1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: Also media, So in case you've been living under a 2 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: rock to ring in the new year, the United States 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: regime decided to invade Venezuela and kidnap President Maduro and 4 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: his wife Celia Flores to put them on trial in 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: the United States. 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 2: Thus far the time of recording, there are one hundred 7 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 2: reported killed by America's invasion, and Madua's vice president, Elsa 8 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 2: Rodriguez is now acting president of Venezuela. A Maduro has 9 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 2: been a reigned in New York. There's not a lot 10 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 2: yet known about how things played out precisely, so I 11 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 2: don't plan on Telvin too deeply into my speculations, but 12 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 2: many have been drawn attention to the similarities between this 13 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 2: recent historical moment and another notorious US invasion of a 14 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 2: nearby Latin American country, Panama, back in nineteen eighty nine. Hello, 15 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 2: and welcome to take it up in here. I'm Andrew Sage, 16 00:00:57,880 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 2: and I'm here with. 17 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 3: Speak James, a person who's been to Panama. I'm excited 18 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 3: about this one. I saw some good museums when I 19 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 3: was in Panama. 20 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 2: As I haven't been to any museums, I did visit 21 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 2: Panama at one point. Nice and years ago. Yeah, this 22 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 2: is before I was politically conscious. 23 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, yeah, I was even more politically conscious after 24 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 3: spending some time at Panama. 25 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. I can imagine after reading about what happened. Yeah, 26 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 2: I could see why you would be. 27 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, like I obviously were people. We will inform 28 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 3: people that they're not aware of the history of the 29 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 3: US and Panama of two episodes, but having just come 30 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 3: from watching people who across the Darian Gap being detained, imprisoned, 31 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 3: and deported from Panama with US funding, and then going 32 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 3: and seeing the museum with all this history, the idea 33 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 3: that they'd come back to full circle to like the 34 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 3: US effectively using Panama as an externalization of its own border, 35 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 3: like the US sent its Homeland Security secretary to the 36 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 3: inauguration of the current Panamanian president. Like it was really just, 37 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 3: i know, not great, Like it didn't make me happy. 38 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean there's a long history of that kind 39 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 2: of collaboration between those governments. Yeah, for that and for worse. 40 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 2: And so that's really what we're going to look into today, 41 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 2: you know, the history of US intervention in Panama, so 42 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 2: we can hopefully understand why comparisons are being drawn to 43 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 2: the US invasion of Venezuela here in turn twenty six. Yeah, so, 44 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 2: in case you did know to some basic facts about Panama, 45 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 2: It's a country on the Isthmus connecting Central America to 46 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 2: South America border in Costa Rica and Columbia. That's a 47 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 2: population of just over four million people, and it is 48 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 2: best known, of course for its canal, which is a 49 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 2: real feat of human engineering with an unfortunate tragedy behind it, 50 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 2: that links the Pacific Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean via 51 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 2: the Caribbean Sea. This canal is one of the principal 52 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: reasons why the US has so long been invested in 53 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: the fate of the still Spanish speaking country. So you see, 54 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 2: we have to go all the way back to eighteen 55 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 2: twenty one, where as a member of the newly minted 56 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,959 Speaker 2: Republic of Grand Columbia, the country gained independence from the 57 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 2: crumbling Spanish Empire. But after that Republic of Grand Columbia 58 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 2: dissolved in eighteen thirty one, Panama remained part of Columbia until, 59 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: with US back in it succeeded in nineteen oh three. Now, 60 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 2: Panama had actually tried to gain its independence from Columbia 61 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 2: before then, in eighteen thirty, eighteen thirty one, and eighteen forty, 62 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 2: but among many other reasons, despite being part of Columbia, 63 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 2: it didn't have any roads connecting it to the rest 64 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 2: of Columbia due to the Darian Gap. Can you tell 65 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: me a bit more about that part of the world, 66 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 2: because I know you have a lot of intimate knowledge 67 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 2: of it. 68 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I'd still no road to go through the Darien. Actually, 69 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 3: it's extremely mountainous and extremely jungly, and it has some 70 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 3: very large and powerful rivers, right. You know, I've spent 71 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 3: time in the Darien myself. When you talk to indigenous 72 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 3: people who lived in Daddy End now, but I remember 73 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 3: speaking to a guy, Senor Bonniell was his name, and 74 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 3: he said to me, like, how could we be unkind 75 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 3: to immigrants? Many of us are migrants too. We go 76 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:23,239 Speaker 3: to Panama for education, I mean center from the Panamanian border. 