WEBVTT - The Joy Effect 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:15.000 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ookf Daily with Meet 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:19.079 Your Girl. Daniel Moody recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:24.720 Oh my god, why can't JD. Vance just go away? 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:29.159 Every time there is leaked audio of this man, we 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:33.920 just learn what a fucking weirdo he is. And now 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:38.200 he has turned his attention to childless women who happen 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:41.880 to be teachers. He hates them just like he does 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:46.760 all childless women, but has a particular disdain. It's wild. 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:51.440 It's wild, and Donald Trump goes on doctor Phil and says, well, 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:53.600 you only need to vote this once and then you 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:56.720 never have to worry about voting again, continuing with his 0:00:56.840 --> 0:01:01.720 line around being a dictator. On day one, we know 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:05.240 what the stakes are, we know what the narrative is 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:09.920 that this party is offering. And I just pray each 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:12.920 and every day that the excitement that we are seeing 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:15.959 is going to translate into the votes that are needed 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:20.119 in order to get Harris and Walls over the finish line. 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:23.760 And I mean in an effing landslide, not just by 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:25.760 the skin of our teeth. This needs to be a 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:30.800 decisive victory, one that will be written in the history books, 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:34.200 because I want like you all to be done with 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:38.920 Donald Trump for once and for fucking all. Coming up 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.280 today my conversation with our friend, our in house doctor, 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:46.280 doctor Jonathan Metzil. You'll be surprised by this conversation today 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.400 because Jonathan and I don't see eye to eye on 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:55.240 our thoughts around how the Harris Walls team is expanding 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:59.720 the Big Democratic tent. Jonathan offers some points as to 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:02.440 think said he thinks could be done better, and we 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.840 challenge each other on seeing the other side. So that 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:12.960 conversation is coming up next. Folks. You know that whenever 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:15.720 we have the opportunity to speak with our in house doctor, 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:20.160 doctor Jonathan Metzil, we are always always pleased and happy. 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:24.280 And Jonathan, oh, we even't spoken in over a week 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:26.440 because I was at the DNC. 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:28.720 We did your snazzy podcast last week. 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:31.000 Oh we did. Yeah, we did the other one. We 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.760 did the other one, the New Abnormal. So Jonathan, I 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:37.480 want to get your thoughts even though we are now 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:41.280 days removed from the DNC, But I thought about you 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:46.919 while I was there because of the presentation around victims 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:50.519 of gun violence that brought me to tears and a 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:54.000 lot of people around me in the United Center to tears, 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:56.720 and I just wanted to get your thoughts overall on 0:02:56.840 --> 0:03:01.240 how again we talked about this, how this campaign is 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:03.760 dealing with the gun issue, how you thought that it 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:07.720 was handled during convention and by the time that folks 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.120 listen to this, we will be at less than seventy 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:14.880 days until the election, which is just extraordinary, And how 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:15.520 you're feeling. 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:18.520 First, let me just say that I'm so honored to 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:21.200 be speaking with you here today because you're a star 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:25.120 of stage. On screen, You've been stripping it, spilling it 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.360 across every outlet, Like every outlet, I'm like, oh, there's 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:32.760 Danielle on TV is spreading the love on everything. So first, 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:36.960 awesome job, and I will follow you anywhere whatever you 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:38.840 tell me to do. I am sucking. 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:40.320 I appreciate that. 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:43.360 Now. I have to say, on one hand, of course, 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:48.320 that moment with the guns was incredibly powerful and well 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:51.600 it could have been totally cheesy, actually, but it wasn't. 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:55.640 It felt very very powerful and very urgent, and so 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:58.440 I thought it was handled very well at the convention, 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:01.240 and I think that the message at that moment was 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:05.160 spot on. But I think that there's two sides to 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:08.240 this coin and I'm really struggling with this, which is 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:10.840 that on one hand, I mean, I understand we're seventy 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:14.880 days out and that's huge. Is the issue to rally 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:18.159 our base? If the issue is to rally our base, 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:22.160 then framing guns in that way is important with the 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:25.120 historical caveat that I write about in my book, which 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:28.960 is that Democrats will answer polls saying that they support 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:32.360 gun safety laws, but they don't vote based on them. 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:35.520 And so if they think that there's a new entree 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:39.200 into getting people to vote, to mobilize our people to 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:42.880 vote based on background checks and red flag laws, it 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:46.160 would just be honestly, for a presidential election, like people 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:49.279 vote on a bunch of issues, but it's really Republicans 0:04:49.320 --> 0:04:51.440 that vote out of the fear that Democrats are going 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:54.400 to have the government take away their guns. That will 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:59.039 mobilize Republicans. And so it's a strategy. But my concern 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:03.680 always is that we're using a very saturated playbook that 0:05:03.839 --> 0:05:07.839 in a way, if we're saying all these horrible things happened, 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:13.359 which they did, just searing life changing, life ending, But 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.720 if the only conversation we're having about guns is to 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.159 talk about guns in relation to regulation, which is really 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:26.200 where that conversation ends, or to highlight people I call converts, 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:30.120 people who are like Tim Walls and other people like, Oh, 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:32.800 I'm a gun owner, but I don't believe in the NRA. 