1 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:17,240 Speaker 1: I guess I grew up on an all day row. Hey, everybody, 2 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: welcome to episode one twenty six. Phil. Is that right? 3 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: We'll keep it in because this is this is real. 4 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: It's like reality rally TV. We got a good show 5 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: for you today. We got Miles Notlted, director of Fishing 6 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: from One Meat Eater. Say hy, Miles, hello, and then 7 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: fill up the engineer. I'm here to steal here. Okay, 8 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: sounds he sounds excited. I'm feeling pretty good right now. 9 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: I'm feeling like the world's opening back up like a 10 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: gentle flower does in springtime. And um, you like that? 11 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: He like? Does that make you feel good? Miles? He's filled. 12 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: N't like it? He's like I said, no, I mean, 13 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a little trite, but it's working. Yep. 14 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: That's the title of my autobiography. A little trite, but 15 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: it's worked. We got a great show for you today. 16 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: We've got Shane Mahoney, the great conservationist from Conservation Visions 17 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: also uh the founder and main driver of something you 18 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: hear about soon called the Wild Harvest Initiative, which is 19 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: tracking meat wild meat consumption and it's impact economically, culturally, 20 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: and all the other ways. It is significant to our society. 21 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: So you'll hear a lot from Shane Mahoney coming up. Um, 22 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,759 Speaker 1: he put me in a trance with his beautiful man. 23 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: I'm as I was just gonna say, I could listen 24 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,320 Speaker 1: to that guy talk about absolutely anything all day. I 25 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:52,639 Speaker 1: don't like to Yeah, you're talking about crochet or cross 26 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: stitch or I mean, I'm sure there's a difference between 27 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: those two. I don't know it, but if he was 28 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: explaining to me, I could probably learn the difference between 29 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: crochet and cross because I would want to hear it 30 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: from him anything. He was on fire today. He was 31 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: on fire, so you're gonna you're gonna hear him in 32 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: rare form. Um. He did text me later and let 33 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: me pull up and read some of the text. I 34 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: hope that's okay with hu, Shane, if you're listening. Um, 35 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: I didn't get get this your prior, but he sent 36 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: me some like motivational text and he said, um, are 37 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 1: you sure that was a keeper, referring to our interview, 38 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, I thought it was great. 39 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: And he said, if it wasn't legendary, then is it 40 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 1: worth it? I said, I think it was I think 41 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: it was worth it, of course, and he said, no, 42 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: I think it was great. But we can go further 43 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 1: great comfort zones, rattle establishments. Also, you refer to me 44 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 1: as a legend, right or wrong, You've set the bar. 45 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: So hopefully you all believe that this interview you're about 46 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: to hear a little bit later on his legendary. I 47 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: think it is. We talked about a lot of things. 48 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: We'll cover some of those here in this in this 49 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: opening segment, but I'm looking forward to that. Like as 50 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: Miles said, I always like just kind of picking up 51 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: his energy, getting his insights. I told him, you know 52 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: further in that text conversation that he just kind of 53 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: re energizes me in terms of how I see the world. 54 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: And and again him pushing me to rattle establishments and 55 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: go go further into these issues. Um, I will. I 56 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: will take that up and and drive harder each time. 57 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: So thanks thanks to Shade for that, and I'm looking 58 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: forward to But before we get to all of that, Phil, 59 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: you wanna keep going on the pooping in the woods thing? 60 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: You want to let that let that fall? Uh? Do 61 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: you have any new developments, any new emails that you 62 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: found pertinent or well, Miles, have you been tracking Phil's 63 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: first proof in the woods story? I have, I'm aware 64 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: of it. Um. Yeah, yeah, you and I shared on 65 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: the podcast during the Daily Quarantine Cast rather intimate pooping 66 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: story that that, Um, you have to go back and 67 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: listen to that. We're not gonna share it again. You're 68 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: not getting that gold. That magic again can only be 69 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: told one time and then we must put it away. 70 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: But we got a lot of emails about the poop story, 71 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: and there's nothing I can do. I don't want to 72 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: leave the listeners hanging. Phil's first crap seems to be 73 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 1: seems to have captivated the nation. Um, how do you 74 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: feel about that? Phil? I was gonna ask that same question. 75 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: You know, I'm just club glad. I can be like 76 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: a great kind of I don't know what's equalizers not 77 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: the right word, but I'm just bringing people together. You know, 78 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: you're not alone. Um, and I found out that I'm 79 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: not alone. So that's it's comforting. It's just it. Yeah, 80 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: it's good. Many dogs eat human feces, as we've learned, 81 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: and many people are realizing through Phil, as we talked 82 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: about last week. In the week prior that, well, I 83 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: haven't never crapped in the woods. I didn't know that. 84 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 1: I hadn't thought about that, not me personally, but most 85 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,679 Speaker 1: of the emails are saying they've had a revelatory moment 86 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: thanks to Phil, that they too had never crapped in 87 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 1: the woods before. And so I'd like to say there's 88 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: a ten percent increase in crap in the woods as 89 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: we speak. So there's no way for me to know that. 90 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: We will probably use some of the extra budget we 91 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,679 Speaker 1: have here to commission a report. But until that time, 92 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: we just have emails. And one such email came from 93 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: Jeremy Aaron Uh. It is entitled pooping for Survival and 94 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: he it's a long email, but um he wrote this 95 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: not probably having yet heard your actual story. He said, 96 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: a quick message for Phil, disregard all the external pressure 97 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: to take your first deuce outdoors. Much like feeling the 98 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 1: warm embrace of a good woman for the first time. 99 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: It will happen when the time is right. So he 100 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: didn't know that. He didn't know that you had taken 101 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: a crap, but he he goes on to talk about 102 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: his time and what is called the s e r 103 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: E School or Survive Evasion Resistance and escape, and that 104 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: they would send their folks on a field exercise with 105 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: no toilet paper. He says this, Uh, they send them out, 106 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: they say, go survive on an approved list of items. 107 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: Nary a toilet paper is on the list. He says. Um, 108 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: for some this is not an issue. The stress of 109 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: the course can cause the bowels of many to stop 110 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: up quicker than your old pal, Steve, going off topic 111 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: in an interview for the And you know, as an 112 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: a side, TC has become a safe place to rip 113 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: on Ronelle at this point. Uh, Steve, like Phil, do 114 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: you feel like that's good for our jobs? Or should 115 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: we stop doing that? I would say stop please, I 116 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: quite I quite enjoy my job. Yeah, me too, Maybe 117 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 1: we should. You know, Steve and Ella, being the great 118 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: probably the greatest living hunter, would understand the need for comedy. 119 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: You know. Also, you know, just a good looking guy, 120 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: full head of hair, I mean, beautiful children, beautiful family, 121 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: hot tub pool whatever, I mean, at least two cars 122 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: um um. Wonderful dude. Anyway, Aaron Jeremy continues on. For others, 123 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: nature still cause calls, whether you're being hunted by the 124 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: steely eyed Cadre or not. So one has to take 125 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: a crap, but you have no tp what to do. 126 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: The instructures advise against using foliage for ship tickets, too 127 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: many poisonous plants have been used before. Socks are crucial 128 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: for feet, so that's a no go. They forbid us 129 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: from using the cameo pants and blouse they give us, 130 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: so naturally undershirts fall victim to our bodily functions. Knives 131 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: come out, shirts are cut, and buttholes are cleaned. This 132 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: method actually provides a good indicator of who had to 133 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: crap in the woods and how much. When we get 134 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: back to base and turn in our issued gear, you'll 135 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: see many students missing a sleeve off their T shirt. 136 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: I myself have turned my shirt into a tank top. 137 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: And then there was one student in my class missing 138 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: both sleeves and was now wearing a crop top that 139 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: stopped just below his nipples. That, my friend, is in 140 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: an inorminate amount of crapping. But hey, you do what 141 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: you gotta do. We go ahead, No, no, please finish. 142 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: We in the service. No sacrifices will be made by use. 143 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: But recruit recruiter never told us our undershirts would be 144 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: sacrificed as well, So Phil should you go on a 145 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: hike and forget your ship tickets, remember this hot tip. 146 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: I'm gonna build on that. I got another hot tip 147 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,320 Speaker 1: for for Phil or the listeners, or whoever cares. This 148 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: is uh specific to certain areas. It's very helpful where 149 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: we happen to live. It's not going to help you 150 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: out everywhere. But river rocks are a very very good 151 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: tool for cleaning yourself up and and obviously the in 152 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: an optimal situation there actually is a river and a 153 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: water source there that that's even better. But where we live, 154 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: river rocks are spread far, far far from any water source. 155 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: You can find them all over the place. The key 156 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: is they're very smooth, but they have a lot of 157 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: surface areas, so they're not gonna They're not gonna injure you. 158 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: There are any sharp points that you're gonna do damage 159 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: to yourself on, but they tend to be pretty well pocked, 160 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: have a lot of surface area, do a great job 161 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 1: of cleaning you up, and no chance of you know, poison, ivy, 162 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: or any other mistake. In terms of pick and foliage 163 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: of the day, you want to choose, Choose the ones 164 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: that are closest, that have just been covered in water. 165 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 1: They just the water has receded or has expelled them somehow, 166 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: and they've been a little slick. Johnny Vincent talked about 167 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,719 Speaker 1: this a couple of weeks ago, so well, that's as 168 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: one of the many things he does. But agreed, agreed, Phil, 169 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: How you feeling about that email? They keep coming in? 170 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: I just thought that one was particularly well done. That's good. 171 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: The rocks, the shirts, it's enlightening. I'll make sure to 172 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,959 Speaker 1: wear some cheap disposable te yards every time I get 173 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: out there. Now, I mean I do have a gear 174 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: idea for th HC. Now it was just a crop 175 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: top nipple shirt or like maybe just one. It's one 176 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 1: that has like perforated lines on it. Oh like it 177 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: has yet it has, and they could have looked like 178 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: three ply like have like a nice Charman cooshion. Look 179 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,559 Speaker 1: to it. All right, it will say my shitty th 180 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: HC shirt on it, and then yeah, that's good. I 181 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: mean that's another way to keep keep our jobs. All right, Well, 182 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: we're gonna leave that behind. Um Please, if you haven't 183 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: listened to Miles and Eyes ship story, go back into 184 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: the quarantine cast and and and look for that because 185 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: it's a necessary function of our relationship. Um, we got 186 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: we got here. This is one that, like I, I 187 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: hesitate to even read it because I don't know I 188 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,959 Speaker 1: have bird feeders, but I don't know much about the subject. 189 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: But I will read it because I think it's interesting. 190 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: David Reid writes in Hi, Ben, I know this may 191 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: be a little out of your expertise, but I know 192 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: how much you love ethics questions, smiley face emoji or whatever. 193 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 1: Our bird feeders ethical are We are artificially propping up 194 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:20,560 Speaker 1: a population that couldn't sustain itself without America having bird feeders? 195 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 1: Is it okay to artificially prop up a population to 196 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: make up for all the other ill effects we have 197 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: had on their populations? I love your show, David Reid. Um, Miles, 198 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: what do you think a buddy? Have you ever thought? 199 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: I have not thought about that in that particular context. 200 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: The way I've always wondered about bird feeders as being 201 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: an unnatural food source has to do with predators in 202 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: the sense of like, at least I will admit this 203 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: my mother. My mother likes cats. Okay, I'm sorry, Cal, 204 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: but it's true. I was gonna say, we need Callahan 205 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: for this but my my mom eventually got rid of 206 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: her bird feeder because she felt so guilty at the 207 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: number of songbirds that her cats would just pick off 208 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: because they would lie in ambush beneath or near that 209 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: bird feeder, right, and the seed falls to the ground 210 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,079 Speaker 1: and the birds go down after it, and that cat 211 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: would just be all over him, I mean, just just pounce. 212 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: So so I think in that sense, you know, if 213 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: there are cats around, bird feeders can be a little 214 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: bit of a problem. Um. But it terms I don't 215 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: want to I don't want to skimp on the actual 216 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: question here, because I think it's an interesting one. I'd 217 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: have to do a little bit more research. But having 218 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: really no actual valid scientific information, I would say, I 219 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: think it's fine. Birds need food. They get a long 220 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: way to go. David's right. In my research, Americans make 221 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: bird feeding at their homes a regular habit. Um. So 222 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: that's stuff four out of ten of us a rocking 223 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: that I have some bird feeders. I haven't thought about this. Um. 224 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,359 Speaker 1: I grew up around my my parents always had hummingbird 225 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: feeders and and various specifical bird features on our porch, 226 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: so it just became a way, um, you know, as 227 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: you would imagine with any unnatural food source. They you know, 228 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:12,959 Speaker 1: all the research I did, they have contribute to outbreaks. 229 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: Lots of different viruses and diseases. Housefinch eye disease is 230 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: one of them. Don't ask me to explain what that is. 231 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: It sounds interesting. Um, there's other things in terms of 232 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: migration patterns and winter migration that are interrupted do this. 233 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: So I imagine that any unnatural food source changes behavior 234 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: patterns UM, mostly in a negative way, other than keeping 235 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: birds alive that otherwise wouldn't have any food. Um. And 236 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 1: so the other I went in search of some tips 237 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 1: for David, even though I don't even know why I 238 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: were talking about this on this show, but I just 239 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: felt compelled to help David out. UM. Safe bird feeding 240 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: includes completely scrubbing out your bird feeder ten like a 241 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: couple of times a year, or with non chlorinated bleach 242 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: solution that'll help keep that bacteria out of there. UM. 243 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: Research the favorite seed for the bird you want to 244 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: get in there. That way, you don't attract a bunch 245 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,240 Speaker 1: of different species, much like a hummingbird feeder just kind 246 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: of attracts the hummingbird. And then look at feeder styles 247 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: where to hang him, what to do with them? Be 248 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: logical about that, but think twice, as our good friend 249 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: Cal would probably say. Um, a lot of songbirds are 250 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: here dying from the plague of the feline variety. As 251 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: Miles explained, so if I have, if Phil, if you 252 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: have a cow sound bite about cats, could you put 253 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: that in right here? Do we have one? It shouldn't 254 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: be too hard to find one. He's been. It's been 255 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: a hot topic on this podcast. How does he not 256 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: get more hate over there at cows? We can review 257 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: for being anti cat? Cat people love cats. They love 258 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: Cal too. It's true they're willing to overlook that because 259 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 1: they're they're just so fond of him. All well, that's 260 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: that's fine. We'll move on from that. Like I said, 261 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: I don't really have a whole lot of than I 262 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: wanted to help David Addy. He seemed desperate to know. Um, 263 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: this is one that this next email, in our last 264 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: email love this little segment will be one that I 265 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: think Miles can definitely comment on because we produce our 266 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: own shows. He produces dast Boat along with Can we 267 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: talk about the Ice Ice Tour? Here? Is that we 268 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: talked about it on the Mediator podcast. So I think 269 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: we're safe here. I think we're safe here. Hey, shout 270 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: out to Steven Now a great guy, favorite people in 271 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: the world. Really classy dresser as well. Have you noticed that, 272 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: I mean snappy. He's really a trend setter. Those hoodies, 273 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 1: same pair of pants, four days a week. It's great. 274 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: That's good. Um, what do we do in terms of 275 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: filming television programs? During COVID nineteen, Scott Nespitt wrote in 276 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: and he he got this question is mind after listen 277 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: to my conversation with Donnie Vincent. He says certain Hounting 278 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: celebrities and social media seem to be taking liberties with 279 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: their quote unquote job to travel the States to hunt, 280 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: claiming it is quote unquote work. An example of this 281 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: is blank, we won't say your name. She has traveled 282 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: from Florida, He certainly did. She has traveled from Florida 283 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: to Georgia, to Kansas, to Wyoming to Montana chasing turkeys. 