1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: Jeff, I called you, Jeff, Yes, absolutely, mm hm golf 2 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: is that they anything in golf that doesn't change? Anything 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: that changes the best in playing? Does this man a 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: one time winner on the PGA Tour? The point Alan 5 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: is he didn't go Hollywood. You need a fourth before 6 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: we get to the episode, we should tip our caps 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: to echo our corporate sponsors here and of course Lydia 8 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 1: co the New World Number one is a long time 9 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: Echo ambassador. Michael, do do you know my affection for 10 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: Lydia and I share it? Just a charming person and 11 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: an outstanding golfer. You've done her far better than I. 12 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: What can you tell us about her? Well? I still 13 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: have her hat from the Olympics in Rio is his 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: gorgeous New Zealand hat, and asked for I could keep it. 15 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: She said yes. But one time I was talking to her, 16 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: I said, where does your power come from? She says, 17 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: it's from the ground. You know. It's like a really 18 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: old school. And she has beautiful footwork. And I always 19 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: watch her swing the club and she's like she's dancing. 20 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: And as I'm as I'm observing this, I always noticed 21 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: her her Echo Biome shoes like they just seem to 22 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: give her superpowers. Have you have observed anything along those lines. Well, 23 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: you know what the great teachers say. There's only one 24 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: thing that connects you to the ground in this game, 25 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: and that's your They don't say your echo shoes, but 26 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: in this case, it is her echo shoes. So that's 27 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: pretty cool. The secret to Lydia COO's success along with 28 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: many other talents. But she's wearing the right footwears all right. 29 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: Back to ned A fourth, Hello and welcome back to 30 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: NITA four, a podcast for Michael Bamberger, Jeff Ogilvie and 31 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: myself invite a surprise guest on two of the people. 32 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: Don't know who's on the line. I happen to do so. 33 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 1: Um A little hint to you boys. He's a He's 34 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: known as a golf writer, but he's only written one 35 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: golf book, plus it's sequel. Um. He is a astronaut 36 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 1: of the inner cell. To use a felicitous phrase from 37 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: one of his one of his that he typed. Um. 38 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: He found in a place called the Lyn Institute on 39 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 1: the cliffs of Big Sir, which was really the first 40 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: gathering spot for searchers and wanderers and seekers who wanted 41 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: to explore the mind body connection. It's still thriving and 42 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:26,679 Speaker 1: after launching the helping to launch anyway, the the counterculture 43 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: of the nineteen sixties and all these years later, Estlin 44 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: is still a draw from all over the world. So um, 45 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: any guesses who are our guest might be Oh, here's 46 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: another important detail. We come from the same hometown, Salinas, California, 47 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: and it's not John Steinbeg. So there's not too many 48 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 1: type as we've come out of there. Michael was he 49 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: was he delivered by John Steinbeck's physician father or grandfather. 50 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 1: You're you're getting warmer. His father delivered John Steinbeg. Let 51 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: me rephrase his father or grandfather? Was his father delivered 52 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: John Seinbeck? I think possibly the grandfather, but you would 53 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: know better than I. Well, well we can clear that up. Okay, 54 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: I think we know. Did John Updyke say of this 55 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: writer to be named he took the lid off the 56 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: game or something to that effect. Yes, I think it's 57 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,079 Speaker 1: now obvious that our guest is one Michael Murphy, author 58 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: of Golf in the Kingdom. Mr Murphy, there you are. 59 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: I remember you very well. And Michael Boberger, Oh my god, 60 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: it's a dangerous group here. Um, what a what a 61 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: pleasure the pledges Ahman, So this is the fiftieth anniversary 62 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: of Golf in the Kingdom in this slender little volume 63 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: that that you typed up your first ever golf book, 64 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: and um, it's in dirt all all this time. Can 65 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: you believe that it's being Michael? Well, you know it's 66 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: a miracle, you know, right having written it when I 67 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: was five years old, you know it's it's lasted so long. Anyway, 68 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: it goes on and on and sending very strange messages. 69 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: My way is Golf in the Kingdom is beloved in 70 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: Australia as it is here in the United States. I 71 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 1: think so. I mean it's a universal book, right, I 72 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: mean you have to have played a lot of golf, 73 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: I think, to really fall in love with it, because 74 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: I think golf is such a confusing game and it 75 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: challenges everything in your brain, and everything you try to 76 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: do makes it worse. And this sort of helps to 77 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: get you there, you know, it helps to sort of 78 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: show you why you're wrong, but you can't really grasp it, 79 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: Like you can see it, but you can't grasp it. 80 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: In the book. Every time you read it. It's sort 81 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: of takes you where you want to go, but you 82 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: can't get there. It's a magic book. I think you 83 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 1: have to have played a lot of golf though, and 84 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 1: I think it really helps to have played in Scotland. Jeff, 85 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 1: I called you, Jeff, Yes, absolutely, well, it's you know, 86 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: it's had quite a readership outside the golf world, and 87 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 1: that's what's been a a big surprise for for me 88 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: through the years that um, people accuse me of a 89 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: lot of getting them to play golf, you know, and 90 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: you know, I said, are you are you happy about that? 91 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: Some of them say, oh, very happy and others say 92 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: not so happy. But it's uh, it kind of it's 93 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 1: struck a nerve, you know, with these kinds of and 94 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: well when it was published, um outside the box experiences 95 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: and that's I think it's that's been the it's lifeline 96 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 1: UM into this last thing leadership. So uh, it's it was. 97 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 1: It's a tremendous surprise to me. I mean, the range 98 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: of experiences people have wanted to share with me, and 99 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: certainly on golf courses, you know, people who have had 100 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: these um feel of sympathy with the experiences in it. 101 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: Michael you you're write in the book of the the 102 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: Peak Experience, Hogan at the height of his powers. We've 103 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: talked about Tiger in two thousand. Uh, Jeff Ogilby a 104 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: wing for another Peak Experience. Was the writing of that 105 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 1: book A peak Experience? Did you write it in a 106 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: sort of fever dream. I've never had a chance to 107 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,679 Speaker 1: ask you that before. Well, it was, you know, it's 108 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,239 Speaker 1: not only the first book I wrote, but the first 109 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 1: book I tried to write. And uh it uh, it 110 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 1: just it came and it was actually uh a great 111 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: folks at Viking Press. You know, it was back two, 112 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: so it was not really edited. Um, so it came 113 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: out and it's um. You know, I've written another seven books, 114 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: but none of them came like this one. Um. You know, 115 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: so um um relatively easily. But I've had the idea 116 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: to write it ten years earlier, and then instead I 117 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: started as an institute and you know, survive that, and 118 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: then I sat down to write this thing. So I 119 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: could argue that I was kind of you know, just stating. 