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:36.000 It's just that that's a very small sample of a 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.320 much bigger fraction, which is all gun owners. And so 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.240 the question is are the bigger group of gun owners 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.039 going to be moved by this? And so again it's 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:49.320 just a calculated decision that I, honestly, as I've said 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.839 azillion times, have a tremendous amount of concern about because 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:58.120 just from my research and everybody else has other thoughts, 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:00.440 people who are going to vote based on guns are 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:03.039 already voting for Democrats. It's not like you're going to 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:07.160 bring new gun owners into the fold, because I mean, 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:09.120 it was great in my book. I interviewed a guy 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:11.839 and he said, people think, if you just say it differently, 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:14.640 or message differently to me, or say it louder, I'm 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:16.480 going to change my mind. But actually I know what 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:19.600 the goddamn issue is, and I don't want government regulation 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:22.400 of my guns. He's actually somebody who said I probably 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.920 would vote for Democrats, but I don't want government regulating 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:30.400 my guns, and so just saying we respect gun owners 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:35.320 the converts are not representing those people, and so I 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:38.120 don't know. I feel like i'm I know who's advising 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:40.080 Harris on this issue. I know that they have a 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:43.880 very particular agenda which is not mine. I hope they're right. 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:45.960 I hope they're right and I'm wrong. I would welcome that, 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:50.280 But I also think that there's another way to message, which, 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:52.920 as we talked about last week, has to do with 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:56.360 crime and the responsibilities of gun ownership and what it 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:57.920 means to own a gun and the right to own 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:00.920 a gun. That doesn't really change our platform at all, 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.599 but it does speak to those crossover people. And I 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.839 worry that if we're just doing every time for gun 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:10.960 safety and background checks, we're not speaking to those people. 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:14.960 And so the question is, will white voters who are 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:18.400 swing state voters, like, is that an important enough demographic 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:20.680 to speak to their concerns, because we're not doing it 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:21.120 right now. 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:25.240 I wondered too, about how you felt about the law 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:30.000 enforcement officer who walked out on stage, gone on his 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:35.160 hip in full uniform at convention and what you thought 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:39.760 that kind of image was trying to convey as well. 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:43.800 Was that them which was my assumption trying to take 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:47.080 ownership of the law and order narrative as well. 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:51.120 I mean, it's all about like permission structures. I mean, 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:55.360 the question is what does that person represent, right, does 0:07:55.360 --> 0:07:58.240 that person represent the one cop who's willing to come 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.600 to our side, the one cop who's ex sceptible to 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.680 our side, or is it a sign of a bigger trend. Again, 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.480 that's why I worry about, Like, I know, it's a 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.720 big deal to have Republicans speak at the DNC. I 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:12.760 get that, But you know, the question is just what 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:16.480 bigger group do they represent? Is that a statistically significant 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:20.000 representation of a bigger group of Trump supporters? And I 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.440 just haven't quite seen that. And again, maybe that's not important. 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:25.720 So maybe it's important for us to think that this 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:29.000 is important. But I mean, the Liz Chaneys of the world, 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.080 they're not seen as I mean, I just remember the 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:35.520 last time Trump was up for election, number like two 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:39.959 hundred foreign policy experts wrote this guy's a danger to 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:43.240 national security and everybody said, look, these people are, you know, 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:47.120 coming over to our side. Again, I think if we 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:49.839 mobilize our base and broaden our base. To me, that's 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:52.760 a viable goal, and so I support that, But I 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:56.319 guess the question is does that represent a bigger cross 0:08:56.360 --> 0:09:00.160 section of law enforcement or Republicans or gun owners. And 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:02.200 I just think we have to be realistic, Like the 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.800 polls are very very tight right now, and so I 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:08.680 advocate for reaching out to people on the other side, 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:10.960 but maybe mobilizing our base is a better strategy. 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.559 I feel like there was a both and that was happening, 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:18.200 and I think that there is a both and that 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:21.640 is happening with regard to you know, you have two 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:25.000 hundred sam odd Republicans that have come out in a 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:29.240 letter former Romney, McCain and Bush staff that are saying 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:32.600 that they are voting for Kamala Harris, and they did 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:34.520 so in an open letter in the New York Times. 