284 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: I am only familiar with Montana travel restrictions as we 285 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: planned to be chasing turkeys ourselves again this year in 286 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: the Great State. So I made a comment to her, 287 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: which I later deleted for various reasons, probably good call. 288 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: Asking if she followed the fourteen day quarantine in Montana, 289 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: she stated it was a suggestion and needed and it 290 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: ended April, which was incorrect as the governor extended it. 291 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: But anyway. She also said she was exempted because of 292 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: the work exemption and she was social social distancing in 293 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: her camper. What what kind of images this portraying for 294 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: the hunting community as a whole, along with a ton 295 00:16:55,240 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: of other questions, Scott um Miles, you wanna talk about 296 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: how we're kind of handling it, or how you're handling it, 297 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: or how we're trying to make this all work. Yeah, 298 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that this is a valid concern 299 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: in question, and I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not 300 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: gonna use this opportunity to burn anybody or attack anybody. 301 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: I think all I can do is speak for what 302 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: we're doing, and we are keeping pretty close to home. 303 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: We're not leaving the state, we're following social distancing, we're 304 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: driving separately when we go out and do these things. 305 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: But I also understand that it's it's very very difficult 306 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 1: and very very complicated to try and have any kind 307 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: of a hunting or fishing lifestyle at this point unless 308 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: you're really fortunate and you have opportunities out your back door, 309 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 1: which I do. So I count myself in a very 310 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: very narrow percentage people who are really, really, really lucky. Um, 311 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: the turkey I killed this year, I was at the 312 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: desk back at work by thirty that morning because I 313 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: didn't go very far from home. All the fishing I've 314 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: been doing has been within an hour or so of home. 315 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 1: So I think that everybody's got to figure out what 316 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: makes the most sense for them and and what they 317 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 1: can live with and feel good about. But I also 318 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: think that we do have somewhat of a responsibility. I 319 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 1: personally think that we have a responsibility to stay as 320 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: close to home as we can and not expose anybody unnecessarily. Yeah, 321 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: we talked about that. We talked about with Michael hunt 322 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: Sucker during the quarantine cast where he was out running 323 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: around as these kind of restrictions were starting to take 324 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: shape and there was a lot of unknowns. Um Miles 325 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: has been running for us at the media dot Com. 326 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 1: He has been running our COVID nineteen Changes in Restrictions page, 327 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: um Update and even really updating that, if not daily, 328 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: a couple of times a week, right, Yeah, I mean 329 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 1: anytime anything comes through. So lately there hasn't been a 330 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 1: lot of news. No one's made any major changes in 331 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: about a week at the state level. But for a 332 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: while there it was multiple times a day that we 333 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: were having to update that. Yeah, lots of fluidity in 334 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: the situation, which makes it even more confusing as to 335 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: what what you're they do. And and again this unnamed 336 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 1: you know TV show social media person there that Scott mentioned, Hey, 337 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: it's hard. That's her her living, uh supposedly and from 338 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 1: all tense purposes. And she's in a camper driving around, 339 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: so it's it's hard. But as as Joe Sihmelli wrote 340 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: and a piece for us, you know, just don't you 341 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: have to understand the responsibility to the hunting community, to 342 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: the angling community. You don't want to be the one 343 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: to cause cause trouble. You don't want to be the 344 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: one um to be spreading this virus around and be 345 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:40,199 Speaker 1: the example made by some politician too to restrict access 346 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: to anything. And yes, we may kind of be, as 347 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: you mentioned, Miles, coming out of this to some extent 348 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: where there is light at the end of the tunnel, 349 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: But we don't know that for sure. It could be 350 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: a train, we might be screwed. So um, we still 351 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: have to just follow those those principles. I think the 352 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: best advice I can give it to all hunters and 353 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: anglers out there who rich and to get out and 354 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 1: are itching to do any travel particularly, is before you 355 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: go anywhere do anything, check in with the management agency 356 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: where you're going and see what they're asking you to do, 357 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: see what they're recommending, and follow those recommendations to the letter. 358 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: It's it's as you were saying, Ben, it's really fluid. 359 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: These things are changing very quickly. We can't even keep 360 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: up with it. I'm spending more of my time than 361 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 1: I would like to trying to run down what's changing where. 362 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: But it's it's very region region specific, and all of 363 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: it is is different day to day. So if you're 364 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 1: gonna go anywhere you want a hunter fish, just check 365 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,959 Speaker 1: in with the management agency responsible for that area and 366 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: and see what they recommend. Yeah, that's a the most 367 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: respectful way to do it. People have asked a lot 368 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: of people are written in over a dozen emails of 369 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 1: people asking these questions like what do I do? How 370 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: do I approach this is there a way of best 371 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: practice way to go hunt and fish? And um, part 372 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: of me wants to say, sure, here's exactly what to do. 373 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: But most of the time I'm like, hey, in general 374 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: social distancing, check the rules and regulations. Make that phone 375 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: call that Myles has mentioned. But you know, there's gonna 376 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: be a lot of unknowns, and so we at meat. Either. 377 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: All of us have been kind of airing on the 378 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: side of caution and been been doing things in a 379 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 1: way that, um, we hope reflects best on our community 380 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: and that we care about others and beyond that, it's 381 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: hard to say. So, Phil, take us home with this 382 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: very serious topic. Give us your expert opinion. Please, Yeah 383 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: sounds good, Ben, Thanks alright, Moving on, Phil, Philly engineer 384 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: always comes through. He's like he just it's like a 385 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: comfort blanket. You are over there, that's right. I love you, 386 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 1: buddy so much. You can't even throw things at you 387 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,959 Speaker 1: anymore because we're not even the same Room's baseball in 388 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: his hand. I see that he wants to throw that 389 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 1: hardy Randy Johnson over there is that people know who 390 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: that isn't anymore? The big unit. Oh hell yeah. I 391 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: grew up a Marriners fan. So speaking, you're speaking my 392 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 1: language now, Ben a Marriners fan. I can't even remember 393 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,160 Speaker 1: where did you even grow up? Phil And I don't 394 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: even I haven't put that my memory bank. I don't, 395 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: I don't want. I grew up in Washington State, little 396 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: city called Vancouver. Oh that makes sense, Yeah, yeah, I 397 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: know I probably knew that at some point. Um, anybody 398 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: remember the exploding pigeon. If you don't go on YouTube, 399 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: do yourself a favorite. Right now, all of you who 400 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: don't know what I'm talking about, going to YouTube and 401 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: look up Brandy Johnson Exploding Pigeon. I'm sure you'll find it. Yeah, 402 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: I mean, there is no way to avoid. That's why 403 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: the Internet was created to preserve things like that. I mean. Yeah, 404 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: And while you're at it, check out the video of 405 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: Fabio getting hit by a bird when he's on a 406 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:07,239 Speaker 1: roller coaster. That one also, there's Yeah, can we just 407 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: list things that you have to see? David after Dennis 408 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: who knows whatever? Um, all right, well we got we 409 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: got a very serious We gotta get serious because Shane 410 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: Mahoney is coming up and we need to start miles. 411 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: You need to really turn up the voice, man, you 412 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 1: need to start giving us some soft, sweet tones to 413 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: get us ready for old Shane Mahoney. I mean, it's 414 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: it's hard to lay the groundwork for hard to leave 415 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 1: the tracks for a train that's gonna roll that smoothly 416 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: and and penetrate that deeply into your ear holes. But 417 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure Shane has all kinds of interesting 418 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: things to say. He always does, and I'm looking forward 419 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: to it. It's like I said, it is, Um, it's 420 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: a great one. No, nothing can can overhype it, I 421 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: think because he just just hearing him work through some 422 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 1: of the things we often talk about in the show 423 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: is extremely valuable. But before we get to that, there's 424 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: a couple of things I want to touch on. Help 425 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 1: kind of set up a lot of what we talked 426 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: about here. Um a lot of emails on this subject, 427 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: trying to work this out in my own head, So 428 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: I appreciate the help Miles and of course phil Um. 429 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: At what point during the apocalypse do game laws go 430 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: out the door? Like, at what point in the breakdown 431 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 1: of society do we begin to get rid of our 432 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: ideals around game laws. I think that this is a 433 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: flawed question to start with. Let me just let me 434 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: just throw this out because I think, and and maybe 435 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, but I think anybody who's asking this question 436 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 1: is just looking for an excuse to break game laws, 437 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: Like anybody who's who's who's digging through this and like 438 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 1: when do I get to go out and shoot that 439 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: animal that I'm not allowed to shoot right now? Like 440 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: I think that you were at this point. The fact 441 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: that your brain goes there tells me that you already 442 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: want to do this, and that you're hoping or maybe 443 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: just wondering how the excuse is going to present itself. 444 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: So to me, the question in and of itself, it's 445 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: not okay, it's problematic. It says some things that aren't 446 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 1: that great. All right, Well, we're gone ahead and read 447 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: the list of email names who have written this exact question. 448 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: It's going to take about forty five minutes to read 449 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: all their names and to damn them. You know. I 450 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 1: will say this, Miles though, as I've thought in the 451 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: in the past about hunting ethics and and fishing ethics 452 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 1: the same, um, we there's something in us, not all 453 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: of us, but the vast majority of us that like 454 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 1: when the gloves come off in terms of like Ferrell 455 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,159 Speaker 1: hogs or these ideas that. I mean, I lived in 456 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: Texas for a long time. I've never seen someone sadly 457 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: shooting pigs from a helicopter with an a R fifteen. 458 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: So I just think there's something about this where, you know, 459 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: we're so constrained and sometimes people want to kind of 460 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: let that loose. Now that maybe apples to oranges to 461 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: the exact question, but but I think that's what's kind 462 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: of poking at people here. And also that supply chains 463 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: are are an issue for um, you know, store store 464 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: bought meat and and other supplies of meat. So all 465 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,719 Speaker 1: that together kind of mixes together and becomes this weird 466 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: question that so many people are asking. They're phrasing it 467 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 1: in a lot of different ways, but I think what 468 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: they're getting at is what I just asked. So it's 469 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: interesting to think of that's for sure. See and and 470 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: maybe I just think negatively about humanity. I'm a cynical bastard, 471 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: which is very possible, but it makes me think of 472 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 1: the fact that out my out my window of my office, 473 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: just about any time I can look out into an 474 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: aspen grove out there and see deer and sometimes there 475 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: are some really nice bucks that walk within twenty yards 476 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: of my back deck that I could very easily kill 477 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: with a bow. It would be terribly illegal for me 478 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: to do that, right for so many reasons. One, that's 479 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: not my land too, I'm within city limits. You can't 480 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: kill those deer. Three, it's probably not in season. But 481 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: do I stand out on that deck and think about 482 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: putting an arrow through those bucks when they walk by? Yes, 483 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: I absolutely do, right, And and I think many people 484 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: have had a similar experience going through Mammoth Hot Springs 485 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: in Yellowstone and looking at the size of some of 486 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 1: those bull elk that wander around and wondering, man, what 487 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: if I was allowed to shoot one of those? Right? 488 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: And So I think that experiences like this one give 489 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: you a moment to ponder, like when when does that 490 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: thread snap? When is it actually okay for me to 491 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: do those things that I've kind of guiltily fantasized about 492 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: for years now. Yeah, yeah for me, Like it's it's 493 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: that idea of supply chains, like says I. We were 494 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: talking with Jesse Griffis last week and we've talked about 495 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: this on the podcast A good a good bit about 496 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: the you know, the length of supply chains. Shane mentions 497 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: this in in the interview. You're about to hear like 498 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 1: how long we've allowed our supply chains to get And 499 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: a part of hunting and gardening and the local for 500 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: movement is kind of shortening that supply chain so there's 501 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: less links to break, right and hunting is the ultimate 502 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: way to to do that. And in terms of of 503 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: you know Shane Mahoney and his where he is with 504 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: the North American model the wildlife conservation, which of course 505 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 1: we talk about a lot in this because he was 506 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: one of the first I guess you could call he 507 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,200 Speaker 1: was one of the originators of the idea than the 508 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: first person to really popularize and marketed to stay game agencies. 509 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: Is that there there's upholding of the public trust within 510 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: that model, and these we have these governmental agencies that 511 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: are proxy managers of our own supply chain, the supply 512 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: chain of wild animals and wild places and things where 513 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: we can get our food um and so we have 514 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: to kind of maintain the idea of that public trust 515 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: and the idea of those governmental agencies kind of upholding 516 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: our supply chain, which is the health of our wildlife 517 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: population and some fisheries and things like that. So I 518 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: they answer that question, like, what point during the apocalypse 519 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: do we just start shooting ship? You know, not until 520 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: there is not until the government falls, I guess. Yeah. 521 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: I mean, let's get real, let's get real sci fi 522 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: on you. But not until there isn't a game agency 523 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: to weigh in on the situation. You have to localize 524 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: game management and turned back into a more tribal system. 525 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: Not until that, And that's a long ways off, hopefully. 526 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: I just feel like an idiot talking like this, But 527 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: that's that's the question a lot of people are asking. No. 528 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: I know, I know that we keep getting that question. 529 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: We get it to a lot of different channels. Uh, 530 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: all and often, and and again. I could be just 531 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: terrible human, but my sense is that it's more rooted 532 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: in that covetous desire that I was describing than any 533 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: real sense of like, man, this is coming. But is 534 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: it possible that we could get to a point where 535 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: game management agencies no longer exist because the government has showered? Yeah, 536 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: that is possible. That we're not anywhere near that, and 537 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: I don't foresee that coming anytime soon. So I don't 538 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: think I think we're jumping ahead in the conversation pretty far. 539 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: I think the next step in the conversation would really be, like, hey, 540 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: as all these people start thinking more about their meat 541 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: supply chain and worrying about it, how many more people 542 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: are gonna get into hunting next fall? And and do 543 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: we need to think about how many tags we allocated 544 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: a result of that potential increase in participation. That to 545 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: me would be the next logical conversation. But it's not 546 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: nearly as sexy or interesting or salacious as when do 547 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: I get to shoot anything? Yes, and you know I haven't. 548 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: I haven't thought about this way, but I would be 549 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: so much chatter about this that I've kind of forced 550 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: myself to to to travel here. Um, you know, and 551 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: if you if you read World War Z or watch 552 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: the movie, Um, there's a you know, there's a quote 553 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: in there. I'm sure I'll butcher it. But in terms 554 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: of you don't see these things coming until they're here, 555 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: you know, you don't see it. You don't sit around 556 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: waiting for a pandemic, but it hitching until it hitch 557 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: in the face. And so there is some in terms 558 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: of um, this exploration, there's some value. But thanks everybody 559 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: for writing in miles thinks you're all insane, not insane 560 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: selfish bastards. I think you're just like me. You're you're 561 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: actually a selfish, evil human and you mask it because 562 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: you want to be a good person. Phil, you seem despondent. Yeah, 563 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: are you okay? I'm doing great now. I'm just soaking 564 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: it in. I'm pretty sure he's just bored with everything 565 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: we have to say right now. I always ask Phil 566 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: to grade the show when we're done. I don't know. 567 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: The look on your face that you just had while 568 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: Myles and I were talking was one of complete disgust 569 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: and just why how did I get here in my life? No, 570 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: my mind is wandering. Um, but what are you thinking about? Man? 571 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: Just open up. It's a safe place. You're in the 572 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 1: trust tree. Yeah, I just think I'm just thinking about 573 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 1: you know. I still I gotta finish. I gotta catch 574 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: up on Better Call Saul. That's it. It would be 575 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 1: more interesting than this conversation anything on television. No, listen, 576 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: I know I know when to open my mouth. I 577 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: mean when you when to keep it shut. It's when 578 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: I have no I'm completely out of my uh my, 579 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: you know what I have knowledge to talk about and 580 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: this is one of those topics. I was just listening 581 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: it and then calls me out and makes me look 582 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: like a fool. Well, I won't stand for it anymore. 