

1242
01:07:19,000 --> 01:07:22,920
Speaker 2: investigating as of today officially interesting though, and I think

1243
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 2: it's just worth noting because I don't know why the

1244
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 2: discrepancy occurred. If allegations were made in the nineties, which

1245
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 2: we know they were from the farmer sisters, both of

1246
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 2: them have made allegations, both to the FBI in the nineties,

1247
01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 2: I might add, and at the hands of several old

1248
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:43,480
Speaker 2: people that are kind of noted in these said files,

1249
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:48,720
Speaker 2: and there was no investigation whatsoever. And then in twenty nineteen,

1250
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:53,960
Speaker 2: we're now finding out they were doing a local state

1251
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:58,800
Speaker 2: investigation and a local investigation, and the federal government stepped

1252
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:02,200
Speaker 2: in to say to the state government, no, no, we

1253
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:04,440
Speaker 2: want to have all of your findings, to send it

1254
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 2: to us, and we'll take it from here. And then

1255
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:11,760
Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen, the DOJ officially closed that investigation for

1256
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:14,680
Speaker 2: reasons we do not know. All we know is that

1257
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:18,759
Speaker 2: it was Bill Barr, was the head of the DOJ

1258
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:23,720
Speaker 2: at that time, who also oversaw the Epstein's suicide. In

1259
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 2: the investigation surrounding his alleged suicide. And then also it

1260
01:08:29,320 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 2: was a Trump was in office at that time. Again,

1261
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:34,920
Speaker 2: this is not political. It seems like whoever was in

1262
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:38,599
Speaker 2: office had this information thereafter in likely prior as well.

1263
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:41,000
Speaker 3: So again poks on all houses.

1264
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:44,880
Speaker 2: But why in the world would somebody not at least

1265
01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 2: pursue some level of an investigation at all. Now we're

1266
01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:52,519
Speaker 2: finding out these allegations not only have been verified based

1267
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:57,560
Speaker 2: on these files, they were completely discounted and they're really egregious.

1268
01:08:57,680 --> 01:09:00,439
Speaker 2: Like what's being discussed is trendous as far as the

1269
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:04,240
Speaker 2: kids go. It's like three schools of thought. Either they're

1270
01:09:04,320 --> 01:09:08,600
Speaker 2: living their best life in Epstein Jeffrey Epstein was a

1271
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:12,760
Speaker 2: tremendous parent from a distance, and this person is maybe unidentified,

1272
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:16,080
Speaker 2: or these children from this place are unidentified and living

1273
01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:19,479
Speaker 2: a good life. Or based on the files which we

1274
01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:23,280
Speaker 2: cannot get full confirmation on, there's a lot of chatter

1275
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:29,679
Speaker 2: about sacrifices, or a lot of chatter about babies being

1276
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:33,040
Speaker 2: used in experiments, and then there's a lot of chatter

1277
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:37,360
Speaker 2: just about you know, girls being raised and sold and

1278
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:41,679
Speaker 2: they're not having passports and it just becomes a way

1279
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 2: of either harvesting women.

1280
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:46,800
Speaker 3: These are words that we're reading, not making up.

1281
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:50,320
Speaker 2: But again, even as I say this out loud, Adam,

1282
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:52,479
Speaker 2: how did I do? Did that just sound so crazy

1283
01:09:52,520 --> 01:09:53,639
Speaker 2: when it comes out of my mouth?

1284
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:54,320
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1285
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:57,519
Speaker 2: I actually, like my brain turns off even hearing myself

1286
01:09:57,600 --> 01:10:00,120
Speaker 2: say it, because it sounds so far fetched.

1287
01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:03,400
Speaker 12: Right, Yeah, I mean it's really uh, I mean, it's

1288
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:08,400
Speaker 12: very disturbing stuff. And what's frustrating is that there's uh,

1289
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:12,360
Speaker 12: it's always alluded to, you know, they never like there

1290
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:15,640
Speaker 12: is talk about like girls, you know, they don't have

1291
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:19,680
Speaker 12: their passports, they're trafficking them around. And and then you

1292
01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:23,280
Speaker 12: have this diary entry where the girl is talking about

1293
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:26,280
Speaker 12: giving birth to children who are being taken away from her.

1294
01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:31,439
Speaker 12: It's frustrating, I say, it's frustrating because there's no like

1295
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:35,160
Speaker 12: real like conformation. You know, it is in the realm

1296
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:40,040
Speaker 12: of alleged But that that's what makes it so frustrating

1297
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:43,040
Speaker 12: that the Zura ranch was never properly investigated.

1298
01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:45,280
Speaker 3: Because this is bad.

1299
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:48,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, if it was completely you know, completely wrong, but

1300
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:54,920
Speaker 2: we know that Tina Farmer was proven vindicated, so we

1301
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 2: know parts of these at least these allegations are accurate.

1302
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:01,000
Speaker 3: So it's it's pretty disturbing.

1303
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 2: It's also kind of disturbing that the DOJ is not

1304
01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:05,439
Speaker 2: doing an act of investigation in a bigger way real

1305
01:11:05,479 --> 01:11:07,280
Speaker 2: time on all of these files that we're seeing, like

1306
01:11:07,320 --> 01:11:11,160
Speaker 2: where is the local accountability? And again, there's so many

1307
01:11:11,240 --> 01:11:14,520
Speaker 2: big names involved. Everybody should just be giving the information

1308
01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:16,880
Speaker 2: they have so that we can help find some justice.

1309
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:20,400
Speaker 2: By the way, Jeffrey Epstein was not a solo operation man.

1310
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:24,280
Speaker 2: He was a part of a very big enterprise and network.

1311
01:11:24,479 --> 01:11:27,680
Speaker 2: That network and enterprise is very functioning likely at this

1312
01:11:27,800 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 2: exact time, and none of the people that are being

1313
01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:35,799
Speaker 2: associated with these ongoings are being brought into any sticky

1314
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:40,080
Speaker 2: situations other than testifying and then nothing happens les Wexner,

1315
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:43,400
Speaker 2: Leon Black. I mean, some of these names, Howard Lutnik,

1316
01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:47,320
Speaker 2: that are kind of associated in pretty egregious ways, they

1317
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:51,719
Speaker 2: claim their innocence, We should at least have them speaking

1318
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:53,160
Speaker 2: openly so we can put it to bed.