77 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 3: Patrol slash military are there in small numbers, but like, 78 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 3: essentially you are outside of the state in this area, 79 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 3: right and certainly in terms of provision of services, it's 80 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 3: very little. And that's because largely it is geographically very 81 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 3: difficult to access to get there. Just to sort of 82 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 3: paint people a picture. I took a plane. Then I 83 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 3: drove all the way to the paved road till that ended. 84 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 3: And then I hitched a ride on a truck all 85 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 3: the way on the unpaved road until that ended. And 86 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 3: then I hitched a ride in a dugout canoe that 87 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 3: was literally a log that someone hollowed out, and I 88 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,559 Speaker 3: took that for about five hours, and then I walked 89 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 3: for a while, and like that, that was how I 90 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 3: got to where I stayed. It's still extremely difficult for 91 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 3: people to cross. And I guess, like you know, I 92 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 3: like to read James Scott. I think about the way 93 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 3: he thought about the art of not being governed right, 94 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 3: and it's still one of those areas that it's hard 95 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 3: for the state to extract tribute from. 96 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean it's impressive to me that 97 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 2: despite these challenges, thousands of people managed to traverse through 98 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 2: the Daring Gap every year. 99 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 4: Yeah. 100 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 3: I mean, people wouldn't do it if they didn't think 101 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,799 Speaker 3: that what they were going to leave behind was worse. 102 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 3: But it is one of the most harrowing journeys, one 103 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 3: of the most difficult journeys a person can make. Like 104 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 3: you're shimming along cliff edges on. You know, a few 105 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 3: inches of rock and if you fall, you will die. 106 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 3: You're crossing a river, a river that was chest high 107 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 3: for me. I'm six foot three, and people are carrying toddlers, babies. 108 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 3: Someone gave birth in the jungle while I was there. 109 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 3: It's unimaginable, and like, people die every day. I saw 110 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 3: that myself. It's incredibly dangerous and difficult journey, but people 111 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 3: take it because they want a better chance their life. 112 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, And so you could imagine if it's 113 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 2: so difficult differs even now, how much more difficult it 114 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 2: would have been back then with even less infrastructure between 115 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 2: the regions of Panama and Columbia. 116 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 4: Yeah. 117 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 2: So at that point in time, Panama was mainly conducting trade, 118 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 2: which was a state at the time, was mean in 119 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: conducting trade with its Caribbean neighbors rather than Columbia's capital. 120 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 2: You know, they were very geographically isolated from the rest 121 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 2: of Columbia. But despite that fact, Panama only succeeded in 122 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 2: gain its independence with the help of the US as 123 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 2: American ambitions and local elite ambitions aligned for development of 124 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: the canal. Now, all this and what follows was recounted 125 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 2: in Emperors in the Jungle The Hidden History of the 126 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 2: US and Panama by John linna See Poland, which I 127 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: picked up my library and it was really a fantastic 128 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: book that served as my main resource for this research. 129 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 2: In n Sea Poland's words, Panama was a longstanding laboratory 130 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 2: of US imperial power, and some of the things I 131 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 2: found out about in this book I never heard of anywhere, 132 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 2: and it really shook me that these kinds of things 133 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 2: were happening, you know, at this crossroads of continents. 134 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 4: Yeah. 135 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 2: So I've been saying the US involvement in the country 136 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 2: even preceded its independence, with eleven American interventions taking place 137 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 2: in just the pre independent state of Panama between eighteen 138 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 2: fifty six and nineteen oh two, and irrationale for bringing 139 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 2: in their military usually involved, you know, claims of protecting 140 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 2: American interests, particularly during interactionary or revolutionary activity in the country. 