WEBVTT - Need A 4th?! Ep. 3 with Michael Murphy - Author of "Golf in the Kingdom" 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:11.160 Jeff, I called you, Jeff, Yes, absolutely, mm hm golf 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:13.520 is that they anything in golf that doesn't change? Anything 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:15.840 that changes the best in playing? Does this man a 0:00:15.840 --> 0:00:18.840 one time winner on the PGA Tour? The point Alan 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:25.760 is he didn't go Hollywood. You need a fourth before 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:27.840 we get to the episode, we should tip our caps 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:32.720 to echo our corporate sponsors here and of course Lydia 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.880 co the New World Number one is a long time 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:38.320 Echo ambassador. Michael, do do you know my affection for 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:42.960 Lydia and I share it? Just a charming person and 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:45.559 an outstanding golfer. You've done her far better than I. 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:47.640 What can you tell us about her? Well? I still 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:49.880 have her hat from the Olympics in Rio is his 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:52.000 gorgeous New Zealand hat, and asked for I could keep it. 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:55.240 She said yes. But one time I was talking to her, 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:56.920 I said, where does your power come from? She says, 0:00:57.320 --> 0:00:59.280 it's from the ground. You know. It's like a really 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:03.320 old school. And she has beautiful footwork. And I always 0:01:03.320 --> 0:01:05.480 watch her swing the club and she's like she's dancing. 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:08.360 And as I'm as I'm observing this, I always noticed 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:12.440 her her Echo Biome shoes like they just seem to 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:16.800 give her superpowers. Have you have observed anything along those lines. Well, 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:19.160 you know what the great teachers say. There's only one 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:21.280 thing that connects you to the ground in this game, 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:23.560 and that's your They don't say your echo shoes, but 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.160 in this case, it is her echo shoes. So that's 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:29.200 pretty cool. The secret to Lydia COO's success along with 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:31.640 many other talents. But she's wearing the right footwears all right. 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:35.600 Back to ned A fourth, Hello and welcome back to 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:40.319 NITA four, a podcast for Michael Bamberger, Jeff Ogilvie and 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:44.000 myself invite a surprise guest on two of the people. 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:46.759 Don't know who's on the line. I happen to do so. 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:51.040 Um A little hint to you boys. He's a He's 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:53.760 known as a golf writer, but he's only written one 0:01:53.840 --> 0:01:59.200 golf book, plus it's sequel. Um. He is a astronaut 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:02.720 of the inner cell. To use a felicitous phrase from 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:06.400 one of his one of his that he typed. Um. 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:08.520 He found in a place called the Lyn Institute on 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:12.400 the cliffs of Big Sir, which was really the first 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:17.320 gathering spot for searchers and wanderers and seekers who wanted 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:21.400 to explore the mind body connection. It's still thriving and 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:26.679 after launching the helping to launch anyway, the the counterculture 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:29.160 of the nineteen sixties and all these years later, Estlin 0:02:29.280 --> 0:02:34.520 is still a draw from all over the world. So um, 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:39.560 any guesses who are our guest might be Oh, here's 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:43.040 another important detail. We come from the same hometown, Salinas, California, 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:45.520 and it's not John Steinbeg. So there's not too many 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:48.239 type as we've come out of there. Michael was he 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:54.840 was he delivered by John Steinbeck's physician father or grandfather. 0:02:56.360 --> 0:03:02.919 You're you're getting warmer. His father delivered John Steinbeg. Let 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:06.960 me rephrase his father or grandfather? Was his father delivered 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:09.320 John Seinbeck? I think possibly the grandfather, but you would 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:12.680 know better than I. Well, well we can clear that up. Okay, 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:15.400 I think we know. Did John Updyke say of this 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:18.520 writer to be named he took the lid off the 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.480 game or something to that effect. Yes, I think it's 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:25.079 now obvious that our guest is one Michael Murphy, author 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:29.720 of Golf in the Kingdom. Mr Murphy, there you are. 0:03:31.760 --> 0:03:38.160 I remember you very well. And Michael Boberger, Oh my god, 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:43.320 it's a dangerous group here. Um, what a what a 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:49.280 pleasure the pledges Ahman, So this is the fiftieth anniversary 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.040 of Golf in the Kingdom in this slender little volume 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:56.840 that that you typed up your first ever golf book, 0:03:58.040 --> 0:04:01.320 and um, it's in dirt all all this time. Can 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.560 you believe that it's being Michael? Well, you know it's 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:06.600 a miracle, you know, right having written it when I 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:12.520 was five years old, you know it's it's lasted so long. Anyway, 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:17.560 it goes on and on and sending very strange messages. 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:20.839 My way is Golf in the Kingdom is beloved in 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:24.200 Australia as it is here in the United States. I 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:28.159 think so. I mean it's a universal book, right, I 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:32.320 mean you have to have played a lot of golf, 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.520 I think, to really fall in love with it, because 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:37.880 I think golf is such a confusing game and it 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:41.400 challenges everything in your brain, and everything you try to 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:45.320 do makes it worse. And this sort of helps to 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:47.440 get you there, you know, it helps to sort of 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:50.000 show you why you're wrong, but you can't really grasp it, 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:51.800 Like you can see it, but you can't grasp it. 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:53.680 In the book. Every time you read it. It's sort 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:56.279 of takes you where you want to go, but you 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:58.479 can't get there. It's a magic book. I think you 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:00.040 have to have played a lot of golf though, and 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.359 I think it really helps to have played in Scotland. Jeff, 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:10.359 I called you, Jeff, Yes, absolutely, well, it's you know, 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:14.880 it's had quite a readership outside the golf world, and 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:18.919 that's what's been a a big surprise for for me 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:23.840 through the years that um, people accuse me of a 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:28.839 lot of getting them to play golf, you know, and 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:32.520 you know, I said, are you are you happy about that? 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:34.800 Some of them say, oh, very happy and others say 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:39.000 not so happy. But it's uh, it kind of it's 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:44.919 struck a nerve, you know, with these kinds of and 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:49.480 well when it was published, um outside the box experiences 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:57.640 and that's I think it's that's been the it's lifeline 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:03.359 UM into this last thing leadership. So uh, it's it was. 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:06.839 It's a tremendous surprise to me. I mean, the range 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:09.440 of experiences people have wanted to share with me, and 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:13.280 certainly on golf courses, you know, people who have had 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:18.040 these um feel of sympathy with the experiences in it. 