1319
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:56,240
Speaker 7: Can I just point out I was just going to say,

1320
01:11:56,240 --> 01:11:57,880
Speaker 7: I wanted to point out one thing with the ranch,

1321
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:00,360
Speaker 7: which we talked about before, and just for any who's

1322
01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:03,080
Speaker 7: not super familiar with it, Like when we first described that,

1323
01:12:03,160 --> 01:12:05,639
Speaker 7: Iro envisioned like oh quaint, little, small little ranch, We're

1324
01:12:05,640 --> 01:12:08,719
Speaker 7: not talking like ranch. This is like it was listed

1325
01:12:08,760 --> 01:12:12,040
Speaker 7: for twenty seven million. It's twenty six thousand square feet

1326
01:12:12,320 --> 01:12:14,839
Speaker 7: and it's supposed that what they're saying is it's structured

1327
01:12:14,840 --> 01:12:20,400
Speaker 7: as a controlled environment for psychological manipulation, sexual abuse, and experimentation.

1328
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:22,680
Speaker 7: So there are a lot of pinhole cameras. There's a

1329
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:25,519
Speaker 7: lot of things within it that are completely there's.

1330
01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:26,679
Speaker 3: Pinhole cameras everywhere.

1331
01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:29,479
Speaker 2: There's an actual like the Shining the movie The Shining,

1332
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:32,560
Speaker 2: when they're at the end running around that creepy maze

1333
01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:35,440
Speaker 2: when he's looking at Jack Nicholson is chasing.

1334
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:37,440
Speaker 3: You know, the his wife.

1335
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, he has one of those you know those mazes

1336
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:44,280
Speaker 2: in the you know, in the area there's a helicopter

1337
01:12:44,439 --> 01:12:48,240
Speaker 2: where Giley and Maxwell would helicopter in, said people.

1338
01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:49,360
Speaker 3: And by the.

1339
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:51,439
Speaker 2: Way, it's like your worst nightmare because again, if you

1340
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:55,360
Speaker 2: wanted to get help or run, there is literally nowhere to.

1341
01:12:55,360 --> 01:12:56,880
Speaker 3: Go, where to go, no place.

1342
01:12:57,160 --> 01:13:00,759
Speaker 5: It's almost like you're descriolated. It's almost another island.

1343
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:03,120
Speaker 7: This is a old island, but this one is in

1344
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:05,760
Speaker 7: the desert in this area.

1345
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:09,080
Speaker 12: But oh go ahead, well maybe I'm going to say, well,

1346
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:12,519
Speaker 12: you're going to say taha. But they hasn't New Mexico

1347
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:14,800
Speaker 12: opened investigations now, aren't they?

1348
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:19,320
Speaker 4: I was going to say, hey, yeah, news, it's you know,

1349
01:13:19,439 --> 01:13:22,600
Speaker 4: should should have happened in twenty nineteen or back in

1350
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:26,160
Speaker 4: the nineties when it was first alleged. Yes, can't dial

1351
01:13:26,240 --> 01:13:30,759
Speaker 4: back the hands of time. So it is now being searched.

1352
01:13:32,360 --> 01:13:35,479
Speaker 4: And you know this is due to civil lawsuits, survivor

1353
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:40,240
Speaker 4: accounts and tips from locals, and so the criminal investigation

1354
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:41,120
Speaker 4: is reopened.

1355
01:13:42,920 --> 01:13:45,040
Speaker 3: And there's even there's.

1356
01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:49,080
Speaker 4: A bipartisan state commission to investigate what really happened there

1357
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:52,320
Speaker 4: good and a lot of this. Do you guys know

1358
01:13:52,840 --> 01:13:56,879
Speaker 4: what happened? Like where the initial allegation of two potential

1359
01:13:56,880 --> 01:13:57,719
Speaker 4: bodies buried?

1360
01:13:58,439 --> 01:14:01,599
Speaker 3: This was Newsy, let's do it. Bring it on. Yeah,

1361
01:14:01,600 --> 01:14:02,479
Speaker 3: this was news to me.

1362
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:08,040
Speaker 4: So in these millions of files that were released, one

1363
01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:10,599
Speaker 4: of which was an email that was received in twenty

1364
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:14,160
Speaker 4: nineteen by a local radio host, a guy named Eddie Aragon,

1365
01:14:15,320 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 4: and that email alleged that somewhere in the hills outside

1366
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:22,439
Speaker 4: of Zoro, two foreign girls were buried on orders of

1367
01:14:22,560 --> 01:14:29,080
Speaker 4: Jeffrey and Madam g end Quote. And this host told

1368
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:31,920
Speaker 4: CNN he believed the email came from someone connected to

1369
01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:35,080
Speaker 4: the ranch, but either he did not or could not

1370
01:14:35,400 --> 01:14:40,280
Speaker 4: identify the sender, and the email further alleges that the

1371
01:14:40,320 --> 01:14:45,320
Speaker 4: deaths were done by strangulation during quote rough fetish sex.

1372
01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:50,639
Speaker 4: And you know this, This radio host who received the email,

1373
01:14:50,720 --> 01:14:53,760
Speaker 4: he took it to the local FBI office, shared it

1374
01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:58,600
Speaker 4: with an agent and here we are seven years later.

1375
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:02,920
Speaker 3: And the investigation that's happening now.

1376
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:06,280
Speaker 12: Yeah, and then can I mention the So it was

1377
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:08,800
Speaker 12: recently revealed last time we talked about the ranch, that

1378
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:13,400
Speaker 12: the person who bought the ranch, which was previously kept

1379
01:15:13,479 --> 01:15:17,160
Speaker 12: private until just a couple months ago. There's a man

1380
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:21,519
Speaker 12: named Don Huffines who I believe just got nominated for

1381
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:26,040
Speaker 12: Texas comptroller. He won his primary race.

1382
01:15:26,120 --> 01:15:26,280
Speaker 1: Yep.

1383
01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:30,120
Speaker 12: So right after we did that last segment on a

1384
01:15:30,280 --> 01:15:33,200
Speaker 12: Zoro ranch, he did an interview I believe it was

1385
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:36,799
Speaker 12: with Fox News, but he was talking about his plans

1386
01:15:36,920 --> 01:15:39,120
Speaker 12: for what he was going to do with a now

1387
01:15:39,160 --> 01:15:41,519
Speaker 12: called San Raphael ranch.