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:36.600 The New York Times will get to in a moment, 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:39.960 because I have my issues with them, But you know, 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.520 you have credible Republicans. And I use the word credible 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:47.480 because I'm just that's the synonym for not crazy. Who 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:51.360 were on stage at the DNC talking about their Republicanism, 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:54.320 like they didn't switch parties, right, but they recognize that 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:57.360 they want to put country over party and so like 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:01.280 to me, I agree you to an extent with the 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:04.640 strategy that you offer in your book what We've Become, 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:07.960 And I agree with the fact that the old tactics 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:11.240 are useful to a point, right, But I think that 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:14.520 they are doing outreach in a different way. Maybe not 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:17.920 on this issue in particular, but I do feel like 0:10:17.960 --> 0:10:24.120 they're doing Republican outreach and independent outreach that shows how 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:27.720 big this tent is. And so the point of contention 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:31.480 may be guns, but they are reaching out to Republicans 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:34.880 on their belief in democracy, right, So like, how do 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:39.000 you see that action, which is something that they've been 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.960 doing since the beginning, since a month into the Harris 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:45.880 Wall's campaign. Versus on this specific issue of. 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:51.400 Guns, it's actually a symptom of a similar kind of issue, 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:55.280 which is I hope we have the biggest geniuses in 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:57.840 the world. I hope there is a strategy. I trust 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:00.400 that there is a great strategy based on this. But 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:03.000 I tell you the times that I get nervous, it's 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:05.839 just we're too concrete and literal at times. And I mean, 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:10.520 we like we maybe, but for example, I feel like 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.120 the RFK going over to Trump is a really big 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:15.720 deal a much bigger deal than people have talked about, 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:18.439 not because of the actual people who were going to 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:23.120 vote for RFK, but because RFK gives a permission structure 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:28.360 for people who are very wary of the government, government intervention, 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.920 government intrusion to vote for Trump even if they don't 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:35.120 like Trump. And so for me, it's actually the downstream 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:40.080 effects of RFK among people who are skeptical or wary 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:43.040 of government because of COVID or because of guns or 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:44.720 things like that. And so I just know from my 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:50.240 own research that messaging about democracy saving democracy, if you're 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:53.240 in that camp of people, you actually don't hear, oh 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:55.920 my god, I'm going to save democracy. You hear these 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.320 fuckers are going to come and make more big government 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:01.319 and regulate my life. And so again the question, this 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:04.800 is the new statistical question, is how important are those 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:08.240 voters or can we overcome those voters. But I will 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:10.079 say that I just feel like I see a lot 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:14.200 of people underestimating the rfkju and your impact, in my opinion, 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:17.640 because there are a lot of people who have become 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:23.199 like deeply skeptical or deeply libertarian or deeply wary, and 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:25.640 what they hear I think and I'm not trying to 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:27.920 speak for anybody. I'm just going off of my interviews. 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:32.040 But what they hear is Harris, everything she's doing me 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:36.319 suggests building more government, more government for healthcare, more government 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:40.199 for gun regulation, more government for everything else. And if 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:42.200 you're in the camp of people who think that's a 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:45.840 really good thing because we should be sharing our resources 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:49.520 and supporting safety nets and you know, moral imperative in 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.840 future of the country, that's amazing. And so I'm only 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:55.240 speaking for the people that I research, and I will 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:58.440 say that for the people I research, they don't think 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:01.160 that more government is the answer to a lot of things. 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:05.760 And so even the issue of democracy, when they hear democracy, 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:09.600 they hear more government programs, more of my money going 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.920 to people that I don't think are deserving, etc. Et cetera. 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:16.240 And I just really trust in the smart people who 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:18.840 are running that campaign to think we have a strategy 0:13:18.920 --> 0:13:20.160 for that, and hopefully we do. 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:22.920 I think that, you know, Jonathan, what I will say 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:25.080 here is that, like, there are people that are just 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:28.559 not going to come over. Yeah, So I don't necessarily 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.640 like I think that your gun strategy point makes sense 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:36.240 in terms of people believe in regulation, but they also 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:40.640 understand that crime is an issue, and so we want 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.559 to be in a place where we can both. I mean, 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:46.760 I don't personally and everybody knows that I don't want 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:49.600 guns in this country at all, So I'm not interested. 