583 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: Finally we've broken you, suggression will not stand man. Come on, man, 584 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: all right, well you know to to the point you 585 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: were making miles to completely leave, fill back out of 586 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: the conversation, to return to our two person conversation here. 587 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: There's been a rise in hunting numbers. Um, they're not 588 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: firm numbers. We don't really we can we don't. There's 589 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: not an enough time has passed here in the spring 590 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: season for us to really dive into what all this means. 591 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: But it's a little more than anecdotes. Um, you know 592 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 1: a couple of things that I know you and I 593 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: have talked abouts a little bit. But there's been six 594 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: rise in turkey permit sales from late March through early May. 595 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: UM in the state of New York, which is one 596 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: of the hardest hit states with COVID nineteen and that 597 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: and that's huge over that six increases over that same 598 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: five week period from last year. That's that's big time, UM, 599 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: big time numbers. Thousands of more turkey hunters in the Woods, 600 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: Indiana saw up in turkey license sales during the first 601 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 1: week of the season. Turkey hunter numbers and wildlife management 602 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: areas in Georgia increased forty seven seven percent this year 603 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: From um that doesn't paint a full picture, doesn't even 604 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: come close. It's a tiny corner of it. But I 605 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: haven't seen any data or anything to suggest that that 606 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: this that doesn't signify the overall trend. Do you agree 607 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,839 Speaker 1: with that? Yeah, I think I've seen some some other 608 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:18,439 Speaker 1: data that show there's less travel hunting going on. So 609 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,879 Speaker 1: who knows how this all shakes out. Right, We're too 610 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: too early to say, but I think I think initially 611 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: an anecdotally, we can say that there are more people 612 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 1: interested in hunting close to home and fewer people who 613 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: are able to travel to hunt, and how that balances 614 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: out is going to be interesting. I think it It 615 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: would be logical to suggest that those high population areas 616 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: that you're talking about, those states like New York and 617 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania and New Jersey might see serious spikes in hunting 618 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: because a people are worried about where their food might 619 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: be coming from, and be the people who normally may 620 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: have gone somewhere else to do their hunting. All of 621 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: a sudden, they're staying home. It'll be interesting to see 622 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:02,280 Speaker 1: how it impacts places that are more destination hunts out west, 623 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,479 Speaker 1: for example, because I really don't think we have enough 624 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: to go off of their Yeah, there was a concern, 625 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: you know, and i'd probably a very valid concern from 626 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 1: Montana f WP that you know, non resident applications would 627 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: go way down during this time because the application season 628 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: ended from Elkan Deer right in the middle of like 629 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: the height of our you know, pandemic and lockdown and 630 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: our economy collapsing. So that's that was a huge concern 631 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: for them, you know that that application part of it. 632 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: But then I know the increase in resident hunting or 633 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: hunting licenses, and as you say, was there's no way 634 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 1: to know if they are brand new hunters or hunters 635 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 1: that just had bought a license in a couple of years, 636 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: or it was just more resident hunters buying licenses and 637 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 1: less non resident hunters and how that mix came to be. 638 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,120 Speaker 1: But we're certainly starting to come into some line of 639 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: site as to what's happening here, and it seems like 640 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: um as it would be obvious that dynam Amic is changing, 641 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: and it's changing for the positive in terms of the 642 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: number of people buying licenses and go on hunting overall. 643 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: Um And so it's interesting. We talked a little bit, 644 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,800 Speaker 1: you know, I asked this question to to Shane Mahoney 645 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 1: in terms of I've read other reports this is way less, 646 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: way less data driven, but that veganism is on the rise. 647 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: So there was two reports that came out that talked 648 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: about that in some surveys with folks. So like, the 649 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,760 Speaker 1: idea of veganism is on the rise, consumption of plant 650 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 1: based meat is on the rise, and hunting transversely or 651 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 1: conversely is on the rise as well. So what do 652 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: you make all that? We talked to Shane about that, 653 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: But I love to hear Miles what you say. I'm 654 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: gonna guess Shane and I have similar perspectives, But I 655 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: would say I think people are more and more interested 656 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: in understanding better where their food comes from and having 657 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: being knowledgeable about the journey that their food goes on 658 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: from wherever it started to when they eat it. I 659 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: think most of the vegans that I've ever talked to 660 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: are very very thoughtful about what they consume and how 661 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 1: they consume it. And what its impacts are. Um. I 662 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:09,760 Speaker 1: think that's true for a lot of hunters as well, 663 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: and probably for a lot of the new hunters are 664 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:16,640 Speaker 1: coming in maybe because they're not so secure in our 665 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: food systems at this point. They recognize that they're not infallible, 666 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 1: not that we've seen any No one's starving as a 667 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,720 Speaker 1: result of food shortage at this point, let's be really 668 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 1: clear about that. And they're from what I can tell, 669 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: they're that's not on the horizon. But I think it's 670 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 1: got people considering more closely how they food gets from 671 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: starting point to consumption. Uh. And so to me, veganism 672 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: and hunting would be parallel, sort of opposite sides of 673 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 1: the same coin there, to use a trade phrase. There 674 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: you go, open me too. Um. But they they're not 675 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 1: that far off. I think that those are much closer 676 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,320 Speaker 1: than just sort of the zombie like consumption of whatever 677 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 1: falls in front of you because someone put it there. Yeah, 678 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: there's a lot of things. I've said this before, and 679 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: we talked about this, and I think it's an important 680 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: idea that this this pandemic, while awful, and you know, 681 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,359 Speaker 1: it hasn't touched everybody, but it's touched most of us 682 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: in some way. Um, it's very much a bridge to 683 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: some of this, you know, these other conversations about apocalyptic 684 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 1: times or you know, society really crumbling. It's it's just 685 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,720 Speaker 1: like a a relatively and not in terms of the deaths, 686 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: but in terms of what we're talking about here, um, 687 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 1: supply chains and the structure our society and the fragility 688 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 1: of those things. In terms of this, it's a bridge. 689 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: It's it's letting us kind of feel some of that fear, 690 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 1: connect with it, but also still be able to get 691 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,720 Speaker 1: toilet paper if we needed, but also see some empty 692 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 1: shelves and feel that tinge of fear and anxiety that, 693 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: while real, isn't exactly as impactful as it might seem 694 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: at the end of the day. UM. And you know, 695 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: there's been an uptiket people watching pandemic movies on Netflix 696 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 1: and other places. I've read a report on that, UM, 697 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: And I think people will watch those movies now and 698 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,959 Speaker 1: they feel a little extra you know, the heart beats 699 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 1: a little bit harder. They see some parallels to what 700 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:14,879 Speaker 1: we've seen during this and it's just like I said, 701 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 1: it's just a proximity feels a little bit closer to 702 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:23,839 Speaker 1: those realities. Um, Phil, please please wait in have you 703 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 1: He's shaking his head telling me to go away. UM, 704 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 1: serious question, Phil, if you have yours, If your family 705 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: seen anything different over there as far as like how 706 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,959 Speaker 1: you consume or what you're worried about you talked about 707 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 1: with your wife? Uh, you know no, because just like 708 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: Myles said, there hasn't. I mean, at least from where 709 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: we are, there hasn't really been a noticeable change in 710 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: um kind of what's on the store shelves or um 711 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:56,360 Speaker 1: or anything like that. I mean, you know, there was 712 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: that crazy toilet paper saw wipe shortage when this started. 713 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: But that's you know, every time I've gone to the 714 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,000 Speaker 1: grocery store, I haven't you know, there's always chicken, there's 715 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 1: always beef, there's always pork, there's all you know. I 716 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: haven't I haven't seen a completely empty shelf of steaks 717 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,719 Speaker 1: and been like, oh I should go hunting. Um that 718 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:22,200 Speaker 1: you know, what was your number? Two point five? Three 719 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:27,319 Speaker 1: point five? It was two point five's I would also 720 00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:29,839 Speaker 1: like to I'm gonna update my score quick aside here 721 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,759 Speaker 1: it's it's I'm at a four now. Yeah, I've been 722 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 1: hearing I've been hearing all these turkey hunting stories and 723 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 1: I I'm I'm I'm feeling the poll a little bit harder. 724 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: All right, Okay, by the time we get you out there, 725 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:45,399 Speaker 1: it'll be like you'll be at least being a five. Yeah, 726 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 1: we'll see about that. But now, I mean, I haven't 727 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: the chain of um of consumption has not really been 728 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: altered or broken, at least in my household yet now, 729 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,840 Speaker 1: and I think I think we can pull you well 730 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 1: over into the five range, probably beyond if if if 731 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 1: I could serve you some of the turkey breast I 732 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 1: made this weekend off of off of, specifically off of 733 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,439 Speaker 1: Cal's recommendation, I'm wouna be honest, uh used the Brian 734 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,040 Speaker 1: out of the Media cookbook and a couple of tips 735 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: from Cal and trusting it and smoking it. My only 736 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: my only regret is that I can't travel out of 737 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: my district to kill more turkeys because I've made the 738 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:28,879 Speaker 1: mistake of feeding some of it to my son and 739 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:30,920 Speaker 1: then it was all gone and I'm gonna run out 740 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 1: of turkey in like five minutes. It's really bumming me out. 741 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:36,720 Speaker 1: So I'm just saying, Phil, if you could get ahold 742 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 1: of some of that, I think it might put you 743 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: over the top. Uh, you know, I'm willing to be 744 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,880 Speaker 1: a participant in this experiment. Yeah, I got it. And 745 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: there's so many, so many failures I've had this spring 746 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 1: in terms of turkeys and taking phil and I must admit, 747 00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 1: I mean we should we just do a Notzo sharp 748 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: moment on just mine like the last two months of 749 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: my life in terms of getting outside and doing things 750 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 1: that are actually productive in terms of bringing home meat. Um, 751 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: but that's for another show, hopefully another time. Myles. I 752 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,879 Speaker 1: got one last thing before we get to Shane mohoney. Um, 753 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: I asked him this question. It was kind of in 754 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:17,720 Speaker 1: the moment question during the conversation, So in the context 755 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: of the conversation, I think it made sense and he 756 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 1: handled it well and we went through it and it 757 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,800 Speaker 1: was productive. But then on the back end, I'm like, 758 00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,640 Speaker 1: does this even make any sense? Um? And You'll be 759 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:28,400 Speaker 1: the person that will be You'll be like, what the 760 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,960 Speaker 1: are you talking about? You're always the best to tell 761 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:36,320 Speaker 1: me when things are completely off. Um. The question is simply, 762 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,720 Speaker 1: this is hunting and angling. Put that in a bucket, 763 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: honey and angling, selfish, selfless or both. First, I'm not 764 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 1: throwing the question out entirely as I don't immediately look 765 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: at that and be like, that's a waste of time. 766 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 1: Why am I even think about this? Screw you ben 767 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,160 Speaker 1: from making the coug you know, even even contemplated. But 768 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,839 Speaker 1: uh no, there's there's something interesting there. I think it's 769 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,160 Speaker 1: probably more selfish. My experience with it is definitely more 770 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:13,279 Speaker 1: selfish than selfless. That's my opinion. I don't think. I 771 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:18,360 Speaker 1: can't think of a way I could frame the thousands 772 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,919 Speaker 1: and thousands of hours I've spent about fishing and also 773 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 1: hunting and say, yeah, that was a real selfless act 774 00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,800 Speaker 1: I did there. I really made other people's lives better 775 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,560 Speaker 1: and contributed to the greater good of the universe. I 776 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:35,080 Speaker 1: did not. I enriched my own experience. I learned a lot, 777 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:39,040 Speaker 1: I had a great time. UM I ate pretty well. 778 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,400 Speaker 1: But I can't. I can't look at that time and say, man, 779 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: I am I should be celebrated. They will sing songs 780 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,279 Speaker 1: about me in perpetuity for all the good I did 781 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:55,200 Speaker 1: about hunting and fishing. Yeah, I think that's most everyone's 782 00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,279 Speaker 1: answer that you would pose this too. But then you 783 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,719 Speaker 1: get into the realm of like we talked about conservation 784 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,960 Speaker 1: and how we're able to set up our systems, especially 785 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 1: our model of conservation is is is printed into Shane's 786 00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:11,719 Speaker 1: conversation here um to kind of provide value for the 787 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 1: greater good. We're always talking about Pittman Robertson and always 788 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 1: talking about the value to wildlife populations and the money 789 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,040 Speaker 1: we spend it. So I think we at least pose 790 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,360 Speaker 1: some of it is selfless, even if it's like a 791 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:30,280 Speaker 1: second dairy, an under layer of selflessness that just is 792 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,359 Speaker 1: is everyone. Anytime someone challenges the selfish part, we're like, hey, 793 00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,759 Speaker 1: but check this out. We got it. H So that's 794 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:40,399 Speaker 1: I like to break it down for that reason because 795 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 1: I think a lot of non hunters would love to 796 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:43,960 Speaker 1: hear us kind of just go on and on about this. 797 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 1: You know, I agree with you on that and and 798 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:48,640 Speaker 1: but I think that the fact that it is a 799 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:54,760 Speaker 1: secondary justification that we use undermines any sense of selflessness 800 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,400 Speaker 1: that's there. And don't get me wrong, you know my 801 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,680 Speaker 1: opinion on the model of conservation that we're talking about, 802 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,080 Speaker 1: and I think it's incredibly valuable, and I think it's 803 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,399 Speaker 1: a wonderful byproduct and a great system that has been 804 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,879 Speaker 1: built around the selfishness of hunters and anglers to use 805 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:15,399 Speaker 1: that to fund conservation. But I don't think we get 806 00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,279 Speaker 1: the stand up and be like, yeah, we did that, 807 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:21,000 Speaker 1: because I don't know anybody, myself included, who got into it. 808 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 1: Because you know what the best way to fund conservation is, 809 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 1: it's by going hunting and fishing. I don't know anybody 810 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,400 Speaker 1: who got into it that way. It's something nice that 811 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,680 Speaker 1: we get to claim, and it's a wonderful system that's 812 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,440 Speaker 1: been built too to use the power and the drive 813 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 1: of our selfishness and and convert that into positive outcomes. 814 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 1: But I don't think we get to to call ourselves selfless. 815 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: See now I sound like Shane Mahoney a little preview 816 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:53,040 Speaker 1: what's to come? No, I like, what if we're being 817 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:55,759 Speaker 1: honest and we're not in a defensive posture, that's what 818 00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:57,600 Speaker 1: we would all say. I think, I think there's a 819 00:45:57,719 --> 00:45:59,600 Speaker 1: very reasonable way to put it. But when we get 820 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:04,480 Speaker 1: put in defensive posture, what do you do you kill wildlife? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? 821 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,759 Speaker 1: And we asked that question here quite a lot um. 822 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,440 Speaker 1: I think we in a more defensive moment, look at 823 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 1: the value that we bring, look at the selflessness of 824 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:17,400 Speaker 1: our act and sometimes that's a mistake, um that we 825 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:21,160 Speaker 1: get kind of sometimes lowered into in those arguments. Okay, 826 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,600 Speaker 1: phil do you, as a non hunter, do you enjoy 827 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:29,279 Speaker 1: watching us uh flail about with these these questions? Well, 828 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,719 Speaker 1: I I do. I think these these questions are important 829 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,799 Speaker 1: and what separate I think a lot of what Meat 830 00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:38,560 Speaker 1: Eater as a company does from other stuff that's out there. 