1388
01:15:43,160 --> 01:15:44,519
Speaker 3: So he has this plan.

1389
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:47,599
Speaker 12: He wants to turn it into a new Christian retreat.

1390
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:50,400
Speaker 12: He wants to kind of redeem the property. But he

1391
01:15:50,439 --> 01:15:53,559
Speaker 12: said in this interview that construction was already underway. So

1392
01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:56,960
Speaker 12: he's saying that there was construction happening on the ranch

1393
01:15:57,560 --> 01:16:01,720
Speaker 12: before an investigation was even taking place, And I don't know,

1394
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:04,000
Speaker 12: that did not sit right with me to hear.

1395
01:16:06,040 --> 01:16:07,960
Speaker 3: I couldn't agree with you more.

1396
01:16:08,240 --> 01:16:10,800
Speaker 4: And the you know, I don't know if irony is

1397
01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:15,080
Speaker 4: the right word of this location being turned into a

1398
01:16:15,880 --> 01:16:18,719
Speaker 4: you know, a retreat for Christians.

1399
01:16:18,160 --> 01:16:19,920
Speaker 3: But it's quite a turn.

1400
01:16:22,320 --> 01:16:23,160
Speaker 5: Wow, that's crazy.

1401
01:16:23,200 --> 01:16:27,880
Speaker 4: Also, interestingly, Don Huffins, his son Russell works in the

1402
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:30,520
Speaker 4: Trump White House Office of Cabinet Affairs.

1403
01:16:31,080 --> 01:16:36,200
Speaker 2: Oh, the owner, the new owner of their zero Ranches,

1404
01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:41,840
Speaker 2: son Donald currently works got it well, I mean, I

1405
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:45,520
Speaker 2: think it's a bummer that they're suddenly doing an investigation

1406
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:49,920
Speaker 2: after ground has been broken. But listen, we will take

1407
01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:52,799
Speaker 2: everything as it comes and be grateful that it's happening.

1408
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:56,559
Speaker 2: And you know, may God bless all the survivors who

1409
01:16:56,560 --> 01:16:59,880
Speaker 2: have been screaming from the rooftops. Let them please, please

1410
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:03,160
Speaker 2: please get some justice it's taken to you know, they're

1411
01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:06,320
Speaker 2: making claims that they're going to speak out themselves and

1412
01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:09,400
Speaker 2: share that list. Even Thomas Massey has said the same that,

1413
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:12,240
Speaker 2: you know, accountability has to happen.

1414
01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:13,240
Speaker 5: People are still.

1415
01:17:13,160 --> 01:17:16,800
Speaker 2: Keeping it very much alive and they should It's a

1416
01:17:16,840 --> 01:17:19,960
Speaker 2: lot to take in, but you know, just know, the

1417
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:21,679
Speaker 2: machine is still moving behind the scenes.

1418
01:17:22,439 --> 01:17:28,760
Speaker 12: Thanks, and they are explicitly searching for these bodies as

1419
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:31,479
Speaker 12: well on the properties. So we'll have to keep an

1420
01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:34,400
Speaker 12: eye on it and see if anything is uncovered in

1421
01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:35,800
Speaker 12: this investigation here.

1422
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:40,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, because I mean this ranch, what did you say,

1423
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:43,760
Speaker 4: twenty six thousand acres and there's about twenty six thousand

1424
01:17:44,360 --> 01:17:49,599
Speaker 4: really odd details about it. So we will come back

1425
01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:54,160
Speaker 4: as more information comes up. Stick around, we have more

1426
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:59,000
Speaker 4: to dig into. We have actually a caller on the line,

1427
01:17:59,040 --> 01:18:01,880
Speaker 4: so they'll be joining. That's right after commercial and after

1428
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:06,600
Speaker 4: that we have some talkbacks True Crime Tonight.

1429
01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:18,439
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1430
01:18:18,479 --> 01:18:21,240
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Steph here with Courtney

1431
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:24,120
Speaker 2: and Taha and Body of course Sam and Adam.

1432
01:18:24,360 --> 01:18:25,120
Speaker 3: So listen on.

1433
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:29,240
Speaker 2: Thursday, make sure you tune in Thursday Live. Amanda Knox

1434
01:18:29,320 --> 01:18:32,360
Speaker 2: is going to be back with us. You'll remember Amanda Knox.

1435
01:18:32,360 --> 01:18:35,360
Speaker 2: She was accused of the most hideous crime lives to

1436
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:37,479
Speaker 2: tell the tale, and boy what a tale it is,

1437
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:39,920
Speaker 2: And she has a brand new project that she's here

1438
01:18:39,920 --> 01:18:42,800
Speaker 2: to share with us and answer any of your questions,

1439
01:18:43,160 --> 01:18:45,280
Speaker 2: So again, now would be the time to start stacking

1440
01:18:45,360 --> 01:18:49,320
Speaker 2: up those talkbacks or dm us for any of your

1441
01:18:49,400 --> 01:18:52,160
Speaker 2: questions for Amanda. We're so excited. Actually we have a

1442
01:18:52,200 --> 01:18:55,160
Speaker 2: caller right now, Sebastian. Welcome to the show.

1443
01:18:57,640 --> 01:19:01,000
Speaker 13: I'm there a true crime tonight, Rhode Island.

1444
01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:05,800
Speaker 3: Excited to a test. This is Courtney. I was like,

1445
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:09,720
Speaker 3: we love spashion. Yeah, how are you?

1446
01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:11,040
Speaker 13: Day one listener?

1447
01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:12,200
Speaker 8: I love you guys.

1448
01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:17,280
Speaker 13: So you asked about potential organizations to get involved with,

1449
01:19:17,479 --> 01:19:19,800
Speaker 13: and I don't have enough good things to say about

1450
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:27,840
Speaker 13: the Wounded Warrior Project, Families and Veteran Access Resources. While

1451
01:19:27,880 --> 01:19:31,720
Speaker 13: they love monetary donations, they also have toolkits so you

1452
01:19:31,720 --> 01:19:35,479
Speaker 13: can organize a five K or even stream like video games.

1453
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:39,960
Speaker 13: Body it, let's see your Minecraft world, but highly recommend

1454
01:19:39,960 --> 01:19:43,120
Speaker 13: those ladder because the real life saver and veteran lives

1455
01:19:43,320 --> 01:19:45,559
Speaker 13: is community.