120 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it was incubating it and it all just 121 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: came out the way it did, and it struck a 122 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: nerve and it's had this unusual publishing history, you know 123 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: where Oh boy, anyway, that's a story into itself. So 124 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: I would say it was in a state um of 125 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: self discovery and um um, you know, since Jeff, you've 126 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: joined this circle here, I will take the liberty to 127 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: you know, be very frank about some of these um 128 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: experiences that the book is attracted to me and triggered 129 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: from the writing of synchronicities and coincidences and memories and 130 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: this could happen. Uh, you know when you're writing, you 131 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: guys know it. Uh um that certain um acts just 132 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: channel stuff. It's just amazing. And so a lot of 133 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: it was remembering my remembering you know. It was kind 134 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: of a uh uh things that I knew, uh playing 135 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: when I was in you know, I didn't start playing 136 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 1: until I was fourteen, so those experiences in high school 137 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: and stuff came back and um. So, yes, I was 138 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: in a state when I wrote it. I would say, 139 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: I was, Jeff, that sounds a little bit like being 140 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: in the zone as a golfer, you know, like, can 141 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: you relate to some of the things he's saying You're thinking, 142 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: but you're not thinking. It just sort of comes back 143 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: to you. Well, yeah, I mean, it's absolutely I always 144 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: read it as an instruction book. I mean, it's such 145 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: a beautiful story, but I always read it as an 146 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 1: instruction book, UM, because it doesn't take if you take 147 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: a deep dive into golf, it doesn't take you very 148 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: long that you're the problem. Um. The the golf is 149 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: that the only thing in golf that doesn't change, the 150 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: only thing that changes the person playing. UM. And it 151 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: didn't take me very long to realize that I was 152 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: my problem, not the game. And I always felt that this, Yeah, 153 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: Golfing and Kingdom was an instruction book, is a little bit. 154 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: One of my favorite books, which is an odd book, 155 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: I guess for a young person to read, was gold 156 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: um Zen in the out of Motorcycle Maintenance. Um, with 157 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: this voice in his head that's going on this whole time. 158 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: Just there's such annoying character that he just keeps bringing 159 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: in you just fight through all these pages. And I 160 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: just hated it. And that was like playing golf. I'm 161 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: just annoying myself while I'm playing golf, Like can't I 162 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: just get out of the way and just swing, Like 163 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: I know I can swing it in there, but why 164 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: can't I stop talking to myself and just swing. Um, so, 165 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: I yeah, I loved the story. It's a beautiful it's 166 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: I think it's sort of the best sort of exposure 167 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: of the mystical side of golf, which has never really 168 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: talked about very often, but it clearly exists, Like you say, 169 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: with the synchronicities of stuff. I mean you have examples. 170 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: I mean Tiger showed us a lot of times. I mean, 171 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 1: how did he hold those parts on the last hole 172 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: so many times? You know, like it's not because his 173 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: strokers any better or he reads the green any better. 174 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: I mean, he's obviously good at that. But how does 175 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: that parton Tory Pines go in? How does Jack's partner 176 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: eight six? I'm seventeen that the Master's going it never 177 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: break broke that way ever? Again, I mean, these things exist, um, 178 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: and it's clear and obvious. I think once you open 179 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:55,079 Speaker 1: your eyes to it, and I think Golf in the 180 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: Kingdom shows you that. I think it's I think anyone 181 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: who really wants to take a deep dive into often 182 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: understand why it's such an enduring guy and everybody loves 183 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: it so much has to read this book a lot. 184 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: I think you have to read it a lot, because 185 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: I think every time you rate it is more that yef. 186 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: I appreciate all those remarks. I am very much. It's um, yeah, 187 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: it's uh. The game has a peculiar genius for opening 188 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: the world up. Of course, you get out on some 189 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: of those golf courses and the world has already been 190 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 1: opened up by all the love that's gone into say, 191 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:31,839 Speaker 1: you know, I was as a kid, I was very 192 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: lucky to get to play pebble all the time, Pebble 193 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: Beach and for five dollars back then. And boy, you 194 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: go out there is never the same that golf course 195 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: it and so it's the world. So you go through 196 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: these big gardens and then this something happens to people, 197 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: and people want to tell me about their experiences. And 198 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,319 Speaker 1: it's been a hell of a journey for fifty years 199 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: listening to just as if I'm you know, father Murphy 200 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: taking confession out on there on the golf course, that 201 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: they hear that, you know, if they know about golf 202 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,719 Speaker 1: in the Kingdom, they want to tell me about their experiences, 203 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 1: both negative and positive. Um. And that has been a 204 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 1: rare privilege to to hear these stories for fifty years. 205 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: So it's it's an amazing game. I still suspect, I'm 206 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: all right, I believe, at least in my confident moments, 207 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: that I'm still learning things about the game and what 208 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: is it about it? Because you know, athletes have these 209 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: peak experiences that they never talked about. And I learned 210 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 1: that right away in response, you know, to them, to 211 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: you know, pro athletes who have been reading the book 212 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: and let me in adventures with them about this and that, 213 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:11,839 Speaker 1: and but golf evokes I think a wider range of 214 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: um rich, deep, often far out experience and any other game, 215 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: I mean certainly some high adventures, you know, um uh 216 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: bring this out. But anyway, it's amazing. Golf is still 217 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 1: under reported. Yeah, that's that's what That's what I said. 218 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: And you know, Jeff's in Australia and you're north of 219 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: San Francisco, and um, you guys have this deep connection 220 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: separated by oceans. But you could you can talk lyrically 221 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: about it. And uh, I'm wondering, you know, Jefvis, did 222 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: people come up to you in the way that Michael 223 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 1: is describing where they want to They want you to 224 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: explain the game to them, and they want to share 225 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: their stories with you. I mean, did you have that 226 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: in common? You're both kind of these oracle figures. Oracle 227 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: is a strong word. It's certainly people in airports, and 228 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: it's golf courses and you're in the pub sometimes and 229 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: it's you know, I've been working on my driver and 230 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: I don't know. They keep telling me I'm not an 231 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: inside path. But the ball doesn't do this, and the 232 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: ball doesn't do that, and how do I do this? 233 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: And how do you guys spin the ball from fifty 234 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: yards from the green? And um, most of it you 235 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: can't explain. You just have to do, you know. UM. 236 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: I think the biggest obstacle, which is what the book 237 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: sort of hints at and points out, UM, is you 238 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: just have to be totally and fully invested in what 239 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: you're doing, so much to the point where you don't 240 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: care about what happens next, you know, um it. And 241 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: that's the challenge. It's how do you get into a 242 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: golf shot so fully invested into a golf shot? I'm 243 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: not really here where it goes, because if you care 244 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: where it goes, that's where all the problems come from. Um. 245 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: And if you think of someone like Dustin Johnson, who 246 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: naturally is that way, he is so invested in what 247 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: he's doing, but it just doesn't seem to care where 248 