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:21.480 Michael you you're write in the book of the the 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:25.000 Peak Experience, Hogan at the height of his powers. We've 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:28.840 talked about Tiger in two thousand. Uh, Jeff Ogilby a 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:32.240 wing for another Peak Experience. Was the writing of that 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:34.919 book A peak Experience? Did you write it in a 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:36.880 sort of fever dream. I've never had a chance to 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:39.679 ask you that before. Well, it was, you know, it's 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.239 not only the first book I wrote, but the first 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:46.840 book I tried to write. And uh it uh, it 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:51.039 just it came and it was actually uh a great 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:55.279 folks at Viking Press. You know, it was back two, 0:06:56.200 --> 0:07:00.240 so it was not really edited. Um, so it came 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:04.320 out and it's um. You know, I've written another seven books, 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:08.640 but none of them came like this one. Um. You know, 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:16.800 so um um relatively easily. But I've had the idea 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:18.920 to write it ten years earlier, and then instead I 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:24.680 started as an institute and you know, survive that, and 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.880 then I sat down to write this thing. So I 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:30.840 could argue that I was kind of you know, just stating. 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:34.720 I mean, it was incubating it and it all just 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:38.480 came out the way it did, and it struck a 0:07:38.560 --> 0:07:41.320 nerve and it's had this unusual publishing history, you know 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:45.960 where Oh boy, anyway, that's a story into itself. So 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.640 I would say it was in a state um of 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:58.640 self discovery and um um, you know, since Jeff, you've 0:07:58.800 --> 0:08:03.120 joined this circle here, I will take the liberty to 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:09.000 you know, be very frank about some of these um 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:15.000 experiences that the book is attracted to me and triggered 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:22.880 from the writing of synchronicities and coincidences and memories and 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.240 this could happen. Uh, you know when you're writing, you 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:33.760 guys know it. Uh um that certain um acts just 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:39.600 channel stuff. It's just amazing. And so a lot of 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:43.880 it was remembering my remembering you know. It was kind 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:51.320 of a uh uh things that I knew, uh playing 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:53.520 when I was in you know, I didn't start playing 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:57.440 until I was fourteen, so those experiences in high school 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:03.720 and stuff came back and um. So, yes, I was 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:05.840 in a state when I wrote it. I would say, 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:08.560 I was, Jeff, that sounds a little bit like being 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:11.440 in the zone as a golfer, you know, like, can 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:14.120 you relate to some of the things he's saying You're thinking, 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:15.680 but you're not thinking. It just sort of comes back 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:19.920 to you. Well, yeah, I mean, it's absolutely I always 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:21.800 read it as an instruction book. I mean, it's such 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:23.680 a beautiful story, but I always read it as an 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:27.320 instruction book, UM, because it doesn't take if you take 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:29.160 a deep dive into golf, it doesn't take you very 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:32.480 long that you're the problem. Um. The the golf is 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:34.400 that the only thing in golf that doesn't change, the 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:37.360 only thing that changes the person playing. UM. And it 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:39.160 didn't take me very long to realize that I was 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:44.000 my problem, not the game. And I always felt that this, Yeah, 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.280 Golfing and Kingdom was an instruction book, is a little bit. 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:48.800 One of my favorite books, which is an odd book, 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:50.800 I guess for a young person to read, was gold 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:55.040 um Zen in the out of Motorcycle Maintenance. Um, with 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:57.200 this voice in his head that's going on this whole time. 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:59.800 Just there's such annoying character that he just keeps bringing 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:02.080 in you just fight through all these pages. And I 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:04.520 just hated it. And that was like playing golf. I'm 0:10:04.559 --> 0:10:06.960 just annoying myself while I'm playing golf, Like can't I 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:08.520 just get out of the way and just swing, Like 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:10.200 I know I can swing it in there, but why 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:14.360 can't I stop talking to myself and just swing. Um, so, 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:18.000 I yeah, I loved the story. It's a beautiful it's 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:24.040 I think it's sort of the best sort of exposure 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:26.320 of the mystical side of golf, which has never really 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:29.000 talked about very often, but it clearly exists, Like you say, 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:32.600 with the synchronicities of stuff. I mean you have examples. 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:34.520 I mean Tiger showed us a lot of times. I mean, 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:36.079 how did he hold those parts on the last hole 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:38.240 so many times? You know, like it's not because his 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:40.440 strokers any better or he reads the green any better. 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:42.240 I mean, he's obviously good at that. But how does 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:44.360 that parton Tory Pines go in? How does Jack's partner 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:46.640 eight six? I'm seventeen that the Master's going it never 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:51.560 break broke that way ever? Again, I mean, these things exist, um, 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:53.560 and it's clear and obvious. I think once you open 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:55.079 your eyes to it, and I think Golf in the 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:58.400 Kingdom shows you that. I think it's I think anyone 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:00.280 who really wants to take a deep dive into often 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:03.240 understand why it's such an enduring guy and everybody loves 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:05.400 it so much has to read this book a lot. 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:06.640 I think you have to read it a lot, because 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:09.440 I think every time you rate it is more that yef. 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:15.000 I appreciate all those remarks. I am very much. It's um, yeah, 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:21.800 it's uh. The game has a peculiar genius for opening 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:25.000 the world up. Of course, you get out on some 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:27.240 of those golf courses and the world has already been 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:29.960 opened up by all the love that's gone into say, 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:31.839 you know, I was as a kid, I was very 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:35.240 lucky to get to play pebble all the time, Pebble 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:39.720 Beach and for five dollars back then. And boy, you 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:42.120 go out there is never the same that golf course 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:47.080 it and so it's the world. So you go through 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:51.600 these big gardens and then this something happens to people, 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:57.600 and people want to tell me about their experiences. And 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:00.319 it's been a hell of a journey for fifty years 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:04.000 listening to just as if I'm you know, father Murphy 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:07.240 taking confession out on there on the golf course, that 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:10.160 they hear that, you know, if they know about golf 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:12.719 in the Kingdom, they want to tell me about their experiences, 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:18.960 both negative and positive. Um. And that has been a 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:25.439 rare privilege to to hear these stories for fifty years. 