1456
01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:48,280
Speaker 6: You know, it is so true because it's again like you,

1457
01:19:48,280 --> 01:19:49,120
Speaker 6: you don't realize it.

1458
01:19:49,160 --> 01:19:51,000
Speaker 2: I mean we're thinking about it twenty four hours a

1459
01:19:51,080 --> 01:19:55,080
Speaker 2: day and it's such a sacrifice for everybody involved.

1460
01:19:55,080 --> 01:19:57,360
Speaker 3: So yes, so can the Wounded Warriors.

1461
01:19:57,400 --> 01:20:00,240
Speaker 2: We'll put this up on our website too, right, do

1462
01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:03,519
Speaker 2: that Sebastian, that's such a great call. You know, we're

1463
01:20:03,520 --> 01:20:06,519
Speaker 2: talking to iHeart too, and that's the perfect recommendation. Maybe

1464
01:20:06,520 --> 01:20:09,759
Speaker 2: there's a partnership to be had there. But anybody listening,

1465
01:20:09,960 --> 01:20:14,479
Speaker 2: I know our listeners are so concerned and worried, crazy

1466
01:20:14,520 --> 01:20:17,200
Speaker 2: for the troops, and you know we're all just sending

1467
01:20:17,280 --> 01:20:18,840
Speaker 2: prayers and want to do whatever we can.

1468
01:20:19,240 --> 01:20:22,880
Speaker 3: I am, sign me and Coach, We're gonna do it up.

1469
01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:25,680
Speaker 3: How is Rhode Island is treating you well, Sebastian.

1470
01:20:27,800 --> 01:20:31,439
Speaker 13: It's been a hectic year. We normally don't have mass shooting,

1471
01:20:32,240 --> 01:20:36,479
Speaker 13: but there was incident at Brown University that you covered,

1472
01:20:36,560 --> 01:20:41,120
Speaker 13: and then there's also all hockey rink shooting. It's normally

1473
01:20:41,160 --> 01:20:43,840
Speaker 13: a state of one to three murders a year and

1474
01:20:43,880 --> 01:20:45,400
Speaker 13: we're already a long past that.

1475
01:20:46,040 --> 01:20:46,519
Speaker 1: Wow.

1476
01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:50,040
Speaker 3: Wow, it's really scary.

1477
01:20:50,040 --> 01:20:52,479
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for keeping us all strong Island in

1478
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:54,959
Speaker 2: the house, from a Long Islander to a Rhode Islander.

1479
01:20:56,240 --> 01:20:58,040
Speaker 2: You know we're crazy for you, and thank you for

1480
01:20:58,080 --> 01:20:58,840
Speaker 2: the recommendation.

1481
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:01,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, thank you so much.

1482
01:21:01,240 --> 01:21:04,960
Speaker 4: The Bastian and Wounded Warrior Project, it really is a

1483
01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:08,439
Speaker 4: good one. I have I've mentioned several members of my family,

1484
01:21:08,600 --> 01:21:12,160
Speaker 4: like many of us are in the military, and man,

1485
01:21:12,240 --> 01:21:16,559
Speaker 4: one of my cousins who's a marine, has done a

1486
01:21:16,640 --> 01:21:19,519
Speaker 4: lot of runs and we all donate over the course

1487
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:21,920
Speaker 4: of many years wounded warrior projects.

1488
01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:23,719
Speaker 2: And what does that mean when you say the runs,

1489
01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:26,920
Speaker 2: meaning like a five k run, if you organize the

1490
01:21:27,040 --> 01:21:30,360
Speaker 2: run and that money goes to the donation to is

1491
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:30,960
Speaker 2: that what you mean?

1492
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:35,160
Speaker 4: Yes, you can organize. Yes, that's exactly right. You know

1493
01:21:35,200 --> 01:21:39,920
Speaker 4: how people can sponsor you too, Yes, to run, I

1494
01:21:39,920 --> 01:21:41,639
Speaker 4: would be the worst sponsor. I would be the worst

1495
01:21:41,640 --> 01:21:43,720
Speaker 4: person to sponsor in that category. But I will find

1496
01:21:43,760 --> 01:21:47,040
Speaker 4: a different category to be very effective in. Yes, but

1497
01:21:47,120 --> 01:21:48,080
Speaker 4: it's really important.

1498
01:21:48,320 --> 01:21:51,519
Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean my heart just breaks and you know,

1499
01:21:51,680 --> 01:21:53,920
Speaker 2: lots of sacrifice out there right now.

1500
01:21:54,120 --> 01:21:56,479
Speaker 5: That was a good suggestion. Thanks to the Bashi for that.

1501
01:21:56,560 --> 01:21:57,760
Speaker 3: But let's go to a talk that.

1502
01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:00,439
Speaker 8: Ido.

1503
01:22:00,840 --> 01:22:03,479
Speaker 13: Girls, you are not just in matt Lock.

1504
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:06,679
Speaker 10: Let me tell you Mattlock is back with Kathy Baits.

1505
01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:07,920
Speaker 3: It is amazing.

1506
01:22:08,400 --> 01:22:11,960
Speaker 2: Is such a good show, very diverse cast, which I love,

1507
01:22:12,200 --> 01:22:15,920
Speaker 2: and the plot is right up all of your alley.

1508
01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:16,519
Speaker 4: It's amazing.

1509
01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:17,559
Speaker 9: You should check it out.

1510
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:21,519
Speaker 3: Oh, such a good recommendation. So yes, she's so right.

1511
01:22:21,640 --> 01:22:23,000
Speaker 3: It's like it's Kathy Baits.

1512
01:22:23,080 --> 01:22:26,920
Speaker 5: Come on, I've seen it already. I have watched it, okay,

1513
01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:27,959
Speaker 5: and you two court.

1514
01:22:28,120 --> 01:22:32,000
Speaker 4: I haven't, but I love Kathy Baits so much. And listen, Ali,

1515
01:22:32,600 --> 01:22:35,479
Speaker 4: you are correct. And that was me and I Actually

1516
01:22:35,840 --> 01:22:38,120
Speaker 4: I didn't mean to make a dig at Mattlock. I

1517
01:22:38,160 --> 01:22:40,439
Speaker 4: meant to make a ticket Stephanie. It was really more

1518
01:22:40,479 --> 01:22:43,120
Speaker 4: of it. It was more of a digt me and yeah.