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: it goes. And that's why he's so free and plays 249 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: so nice. You know. Um. That's really what my feeling 250 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: of the zone or the flow state or all this 251 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: stuff that we talk about, is that it's being so 252 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: invested in what you're doing that you forget about sort 253 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: of what you're doing, you know, And that's impossible. It's 254 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: a really difficult state to try to get into. It's 255 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: almost you have to try to not get into it, 256 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: but trying not to get into it's wrong as well, 257 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: you know. Um, So it's such it's this sort of 258 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: thing that you can see but you just can't grab. 259 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: And people want to know how we do it, and 260 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: I don't know how we do it. Um. I just 261 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: do it because I've been doing it for a long 262 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: time and it just I don't know. It just sort 263 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: of happens one day and I think, Michael, you said 264 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: you didn't start to your fourteen, and I think that's 265 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 1: younger than most, and I think you're sort of blessed 266 00:15:58,120 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: to start that young. But I mean, I was hit 267 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: ping pong balls around my house when I was three 268 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: or four, and I think the earlier you can get 269 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: to it, you're very you're at a very zend state. 270 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: When you're three or four, you know, you're just taking 271 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: it all in. You don't really care about results. You're 272 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: just having just total immersion and joy and fun about 273 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: hitting a ping pong ball down the hallway in your house. 274 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: And I think you've sort of in you condition yourself 275 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: to that's you get way in front of the curve. 276 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: I think when you start so young, um, and when 277 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: you look at Tiger was on TV when he was 278 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: in nappies right or diapers sorry, um, like he was 279 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: doing it from day one, and I think you sort 280 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: of there's an imprint on your whatever you want to 281 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: call it, if it's physical or psychological or spiritual or something, 282 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: there's an imprint. The earlier you start that you can 283 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: be so fully immersed in what you're doing that, um, 284 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: it's not about the result. The joy is in the 285 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: doing it, not in where the ball goes. And I 286 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: think that's the biggest challenge because the more people want 287 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: to play well, the more they care about where the 288 00:16:58,080 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: ball goes. But the more you care about where the 289 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: ball goes, the hotter it is to hit it where 290 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: you want to go. So I think that's why it's 291 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: such an enduring game and the book is still so 292 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: relevant fifty years later, because that really is the challenge 293 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: of the game is too to be so involved in 294 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: what you're doing that you forget about forget about where 295 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: the ball is going to go. And that's a really 296 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: hard thing to do. Uh. If I could just offer 297 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: Michael too quick observations and then and then a question. 298 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: One is this at this very much relates to golf 299 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: in the Kingdom, your astounding youthfulness and uh, at your 300 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: age is an inspiration to me, and I'm sure Alan 301 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: and Jeff as well. And the other thing, the other 302 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: quick observation is the astounding quality of the writing, where 303 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: like you feel like you're in front of the fireplace. 304 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: You can smell the heather, you can smell the whiskey, 305 00:17:54,480 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: you can smell Michael's desperation. Um, and how if you 306 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: just consider just the first half of the book, it 307 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,959 Speaker 1: is absolutely a classic example of quality writing in the 308 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: sense that the character starts in one place, goes through 309 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: a series of adventures, finishes someplace else. So I read 310 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: it as a probably just a little out of college 311 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: or early twenties, and it has been, as Cheff and 312 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: Allen have said, something you read again and again as 313 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: I read The Great ASPI and some other seminal works 314 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: in my life, because every time you get more out 315 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: of it. Anyway, that was just two quick observations I 316 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: wander to share, and Jeff part of me if I'm 317 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: not getting this correct. But I'm gonna say something Michael 318 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 1: that I believe I heard Jeff say this, And I'm wondering, 319 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 1: with all your study of peak experience and knowing Murphy 320 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 1: in the book, but particularly knowing Shiva's irons as you do, 321 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: what what your sense of this would be. I believe 322 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 1: Jeff once said, you know, he played an outstanding golf 323 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: and he won an he won of US Open, and 324 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: then he tried to get better and and Jeff correct 325 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 1: me if I have this wrong. Some years later, sometime later, 326 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: he discovered a better goal is just get better, but 327 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 1: don't try to get better, because he in the trying 328 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: to get better, confusion emerges. You get better, like we're 329 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: you know, I think we would all say by doing 330 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: Jeff correct me if I've got any part of that wrong, 331 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: which I may very well have. And Michael, I wonder 332 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: if that question even made any sense. Do you have 333 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 1: an insight into that conflict between trying to get better 334 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: at something and just getting better at something. I've got 335 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: an answer I would love to hear, Jeff, But you know, 336 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: either the first huge influence on me when I flipped, 337 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: you know, when I was at stand for as a student. 338 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: You guys know the story, and it was a blow 339 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: to the family. And you know, I went from you know, 340 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 1: semi respectable to completely disreputable and to become they thought 341 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: was a yogi or they called me a yogi. Where 342 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: I grew up, Selina's a tough town. Yogi is about 343 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 1: It's the worst thing you possibly could have been in 344 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: ninety or fifty so um anyway, um the influence triarra Bindo, 345 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 1: the great Indian philosopher and thinker, and uh so he um. 346 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: One of his many maxims was don't try to have 347 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: the same experience twice. Okay, practice faithfully whenever you're the 348 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: art the pleasures of practice, but um, never try to 349 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: have the same experience twice. And this is a dictum 350 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: in the ratist mystical traditions, because you say, well, if 351 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: you're a Buddhist practice you're trying to give up attachments 352 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: there or whatever the ethical system is you're using or whatever. 353 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 1: The method and practice is important. But it's what Jeff's 354 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: hitting right in in the core of the problem, that 355 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: are we're wired in such a way we're built for 356 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: the new, for novelty. So you could make the argument 357 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,639 Speaker 1: that once you try to imitate yourself as a writer, 358 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: I can say this, if you already try to imitate yourself, 359 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: you're going to become a hack writer. I mean, you 360 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: gotta let new stuff in and you have to, as 361 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: it were, risk becoming disreputable again, you know, because God 362 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: knows what this thing is gonna uh happen. Uh. This 363 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: this letting go experience, but it's letting go within what 364 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: you've been practicing. Um so this is this is one 365 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 1: of the tenderest, most delicate problems. I mean, and Jeff 366 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: nailed it right there. And you know, um uh, you 367 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: know Hogan was actually good on this point, you know, 368 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: and I do think it was. It was a subliminal 369 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: influence on me. You know, I wasn't thinking of him 370 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: when I wrote the book, but having watched him practice 371 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: so much over there Double Beach growing up, and people 372 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: gather on to watch him, and there was an enchantment. 