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:53.000 I personally am not. But if we are never going 0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:56.160 to overcome that place, then like I want us to 0:13:56.200 --> 0:14:00.160 live in a society where hunters in gun enthusiasts like 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:04.080 understand their responsibility to protect those around them, and so 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:08.200 believe in regulation and believe in the understanding that like 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:11.000 their ability to do what it is that they love 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:16.080 should not put communities at risk. That's my hope and feeling. However, 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:19.680 these libertarians who like, in my opinion, if you were 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:22.800 going to vote for RFK Junior, you're a nutjob. The 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.680 man is anti vax he is anti education, he is 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:30.240 like anti thought, and so I'm not interested in a 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.720 Harris Walls campaign that is trying to get the RFK 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.680 Junior people over to their side. 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:39.600 Right. But let me say, I'm not actually talking about 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:42.200 the RFK Junior people, because I think there aren't a 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:47.120 huge number of them. I'm talking about potentially undecided voters 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.960 in swing states, which is not RFK junior supporters. It's 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:56.000 guys in rural Pennsylvania and their families, and guys in 0:14:56.960 --> 0:15:00.680 Georgia and their families, and so it's really and again 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.280 I'm not saying we should shift our messaging, but I 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:05.920 don't think what I'm suggesting is a huge shift. Like 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:08.080 last week we talked about how I think we should 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:12.160 talk about crime because red flag laws and background checks 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:16.400 don't really dent crime. But if you talked about geop 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:19.480 policies that are raising crime and were anti crime, that's 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:21.000 a different way to talk about the same thing with 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.480 the same thing. A lot of the economic stuff, I 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:26.320 don't think it kills us to also talk about the 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:30.760 importance of entrepreneurialism and capitalism in a way that says 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.080 this is America, and we want people to be rich, 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.000 and we want to help you, support you, all these 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:36.960 kind of things like something like that. Because Trump is 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:39.560 saying the government's I'm not going to take your money. 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:42.960 And if your answer is only people with more than 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:45.720 four hundred thousand dollars are going to blah blah blah, 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:49.320 people just hear that as like, man, that's a negative 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:51.680 incentive for me to get rich. And so Trump is 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:53.920 kind of speaking to a thing. And so I'm just 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:57.600 saying and again, I research like the very very very 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.360 far right people don't talk to me, but the kind 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.760 of like not crazy about one issue or something like that, 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:06.240 who might come to our side. So that again and again, 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:08.680 I hope I'm wrong and I'm just like wasting airtime 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:11.200 right now. But if you're not going to speak to 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:13.320 those people, which again is not a change in strategy, 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.520 it's a change in frame, then you better make sure 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:20.480 that like everybody in Michigan votes for Harris and everybody 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.440 in everywhere else votes for Harris, because you're making a 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:26.120 particular trade off. So do I sound crazy right now? 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:27.240 I'm just right there. 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:29.440 I don't think that you sound crazy. I think that 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:33.120 you're basically saying that like not to leave anything on 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.040 the field, and like, if there are people to convince, 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.200 then think about the ways in which you can convince 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:42.680 those people that Trump is not for them. I'm just 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:47.880 not certain of the level of contortionism that this campaign 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:51.160 has to do to convince people that haven't voted Democrat 0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:53.600 in the last fifty years, and I don't think that 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:56.320 they're ever going to vote Democrat. So I would rather 0:16:56.440 --> 0:17:00.640 not waste energy on the white, rural male vote that 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:04.639 statistically has not voted for a Democrat since like the 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:09.119 nineteen fifties. And then instead of trying to get those 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:13.640 who are aligned with Democratic values, making sure that you're 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.920 getting out the vote and inspiring those people to the polls, 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:19.679 that to me is an absolutely different strategy. 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.639 And again, I hope you're right now wrong, It's just 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:25.399 like I look at the polls, even after all the enthusiasm, 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:30.280 all the momentum the convention, North Carolina, toss up, Michigan, 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:32.640 very very close, Georgia. 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.359 But we're never going to see Jonathan. We're never going 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.280 to see blowout polls Like that's just not the world 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:40.399 that we live in. Like she's never going there's not 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:42.919 going to be a Democrat that is going to be 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:47.080 up like ten percentage point five percentage points. That's not 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:48.800 the world that we live in. But the fact that 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:53.720 those places that are notably read are now toss ups 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:58.080 shows us that momentum is in fact building because in 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:02.479 twenty sixteen, those places or blood red right. And so 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:06.200 the fact is is that Biden turned some of those 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.440 places purple by a little bit of a margin because 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:13.320 of COVID and so many people dying. But the fact 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:18.080 that Harris, four weeks into this campaign, with seventy days 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:21.639 to go, that those red places are toss ups is 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:24.920 a win for