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:34.800 So it's it's an amazing game. I still suspect, I'm 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:40.600 all right, I believe, at least in my confident moments, 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:44.360 that I'm still learning things about the game and what 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.720 is it about it? Because you know, athletes have these 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:51.120 peak experiences that they never talked about. And I learned 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:54.959 that right away in response, you know, to them, to 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:58.360 you know, pro athletes who have been reading the book 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:03.400 and let me in adventures with them about this and that, 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:11.839 and but golf evokes I think a wider range of 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:19.440 um rich, deep, often far out experience and any other game, 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:26.920 I mean certainly some high adventures, you know, um uh 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:32.680 bring this out. But anyway, it's amazing. Golf is still 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:37.560 under reported. Yeah, that's that's what That's what I said. 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.080 And you know, Jeff's in Australia and you're north of 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:45.880 San Francisco, and um, you guys have this deep connection 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:49.160 separated by oceans. But you could you can talk lyrically 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:53.440 about it. And uh, I'm wondering, you know, Jefvis, did 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:55.280 people come up to you in the way that Michael 0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:58.320 is describing where they want to They want you to 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:00.240 explain the game to them, and they want to share 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:01.600 their stories with you. I mean, did you have that 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:07.840 in common? You're both kind of these oracle figures. Oracle 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:13.640 is a strong word. It's certainly people in airports, and 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:16.160 it's golf courses and you're in the pub sometimes and 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:18.520 it's you know, I've been working on my driver and 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:20.480 I don't know. They keep telling me I'm not an 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:22.360 inside path. But the ball doesn't do this, and the 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:24.360 ball doesn't do that, and how do I do this? 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:26.680 And how do you guys spin the ball from fifty 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:31.600 yards from the green? And um, most of it you 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:35.200 can't explain. You just have to do, you know. UM. 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:38.920 I think the biggest obstacle, which is what the book 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:44.440 sort of hints at and points out, UM, is you 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.520 just have to be totally and fully invested in what 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.160 you're doing, so much to the point where you don't 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:54.600 care about what happens next, you know, um it. And 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:56.880 that's the challenge. It's how do you get into a 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.560 golf shot so fully invested into a golf shot? I'm 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:01.200 not really here where it goes, because if you care 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:03.760 where it goes, that's where all the problems come from. Um. 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.080 And if you think of someone like Dustin Johnson, who 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:09.360 naturally is that way, he is so invested in what 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.040 he's doing, but it just doesn't seem to care where 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.480 it goes. And that's why he's so free and plays 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:18.080 so nice. You know. Um. That's really what my feeling 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.040 of the zone or the flow state or all this 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:23.560 stuff that we talk about, is that it's being so 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.000 invested in what you're doing that you forget about sort 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:29.360 of what you're doing, you know, And that's impossible. It's 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.160 a really difficult state to try to get into. It's 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:34.320 almost you have to try to not get into it, 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:36.040 but trying not to get into it's wrong as well, 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.920 you know. Um, So it's such it's this sort of 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:41.880 thing that you can see but you just can't grab. 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:44.880 And people want to know how we do it, and 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:47.080 I don't know how we do it. Um. I just 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:48.880 do it because I've been doing it for a long 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:51.560 time and it just I don't know. It just sort 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:54.360 of happens one day and I think, Michael, you said 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:56.200 you didn't start to your fourteen, and I think that's 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.120 younger than most, and I think you're sort of blessed 0:15:58.120 --> 0:15:59.960 to start that young. But I mean, I was hit 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:02.080 ping pong balls around my house when I was three 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:05.080 or four, and I think the earlier you can get 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:07.440 to it, you're very you're at a very zend state. 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:09.560 When you're three or four, you know, you're just taking 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:11.920 it all in. You don't really care about results. You're 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:15.840 just having just total immersion and joy and fun about 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:18.000 hitting a ping pong ball down the hallway in your house. 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:22.320 And I think you've sort of in you condition yourself 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.040 to that's you get way in front of the curve. 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:28.120 I think when you start so young, um, and when 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:29.680 you look at Tiger was on TV when he was 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:33.520 in nappies right or diapers sorry, um, like he was 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.000 doing it from day one, and I think you sort 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:37.800 of there's an imprint on your whatever you want to 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:42.080 call it, if it's physical or psychological or spiritual or something, 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.360 there's an imprint. The earlier you start that you can 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:49.640 be so fully immersed in what you're doing that, um, 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:51.920 it's not about the result. The joy is in the 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.240 doing it, not in where the ball goes. And I 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:56.400 think that's the biggest challenge because the more people want 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:58.080 to play well, the more they care about where the 0:16:58.080 --> 0:16:59.760 ball goes. But the more you care about where the 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:02.280 ball goes, the hotter it is to hit it where 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:04.560 you want to go. So I think that's why it's 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:06.639 such an enduring game and the book is still so 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:10.200 relevant fifty years later, because that really is the challenge 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.800 of the game is too to be so involved in 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.520 what you're doing that you forget about forget about where 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:18.240 the ball is going to go. And that's a really 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:21.320 hard thing to do. Uh. If I could just offer 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:25.879 Michael too quick observations and then and then a question. 