373 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: And you'd see six or eight of the pros, the 374 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: touring pros, they're watching him practice. So um so when 375 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 1: they asked him about some of these shots, you know, 376 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: he had a tremendous repertoire of shots he could make. 377 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 1: And some of those Texas players, my god, they hit 378 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: They played this low game, all these low shots, and 379 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: then they could aeroplane it and it would rise and okay, 380 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 1: here you have a rising one. That's a draw or 381 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: or a fade and whatever. So he pulled his shots off, 382 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: and you know, he was sometimes asked, um, how how 383 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 1: is it that under a pressure you can hit so 384 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: many of these extraordinary shots and and he said, well, 385 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 1: I'm a looking guy. And they said lucky. You practice 386 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 1: more than anybody else. And he said, well, the more 387 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: you practice, the luckier you get. But he was he 388 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: was getting at this thing that I think Jeff's getting 389 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: at same thing. Um uh, the new see. And of course, 390 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 1: if you want to get metaphysical, you know, you know 391 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: that the whole section singing the praises of golf, that's 392 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:56,399 Speaker 1: a It was a parody of a Plato symposium. Yeah, 393 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: I think we've talked about this, and I think so 394 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: if you walk through Plato symposium, all the characters are 395 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 1: kind of a you know, I was having fun with 396 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 1: that idea. And and as you know, the great philosopher 397 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 1: Whitehead said, Western philosophy is nothing but a series of 398 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: footnotes to Plato. So it's kind of embedded this ancient 399 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 1: it's embedded in there. I mean, we could be fun 400 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: talking about that. So a lot of these and one 401 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: of the great truths is that we're born to eternal novelty. 402 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: And that's a hard truth for a lot of religious teachers. 403 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: And we know, I don't know where you guys want 404 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: to go with this esoteric meeting we're having here. Well, 405 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: we'll follow you anywhere. We'll follow you anywhere. Well know, 406 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: you said something, you said something an interesting minute ago 407 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: that I want to explore. You know, this idea being 408 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 1: disreputable because you know, you came from a family of doctor, 409 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: you were expected to be a doctor. You went to Stanford, uh, 410 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: you know, on a premed track, and then then you 411 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: took a philosophy class that blew your mind and sent 412 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 1: you down this this whole other path. But um, you know, 413 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: I read like like when I just reread Portnoy's Complaint 414 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: by Philip Roth, and I'm like, which is one of 415 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 1: my favorite books, Like, I can't believe this guy type 416 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 1: this out and his whole family could read it. You know, 417 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: it's like so raunchy and the amount of courage it 418 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: takes to put something out there to the whole world. 419 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: And of course he's not it's it's an act of fiction. 420 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: He's not the narrator, but people naturally wonder about the 421 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 1: writer behind the words and the bravery of that and 422 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,640 Speaker 1: many other books, you know, Tropica Cancer, Tropica Cancer. Henry 423 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: Miller reading that book is like, oh my god, I 424 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: can't leave. You just wrote that it's wild. Um, and 425 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: of course you don't, you're not working blue like that, 426 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: But um, how hard was it for you to to 427 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,920 Speaker 1: put this book out into the world and or even 428 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: just to go down this path knowing, uh, the way 429 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: selling us the way I do it is this dusty 430 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 1: farming town. It's it's not a hotbed of open mindedness. 431 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: And so for um, what was the struggle like for 432 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: you to take on this new world, this new identity 433 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: and leave behind what was expected of you. Yeah, that 434 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: was not a struggle. I mean they were thrilled that 435 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 1: I wrote a book. My brother was the designated writer 436 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,959 Speaker 1: in the family and he had this nationwide bestseller, you know, 437 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 1: The Sergeant, and so I came along and so it's 438 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: actually me becoming reputable. Oh my god, I published a book. 439 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 1: And of course had you know, escalately been going for 440 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: ten years at that point. But um, but there are 441 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 1: different kinds of being reputable, reputable with whom you can 442 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: be so anchored in being reputable in a small circle 443 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: of your um pals or your family or your associate, 444 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: you know, your colleagues, and it's hard when you're really 445 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: good at something to break set. You know. This is 446 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: stupendous problem in the arts, really, and uh, you know, 447 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: we do. You know, I do have friends in the 448 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: movie business, and you know a lot of folks in 449 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: Hollywood come up to us and this is a standing 450 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:24,959 Speaker 1: um issue and it's uh like going and on about this. 451 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: So reputable doesn't mean just about sex. It's about whatever, 452 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 1: you know, whatever you're supposed to do that's engraved in you. 453 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 1: And it's the reliabilities we need, we need, we need reliabilities, 454 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: But how do you live a life that's balanced and 455 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: reputable and still full of the new? And boy, when 456 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: you get as old as I am, you know, and 457 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 1: your watch your friends going down one you know, it's 458 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: like in an ancient forest, one tree after another falling 459 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: down around you and my wife and I you know, 460 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: I'm ninety two now, so you can imagine. I mean, 461 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: they they've been falling faster. And how stuck people get 462 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:19,199 Speaker 1: as they get older, you know, how stuck and the 463 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 1: limitation of options. So, um, I think what Jeff says 464 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: about shot making itself is a microcosm of our larger 465 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: station in life, what you think, and it's and I 466 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: think the ultimate thing is that um the game of 467 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: all games. The reason the cosmos is here is the 468 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: unfoldment of this greater life that awaits us. You know, 469 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: if we're going to get really serious there, you know, 470 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: a greater life is pressing to be born in us, 471 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: really and um, you know it's one of the attractions 472 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: of sport, I must say. I you know, I've always 473 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: been a a nut about sports and loving it. But 474 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: it's an enactment of the new. I mean, what a 475 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: new great um athlete appears, or a great new team 476 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: or somebody does a great thing that's never been done. 477 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: The world lights up to some degree. It really does, 478 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: don't you think. I mean, I mean, you guys are 479 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: out there reporting on this all the time. It's um 480 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: uh you know, the suspense, the trauma, that the newness. 