Democrats. And you know me, I don't 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:30.480 love Poles. With a couple of minutes that we have left, 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:32.840 I do want to switch gears and put on your 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:36.600 psychiatrist's hat, because I want to talk about the joy 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:41.800 effect and what it is that people who call themselves 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:45.440 opinion writers in the New York Times are doing this 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:49.280 week and what mainstream corporate media has been doing for 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:51.560 the last several weeks, which is saying things to the 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:55.240 effect of joy is not a strategy. Donald Trump can 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:59.240 still win on character and attacking the joy angle, as 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:03.120 if joy alone is not what the American people need 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:06.440 according to Lindsay Graham, and Americans are not joyful according 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:11.640 to Lindsay Graham, What do you make of the psychological 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:16.920 impact of joy versus fear and how people have been 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:20.520 reacting over the last month versus over the last eight 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:21.760 years of trump Ism. 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:25.879 Well, I'm all for joy, you know, bring on the joy. 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.280 And I'm actually right now I don't want to see 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:33.000 any media outlets close right now, because we need everybody 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:35.080 on board to get the word out. I will say 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.000 that what I think about is, on one hand, there 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:40.960 is something very positive about feeling like you're on the 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:44.040 winning team. You know, we see this in sports. People 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:46.879 have fewer heart attacks after their teams win and stuff 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:49.840 like that. And so, you know, we saw the Obama 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:53.480 effect of the message of hope as a mobilizing strategy. 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:58.760 The caveat, I'm like mister Caveat today anays is that 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:01.800 we used to have this saying in psychiatry the negative 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:05.080 affect gets the energy. And it's basically, if you have 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:08.520 twenty happy people in a room and one discontent person 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.639 in a room, and I know because I have dated 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:18.560 these people, I just have a very powerful, painful breakup 0:20:18.600 --> 0:20:21.639 with somebody like this. But it's like if somebody's unhappy, 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:24.920 it's our brain that works toward, oh, can we make 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:27.200 that person happy. So if there's twenty people in a 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:29.320 room at a party and one person comes in and 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:34.000 is miserable, that person gets the attention. You never remember 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:36.440 the twenty happy people in the room. And so there 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:41.639 is something very powerful about constant grievance, which, as we 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:45.359 know from Trump, it just mobilizes people to, as I've shown, 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:47.720 act against their own self interests, et cetera, et cetera. 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:51.760 And so I hope that joy can carry the day. 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:54.040 But I think the point that some people are making, 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:57.600 which is joy as a general strategy is important, but 0:20:57.680 --> 0:20:59.879 it's probably going to be important to tie it to 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:05.080 some very material gains for people or material realities. I think. 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:08.119 I think the concern people have is, you joy is 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:11.439 not sustainable in and of itself, but you know, you 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:15.200 never know. I mean Obama showed differently, So I'm TBD 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:17.920 on this. I will just say that when you start 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:20.959 telling people they're being ripped off or taken advantage of, 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:25.119 and you're there champion that, and you're creating the conditions 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:28.320 of austerity where they actually feel they're being ripped off 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:30.920 even though they're being ripped off by you. That's been 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:34.000 Trump's game, and the question is can we overcome it? 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:35.720 And I'm curious to see how that plays out. 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:38.680 Yeah, I'm on the different side of the fence as 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:41.920 somebody who has been living in existing in a place 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:45.800 of darkness for a very long time and recognize that 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:49.359 fear mongering, even if it is about let's say lifting 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:53.359 up the horrors of Project twenty twenty five is not 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:59.280 as palpable to people as them feeling possible about their lives. Yeah, 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:02.919 And what I think is happening is that one, I 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:05.920 think mainstream corporate media does not want people to be 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:08.600 joyful because that does not drive clicks for them. And 0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:11.159 so I think that there is a coordinated strategy that 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:14.479 is happening as a way to make it seem as 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:18.000 if this campaign is somehow vapid in comparison to I 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:20.280 don't know what the fuck Donald Trump is offering, and 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:22.439 they don't know because they don't ever ask him any 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:25.679 goddamn questions. But I also think that America has become 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:30.919 quite numb to the grievance politics. And by numb, I 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:34.359 mean like they're over it. It's been perpetuated over and 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:37.199 over and over again. It's the same bullshit, and I 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:40.080 feel like now the American people have got reached a 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:41.080 place of exhaustion. 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:44.439 Well, there two less things. I mean one about the media. 0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:46.119 Like for me, my critique of the media is a 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:48.520 little different. I watch MSNBC all the time, and I 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:52.800 don't get a picture of why non crazy Trump supporters 0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:55.119