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:30.480 One is this at this very much relates to golf 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:35.120 in the Kingdom, your astounding youthfulness and uh, at your 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:40.000 age is an inspiration to me, and I'm sure Alan 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:43.520 and Jeff as well. And the other thing, the other 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:48.440 quick observation is the astounding quality of the writing, where 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:50.760 like you feel like you're in front of the fireplace. 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:54.240 You can smell the heather, you can smell the whiskey, 0:17:54.480 --> 0:18:00.520 you can smell Michael's desperation. Um, and how if you 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:04.600 just consider just the first half of the book, it 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:08.959 is absolutely a classic example of quality writing in the 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:12.560 sense that the character starts in one place, goes through 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:17.240 a series of adventures, finishes someplace else. So I read 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.399 it as a probably just a little out of college 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:23.520 or early twenties, and it has been, as Cheff and 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.240 Allen have said, something you read again and again as 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:30.000 I read The Great ASPI and some other seminal works 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:33.760 in my life, because every time you get more out 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:35.840 of it. Anyway, that was just two quick observations I 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:38.480 wander to share, and Jeff part of me if I'm 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:41.800 not getting this correct. But I'm gonna say something Michael 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:45.399 that I believe I heard Jeff say this, And I'm wondering, 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:51.600 with all your study of peak experience and knowing Murphy 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:55.200 in the book, but particularly knowing Shiva's irons as you do, 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:57.720 what what your sense of this would be. I believe 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:01.920 Jeff once said, you know, he played an outstanding golf 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:04.159 and he won an he won of US Open, and 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:09.359 then he tried to get better and and Jeff correct 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:13.880 me if I have this wrong. Some years later, sometime later, 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:19.280 he discovered a better goal is just get better, but 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:23.160 don't try to get better, because he in the trying 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:29.800 to get better, confusion emerges. You get better, like we're 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:33.399 you know, I think we would all say by doing 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:36.879 Jeff correct me if I've got any part of that wrong, 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:39.280 which I may very well have. And Michael, I wonder 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:42.000 if that question even made any sense. Do you have 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:47.120 an insight into that conflict between trying to get better 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:50.240 at something and just getting better at something. I've got 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:54.280 an answer I would love to hear, Jeff, But you know, 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:58.720 either the first huge influence on me when I flipped, 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:01.080 you know, when I was at stand for as a student. 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:04.280 You guys know the story, and it was a blow 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:07.840 to the family. And you know, I went from you know, 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:13.000 semi respectable to completely disreputable and to become they thought 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:15.960 was a yogi or they called me a yogi. Where 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:19.760 I grew up, Selina's a tough town. Yogi is about 0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:23.159 It's the worst thing you possibly could have been in 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:31.840 ninety or fifty so um anyway, um the influence triarra Bindo, 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:37.640 the great Indian philosopher and thinker, and uh so he um. 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:41.480 One of his many maxims was don't try to have 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:48.040 the same experience twice. Okay, practice faithfully whenever you're the 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:53.520 art the pleasures of practice, but um, never try to 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:59.200 have the same experience twice. And this is a dictum 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:03.120 in the ratist mystical traditions, because you say, well, if 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:07.280 you're a Buddhist practice you're trying to give up attachments 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:10.960 there or whatever the ethical system is you're using or whatever. 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:15.680 The method and practice is important. But it's what Jeff's 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:19.840 hitting right in in the core of the problem, that 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:25.960 are we're wired in such a way we're built for 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:31.160 the new, for novelty. So you could make the argument 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:35.639 that once you try to imitate yourself as a writer, 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:39.560 I can say this, if you already try to imitate yourself, 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:42.680 you're going to become a hack writer. I mean, you 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:47.040 gotta let new stuff in and you have to, as 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:52.600 it were, risk becoming disreputable again, you know, because God 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:59.160 knows what this thing is gonna uh happen. Uh. This 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:03.040 this letting go experience, but it's letting go within what 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:06.640 you've been practicing. Um so this is this is one 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:09.120 of the tenderest, most delicate problems. I mean, and Jeff 0:22:09.200 --> 0:22:16.960 nailed it right there. And you know, um uh, you 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:20.240 know Hogan was actually good on this point, you know, 0:22:20.400 --> 0:22:23.200 and I do think it was. It was a subliminal 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:26.119 influence on me. You know, I wasn't thinking of him 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:28.960 when I wrote the book, but having watched him practice 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:32.200 so much over there Double Beach growing up, and people 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:35.919 gather on to watch him, and there was an enchantment. 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:39.560 And you'd see six or eight of the pros, the 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:45.320 touring pros, they're watching him practice. So um so when 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:47.919 they asked him about some of these shots, you know, 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:51.160 he had a tremendous repertoire of shots he could make. 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:54.360 And some of those Texas players, my god, they hit 0:22:54.440 --> 0:22:57.000 They played this low game, all these low shots, and 0:22:57.040 --> 0:23:00.720 then they could aeroplane it and it would rise and okay, 0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:04.639 here you have a rising one. That's a draw or 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:08.960 or a fade and whatever. So he pulled his shots off, 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:14.040 and you know, he was sometimes asked, um, how how 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:16.359 is it that under a pressure you can hit so 0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:21.720 many of these extraordinary shots and and he said, well, 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:26.120 I'm a looking guy. And they said lucky. You practice 0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:29.120 more than anybody else. And he said, well, the more 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:32.680 you practice, the luckier you get. But he was he 0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:36.720 was getting at this thing that I think Jeff's getting 0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:44.320 at same thing. Um uh, the new see. And of course, 0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:46.879 if you want to get metaphysical, you know, you know 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:51.440 that the whole section singing the praises of golf, that's 0:23:51.520 --> 0:23:56.399 a It was a parody of a Plato symposium. Yeah, 0:23:56.040 --> 0:23:59.399 I think we've talked about this, and I think so 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:02.800 if you walk through Plato symposium, all the characters are 0:24:02.880 --> 0:24:05.400 kind of a you know, I was having fun with 0:24:05.480 --> 0:24:11.679 that idea. And and as you know, the great philosopher 0:24:11.720 --> 0:24:15.800 Whitehead said, Western philosophy is nothing but a series of 0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:20.080 footnotes to Plato. So it's kind of embedded this ancient 0:24:20.560 --> 0:24:23.360 it's embedded in there. I mean, we could be fun 0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:26.520 talking about that. So a lot of these and one 0:24:26.520 --> 0:24:32.800 of the great truths is that we're born to eternal novelty. 