831 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,920 Speaker 1: And uh, I it's been an absolute pleasure being just 832 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,160 Speaker 1: kind of a fly on the wall for all of it. 833 00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:48,880 Speaker 1: That is very earnest response from me, and uh, I 834 00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:53,280 Speaker 1: hope you continue to have these conversations. Thank you, Philip T. Engineer. 835 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,680 Speaker 1: You really build us up. Sometimes you break us down, 836 00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:59,560 Speaker 1: but mostly you build us up. Um. I was I 837 00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,080 Speaker 1: will meant to be as as we get closer, we 838 00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: ente closer to our time with Shane Mahoney. I was 839 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 1: sitting around on Saturday night at a campsite in the 840 00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:14,800 Speaker 1: Madison River. I had had roughly five tangerine white claws, 841 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: and I was on my second watermelon. Ah, so fruity, 842 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:25,000 Speaker 1: so delicious. Um please sponsor us title sponsored by White 843 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 1: called Please as an aside, but I was feeling I 844 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,960 Speaker 1: was feeling like very reflective and philosophical sitting by the campfire, 845 00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,480 Speaker 1: just thinking about, you know, some of the stuff that's 846 00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 1: that's boiled up over the time here with the pandemic. 847 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:40,880 Speaker 1: And so that's why I was like, oh, if I 848 00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:45,120 Speaker 1: talked to Shane mahoney, we're gonna go straight, just no, 849 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,440 Speaker 1: nothing tangible, all philosophical questions, see what we can figure out. 850 00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:53,480 Speaker 1: And it was a joy, um to do it. So 851 00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,840 Speaker 1: that's where we're gonna get right now before we go, Miles, Um, 852 00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,880 Speaker 1: can we let out the secret fishing podcast that I 853 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:07,600 Speaker 1: just said already? I guess that too late now, Um, 854 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,800 Speaker 1: I cannot tell you when the fishing podcast will actually exist. 855 00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:13,920 Speaker 1: I cannot tell you what it's going to be called. 856 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,160 Speaker 1: I can't tell you that myself and our senior fishing 857 00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: editor and good buddy of mine, Joe Sir Mellie are 858 00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,080 Speaker 1: digging in and working really hard on creating a phishing 859 00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:27,879 Speaker 1: podcast that's worthy of being in the media network and 860 00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,319 Speaker 1: that won't suck. So this is like I can tell 861 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,920 Speaker 1: everybody out there that we are, we're in the lab 862 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,600 Speaker 1: on it and it's coming along, but I can't tell 863 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,680 Speaker 1: you when it's going to exist in the world. At 864 00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:41,520 Speaker 1: the beginning of that was like a Dr SEUs thing. 865 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:44,560 Speaker 1: I cannot tell you what it's called or if it 866 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,880 Speaker 1: will exist at all. I cannot tell you an do 867 00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:49,439 Speaker 1: you have an eight team month old? So I read 868 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:51,600 Speaker 1: a lot of Dr SEUs and it might be coming through. 869 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,439 Speaker 1: I also also, for those of you have kids, will 870 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,960 Speaker 1: recognize this. I realized that I've almost completely stopped speaking 871 00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,160 Speaker 1: in contractions because my kid is so in of the 872 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,359 Speaker 1: Elephant and Piggy series of books right now, and they 873 00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,120 Speaker 1: don't have any contractions anywhere in there. And I find 874 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,440 Speaker 1: that bleeding over into all of my conversations all the time. 875 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:14,960 Speaker 1: It's very weird. I hate those books. It's not like 876 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,480 Speaker 1: those are Honestly, those are some of my favorites. Face 877 00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:25,000 Speaker 1: Phil awful books. No, no, there there's so so many worse, 878 00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,359 Speaker 1: worst options out there. I'm with Phil on this one. 879 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:30,480 Speaker 1: I'm with Phil. I think they're there's some of the 880 00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,560 Speaker 1: better ones out there. I just don't. I mean, it's 881 00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:38,640 Speaker 1: just the breaks his trunk, like get a life, Get 882 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:43,759 Speaker 1: dumb Elephants. I'm gonna push back here because they're they're 883 00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,759 Speaker 1: children's books that break the fourth wall. Like for those 884 00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:48,399 Speaker 1: of those who are writers and like to think about 885 00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,480 Speaker 1: weird stuff like that. They actually addressed the reader directly. 886 00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:55,280 Speaker 1: How cool is that? Yeah, but you know he breaks 887 00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,239 Speaker 1: his trunk, so fuck it, Like, come up with a 888 00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,560 Speaker 1: better narrative. Stupid just standing around. He don't know what's 889 00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:04,280 Speaker 1: going on. Doesn't he break his nose too or something 890 00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:09,360 Speaker 1: in the end? Anyway, Um, no listener that has anybody 891 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:15,200 Speaker 1: in the five to like people talking about if you've 892 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:19,200 Speaker 1: not read what's it called Piggy and Elephant or some ship? Yeah, 893 00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,520 Speaker 1: I believe it's Elephant and Piggy. That's fine, That's totally fine. 894 00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,080 Speaker 1: Don't read it or treat it to your kids whatever. 895 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:29,759 Speaker 1: I don't care anymore. Um, all right, and on to 896 00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,239 Speaker 1: the legend. I'm gonna keep calling him a legend because 897 00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,120 Speaker 1: I believe it, um, even though that that might bother 898 00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:40,359 Speaker 1: him a little bit. I'm I believe he's brought so 899 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,600 Speaker 1: much to the world of hunting and conservation and just 900 00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,960 Speaker 1: forward thinking about this and and like I said, he's 901 00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:49,319 Speaker 1: an inspiration to me. Um, if I get lucky one day, 902 00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:53,240 Speaker 1: I can call him a mense or beautiful beard, beautiful voice, 903 00:50:53,280 --> 00:51:02,560 Speaker 1: beautiful man. That is Shane Mahoney coming right at you. Enjoy, Okay, 904 00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,480 Speaker 1: Shane mahoney, we did it. We made Uh we're recording, 905 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,960 Speaker 1: I believe, can you hear me? Yes? I can't, Yes, 906 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:09,640 Speaker 1: I can. Just to get a little bit behind the 907 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:12,239 Speaker 1: scenes for the listener, we just spent your gracious enough 908 00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,840 Speaker 1: to spend almost an hour with me trying to figure 909 00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,600 Speaker 1: out some technical difficulty. So I must begin the podcast 910 00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:19,359 Speaker 1: by saying, thank you so much for hanging in there 911 00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:21,719 Speaker 1: with us. Oh, you're most welcome, glad to do it. 912 00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:26,160 Speaker 1: We'll blame it all on Phil, if that's okay with you. Yes, 913 00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:28,640 Speaker 1: that's fine, Phil the engineer. We will lay it at 914 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:30,920 Speaker 1: his feet and he'll have to deal with the backlash. 915 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:35,040 Speaker 1: That's that's just okay. Um, Well, how's everything where you 916 00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:39,480 Speaker 1: are in Newfoundland? Well it's pretty good, you know, just 917 00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,279 Speaker 1: like everybody everywhere else. We're learning to live with a 918 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:46,520 Speaker 1: kind of a a bit of a changed reality. And 919 00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:51,279 Speaker 1: I think, like most people, UM wondering where this is 920 00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:55,920 Speaker 1: going to lead, how much change will be left behind, 921 00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,919 Speaker 1: and how much will we recover back towards the norm 922 00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:04,640 Speaker 1: circumstances that we had previous to this pandemic. Yeah, what's 923 00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:08,200 Speaker 1: what is your daily um life been? I know we're 924 00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,920 Speaker 1: speaking um the other day just about how you know 925 00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:15,040 Speaker 1: your travel has been cut off. Um, A lot of 926 00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:17,920 Speaker 1: things are changing. What what's the day to day been 927 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:22,440 Speaker 1: like there for you? Well, it's not hard to stay busy, 928 00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:27,680 Speaker 1: so it's um that hasn't changed. Um. You know, in 929 00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,000 Speaker 1: some ways the travel has been supplanted or replaced by 930 00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,960 Speaker 1: you know, virtual meetings and discussions that way over the 931 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:39,440 Speaker 1: long distance, so to speak. Um. And to some extent 932 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:43,799 Speaker 1: there have been advantages, more time to reflect, more time 933 00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:47,360 Speaker 1: to think. I don't miss the travel. I don't miss 934 00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,240 Speaker 1: the airports, I don't miss the hotels. I don't miss 935 00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:55,320 Speaker 1: any of that. Anyway. It's necessary, but it's not altogether pleasurable. 936 00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:59,880 Speaker 1: So I'd have to say, on balance, there are positives 937 00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:03,960 Speaker 1: and negatives associated with this, um, which is perhaps an 938 00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,640 Speaker 1: attitude that we're all going to have to take, because, 939 00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,240 Speaker 1: no matter how optimistic one might be about a return 940 00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:16,759 Speaker 1: to in quotation marks normal, the COVID nineteen pandemic has 941 00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:20,440 Speaker 1: proven we live in a global world, and the patchwork 942 00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,839 Speaker 1: of different responses that will come out will mean that 943 00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,480 Speaker 1: we will not go all the way back to what 944 00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:33,439 Speaker 1: we had before, but the future might be better. Yeah, 945 00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,960 Speaker 1: that's true. This certainly has been as I've said on 946 00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,239 Speaker 1: the show before, kind of a slow moving tragedy where 947 00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,040 Speaker 1: we've been able to you know, see things change in 948 00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:45,440 Speaker 1: real time and experience kind of those cultural and social 949 00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,440 Speaker 1: shifts as we all try to deal with this together. 950 00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:52,680 Speaker 1: You know. I know, now there's been many many conspiracy theories. 951 00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:56,239 Speaker 1: There was a video called planned Demic that came out 952 00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:58,560 Speaker 1: that that swept the internet, and then it was removed 953 00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:02,840 Speaker 1: from from YouTube and vine, you know, talking about um, 954 00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:06,520 Speaker 1: you know, the government's role in covid UM. But there's 955 00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,480 Speaker 1: also been a lot of positive thoughts and you know, 956 00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:11,879 Speaker 1: but I will be able to see kind of people 957 00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,440 Speaker 1: reacting to this in real time. What's been your thoughts 958 00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:19,960 Speaker 1: about what you've seen, UM, in terms of their reaction. Well, 959 00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,680 Speaker 1: you know, there always exists a significant difference of opinion 960 00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:31,680 Speaker 1: amongst people in the world about almost anything. UM. We're 961 00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,800 Speaker 1: all products of our upbringing and products of our learning, 962 00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:39,800 Speaker 1: products of our life experience. So naturally, as any political 963 00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:43,279 Speaker 1: leader will tell you, UM, there's always a diversity of 964 00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:48,040 Speaker 1: opinion almost on any policy any happening. When you see 965 00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:53,320 Speaker 1: something that strikes at a global level, UM, that strikes 966 00:54:53,480 --> 00:55:00,160 Speaker 1: the issue of human security, health and life. UM, it 967 00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,799 Speaker 1: is inevitable that a lot of people will develop very 968 00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:10,600 Speaker 1: different understandings, approaches, and interest in it. Some people will 969 00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:16,720 Speaker 1: dismiss it, some people will overreact to it, some people 970 00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:20,359 Speaker 1: will look for a conspiracy theory, some people will try 971 00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:24,680 Speaker 1: to find what the realistic source of the problem has been. 972 00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:31,399 Speaker 1: And I think what probably most people will not think 973 00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:35,880 Speaker 1: about too much is the fact that the pageant of 974 00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,840 Speaker 1: human history has been a series of new narratives that 975 00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:44,280 Speaker 1: come along periodically. There are a lot of little, small narratives, 976 00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:48,680 Speaker 1: small changes that accumulate, and every so often there is 977 00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:52,160 Speaker 1: something of a very large scale that forces us to 978 00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:57,279 Speaker 1: examine almost everything, and the COVID nineteen is one of 979 00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:03,320 Speaker 1: those because it has political implication sans social implications, economic implications, 980 00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:10,000 Speaker 1: cultural implications, ecological implications, and human health implications. And that's 981 00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:14,040 Speaker 1: only in the context of what we now know. There 982 00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:19,360 Speaker 1: is nothing that rules out the possibility of resurgences or 983 00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:25,160 Speaker 1: changes in this particular virus, nor new viruses in the future. 984 00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:29,920 Speaker 1: It's not as though this is the first time major 985 00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:34,640 Speaker 1: disease problem has confronted a large part of humanity. It's 986 00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:37,880 Speaker 1: one of the few times, of course, that it's confronted everyone, 987 00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:42,080 Speaker 1: but You know, we have had diseases like small box 988 00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,080 Speaker 1: and the bubonic plague and things of this nature which 989 00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:51,240 Speaker 1: in previous times affected a great many people, killed hundreds 990 00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:53,239 Speaker 1: of millions of people in the case of the plague, 991 00:56:54,120 --> 00:57:01,279 Speaker 1: um and which disrupted human society very fundamentally. So it's 992 00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,480 Speaker 1: too early to say what the full extent of this 993 00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:09,840 Speaker 1: problem is going to be. But in any dimension of 994 00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,840 Speaker 1: our lives, do we really expect in the near future 995 00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,600 Speaker 1: for us to gather in groups of eighty or a 996 00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:21,720 Speaker 1: hundred thousand people packed close together to watch extraordinary athletes perform, 997 00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:26,560 Speaker 1: for example, or things of this nature. Um. You know, 998 00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:30,360 Speaker 1: every single one of the numbers that we listen to 999 00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:38,120 Speaker 1: is someone's mother, someone's sung, someone's brother, someone's grandfather. And 1000 00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:40,280 Speaker 1: it's easy enough as we get into the debate of 1001 00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:42,640 Speaker 1: where it came from and who caused it and why 1002 00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:47,520 Speaker 1: did it happen, to sort of forget the number of 1003 00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:52,640 Speaker 1: people who have already died. And it's particularly saddening, I think, 1004 00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:56,440 Speaker 1: to see the number of elderly people in you know, 1005 00:57:56,520 --> 00:58:01,120 Speaker 1: old age homes or care facilities who at that stage 1006 00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:04,760 Speaker 1: of their lives are so vulnerable, and yet they disproportionately 1007 00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:06,919 Speaker 1: certainly here in Canada, and I think in other parts 1008 00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:12,600 Speaker 1: of the world have disproportionately died, So it's a I 1009 00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:16,040 Speaker 1: think it's a time for reflection. Then I agree, I 1010 00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:20,000 Speaker 1: agree as as you kind of I think I as 1011 00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:21,960 Speaker 1: I was thinking about talking to you, I really want 1012 00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:26,240 Speaker 1: to get into that reflection. Um. You know, what can 1013 00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:27,920 Speaker 1: the past tell us about where we are now? And 1014 00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:30,400 Speaker 1: then you know where might we go? Because as you said, 1015 00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:36,080 Speaker 1: this is such a wide reaching and deep issue in 1016 00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:39,120 Speaker 1: our world. But is there anything that you know, just 1017 00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:42,680 Speaker 1: more to the here now? Is there anything over the 1018 00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:44,880 Speaker 1: last couple of months as we've moved through this that 1019 00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:49,000 Speaker 1: has shocked you, that has taken you back? Um? You know, 1020 00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:50,720 Speaker 1: I know that, as you said, there's a lot of 1021 00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:54,040 Speaker 1: horrors in this Um. Is there something that you just 1022 00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,720 Speaker 1: that you think you'll remember for the rest of your 1023 00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:58,800 Speaker 1: days that's happened? Or is it more than just a 1024 00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:05,200 Speaker 1: general malaise of change? No? I mean I think for me, Um, 1025 00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,360 Speaker 1: you know, I have long held a view that that 1026 00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:13,120 Speaker 1: any current reality is extraordinarily vulnerable. You know, each of us, 1027 00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:16,080 Speaker 1: in our own individual lives, I believe is one heart 1028 00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:20,320 Speaker 1: beat away from some small disaster, potentially a new disease 1029 00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:24,880 Speaker 1: that we acquire ourselves, or some terrible accident that befalls 1030 00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:28,400 Speaker 1: someone close to us, or something of this nature. So, 1031 00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:32,000 Speaker 1: you know, at a philosophical level, I think what has 1032 00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:36,080 Speaker 1: struck me most is the rapidity with which our world 1033 00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:43,200 Speaker 1: can fundamentally change. Now, this particular virus UM has its pattern, 1034 00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:49,960 Speaker 1: it has greatest impact in those who are more vulnerable UM, 1035 00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:53,040 Speaker 1: and it is spread in the way that it is UM. 1036 00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:56,800 Speaker 1: It could have been far worse. It could have been 1037 00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:00,479 Speaker 1: a virus that was completely lethal to everyone who who 1038 01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:05,920 Speaker 1: acquired it. It could be something that you know, can 1039 01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,480 Speaker 1: live on a countertop or on a piece of clothing 1040 01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:11,920 Speaker 1: for six months rather than just a few hours or 1041 01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:15,479 Speaker 1: a couple of days. And yet even with what we have, 1042 01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:21,160 Speaker 1: you know, we have seen massive intrusions into the economics 1043 01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:25,680 Speaker 1: of our planet. We have seen massive intrusions into how 1044 01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:29,480 Speaker 1: we will think about healthcare in the future. UM. There 1045 01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:32,600 Speaker 1: are open questions about where major industries will fall as 1046 01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:34,800 Speaker 1: a result of this, such as the airline industry and 1047 01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:39,000 Speaker 1: so on. And we have to remember that before March, 1048 01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:43,760 Speaker 1: at least in the United States and Canada, this wasn't 1049 01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:48,760 Speaker 1: really consider it to be an issue. This is only 1050 01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:52,680 Speaker 1: may and all of these changes have taken place, and 1051 01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:57,120 Speaker 1: so I guess that makes you reflect on the fragility 1052 01:00:57,240 --> 01:00:59,720 Speaker 1: of any system that you have. And it's affecting every 1053 01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:02,720 Speaker 1: kind tree, from the most powerful in the world to 1054 01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:05,840 Speaker 1: do the least powerful in the world. And it is 1055 01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:08,640 Speaker 1: a leveler in the sense that it doesn't matter if 1056 01:01:08,680 --> 01:01:12,680 Speaker 1: you're a wealthier, poor, of one race or another, of 1057 01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:16,800 Speaker 1: one religion or another. This virus has the capacity to 1058 01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:21,520 Speaker 1: to impact us. So, um, you know, I dream of 1059 01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:24,800 Speaker 1: a more reflective world anyway, So maybe that's one of 1060 01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:28,840 Speaker 1: the one of the slate benefits in not to make 1061 01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:31,400 Speaker 1: light of it. Yeah, no, for sure. I mean I 1062 01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:35,080 Speaker 1: think we we've said this a lot of like I 1063 01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:38,600 Speaker 1: think this is we're into the twenty something shows that 1064 01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:42,480 Speaker 1: since we've been locked down and essentially sheltered in place 1065 01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:44,200 Speaker 1: here and and that's what I've done a lot of 1066 01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:46,800 Speaker 1: reflect And as I was thinking again, as I said 1067 01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:49,200 Speaker 1: a little bit ago, thinking about talking to you, I knew, 1068 01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:54,240 Speaker 1: you know, I could pose some very difficult existential questions 1069 01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:57,960 Speaker 1: that that I think a lot of us are either 1070 01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:01,720 Speaker 1: hinting at in our day lives are fully immersed in 1071 01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:06,960 Speaker 1: and and one of those is the reflection of the 1072 01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:12,120 Speaker 1: natural world and what this means. Um, it's a zoo 1073 01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:15,360 Speaker 1: onic disease, so went from animals to humans. Of course, 1074 01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:18,840 Speaker 1: as most everyone knows now, Um, we'll find out more 1075 01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:21,480 Speaker 1: about that, I'm sure in the future as we know 1076 01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:24,960 Speaker 1: more about the disease. But my reflection, we're hearing terms. 