481 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: But Jeff, you you know, and I mean you've done 482 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 1: it many times in your life. What do you you want? 483 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: What well US Open, Ryder Cup with three World championships 484 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,479 Speaker 1: or what do you call those big ones? Yeah, they 485 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: used to be called w tcs. Um. Yeah, I mean 486 00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: I think you hit on a couple of things that 487 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: I've had along the way and felt, um, the new 488 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: thing is fascinating. Jack told us he Actually I wasn't 489 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: sitting there at the time, but Jack used to love 490 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: walking around the locker room a memorial sort of holding 491 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: court like waiting for golfers to ask him questions. Um. 492 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: And he was fantastic to talk to. But there was 493 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 1: one day I wasn't there, but he told a story 494 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: and the boys and some of the someone told me. 495 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: I can't remember who told me, but they asked him 496 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: sort of what swing thoughts and what did you think 497 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: about when you play golf, and did you ever have 498 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: any favorite swing thoughts or sort of ways you went 499 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: about it? And he says, you know, when I was 500 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: playing my best I tried to I got to the 501 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: range every morning and tried to have a new thought 502 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: from yesterday, no matter how well I played yesterday, I 503 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: tried to think something new today. Um. Because he thought 504 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: they'd get stale very quick. And he tried to do 505 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: something new every single day because he realized that exactly 506 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: what you're saying, Michael, that it's all about new, um 507 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: and fresh and a new experience, and it's got to 508 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: keep you engaged. And if you sort of get stuck 509 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: in the tram tracks, you keep going the same direction, 510 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 1: you've got to get out of the tram tracks and 511 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: sort of get something news. I thought that was fascinating 512 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: that Um he always tried. I mean, it doesn't matter, 513 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: it's it's almost the discipline it takes to have a 514 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: great swing thought on Thursday and shoot sixty five and 515 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: hit the ball perfectly and come out on Friday and 516 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: do something differently. That's almost impossible to do. And it's 517 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: the greatest golfer of all time, well, one of the 518 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: two greatest golfers of all time actively tried to do that. 519 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: He tapped into something that most of us haven't. I 520 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: think is pretty interesting. Um And I think, like you say, 521 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: it's the new thing it golf is a bit like music, right, 522 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: It's there's no destination for music, it's just music for 523 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: music's sake. And I think we all played golf with 524 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: a destination in mind. And I don't think that's what 525 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: it's about. I think we want to play golf for 526 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: golf's sake. Um And I think, well, that's the enduring 527 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: part of this book, is it. It's trying to point 528 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: you to that direction, Like it's there's no destination here, Like, 529 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: just get immersed and get fascinated with the game, and 530 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: the more you get fast and added with the game, 531 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: the more you're going to get out of it. Um. 532 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it's this metaphysical philosophy stuff. I 533 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: think golf is a very good If it doesn't send 534 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: you that way, you're not really paying attention. I think 535 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: this golf is a is a window to this world 536 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: that or a doorway that if you start playing golf 537 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: and you get in, you get involved, it's going to 538 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: take you the direction that Michael's talking about. I just 539 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: think it has to unless you're not paying attention as 540 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 1: you read too many Golf Digest instruction articles and um 541 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: um not picking on any publications, but you just you 542 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: get down this rabbit hole of cutting golf into little pieces, 543 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: and the nature of cutting is you can always cut 544 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: it to a smaller piece. Um. I think golf has 545 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 1: got this disease, or maybe humans have got a disease, 546 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: probably of taking something beautiful and cutting it in half 547 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 1: and wondering how it works. And then you cut it 548 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: in half, you realize you can cut it a half again, 549 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: and then you cut in half again. You can cut 550 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: it a half again, and that never ends with golf, 551 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: with anything, and golf were very susceptible to do this. 552 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: And I think the secret, not the secret, the secrets 553 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: that a right word. That's been a really ruined word. 554 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,719 Speaker 1: But um, the idea is that you're trying to put 555 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: all the pieces back together, You're not trying to cut 556 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: it up. You know most people are going the other 557 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: way with it. Um. I think it's fascinating. And back 558 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: to Hogan just a little quickly under start the Hogan thing. 559 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: Um we ask everybody asks Hogan or great golfers, Well, 560 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: how do you do that? And then afterwards they start 561 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: thinking about it and chop it up after they've done it. 562 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: But they didn't learn how to do it by chopping 563 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: it up and doing that. They just loved Hogan just 564 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: loved practice. He wasn't practicing to get better. He woke 565 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: up in the morning and couldn't think of anything better 566 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 1: than just to try to hit great golf shots. He 567 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: was just immersed and fascinated with hitting great golf shots. 568 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: And that the byproduct of that was the one golf tournaments. 569 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: I don't think he tried to win golf tournaments. He 570 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: woke up in the morning and all he wanted to 571 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: do was hit great golf shots. And I think, um, 572 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: when if you try to copy that, it doesn't work. 573 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: You know, you've got to light the fire in yourself 574 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: to be fascinated yourself, and you've got all you want 575 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: to do in the morning is to get up and 576 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 1: at great golf shots or right great? Right? Well, I 577 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: mean I assume writing the I feel like if you 578 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: just love writing and just start writing and keep writing, 579 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: something good is going to come out of it. The 580 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: more you just get into writing, well, that's the good result. 581 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 1: If you set out with a destination in mind, you're 582 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: probably gonna not right right as well, because you're gonna 583 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: you're putting yourself in tram tracks and you're you're giving 584 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: yourself a destination. Um. And the great things in life 585 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,280 Speaker 1: don't have a destination. They just they exist for themselves. 586 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:39,320 Speaker 1: You just you play golf because it's fun to play. 587 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:44,959 Speaker 1: You don't play golf to get anywhere. Um. And human 588 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:46,959 Speaker 1: nature as we're always trying to get somewhere with something. 589 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: But how do you know where you're trying to get. 590 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: You don't know where you're trying to get, you know, 591 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,399 Speaker 1: so how do you get somewhere? You can't decide where 592 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: to go with your golf because alway they think is 593 00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: you don't know where it's going to go. So just 594 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 1: have fun doing it, okay. T Jeff's wint it's a 595 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: really odd game, as almost all games are, because there 596 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: is no product in the end. There's a trophy, maybe 597 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: your name's on it, maybe it's not, but there's no 598 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: product in the end except for some kind of vague 599 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: internal feeling, which, of course, Michael, you captured you know 600 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 1: so extremely well, and in your book. Yeah, it's even 601 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: more than the feeling itself. It's trying. It's the quest 602 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 1: to find that feeling, right like, because the feeling can 603 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: be fleeting, but to me, like when I when I'm 604 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: playing my best, uh, I'm just like there's a sensation 605 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: of trying to get it. It's just like total effortlessness 606 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 1: when I swing the club and uh, and then you have, 607 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: you know, five minute walk you get to try it again, 608 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: and there's those five minutes like the hardest. You're just like, Okay, 609 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: don't get too excited, don't think about well, okay, if 610 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: I if I birdied this hole and I finished with 611 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: two pars, I can you shoot my best score ever? Like, 612 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: you know, it's like the walk to me is one 613 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,319 Speaker 1: of the hardest parts of golf, with to not not 614 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: getting your own way and not get not start chasing 615 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: a different feeling. Like it's uh, I think