1519
01:22:43,160 --> 01:22:46,400
Speaker 4: So we show our love for each other. And I

1520
01:22:46,479 --> 01:22:55,160
Speaker 4: experienced love through heckling, so that's my love language. But yeah,

1521
01:22:55,200 --> 01:22:55,800
Speaker 4: it's really good.

1522
01:22:55,880 --> 01:22:57,720
Speaker 3: Check it out. It's juicy and she's so right.

1523
01:22:57,760 --> 01:22:59,920
Speaker 2: The cast is so diverse because it's like a reimagination

1524
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:02,280
Speaker 2: and of what we know of the old show if

1525
01:23:02,280 --> 01:23:02,880
Speaker 2: you remember it.

1526
01:23:04,080 --> 01:23:04,519
Speaker 5: I love that.

1527
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:07,000
Speaker 3: But yes, I know we have more talk bags.

1528
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:08,920
Speaker 4: But I just wanted to say one more thing about

1529
01:23:08,920 --> 01:23:12,120
Speaker 4: Amanda Knox, who was such a great.

1530
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:13,759
Speaker 3: Guest and such an inspiring guest.

1531
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:18,679
Speaker 4: I'm so really excited to hear about her podcast Doubt.

1532
01:23:19,280 --> 01:23:23,960
Speaker 4: It's the Case of Lucy let Be Yeah, and it

1533
01:23:24,120 --> 01:23:27,920
Speaker 4: asks a lot of really interesting questions. Is our cases

1534
01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:30,920
Speaker 4: open and shut? And just looks at things with the

1535
01:23:31,040 --> 01:23:33,400
Speaker 4: really a lens that I feel like Amanda Knox so

1536
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:36,520
Speaker 4: uniquely would hold.

1537
01:23:36,880 --> 01:23:40,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, she's the poster child for perspective, right, we all

1538
01:23:40,560 --> 01:23:43,479
Speaker 2: kind of jumped up. Speaking for myself, you know, I

1539
01:23:43,520 --> 01:23:45,920
Speaker 2: saw that case at the time, and yeah, filled in

1540
01:23:45,960 --> 01:23:49,640
Speaker 2: blanks and had a perspective that was being presented to

1541
01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:52,360
Speaker 2: us yet frankly by the media, and I ate it up.

1542
01:23:52,600 --> 01:23:56,000
Speaker 2: And that's you know, beautiful young girl had to live it.

1543
01:23:56,000 --> 01:23:57,200
Speaker 3: It's unbelievable.

1544
01:23:57,400 --> 01:23:58,120
Speaker 5: It's crazy.

1545
01:23:58,200 --> 01:24:00,320
Speaker 7: And to Coordney, you are the one that brought the

1546
01:24:00,520 --> 01:24:03,720
Speaker 7: podcast or this new podcast that Amanda's working on to

1547
01:24:03,800 --> 01:24:05,920
Speaker 7: my attention, But I don't know how much you both

1548
01:24:05,960 --> 01:24:08,080
Speaker 7: know about it. But it just premiered last month and

1549
01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:10,559
Speaker 7: there are only two episodes that are out right now.

1550
01:24:10,960 --> 01:24:14,439
Speaker 7: But it's a case about a British neo natal nurse.

1551
01:24:14,800 --> 01:24:19,320
Speaker 7: She was convicted of killing seven premature babies. It was

1552
01:24:19,320 --> 01:24:22,840
Speaker 7: shocking to the UK and the world. But Amanda is

1553
01:24:23,439 --> 01:24:26,519
Speaker 7: looking deeper into it because there are a lot of

1554
01:24:27,040 --> 01:24:29,519
Speaker 7: there's a lot of information that's kind of saying maybe

1555
01:24:29,560 --> 01:24:32,559
Speaker 7: this isn't actually what happened, and she was wrongfully accused

1556
01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:33,120
Speaker 7: of some of this.

1557
01:24:33,240 --> 01:24:35,680
Speaker 5: So it's a case that it sounds like.

1558
01:24:35,640 --> 01:24:37,040
Speaker 7: When you know, I've been talking to some of the

1559
01:24:37,040 --> 01:24:40,439
Speaker 7: people with Amanda that really resonated with her, and when

1560
01:24:40,479 --> 01:24:42,360
Speaker 7: you hear her passion, it's going to be I think

1561
01:24:42,360 --> 01:24:44,400
Speaker 7: it's going to be a really really good interview with her.

1562
01:24:45,120 --> 01:24:48,800
Speaker 2: Doubt is a great title, isn't it.

1563
01:24:48,920 --> 01:24:49,120
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1564
01:24:49,160 --> 01:24:49,880
Speaker 3: I mean it really is.

1565
01:24:49,920 --> 01:24:52,040
Speaker 2: I know that's a play, right, the play, the very

1566
01:24:52,080 --> 01:24:56,880
Speaker 2: famous play called Doubts that is really also quite good,

1567
01:24:56,920 --> 01:25:00,559
Speaker 2: I think. I think Philip Seymour Hoffman and Meryl did

1568
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:04,400
Speaker 2: an adaptation of it worth a watch. But yeah, it's

1569
01:25:04,439 --> 01:25:07,160
Speaker 2: a great title, and it's the perfect word to sort

1570
01:25:07,160 --> 01:25:10,400
Speaker 2: of sum up her experience. And you know that she

1571
01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:12,320
Speaker 2: had to live in the most harrowing way in a

1572
01:25:12,320 --> 01:25:13,680
Speaker 2: different country.

1573
01:25:13,720 --> 01:25:16,559
Speaker 7: Right, I know that's the part for me that I

1574
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:18,960
Speaker 7: think of all the worst nightmares would be to have

1575
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:22,680
Speaker 7: some sort of issue in a foreign country where I

1576
01:25:22,680 --> 01:25:25,080
Speaker 7: don't speak the language thoroughly. Now I have to deal

1577
01:25:25,120 --> 01:25:27,360
Speaker 7: with the police and being it just it sounds like

1578
01:25:27,400 --> 01:25:29,800
Speaker 7: it's just I could not imagine like the strength you

1579
01:25:29,800 --> 01:25:30,240
Speaker 7: would need.