1077 01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:27,880 Speaker 1: I'm hearing terms on the news in terms of all 1078 01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:31,840 Speaker 1: the human race like herd immunity and things that I've 1079 01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:34,240 Speaker 1: I have heard in in in wild life biology and 1080 01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:37,040 Speaker 1: wild life circles for years, but now you're hearing those 1081 01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:40,600 Speaker 1: things pop up. So it makes me reflect on how 1082 01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:45,760 Speaker 1: this viruses is allowing us to see our own connections 1083 01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,240 Speaker 1: to the natural world and those of us that don't 1084 01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:51,800 Speaker 1: spend time outdoors of course we do. Um, how have 1085 01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:53,760 Speaker 1: you reflected on that? How is this? How has this 1086 01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:58,240 Speaker 1: change how our society would would treat its relationship with 1087 01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:00,680 Speaker 1: the natural world, knowing that that's you know, where this 1088 01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:07,680 Speaker 1: disease essentially came from. Well, I think the first thing 1089 01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:10,400 Speaker 1: we have to realize is that what COVID nineteen and 1090 01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:15,320 Speaker 1: this virus demonstrates to us is how closely related we 1091 01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:19,200 Speaker 1: are to the others that exist on this planet that 1092 01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:24,400 Speaker 1: are non human. The reason we are able to contract 1093 01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:27,440 Speaker 1: these diseases, the reason that these viruses are able to 1094 01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:31,400 Speaker 1: work within our systems, to take over our systems, to 1095 01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:35,600 Speaker 1: invade ourselves and you do the things that viruses do, 1096 01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:39,160 Speaker 1: is because of the fact that we share a tremendous 1097 01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:45,440 Speaker 1: amount of engineering genetic makeup with these other wild things 1098 01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:48,800 Speaker 1: that live, and not only wild, but even domestic things 1099 01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:52,880 Speaker 1: that live on this planet. You know my personal views 1100 01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:55,400 Speaker 1: a lot of people do. I don't really see much 1101 01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:59,160 Speaker 1: difference between human beings and other species. I just believe 1102 01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:02,000 Speaker 1: we're different, all of us. And I believe the first 1103 01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:05,000 Speaker 1: thing that COVID tells us is that we are so 1104 01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:10,000 Speaker 1: very little different that we can acquire from them, these 1105 01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:14,320 Speaker 1: viruses and and and our bodies can work with them, 1106 01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:19,360 Speaker 1: so to speak, to ill effect. I think the other 1107 01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:23,640 Speaker 1: thing is that people, of course, will develop attitudes towards 1108 01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:28,160 Speaker 1: the natural world, assuming as we are, that this virus 1109 01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:34,960 Speaker 1: probably originated in that and then translated somehow to human beings, 1110 01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:39,400 Speaker 1: potentially through wet markets or other spaces. This joins a 1111 01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:42,880 Speaker 1: long list of other viruses and bacteria that can come 1112 01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:49,240 Speaker 1: from animals and invade us um and naturally, some people 1113 01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:52,520 Speaker 1: will react in a way that says we must displace 1114 01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:57,480 Speaker 1: ourselves from all contact with nature. Ah and wild things 1115 01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:00,040 Speaker 1: and wild animals. You know, they're kind of diseased, a 1116 01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:03,400 Speaker 1: kind of vermin, et cetera. And there will be other 1117 01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:06,680 Speaker 1: people who will look at this and say that as 1118 01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:10,560 Speaker 1: long as we separate ourselves from the primary source a 1119 01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:13,640 Speaker 1: wet market in a distant country or something of this nature, 1120 01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:18,080 Speaker 1: and rely more fundamentally on the foods and systems we 1121 01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:22,280 Speaker 1: have closer to us, that we will be better off. 1122 01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:26,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that the truth of the matter 1123 01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:33,800 Speaker 1: is that, um, we will all look at this crisis 1124 01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:39,640 Speaker 1: from our own particular lens. There will be a category 1125 01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:42,360 Speaker 1: of people who will try to make use of it, 1126 01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:45,960 Speaker 1: to take advantage of it. So, for example, some people 1127 01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:49,280 Speaker 1: who say, you know, we should never use animals at all, 1128 01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:53,080 Speaker 1: We'll say, you see, this is this is a reason 1129 01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:56,200 Speaker 1: you shouldn't do it. It's not just that it's reprehensible 1130 01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:58,840 Speaker 1: that animals are used by human beings, but it's also 1131 01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:03,439 Speaker 1: you know, it causes pandemics, and therefore human beings should 1132 01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:06,120 Speaker 1: not do this kind of thing. You'll have other people 1133 01:06:06,120 --> 01:06:09,560 Speaker 1: who will reflect on it and say, no, um, I 1134 01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:11,880 Speaker 1: have been engaging in the use of animals for a 1135 01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:15,000 Speaker 1: long period of time. And what this convinces me of 1136 01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:18,600 Speaker 1: even more than before, is the fact that my reliance 1137 01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,240 Speaker 1: on them in my local environment in Montana, or in 1138 01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:25,080 Speaker 1: Newfoundland or wherever it might be, is a safeguard against 1139 01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:30,200 Speaker 1: these kinds of tragedies. So, um, you know, I think, 1140 01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:33,800 Speaker 1: as I said, a crisis like these bring out the 1141 01:06:33,800 --> 01:06:37,320 Speaker 1: they sort of they sort of draw out from people 1142 01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:45,160 Speaker 1: the diversity of opinion and expression that exists in humanity, 1143 01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:49,720 Speaker 1: and the implications for the natural world could be very severe. 1144 01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:53,480 Speaker 1: Right now, A lot of people are saying, you know, 1145 01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:56,680 Speaker 1: it's because we have this interaction with wild things that 1146 01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:02,160 Speaker 1: these problems are happening. Well, one comment I would make 1147 01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:05,480 Speaker 1: on that particular viewpoint is that human beings, when have 1148 01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:10,240 Speaker 1: we ever not been relying on wild things and other animals? 1149 01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:13,240 Speaker 1: That is no change. There's absolutely no change in the 1150 01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:15,280 Speaker 1: world about that. As a matter of fact, from from 1151 01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:19,200 Speaker 1: millions of years in previous forms and ancestries, we have 1152 01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:22,680 Speaker 1: been interacting with, killing and consuming all manner of animals. 1153 01:07:22,680 --> 01:07:25,240 Speaker 1: There are still hunts for bats species, for example, in 1154 01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:27,920 Speaker 1: other parts of the world where people consume them. Why not, 1155 01:07:28,160 --> 01:07:32,080 Speaker 1: They're they're they're an animal that can be eaten. Um. 1156 01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:35,440 Speaker 1: What has really changed, of course, is the Malthusian principle. 1157 01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:38,640 Speaker 1: We have so many of us on the planet humans, 1158 01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:42,440 Speaker 1: that is right now, and our vigility, which means our 1159 01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:48,080 Speaker 1: our capacity to move, has just been exponentially changed by 1160 01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:54,320 Speaker 1: technologies trains, planes, boats, cars. So something that happens way 1161 01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:58,160 Speaker 1: over there somewhere is all of a sudden on our 1162 01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:01,360 Speaker 1: doorstep and in our homes and in our nursing homes, 1163 01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:03,680 Speaker 1: and in our hospitals, and in our restaurants and in 1164 01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:06,120 Speaker 1: our nightclubs and bars and pubs and so on and 1165 01:08:06,160 --> 01:08:10,760 Speaker 1: so forth. So one other thing that we should be 1166 01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:13,040 Speaker 1: reflecting on is the fact that so many of us 1167 01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:18,200 Speaker 1: moving so rapidly around this planet will have implications, some 1168 01:08:18,320 --> 01:08:20,760 Speaker 1: of them very positive. Some of them we will view 1169 01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:24,760 Speaker 1: as progressive, as an advance of civilization. Others of them 1170 01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:28,560 Speaker 1: will prove to be incredibly difficult for human beings. No species, 1171 01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:34,760 Speaker 1: as Martha said, no species increases forever to these astronomical 1172 01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:40,240 Speaker 1: numbers as we have without bizarre implications emerging. So I 1173 01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:42,360 Speaker 1: think there's all of that, and I think the other 1174 01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:44,720 Speaker 1: thing I would say about our reflections on nature here 1175 01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:49,920 Speaker 1: is nobody is thinking about, you know, other issues like 1176 01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:54,840 Speaker 1: habitat loss and climate change and all of those kinds 1177 01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:58,160 Speaker 1: of things which are going to also change and move 1178 01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:03,439 Speaker 1: the interface between human beings and wild things. Um and 1179 01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:07,400 Speaker 1: as we move into a warmer world, we are going 1180 01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:13,200 Speaker 1: to see many things that are unpredictable. This year alone, 1181 01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:19,040 Speaker 1: we've had massive locust swarms in in East Africa, major 1182 01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:25,960 Speaker 1: butch fire, you know, catastrophes in Australia, unprecedented proportions. We've 1183 01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:30,480 Speaker 1: had massive floods in Indonesia. Uh, and we've had this pandemic. 1184 01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:34,479 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot going on and in the 1185 01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:41,960 Speaker 1: natural world. If you believe anything about nature, nothing is disconnected. Yeah. Yeah, 1186 01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:44,479 Speaker 1: that's a great you know, one thing I want to 1187 01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:46,080 Speaker 1: hit on that point, But I do want to return 1188 01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:48,760 Speaker 1: to something that you mentioned, because I think it's very 1189 01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:52,800 Speaker 1: important about perspectives here. I've read I've been reading a 1190 01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:56,200 Speaker 1: lot of articles tracking trends during this short, relatively short 1191 01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:58,880 Speaker 1: period of time, roughly two months or a month and 1192 01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:03,080 Speaker 1: a half. There's there's report from a company called Markets 1193 01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:07,599 Speaker 1: and Markets that finds that plant based meat will probably 1194 01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:11,080 Speaker 1: grow and veganism will probably grow because of the pandemic 1195 01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:14,880 Speaker 1: um substantially over the next the next year, year and 1196 01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:18,759 Speaker 1: a half, two years. There's also many reports that hunting 1197 01:10:19,040 --> 01:10:24,519 Speaker 1: participation is up over the last oh, you know, four 1198 01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:29,000 Speaker 1: weeks early spring season numbers out of Georgia, UM out 1199 01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:31,559 Speaker 1: of Colorado, out of a bunch of states that are 1200 01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:35,640 Speaker 1: putting out early projections on hunting license sales and participation 1201 01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:38,880 Speaker 1: across the board, that that that is also going up. 1202 01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:41,680 Speaker 1: And so as I read that, it just denotes what 1203 01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:44,519 Speaker 1: you were saying a bit ago, that it you know, 1204 01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:47,560 Speaker 1: people are taking their own perspective and kind of amplifying 1205 01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:51,400 Speaker 1: it in these times. How do you how do you 1206 01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:54,599 Speaker 1: see those trends? Is there one something one of these 1207 01:10:54,680 --> 01:10:57,080 Speaker 1: stronger than the other. Is that like the self sufficiency, 1208 01:10:57,200 --> 01:11:01,960 Speaker 1: feed yourself local wore ideas stronger than the more global 1209 01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:08,559 Speaker 1: veganistic uh animal rights worldview. I that's my main My 1210 01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:10,760 Speaker 1: main thought is which one is stronger, which one is 1211 01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:14,280 Speaker 1: more prevailing? And there's any way to know if if 1212 01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:23,599 Speaker 1: there is? Well, UM, when we talk about the issue 1213 01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:29,280 Speaker 1: of use of living things to provide for human beings, 1214 01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:33,720 Speaker 1: the kind of hunting that you and I are familiar with, 1215 01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:37,160 Speaker 1: the recreational hunter in Canada, the United States, Europe, other 1216 01:11:37,160 --> 01:11:40,720 Speaker 1: parts of the world is of course a component of that, 1217 01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:44,720 Speaker 1: and in our cultures in North America certainly quite significant. 1218 01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:48,519 Speaker 1: You know, we have millions of people who participate, tens 1219 01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:51,040 Speaker 1: and tens of millions more with whom that wild food 1220 01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:53,439 Speaker 1: is shared and so on and so forth. It is 1221 01:11:53,479 --> 01:11:56,160 Speaker 1: no small item. But when you put it in the 1222 01:11:56,240 --> 01:12:01,000 Speaker 1: context of say something like world fisheries, which feed two 1223 01:12:01,080 --> 01:12:07,439 Speaker 1: billion people a year and employ hundreds of millions of people, etcetera, etcetera. Um, 1224 01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:09,960 Speaker 1: you know, our recreational hunting in that sense as a 1225 01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:13,360 Speaker 1: food provisioning system from a global perspective, is relatively small. 1226 01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:18,880 Speaker 1: But I raised the point, you know, because sometimes this 1227 01:12:18,960 --> 01:12:22,760 Speaker 1: worldview is dichotomized between those who sort of recreationally hunt 1228 01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:25,880 Speaker 1: and use animals that way and individuals who have a 1229 01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:28,799 Speaker 1: different perspective and field that animals should never be taken 1230 01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:31,599 Speaker 1: and harvested for for for that reason, and we forget 1231 01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:35,240 Speaker 1: the fact that in this modern world, still in this 1232 01:12:35,320 --> 01:12:41,479 Speaker 1: twenty century, billions of people, billions of people across all 1233 01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:46,439 Speaker 1: spectrums of society and all countries are totally reliant on 1234 01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:55,519 Speaker 1: the pursuit, capture, killing, butchering, and consumption of sentient living creatures. 1235 01:12:55,800 --> 01:13:01,320 Speaker 1: Fish alone, as I said, is a classic example. So this, 1236 01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:07,320 Speaker 1: this world view of let's become vegan versus let's continue 1237 01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:10,600 Speaker 1: to use animals, is much wider, of course than a 1238 01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:13,760 Speaker 1: comparison between recreational hunting in that that's that's the first 1239 01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:16,519 Speaker 1: point I would make. And very often people who are 1240 01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:19,759 Speaker 1: involved in the debate on the on the recreational hunting 1241 01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:25,080 Speaker 1: side or the hunting side itself, forget the fact that we, 1242 01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:29,799 Speaker 1: in fact, in that activity are linked with massive global 1243 01:13:30,439 --> 01:13:33,720 Speaker 1: undertakings that are absolutely essential right now and for the 1244 01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:39,920 Speaker 1: foreseeable future and the sustenance of human society. Um. However, 1245 01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:44,800 Speaker 1: there are alternative views or alternate views, and one of 1246 01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:48,080 Speaker 1: those is begins with animal rights views in the extreme 1247 01:13:49,080 --> 01:13:52,400 Speaker 1: and then goes to ideas you know, that we should 1248 01:13:52,400 --> 01:13:55,040 Speaker 1: all be turned vegan and so forth. But of course 1249 01:13:55,760 --> 01:13:58,360 Speaker 1: there is the question of how do we all become vegan? Then? 1250 01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:02,479 Speaker 1: Where does all that habitat come from? What is the 1251 01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:05,120 Speaker 1: cost of turning the seven and a half billion of 1252 01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:10,120 Speaker 1: us on this planet to total to veganism entirely? How 1253 01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:12,519 Speaker 1: much while life habitat has to be taken to produce 1254 01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:15,320 Speaker 1: all of that food, what will be the implications for 1255 01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:18,320 Speaker 1: species loss. I'm not saying I have the answers to 1256 01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:20,799 Speaker 1: all of those questions, but I'm saying the profound questions 1257 01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:24,280 Speaker 1: that need answering before we can see, you know, where 1258 01:14:24,280 --> 01:14:28,240 Speaker 1: the world ought to go. Now, what will be stronger? Well, 1259 01:14:28,840 --> 01:14:32,120 Speaker 1: I think what will be stronger depends on where you live. 1260 01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:37,400 Speaker 1: I think in some societies, uh, you know, this will 1261 01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:40,880 Speaker 1: push people, or encourage people to become much more self 1262 01:14:40,920 --> 01:14:45,640 Speaker 1: sufficient in their harvest of living things, hopefully in a sustainable, 1263 01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:50,000 Speaker 1: respectful manner. In other cases, it will cause people to 1264 01:14:50,080 --> 01:14:53,799 Speaker 1: say no. If I have been thinking about veganism, maybe 1265 01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:55,640 Speaker 1: now is the time for me to move further in 1266 01:14:55,720 --> 01:14:59,080 Speaker 1: that kind of a direction. Of course, I don't think 1267 01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:02,400 Speaker 1: the two worlds are completely separated, are they. I mean, 1268 01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:06,040 Speaker 1: I think you probably eat cucumbers or potatoes or lettuce periodically. 1269 01:15:06,120 --> 01:15:08,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think you've taken them completely off 1270 01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:11,120 Speaker 1: your list. You know, I enjoy them, yes, and many 1271 01:15:11,160 --> 01:15:15,160 Speaker 1: people and many people who eat, you know, don't want 1272 01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:18,000 Speaker 1: to see animals harvested. Of course, end up eating a 1273 01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:20,760 Speaker 1: great many animals that are harvested, whether it's shrimp or 1274 01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:25,280 Speaker 1: codfish or salmon, or to un official or whatever else 1275 01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:28,920 Speaker 1: it might be. So I mean, I don't think one 1276 01:15:29,160 --> 01:15:33,120 Speaker 1: is stronger or weaker than the other as a result 1277 01:15:33,160 --> 01:15:37,240 Speaker 1: of COVID. I think the interests in them are being 1278 01:15:37,240 --> 01:15:40,960 Speaker 1: heightened as a result of this. Where the world will 1279 01:15:41,040 --> 01:15:43,640 Speaker 1: head with respect to all of this men is a 1280 01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:51,280 Speaker 1: profound question. Yes, And in between the worlds of veganism 1281 01:15:51,320 --> 01:15:56,120 Speaker 1: and individuals and organizations who are opposed to hunting, and 1282 01:15:56,240 --> 01:15:59,519 Speaker 1: the world of people who are actively engaged in hunting, 1283 01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:05,080 Speaker 1: there is a massive in between world of people who 1284 01:16:05,360 --> 01:16:11,600 Speaker 1: consume across the ecological spectrum, but who are also becoming 1285 01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:18,880 Speaker 1: in increasing numbers concerned for the future of wildlife and animals. 1286 01:16:19,080 --> 01:16:22,599 Speaker 1: That is over all a very good thing. But some 1287 01:16:22,960 --> 01:16:26,640 Speaker 1: of those people will drift more towards a protectionist side, 1288 01:16:27,160 --> 01:16:30,000 Speaker 1: and some of those people will drift more towards a 1289 01:16:30,080 --> 01:16:34,559 Speaker 1: sustainable use side, But all of them will be part 1290 01:16:34,640 --> 01:16:38,760 Speaker 1: of shifting our relationship with animals. Let no one be 1291 01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:45,120 Speaker 1: misguided about that a fundamental shift, independent of COVID is 1292 01:16:45,160 --> 01:16:48,280 Speaker 1: taking place in human society with respect to our attitudes 1293 01:16:48,320 --> 01:16:52,400 Speaker 1: towards animals, how we perceive them, how we represent them, 1294 01:16:52,400 --> 01:16:55,559 Speaker 1: how closely we see them resembling ourselves. Of vice versa. 1295 01:16:55,800 --> 01:16:59,759 Speaker 1: That's all real and that's all pre COVID. The interesting 1296 01:16:59,800 --> 01:17:03,240 Speaker 1: thing in that debate is how will this experience the 1297 01:17:03,320 --> 01:17:07,920 Speaker 1: code experience, I mean, influencing that trend that has been 1298 01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:11,240 Speaker 1: already occurring. Yeah, that's that's the kind of where I 1299 01:17:11,280 --> 01:17:13,960 Speaker 1: was going with that. Like these polls, the vegan pole 1300 01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:19,120 Speaker 1: and the hunter or wild caught food poll within the discussion, 1301 01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:22,800 Speaker 1: you know, which one has a stronger you know, is 1302 01:17:23,200 --> 01:17:26,160 Speaker 1: a stronger magnetic pool, right if there are polarities or 1303 01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:28,439 Speaker 1: different ends of the magnet, like which which one is 1304 01:17:28,439 --> 01:17:31,760 Speaker 1: going to attract more people based on changes here? But 1305 01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:34,760 Speaker 1: I think the question I was thinking of as you 1306 01:17:34,760 --> 01:17:37,920 Speaker 1: were making those those last comments was how much we 1307 01:17:37,960 --> 01:17:40,280 Speaker 1: talked about that are how we value animals and kind 1308 01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:42,840 Speaker 1: of the value system that we've built. And we'll talk 1309 01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:45,160 Speaker 1: about your wonderful book with with val Geist on the 1310 01:17:45,160 --> 01:17:48,000 Speaker 1: North American midle here in a little bit, But how 1311 01:17:48,040 --> 01:17:52,160 Speaker 1: we've built structure and then also value around while the 1312 01:17:52,200 --> 01:17:56,840 Speaker 1: animals and domestic how much do you think within this 1313 01:17:56,960 --> 01:18:02,120 Speaker 1: spectrum are these value systems in leaments by economics as in, 1314 01:18:03,160 --> 01:18:07,000 Speaker 1: the more comfortable you are, the more let's say, first 1315 01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:10,600 Speaker 1: world you are, the more comfortable economically you are, the 1316 01:18:10,640 --> 01:18:13,599 Speaker 1: more you have time to think of this larger value. 