141 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: And of course, because it's America, they always had a 142 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 2: heavily racialized approach to the region. You know, they saw 143 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 2: the Colombian army as ignorant mongrels, and they saw the 144 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: Panama Isma's civilians as savage and animal alike, especially as 145 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 2: Americans and American capital were involved in the construction of 146 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 2: the Panama Canal Railway, which was built between eighteen fifty 147 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 2: and eighteen fifty five to facility the Californian gold Rush. 148 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: You see America as iron Panama for a long time 149 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: because they saw it as an appeal ince side for 150 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: a trans Isthmus Canal, the next big project in international trade. 151 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 2: And aside from their direct interventions, they were signed in 152 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 2: treaties concerning Panama even before Panama was independent, while I 153 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,719 Speaker 2: was expanding its territory through the conquest of Mexico. The 154 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 2: US signed the Bidlack Treaty with Colombia in eighteen forty 155 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: six to guarantee Colombian control over Panama in exchange for 156 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 2: free access to any future canal. As we all know, 157 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 2: America always keeps its promises. So only four years later, 158 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 2: in eighteen fifty, the US and England as signed the 159 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 2: Clayton Bulward Treaty, which ensured their joint cooperation in any 160 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 2: future canal. You know, not, as I said, the US 161 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 2: and England signed that treaty, Yeah, because Columbia was not 162 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 2: involved at all. 163 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 4: Yeah. 164 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 3: Are you familiar with the Scottish attempt to colonize the Dadian. 165 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: No, that didn't come up. I mean I've missed that. 166 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 3: I think it's previous to the dates you're covering that 167 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 3: Scotland attempted to colonize the Dadian and I think called 168 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 3: the Darien scheme. 169 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 4: Basically, much of. 170 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 3: The Scottish bourgeoisie pulled their capital to do this, right 171 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:44,959 Speaker 3: in the idea that there would. 172 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 4: Be a Scottish colony. 173 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 3: Obviously, at that time, colonialism was seen as the route 174 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 3: to national security and independence prestige. Yeah, and then you know, 175 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 3: they wanted to keep up with the English who were 176 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 3: busy colonizing and pillaging much of the world, so they 177 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 3: attempt set up a colony in one of the least 178 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 3: hospitable places on the planet. Unsuccessfully. You know, people got malaria. 179 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 3: When I was there, I was told that every type 180 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 3: of malaria is present in the gap just because you 181 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 3: have such a global population of people, right that the 182 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 3: Mosquitos are buying someone from East Africa, then they're buying you, 183 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 3: Then they're buying someone from West Africa, South America, Nepal. 184 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 3: You know that the Mosquitos is getting a global buffet. 185 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 3: So back then, obviously still malaria. 186 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 2: It's like a mosquito convention. 187 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like a mosquito vector disease. Got 188 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 3: old mine the Scottish bortge was he significantly lost to 189 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 3: such an extent that like we can point to this 190 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 3: scheme of one of the reasons that Scotland continues to 191 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 3: be colonized by England right down. 192 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, it's wild. 193 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 3: I think you will probably learn about it now if 194 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 3: you're going to school, if you're going to school in Scotland, 195 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 3: or you've been to school in Scotland, you learned about it. 196 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 4: I'd love to hear from you. 197 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 3: But yeah, the Darien scheme was this kind of idea 198 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 3: of a Scottish empire that ended up completely backfiring. 199 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. I just looked it up as the late sixteen nineties. Yeah, 200 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 2: to set up a colony called New Caledonia. Yeah, I mean, 201 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 2: and that was their first attempt I set it up 202 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 2: a colony, I mean, way to pick them. 203 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, right, like throw a dark at the map 204 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 3: and you couldn't land to the place, so it's less 205 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 3: like Scotland. 206 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 4: It does rain a lot other than that. 207 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as like trying to set up your 208 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 2: first colony in like Antarctica or something. 209 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like I don't know how whether they 210 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 3: just felt like it looks like no one else is 211 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 3: hanging around there, and obviously at that point in time, 212 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 3: they weren't concerned with indigenous people, right, like, yeah, they 213 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 3: felt that there was no other state projecting its force 214 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 3: there or like what, I don't understand how they or 215 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 3: because they I think I read somewhere that there have 216 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 3: been several attempts to build a canal through the Daddy 217 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 3: in I think it's it's actually slightly narrower there. So 218 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 3: whether they were early on in that and just sor right, well, 219 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 3: we'll establish ourselves here and then as we or the 220 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 3: canal a bit later. 