1580
01:25:30,840 --> 01:25:33,200
Speaker 2: By the way, just you know, since we're covering this,

1581
01:25:33,200 --> 01:25:35,240
Speaker 2: this has come up and I've just seen this on

1582
01:25:35,280 --> 01:25:38,040
Speaker 2: many news sources today. Maybe worth mentioning because there is

1583
01:25:38,080 --> 01:25:40,959
Speaker 2: obviously so much going on in airports right now. Obviously

1584
01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:44,960
Speaker 2: we're in a partial government shutdown, so TSA officers or

1585
01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:47,280
Speaker 2: there's a bit of a shortage and that's causing so

1586
01:25:47,320 --> 01:25:48,759
Speaker 2: many extra lines.

1587
01:25:48,920 --> 01:25:49,519
Speaker 3: Blah blah.

1588
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:53,719
Speaker 2: Give yourself perfect time, better patient and smart on time.

1589
01:25:54,479 --> 01:25:57,599
Speaker 2: But they're saying several hours before check in. All that

1590
01:25:57,640 --> 01:26:00,680
Speaker 2: to be said, if you are traveling abroad something that

1591
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:03,240
Speaker 2: you know, you don't really think about it, you should

1592
01:26:03,320 --> 01:26:09,200
Speaker 2: know where you're count where you're US United States embassy

1593
01:26:09,400 --> 01:26:14,080
Speaker 2: is of those things we don't typically think about, right so,

1594
01:26:14,479 --> 01:26:17,400
Speaker 2: and there is a way for you to even notify

1595
01:26:17,520 --> 01:26:20,640
Speaker 2: the embassy of the country that you're going to with

1596
01:26:20,800 --> 01:26:23,800
Speaker 2: your information. You can just either do that online, there's

1597
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:25,759
Speaker 2: some sort of a formal way of doing it.

1598
01:26:26,160 --> 01:26:28,040
Speaker 3: Which who would have thought to do that?

1599
01:26:28,520 --> 01:26:28,800
Speaker 5: Never?

1600
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:31,960
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have now, please, I barely get to the

1601
01:26:31,960 --> 01:26:34,599
Speaker 2: flight on time, and you know, barely have my luggage.

1602
01:26:34,640 --> 01:26:36,080
Speaker 3: So it's a lot of forethought.

1603
01:26:36,160 --> 01:26:38,360
Speaker 2: But it certainly if you're leaving the country during these

1604
01:26:38,800 --> 01:26:41,840
Speaker 2: you know, just tenuous times, have a wonderful trip, not

1605
01:26:41,920 --> 01:26:45,000
Speaker 2: putting any fear out there, but something to think about

1606
01:26:45,040 --> 01:26:47,360
Speaker 2: in advance and make sure you have, you know, copies

1607
01:26:47,400 --> 01:26:48,120
Speaker 2: of your passport.

1608
01:26:48,560 --> 01:26:51,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, the things. That's another one I did likely I

1609
01:26:51,560 --> 01:26:52,400
Speaker 5: travel every sot.

1610
01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:52,479
Speaker 8: Now.

1611
01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:54,400
Speaker 7: I used to have this thing where I would try

1612
01:26:54,400 --> 01:26:56,360
Speaker 7: to travel to a different place in the world every year,

1613
01:26:56,720 --> 01:26:59,800
Speaker 7: and I never I've never really looked at the embassies.

1614
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:02,439
Speaker 7: Was something that I probably should have been doing. But

1615
01:27:02,479 --> 01:27:04,760
Speaker 7: the one thing you mentioned the passports, I do have

1616
01:27:04,800 --> 01:27:07,240
Speaker 7: a copy that I had laminated, so I always have

1617
01:27:07,280 --> 01:27:10,360
Speaker 7: like a plastic protected version of it, just as a.

1618
01:27:10,360 --> 01:27:12,160
Speaker 5: Backup in case what a good idea.

1619
01:27:14,040 --> 01:27:14,360
Speaker 3: Version.

1620
01:27:14,920 --> 01:27:17,120
Speaker 7: Well, and that was Now I'm dating myself a bit.

1621
01:27:17,160 --> 01:27:19,000
Speaker 7: But now at this point you can take a photograph

1622
01:27:19,040 --> 01:27:20,599
Speaker 7: and it goes to the cloud, So there are areas

1623
01:27:20,640 --> 01:27:22,719
Speaker 7: where you can still have it. But I still feel

1624
01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:25,439
Speaker 7: like a little protected having an extra piece of something

1625
01:27:25,439 --> 01:27:27,040
Speaker 7: in my hand to say, yeah that way.

1626
01:27:28,040 --> 01:27:30,599
Speaker 2: Just as a friendly reminder, we've covered this case before too,

1627
01:27:30,760 --> 01:27:32,760
Speaker 2: not this case, but just this theory that you know

1628
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:36,240
Speaker 2: your phone too, it can be confiscated at any touch point.

1629
01:27:36,400 --> 01:27:39,120
Speaker 2: So just something also to be aware of if you're

1630
01:27:39,200 --> 01:27:41,360
Speaker 2: not prepared to hand your phone over in some weird

1631
01:27:41,360 --> 01:27:44,479
Speaker 2: circumstance and have it gone through. Obviously there's no question

1632
01:27:44,520 --> 01:27:46,840
Speaker 2: there's nothing weird on it, but you know, if there

1633
01:27:46,880 --> 01:27:48,680
Speaker 2: could be that, I would remove it.

1634
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:50,840
Speaker 3: And you know that.

1635
01:27:50,840 --> 01:27:54,479
Speaker 2: Is something that does pretty customarily happen, and your phone

1636
01:27:54,520 --> 01:27:57,200
Speaker 2: could be gone through pretty customarily.

1637
01:27:57,280 --> 01:27:59,400
Speaker 3: So just a food for thought.

1638
01:27:59,400 --> 01:28:05,080
Speaker 2: But time safe travels have fun, right, Yeah, not to

1639
01:28:05,120 --> 01:28:08,000
Speaker 2: be a downer, get that sarcruderie plate and call it fun.

1640
01:28:08,160 --> 01:28:10,920
Speaker 3: But let us know, you know, give us the number two.

1641
01:28:11,000 --> 01:28:14,639
Speaker 3: We'll we'll keep an eye out. Shall we grab another

1642
01:28:14,680 --> 01:28:15,120
Speaker 3: talk back?

1643
01:28:15,720 --> 01:28:16,280
Speaker 5: That's do it?