1317 01:18:13,600 --> 01:18:16,080 Speaker 1: If you are UM, I know you spent a lot 1318 01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:19,360 Speaker 1: of time thinking about it. In Africa, in some of 1319 01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:23,439 Speaker 1: the poorer communities, there's a different value system struggle going on. 1320 01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:27,040 Speaker 1: And so within the conversation before and after COVID, how 1321 01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:31,400 Speaker 1: do you see that economic piece of the puzzle impacting 1322 01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:39,120 Speaker 1: the value systems. It's clear from human history that depending 1323 01:18:39,160 --> 01:18:46,479 Speaker 1: on how distant you can be from nature directly, that 1324 01:18:46,560 --> 01:18:50,560 Speaker 1: can provide you with the freedom and the time to 1325 01:18:50,680 --> 01:18:53,759 Speaker 1: reflect on larger questions, whether they are questions of human 1326 01:18:53,840 --> 01:18:56,120 Speaker 1: freedom and justice, or whether they are questions of our 1327 01:18:56,200 --> 01:19:02,120 Speaker 1: relationship with nature. Um. It is is a fact, whether 1328 01:19:02,200 --> 01:19:06,320 Speaker 1: people find it regrettable or otherwise, that it has often 1329 01:19:06,360 --> 01:19:09,639 Speaker 1: been people who have been privileged or imprivileged circumstances. They've 1330 01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:12,479 Speaker 1: been well off, you know, their food supplies have been secure, 1331 01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:15,000 Speaker 1: they've lived in nice homes, and so on, who have 1332 01:19:15,120 --> 01:19:20,800 Speaker 1: reflected about these larger ideas. The North American wildlife conservation 1333 01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:24,519 Speaker 1: approach itself, it was not really born in the rural 1334 01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:28,599 Speaker 1: communities of a place like the island of Newfoundland. It 1335 01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:32,160 Speaker 1: was borne out of the reflections primarily not exclusively, but 1336 01:19:32,240 --> 01:19:36,120 Speaker 1: primarily a very of the blue bloods of America, the 1337 01:19:36,200 --> 01:19:40,559 Speaker 1: rose of ELTs, etcetera. UM, So I think there is 1338 01:19:40,600 --> 01:19:45,920 Speaker 1: a direct tie between, first of all, just conjecturing about 1339 01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:49,720 Speaker 1: these things. If you're living in a rural community in 1340 01:19:49,800 --> 01:19:53,360 Speaker 1: Africa or in the Canadian Arctic, or wherever it might be, 1341 01:19:54,400 --> 01:19:57,599 Speaker 1: and your day by day sustenance depends on you going 1342 01:19:57,640 --> 01:20:01,360 Speaker 1: out and taking the lives other animals in order to 1343 01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:04,479 Speaker 1: feed yourself in your family, and you have absolutely no 1344 01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:08,320 Speaker 1: other alternative, well you probably don't reflect too much on 1345 01:20:08,360 --> 01:20:11,639 Speaker 1: all of the deep philosophical questions that that might attend. 1346 01:20:13,040 --> 01:20:16,200 Speaker 1: You have much more basic questions to answer. So I 1347 01:20:16,240 --> 01:20:20,960 Speaker 1: do think there is a relationship between wealth, security, UH 1348 01:20:21,280 --> 01:20:25,440 Speaker 1: and the inclination and capacity to reflect on these larger questions, 1349 01:20:26,520 --> 01:20:30,559 Speaker 1: and that can and has, I think, in many cases, 1350 01:20:31,240 --> 01:20:35,120 Speaker 1: set up dichotomous views of the world. Where it is 1351 01:20:35,240 --> 01:20:38,799 Speaker 1: very interesting that often those of us and I include 1352 01:20:39,320 --> 01:20:41,240 Speaker 1: both you and I, and this we are privileged in 1353 01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:46,280 Speaker 1: this world. Many of us can develop attitudes which we 1354 01:20:46,360 --> 01:20:49,639 Speaker 1: think are correct and that we for some reason feel 1355 01:20:49,720 --> 01:20:54,640 Speaker 1: can be applied to people elsewhere. So in the extreme circumstance, 1356 01:20:55,520 --> 01:20:58,759 Speaker 1: you can have somebody very well off living in a 1357 01:20:58,800 --> 01:21:02,599 Speaker 1: major city in Canada or the United States, who if 1358 01:21:02,640 --> 01:21:07,000 Speaker 1: a cockroach invades their home, immediately scrambled for the phone 1359 01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:09,800 Speaker 1: book or their dial on their phone to see who 1360 01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:13,120 Speaker 1: the local exterminator is and call them to get over 1361 01:21:13,160 --> 01:21:16,280 Speaker 1: to their domicile immediately because they cannot live with this 1362 01:21:16,320 --> 01:21:19,960 Speaker 1: one insect. But they are quite prepared to argue that 1363 01:21:20,120 --> 01:21:25,240 Speaker 1: African lions and leopards and elephants and so forth should 1364 01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:30,200 Speaker 1: be completely tolerated, loved, accepted, I mean viewed as iconic 1365 01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:33,880 Speaker 1: by people who every day may be eaten, killed and 1366 01:21:33,960 --> 01:21:36,639 Speaker 1: eaten by those animals, or who may suffer the complete 1367 01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:39,639 Speaker 1: loss of their crop as a result of a marauding elephant, 1368 01:21:39,680 --> 01:21:43,040 Speaker 1: for example. So there's no question that there is there 1369 01:21:43,120 --> 01:21:48,040 Speaker 1: is some relationship here. But I don't think we should 1370 01:21:48,080 --> 01:21:49,960 Speaker 1: go so far, of course, as to say, and I 1371 01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:52,880 Speaker 1: know you're not saying this, but but some people sort 1372 01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:55,920 Speaker 1: of set it up very clearly. There are, clearly are 1373 01:21:56,000 --> 01:22:01,720 Speaker 1: many people of means who are deeply concerned about the 1374 01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:05,439 Speaker 1: lives of people who are not as fortunate, who invest 1375 01:22:05,640 --> 01:22:08,760 Speaker 1: tremendous amounts of their time and money and and and 1376 01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:12,800 Speaker 1: freedom in in working on behalf of things that don't 1377 01:22:12,800 --> 01:22:16,080 Speaker 1: necessarily benefit themselves but benefit other people in the world. 1378 01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:19,519 Speaker 1: And these are the These are the great people of 1379 01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:23,320 Speaker 1: the world, the people who do these kinds of things. Ah, 1380 01:22:23,320 --> 01:22:25,680 Speaker 1: And we have a lot of them. Your country has 1381 01:22:25,720 --> 01:22:28,200 Speaker 1: a great many of them. And I think it's a 1382 01:22:28,240 --> 01:22:32,839 Speaker 1: fantastic thing. Um. So I don't feel that just because 1383 01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:35,679 Speaker 1: you know, the world has gotten wealthier or more people 1384 01:22:35,800 --> 01:22:39,599 Speaker 1: live above a poverty line or something like that, that 1385 01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:43,520 Speaker 1: that means ultimately we're going to have a complete overwhelming 1386 01:22:43,640 --> 01:22:47,760 Speaker 1: anti use view of the world, for example, or protectionist view. 1387 01:22:48,800 --> 01:22:53,519 Speaker 1: But I do think that as wealth increases, and as 1388 01:22:53,640 --> 01:22:58,960 Speaker 1: our systems of providing for ourselves distance us more and 1389 01:22:59,120 --> 01:23:04,280 Speaker 1: more from nature in a practical direct way, then I 1390 01:23:04,320 --> 01:23:08,200 Speaker 1: think you are bound to see a significant shift in 1391 01:23:08,240 --> 01:23:12,559 Speaker 1: the average kind of thinking, you know, where society sits 1392 01:23:13,160 --> 01:23:16,040 Speaker 1: with respect to these questions. And I think is that 1393 01:23:16,200 --> 01:23:18,360 Speaker 1: is the reason why we were seeing this rise in 1394 01:23:18,439 --> 01:23:22,519 Speaker 1: empathy for wildlife today? Yeah. Yeah. I had a vegan 1395 01:23:22,840 --> 01:23:28,040 Speaker 1: ethicist or vegan philosopher UM named Dr Robert C. Jones 1396 01:23:28,120 --> 01:23:31,479 Speaker 1: on a few weeks back, and we talked about bargains 1397 01:23:31,800 --> 01:23:34,400 Speaker 1: um in terms of food consumption. You know, we're all 1398 01:23:34,439 --> 01:23:37,599 Speaker 1: making a bargain no matter what we do. I gave 1399 01:23:37,680 --> 01:23:40,959 Speaker 1: him the example of, hey, listen, we're talking about suffering 1400 01:23:41,000 --> 01:23:43,320 Speaker 1: in this case, you know, the the undue suffering of 1401 01:23:43,360 --> 01:23:46,479 Speaker 1: sentient beings. It's kind of his animal rights philosophy. I 1402 01:23:46,520 --> 01:23:49,360 Speaker 1: don't want to I understand that my actions will cause death, 1403 01:23:49,360 --> 01:23:52,280 Speaker 1: but I don't want to cause any unnecessary death or 1404 01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:55,519 Speaker 1: suffering if I don't have to. And the example I 1405 01:23:55,640 --> 01:23:58,479 Speaker 1: borrow for him in terms of bargaining was that I 1406 01:23:58,479 --> 01:24:02,240 Speaker 1: would love to grow tomatoes and other crops in my backyard, 1407 01:24:02,840 --> 01:24:06,880 Speaker 1: but I had a a vole infestation that was making 1408 01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:08,840 Speaker 1: it hard to do that. And so I had to 1409 01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:10,800 Speaker 1: kind of make the bargain of do I kill these 1410 01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:13,280 Speaker 1: voles which allows me to grow these crops in my 1411 01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:17,439 Speaker 1: backyard and not get a proxy, you know, even a 1412 01:24:17,439 --> 01:24:20,280 Speaker 1: proxy local farmer who I don't know what his practices are. 1413 01:24:20,320 --> 01:24:23,479 Speaker 1: To get to this end point. So now I have 1414 01:24:23,520 --> 01:24:25,599 Speaker 1: to make a bargain. My bargain is if I kill 1415 01:24:25,680 --> 01:24:27,880 Speaker 1: these voles, I know the result. If they all die, 1416 01:24:28,360 --> 01:24:31,120 Speaker 1: I know I get the tomatoes. If I let them live, 1417 01:24:31,400 --> 01:24:33,600 Speaker 1: I know I probably won't get as many tomatoes. And 1418 01:24:33,600 --> 01:24:35,960 Speaker 1: then I've got to kind of outsource that death to 1419 01:24:36,080 --> 01:24:41,200 Speaker 1: someone else, or you know, approximately do that lack of 1420 01:24:41,320 --> 01:24:44,240 Speaker 1: you know, knowledge of of of what the impact of 1421 01:24:44,240 --> 01:24:47,479 Speaker 1: that death is at least, And I think that's for 1422 01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:50,600 Speaker 1: me a question I'd love to hear you take on, 1423 01:24:50,800 --> 01:24:53,479 Speaker 1: Like is it just a series of bargains that we're 1424 01:24:53,479 --> 01:24:56,200 Speaker 1: making in consumption? Some of us are making the bargains 1425 01:24:56,200 --> 01:24:59,280 Speaker 1: more tangibly, we know the result. If I eat this, 1426 01:24:59,280 --> 01:25:02,280 Speaker 1: this happens. If I do this, this happens. Others of 1427 01:25:02,400 --> 01:25:07,879 Speaker 1: us are you know, making those bargains either in secret 1428 01:25:08,040 --> 01:25:10,320 Speaker 1: or just not acknowledging them as we make them. When 1429 01:25:10,360 --> 01:25:13,200 Speaker 1: I eat a hamburger, I don't. I don't think about 1430 01:25:13,320 --> 01:25:16,679 Speaker 1: the give and take, um. And so I think that's 1431 01:25:16,720 --> 01:25:19,720 Speaker 1: maybe the ultimate question that I have is is how 1432 01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:23,600 Speaker 1: do you see that the idea of these bargains and 1433 01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:27,439 Speaker 1: how it moves through our own thinking through time? And 1434 01:25:27,600 --> 01:25:29,960 Speaker 1: also I think what you just said pertains to this, 1435 01:25:30,120 --> 01:25:34,559 Speaker 1: the the economics of the situation, um, where you grew up, 1436 01:25:34,600 --> 01:25:38,000 Speaker 1: how you grew up, your traditions, your culture. I think 1437 01:25:38,040 --> 01:25:40,880 Speaker 1: all the things go into it. But UM interested to 1438 01:25:40,880 --> 01:25:44,000 Speaker 1: hear your thoughts about you know, bargaining death and suffering 1439 01:25:44,000 --> 01:25:50,439 Speaker 1: around consumption. I don't know if I would call it 1440 01:25:50,479 --> 01:25:58,000 Speaker 1: a bargain um, but from my view of human evolution 1441 01:25:58,120 --> 01:26:04,040 Speaker 1: and history, and my view of the planet and the 1442 01:26:04,120 --> 01:26:10,120 Speaker 1: natural systems from which all of us draw life, I 1443 01:26:10,200 --> 01:26:15,040 Speaker 1: think it is inescapable that one way or another, our species, 1444 01:26:15,080 --> 01:26:20,200 Speaker 1: like all species, will take We cannot live without food, 1445 01:26:20,240 --> 01:26:22,519 Speaker 1: we cannot live without air, we cannot live without all 1446 01:26:22,640 --> 01:26:26,360 Speaker 1: kinds of things. And there's only one ultimate source for 1447 01:26:26,400 --> 01:26:30,240 Speaker 1: all of this. It's called Earth. Some people talk about 1448 01:26:30,360 --> 01:26:32,320 Speaker 1: going to other places, but let me tell you that's 1449 01:26:32,360 --> 01:26:37,519 Speaker 1: not going to help most of us. I don't see 1450 01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:44,040 Speaker 1: anything unnatural in the process of human beings taking from 1451 01:26:44,160 --> 01:26:47,879 Speaker 1: the natural world, and that includes the harvesting of other creatures, 1452 01:26:49,000 --> 01:26:51,280 Speaker 1: anymore than I see it unnatural for the leopard to 1453 01:26:51,280 --> 01:26:54,759 Speaker 1: do that, or for the wolf or for the deer 1454 01:26:54,800 --> 01:26:59,120 Speaker 1: to to browse and graze what what it takes. And 1455 01:26:59,200 --> 01:27:04,439 Speaker 1: to some extent I find it increase exceedingly unnatural as 1456 01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:08,160 Speaker 1: a philosophy to suggest that that is in quotation marks 1457 01:27:08,200 --> 01:27:12,559 Speaker 1: the role or position for humanity, and I believe that 1458 01:27:12,640 --> 01:27:15,679 Speaker 1: to adopt that role suggests that we are separate from nature, 1459 01:27:16,360 --> 01:27:20,160 Speaker 1: and I don't accept that we not only are born 1460 01:27:20,439 --> 01:27:24,719 Speaker 1: through this exact same processes as other mammals. Not only 1461 01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:27,000 Speaker 1: are we raised in exactly the same way you know, 1462 01:27:27,120 --> 01:27:29,519 Speaker 1: fed at our mother's breast and so on and so 1463 01:27:29,640 --> 01:27:33,519 Speaker 1: forth as all mammals are, but you know, we live 1464 01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:36,080 Speaker 1: our lives based on the d n A and the 1465 01:27:36,200 --> 01:27:39,080 Speaker 1: architecture of what we have. We consume and burn food 1466 01:27:39,120 --> 01:27:42,080 Speaker 1: in the same way we require certain nutrients to survive, 1467 01:27:43,080 --> 01:27:48,920 Speaker 1: and ultimately we die, and we decompose, and we go 1468 01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:52,280 Speaker 1: back into the earth that ultimately was responsible for us. 1469 01:27:52,479 --> 01:27:54,680 Speaker 1: This is the journey that every human being is on, 1470 01:27:55,360 --> 01:27:58,200 Speaker 1: no matter what their philosophy, or their creed or their 1471 01:27:58,320 --> 01:28:04,920 Speaker 1: skin color. UM. So I do think that as human 1472 01:28:04,960 --> 01:28:11,240 Speaker 1: beings because we reflect beyond accepting that we will harvest 1473 01:28:11,520 --> 01:28:16,519 Speaker 1: wild things, which I believe in UM and and I 1474 01:28:16,560 --> 01:28:22,240 Speaker 1: do because I think it is ecologically sound and proportional. UM. 1475 01:28:22,280 --> 01:28:27,320 Speaker 1: I do believe we have a responsibility to think about 1476 01:28:27,360 --> 01:28:32,200 Speaker 1: suffering and to think about death, particularly death that we 1477 01:28:32,439 --> 01:28:38,640 Speaker 1: in selves, ourselves impose. I have long argued, for example, 1478 01:28:38,880 --> 01:28:45,200 Speaker 1: that the hunting community has stood outside all of the 1479 01:28:45,240 --> 01:28:52,680 Speaker 1: discussions of animal welfare UM and failed in our responsibilities 1480 01:28:53,520 --> 01:28:56,679 Speaker 1: to talk about issues such as animal caring and animal 1481 01:28:56,720 --> 01:29:00,560 Speaker 1: welfare and we should have been. I don't think it 1482 01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:04,560 Speaker 1: should have been those individuals, for example, who were opposed 1483 01:29:04,600 --> 01:29:08,479 Speaker 1: to all use of animals who forced the world to 1484 01:29:08,560 --> 01:29:13,720 Speaker 1: develop more humane trapping methods. But that's the truth of 1485 01:29:13,720 --> 01:29:19,519 Speaker 1: the matter, isn't it. M I think that therefore, the 1486 01:29:19,600 --> 01:29:23,120 Speaker 1: only bargain that I sort of look at from my 1487 01:29:23,280 --> 01:29:27,559 Speaker 1: perspective is to know that when we go to harvest animals, 1488 01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:30,800 Speaker 1: we go to kill them, not to hurt them. And 1489 01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:34,759 Speaker 1: that may seem a ridiculous proposition and differentiation for someone 1490 01:29:34,800 --> 01:29:37,960 Speaker 1: who is completely opposed to the harvesting of wild things. 1491 01:29:39,160 --> 01:29:41,280 Speaker 1: But there's a reason why one should train to be 1492 01:29:41,360 --> 01:29:45,080 Speaker 1: capable of harvesting an animal quickly. There's a reason why 1493 01:29:45,080 --> 01:29:48,120 Speaker 1: one should know over what distances one is able to 1494 01:29:48,439 --> 01:29:51,080 Speaker 1: harvest an animal, for example, depending on the weaponry that 1495 01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:56,920 Speaker 1: it's used. And I do fundamentally believe that there are 1496 01:29:57,439 --> 01:30:01,559 Speaker 1: hunters who are concerned about these issues, and I believe 1497 01:30:01,600 --> 01:30:04,000 Speaker 1: there are hunters who are not concerned about these issues. 1498 01:30:05,479 --> 01:30:12,680 Speaker 1: And for me, um my harvesting of animals works inside 1499 01:30:12,960 --> 01:30:16,200 Speaker 1: this man at the same time that I can openly 1500 01:30:16,240 --> 01:30:18,519 Speaker 1: say I am in love with them, and I have 1501 01:30:19,040 --> 01:30:22,759 Speaker 1: since a boy until the day I die I will 1502 01:30:22,800 --> 01:30:26,800 Speaker 1: remain absolutely fascinated by them. This very day, in the 1503 01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:30,800 Speaker 1: storm of wind that's taking place in rural Uffittland, I 1504 01:30:30,920 --> 01:30:34,360 Speaker 1: was watching gannets, you know, dive into the high waves 1505 01:30:34,400 --> 01:30:38,920 Speaker 1: and taking food in the harbor next to where I live. Um, 1506 01:30:38,960 --> 01:30:41,400 Speaker 1: there were lots of people walking up and down the street, 1507 01:30:41,479 --> 01:30:45,800 Speaker 1: for example, who never noticed those animals? Don't wonder about 1508 01:30:45,880 --> 01:30:48,080 Speaker 1: how do they see in these turbid waters? How do 1509 01:30:48,120 --> 01:30:49,880 Speaker 1: they how do they know where there are a little 1510 01:30:49,920 --> 01:30:52,680 Speaker 1: fish down there that they can miraculously find? But for 1511 01:30:52,800 --> 01:30:58,200 Speaker 1: me it's a source of infinite interest and inspiration. And 1512 01:30:58,280 --> 01:31:02,479 Speaker 1: I know by watching them over decades that many of 1513 01:31:02,479 --> 01:31:07,960 Speaker 1: them have capacities we can only dream about. So there 1514 01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:13,960 Speaker 1: may be costs and benefits that we can talk about 1515 01:31:14,320 --> 01:31:18,360 Speaker 1: with respect to how we approach using the natural world 1516 01:31:18,400 --> 01:31:21,000 Speaker 1: to feed ourselves. Whether the world would all become vegan, 1517 01:31:21,040 --> 01:31:24,200 Speaker 1: What would that look like versus a component of the 1518 01:31:24,240 --> 01:31:27,559 Speaker 1: world harvesting while things. What does that look like? So 1519 01:31:27,600 --> 01:31:29,439 Speaker 1: we can look at it from the point of view 1520 01:31:29,560 --> 01:31:34,559 Speaker 1: of course benefit relationships. But I think ultimately in feeding 1521 01:31:34,560 --> 01:31:39,160 Speaker 1: ourselves there is the question of what is the ecology 1522 01:31:39,520 --> 01:31:45,040 Speaker 1: of man? What is the ecology of humanism? What is 1523 01:31:45,080 --> 01:31:49,599 Speaker 1: the ecology of this species that should, for some reason 1524 01:31:50,120 --> 01:31:54,240 Speaker 1: make it so remarkably different from the millions and millions 1525 01:31:54,280 --> 01:31:57,559 Speaker 1: and millions of other life forms that make their way. 1526 01:31:59,280 --> 01:32:02,760 Speaker 1: If we can strike a bargain, it might be to 1527 01:32:02,840 --> 01:32:07,439 Speaker 1: say that when we harvest wild things, we harvest them 1528 01:32:07,479 --> 01:32:11,880 Speaker 1: more humanely. Then most of them die in nature. And 1529 01:32:11,920 --> 01:32:14,559 Speaker 1: for those of us who have spent time studying nature 1530 01:32:14,600 --> 01:32:17,000 Speaker 1: as biologists or people who spend a lot of time 1531 01:32:17,000 --> 01:32:21,080 Speaker 1: in the outdoors, death of nature is never a retirement 1532 01:32:21,120 --> 01:32:24,720 Speaker 1: to a rocking chair on a porch. Animals that die 1533 01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:30,000 Speaker 1: in the wild die hard. So it is not a 1534 01:32:30,080 --> 01:32:32,960 Speaker 1: question that if we leave them they will live forever, 1535 01:32:33,120 --> 01:32:36,639 Speaker 1: lives without pain. And the idea that to leave them 1536 01:32:36,680 --> 01:32:40,280 Speaker 1: and therefore it will be more natural, suggests, indeed, that 1537 01:32:40,320 --> 01:32:44,160 Speaker 1: we are presuming we are not part of nature. I 1538 01:32:44,240 --> 01:32:47,439 Speaker 1: find that philosophically inconsistent, and I don't I don't agree 1539 01:32:47,479 --> 01:32:50,479 Speaker 1: with it. I have I as I've delved into and 1540 01:32:50,520 --> 01:32:55,000 Speaker 1: spoken to folks that I could find to be rational 1541 01:32:55,080 --> 01:32:57,479 Speaker 1: and and and a bit irrational in the in the 1542 01:32:57,479 --> 01:33:00,360 Speaker 1: animal rights community, I've I've only become more hard and 1543 01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:04,320 Speaker 1: the idea that they are are just patently wrong, and 1544 01:33:04,360 --> 01:33:09,519 Speaker 1: that that time will weaken their ideologies and philosophies within it. 1545 01:33:10,280 --> 01:33:15,880 Speaker 1: When you're talking there, something struck me a question I think, um, 1546 01:33:15,920 --> 01:33:18,639 Speaker 1: that you will will be able to answer. And it's 1547 01:33:18,680 --> 01:33:20,920 Speaker 1: been a core of what I've been thinking of in 1548 01:33:21,000 --> 01:33:23,240 Speaker 1: terms of our own hunting community. But then the folks 1549 01:33:23,280 --> 01:33:26,680 Speaker 1: within it and without um, it's hunting. I'll just say 1550 01:33:26,720 --> 01:33:35,040 Speaker 1: it plainly, it's hunting. Selfish, selfless, or both. All efforts 1551 01:33:35,040 --> 01:33:43,840 Speaker 1: to maintain our own lives are selfish. Evolution has provided 1552 01:33:43,880 --> 01:33:48,960 Speaker 1: each living thing, no matter what their level of intelligence 1553 01:33:49,680 --> 01:33:58,200 Speaker 1: or cognitive capacity, with a drive to live and well. 1554 01:33:59,200 --> 01:34:04,240 Speaker 1: The cricket or the gannet diving for fish, or the 1555 01:34:04,280 --> 01:34:08,840 Speaker 1: whale eating shrimp. I don't think they think very much 1556 01:34:08,880 --> 01:34:12,360 Speaker 1: about whether they're being selfish or not, but they are 1557 01:34:12,439 --> 01:34:16,439 Speaker 1: driven to undertake this acquisition of things they need to survive. 1558 01:34:16,800 --> 01:34:20,360 Speaker 1: I think human beings have this buried in them, no 1559 01:34:20,560 --> 01:34:25,800 Speaker 1: differently than any other species on the planet. Um. So 1560 01:34:25,880 --> 01:34:32,679 Speaker 1: I think um in that to that extent, yes, every 1561 01:34:32,760 --> 01:34:40,160 Speaker 1: undertaking in the acquisition of resources is selfish. I leave 1562 01:34:40,200 --> 01:34:42,760 Speaker 1: aside for the moment whether one thinks that is morally 1563 01:34:43,280 --> 01:34:51,200 Speaker 1: wrong or right, But evolutionarily, there's no question that each animal. 1564 01:34:51,320 --> 01:34:55,720 Speaker 1: Each organism strives to live as long as possible, and 1565 01:34:55,840 --> 01:34:58,479 Speaker 1: we see this as lives come to an end. People 1566 01:34:59,080 --> 01:35:05,040 Speaker 1: struggle to stay alive for good reason. Um, I'm not 1567 01:35:05,120 --> 01:35:09,360 Speaker 1: sure what you would mean by self less In other words, 1568 01:35:09,479 --> 01:35:14,519 Speaker 1: are used trying to examine whether we do this only 1569 01:35:14,600 --> 01:35:17,439 Speaker 1: to benefit others? Do you mean it in that kind 1570 01:35:17,439 --> 01:35:20,040 Speaker 1: of an altruistic sense or what what do you mean 1571 01:35:20,040 --> 01:35:25,479 Speaker 1: by selfless conservation? I think we we often I think 1572 01:35:25,520 --> 01:35:29,639 Speaker 1: some of folks that don't understand our our worldview might 1573 01:35:29,720 --> 01:35:33,960 Speaker 1: say that as we present this selfless, this rather selfless 1574 01:35:34,120 --> 01:35:38,680 Speaker 1: idea that by killing one animal and participating in, you know, 1575 01:35:38,680 --> 01:35:42,759 Speaker 1: our model conservation, that we may um want to apply 1576 01:35:42,880 --> 01:35:46,840 Speaker 1: value to those animals, but also benefit the greater whole. 1577 01:35:46,920 --> 01:35:51,080 Speaker 1: So if i'm you know, if I'm saying hunting, this 1578 01:35:51,120 --> 01:35:54,200 Speaker 1: is a very abstract way to put this, it's selfless 1579 01:35:54,240 --> 01:35:57,080 Speaker 1: in that way, like there is a grand a grander 1580 01:35:57,120 --> 01:36:02,280 Speaker 1: benefit to the you know, the participation of what we 1581 01:36:02,479 --> 01:36:05,680 Speaker 1: might call sporner pursuit however you call it, And so 1582 01:36:05,880 --> 01:36:08,400 Speaker 1: selfless is maybe not the best best term, but the 1583 01:36:08,400 --> 01:36:11,280 Speaker 1: idea of there's a there's a larger benefit to your 1584 01:36:11,400 --> 01:36:14,840 Speaker 1: to that undertaking. Yes, I mean in that sense, I 1585 01:36:14,880 --> 01:36:19,040 Speaker 1: totally agree. Look, one of the things that the world 1586 01:36:19,080 --> 01:36:22,559 Speaker 1: is going to have to get over if we're going 1587 01:36:22,600 --> 01:36:25,840 Speaker 1: to keep wildlife with us at all, they're going to 1588 01:36:25,920 --> 01:36:28,479 Speaker 1: have to get over the idea that there's only one way. 1589 01:36:30,360 --> 01:36:35,280 Speaker 1: There are many ways to conserve nature. We need protected 1590 01:36:35,320 --> 01:36:40,360 Speaker 1: areas in some instances. There's no question we need dramatic intervention. 1591 01:36:40,400 --> 01:36:43,320 Speaker 1: In some circumstances, like, for example, if we're losing the 1592 01:36:43,320 --> 01:36:45,880 Speaker 1: coral reefs, we need to do extraordinary things there, and 1593 01:36:45,920 --> 01:36:49,719 Speaker 1: that might mean displacing everybody, fishermen and everybody else who's 1594 01:36:49,760 --> 01:36:54,760 Speaker 1: out there to to to to sustain these incredible ecosystems. 