221 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and well, of course it didn't quite work out. 222 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, it didn't go that way for them, sadly, So the. 223 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 2: US and England they signed this treaty to ensure joint 224 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 2: cooperation in the future canal. And then during the American 225 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 2: Civil War, President Iram Lincoln advanced the proposal to establish 226 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 2: a colony of emancipated and deported black Americans in southwestern 227 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 2: Panama because you know, he didn't believe black and white 228 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,839 Speaker 2: people could live together, right, Yeah, this proposal was scrapped 229 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 2: due to Colombian, Central American and Black American opposition. But 230 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 2: it's interesting to think about there being almost a Liberia 231 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 2: in the Western hemisphere, you know, because the Liberian project 232 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 2: was an attempt at doing similarly. 233 00:12:57,800 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 4: Yeah, that is wild to think about. 234 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 2: And so after quite a few of their pre Panamanian 235 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 2: independence military interventions, it's quite a mouthful, thank you, past Andrew. 236 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 2: The US was hitching to build the canal that they 237 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 2: always wanted. They were feeding for a gateway to the Pacific, 238 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 2: and they did not like that when France tried to 239 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 2: build their own canal through Panama from eighteen seventy nine 240 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 2: to eighteen eighty nine. But they didn't have, you know, 241 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: enough of us saying it, because why the hell is 242 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 2: France in America's backyard as far as they're considered. Yeah, right, 243 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: The Monero Doctrine was established in eighteen twenty three, so 244 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 2: it had to be activated then and there. And of 245 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 2: course they didn't just want a canal for mercantile or 246 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 2: geopolitical reasons. Remember, they had just conquered several states in 247 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 2: Mexico and reached the Pacific Sea to shine and sea, 248 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 2: as they like to say, Unluckily for them, there were 249 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 2: still quite a lot of Native Americans and Mexicans still 250 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 2: living in western plains and West coast. Plus you had 251 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 2: a lot of Asian immigration to the West coast as well, 252 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: and the leaders of Americas didn't exactly appreciate that. You know, 253 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 2: they wanted northern European stock to populate the western coast, 254 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 2: unpolluted by having to share a railroad with black and 255 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: brown Panamanians. Yeah, so they have to get a canal 256 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 2: so the whites don't have to step foot off their 257 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 2: boats and mingle with the locals, you know, because then 258 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 2: they could stay on their boats, they could go through 259 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 2: they never have to breathe the same air as the 260 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 2: local inhabitants of Panama. And so after wrapping up their 261 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 2: war with Spain, having newly minted colonies in the Philippines, Guam, 262 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 2: and Hawaii, they really really wanted a maritime shortcut to 263 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 2: continue their great empire building ambihops because you see, having 264 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 2: to spend sixty seven days to reach from San Francisco 265 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 2: to Cuba, they didn't like that, you know, going all 266 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 2: the way around the Patter and Juan and all that, 267 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 2: that's not fun. So the US created an opportunity for itself. 268 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 2: After Columbia Civil War between the Liberals and the Conservatives 269 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 2: that you know, raged between eighteen ninety nine to nineteen two. 270 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: Here's what happened. In Panama City. Most of the white 271 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 2: elites tried to stay out to the conflict, but in 272 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 2: the rural interior there was a different story, as the 273 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 2: Liberals found support among the mestizo peasants. In Panama, the 274 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 2: civil war was less focused on parties whether you're a 275 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 2: Liberal or conservative. It started off like that, but became 276 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 2: a mass uprising against the distant conservative government in Bogota. 277 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 2: So after several major battles, liberal forces had taken control 278 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 2: of almost all of Panama's interior, and that's when the 279 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 2: US socided to step in. They used the bid Lack 280 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 2: Treaty of eighteen forty six as justification to bring in 281 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 2: their military to protect transit across Panama, in particular the 282 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: Real Way. Thus, the Liberals were unable to finish their 283 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 2: victory and had to sign a peace agreement, and in 284 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 2: the following months, liberal forces regrouped and once again took 285 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 2: control of nearly all of Panama except Cologne and Panama City, 286 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 2: and once again the US got involved and blocked liberal 287 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 2: entry into those cities. The US made it impossible for 288 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 2: the liberals to win, so they surrendered and signed one 289 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 2: last Peach treat in November nineteen o two. And in 290 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 2: the civil war and all that for what? Because more 291 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 2: than sixty eight percent of Panama's cattle was wiped out, 292 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 2: agriculture had collapsed. The armies on both sides commitsider atrocities. 