I think 616 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: Sis might have had something to say about this. You know, 617 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: let the nothingness into your shots, right, Like that's that's 618 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: one of the most oft repeated lines from Golf in 619 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: the Kingdom. But the nothingness is the key. It's uh, 620 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: that's that's like kind of where that's what I'm always 621 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: chasing the different words in different languages around what you know, 622 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: nothing is about. I mean, there's you know, Buddhism is 623 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: based in that no notion. There are a lot of 624 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: beautiful Sanskrit words for this, but you know words, you know, 625 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: you could get approximations to experience with words and words 626 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 1: themselves then can produce great experiences. But um uh. Finally, 627 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 1: that word um you can get you close, but by itself, 628 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: it can't get you there. I mean you have to 629 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: experience it. Ah, that's what he meant. You know, he 630 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 1: might have called it something else. You know some Sanskrit 631 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: word shunyums that's the word sunyumnata, and it's trying, you know, 632 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: your emptiness, um, nothingness, the fertile void. You know, different 633 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 1: translators will translate that word. But people have been testifying 634 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 1: to this and to this, these further dimensions of human experience, 635 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: you know, for thousands of years um, and as it 636 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 1: comes into the culture. It's just amazing to me that 637 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:50,760 Speaker 1: writing this book, I UM the golf is a doorway 638 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: for lots of people into this the first time they've 639 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: ever had a deep Buddhist I mean, people will sit 640 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 1: in um retreats for years and not have some of 641 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: the experiences they have on golf courses. It's it's a 642 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: great irony, um. But there it is, this, these possibilities 643 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: waiting for us, and golf has a peculiar genius for 644 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: bringing people towards it. It's it's just a fact. You know. 645 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: It's like, uh, you know, fifty years I've been you 646 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: know this. Uh, the gift of writing the book has 647 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: given me just to watch this window oh keep opening 648 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: from that game. It's uh uh, it's it's a fact. Um. 649 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: There it sits and we argue about it from so 650 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,840 Speaker 1: many different angles, you know, and you know, are the 651 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,360 Speaker 1: Southeast nice people are not nice people? You know are whatever. 652 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,319 Speaker 1: There's always something brand new to argue about or on 653 00:38:54,360 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 1: the game, the politics that um, oh god, everything, the 654 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 1: ecology of it, and uh, and yet people come back 655 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 1: to this um incredible uh something that UM delivers. These 656 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 1: experiences are people experience, you know, having started this and 657 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: it's been going for sixty years now, and people come 658 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: from all over the world in search of these uh, 659 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: larger possibilities in human life. And it's uh, you know, 660 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:39,319 Speaker 1: and some of my um somewhat disreputable moments, I've proclaimed 661 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 1: that golf's delivering more experience, more stories than Buddhist practice 662 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 1: in America, And of course it's upset some of my friends. 663 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: But uh, then they start thinking about it, you know. Um, 664 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,799 Speaker 1: but that anyway, Michael, you've told me that, Um, there 665 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 1: was a lot of that. You made such a study 666 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: of Hogan, and you sat near Mrs Hogan. I think 667 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: at Olympic and the influence Hogan had on you, and 668 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: that there was a lot of Hogan and Siva's. I 669 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:14,280 Speaker 1: never got a chance, of course, to be around Hogan, 670 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 1: but I think of Sheba's your character, Sheva's irons is 671 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:23,399 Speaker 1: having so much warmth and humanity in connection with other 672 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 1: people that I don't necessarily so associate with Hogan. I 673 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: don't know if that's correct or not, but I'm wondering 674 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: what else came to you that let you fill in 675 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 1: Sheba's in such a rich way. You're my psychoanalyst. Yes, 676 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:47,320 Speaker 1: a matter of speaking, I mean, oh boy, Um, well, 677 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: I mean there's that, Michael, which of which I'm conscious, 678 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 1: and that which is of which I'm unconscious. Uh. You know, 679 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: anybody who writes um a book that is in the 680 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 1: is imaginative and and you know, I say, people say, well, 681 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 1: is it fiction or or nonfiction? I say, well, it's 682 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 1: semi it's it's semi fiction because the experiences my kind 683 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:20,279 Speaker 1: of discipline was, and I do differentiate it from I 684 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: call it mystical realism because people want explanations as as 685 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: distinguished from magical realism. You know, in the great Latin 686 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,760 Speaker 1: novelists with gold fish from the sky and redwood trees 687 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,760 Speaker 1: that put their arms around you and all. There's nothing 688 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,839 Speaker 1: like that, exactly in golf in the Kingdom. These are 689 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,360 Speaker 1: experiences that people have. And you know, I wrote a sequel, 690 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,720 Speaker 1: it's the sequel, you know, the Kingdom of suba Science. 691 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: All those experiences actually happen to people and so um 692 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:57,399 Speaker 1: uh so too, um so, all of that came into 693 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:03,720 Speaker 1: play writing the book. So um so, I channeled the character, 694 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 1: you know, but it did. He did. He materialized in 695 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,880 Speaker 1: front of me and pretty soon this could happen. You 696 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 1: asked me about the state I was in. Pretty soon, 697 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 1: um I was hearing the stuff I wrote down, you know, 698 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 1: I was hearing it. And people think, well, yeah, you 699 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,239 Speaker 1: know this is on the edge of schizophrenia. Uh well, 700 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 1: accept writers are flirting with the same sorts of things 701 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:36,600 Speaker 1: as certain psychotics. Uh do you know the you know, 702 00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: the m m PI in the Minnesota Multiphasing Inventory. I 703 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 1: don't want to get too fancy here, but it's it's 704 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:47,400 Speaker 1: been given to more people than any other single test, millions. 705 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:54,279 Speaker 1: And there's something called the schizophrenia scale. And when you know, 706 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,400 Speaker 1: when it's given to a lot of writers, they scored 707 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: very high on the schizophrenia scale. Um, because it's um, 708 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: but it's also has to be accompanied by some of 709 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 1: the stability scales. But it's opening that the doors of 710 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:15,360 Speaker 1: the mind and this stuff comes. Uh. So that was 711 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,120 Speaker 1: you know, it was the first book I tried to 712 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 1: write let alone, right, Um, so the you know, it's 713 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: kind of quasi channeling. And you could say that in 714 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 1: great art and in great sports performance, and I think 715 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,440 Speaker 1: it's again I would argue with Jeff, this will getting 716 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 1: that this thing if you can open the not only 717 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,720 Speaker 1: the doors of perception, but open up all the hidden 718 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:45,759 Speaker 1: windows of your mind body complex. I mean, would you 719 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: think about what goes into hitting a let's say a shot. 720 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,759 Speaker 1: Let's I'm thinking I was right next to Hogan when 721 00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,120 Speaker 1: he hit a shot at that opening loss to fleck. 