1595 01:36:55,800 --> 01:37:00,160 Speaker 1: But we also need to have sustainable programs or sustainable 1596 01:37:00,200 --> 01:37:02,880 Speaker 1: approaches to the harvest of wildlife when billions of people 1597 01:37:02,920 --> 01:37:05,400 Speaker 1: in the world are engaged on it and dependent upon it. 1598 01:37:06,640 --> 01:37:09,719 Speaker 1: And I may not agree with all of those kinds 1599 01:37:09,720 --> 01:37:15,400 Speaker 1: of things in every particular instance, but we know that 1600 01:37:15,479 --> 01:37:21,400 Speaker 1: we need every possible mechanism in the short, the medium, 1601 01:37:21,479 --> 01:37:24,519 Speaker 1: and the long term if we are to have any 1602 01:37:24,640 --> 01:37:30,480 Speaker 1: chance of keeping wild others with us. In my lifetime, 1603 01:37:30,760 --> 01:37:36,479 Speaker 1: I have seen in the completely unindustrialized very much still 1604 01:37:36,600 --> 01:37:41,519 Speaker 1: wild place where I live. I have seen massive losses 1605 01:37:41,560 --> 01:37:48,479 Speaker 1: of wildlife, of shore birds, of passerines, of insects. I 1606 01:37:48,560 --> 01:37:51,280 Speaker 1: don't have the explanations for all of these patterns, but 1607 01:37:51,320 --> 01:37:54,680 Speaker 1: I do know that those patterns are real. And if 1608 01:37:54,720 --> 01:37:58,120 Speaker 1: someone comes to me tomorrow and says, Shane, you know, 1609 01:37:58,680 --> 01:38:03,840 Speaker 1: I can demonstrate to you that if half the communities 1610 01:38:03,880 --> 01:38:08,000 Speaker 1: in Newfoundland turn vegan, we would be able to enhance 1611 01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:11,400 Speaker 1: biodiversity in the long term, I'd say I'm with you. 1612 01:38:13,439 --> 01:38:16,360 Speaker 1: If somebody comes to me and says, I believe that 1613 01:38:16,439 --> 01:38:20,920 Speaker 1: the harvesting of an elephant in an African country is 1614 01:38:20,960 --> 01:38:26,960 Speaker 1: beneficial because it provides money to communities, saves helps protect habitat, 1615 01:38:27,520 --> 01:38:32,479 Speaker 1: and and in this particular point in time, enables us 1616 01:38:32,520 --> 01:38:37,040 Speaker 1: to to sustain larger numbers and diversity of wildlife and 1617 01:38:37,040 --> 01:38:39,400 Speaker 1: so on and so forth, then I'm in favor of that. 1618 01:38:40,320 --> 01:38:42,080 Speaker 1: If someone comes to me and says, we need to 1619 01:38:42,120 --> 01:38:45,120 Speaker 1: shut down the cod fishery because if we don't do that, 1620 01:38:45,240 --> 01:38:46,800 Speaker 1: we're going to have nothing left and we're going to 1621 01:38:46,880 --> 01:38:50,240 Speaker 1: destroy an ecosystem, I'm in favor of that. The reason 1622 01:38:50,280 --> 01:38:53,160 Speaker 1: I called my organization Conservation Visions in the Poor is 1623 01:38:53,200 --> 01:38:56,080 Speaker 1: because anybody who tries to tell me that there's one 1624 01:38:56,160 --> 01:38:59,640 Speaker 1: vision and one mechanism only to keep wildlife with us 1625 01:38:59,760 --> 01:39:04,840 Speaker 1: is it's an imbecilic viewpoint. I'm sorry. We need we 1626 01:39:04,920 --> 01:39:07,960 Speaker 1: need the views of indigenous peoples and rural peoples and 1627 01:39:07,960 --> 01:39:12,400 Speaker 1: and urban nights and philanthropists on every side of the divide, 1628 01:39:12,400 --> 01:39:14,760 Speaker 1: those who want to protect all wildlife and those who 1629 01:39:14,760 --> 01:39:17,760 Speaker 1: want to encourage sustainable use of wildlife. And we need 1630 01:39:17,800 --> 01:39:20,800 Speaker 1: to be picking out the very best of those ideas 1631 01:39:20,840 --> 01:39:23,760 Speaker 1: and applying them. And the world is a big place, 1632 01:39:23,800 --> 01:39:28,240 Speaker 1: spen it has vastly different circumstances for the wildlife and 1633 01:39:28,320 --> 01:39:31,439 Speaker 1: the people living in those places. There is absolutely no 1634 01:39:31,520 --> 01:39:35,600 Speaker 1: way to bring the Montana model to some place in Tanzania, 1635 01:39:36,280 --> 01:39:39,160 Speaker 1: or to bring the Newfoundland concept of how we live 1636 01:39:39,280 --> 01:39:42,599 Speaker 1: with our massive seabird colonies and have always lived with 1637 01:39:42,640 --> 01:39:45,920 Speaker 1: them within within spitting distance of our coast. We could 1638 01:39:45,920 --> 01:39:49,360 Speaker 1: have wiped them all out centuries ago, yet we still 1639 01:39:49,439 --> 01:39:54,120 Speaker 1: have the greatest concentration of seabird colonies in the northwest Atlantic. 1640 01:39:54,520 --> 01:39:58,360 Speaker 1: Why is it because Newfoundlanders didn't hunt their maniacal hunters. 1641 01:39:58,360 --> 01:40:02,120 Speaker 1: They're fanatical hunters, but we didn't destroy those colonies. I mean, 1642 01:40:02,120 --> 01:40:04,400 Speaker 1: there's all kinds of examples to show where people can 1643 01:40:04,760 --> 01:40:08,360 Speaker 1: do these kinds of things and maintain diversity. So for me, 1644 01:40:09,320 --> 01:40:14,200 Speaker 1: you know, this whole divide, it's inevitable that people take sides. 1645 01:40:14,360 --> 01:40:17,880 Speaker 1: It's part of who we are as human beings, it seems. 1646 01:40:17,880 --> 01:40:21,599 Speaker 1: But to me, when people start to reflect on it, 1647 01:40:21,640 --> 01:40:24,919 Speaker 1: to suggest that we don't need all these different approaches 1648 01:40:24,960 --> 01:40:28,640 Speaker 1: to conservation just does not make any sense. And I 1649 01:40:28,680 --> 01:40:35,439 Speaker 1: don't believe that. You know, every hunter that goes out 1650 01:40:35,479 --> 01:40:39,360 Speaker 1: there is thinking as his primary motivation or her primary motivation. 1651 01:40:39,400 --> 01:40:41,760 Speaker 1: You know, this is a great thing I'm doing for 1652 01:40:41,920 --> 01:40:46,160 Speaker 1: humanity and for the entire wildlife troop that's out there. 1653 01:40:46,880 --> 01:40:50,960 Speaker 1: You know, there are what's happening with the conservation model 1654 01:40:51,040 --> 01:40:54,640 Speaker 1: that we have erected in North America is that the 1655 01:40:54,720 --> 01:40:59,519 Speaker 1: selfish motivation of the individual can be turned to great 1656 01:40:59,560 --> 01:41:04,760 Speaker 1: good and benefit a majority. That's the small sparkle of 1657 01:41:04,840 --> 01:41:08,400 Speaker 1: genius in that approach, And it is no different in 1658 01:41:08,439 --> 01:41:11,040 Speaker 1: some ways than pointing out the fact that if you 1659 01:41:11,160 --> 01:41:16,640 Speaker 1: incentivize rural people's, indigenous or otherwise in other parts of 1660 01:41:16,680 --> 01:41:21,400 Speaker 1: the world to view wildlife as having value, that they 1661 01:41:21,400 --> 01:41:24,960 Speaker 1: will work then to keep that wildlife with them. That 1662 01:41:25,120 --> 01:41:28,000 Speaker 1: is a selfish response on their part, it benefits me, 1663 01:41:28,320 --> 01:41:31,080 Speaker 1: therefore I will keep it. But the benefit to the 1664 01:41:31,080 --> 01:41:35,320 Speaker 1: world could be the survival of lions in the wild 1665 01:41:36,120 --> 01:41:40,160 Speaker 1: or elephants. Yeah, I love I love the U say 1666 01:41:40,200 --> 01:41:43,519 Speaker 1: that the benefits of the world because as I see, 1667 01:41:44,439 --> 01:41:46,719 Speaker 1: as I've kind of really sat down and thought about 1668 01:41:47,600 --> 01:41:51,640 Speaker 1: again to return to the animal rights side, it's a 1669 01:41:51,720 --> 01:41:55,599 Speaker 1: selfless They believe a selfless ideology, like a selfless world 1670 01:41:55,680 --> 01:42:01,120 Speaker 1: view where they're giving up something in order to save 1671 01:42:01,360 --> 01:42:04,559 Speaker 1: something or end suffering or again, as I said, with 1672 01:42:04,600 --> 01:42:08,640 Speaker 1: some of the more cogent thinkers in that sect, like 1673 01:42:08,960 --> 01:42:13,760 Speaker 1: end unnecessary suffering. And so as I go back to that, 1674 01:42:13,760 --> 01:42:19,439 Speaker 1: that's a that's a very selfless idea. But then compared 1675 01:42:19,479 --> 01:42:23,760 Speaker 1: to you know, the villager in rural Africa doing the 1676 01:42:23,880 --> 01:42:27,360 Speaker 1: very selfish thing right, which is killing that elephant that's 1677 01:42:27,360 --> 01:42:30,840 Speaker 1: trampling their crops, I think it returns to what we're 1678 01:42:30,920 --> 01:42:33,559 Speaker 1: discussing earlier about the economics of it and how we 1679 01:42:33,600 --> 01:42:38,080 Speaker 1: can all kind of process it's where you are your 1680 01:42:38,120 --> 01:42:41,080 Speaker 1: relationship with the wildlife on a on a micro level 1681 01:42:41,120 --> 01:42:43,800 Speaker 1: that affects your your benefit to the world. As you 1682 01:42:43,880 --> 01:42:46,320 Speaker 1: just said, you know, how can you function within the 1683 01:42:46,360 --> 01:42:50,880 Speaker 1: greater world, which which I think is um why I 1684 01:42:50,960 --> 01:42:54,040 Speaker 1: love talking with you about the North American model because 1685 01:42:54,040 --> 01:42:56,679 Speaker 1: it's so interesting on so many levels. That it works 1686 01:42:56,720 --> 01:43:00,479 Speaker 1: at all is amazing both on a legis lative and 1687 01:43:00,600 --> 01:43:05,000 Speaker 1: governmental side, and that has existed for as long as 1688 01:43:05,000 --> 01:43:09,160 Speaker 1: it has and and maybe even more interesting. Do you 1689 01:43:09,240 --> 01:43:12,599 Speaker 1: think the North American model? I know you've thought about this. 1690 01:43:12,920 --> 01:43:17,559 Speaker 1: How would you how would you judge it's ability to 1691 01:43:17,560 --> 01:43:21,320 Speaker 1: be transported to other other places, other countries, other nations, 1692 01:43:21,320 --> 01:43:25,479 Speaker 1: other societies. Yeah, I mean I I do think about 1693 01:43:25,520 --> 01:43:29,679 Speaker 1: this because again, you know, my life is directed towards 1694 01:43:29,760 --> 01:43:32,720 Speaker 1: trying to find things that work for wildlife. So when 1695 01:43:32,760 --> 01:43:35,000 Speaker 1: you find something, of course, you know, if you think 1696 01:43:35,000 --> 01:43:37,240 Speaker 1: it's good, then you you naturally want to share it 1697 01:43:37,280 --> 01:43:40,240 Speaker 1: and you want to explain to people the benefits it 1698 01:43:40,280 --> 01:43:45,320 Speaker 1: as brought. But I don't think it's realistic to hope that, 1699 01:43:46,160 --> 01:43:49,400 Speaker 1: or even strive for Why would we um that we 1700 01:43:49,439 --> 01:43:52,360 Speaker 1: could take the North American model and simply transplanted to 1701 01:43:52,360 --> 01:43:55,759 Speaker 1: other parts of the world. But what we can do 1702 01:43:56,160 --> 01:43:58,960 Speaker 1: is to show how the North American model has worked, 1703 01:43:59,000 --> 01:44:02,640 Speaker 1: and to show why has worked and why fundamentally it 1704 01:44:02,680 --> 01:44:07,080 Speaker 1: has worked is because we gave wildlife a value, and 1705 01:44:07,160 --> 01:44:10,760 Speaker 1: we found a citizenry, and not just hunters, but a 1706 01:44:10,800 --> 01:44:14,720 Speaker 1: broader citizenry that cared for it and largely came to 1707 01:44:14,800 --> 01:44:18,960 Speaker 1: care for it. In the context of our United States 1708 01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:22,840 Speaker 1: Canada partnership in the model, largely came to care for 1709 01:44:22,880 --> 01:44:26,360 Speaker 1: it as a symbol of their countries. That that that 1710 01:44:26,479 --> 01:44:30,080 Speaker 1: wild sheep on a mountaintop meant something to the country, 1711 01:44:30,160 --> 01:44:33,759 Speaker 1: that elk in alpine meadows meant something to a country, 1712 01:44:33,800 --> 01:44:37,519 Speaker 1: That that that wild runs of fish meant something, that 1713 01:44:37,520 --> 01:44:41,920 Speaker 1: that that pristine landscapes mean something. I mean, I think 1714 01:44:42,000 --> 01:44:46,479 Speaker 1: that providing evidence to the world that where countries can 1715 01:44:46,600 --> 01:44:49,439 Speaker 1: develop a sense that their wildlife is part of their 1716 01:44:49,479 --> 01:44:53,519 Speaker 1: cultural legacy, part of their nationhood. I think where we 1717 01:44:53,560 --> 01:44:57,080 Speaker 1: can show evidence for that, it encourages other places in 1718 01:44:57,080 --> 01:45:00,600 Speaker 1: the world to do likewise, and so ports them in 1719 01:45:00,640 --> 01:45:03,439 Speaker 1: their choice of developing models that are based on those 1720 01:45:03,520 --> 01:45:09,040 Speaker 1: kinds of values. People in wildlife have to share and 1721 01:45:09,160 --> 01:45:13,960 Speaker 1: ultimately do share a common history, and they also share 1722 01:45:14,600 --> 01:45:20,600 Speaker 1: a common destiny. Our fate is entwined, and so providing 1723 01:45:20,640 --> 01:45:25,720 Speaker 1: systems of valuation that lead to successful conservation that is 1724 01:45:25,760 --> 01:45:29,800 Speaker 1: the critical thing we seek. They may be different in 1725 01:45:29,960 --> 01:45:32,800 Speaker 1: different parts of the world and how they are implemented 1726 01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:35,760 Speaker 1: and how they look. But ultimately that is what we 1727 01:45:35,880 --> 01:45:40,640 Speaker 1: are looking for, the systems that work, and ultimately to 1728 01:45:40,760 --> 01:45:45,080 Speaker 1: understand the values that underlie those systems, because because it 1729 01:45:45,160 --> 01:45:49,520 Speaker 1: is the values ultimately that are responsible for the architecture 1730 01:45:49,920 --> 01:45:54,200 Speaker 1: and the sustainability of the conservation systems that are developed. Yeah, 1731 01:45:54,360 --> 01:45:58,000 Speaker 1: that's why I always returned to my own personal examinations 1732 01:45:58,000 --> 01:46:00,880 Speaker 1: of this as wildlife as a public trust is is 1733 01:46:00,960 --> 01:46:03,200 Speaker 1: really the lynch pin of the model. I don't know 1734 01:46:03,240 --> 01:46:04,960 Speaker 1: if you agree with that, but that's just something I've 1735 01:46:04,960 --> 01:46:09,400 Speaker 1: always returned to because that idea, this idea that if 1736 01:46:09,439 --> 01:46:12,760 Speaker 1: you own land, you don't own the animals that may 1737 01:46:12,920 --> 01:46:16,320 Speaker 1: travel on that land, on that earth, the idea that 1738 01:46:16,360 --> 01:46:19,200 Speaker 1: we all are kind of contributing to this is really 1739 01:46:19,240 --> 01:46:22,120 Speaker 1: just just like the underpinnings of the values that you're 1740 01:46:22,120 --> 01:46:25,720 Speaker 1: talking about, Right, that is true for our system then, 1741 01:46:26,640 --> 01:46:29,680 Speaker 1: But then let's look at a system such as um 1742 01:46:30,040 --> 01:46:36,439 Speaker 1: South Africa's, for example, where indisputably it has been the 1743 01:46:36,520 --> 01:46:44,040 Speaker 1: private landowner model that once turned to viewing wildlife as 1744 01:46:44,760 --> 01:46:47,720 Speaker 1: the sort of engine of their prosperity and engine of 1745 01:46:47,760 --> 01:46:51,759 Speaker 1: their opportunity. It was those private landowners and that private 1746 01:46:51,840 --> 01:46:54,800 Speaker 1: landowning system that led to the recovery of their wildlife. 1747 01:46:54,840 --> 01:46:59,479 Speaker 1: There are you is conservants is conservancy is kind of 1748 01:46:59,520 --> 01:47:02,240 Speaker 1: at the core that not not in South Africa and 1749 01:47:02,320 --> 01:47:06,960 Speaker 1: South Africa. In other African countries, conservancies are in some cases, 1750 01:47:07,640 --> 01:47:12,519 Speaker 1: But in South Africa it was purely private landowners who 1751 01:47:12,920 --> 01:47:17,840 Speaker 1: made the switch from raising, under what were marginal circumstances 1752 01:47:18,400 --> 01:47:21,800 Speaker 1: agricultural species or domestic species such as cattle and goats 1753 01:47:21,840 --> 01:47:26,200 Speaker 1: and sheep, and moved into returning Africa's wildlife to these 1754 01:47:26,200 --> 01:47:29,840 Speaker 1: private lands, which was essentially responsible for the recovery of 1755 01:47:29,840 --> 01:47:33,600 Speaker 1: wildlife there. And this is why I say what we 1756 01:47:33,720 --> 01:47:37,479 Speaker 1: share between that system and our system is that there 1757 01:47:37,520 --> 01:47:41,080 Speaker 1: was a value, an intrinsic value given, and that the 1758 01:47:41,720 --> 01:47:45,479 Speaker 1: people saw a value in having wildlife on their land. 1759 01:47:46,560 --> 01:47:49,599 Speaker 1: Our system in North America, of course, is vastly different. 1760 01:47:50,520 --> 01:47:56,080 Speaker 1: While we do have private land examples of conservation. Clearly 1761 01:47:57,200 --> 01:47:59,599 Speaker 1: the wildlife itself, as you point out, is a public 1762 01:47:59,640 --> 01:48:04,600 Speaker 1: trust resource and people are not given ownership of those animals. 1763 01:48:04,640 --> 01:48:08,920 Speaker 1: But in South Africa that's quite different. And yet there 1764 01:48:08,960 --> 01:48:12,280 Speaker 1: was a choice in South Africa between a landscape devoid 1765 01:48:12,320 --> 01:48:16,920 Speaker 1: of African wildlife, all the iconic animals and the land 1766 01:48:16,960 --> 01:48:21,160 Speaker 1: filled with domestic species, or a land that was filled 1767 01:48:21,200 --> 01:48:25,160 Speaker 1: with wildlife living in their natural habitats and providing incentives 1768 01:48:25,200 --> 01:48:30,120 Speaker 1: for people through economic return to keep wildlife with it. Oh, 1769 01:48:30,360 --> 01:48:33,760 Speaker 1: if you're asking me which which one I prefer? I 1770 01:48:34,000 --> 01:48:38,200 Speaker 1: come from Newfoundland. I prefer the publicist side of things. 1771 01:48:39,280 --> 01:48:42,559 Speaker 1: You know, you're in Montana. You want you want, you want. 1772 01:48:42,600 --> 01:48:46,759 Speaker 1: That systems totally understandable and it's worked. So why would 1773 01:48:46,760 --> 01:48:51,240 Speaker 1: we why would we try to move towards privatization of 1774 01:48:51,280 --> 01:48:57,400 Speaker 1: wildlife in a system that has worked for a hundred years. Yeah, 1775 01:48:57,800 --> 01:49:00,240 Speaker 1: we're returns of what your point earlier, which is very 1776 01:49:00,320 --> 01:49:03,080 Speaker 1: much that it depends on where you live and the 1777 01:49:03,120 --> 01:49:07,040 Speaker 1: circumstances and kind of the cultural you know, touch points 1778 01:49:07,080 --> 01:49:09,240 Speaker 1: in the history of where where you come from, as 1779 01:49:09,280 --> 01:49:11,639 Speaker 1: to how you can prescribe the best thing for wildlife, 1780 01:49:11,680 --> 01:49:14,280 Speaker 1: which is kind of the beauty and the struggle of 1781 01:49:14,320 --> 01:49:19,559 Speaker 1: conservation I imagine in and of itself and in many ways. Um, 1782 01:49:19,600 --> 01:49:21,240 Speaker 1: and as I don't you know, I want to get 1783 01:49:21,280 --> 01:49:24,280 Speaker 1: to the book and and we talked about the TC 1784 01:49:24,400 --> 01:49:26,880 Speaker 1: book club, and UM, it's important to me to have 1785 01:49:27,680 --> 01:49:31,120 Speaker 1: your book with val Geist, which is just simply entitled 1786 01:49:31,120 --> 01:49:35,680 Speaker 1: The North American Model of Wildlife Conservation UM as the 1787 01:49:35,720 --> 01:49:37,960 Speaker 1: first book in in this club that hopefully all our 1788 01:49:37,960 --> 01:49:41,360 Speaker 1: listeners will read together UM well, and we'll come back 1789 01:49:41,360 --> 01:49:44,120 Speaker 1: with you and and hopefully we could talk to val 1790 01:49:44,200 --> 01:49:48,559 Speaker 1: Geist as well. But I often think about, you know, people, 1791 01:49:48,720 --> 01:49:50,439 Speaker 1: people have challenge and I know you're aware of this 1792 01:49:50,560 --> 01:49:53,920 Speaker 1: kind of like the structural points of the North American 1793 01:49:53,920 --> 01:49:57,479 Speaker 1: model and the timeliness of it, how it how it 1794 01:49:57,479 --> 01:49:59,719 Speaker 1: will continue into the future. And that's okay. We should 1795 01:49:59,720 --> 01:50:03,719 Speaker 1: definitely only um we should definitely pressure test any system 1796 01:50:03,960 --> 01:50:07,439 Speaker 1: that we have UM within conservation or any other part 1797 01:50:08,120 --> 01:50:10,880 Speaker 1: of our of our world. But what what I tried 1798 01:50:10,920 --> 01:50:12,760 Speaker 1: to explain to people and why I love it so 1799 01:50:12,840 --> 01:50:15,160 Speaker 1: much and why, as I said earlier, I become a 1800 01:50:15,240 --> 01:50:17,880 Speaker 1: zealot of it in some strange ways because of the 1801 01:50:18,320 --> 01:50:22,360 Speaker 1: things that are beneath the structure of the tenants of 1802 01:50:22,760 --> 01:50:25,040 Speaker 1: the model, which is what you've talked about so eloquently, 1803 01:50:25,640 --> 01:50:28,519 Speaker 1: is the value systems and the reverence and all the 1804 01:50:28,600 --> 01:50:31,559 Speaker 1: things that are baked in the fact that that came 1805 01:50:31,680 --> 01:50:34,960 Speaker 1: from the thinking minds of the elite, and it has 1806 01:50:35,000 --> 01:50:38,480 Speaker 1: been transferred in a lot of ways to rural communities 1807 01:50:38,600 --> 01:50:42,240 Speaker 1: and and everybody in this country. And so that's why 1808 01:50:42,320 --> 01:50:44,360 Speaker 1: I love it so much. That's why I talk about 1809 01:50:44,400 --> 01:50:47,519 Speaker 1: it and and instruct everyone that will talk to me 1810 01:50:47,560 --> 01:50:49,519 Speaker 1: to go and read about it and learn about it, 1811 01:50:49,760 --> 01:50:51,600 Speaker 1: not only because of the way it's set up, but 1812 01:50:52,280 --> 01:50:56,240 Speaker 1: how it's lasted over time, why these ideas have kind 1813 01:50:56,240 --> 01:51:00,840 Speaker 1: of transferred and lived in um, how the ability to 1814 01:51:02,160 --> 01:51:06,480 Speaker 1: cross generations of different thinkers in different places in in 1815 01:51:06,479 --> 01:51:09,439 Speaker 1: in our continent. So that's what I think of the 1816 01:51:09,439 --> 01:51:11,960 Speaker 1: beauty of it is. Does that does that reflect what 1817 01:51:12,000 --> 01:51:13,800 Speaker 1: you think? Or is are deeper even? Is it either 1818 01:51:14,080 --> 01:51:16,880 Speaker 1: even deeper still than than that point? Well, I don't 1819 01:51:16,920 --> 01:51:19,040 Speaker 1: know if it's deeper, but I mean, I think you 1820 01:51:19,680 --> 01:51:24,160 Speaker 1: raise some excellent points, man. I mean when you consider 1821 01:51:24,280 --> 01:51:27,680 Speaker 1: that the transformations that have taken place in Canadian and 1822 01:51:27,720 --> 01:51:33,160 Speaker 1: American society US society since say nineteen or since eighteen 1823 01:51:33,200 --> 01:51:35,960 Speaker 1: eighty seven, for example, when the Boone Crocker Club was formed, 1824 01:51:36,120 --> 01:51:38,920 Speaker 1: or the turn of the century, the twentieth century when 1825 01:51:38,960 --> 01:51:41,320 Speaker 1: the cra Club was born, and you go on through 1826 01:51:42,160 --> 01:51:45,000 Speaker 1: you know, the long periods of change, the First World War, 1827 01:51:45,160 --> 01:51:48,599 Speaker 1: the Second World War, the depression, you know, I mean, 1828 01:51:48,680 --> 01:51:52,080 Speaker 1: all of the things that have happened, Um, from a 1829 01:51:52,200 --> 01:51:54,920 Speaker 1: society that didn't really know what an airplane was, the 1830 01:51:54,960 --> 01:51:57,400 Speaker 1: one that buzzes around and jets all over the world. 1831 01:51:57,439 --> 01:51:59,679 Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Is I mean, they really 1832 01:51:59,720 --> 01:52:03,120 Speaker 1: have been transformative changes that have taken place, and yet 1833 01:52:03,120 --> 01:52:07,240 Speaker 1: the basic approach and principles and value systems in the 1834 01:52:07,280 --> 01:52:11,800 Speaker 1: North American model have been maintained. Um. The miracle of 1835 01:52:11,800 --> 01:52:15,920 Speaker 1: the model there there are several First of all, that 1836 01:52:16,040 --> 01:52:20,400 Speaker 1: it arose at all. Because when it arose the idea 1837 01:52:20,760 --> 01:52:23,320 Speaker 1: that we should all just have free and open access 1838 01:52:23,320 --> 01:52:25,960 Speaker 1: to wildlife, kill as much as we want, make as 1839 01:52:26,040 --> 01:52:28,240 Speaker 1: much money as we possibly could from it, at so on, 1840 01:52:28,400 --> 01:52:31,519 Speaker 1: that was fully consistent with the American and and settler 1841 01:52:31,640 --> 01:52:35,360 Speaker 1: view in both countries. I have come here to escape restrictions. 1842 01:52:35,439 --> 01:52:38,280 Speaker 1: I have come here to make my own way. My 1843 01:52:38,400 --> 01:52:41,720 Speaker 1: country even tells me that my independence and my you know, 1844 01:52:41,880 --> 01:52:44,800 Speaker 1: my my capacity to create wealth and so on and 1845 01:52:44,800 --> 01:52:47,000 Speaker 1: so forth, is what actually makes me an American or 1846 01:52:47,040 --> 01:52:50,080 Speaker 1: a Canadian or whatever. And therefore, you know, I should 1847 01:52:50,080 --> 01:52:52,639 Speaker 1: have this drive to do these kinds of things. There 1848 01:52:52,640 --> 01:52:56,320 Speaker 1: were so many well established industries that depended directly on 1849 01:52:56,439 --> 01:52:59,599 Speaker 1: this idea of the freewheeling sale and marketing of whether 1850 01:52:59,600 --> 01:53:02,439 Speaker 1: it was eat or feathers or skins or whatever it 1851 01:53:02,520 --> 01:53:06,040 Speaker 1: might have been. It wasn't as though you know, a 1852 01:53:06,080 --> 01:53:10,720 Speaker 1: few you know, well dressed intellectuals out of the American northeast, 1853 01:53:10,760 --> 01:53:14,639 Speaker 1: you know, came down and sort of offered up something 1854 01:53:14,720 --> 01:53:17,360 Speaker 1: that was easy to accept. I mean, there was a 1855 01:53:17,400 --> 01:53:20,519 Speaker 1: lot of opposition to this, uh. And there was a 1856 01:53:20,520 --> 01:53:23,320 Speaker 1: lot of fatalism on the part of even the founders. 1857 01:53:23,360 --> 01:53:26,720 Speaker 1: They they they did not know it would work brilliantly. 1858 01:53:27,880 --> 01:53:31,160 Speaker 1: They just were determined to try something. I mean, the 1859 01:53:31,200 --> 01:53:34,360 Speaker 1: original exhibition of heads and horns at the Boone and 1860 01:53:34,360 --> 01:53:37,080 Speaker 1: Crockett Club assembled was to tell the people of the 1861 01:53:37,160 --> 01:53:39,599 Speaker 1: United States of America, come come and look at what 1862 01:53:39,640 --> 01:53:43,280 Speaker 1: you're You're going to lose it. This this stuff is gone. 1863 01:53:43,720 --> 01:53:47,040 Speaker 1: You're not going to have it anymore. Uh. And yet 1864 01:53:47,400 --> 01:53:50,240 Speaker 1: they fought for what they believed was the only way 1865 01:53:50,280 --> 01:53:54,080 Speaker 1: to successfully bring that back, which was to basically tell everybody, 1866 01:53:54,520 --> 01:53:57,120 Speaker 1: none of you on it, except you all on it. 1867 01:53:57,560 --> 01:54:00,160 Speaker 1: And it was kind of a bizarre thing in a 1868 01:54:00,160 --> 01:54:04,920 Speaker 1: lot of ways. It's a hippie idea. You go from 1869 01:54:05,120 --> 01:54:09,360 Speaker 1: rugged individualism and manifest destiny which is baked into you know, 1870 01:54:10,120 --> 01:54:13,200 Speaker 1: even even the forward thinkers who created this, like Roosevelt, 1871 01:54:13,240 --> 01:54:15,920 Speaker 1: those things were baked into their own lives the way 1872 01:54:15,920 --> 01:54:19,680 Speaker 1: that they came to that point. And yeah, I so 1873 01:54:19,840 --> 01:54:22,320 Speaker 1: imagine there's something like they're reversing their own thinking to 1874 01:54:22,400 --> 01:54:25,200 Speaker 1: come come to this in the face of great loss. Well, 1875 01:54:25,240 --> 01:54:27,439 Speaker 1: I think they did what all people who care about 1876 01:54:27,479 --> 01:54:31,600 Speaker 1: something deeply do. They're willing to challenge their own worldviews. 1877 01:54:31,680 --> 01:54:36,760 Speaker 1: And remember that these blue bloods, uh like Roosevelt and 1878 01:54:36,840 --> 01:54:39,000 Speaker 1: pin Show and so on. I mean, you know, they 1879 01:54:39,040 --> 01:54:41,600 Speaker 1: never ever had to worry about their own personal hunting 1880 01:54:41,640 --> 01:54:44,920 Speaker 1: experiences or times of field. They were guaranteed to be 1881 01:54:44,960 --> 01:54:46,840 Speaker 1: able to enjoy them for the rest of their lives 1882 01:54:46,920 --> 01:54:51,960 Speaker 1: and probably their children and their grandchildren. Um. So, the 1883 01:54:52,000 --> 01:54:57,879 Speaker 1: second miracle of the model was that that they managed 1884 01:54:57,920 --> 01:55:03,440 Speaker 1: to convince the American people that this resource, these these 1885 01:55:03,480 --> 01:55:10,720 Speaker 1: wild things, that these wild things were part of American 1886 01:55:10,920 --> 01:55:14,400 Speaker 1: legacy and inheritance, and that if you wanted to call 1887 01:55:14,480 --> 01:55:17,120 Speaker 1: yourself an American citizen or a Canadian, you would work 1888 01:55:17,160 --> 01:55:20,240 Speaker 1: to protect them. Now, so what they did as well, 1889 01:55:20,320 --> 01:55:23,840 Speaker 1: the second miracle not only that they overcame the opposition 1890 01:55:23,920 --> 01:55:27,840 Speaker 1: and brought in a transformative narrative. They linked that narrative 1891 01:55:28,280 --> 01:55:33,400 Speaker 1: in a very unexpected way to the whole idea of nationhood. 1892 01:55:34,440 --> 01:55:36,640 Speaker 1: This was this was the second act of genius in 1893 01:55:36,680 --> 01:55:39,640 Speaker 1: the model that that most people just just forget about. 1894 01:55:39,680 --> 01:55:42,520 Speaker 1: I mean, they would say, we don't have the louver. 1895 01:55:43,760 --> 01:55:48,480 Speaker 1: We we don't have the amazing monasteries or the amazing 1896 01:55:48,520 --> 01:55:51,400 Speaker 1: cathedrals and the amazing art galleries of Europe. What we 1897 01:55:51,480 --> 01:55:55,840 Speaker 1: have are these things, and we will protect them, just 1898 01:55:56,040 --> 01:55:59,040 Speaker 1: as Europe has protected these legacies of art and literature 1899 01:55:59,080 --> 01:56:01,160 Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. That was the second 1900 01:56:01,160 --> 01:56:04,880 Speaker 1: act of genius. And the third act whether many, but 1901 01:56:05,040 --> 01:56:08,960 Speaker 1: another active genius, of course, was to find something that 1902 01:56:09,720 --> 01:56:17,000 Speaker 1: had value systems that could translate over multiple changes in society. 1903 01:56:18,240 --> 01:56:22,440 Speaker 1: You know, when Teddy Roosevelt left the White House, because 1904 01:56:22,480 --> 01:56:25,760 Speaker 1: of course, conservation is very politicized all over the world. 1905 01:56:25,960 --> 01:56:28,520 Speaker 1: Was politicized in your country, it's politicized here in Canada's 1906 01:56:28,520 --> 01:56:34,160 Speaker 1: politicized everywhere. When Teddy Roosevelt left the White House, you know, 1907 01:56:34,960 --> 01:56:37,600 Speaker 1: there were a vast majority of people that were very 1908 01:56:37,600 --> 01:56:41,600 Speaker 1: happy to see him go. But we need to ask 1909 01:56:41,600 --> 01:56:47,920 Speaker 1: ourselves why when he was so criticized by members of 1910 01:56:47,960 --> 01:56:51,440 Speaker 1: his own party and people in in the other party. 1911 01:56:51,600 --> 01:56:54,160 Speaker 1: For the things that he did, like his national forests 1912 01:56:54,160 --> 01:56:56,360 Speaker 1: and his national parks and all those kinds of things 1913 01:56:56,360 --> 01:57:00,680 Speaker 1: he did. We have to ask ourselves why, right up 1914 01:57:00,760 --> 01:57:07,800 Speaker 1: until this year of no president, no Congress has really 1915 01:57:08,720 --> 01:57:10,600 Speaker 1: people have toyed with it and plucked at it and 1916 01:57:10,640 --> 01:57:16,600 Speaker 1: done various things, but no one has overturned those basic ideas. 