293 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 2: You know, thousands of civilians fled into the mountains. Entire 294 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 2: towns were emptied as people were escaping conscription and violence. 295 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 2: Have you ever read the book One hundred Years of Solitude. 296 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 4: When I was like in just out of high school. 297 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 2: I did? Yeah, Okay, I read it last year, so 298 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 2: when I was doing the research, was like top of 299 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 2: my mind. Yeah, because you know, part of that book 300 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 2: covers that Columbia and Civil War. 301 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 4: I should read it again. 302 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 2: It was pretty good. I had some very weird stuff. 303 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: It was pretty good. Yeah. 304 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's good to I'm trying to read more fiction 305 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 3: right now. It helps me. 306 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. Even though it was fiction, I think it pains 307 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 2: a really grim picture of that Civil war. 308 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 4: Yep. 309 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 2: And so I could have in reading this, I could 310 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 2: have pictured what was taking place because the book was 311 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 2: over it. Yeah, you know, rural Panama was absolutely devastated, 312 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 2: and yet the transit zone was of course untouched, the 313 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 2: railroad and the port. The commerce captain going and with 314 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 2: the liberal peasantry defeated. But the conservatives in the US, 315 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 2: the conservative elites in Panama City were best positioned and 316 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 2: negotiate for their own ambitions. With the war over, President 317 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 2: Roosevelt was looking to finally negotiate for Panama Canal rights. 318 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 2: And if you couldn't get a deal with the Friends 319 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 2: Canal Company that was ready to sell or the government 320 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 2: of Colombia, he had permission from Congress to pursue a 321 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 2: canal in Nicaragua instead. Interesting, the French company was definitely 322 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 2: ready to offload their investment because you know, there were 323 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 2: multiple attempts to set up a canal. The French had 324 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 2: their attempt and they were ready to get it off 325 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 2: of their hands, right, But the Colombian government rejected America's 326 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 2: hey Hran treaty, which offered what they considered an inadequate 327 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 2: ten million dollars in exchange for sweeping canal. Right, so 328 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 2: America made them an offer they couldn't refuse. What happened 329 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 2: next was that Roosevelt and a French share holder named 330 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 2: Philippe Punao Veria struck up a little side deal of 331 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 2: their own, and the US Navy got orders to prevent 332 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 2: Colombia from crushing any uprising on the Isthmus. Would their 333 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 2: circumstances being what they were on the ground in Panama 334 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 2: without Columbia intervention due to the US blockade, it didn't 335 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 2: take long for Panamanian forces to declare independence. Finally, in 336 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 2: nineteen oh three, the Big Black Treaty the US had 337 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 2: signed with Columbia was supposed to protect Columbia's control over 338 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 2: Panama and ensure free transit throughout the Isthmus, and the 339 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 2: US did basically the complete opposite. You know. That's what 340 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 2: makes them such an excellent partner on the global stage. 341 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 2: You can always count on them to uphold, you know, 342 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 2: the highest standards of moral and and diplomatic decency. So 343 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 2: before you know it, America was recognizing a newly independent 344 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 2: Panama and drafting up a treaty with Bunal Veria, who 345 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 2: the new Panama government had given permission to negotiate a deal. 346 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 2: But I'm thinking that they may not have known that 347 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 2: Bunal Varia had already practically signed them away. They didn't 348 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:50,919 Speaker 2: like the fact that they would behold on to a 349 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 2: treaty that no Panamanian had signed. But if the US 350 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 2: made sure that the Panamanian government understood that if they 351 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 2: didn't like the treaty, the Navy could always just let 352 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 2: the Columbian Army come in and their independence in the bud. 353 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 2: You know, it's like, oh, you don't like, who's going 354 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 2: at us? Well, you know, a real real shame if 355 