1644
01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:20,960
Speaker 11: Hello, True crime tonight, goals and guys, I just want

1645
01:28:21,000 --> 01:28:22,000
Speaker 11: to just say thank you.

1646
01:28:22,160 --> 01:28:24,519
Speaker 3: I got the swag. I got a mug in the mail.

1647
01:28:24,680 --> 01:28:26,040
Speaker 3: My kids are laughing at me.

1648
01:28:26,600 --> 01:28:29,240
Speaker 11: Mom, You're ridiculously funny and silly, and I'm like, no,

1649
01:28:29,439 --> 01:28:33,120
Speaker 11: I'm on top of things, but I use it every

1650
01:28:33,200 --> 01:28:34,439
Speaker 11: day and I just love.

1651
01:28:34,240 --> 01:28:36,200
Speaker 3: It, and I just wanted to say thanks. Keep up

1652
01:28:36,200 --> 01:28:37,000
Speaker 3: the good work, guys.

1653
01:28:37,040 --> 01:28:41,640
Speaker 11: You guys are just amazingly awesome.

1654
01:28:39,760 --> 01:28:43,000
Speaker 3: Oh I'm using mine right now too.

1655
01:28:43,200 --> 01:28:46,240
Speaker 2: Actually I take that back because I've used it for

1656
01:28:46,360 --> 01:28:49,000
Speaker 2: my coffee and then I had to wash it. Now

1657
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:52,080
Speaker 2: I'm i mugless. Yeah, we sort that out tonight, but

1658
01:28:52,240 --> 01:28:53,240
Speaker 2: that is so great.

1659
01:28:53,080 --> 01:28:56,080
Speaker 7: Earlier, but yeah, the muggs, that's fantastic and we love

1660
01:28:56,600 --> 01:28:59,360
Speaker 7: that people are enjoying what we're sending out. Also on

1661
01:28:59,439 --> 01:29:01,760
Speaker 7: our social media is a social media account. We've been

1662
01:29:01,800 --> 01:29:05,080
Speaker 7: posting people wearing some of the sweatshirts and swag, and

1663
01:29:05,720 --> 01:29:06,840
Speaker 7: I don't know if you guys have you had a

1664
01:29:06,880 --> 01:29:07,680
Speaker 7: chance to peek at that.

1665
01:29:07,800 --> 01:29:09,600
Speaker 2: Of course, make sure you send that's the one with

1666
01:29:09,640 --> 01:29:12,160
Speaker 2: the mug too, So we'll do that. We'll post ours

1667
01:29:12,160 --> 01:29:14,760
Speaker 2: as well, and then yeah, let's go to another talk

1668
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:15,960
Speaker 2: pack if we can, can we can?

1669
01:29:16,000 --> 01:29:17,519
Speaker 3: We'se another in. Yeah, let's do it.

1670
01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:18,400
Speaker 4: Hey, y'all.

1671
01:29:18,479 --> 01:29:21,639
Speaker 9: I was calling about the story of the principle putting

1672
01:29:22,680 --> 01:29:28,000
Speaker 9: hypnotizing the students at his school, and there's another documentary

1673
01:29:28,040 --> 01:29:31,880
Speaker 9: about that on All Reality called True Crime Story Look

1674
01:29:31,920 --> 01:29:34,920
Speaker 9: Into My Eyes, And it was actually a little bit

1675
01:29:34,960 --> 01:29:39,200
Speaker 9: more sinister because he was hypnotizing the students and then

1676
01:29:39,240 --> 01:29:43,040
Speaker 9: he would put the student's head in his lap.

1677
01:29:45,360 --> 01:29:46,880
Speaker 3: No oh yeah.

1678
01:29:46,760 --> 01:29:48,280
Speaker 5: Where it ended? Oh I was waiting for that.

1679
01:29:50,960 --> 01:29:52,880
Speaker 4: Well, I feel like she's start on the show because

1680
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:56,040
Speaker 4: we're all going to go watch that's agreed, Like yeah.

1681
01:29:55,640 --> 01:29:59,960
Speaker 5: Wow, wow, I meaning.

1682
01:29:59,640 --> 01:30:02,880
Speaker 2: This is so disturbing. They're not people are so good.

1683
01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:04,400
Speaker 2: I got to tell you not in the bubble that

1684
01:30:04,439 --> 01:30:06,439
Speaker 2: we live in. I feel like I can say this

1685
01:30:06,520 --> 01:30:08,080
Speaker 2: with such confidence that people.

1686
01:30:07,880 --> 01:30:13,000
Speaker 3: Are good, so good, and thank.

1687
01:30:12,760 --> 01:30:14,760
Speaker 2: God we're talking about it because that guy needs to

1688
01:30:14,760 --> 01:30:17,320
Speaker 2: get kicked out of the club that is not okay.

1689
01:30:17,920 --> 01:30:21,840
Speaker 5: Also the one you mentioned earlier, that's the ketamine.

1690
01:30:21,400 --> 01:30:28,880
Speaker 2: And I detective Detective Karina. Hopefully she's listening because you know,

1691
01:30:29,320 --> 01:30:31,280
Speaker 2: I've talked to her about coming on before. But she's

1692
01:30:31,280 --> 01:30:33,599
Speaker 2: going to give us some very useful tips about how

1693
01:30:33,600 --> 01:30:36,080
Speaker 2: to keep yourself safe when you're out there find in

1694
01:30:36,160 --> 01:30:38,680
Speaker 2: love ladies and gentlemen, which we want you to do.

1695
01:30:39,200 --> 01:30:40,479
Speaker 3: We want you to do it safely.

1696
01:30:41,200 --> 01:30:42,519
Speaker 5: Yell.

1697
01:30:42,560 --> 01:30:43,800
Speaker 3: Then you're going to come back and tell us all

1698
01:30:43,800 --> 01:30:44,200
Speaker 3: about it.

1699
01:30:44,400 --> 01:30:45,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, there you go.

1700
01:30:46,200 --> 01:30:52,519
Speaker 3: Yes, Hey, Hey, this is Jremana from Michigan. I just

1701
01:30:52,720 --> 01:30:56,680
Speaker 3: was listening to last night's episode and man, there's so

1702
01:30:56,760 --> 01:30:57,400
Speaker 3: much going on.