722 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,719 Speaker 1: And it was in grass pretty I mean it was 723 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,359 Speaker 1: in the rough, and but it was one of these 724 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 1: low shots of these some of these Texas players you know, 725 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 1: tell me Bold and Jimmy to marry. They did these 726 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,919 Speaker 1: little shots. It would rise, but this one, honest to God, 727 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,799 Speaker 1: to the left of the pin, rising and fading out 728 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:22,880 Speaker 1: of high grass. All right. How many muscle fibers in 729 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,400 Speaker 1: his body and how many nerves and his brain and 730 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:29,919 Speaker 1: cerebellum and everywhere else were involved in that? Nobody could 731 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,799 Speaker 1: cut pozzib We count them and he couldn't. I would 732 00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:38,479 Speaker 1: argualy channel that shot. He channeled it. Now. I think 733 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,320 Speaker 1: he probably had an image of that's what he wanted 734 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: to do. He wanted to play a low rising and 735 00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:51,480 Speaker 1: fade into that um. And uh. It was interesting because 736 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,240 Speaker 1: before he hit the shot, I was standing near him 737 00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,799 Speaker 1: and he yelled at someone, how Sam. He kind of 738 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:05,560 Speaker 1: measured himself against Sam. Sneed a lot, and and the 739 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 1: guy yelled back, oh, he's under so many under or whatever, 740 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,440 Speaker 1: and he shook his head. He took that into consideration. 741 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,319 Speaker 1: He may have been computing how much he was going 742 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,200 Speaker 1: to go for, you know, a lower or higher score. 743 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:22,360 Speaker 1: I don't know, but anyway, there was the settled sense 744 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:28,640 Speaker 1: centered down computing that and then pulling the shot off. Well, 745 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: you have to believe me, and that is like me 746 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:39,480 Speaker 1: writing a paragraph, uh and not anticipating it. I didn't 747 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,240 Speaker 1: see it coming. You see what I mean? You guys, 748 00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: well you know you're writing right as writers. I mean, 749 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,200 Speaker 1: you don't know this sentence exactly is coming and don't 750 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:54,520 Speaker 1: you but it appears. And that is this marriage that 751 00:45:54,600 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 1: we all have with our unconscious, our subliminal mind. People say, well, 752 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:02,680 Speaker 1: what do you how do you see the unconscious? Well, 753 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:07,239 Speaker 1: I say, well, think one image in Star Wars the 754 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 1: movie are two D two. You know, the little the 755 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,759 Speaker 1: robot goes wrong. Okay, we each have our R two 756 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 1: D two. It's our unconscious. It's always working. So you 757 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:19,839 Speaker 1: have to know how to listen are too D two 758 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:25,000 Speaker 1: But so one. For for a writer, it comes as 759 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:29,919 Speaker 1: a sentence or an image or even a paragraph. When 760 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 1: you get one of these long runs, it's um, I 761 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 1: actually do think um. I owe some of it to 762 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:41,040 Speaker 1: my Irish ancestry, because you know, the father's side of 763 00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,399 Speaker 1: the family. All this, I mean, there was a lot 764 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,640 Speaker 1: of competition for who is going to blow the longest 765 00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,239 Speaker 1: riff at dinner. I mean there was, I mean, it 766 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:54,400 Speaker 1: was it was you know. Uh. You know, these cultural 767 00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:58,400 Speaker 1: steriotypes often have some truth in them, but you rejoice, 768 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,000 Speaker 1: you know, ulysses or something. I mean some of those 769 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:06,239 Speaker 1: are paragraphs that he channeled. Okay, and the same with 770 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,920 Speaker 1: certain rounds of golf. I'll tell you. The only person 771 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,560 Speaker 1: who ever played a great game in his life that 772 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:18,360 Speaker 1: I played against once was Kenney Ventury and he was fifteen. 773 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:24,560 Speaker 1: I was sixteen. And um he uh became famous in 774 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,040 Speaker 1: our part of the world up here, you know, um 775 00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,839 Speaker 1: in northern California when he was UM. I would say, 776 00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,919 Speaker 1: from the time he was about seventeen to twenty that 777 00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:40,439 Speaker 1: he would uh maybe get five or six holes where 778 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,719 Speaker 1: the ball was stiff to the pin, I mean within feet, 779 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:49,080 Speaker 1: you know. And it was um. And then he went 780 00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 1: out on the tour there and he did well. But 781 00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 1: he I remember that as a kid having known him, 782 00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,480 Speaker 1: and UM, I can't say I played again stim. I 783 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,040 Speaker 1: mean we were matched with each other. It was a 784 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:08,520 Speaker 1: pathetic mismatch. But anyway, um uh. So the point I 785 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 1: want to make is this are too deep to that 786 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:16,880 Speaker 1: we that is in us uh is the subliminal mind, 787 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:22,040 Speaker 1: our secret magic. Uh. It can be there for a 788 00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:25,080 Speaker 1: few seconds, or a few minutes, or a few hours 789 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,040 Speaker 1: or over a period of time. It's uh, you know 790 00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:32,160 Speaker 1: this comes up a lot, don int es um people 791 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,360 Speaker 1: coming from the you know, from all over the world 792 00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:40,280 Speaker 1: to talk about this stuff. It's um. Uh, it's hugely 793 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:44,840 Speaker 1: and once again, golf is an incredible venue for people 794 00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:49,760 Speaker 1: to experience this stuff. It's amazing. I mean, well, Jeff, 795 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,960 Speaker 1: obviously in your life, I mean you've done it. I mean, 796 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:57,000 Speaker 1: to win those big tournaments, Jesus. And the competition you 797 00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,600 Speaker 1: guys are against. You know, in Hogan's day, do ten 798 00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:03,799 Speaker 1: or fifteen guys out there who could really play? But 799 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 1: now you guys watched about a couple of d well, 800 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,439 Speaker 1: I mean everybody out there now everyone hits the ball 801 00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,640 Speaker 1: much further than any anybody thought of hitting it when 802 00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,319 Speaker 1: I was younger, when Hogan was playing. I mean, you 803 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:25,080 Speaker 1: hear it further. Um. But all that competition, and it's 804 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:34,400 Speaker 1: a a cohort of magic has emerged. And say, although 805 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,759 Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting that certain players, I mean a 806 00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,239 Speaker 1: lot of people turn on you know, we don't need 807 00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:45,719 Speaker 1: to repeat this to just watch Tiger you know and 808 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:52,880 Speaker 1: and so and um, you could argue that in the 809 00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,160 Speaker 1: old days, I mean when Hogan was playing, and some 810 00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,400 Speaker 1: of those guys were such characters, you know, so people 811 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,000 Speaker 1: was kind of like watching the Harlem Globe Trotters. You 812 00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,360 Speaker 1: go to the Crosby clam Bay can see some of 813 00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:08,719 Speaker 1: these guys play. It was colorful characters. Some I don't 814 00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:10,400 Speaker 1: know how you feel about this job, but there's a 815 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:16,799 Speaker 1: lot of um, more conformity on the tour. I do 816 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,440 Speaker 1: have a question for you, Michael. I mean that you're 817 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,960 Speaker 1: not playing a ton of golf anymore, presumably, Um, do 818 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,759 Speaker 1: you still do you dream about golf? Do you can 819 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,799 Speaker 1: you still summon in your body the sensation of hitting 820 00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,480 Speaker 1: golf shots? Like how much does the game live within 821 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:37,560 Speaker 1: you still? You know, great athletes do leave legacies in 822 00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,640 Speaker 1: the minds of people who were near them when they 823 00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:44,239 Speaker 1: were playing or even on television. I mean, we all 824 00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:48,920 Speaker 1: know there are certain shots that are are get me 825 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:52,600 Speaker 1: take that shot. When Hogan hit that shot, that's in me, 826 00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:57,800 Speaker 1: I can feel it. It was so thrilling. It's like, um, 827 00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:03,640 Speaker 1: you know, remembering the most delicious experiences in your life. 828 00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:08,120 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's not to be too crass, but 829 00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:15,480 Speaker 1: you can remember some erotic highlights. There are certain things 830 00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,759 Speaker 1: you will never forget. And it's not just that you 831 00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,440 Speaker 1: have a mental image. You feel it, particularly if you 832 00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:26,360 Speaker 1: ever played the game. You know, um, you know what 833 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,359 Speaker 1: I mean. And it's almost as good as the real thing. 834 00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:33,080 Speaker 1: The remembering might be better. I was watching Tiger and 835 00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,200 Speaker 1: I actually was experiencing on some of those drives you 836 00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:44,080 Speaker 1: and I was experiencing lust. I'm sure that's true. So 837 00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,719 Speaker 1: there's a lineage, I mean, I'm sorry, a legacy that 838 00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:54,360 Speaker 1: great athletes leave out there in the memories of others 839 00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:58,799 Speaker 1: really well. And and also great writers and great storytellers. 