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:37.840 And that's a hard truth for a lot of religious teachers. 0:24:39.000 --> 0:24:42.720 And we know, I don't know where you guys want 0:24:42.760 --> 0:24:49.000 to go with this esoteric meeting we're having here. Well, 0:24:49.440 --> 0:24:52.119 we'll follow you anywhere. We'll follow you anywhere. Well know, 0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:54.080 you said something, you said something an interesting minute ago 0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:56.480 that I want to explore. You know, this idea being 0:24:56.480 --> 0:24:59.880 disreputable because you know, you came from a family of doctor, 0:25:00.520 --> 0:25:04.560 you were expected to be a doctor. You went to Stanford, uh, 0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:06.600 you know, on a premed track, and then then you 0:25:06.600 --> 0:25:10.080 took a philosophy class that blew your mind and sent 0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:13.159 you down this this whole other path. But um, you know, 0:25:13.200 --> 0:25:16.280 I read like like when I just reread Portnoy's Complaint 0:25:16.320 --> 0:25:18.960 by Philip Roth, and I'm like, which is one of 0:25:19.040 --> 0:25:20.880 my favorite books, Like, I can't believe this guy type 0:25:20.960 --> 0:25:23.199 this out and his whole family could read it. You know, 0:25:23.240 --> 0:25:26.040 it's like so raunchy and the amount of courage it 0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:28.840 takes to put something out there to the whole world. 0:25:29.160 --> 0:25:31.399 And of course he's not it's it's an act of fiction. 0:25:31.480 --> 0:25:35.600 He's not the narrator, but people naturally wonder about the 0:25:35.600 --> 0:25:39.000 writer behind the words and the bravery of that and 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:42.640 many other books, you know, Tropica Cancer, Tropica Cancer. Henry 0:25:42.680 --> 0:25:44.960 Miller reading that book is like, oh my god, I 0:25:44.960 --> 0:25:47.920 can't leave. You just wrote that it's wild. Um, and 0:25:48.240 --> 0:25:50.720 of course you don't, you're not working blue like that, 0:25:50.840 --> 0:25:54.919 But um, how hard was it for you to to 0:25:55.000 --> 0:25:57.920 put this book out into the world and or even 0:25:58.000 --> 0:26:00.840 just to go down this path knowing, uh, the way 0:26:01.000 --> 0:26:02.720 selling us the way I do it is this dusty 0:26:02.760 --> 0:26:06.440 farming town. It's it's not a hotbed of open mindedness. 0:26:06.480 --> 0:26:09.320 And so for um, what was the struggle like for 0:26:09.359 --> 0:26:11.520 you to take on this new world, this new identity 0:26:11.640 --> 0:26:15.280 and leave behind what was expected of you. Yeah, that 0:26:15.359 --> 0:26:17.480 was not a struggle. I mean they were thrilled that 0:26:17.560 --> 0:26:20.680 I wrote a book. My brother was the designated writer 0:26:20.760 --> 0:26:23.959 in the family and he had this nationwide bestseller, you know, 0:26:24.000 --> 0:26:27.640 The Sergeant, and so I came along and so it's 0:26:27.680 --> 0:26:30.800 actually me becoming reputable. Oh my god, I published a book. 0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:35.119 And of course had you know, escalately been going for 0:26:35.200 --> 0:26:38.800 ten years at that point. But um, but there are 0:26:38.800 --> 0:26:44.200 different kinds of being reputable, reputable with whom you can 0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:48.280 be so anchored in being reputable in a small circle 0:26:48.359 --> 0:26:53.760 of your um pals or your family or your associate, 0:26:53.800 --> 0:26:59.240 you know, your colleagues, and it's hard when you're really 0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:04.119 good at something to break set. You know. This is 0:27:04.200 --> 0:27:11.080 stupendous problem in the arts, really, and uh, you know, 0:27:11.320 --> 0:27:13.480 we do. You know, I do have friends in the 0:27:13.560 --> 0:27:15.560 movie business, and you know a lot of folks in 0:27:15.640 --> 0:27:19.280 Hollywood come up to us and this is a standing 0:27:19.640 --> 0:27:24.959 um issue and it's uh like going and on about this. 0:27:25.520 --> 0:27:31.440 So reputable doesn't mean just about sex. It's about whatever, 0:27:32.520 --> 0:27:36.639 you know, whatever you're supposed to do that's engraved in you. 0:27:36.760 --> 0:27:41.120 And it's the reliabilities we need, we need, we need reliabilities, 0:27:41.960 --> 0:27:45.520 But how do you live a life that's balanced and 0:27:45.600 --> 0:27:49.520 reputable and still full of the new? And boy, when 0:27:49.520 --> 0:27:51.080 you get as old as I am, you know, and 0:27:52.520 --> 0:27:54.880 your watch your friends going down one you know, it's 0:27:54.880 --> 0:27:58.520 like in an ancient forest, one tree after another falling 0:27:58.520 --> 0:28:01.560 down around you and my wife and I you know, 0:28:01.600 --> 0:28:04.760 I'm ninety two now, so you can imagine. I mean, 0:28:04.800 --> 0:28:11.359 they they've been falling faster. And how stuck people get 0:28:12.400 --> 0:28:19.199 as they get older, you know, how stuck and the 0:28:19.320 --> 0:28:24.840 limitation of options. So, um, I think what Jeff says 0:28:24.960 --> 0:28:31.280 about shot making itself is a microcosm of our larger 0:28:33.520 --> 0:28:37.560 station in life, what you think, and it's and I 0:28:37.560 --> 0:28:41.440 think the ultimate thing is that um the game of 0:28:41.480 --> 0:28:45.120 all games. The reason the cosmos is here is the 0:28:45.200 --> 0:28:49.040 unfoldment of this greater life that awaits us. You know, 0:28:49.080 --> 0:28:52.880 if we're going to get really serious there, you know, 0:28:53.000 --> 0:28:55.480 a greater life is pressing to be born in us, 0:28:56.320 --> 0:29:01.440 really and um, you know it's one of the attractions 0:29:01.440 --> 0:29:04.920 of sport, I must say. I you know, I've always 0:29:04.920 --> 0:29:08.320 been a a nut about sports and loving it. But 0:29:09.000 --> 0:29:12.560 it's an enactment of the new. I mean, what a 0:29:12.600 --> 0:29:18.160 new great um athlete appears, or a great new team 0:29:18.280 --> 0:29:21.200 or somebody does a great thing that's never been done. 0:29:21.760 --> 0:29:24.080 The world lights up to some degree. It really does, 0:29:25.000 --> 0:29:27.720 don't you think. I mean, I mean, you guys are 0:29:27.720 --> 0:29:31.640 out there reporting on this all the time. It's um 0:29:31.880 --> 0:29:37.360 uh you know, the suspense, the trauma, that the newness. 0:29:38.520 --> 0:29:41.880 But Jeff, you you know, and I mean you've done 0:29:41.880 --> 0:29:44.960 it many times in your life. What do you you want? 0:29:45.040 --> 0:29:49.160 What well US Open, Ryder Cup with three World championships 0:29:49.280 --> 0:29:52.479 or what do you call those big ones? Yeah, they 0:29:52.560 --> 0:29:57.680 used to be called w tcs. Um. Yeah, I mean 0:29:57.720 --> 0:29:59.600 I think you hit on a couple of things that 0:29:59.640 --> 0:30:03.160 I've had along the way and felt, um, the new 0:30:03.240 --> 0:30:06.280 thing is fascinating. Jack told us he Actually I wasn't 0:30:06.320 --> 0:30:08.280 sitting there at the time, but Jack used to love 0:30:08.480 --> 0:30:12.280 walking around the locker room a memorial sort of holding 0:30:12.320 --> 0:30:16.360 court like waiting for golfers to ask him questions. Um. 0:30:16.400 --> 0:30:18.800 And he was fantastic to talk to. But there was 0:30:18.840 --> 0:30:20.920 one day I wasn't there, but he told a story 0:30:20.920 --> 0:30:22.600 and the boys and some of the someone told me. 0:30:22.600 --> 0:30:25.320 I can't remember who told me, but they asked him 0:30:25.360 --> 0:30:27.920 sort of what swing thoughts and what did you think 0:30:27.920 --> 0:30:29.440 about when you play golf, and did you ever have 0:30:29.440 --> 0:30:31.320 any favorite swing thoughts or sort of ways you went 0:30:31.360 --> 0:30:32.960 about it? And he says, you know, when I was 0:30:32.960 --> 0:30:34.880 playing my best I tried to I got to the 0:30:35.000 --> 0:30:36.880 range every morning and tried to have a new thought 0:30:37.400 --> 0:30:39.600 from yesterday, no matter how well I played yesterday, I 0:30:39.600 --> 0:30:42.760 tried to think something new today. Um. Because he thought 0:30:42.760 --> 0:30:45.520 they'd get stale very quick. And he tried to do 0:30:45.600 --> 0:30:48.600 something new every single day because he realized that exactly 0:30:48.600 --> 0:30:51.440 what you're saying, Michael, that it's all about new, um 0:30:51.480 --> 0:30:53.600 and fresh and a new experience, and it's got to 0:30:53.680 --> 0:30:56.640 keep you engaged. And if you sort of get stuck 0:30:56.640 --> 0:30:58.680 in the tram tracks, you keep going the same direction, 0:30:58.720 --> 0:31:00.080 you've got to get out of the tram tracks and 0:31:00.120 --> 0:31:02.720 sort of get something news. I thought that was fascinating 0:31:02.760 --> 0:31:06.520 that Um he always tried. I mean, it doesn't matter, 0:31:06.560 --> 0:31:09.240 it's it's almost the discipline it takes to have a 0:31:09.320 --> 0:31:12.240 great swing thought on Thursday and shoot sixty five and 0:31:12.360 --> 0:31:14.000 hit the ball perfectly and come out on Friday and 0:31:14.080 --> 0:31:17.640 do something differently. That's almost impossible to do. And it's 0:31:17.840 --> 0:31:20.000 the greatest golfer of all time, well, one of the 0:31:20.000 --> 0:31:23.120 two greatest golfers of all time actively tried to do that. 0:31:23.640 --> 0:31:25.800 He tapped into something that most of us haven't. I 0:31:25.840 --> 0:31:30.680 think is pretty interesting. Um And I think, like you say, 0:31:30.760 --> 0:31:33.560 it's the new thing it golf is a bit like music, right, 0:31:33.680 --> 0:31:38.680 It's there's no destination for music, it's just music for 0:31:38.800 --> 0:31:41.080 music's sake. And I think we all played golf with 0:31:41.120 --> 0:31:43.080 a destination in mind. And I don't think that's what 0:31:43.120 --> 0:31:44.760 it's about. I think we want to play golf for 0:31:44.800 --> 0:31:49.720 golf's sake. Um And I think, well, that's the enduring 0:31:49.720 --> 0:31:52.720 part of this book, is it. It's trying to point 0:31:52.760 --> 0:31:56.080 you to that direction, Like it's there's no destination here, Like, 0:31:56.160 --> 0:31:59.240 just get immersed and get fascinated with the game, and 0:31:59.240 --> 0:32:00.760 the more you get fast and added with the game, 0:32:01.200 --> 0:32:04.280 the more you're going to get out of it. Um. 0:32:04.320 --> 0:32:07.760 So yeah, I think it's this metaphysical philosophy stuff. I 0:32:07.760 --> 0:32:10.840 think golf is a very good If it doesn't send 0:32:10.840 --> 0:32:13.040 you that way, you're not really paying attention. I think 0:32:13.040 --> 0:32:15.520 this golf is a is a window to this world 0:32:15.760 --> 0:32:18.400 that or a doorway that if you start playing golf 0:32:18.400 --> 0:32:20.080 and you get in, you get involved, it's going to 0:32:20.200 --> 0:32:22.280 take you the direction that Michael's talking about. I just 0:32:22.320 --> 0:32:24.880 think it has to unless you're not paying attention as 0:32:24.960 --> 0:32:29.240 you read too many Golf Digest instruction articles and um 0:32:30.920 --> 0:32:33.560 um not picking on any publications, but you just you 0:32:33.600 --> 0:32:36.720 get down this rabbit hole of cutting golf into little pieces, 0:32:36.760 --> 0:32:39.520 and the nature of cutting is you can always cut 0:32:39.520 --> 0:32:43.600 it to a smaller piece. Um. I think golf has 0:32:43.640 --> 0:32:46.200 got this disease, or maybe humans have got a disease, 0:32:46.280 --> 0:32:50.920 probably of taking something beautiful and cutting it in half 0:32:50.960 --> 0:32:52.480 and wondering how it works. And then you cut it 0:32:52.480 --> 0:32:54.080 in half, you realize you can cut it a half again, 0:32:54.120 --> 0:32:55.480 and then you cut in half again. You can cut 0:32:55.520 --> 0:32:57.560 it a half again, and that never ends with golf, 0:32:57.560 --> 0:33:00.400 with anything, and golf were very susceptible to do this. 0:33:00.480 --> 0:33:04.680 And I think the secret, not the secret, the secrets 0:33:04.720 --> 0:33:06.920 that a right word. That's been a really ruined word. 0:33:06.960 --> 0:33:09.719 But um, the idea is that you're trying to put 0:33:09.760 --> 0:33:11.640 all the pieces back together, You're not trying to cut 0:33:11.680 --> 0:33:13.520 it up. You know most people are going the other 0:33:13.520 --> 0:33:16.920 way with it. Um. I think it's fascinating. And back 0:33:16.920 --> 0:33:19.120 to Hogan just a little quickly under start the Hogan thing. 0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:25.520 Um we ask everybody asks Hogan or great golfers, Well, 0:33:25.600 --> 0:33:28.560 how do you do that? And then afterwards they start 0:33:28.640 --> 0:33:32.320 thinking about it and chop it up after they've done it. 0:33:32.360 --> 0:33:34.040 But they didn't learn how to do it by chopping 0:33:34.080 --> 0:33:36.720 it up and doing that. They just loved Hogan just 0:33:36.800 --> 0:33:41.120 loved practice. He wasn't practicing to get better. He woke 0:33:41.200 --> 0:33:42.800 up in the morning and couldn't think of anything better 0:33:42.840 --> 0:33:44.600 than just to try to hit great golf shots. He 0:33:44.640 --> 0:33:47.360 was just immersed and fascinated with hitting great golf shots. 0:33:47.960 --> 0:33:50.680 And that the byproduct of that was the one golf tournaments. 0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:53.160 I don't think he tried to win golf tournaments. He 0:33:53.200 --> 0:33:54.560 woke up in the morning and all he wanted to 0:33:54.600 --> 0:33:57.120 do was hit great golf shots. And I think, um, 0:33:57.520 --> 0:34:00.120 when if you try to copy that, it doesn't work. 0:34:01.000 --> 0:34:02.760 You know, you've got to light the fire in yourself 0:34:03.720 --> 0:34:06.320 to be fascinated yourself, and you've got all you want 0:34:06.320 --> 0:34:07.920 to do in the morning is to get up and 0:34:07.920 --> 0:34:11.840 at great golf shots or right great? Right? Well, I 0:34:11.840 --> 0:34:15.360 mean I assume writing the I feel like if you 0:34:15.480 --> 0:34:18.040 just love writing and just start writing and keep writing, 0:34:18.360 --> 0:34:19.680 something good is going to come out of it. The 0:34:19.680 --> 0:34:22.960 more you just get into writing, well, that's the good result. 0:34:23.000 --> 0:34:24.799 If you set out with a destination in mind, you're 0:34:24.800 --> 0:34:27.319 probably gonna not right right as well, because you're gonna 0:34:27.320 --> 0:34:29.520 you're putting yourself in tram tracks and you're you're giving 0:34:29.520 --> 0:34:34.239 yourself a destination. Um. And the great things in life 0:34:34.239 --> 0:34:37.280 don't have a destination. They just they exist for themselves. 0:34:37.320 --> 0:34:39.320 You just you play golf because it's fun to play. 0:34:39.760 --> 0:34:44.959 You don't play golf to get anywhere. Um. And human 0:34:45.040 --> 0:34:46.959 nature as we're always trying to get somewhere with something. 0:34:47.000 --> 0:34:48.480 But how do you know where you're trying to get. 0:34:48.520 --> 0:34:50.080 You don't know where you're trying to get, you know, 0:34:50.760 --> 0:34:53.399 so how do you get somewhere? You can't decide where 0:34:53.440 --> 0:34:55.480 to go with your golf because alway they think is 0:34:56.800 --> 0:34:58.759 you don't know where it's going to go. So just 0:34:58.920 --> 0:35:03.480 have fun doing it, okay. T Jeff's wint it's a 0:35:03.600 --> 0:35:07.600 really odd game, as almost all games are, because there 0:35:07.760 --> 0:35:11.600 is no product in the end. There's a trophy, maybe 0:35:11.600 --> 0:35:14.160 your name's on it, maybe it's not, but there's no 0:35:14.239 --> 0:35:18.000 product in the end except for some kind of vague 0:35:18.000 --> 0:35:21.600 internal feeling, which, of course, Michael, you captured you know 0:35:21.880 --> 0:35:25.799 so extremely well, and in your book. Yeah, it's even 0:35:25.800 --> 0:35:28.520 more than the feeling itself. It's trying. It's the quest 0:35:28.560 --> 0:35:31.319 to find that feeling, right like, because the feeling can 0:35:31.360 --> 0:35:34.799 be fleeting, but to me, like when I when I'm 0:35:34.800 --> 0:35:39.920 playing my best, uh, I'm just like there's a sensation 0:35:39.960 --> 0:35:42.719 of trying to get it. It's just like total effortlessness 0:35:42.719 --> 0:35:45.920 when I swing the club and uh, and then you have, 0:35:46.080 --> 0:35:48.000 you know, five minute walk you get to try it again, 0:35:48.120 --> 0:35:50.560 and there's those five minutes like the hardest. You're just like, Okay, 0:35:50.560 --> 0:35:53.080 don't get too excited, don't think about well, okay, if 0:35:53.080 --> 0:35:54.680 I if I birdied this hole and I finished with 0:35:54.680 --> 0:35:56.719 two pars, I can you shoot my best score ever? Like, 0:35:57.239 --> 0:35:59.759 you know, it's like the walk to me is one 0:35:59.800 --> 0:36:02.319 of the hardest parts of golf, with to not not 0:36:02.360 --> 0:36:05.160 getting your own way and not get not start chasing 0:36:05.160 --> 0:36:07.759 a different feeling. Like it's uh, I think I think 0:36:07.760 --> 0:36:10.480 Sis might have had something to say about this. You know, 0:36:10.560 --> 0:36:13.480 let the nothingness into your shots, right, Like that's that's 0:36:13.560 --> 0:36:16.200 one of the most oft repeated lines from Golf in 0:36:16.280 --> 0:36:19.920 the Kingdom. But the nothingness is the key. It's uh, 0:36:19.960 --> 0:36:22.600 that's that's like kind of where that's what I'm always 0:36:22.640 --> 0:36:27.440 chasing the different words in different languages around what you know, 0:36:27.760 --> 0:36:31.239 nothing is about. I mean, there's you know, Buddhism is 0:36:31.760 --> 0:36:34.480 based in that no notion. There are a lot of 0:36:34.520 --> 0:36:41.080 beautiful Sanskrit words for this, but you know words, you know, 0:36:41.400 --> 0:36:46.160 you could get approximations to experience with words and words 0:36:46.200 --> 0:36:53.360 themselves then can produce great experiences. But um uh. Finally, 0:36:53.480 --> 0:36:59.840 that word um you can get you close, but by itself, 0:36:59.840 --> 0:37:02.120 it can't get you there. I mean you have to 0:37:02.160 --> 0:37:06.560 experience it. Ah, that's what he meant. You know, he 0:37:06.640 --> 0:37:10.960 might have called it something else. You know some Sanskrit 0:37:10.960 --> 0:37:17.600 word shunyums that's the word sunyumnata, and it's trying, you know, 0:37:17.640 --> 0:37:25.880 your emptiness, um, nothingness, the fertile void. You know, different 0:37:26.000 --> 0:37:32.799 translators will translate that word. But people have been testifying 0:37:32.880 --> 0:37:37.640 to this and to this, these further dimensions of human experience, 0:37:37.680 --> 0:37:41.520 you know, for thousands of years um, and as it 0:37:41.600 --> 0:37:43.880 comes into the culture. It's just amazing to me that 0:37:45.040 --> 0:37:50.760 writing this book, I UM the golf is a doorway 0:37:50.920 --> 0:37:54.080 for lots of people into this the first time they've 0:37:54.120 --> 0:37:58.160 ever had a deep Buddhist I mean, people will sit 0:37:58.239 --> 0:38:02.440 in um retreats for years and not have some of 0:38:02.480 --> 0:38:06.680 the experiences they have on golf courses. It's it's a 0:38:06.719 --> 0:38:11.640 great irony, um. But there it is, this, these possibilities 0:38:11.640 --> 0:38:16.200 waiting for us, and golf has a peculiar genius for 0:38:16.400 --> 0:38:19.680 bringing people towards it. It's it's just a fact. You know. 0:38:20.280 --> 0:38:25.080 It's like, uh, you know, fifty years I've been you 0:38:25.160 --> 0:38:28.120 know this. Uh, the gift of writing the book has 0:38:28.120 --> 0:38:30.920 given me just to watch this window oh keep opening 0:38:32.560 --> 0:38:39.120 from that game. It's uh uh, it's it's a fact. Um. 0:38:40.280 --> 0:38:43.160 There it sits and we argue about it from so 0:38:43.200 --> 0:38:46.840 many different angles, you know, and you know, are the 0:38:46.880 --> 0:38:51.360 Southeast nice people are not nice people? You know are whatever. 0:38:51.680 --> 0:38:54.319 There's always something brand new to argue about or on 0:38:54.360 --> 0:39:00.080 the game, the politics that um, oh god, everything, the 0:39:00.120 --> 0:39:03.520 ecology of it, and uh, and yet people come back 0:39:03.600 --> 0:39:12.319 to this um incredible uh something that UM delivers. These 0:39:12.360 --> 0:39:17.120 experiences are people experience, you know, having started this and 0:39:17.440 --> 0:39:20.600 it's been going for sixty years now, and people come 0:39:20.640 --> 0:39:24.000 from all over the world in search of these uh, 0:39:24.400 --> 0:39:32.960 larger possibilities in human life. And it's uh, you know, 0:39:33.040 --> 0:39:39.319 and some of my um somewhat disreputable moments, I've proclaimed 0:39:39.320 --> 0:39:44.840 that golf's delivering more experience, more stories than Buddhist practice 0:39:44.920 --> 0:39:48.840 in America, And of course it's upset some of my friends. 