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 2: the Columbia Navy came back in to the picture. So 356 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 2: the New Canal Treaty, he gave the US far more 357 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 2: than they had even expected to get from the deal. 358 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 2: They claimed permanent control over a ten mile wide canal zone, 359 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 2: inherited the French canal works and the railroad, and secured 360 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 2: the right to seize land anywhere in Panama if they 361 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 2: deemed it necessary for the canal's defense, operation or sanitation, 362 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 2: and trust and believe they would use that privilege to 363 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 2: seize land at nineteen different times between nineteen o eight 364 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 2: and nineteen thirty one, cumulatively hundreds of square miles thousands 365 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 2: of acres, often without notice or compensation, and always justified 366 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 2: as necessary for canal defense. The Canal's zone was removed 367 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 2: from Panamanian courts all together, and the US was authorized 368 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 2: police Panama City and Cologne and build military garrisons. Panama's 369 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 2: new constitution made it an effective US protectorate. Article one 370 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 2: hundred and thirty six explicitly allowed the United States to 371 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 2: intervene militarily anywhere in Panama to restore public peace and 372 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 2: constitutional order. Civilization, as Roosevelt argued, was the urgent mandate 373 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 2: for all these actions toward building the Canal Jesus Construction 374 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 2: officially began in nineteen oh four in a Panama exhausted 375 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 2: by civil war, quanted by the French failure, and politically 376 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 2: dependent on Washington. So he said, you had been to 377 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 2: the canal zone and the museums and stuff. Can you 378 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 2: tell me a bit about what you know about the 379 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 2: canal's construction. 380 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 4: They were very good at this part. I remember this 381 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 4: part very well. 382 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 3: They had accounts from the workers, the people who were 383 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 3: in some cases like essentially forced labor, right, They had 384 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 3: accounts of what their lives were like. They had like 385 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 3: sort of the ephemera of their lives, which is always 386 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 3: in like you know, like in museums. It helps to 387 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 3: create a picture, right, they're like the sort of the 388 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 3: things that they were fed, the shitty shoes that they got, 389 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,960 Speaker 3: given pictures of the sleeping situations and accounts from doctors. Right, 390 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 3: because a lot of people became unwell because they were 391 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 3: exposed to all these conditions and diseases that they hadn't 392 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 3: been exposed to before. 393 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 4: So they did a good job. 394 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 3: I felt of like painting how horrendous life was for 395 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 3: people who were. 396 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 4: Digging out the panamaketal. 397 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. 398 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 3: I think they had a two tier system, right, I 399 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 3: think it was the gold ticket. Yes, Yeah, they were 400 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,680 Speaker 3: explaining how life was so much more difficult the lower 401 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 3: down that system, you found yourself, Yeah. 402 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 2: Yeah. The whole construction of this feat of engineer and 403 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 2: was you know, rife would suffering. Yeah, and that suffering 404 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 2: often key like in a very racialized we yes, as 405 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 2: you mention, and there was a gold role and a 406 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 2: silver role, that's it. 407 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 4: Yeah. 408 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: So even prior to canal construction, Panamas already a very 409 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 2: racially divided society. You had the white elites in the capital, 410 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 2: you had the mestizo peasants, you had poor black and 411 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 2: mulatto communities. And you also the indigenous peoples who weren't 412 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,640 Speaker 2: even counted in official census counts. 413 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 4: Oh wow. 414 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 2: And among the canal workforce in particular, it was quite 415 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 2: a lot of black laborers who were either descendants of 416 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 2: people emancipated from slavery in eighteen fifty two or migrants 417 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 2: from the British Caribbean who drawn to Panama during the 418 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 2: railroad construction project and the French canal construction project. And 419 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,479 Speaker 2: so the US took this social landscape and made it 420 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 2: worse by introducing racial hierarchy with the gold role in 421 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 2: silver rule that determined your pay, your housing, your medical care, 422 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,479 Speaker 2: and even how you were buried. You know, the American workers, 423 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 2: the white American workers in the canal's construction, occupied the 424 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 2: gold role and the Caribbean laborers were pushed onto the 425 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 2: silver row. They had to perform the most dangerous work 426 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 2: under the worst conditions. And so during the US construction 427 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 2: phase alone, roughly fifty six hundred workers died from disease 428 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 2: and accidents, and the overwhelming majority were the Caribbean laborers. Sadly, 429 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 2: their deaths were treated as expendable losses. Is an engineering 430 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 2: project framed as a triumph of civilization. The Canal construction 431 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: finally concluded in nineteen fourteen, and so after its independence. 