1703
01:30:57,520 --> 01:30:58,439
Speaker 4: I don't even know where I.

1704
01:30:58,400 --> 01:31:00,240
Speaker 3: Stand on a whole bunch of things, but I do

1705
01:31:00,400 --> 01:31:05,559
Speaker 3: know that my bedtime ritual is the sweet voice of

1706
01:31:06,080 --> 01:31:09,639
Speaker 3: mister Keith Morrison. I pat on a dateline and I

1707
01:31:09,720 --> 01:31:12,160
Speaker 3: am put to bed in seconds.

1708
01:31:12,479 --> 01:31:17,040
Speaker 4: Thank you so smart.

1709
01:31:17,280 --> 01:31:23,120
Speaker 3: He is so amazing. Taha. Stephanie were the perfect couple

1710
01:31:25,520 --> 01:31:26,360
Speaker 3: Windy night.

1711
01:31:27,320 --> 01:31:30,840
Speaker 2: I think Courtney Armstrong is the new is the female version?

1712
01:31:31,000 --> 01:31:35,720
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, go ahead, Courtney and give me your best.

1713
01:31:35,560 --> 01:31:40,000
Speaker 2: On a cold wintry night, Taha and Stephanie were so happy.

1714
01:31:40,280 --> 01:31:41,320
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't think I have a.

1715
01:31:41,400 --> 01:31:48,640
Speaker 2: Period, Courtney on a cold wintry night, Taha and I

1716
01:31:48,680 --> 01:31:50,679
Speaker 2: can't do it. I can't be the Courtney Armstrong. Courtney

1717
01:31:50,800 --> 01:31:54,800
Speaker 2: crushing it. But again, we love him so much if

1718
01:31:54,880 --> 01:31:57,320
Speaker 2: I saw him, Oh, go ahead, you're doing it so good.

1719
01:31:57,920 --> 01:32:01,679
Speaker 5: On a cold winter night, Stephanie and Courtney walked along

1720
01:32:01,720 --> 01:32:04,720
Speaker 5: the beach, but who knew what was in store for them?

1721
01:32:05,400 --> 01:32:09,080
Speaker 3: Nothing trouble sooth.

1722
01:32:09,600 --> 01:32:12,559
Speaker 2: We're gonna either that or we're gonna go gallivanting on

1723
01:32:12,600 --> 01:32:16,679
Speaker 2: the beach in frolic after Lent. And you know we're

1724
01:32:16,680 --> 01:32:18,840
Speaker 2: gonna have cocktails to nauseum.

1725
01:32:18,720 --> 01:32:19,919
Speaker 3: Hotails and geesez.

1726
01:32:20,160 --> 01:32:20,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know.

1727
01:32:21,080 --> 01:32:22,240
Speaker 3: Along the ride on this one.

1728
01:32:22,280 --> 01:32:25,160
Speaker 2: I don't know why I'm I'm.

1729
01:32:24,280 --> 01:32:25,960
Speaker 3: Riding passenger on Lent. I'm into it.

1730
01:32:27,000 --> 01:32:29,240
Speaker 7: I'm sure you are having a glass of champagne for

1731
01:32:29,280 --> 01:32:32,519
Speaker 7: our two hundred episodes so you'll feel blackli Yes, but

1732
01:32:32,920 --> 01:32:37,320
Speaker 7: exactly can you guys believe two hundred episodes, four hundred hours.

1733
01:32:36,760 --> 01:32:38,960
Speaker 3: Of Oh it's been like a blink.

1734
01:32:39,600 --> 01:32:40,320
Speaker 5: Isn't it crazy?

1735
01:32:40,439 --> 01:32:41,920
Speaker 7: And I honestly, I think I said this to you

1736
01:32:41,960 --> 01:32:44,879
Speaker 7: before when someone said to me early on, Wow, two.

1737
01:32:44,720 --> 01:32:47,280
Speaker 5: Hours every night? Is there enough true crime out there?

1738
01:32:47,840 --> 01:32:50,559
Speaker 7: Now, I'm like telling you a person, Oh my god,

1739
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:51,599
Speaker 7: we don't spend enough time.

1740
01:32:51,880 --> 01:32:55,720
Speaker 3: Yeah. Literally, we were like two hours a day.

1741
01:32:55,840 --> 01:32:57,519
Speaker 2: It's a lot of content. Were like, I don't know,

1742
01:32:57,560 --> 01:32:58,439
Speaker 2: it seems really fun.

1743
01:32:58,720 --> 01:33:01,120
Speaker 5: It's such a joy, so much fun.

1744
01:33:01,479 --> 01:33:03,800
Speaker 4: It is such a and I know we say this,

1745
01:33:03,960 --> 01:33:07,639
Speaker 4: but it's so authentically is no matter what the day

1746
01:33:07,640 --> 01:33:10,519
Speaker 4: has been leading up into this point, this is just

1747
01:33:11,280 --> 01:33:13,559
Speaker 4: so true, such a you know, it's so great to

1748
01:33:13,600 --> 01:33:17,200
Speaker 4: be with you guys, and it just is. And also

1749
01:33:18,240 --> 01:33:22,439
Speaker 4: we were well, everyone can out themselves and if they

1750
01:33:22,439 --> 01:33:25,360
Speaker 4: want to, but I haven't. Was never more scared than

1751
01:33:25,360 --> 01:33:28,280
Speaker 4: when we started this, and we did, we did big things.

1752
01:33:28,280 --> 01:33:30,320
Speaker 3: We were scared. We were scared.

1753
01:33:30,680 --> 01:33:33,360
Speaker 2: And I hear he's been so kind and great, with

1754
01:33:33,439 --> 01:33:35,920
Speaker 2: tremendous with tremendous partners.

1755
01:33:35,920 --> 01:33:39,320
Speaker 3: They've been so Yeah, here's two one thousand more to come.

1756
01:33:39,439 --> 01:33:41,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, let it be so yay.

1757
01:33:41,960 --> 01:33:44,280
Speaker 2: Well, we will be here tomorrow because we have our

1758
01:33:44,400 --> 01:33:48,200
Speaker 2: favorite prosecutor with us, Sharet Farantino tomorrow, so get those

1759
01:33:48,520 --> 01:33:49,439
Speaker 2: legal calls coming.

1760
01:33:50,240 --> 01:34:01,960
Speaker 3: Stay safe out there. Good night night, Boo.