0:39:48.840 --> 0:39:56.600 But uh, then they start thinking about it, you know. Um, 0:39:56.600 --> 0:40:00.799 but that anyway, Michael, you've told me that, Um, there 0:40:00.880 --> 0:40:02.560 was a lot of that. You made such a study 0:40:02.600 --> 0:40:05.600 of Hogan, and you sat near Mrs Hogan. I think 0:40:05.640 --> 0:40:09.080 at Olympic and the influence Hogan had on you, and 0:40:09.120 --> 0:40:12.400 that there was a lot of Hogan and Siva's. I 0:40:12.520 --> 0:40:14.280 never got a chance, of course, to be around Hogan, 0:40:14.719 --> 0:40:18.239 but I think of Sheba's your character, Sheva's irons is 0:40:18.280 --> 0:40:23.399 having so much warmth and humanity in connection with other 0:40:23.400 --> 0:40:26.160 people that I don't necessarily so associate with Hogan. I 0:40:26.200 --> 0:40:28.680 don't know if that's correct or not, but I'm wondering 0:40:30.320 --> 0:40:33.200 what else came to you that let you fill in 0:40:33.360 --> 0:40:41.719 Sheba's in such a rich way. You're my psychoanalyst. Yes, 0:40:42.040 --> 0:40:47.320 a matter of speaking, I mean, oh boy, Um, well, 0:40:47.360 --> 0:40:52.160 I mean there's that, Michael, which of which I'm conscious, 0:40:52.840 --> 0:40:57.000 and that which is of which I'm unconscious. Uh. You know, 0:40:57.320 --> 0:41:01.680 anybody who writes um a book that is in the 0:41:01.920 --> 0:41:06.000 is imaginative and and you know, I say, people say, well, 0:41:06.080 --> 0:41:08.799 is it fiction or or nonfiction? I say, well, it's 0:41:09.239 --> 0:41:15.160 semi it's it's semi fiction because the experiences my kind 0:41:15.200 --> 0:41:20.279 of discipline was, and I do differentiate it from I 0:41:20.360 --> 0:41:25.319 call it mystical realism because people want explanations as as 0:41:25.360 --> 0:41:30.200 distinguished from magical realism. You know, in the great Latin 0:41:30.239 --> 0:41:33.760 novelists with gold fish from the sky and redwood trees 0:41:33.800 --> 0:41:35.760 that put their arms around you and all. There's nothing 0:41:35.840 --> 0:41:38.839 like that, exactly in golf in the Kingdom. These are 0:41:38.840 --> 0:41:42.360 experiences that people have. And you know, I wrote a sequel, 0:41:42.360 --> 0:41:44.720 it's the sequel, you know, the Kingdom of suba Science. 0:41:45.040 --> 0:41:50.600 All those experiences actually happen to people and so um 0:41:52.160 --> 0:41:57.399 uh so too, um so, all of that came into 0:41:57.480 --> 0:42:03.720 play writing the book. So um so, I channeled the character, 0:42:04.120 --> 0:42:10.440 you know, but it did. He did. He materialized in 0:42:10.560 --> 0:42:13.880 front of me and pretty soon this could happen. You 0:42:13.920 --> 0:42:16.600 asked me about the state I was in. Pretty soon, 0:42:16.840 --> 0:42:22.200 um I was hearing the stuff I wrote down, you know, 0:42:23.200 --> 0:42:25.920 I was hearing it. And people think, well, yeah, you 0:42:25.960 --> 0:42:29.239 know this is on the edge of schizophrenia. Uh well, 0:42:29.320 --> 0:42:32.200 accept writers are flirting with the same sorts of things 0:42:32.200 --> 0:42:36.600 as certain psychotics. Uh do you know the you know, 0:42:36.640 --> 0:42:40.600 the m m PI in the Minnesota Multiphasing Inventory. I 0:42:40.600 --> 0:42:42.960 don't want to get too fancy here, but it's it's 0:42:43.520 --> 0:42:47.400 been given to more people than any other single test, millions. 0:42:48.160 --> 0:42:54.279 And there's something called the schizophrenia scale. And when you know, 0:42:54.320 --> 0:42:57.400 when it's given to a lot of writers, they scored 0:42:57.600 --> 0:43:03.520 very high on the schizophrenia scale. Um, because it's um, 0:43:03.719 --> 0:43:06.480 but it's also has to be accompanied by some of 0:43:06.520 --> 0:43:10.560 the stability scales. But it's opening that the doors of 0:43:10.600 --> 0:43:15.360 the mind and this stuff comes. Uh. So that was 0:43:16.320 --> 0:43:18.120 you know, it was the first book I tried to 0:43:18.160 --> 0:43:22.120 write let alone, right, Um, so the you know, it's 0:43:22.160 --> 0:43:26.040 kind of quasi channeling. And you could say that in 0:43:26.360 --> 0:43:29.560 great art and in great sports performance, and I think 0:43:29.600 --> 0:43:33.440 it's again I would argue with Jeff, this will getting 0:43:33.480 --> 0:43:36.960 that this thing if you can open the not only 0:43:37.000 --> 0:43:40.720 the doors of perception, but open up all the hidden 0:43:40.760 --> 0:43:45.759 windows of your mind body complex. I mean, would you 0:43:45.840 --> 0:43:51.040 think about what goes into hitting a let's say a shot. 0:43:51.600 --> 0:43:54.759 Let's I'm thinking I was right next to Hogan when 0:43:54.760 --> 0:43:57.120 he hit a shot at that opening loss to fleck. 0:43:58.120 --> 0:44:00.719 And it was in grass pretty I mean it was 0:44:01.200 --> 0:44:04.359 in the rough, and but it was one of these 0:44:04.400 --> 0:44:07.120 low shots of these some of these Texas players you know, 0:44:07.239 --> 0:44:09.120 tell me Bold and Jimmy to marry. They did these 0:44:09.160 --> 0:44:12.919 little shots. It would rise, but this one, honest to God, 0:44:13.360 --> 0:44:17.799 to the left of the pin, rising and fading out 0:44:17.840 --> 0:44:22.880 of high grass. All right. How many muscle fibers in 0:44:23.040 --> 0:44:26.400 his body and how many nerves and his brain and 0:44:26.440 --> 0:44:29.919 cerebellum and everywhere else were involved in that? Nobody could 0:44:29.960 --> 0:44:33.799 cut pozzib We count them and he couldn't. I would 0:44:33.840 --> 0:44:38.479 argualy channel that shot. He channeled it. Now. I think 0:44:38.680 --> 0:44:42.320 he probably had an image of that's what he wanted 0:44:42.360 --> 0:44:45.080 to do. He wanted to play a low rising and 0:44:45.200 --> 0:44:51.480 fade into that um. And uh. It was interesting because 0:44:52.400 --> 0:44:56.240 before he hit the shot, I was standing near him 0:44:56.320 --> 0:45:00.799 and he yelled at someone, how Sam. He kind of 0:45:00.840 --> 0:45:05.560 measured himself against Sam. Sneed a lot, and and the 0:45:05.560 --> 0:45:08.520 guy yelled back, oh, he's under so many under or whatever, 0:45:08.560 --> 0:45:11.440 and he shook his head. He took that into consideration. 0:45:11.800 --> 0:45:15.319 He may have been computing how much he was going 0:45:15.360 --> 0:45:18.200 to go for, you know, a lower or higher score. 0:45:18.440 --> 0:45:22.360 I don't know, but anyway, there was the settled sense 0:45:23.160 --> 0:45:28.640 centered down computing that and then pulling the shot off. Well, 0:45:28.880 --> 0:45:32.960 you have to believe me, and that is like me 0:45:33.040 --> 0:45:39.480 writing a paragraph, uh and not anticipating it. I didn't 0:45:39.480 --> 0:45:42.240 see it coming. You see what I mean? You guys, 0:45:42.280 --> 0:45:45.560 well you know you're writing right as writers. I mean, 0:45:45.960 --> 0:45:49.200 you don't know this sentence exactly is coming and don't 0:45:49.239 --> 0:45:54.520 you but it appears. And that is this marriage that 0:45:54.600 --> 0:46:00.600 we all have with our unconscious, our subliminal mind. People say, well, 0:46:00.600 --> 0:46:02.680 what do you how do you see the unconscious? Well, 0:46:02.680 --> 0:46:07.239 I say, well, think one image in Star Wars the 0:46:07.280 --> 0:46:11.000 movie are two D two. You know, the little the 0:46:11.120 --> 0:46:13.759 robot goes wrong. Okay, we each have our R two 0:46:13.880 --> 0:46:17.680 D two. It's our unconscious. It's always working. So you 0:46:17.680 --> 0:46:19.839 have to know how to listen are too D two 0:46:20.480 --> 0:46:25.000 But so one. For for a writer, it comes as 0:46:25.040 --> 0:46:29.919 a sentence or an image or even a paragraph. When 0:46:29.920 --> 0:46:33.200 you get one of these long runs, it's um, I 0:46:33.280 --> 0:46:36.680 actually do think um. I owe some of it to 0:46:36.760 --> 0:46:41.040 my Irish ancestry, because you know, the father's side of 0:46:41.080 --> 0:46:43.399 the family. All this, I mean, there was a lot 0:46:43.440 --> 0:46:46.640 of competition for who is going to blow the longest 0:46:46.719 --> 0:46:49.239 riff at dinner. I mean there was, I mean, it 0:46:49.360 --> 0:46:54.400 was it was you know. Uh. You know, these cultural 0:46:54.440 --> 0:46:58.400 steriotypes often have some truth in them, but you rejoice, 0:46:58.600 --> 0:47:01.000 you know, ulysses or something. I mean some of those 0:47:01.040 --> 0:47:06.239 are paragraphs that he channeled. Okay, and the same with 0:47:06.960 --> 0:47:10.920 certain rounds of golf. I'll tell you. The only person 0:47:11.280 --> 0:47:13.560 who ever played a great game in his life that 0:47:13.600 --> 0:47:18.360 I played against once was Kenney Ventury and he was fifteen. 0:47:18.440 --> 0:47:24.560 I was sixteen. And um he uh became famous in 0:47:24.560 --> 0:47:27.040 our part of the world up here, you know, um 0:47:27.239 --> 0:47:30.839 in northern California when he was UM. I would say, 0:47:31.120 --> 0:47:34.919 from the time he was about seventeen to twenty that 0:47:35.719 --> 0:47:40.439 he would uh maybe get five or six holes where 0:47:40.440 --> 0:47:43.719 the ball was stiff to the pin, I mean within feet, 0:47:43.760 --> 0:47:49.080 you know. And it was um. And then he went 0:47:49.080 --> 0:47:52.200 out on the tour there and he did well. But 0:47:53.520 --> 0:47:57.080 he I remember that as a kid having known him, 0:47:57.120 --> 0:48:00.480 and UM, I can't say I played again stim. I 0:48:00.480 --> 0:48:03.040 mean we were matched with each other. It was a 0:48:03.120 --> 0:48:08.520 pathetic mismatch. But anyway, um uh. So the point I 0:48:08.600 --> 0:48:10.759 want to make is this are too deep to that 0:48:10.800 --> 0:48:16.880 we that is in us uh is the subliminal mind, 0:48:17.760 --> 0:48:22.040 our secret magic. Uh. It can be there for a 0:48:22.040 --> 0:48:25.080 few seconds, or a few minutes, or a few hours 0:48:25.800 --> 0:48:29.040 or over a period of time. It's uh, you know 0:48:29.120 --> 0:48:32.160 this comes up a lot, don int es um people 0:48:32.200 --> 0:48:34.360 coming from the you know, from all over the world 0:48:34.400 --> 0:48:40.280 to talk about this stuff. It's um. Uh, it's hugely 0:48:40.280 --> 0:48:44.840 and once again, golf is an incredible venue for people 0:48:44.920 --> 0:48:49.760 to experience this stuff. It's amazing. I mean, well, Jeff, 0:48:49.800 --> 0:48:52.960 obviously in your life, I mean you've done it. I mean, 0:48:53.000 --> 0:48:57.000 to win those big tournaments, Jesus. And the competition you 0:48:57.040 --> 0:49:00.600 guys are against. You know, in Hogan's day, do ten 0:49:00.680 --> 0:49:03.799 or fifteen guys out there who could really play? But 0:49:03.920 --> 0:49:06.600 now you guys watched about a couple of d well, 0:49:06.640 --> 0:49:10.439 I mean everybody out there now everyone hits the ball 0:49:10.880 --> 0:49:13.640 much further than any anybody thought of hitting it when 0:49:13.640 --> 0:49:17.319 I was younger, when Hogan was playing. I mean, you 0:49:17.400 --> 0:49:25.080 hear it further. Um. But all that competition, and it's 0:49:25.160 --> 0:49:34.400 a a cohort of magic has emerged. And say, although 0:49:34.480 --> 0:49:37.759 you know, it's interesting that certain players, I mean a 0:49:37.840 --> 0:49:40.239 lot of people turn on you know, we don't need 0:49:40.280 --> 0:49:45.719 to repeat this to just watch Tiger you know and 0:49:45.719 --> 0:49:52.880 and so and um, you could argue that in the 0:49:52.920 --> 0:49:55.160 