840 00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,240 Speaker 1: I mean, Jeff's up and down on the seven second 841 00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,600 Speaker 1: hole at Wingfoot will live on forever. I mean, just 842 00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:08,040 Speaker 1: as golf in the Kingdom will, just as to the 843 00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:11,160 Speaker 1: links Land will. I mean, it's uh, it's kind of 844 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:13,600 Speaker 1: neat to bring together people on this, on this this 845 00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,200 Speaker 1: one conversation who have touched a lot of folks in 846 00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:20,239 Speaker 1: different ways, and uh, you know, it's it's fun for me. 847 00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:23,160 Speaker 1: I I feel like I'm just having an out of 848 00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,799 Speaker 1: body experience watching you guys talk about these things. But 849 00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,359 Speaker 1: it's it's one of the great things about the nineteenth Hole. 850 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,680 Speaker 1: You know, you play over in Scotland and my god, 851 00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:37,239 Speaker 1: you're rubbed raw in the wind and it's okay. But 852 00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:39,200 Speaker 1: if you go into the clubhouse and you have a 853 00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:43,000 Speaker 1: single maldis a single and you don't get halfway up 854 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,040 Speaker 1: to heaven, You're not going to get there when you die. 855 00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:47,879 Speaker 1: It's uh, you know what I mean. I mean it's 856 00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:53,759 Speaker 1: because it opens up um uh, well, it just inhibits 857 00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,920 Speaker 1: you to some extent and in that just an ambition, 858 00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:03,680 Speaker 1: amazing things are rise and um so that in that 859 00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:09,120 Speaker 1: sense we're so vulnerable and contagious to one another. And 860 00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:14,000 Speaker 1: when you have a sports arena with millions of people watching, 861 00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:19,760 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's at times I just think underrated 862 00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:25,600 Speaker 1: how an athlete can do something. It's a thrilled at 863 00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:29,680 Speaker 1: last and reverberates forever as long as that anybody who 864 00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:37,000 Speaker 1: experienced it, there's alive the legacy of our greatness to 865 00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:42,240 Speaker 1: one another. And um, let's say somebody who's been down 866 00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:46,880 Speaker 1: and out and has uh not done a lot of 867 00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:52,879 Speaker 1: good in life and does one incredible, great and good 868 00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:57,279 Speaker 1: thing and it reverberates where it reverberates, so we can 869 00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:03,680 Speaker 1: all add to this in incredibly cruel but grace laden 870 00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:08,319 Speaker 1: world we live in. I mean, you know, um and 871 00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:14,520 Speaker 1: uh so anyway, it's um. People say to me, Um, 872 00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,880 Speaker 1: I love a challenge like this. M Well, of course, 873 00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:20,960 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, Mike, it's a silly game. 874 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:25,560 Speaker 1: I said, well, what I mean, a little ball into 875 00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,720 Speaker 1: this hole and you walk around like this and everything else. 876 00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,880 Speaker 1: So I know when they're setting me up like that, 877 00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:37,680 Speaker 1: that I'm gonna win, and because I could come back 878 00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,759 Speaker 1: with all of the good things that happened, you know 879 00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:49,799 Speaker 1: in this game. I'm serious and it's um. It's a 880 00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:59,479 Speaker 1: largely enchanted game that uh well, it does what it does, 881 00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:08,279 Speaker 1: and it's these um and sport generally. Um uh it's 882 00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:13,200 Speaker 1: oh boy, I'm inhibiting myself right now because you know, 883 00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:17,040 Speaker 1: my wife and I are very involved in Russian American 884 00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,520 Speaker 1: relations and we're living in this now as hell that's 885 00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:25,480 Speaker 1: perpetrated by Putin. I don't I don't want to go 886 00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:30,880 Speaker 1: down that road with you guys, but uh so, I 887 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:35,880 Speaker 1: often say it's too bad in Russia. They forgive me 888 00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:38,600 Speaker 1: for this, but that they don't play golf. You know. 889 00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:41,959 Speaker 1: It's uh, I get some of these guys out there 890 00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:45,680 Speaker 1: and out of these warhols that they live in. I mean, 891 00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:49,960 Speaker 1: it's been a a nation that has suffered enormously and 892 00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:56,200 Speaker 1: it's so huge, and it's produced this readiness to fight 893 00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:04,680 Speaker 1: and this monsters. I'm sorry to intervene with, but that, Um, 894 00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:08,960 Speaker 1: we've got to be thankful for these activities that we 895 00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:13,480 Speaker 1: do have that are life giving and healthy and God 896 00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:19,360 Speaker 1: bless golf give rise to this transcendence, these transcendent moments, 897 00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:26,040 Speaker 1: but we go beyond ourselves, thank God. Michael and Jeff 898 00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,239 Speaker 1: give me final thoughts for our guest on Uti for 899 00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:35,759 Speaker 1: with Michael Murphy here. Wow, this has just been a pleasure. Um, 900 00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,239 Speaker 1: I've enjoyed listening the whole time. This is fascinating. We 901 00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:40,040 Speaker 1: could do this all day. I think it's important. I 902 00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:44,560 Speaker 1: think of more. I mean, you wrote this book fifty 903 00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,320 Speaker 1: years ago. It should have been paid. I mean, everybody 904 00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:48,960 Speaker 1: loves it. But everybody loves it and then they go 905 00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,160 Speaker 1: off and don't really live it, you know, they get 906 00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:56,360 Speaker 1: distracted by everything else. And I think it's more relevant 907 00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:58,120 Speaker 1: now because, as I said, we're cutting it up into 908 00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:01,400 Speaker 1: so many small pieces and we'd of thing the point, Um, 909 00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,040 Speaker 1: all the holiday golf is just there. If a golf 910 00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:05,880 Speaker 1: psych and that's how we don't have to fought wols, 911 00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:07,759 Speaker 1: because we fought the wool with ourself every time we 912 00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:10,600 Speaker 1: play golf, and we learned about ourselves every time. And 913 00:57:10,640 --> 00:57:13,200 Speaker 1: I think, uh, it's just been fascinating. I've enjoyed the 914 00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:16,120 Speaker 1: whole thing. We can do this trial. Well, thank you 915 00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:20,600 Speaker 1: Allen for arranging this, and uh, Michael, I hope I 916 00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:22,760 Speaker 1: have many more opportunities to say this to you, but 917 00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,040 Speaker 1: I just want to say you're a hero to me, 918 00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:29,320 Speaker 1: and I'm incredibly grateful that you are the person you 919 00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:31,320 Speaker 1: are and that you've written down the words that you have. 920 00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:34,920 Speaker 1: You probably know I believe I have this right that 921 00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:41,240 Speaker 1: Gorbachov gave Reagan a driver made out of a nuclear missile, 922 00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,800 Speaker 1: but maybe someone gave it to Clinton. That the point 923 00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:48,320 Speaker 1: really is they should have just kept it. Uh. Uh. 924 00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:51,680 Speaker 1: If you ever cared to write a sort of sequel 925 00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:56,479 Speaker 1: about a mystical conversation between Hogan and Tiger, I think 926 00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:01,160 Speaker 1: people would eat it up. Uh. But thank you for 927 00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:04,720 Speaker 1: the example of of your life and and everything that 928 00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:10,240 Speaker 1: you've given us. Michael. Thank you God, that's generous words, 929 00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:15,280 Speaker 1: and thank you for all your great stuff about life 930 00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:21,240 Speaker 1: in this good green world. And anyway, and and Jeff, 931 00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:25,919 Speaker 1: thanks for those generous remarks. I I very very much 932 00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:31,680 Speaker 1: appreciate them a lot. Really well, I'm just gonna build 933 00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:34,520 Speaker 1: on what these other guys said. It's absolute pleasure talking 934 00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:38,320 Speaker 1: to you as always. Michael, Uh, congratulations fifty the anniversary 935 00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:42,200 Speaker 1: of golf in the Kingdom. What a run uh years old. 936 00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:44,720 Speaker 1: I think anyone who listens this podcast will know that 937 00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:50,160 Speaker 1: you haven't lost anything off your fastball. It's it's heroic 938 00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:54,840 Speaker 1: the life you continues to lead. So um, this has 939 00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:57,680 Speaker 1: been this has been a tremendous pleasure and honor. Thank 940 00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:00,439 Speaker 1: you for for rounding out our foursome here. We're gonna 941 00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:02,560 Speaker 1: we're gonna sign off on from this podcast, but I 942 00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,400 Speaker 1: know the conversation will continue for quite a long time 943 00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:08,400 Speaker 1: amongst all of us in different ways. So thanks everybody 944 00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:11,520 Speaker 1: for listening, and uh, we'll do this again soon. That's 945 00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:22,080 Speaker 1: the end. Mm hmmm, Oh my god. It's a dangerous 946 00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:22,640 Speaker 1: group here.