1917 01:57:18,560 --> 01:57:21,520 Speaker 1: Why was that. It wasn't because they didn't want to 1918 01:57:21,600 --> 01:57:26,760 Speaker 1: politically lots of times. It's because somehow that value system 1919 01:57:26,840 --> 01:57:30,640 Speaker 1: got completely embedded, even in the American public that we 1920 01:57:30,720 --> 01:57:34,160 Speaker 1: think don't really care, but try and take it from 1921 01:57:34,200 --> 01:57:40,120 Speaker 1: them and then see if they care. These are absolutely 1922 01:57:41,680 --> 01:57:47,400 Speaker 1: extraordinary things. And without those extraordinary things, I can assure 1923 01:57:47,440 --> 01:57:49,320 Speaker 1: you that you would not have the wildlife in your 1924 01:57:49,360 --> 01:57:51,960 Speaker 1: country that you have today in either would Canada, and 1925 01:57:52,000 --> 01:57:54,560 Speaker 1: you certainly wouldn't have the opportunities that you have in 1926 01:57:54,600 --> 01:57:56,960 Speaker 1: Montana to go harvest that wildlife to feed you and 1927 01:57:57,040 --> 01:57:59,840 Speaker 1: your family. Yeah. It might sound trying to explain it 1928 01:58:00,000 --> 01:58:02,800 Speaker 1: this way, but as you said, your planes flying overhead, 1929 01:58:02,840 --> 01:58:06,880 Speaker 1: we're talking on microphones. Uh, you're in Newfoundland, I'm in 1930 01:58:06,920 --> 01:58:09,520 Speaker 1: Montana and we're talking via microphones and headphones that we 1931 01:58:09,520 --> 01:58:12,320 Speaker 1: can see each other. You know, a hundred years ago 1932 01:58:12,480 --> 01:58:16,160 Speaker 1: that would have been uh, it would maybe not even 1933 01:58:16,160 --> 01:58:19,080 Speaker 1: a sci fi movie. But the same ideas that were 1934 01:58:19,120 --> 01:58:22,160 Speaker 1: written down on parchment. And you know, like I said, 1935 01:58:22,160 --> 01:58:23,480 Speaker 1: it might sound trying to say they wrote it with 1936 01:58:23,520 --> 01:58:28,560 Speaker 1: a feather, but hey, whatever that that has has somehow 1937 01:58:28,640 --> 01:58:31,800 Speaker 1: been transported to to this conversation. So like that is 1938 01:58:32,000 --> 01:58:36,520 Speaker 1: it's um. It's an amazing idea, UM, and an amazing 1939 01:58:36,520 --> 01:58:41,600 Speaker 1: set of principles to be malleable yet so stringent to 1940 01:58:41,600 --> 01:58:44,640 Speaker 1: to the generations and the passage of time. So it's 1941 01:58:44,680 --> 01:58:47,919 Speaker 1: it's it's great. And across the diversity of the country 1942 01:58:47,920 --> 01:58:49,960 Speaker 1: has been I mean, if you look at your country 1943 01:58:50,000 --> 01:58:51,920 Speaker 1: and you look at Canada and moved from coast to 1944 01:58:51,960 --> 01:58:57,760 Speaker 1: coast and north to south, there's an enormous cultural diversity. 1945 01:58:59,160 --> 01:59:03,800 Speaker 1: You know, the countries value systems that that you know, 1946 01:59:04,040 --> 01:59:07,480 Speaker 1: I mean, people in different regions of the country feel 1947 01:59:07,520 --> 01:59:13,680 Speaker 1: differently about different things, vehemently so uh. And yet this 1948 01:59:13,760 --> 01:59:17,960 Speaker 1: basic approach has been carried out by every state and 1949 01:59:18,120 --> 01:59:23,760 Speaker 1: every province for a century. I mean. And then of 1950 01:59:23,800 --> 01:59:25,880 Speaker 1: course that approach, this is the other one of the 1951 01:59:25,920 --> 01:59:29,240 Speaker 1: other acts of genius was this early recognition of the 1952 01:59:29,320 --> 01:59:34,400 Speaker 1: need for international treaties. I mean, we talked about conventions 1953 01:59:34,400 --> 01:59:39,800 Speaker 1: on biodiversity and and Brunklin Reports, and conventions on migratory 1954 01:59:39,840 --> 01:59:42,320 Speaker 1: species and things of this nature. My goodness, these are 1955 01:59:42,360 --> 01:59:46,560 Speaker 1: these are these are these are juveniles? Now we we 1956 01:59:46,560 --> 01:59:50,120 Speaker 1: we have a system of treaties such as the Migratory 1957 01:59:50,120 --> 01:59:53,760 Speaker 1: Bird Convention and Act that that's a hundred years old. 1958 01:59:54,720 --> 01:59:56,960 Speaker 1: A hundred years ago they were talking about the need 1959 01:59:57,000 --> 01:59:59,800 Speaker 1: to manage ducks flying back and forth between our two countries. 1960 01:59:59,800 --> 02:00:04,080 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it's unbelievable. There was only a 1961 02:00:04,120 --> 02:00:07,360 Speaker 1: small population of of of white settlers living west of 1962 02:00:07,400 --> 02:00:11,480 Speaker 1: the Mississippi. Yeah, here we are a smacking. Here we 1963 02:00:11,520 --> 02:00:13,640 Speaker 1: are a smack and duck stamps on our licenses. Like 1964 02:00:13,680 --> 02:00:16,160 Speaker 1: that's how it is. That's how it has always been, 1965 02:00:16,200 --> 02:00:19,720 Speaker 1: you know. There there is Yeah, a lot of extraordinary things. 1966 02:00:19,960 --> 02:00:22,040 Speaker 1: I've always have been astounded kind of the separation that 1967 02:00:22,080 --> 02:00:24,360 Speaker 1: we've allowed. You know that that somebody can buy a 1968 02:00:24,440 --> 02:00:28,080 Speaker 1: hunting regulations manual or booklet as what however we'll call 1969 02:00:28,160 --> 02:00:30,800 Speaker 1: him each year, and that there isn't some some treaty 1970 02:00:31,080 --> 02:00:32,760 Speaker 1: listed out that says like look, at all the things 1971 02:00:32,760 --> 02:00:34,800 Speaker 1: that happened to get to this point, Like you can't 1972 02:00:34,840 --> 02:00:37,080 Speaker 1: don't don't turn your page and see how many turkeys 1973 02:00:37,120 --> 02:00:40,320 Speaker 1: you can kill in your region without first reading first 1974 02:00:40,320 --> 02:00:43,080 Speaker 1: center saying some perspective of how this came to be, 1975 02:00:43,160 --> 02:00:46,960 Speaker 1: however brief you could summarize it. I've always always wondered 1976 02:00:46,960 --> 02:00:49,360 Speaker 1: about that and thought that that's some sort of mistakes, 1977 02:00:49,400 --> 02:00:52,160 Speaker 1: so that that that that brings me to I think 1978 02:00:52,200 --> 02:00:53,960 Speaker 1: what I want to do, and I always talked about 1979 02:00:53,960 --> 02:00:56,240 Speaker 1: this briefly. I've wanted to start a book club for 1980 02:00:56,280 --> 02:00:59,920 Speaker 1: some time. Many of of our guests um this thing, 1981 02:01:00,000 --> 02:01:04,640 Speaker 1: wished and maybe some not so distingished, have books UM, 1982 02:01:04,680 --> 02:01:06,600 Speaker 1: and we all kind of read them together, but we 1983 02:01:06,680 --> 02:01:09,760 Speaker 1: never our listeners will read them together, but we never 1984 02:01:09,760 --> 02:01:12,160 Speaker 1: really put anything around it. I think it would only 1985 02:01:12,160 --> 02:01:15,960 Speaker 1: be right to start with your book with Dr Val Guys, 1986 02:01:16,000 --> 02:01:18,840 Speaker 1: who's also been on the show The North American Model 1987 02:01:18,920 --> 02:01:22,880 Speaker 1: Wildlife Conservation. UM. I'm gonna ask for no other reason 1988 02:01:22,960 --> 02:01:24,920 Speaker 1: than I think I know a lot of people are 1989 02:01:24,960 --> 02:01:27,240 Speaker 1: financially on hard times, but for no other reason that 1990 02:01:27,320 --> 02:01:30,640 Speaker 1: I think this is an inspirational work, not only the book, 1991 02:01:30,680 --> 02:01:34,160 Speaker 1: but just the idea that we've discussed here. Um, I'd 1992 02:01:34,160 --> 02:01:36,320 Speaker 1: like to ask our listeners to to read that book 1993 02:01:36,320 --> 02:01:39,040 Speaker 1: with me. I've already read it um at one and 1994 02:01:39,040 --> 02:01:41,240 Speaker 1: a half. I'm almost done my second read through it, 1995 02:01:41,280 --> 02:01:44,520 Speaker 1: but I will read it again with our listeners, sort 1996 02:01:44,520 --> 02:01:47,320 Speaker 1: as you have to go out and purchase it, um 1997 02:01:47,480 --> 02:01:49,960 Speaker 1: and then Shane, you can tell us it's available for 1998 02:01:50,080 --> 02:01:54,080 Speaker 1: everywhere books are sold Amazon, different places, right, Yeah, I 1999 02:01:54,120 --> 02:01:57,200 Speaker 1: mean it's published through Johns Hopkins University Press, so I 2000 02:01:57,200 --> 02:02:00,520 Speaker 1: mean that's the primary source, but I mean anyone can 2001 02:02:00,520 --> 02:02:04,400 Speaker 1: get it from them kind of thing, so it is available. 2002 02:02:05,720 --> 02:02:10,160 Speaker 1: One one very interesting thing about this book too, which 2003 02:02:10,200 --> 02:02:17,960 Speaker 1: I think is somewhat controversial but certainly topical and something 2004 02:02:18,000 --> 02:02:20,760 Speaker 1: that your listeners will want to weigh in on if 2005 02:02:20,800 --> 02:02:26,200 Speaker 1: they do read the book. Um, there is a there 2006 02:02:26,280 --> 02:02:28,400 Speaker 1: is a strong mention made in the book, in the 2007 02:02:28,400 --> 02:02:33,160 Speaker 1: opening chapter, in particular about you know, what might be 2008 02:02:33,280 --> 02:02:36,640 Speaker 1: vacancies in the model or whatever. And I'm asked that 2009 02:02:36,720 --> 02:02:41,440 Speaker 1: question a lot, and I talked a little bit there 2010 02:02:41,440 --> 02:02:45,600 Speaker 1: in that first chapter about what we lost when we 2011 02:02:45,720 --> 02:02:50,600 Speaker 1: lost the Native American cultures and what we might have 2012 02:02:50,800 --> 02:02:56,120 Speaker 1: learned had those Native American cultures been left to thrive. 2013 02:02:56,320 --> 02:03:01,680 Speaker 1: And been intact and so long, because the history is 2014 02:03:01,720 --> 02:03:05,400 Speaker 1: what the history is. But it shouldn't blind us to 2015 02:03:05,440 --> 02:03:10,800 Speaker 1: the fact that those nations of people, every single one 2016 02:03:10,800 --> 02:03:14,120 Speaker 1: of them, had developed extraordinary capacities to live in nature 2017 02:03:15,360 --> 02:03:18,040 Speaker 1: all over the breadth of Canada in the United States, 2018 02:03:18,080 --> 02:03:21,880 Speaker 1: you know, hundreds of different languages and cultures that were 2019 02:03:22,960 --> 02:03:25,960 Speaker 1: absolutely amazing. And while we may, some of us, pride 2020 02:03:25,960 --> 02:03:30,160 Speaker 1: ourselves on being able hunters today, we might reflect back 2021 02:03:30,240 --> 02:03:32,680 Speaker 1: on what it was to be like as a hunter 2022 02:03:32,800 --> 02:03:36,280 Speaker 1: when you were tossing a stone tipped arrow as your 2023 02:03:36,880 --> 02:03:41,640 Speaker 1: primary means of attaining your prey and so forth. And unfortunately, 2024 02:03:42,520 --> 02:03:50,320 Speaker 1: for political, cultural, social, ethnic reasons, UM, that is not 2025 02:03:50,480 --> 02:03:54,040 Speaker 1: part of the North American model, and in my view 2026 02:03:54,080 --> 02:03:58,000 Speaker 1: it is undoubtedly the greatest vacancy we have. Yeah, I 2027 02:03:58,040 --> 02:04:00,920 Speaker 1: would agree, and that's often in modern times yere with 2028 02:04:00,960 --> 02:04:04,080 Speaker 1: the ideas of social justice and some of the more 2029 02:04:04,200 --> 02:04:08,240 Speaker 1: progressive attacks on you know, what America is. I guess 2030 02:04:08,240 --> 02:04:11,280 Speaker 1: in our own history, I tend to just think of 2031 02:04:11,280 --> 02:04:14,000 Speaker 1: it this way, just like as you have said there, 2032 02:04:14,040 --> 02:04:15,840 Speaker 1: I mean that the North American model is this, this 2033 02:04:16,120 --> 02:04:20,960 Speaker 1: born from UM, the idea that we needed to change 2034 02:04:21,520 --> 02:04:25,200 Speaker 1: and do it better and put some structure around wildlife 2035 02:04:25,240 --> 02:04:30,000 Speaker 1: and cohabitation and value. And so there is this history 2036 02:04:30,840 --> 02:04:33,360 Speaker 1: on the back end of that, you know, for the 2037 02:04:33,440 --> 02:04:36,280 Speaker 1: century prior to that, where we were building to that 2038 02:04:36,360 --> 02:04:40,800 Speaker 1: moment um, and a lot of things that weren't so 2039 02:04:40,840 --> 02:04:46,760 Speaker 1: good happened during during that century. Um, there's no question. Yeah, 2040 02:04:46,840 --> 02:04:49,000 Speaker 1: and we can only acknowledge it. It's not to say 2041 02:04:49,000 --> 02:04:51,080 Speaker 1: that America isn't a wonderful place to live in a 2042 02:04:51,120 --> 02:04:55,600 Speaker 1: great place and a product of many nuanced happenings that 2043 02:04:55,880 --> 02:05:00,280 Speaker 1: both good and bad, shameful and and prideful. So you know, 2044 02:05:00,320 --> 02:05:04,840 Speaker 1: I I always want to preface those types of ideas 2045 02:05:04,880 --> 02:05:08,960 Speaker 1: with this. We're not here to set anything, but like 2046 02:05:09,000 --> 02:05:11,520 Speaker 1: here's here's history, and here's what happened, and here's how 2047 02:05:11,560 --> 02:05:14,040 Speaker 1: you can learn and move from. And I think what 2048 02:05:14,160 --> 02:05:16,000 Speaker 1: you just said is a good example of that. You know, 2049 02:05:16,160 --> 02:05:18,520 Speaker 1: this model that we're talking about such a great, long 2050 02:05:18,600 --> 02:05:22,080 Speaker 1: lasting thing. Kind of what it's missing is is some 2051 02:05:23,000 --> 02:05:26,760 Speaker 1: of the prior decades um that led to that. You know, 2052 02:05:26,920 --> 02:05:30,160 Speaker 1: it's void, it's void of it. So, um, it's a 2053 02:05:30,280 --> 02:05:33,920 Speaker 1: nice way to dichotomize and think of of our history. 2054 02:05:34,200 --> 02:05:35,880 Speaker 1: That So that's I appreciate. I know you and I 2055 02:05:35,880 --> 02:05:38,400 Speaker 1: have long talked about putting something together on just Native 2056 02:05:38,400 --> 02:05:41,360 Speaker 1: American wildlife conservation, and it's still long to do that 2057 02:05:41,440 --> 02:05:44,520 Speaker 1: with you at some point in the future, but as 2058 02:05:44,520 --> 02:05:46,320 Speaker 1: long as you're okay with it, Like I said, I'm not. 2059 02:05:47,400 --> 02:05:49,080 Speaker 1: I just want to make it clear, I'm not profiting 2060 02:05:49,120 --> 02:05:51,320 Speaker 1: from this in any way. I don't want to, UM, 2061 02:05:51,760 --> 02:05:55,200 Speaker 1: I want I just believe in in you know, the 2062 02:05:55,280 --> 02:05:57,960 Speaker 1: book in general is a it's a vehicle for my 2063 02:05:58,040 --> 02:06:01,240 Speaker 1: belief in the model UM and what we've already discussed. 2064 02:06:01,280 --> 02:06:04,200 Speaker 1: So I'm hoping that many readers can go out and 2065 02:06:04,200 --> 02:06:07,480 Speaker 1: buy that book and read it with us. Hopefully, Shane, 2066 02:06:07,560 --> 02:06:10,160 Speaker 1: you're you're okay with us coming back and roughly a 2067 02:06:10,200 --> 02:06:14,200 Speaker 1: month here UM and and we will certainly try to 2068 02:06:14,280 --> 02:06:17,560 Speaker 1: track down val Geist as well. Coming back and having 2069 02:06:17,760 --> 02:06:19,880 Speaker 1: a recording where we just talk about the book. We'll 2070 02:06:19,920 --> 02:06:23,080 Speaker 1: go through it UM and we'll talk about how you 2071 02:06:23,120 --> 02:06:25,240 Speaker 1: came to to want to put it together, how it 2072 02:06:25,360 --> 02:06:28,360 Speaker 1: was put together, and then and then the final result. 2073 02:06:28,480 --> 02:06:33,000 Speaker 1: And we'll ask our readers and listeners both to to 2074 02:06:33,080 --> 02:06:36,640 Speaker 1: participate and ask some questions and and write reviews of 2075 02:06:36,680 --> 02:06:39,560 Speaker 1: the book and and and we'll really all Hopefully together 2076 02:06:39,640 --> 02:06:41,920 Speaker 1: at least it will feel like together be able to 2077 02:06:41,960 --> 02:06:44,600 Speaker 1: examine the work and and and see where we land. 2078 02:06:46,240 --> 02:06:48,560 Speaker 1: You know, I absolutely delighted to do it, and I 2079 02:06:50,080 --> 02:06:53,000 Speaker 1: thank you for for taking on this idea. Not just 2080 02:06:53,080 --> 02:06:57,880 Speaker 1: about this particular book, but one of my goals over 2081 02:06:57,960 --> 02:07:01,200 Speaker 1: my career, through speaking and writing a great deal in 2082 02:07:01,320 --> 02:07:05,920 Speaker 1: both our countries, has been to try to convince our community, 2083 02:07:06,800 --> 02:07:09,640 Speaker 1: and by that community I mean anybody who cares about wildlife, 2084 02:07:09,640 --> 02:07:13,360 Speaker 1: including of course our community of hunters and anglers, to 2085 02:07:13,480 --> 02:07:17,440 Speaker 1: become more knowledgeable of their history and more knowledgeable of 2086 02:07:17,680 --> 02:07:22,280 Speaker 1: why they have the opportunities they do today. Because if 2087 02:07:22,280 --> 02:07:25,520 Speaker 1: you don't know and understand what it took to get 2088 02:07:25,560 --> 02:07:29,120 Speaker 1: you here, you're in a much more precarious position. You 2089 02:07:29,160 --> 02:07:32,800 Speaker 1: can lose what you have or fail to understand how 2090 02:07:32,840 --> 02:07:36,080 Speaker 1: you can protect it if you don't understand the efforts 2091 02:07:36,080 --> 02:07:38,000 Speaker 1: that were made to set it up in the first place. 2092 02:07:38,840 --> 02:07:41,640 Speaker 1: You know, a movement is like a country. You keep 2093 02:07:41,640 --> 02:07:45,280 Speaker 1: it vibrant and and working by what you invest in it, 2094 02:07:46,040 --> 02:07:50,400 Speaker 1: not by what you take from it. Yeah, yeah, profoundly said. Yeah. 2095 02:07:51,040 --> 02:07:54,600 Speaker 1: Hopefully everyone can take take the ideas we discussed, even 2096 02:07:54,680 --> 02:07:57,960 Speaker 1: in this time of COVID and understand that you know, 2097 02:07:58,000 --> 02:08:01,720 Speaker 1: an examination of this model is kind uh exactly that 2098 02:08:01,760 --> 02:08:04,160 Speaker 1: we've all kind of reflected as we started off here, 2099 02:08:04,160 --> 02:08:06,720 Speaker 1: we talked about reflection. It's a good time to reflect 2100 02:08:06,760 --> 02:08:09,000 Speaker 1: on and and if your value system includes hunting and 2101 02:08:09,040 --> 02:08:12,640 Speaker 1: going outside and loving wildlife, then you have, in my opinion, 2102 02:08:12,680 --> 02:08:16,160 Speaker 1: at least you should really dive into this and reflect 2103 02:08:16,240 --> 02:08:20,120 Speaker 1: upon it so you can move forward. Um. Well, let's 2104 02:08:20,120 --> 02:08:23,520 Speaker 1: also hope to ben that some people who are not 2105 02:08:23,640 --> 02:08:28,360 Speaker 1: in favor of hunting and who are uh sort of 2106 02:08:28,360 --> 02:08:31,480 Speaker 1: not in line with the models thinking also participated this 2107 02:08:31,680 --> 02:08:33,960 Speaker 1: and offer us up some challenges that we can do. 2108 02:08:34,560 --> 02:08:36,640 Speaker 1: That's perfect. Yeah, I mean the good thing for you 2109 02:08:36,720 --> 02:08:39,640 Speaker 1: listeners out there that I'm asking to purchase this book 2110 02:08:39,640 --> 02:08:41,880 Speaker 1: and get it shipped to your house and read it. 2111 02:08:41,920 --> 02:08:43,800 Speaker 1: That you'll share it with your family members that maybe 2112 02:08:43,800 --> 02:08:47,880 Speaker 1: you aren't hunters, your wives, your husband's, your cousins, your friends, 2113 02:08:47,920 --> 02:08:50,440 Speaker 1: your neighbors, share it with them. Maybe not the book, 2114 02:08:50,480 --> 02:08:54,840 Speaker 1: but share the ideas. UM, pass it around and bring 2115 02:08:54,840 --> 02:08:59,680 Speaker 1: to the discussion next time we join Shane. UM some 2116 02:08:59,760 --> 02:09:03,040 Speaker 1: really hard questions for us to to to dance around 2117 02:09:03,120 --> 02:09:06,320 Speaker 1: and try to answer. Um, think about it. Hard come 2118 02:09:06,360 --> 02:09:11,120 Speaker 1: at us or Shane looks ready, I'm ready, um to 2119 02:09:11,120 --> 02:09:14,160 Speaker 1: to really tackle some tough questions and some tough lines 2120 02:09:14,160 --> 02:09:18,360 Speaker 1: of thinking and critical critical as they need to be. Um. 2121 02:09:18,400 --> 02:09:20,040 Speaker 1: I think it'll be fun. I look forward to it. 2122 02:09:20,240 --> 02:09:22,040 Speaker 1: We're gonna do that with lots of books in the future, 2123 02:09:22,040 --> 02:09:23,960 Speaker 1: but Shane, I'm very glad to do it with with 2124 02:09:24,080 --> 02:09:29,640 Speaker 1: your book. UM up first, well, thank you very much. 2125 02:09:29,680 --> 02:09:32,680 Speaker 1: We're very proud, and I'm sure Dr Guist will be 2126 02:09:33,840 --> 02:09:36,240 Speaker 1: very eager to participate as well. He always is. And 2127 02:09:36,240 --> 02:09:39,920 Speaker 1: of course never forget that it was valarious Guist who 2128 02:09:40,000 --> 02:09:42,440 Speaker 1: came up with that term in the first instance. That's 2129 02:09:42,440 --> 02:09:44,800 Speaker 1: all right, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna be calling him. Maybe 2130 02:09:44,880 --> 02:09:47,760 Speaker 1: he's over there on the opposite end of the from you. 2131 02:09:48,480 --> 02:09:52,120 Speaker 1: I wanna I want to on an island as well, 2132 02:09:52,200 --> 02:09:55,120 Speaker 1: So maybe that's maybe that's a common thread that you 2133 02:09:55,160 --> 02:10:00,200 Speaker 1: guys both picked the islands or books or that's you are. 2134 02:10:00,320 --> 02:10:02,320 Speaker 1: So we'll get ahold of him and hopefully he'll take part. 2135 02:10:02,680 --> 02:10:04,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure he'll, like you said, have a comment either way, 2136 02:10:05,720 --> 02:10:07,800 Speaker 1: and I look forward to to next time. Shane. I 2137 02:10:07,800 --> 02:10:11,160 Speaker 1: really appreciate everything the thoughts, Um. They're both inspiring, and 2138 02:10:11,200 --> 02:10:14,400 Speaker 1: sightful and thanks for taking the time to be part 2139 02:10:14,400 --> 02:10:17,160 Speaker 1: of this little program as many times as you have. Okay, 2140 02:10:17,280 --> 02:10:21,000 Speaker 1: thanks pretty much, Ben, Good luck to you. Thank you, Shane, Bye, 2141 02:10:21,080 --> 02:10:34,520 Speaker 1: go Wilcome. That's it. That is all. Another episode in 2142 02:10:34,560 --> 02:10:38,320 Speaker 1: the books. Thanks to Miles Nolte, Thanks to Shane Mahoney. 2143 02:10:38,320 --> 02:10:41,760 Speaker 1: Thanks to you Phil Ty engineer for hanging in there 2144 02:10:41,760 --> 02:10:44,640 Speaker 1: with us. We had a lot of technical difficulties with 2145 02:10:44,720 --> 02:10:49,680 Speaker 1: Squadcast not a sponsor um getting into the Shane Mahoney interview. Yeah, 2146 02:10:49,720 --> 02:10:51,760 Speaker 1: it was a it was a it was a nightmare. 2147 02:10:51,800 --> 02:10:55,960 Speaker 1: It was a guy like a nightmare podcast, not not 2148 02:10:56,040 --> 02:11:00,360 Speaker 1: a fucking sponsor in this case. Here is to bring 2149 02:11:00,440 --> 02:11:03,760 Speaker 1: you behind the scenes a little bit. We had Shane 2150 02:11:03,760 --> 02:11:08,000 Speaker 1: was having surprised with his computer, then his headphones, and 2151 02:11:08,040 --> 02:11:11,640 Speaker 1: then we got that gone and we finally crested the 2152 02:11:12,080 --> 02:11:15,760 Speaker 1: ridge too to really be where we could actually record, 2153 02:11:15,920 --> 02:11:19,760 Speaker 1: and then Squadcast wasn't recording Shane, and then we had 2154 02:11:19,760 --> 02:11:21,920 Speaker 1: to like restart to see if that would work. And 2155 02:11:21,960 --> 02:11:23,680 Speaker 1: then we restarted Shane had to get up to go 2156 02:11:23,760 --> 02:11:26,440 Speaker 1: to the bathroom and came back his headphones didn't work, 2157 02:11:26,520 --> 02:11:30,000 Speaker 1: so we had to restart it again, and then like 2158 02:11:30,240 --> 02:11:32,640 Speaker 1: Phil had to do some Jerry rigging magic on how 2159 02:11:32,680 --> 02:11:35,520 Speaker 1: we actually recorded the podcast. We recorded in eight different 2160 02:11:35,520 --> 02:11:38,160 Speaker 1: programs at once. Phil, you want to try to help 2161 02:11:38,200 --> 02:11:40,160 Speaker 1: people understand. Yeah, I know, I had it. Yeah. I 2162 02:11:40,160 --> 02:11:43,480 Speaker 1: eventually had to take a laptop and have a series 2163 02:11:43,520 --> 02:11:46,959 Speaker 1: of wires connecting it to another computer that was recording 2164 02:11:47,280 --> 02:11:50,360 Speaker 1: in a different program. It was It was fun. I mean, 2165 02:11:50,360 --> 02:11:53,960 Speaker 1: it was a learning experience and I'll cherish it forever. 2166 02:11:56,000 --> 02:11:58,920 Speaker 1: It was also Mother's Day, and so Phil and I 2167 02:11:59,000 --> 02:12:01,960 Speaker 1: were and you know, Jane, we're all away from our families, 2168 02:12:02,040 --> 02:12:04,160 Speaker 1: and it's like we really had to do it on 2169 02:12:04,240 --> 02:12:06,680 Speaker 1: that day. So like that this the stress was there, 2170 02:12:07,680 --> 02:12:10,640 Speaker 1: but hopefully you just listened for a couple of hours 2171 02:12:10,680 --> 02:12:13,800 Speaker 1: and and um our efforts were worth it. Thank you 2172 02:12:13,840 --> 02:12:17,400 Speaker 1: Phil for hanging in there with me during these these times. 2173 02:12:17,720 --> 02:12:24,120 Speaker 1: Of course, next episode, I'm back in the studio, I'm 2174 02:12:24,120 --> 02:12:27,600 Speaker 1: talking to a very uh it's evactly like a very 2175 02:12:27,680 --> 02:12:30,000 Speaker 1: important podcast. We we teased it last week, so I 2176 02:12:30,040 --> 02:12:33,160 Speaker 1: apologize that we pushed it back, but we pushed back. 2177 02:12:33,280 --> 02:12:37,040 Speaker 1: A guy named Brett Bond, whose father Glenn, was attacked 2178 02:12:37,080 --> 02:12:40,760 Speaker 1: by a bear on the Denali Road up there in Alaska. 2179 02:12:42,200 --> 02:12:46,440 Speaker 1: Um In you've probably all We mentioned it last weekend. 2180 02:12:46,440 --> 02:12:49,680 Speaker 1: I'll apologize that we pushed it a week. You've probably 2181 02:12:49,760 --> 02:12:53,040 Speaker 1: seen the images of of Glen Bond. His face is 2182 02:12:53,160 --> 02:12:56,480 Speaker 1: ripped off. Basically, um, there's a video of him talking 2183 02:12:56,600 --> 02:13:00,640 Speaker 1: without a face. The images in the video are gruesome 2184 02:13:01,720 --> 02:13:06,360 Speaker 1: as you could imagine, and they were all over the 2185 02:13:06,400 --> 02:13:09,960 Speaker 1: Internet and they sparked what amounts to over a forty 2186 02:13:10,000 --> 02:13:14,640 Speaker 1: years span, an urban legend. They were attributed to a 2187 02:13:14,680 --> 02:13:16,680 Speaker 1: lot of different places, a lot of different people, a 2188 02:13:16,680 --> 02:13:20,760 Speaker 1: lot of different things, until Brett Bond came forward with 2189 02:13:21,360 --> 02:13:23,840 Speaker 1: what we believe is the true story of those images 2190 02:13:24,280 --> 02:13:27,120 Speaker 1: and how they came to be. It's an amazing story 2191 02:13:27,160 --> 02:13:32,280 Speaker 1: that includes Brett uh heroically saving his father by shooting 2192 02:13:32,320 --> 02:13:36,280 Speaker 1: a bear while it was attacking him, driving on the 2193 02:13:36,280 --> 02:13:41,720 Speaker 1: snow machine back to safety, Glenn Bond refusing any blood transfusions, 2194 02:13:41,760 --> 02:13:50,040 Speaker 1: any pain medications during the ordeal, and medical incarceration is 2195 02:13:50,080 --> 02:13:52,800 Speaker 1: a part of this. The really the story of this 2196 02:13:52,920 --> 02:13:55,720 Speaker 1: family is intertwined with the story of the Spare attack. 2197 02:13:55,800 --> 02:13:58,360 Speaker 1: So next week you're gonna hear all about it. I 2198 02:13:58,480 --> 02:14:00,960 Speaker 1: am very excited for it. I think it's one of 2199 02:14:00,960 --> 02:14:03,080 Speaker 1: the best things we've done. Sam longer. And have you 2200 02:14:03,160 --> 02:14:06,480 Speaker 1: heard on the show, Joe Ferronado. You've certainly heard on 2201 02:14:06,520 --> 02:14:09,480 Speaker 1: the show. Help me with the research, and um, we've 2202 02:14:09,560 --> 02:14:11,720 Speaker 1: uncovered a lot of really amazing parts of this story. 2203 02:14:11,840 --> 02:14:14,320 Speaker 1: So we can't wait to share it with you next 2204 02:14:14,320 --> 02:14:20,120 Speaker 1: week here on the show. Phil. Are you ready? Yeah, 2205 02:14:20,400 --> 02:14:22,880 Speaker 1: I've I've heard um a lot of it and it's 2206 02:14:23,000 --> 02:14:25,920 Speaker 1: it's crazy, it's wild. Yeah. Are you do you want 2207 02:14:25,920 --> 02:14:29,240 Speaker 1: to kind of like hype people up for this, Like 2208 02:14:29,360 --> 02:14:32,280 Speaker 1: from what you've heard, is it, uh the crazy sparit 2209 02:14:32,280 --> 02:14:36,120 Speaker 1: tax story? Does it make you cringe? Where are we averybody? 2210 02:14:36,360 --> 02:14:38,720 Speaker 1: I mean we've we've I've heard a lot in the 2211 02:14:38,760 --> 02:14:42,280 Speaker 1: past year of my life just by you know, proximity 2212 02:14:42,320 --> 02:14:46,520 Speaker 1: to all of you people, you insane people. Um, and 2213 02:14:46,560 --> 02:14:51,320 Speaker 1: this is definitely the most like just the most adrenaline pumping, 2214 02:14:51,440 --> 02:14:54,640 Speaker 1: like horrifying one. I'd say, out of all seen the photos, 2215 02:14:56,040 --> 02:14:58,760 Speaker 1: Uh no, I have, Nick, and I have not brought 2216 02:14:58,800 --> 02:15:02,200 Speaker 1: myself to look at them. Okay, Well, I mean that's 2217 02:15:02,200 --> 02:15:04,280 Speaker 1: what sparked this whole thing there that you know, then 2218 02:15:04,400 --> 02:15:06,440 Speaker 1: of the stuff, you know, how like a controversy becomes 2219 02:15:06,440 --> 02:15:09,600 Speaker 1: more controversial with his video evidence. This is just one 2220 02:15:09,600 --> 02:15:12,000 Speaker 1: of those things. You know, it's something to hear about 2221 02:15:12,000 --> 02:15:14,200 Speaker 1: a bear attack, but to see some of the imagery 2222 02:15:14,320 --> 02:15:17,600 Speaker 1: from the attack, it's just it's mind blowing that like Glenn, 2223 02:15:17,640 --> 02:15:20,200 Speaker 1: Bond and Brett are alive and telling the story to 2224 02:15:20,320 --> 02:15:23,920 Speaker 1: us and walking us through it. So um, not only 2225 02:15:23,960 --> 02:15:25,960 Speaker 1: are we recounting a bear attack here, but we did 2226 02:15:25,960 --> 02:15:29,000 Speaker 1: all We spent lots of hours investigating it and looking 2227 02:15:29,040 --> 02:15:31,720 Speaker 1: into the truth and and really because it became an 2228 02:15:31,800 --> 02:15:34,040 Speaker 1: urban legend and there was so much untruth around it 2229 02:15:34,080 --> 02:15:36,600 Speaker 1: over the years, we wanted to kind of set the 2230 02:15:36,600 --> 02:15:39,720 Speaker 1: record straight do that. With Brett, we we find them 2231 02:15:39,720 --> 02:15:41,440 Speaker 1: to be very credible when to be telling the truth. 2232 02:15:41,520 --> 02:15:44,560 Speaker 1: So I'm very excited for that next week here on 2233 02:15:44,560 --> 02:15:47,360 Speaker 1: the Honey Collective. So stick and stay with us. We 2234 02:15:47,480 --> 02:15:56,240 Speaker 1: look forward to uh cringeworthy but important episode one, right Phil, Yes, 2235 02:15:56,320 --> 02:16:00,040 Speaker 1: that is correct, damn right. We'll see you then by know, 2236 02:16:00,440 --> 02:16:06,160 Speaker 1: because I can't go a week without doing rong, oh 2237 02:16:06,200 --> 02:16:16,520 Speaker 1: without fe roll, drinking out right wrong, drinking in