old days, I mean when Hogan was playing, and some 0:49:55.239 --> 0:49:58.400 of those guys were such characters, you know, so people 0:49:58.480 --> 0:50:01.000 was kind of like watching the Harlem Globe Trotters. You 0:50:01.040 --> 0:50:03.360 go to the Crosby clam Bay can see some of 0:50:03.400 --> 0:50:08.719 these guys play. It was colorful characters. Some I don't 0:50:08.719 --> 0:50:10.400 know how you feel about this job, but there's a 0:50:10.400 --> 0:50:16.799 lot of um, more conformity on the tour. I do 0:50:16.880 --> 0:50:19.440 have a question for you, Michael. I mean that you're 0:50:19.480 --> 0:50:22.960 not playing a ton of golf anymore, presumably, Um, do 0:50:23.000 --> 0:50:25.759 you still do you dream about golf? Do you can 0:50:25.800 --> 0:50:28.799 you still summon in your body the sensation of hitting 0:50:28.840 --> 0:50:31.480 golf shots? Like how much does the game live within 0:50:31.560 --> 0:50:37.560 you still? You know, great athletes do leave legacies in 0:50:37.640 --> 0:50:40.640 the minds of people who were near them when they 0:50:40.680 --> 0:50:44.239 were playing or even on television. I mean, we all 0:50:44.280 --> 0:50:48.920 know there are certain shots that are are get me 0:50:50.040 --> 0:50:52.600 take that shot. When Hogan hit that shot, that's in me, 0:50:52.680 --> 0:50:57.800 I can feel it. It was so thrilling. It's like, um, 0:50:57.840 --> 0:51:03.640 you know, remembering the most delicious experiences in your life. 0:51:05.160 --> 0:51:08.120 You know, it's it's not to be too crass, but 0:51:08.200 --> 0:51:15.480 you can remember some erotic highlights. There are certain things 0:51:15.560 --> 0:51:18.759 you will never forget. And it's not just that you 0:51:18.840 --> 0:51:22.440 have a mental image. You feel it, particularly if you 0:51:22.520 --> 0:51:26.360 ever played the game. You know, um, you know what 0:51:26.400 --> 0:51:29.359 I mean. And it's almost as good as the real thing. 0:51:30.239 --> 0:51:33.080 The remembering might be better. I was watching Tiger and 0:51:33.080 --> 0:51:36.200 I actually was experiencing on some of those drives you 0:51:36.239 --> 0:51:44.080 and I was experiencing lust. I'm sure that's true. So 0:51:45.520 --> 0:51:48.719 there's a lineage, I mean, I'm sorry, a legacy that 0:51:49.640 --> 0:51:54.360 great athletes leave out there in the memories of others 0:51:54.680 --> 0:51:58.799 really well. And and also great writers and great storytellers. 0:51:58.840 --> 0:52:02.240 I mean, Jeff's up and down on the seven second 0:52:02.239 --> 0:52:05.600 hole at Wingfoot will live on forever. I mean, just 0:52:05.760 --> 0:52:08.040 as golf in the Kingdom will, just as to the 0:52:08.120 --> 0:52:11.160 links Land will. I mean, it's uh, it's kind of 0:52:11.160 --> 0:52:13.600 neat to bring together people on this, on this this 0:52:13.640 --> 0:52:16.200 one conversation who have touched a lot of folks in 0:52:16.239 --> 0:52:20.239 different ways, and uh, you know, it's it's fun for me. 0:52:20.320 --> 0:52:23.160 I I feel like I'm just having an out of 0:52:23.160 --> 0:52:26.799 body experience watching you guys talk about these things. But 0:52:27.560 --> 0:52:30.359 it's it's one of the great things about the nineteenth Hole. 0:52:31.000 --> 0:52:33.680 You know, you play over in Scotland and my god, 0:52:33.719 --> 0:52:37.239 you're rubbed raw in the wind and it's okay. But 0:52:37.280 --> 0:52:39.200 if you go into the clubhouse and you have a 0:52:39.280 --> 0:52:43.000 single maldis a single and you don't get halfway up 0:52:43.040 --> 0:52:45.040 to heaven, You're not going to get there when you die. 0:52:45.640 --> 0:52:47.879 It's uh, you know what I mean. I mean it's 0:52:47.920 --> 0:52:53.759 because it opens up um uh, well, it just inhibits 0:52:53.760 --> 0:52:57.920 you to some extent and in that just an ambition, 0:52:58.920 --> 0:53:03.680 amazing things are rise and um so that in that 0:53:03.800 --> 0:53:09.120 sense we're so vulnerable and contagious to one another. And 0:53:09.160 --> 0:53:14.000 when you have a sports arena with millions of people watching, 0:53:15.160 --> 0:53:19.760 you know, it's it's at times I just think underrated 0:53:20.480 --> 0:53:25.600 how an athlete can do something. It's a thrilled at 0:53:25.680 --> 0:53:29.680 last and reverberates forever as long as that anybody who 0:53:29.719 --> 0:53:37.000 experienced it, there's alive the legacy of our greatness to 0:53:37.160 --> 0:53:42.240 one another. And um, let's say somebody who's been down 0:53:42.280 --> 0:53:46.880 and out and has uh not done a lot of 0:53:46.920 --> 0:53:52.879 good in life and does one incredible, great and good 0:53:52.920 --> 0:53:57.279 thing and it reverberates where it reverberates, so we can 0:53:57.360 --> 0:54:03.680 all add to this in incredibly cruel but grace laden 0:54:03.800 --> 0:54:08.319 world we live in. I mean, you know, um and 0:54:08.520 --> 0:54:14.520 uh so anyway, it's um. People say to me, Um, 0:54:14.560 --> 0:54:17.880 I love a challenge like this. M Well, of course, 0:54:19.000 --> 0:54:20.960 at the end of the day, Mike, it's a silly game. 0:54:22.280 --> 0:54:25.560 I said, well, what I mean, a little ball into 0:54:25.600 --> 0:54:28.720 this hole and you walk around like this and everything else. 0:54:29.320 --> 0:54:32.880 So I know when they're setting me up like that, 0:54:32.880 --> 0:54:37.680 that I'm gonna win, and because I could come back 0:54:38.080 --> 0:54:41.759 with all of the good things that happened, you know 0:54:41.960 --> 0:54:49.799 in this game. I'm serious and it's um. It's a 0:54:49.920 --> 0:54:59.479 largely enchanted game that uh well, it does what it does, 0:54:59.600 --> 0:55:08.279 and it's these um and sport generally. Um uh it's 0:55:09.440 --> 0:55:13.200 oh boy, I'm inhibiting myself right now because you know, 0:55:13.280 --> 0:55:17.040 my wife and I are very involved in Russian American 0:55:17.080 --> 0:55:20.520 relations and we're living in this now as hell that's 0:55:20.600 --> 0:55:25.480 perpetrated by Putin. I don't I don't want to go 0:55:25.560 --> 0:55:30.880 down that road with you guys, but uh so, I 0:55:30.960 --> 0:55:35.880 often say it's too bad in Russia. They forgive me 0:55:35.960 --> 0:55:38.600 for this, but that they don't play golf. You know. 0:55:39.040 --> 0:55:41.959 It's uh, I get some of these guys out there 0:55:42.040 --> 0:55:45.680 and out of these warhols that they live in. I mean, 0:55:45.719 --> 0:55:49.960 it's been a a nation that has suffered enormously and 0:55:50.000 --> 0:55:56.200 it's so huge, and it's produced this readiness to fight 0:55:56.360 --> 0:56:04.680 and this monsters. I'm sorry to intervene with, but that, Um, 0:56:04.840 --> 0:56:08.960 we've got to be thankful for these activities that we 0:56:09.040 --> 0:56:13.480 do have that are life giving and healthy and God 0:56:13.520 --> 0:56:19.360 bless golf give rise to this transcendence, these transcendent moments, 0:56:20.160 --> 0:56:26.040 but we go beyond ourselves, thank God. Michael and Jeff 0:56:26.080 --> 0:56:29.239 give me final thoughts for our guest on Uti for 0:56:29.360 --> 0:56:35.759 with Michael Murphy here. Wow, this has just been a pleasure. Um, 0:56:35.800 --> 0:56:38.239 I've enjoyed listening the whole time. This is fascinating. We 0:56:38.239 --> 0:56:40.040 could do this all day. I think it's important. I 0:56:40.040 --> 0:56:44.560 think of more. I mean, you wrote this book fifty 0:56:44.640 --> 0:56:47.320 years ago. It should have been paid. I mean, everybody 0:56:47.320 --> 0:56:48.960 loves it. But everybody loves it and then they go 0:56:49.000 --> 0:56:52.160 off and don't really live it, you know, they get 0:56:52.239 --> 0:56:56.360 distracted by everything else. And I think it's more relevant 0:56:56.440 --> 0:56:58.120 now because, as I said, we're cutting it up into 0:56:58.160 --> 0:57:01.400 so many small pieces and we'd of thing the point, Um, 0:57:02.040 --> 0:57:04.040 all the holiday golf is just there. If a golf 0:57:04.080 --> 0:57:05.880 psych and that's how we don't have to fought wols, 0:57:05.920 --> 0:57:07.759 because we fought the wool with ourself every time we 0:57:07.840 --> 0:57:10.600 play golf, and we learned about ourselves every time. And 0:57:10.640 --> 0:57:13.200 I think, uh, it's just been fascinating. I've enjoyed the 0:57:13.239 --> 0:57:16.120 whole thing. We can do this trial. Well, thank you 0:57:16.160 --> 0:57:20.600 Allen for arranging this, and uh, Michael, I hope I 0:57:20.640 --> 0:57:22.760 have many more opportunities to say this to you, but 0:57:22.840 --> 0:57:25.040 I just want to say you're a hero to me, 0:57:25.120 --> 0:57:29.320 and I'm incredibly grateful that you are the person you 0:57:29.360 --> 0:57:31.320 are and that you've written down the words that you have. 0:57:31.920 --> 0:57:34.920 You probably know I believe I have this right that 0:57:35.080 --> 0:57:41.240 Gorbachov gave Reagan a driver made out of a nuclear missile, 0:57:41.360 --> 0:57:43.800 but maybe someone gave it to Clinton. That the point 0:57:44.000 --> 0:57:48.320 really is they should have just kept it. Uh. Uh. 0:57:48.360 --> 0:57:51.680 If you ever cared to write a sort of sequel 0:57:51.720 --> 0:57:56.479 about a mystical conversation between Hogan and Tiger, I think 0:57:56.600 --> 0:58:01.160 people would eat it up. Uh. But thank you for 0:58:01.280 --> 0:58:04.720 the example of of your life and and everything that 0:58:04.760 --> 0:58:10.240 you've given us. Michael. Thank you God, that's generous words, 0:58:10.960 --> 0:58:15.280 and thank you for all your great stuff about life 0:58:15.280 --> 0:58:21.240 in this good green world. And anyway, and and Jeff, 0:58:21.280 --> 0:58:25.919 thanks for those generous remarks. I I very very much 0:58:25.960 --> 0:58:31.680 appreciate them a lot. Really well, I'm just gonna build 0:58:31.680 --> 0:58:34.520 on what these other guys said. It's absolute pleasure talking 0:58:34.560 --> 0:58:38.320 to you as always. Michael, Uh, congratulations fifty the anniversary 0:58:38.360 --> 0:58:42.200 of golf in the Kingdom. What a run uh years old. 0:58:42.200 --> 0:58:44.720 I think anyone who listens this podcast will know that 0:58:45.480 --> 0:58:50.160 you haven't lost anything off your fastball. It's it's heroic 0:58:51.520 --> 0:58:54.840 the life you continues to lead. So um, this has 0:58:54.880 --> 0:58:57.680 been this has been a tremendous pleasure and honor. Thank 0:58:57.720 --> 0:59:00.439 you for for rounding out our foursome here. We're gonna 0:59:00.440 --> 0:59:02.560 we're gonna sign off on from this podcast, but I 0:59:02.640 --> 0:59:05.400 know the conversation will continue for quite a long time 0:59:05.440 --> 0:59:08.400 amongst all of us in different ways. So thanks everybody 0:59:08.400 --> 0:59:11.520 for listening, and uh, we'll do this again soon. That's 0:59:11.600 --> 0:59:22.080 the end. Mm hmmm, Oh my god. It's a dangerous 0:59:22.080 --> 0:59:22.640 group here.