432 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 2: During the Canal construction and afterwards, Panama faced eight further 433 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 2: US military interventions, including the famous ninety eighty nine invasion, 434 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 2: which we'll get to in the next episode. But take 435 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 2: a guess as to what their rationale was for these interventions. 436 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 3: Are they protecting business interest, US capital. 437 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 2: Ding ning ning ning ning, protecting US citizens and property, 438 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:09,600 Speaker 2: maintaining control and stability, preserving US strategic and political interests, 439 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 2: all that usual stuff. Particularly whenever Panamanians were struggling for 440 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 2: their rights against the elites, the US would get involved. 441 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 2: The US supervised elections, they oversaw the police force, they 442 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 2: vetoed public spending whenever it wanted, and the US bases 443 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 2: lined the canal with thousands of troops explicitly for the 444 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 2: purpose of maintaining quiet and protecting property in Panama. Panama's 445 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 2: whole political history in the twentieth century was basically shaped 446 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 2: and dictated by US interests. In nineteen oh four, when 447 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 2: general Isteban whereas a threatened revolt, the US officials pressured 448 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 2: Panama's president to fire him and dissolve the Army entirety. 449 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 2: In nineteen ten, when Vice President Carlos Mendoza, a liberal 450 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 2: mulatto married to a black woman, seemed likely to in 451 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: the presidency. The US Chief of Mission, Richard marsh threatened 452 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 2: occupation if he were elected, so Mendoza withdrew his candidacy. 453 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 2: During World War One, the garrison commander used occupations imposed 454 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 2: moral reforms by shutting down saloons and prostitution and publicly 455 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 2: denouncing Panamanian cities as dens of vice and in the countryside, 456 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 2: ostensibly to protect American landowners, US troops drunkenly abused, stole, 457 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 2: and burned homes for two whole years until they finally withdrew, 458 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,879 Speaker 2: and in nineteen twenty five the US came into Panama 459 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 2: City to crush a rent strike. Panama also became a 460 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,719 Speaker 2: regional launch part for the US Empire. The Marines were 461 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 2: stationed there were repeatedly deployed in Nicaragua, Mexico, and beyond. 462 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 2: For the US Empire, the costs could always be externalized 463 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 2: to Panama. Panama was an imperial laboratory for the US 464 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 2: to test ideas and weapons they felt were skied test 465 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 2: at home. Dueral War two, they tested various chemical weapons 466 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 2: in Panama on nature and people with minimal disclosure and 467 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 2: almost no regard for long term environmental and human consequences. Esis. 468 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 2: They also left behind unexploded Venetians. 469 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 4: That is horrible. 470 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, it gets worse, Okay, great. In the nineteen fifties 471 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 2: and sixties, US officials seriously proposed using nuclear exclusions, yeah, 472 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 2: to carve a new sea level canal through Panama. 473 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 3: So you've heard about this, yeah, and new king the 474 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 3: Darien was there. One of the little strategies that they've 475 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,720 Speaker 3: thought about. I think they thought about again when the 476 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 3: bi centennial of the United States that have been nineteen 477 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 3: seventy six. One of the things they wanted to do 478 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,679 Speaker 3: is complete the Pan American Highway. Have it run all 479 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 3: the way up from the northern tip of Alaska. I 480 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 3: guess so I think goes from Canada Actueen all the 481 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 3: way down to Argentina. Again, can we just nuke the 482 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 3: dary in and we'll just join them up and it'll 483 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 3: be fine. 484 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,719 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, they were really gung ho about nukes. Yeah 485 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 2: at that point in time in history. You know. 486 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 4: Yeah, the Panama Canal. 487 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 2: In case you don't know those are you listeners? At home. 488 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 2: The Panma Canal is not a sea level canal. It 489 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 2: actually it climbs a mountain. LOOKI you know, so it 490 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 2: has several steps where it's like the water is released 491 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 2: and there's like a floated mechanism, and it's it's kind 492 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 2: of inconvenient just there's traffic backed up of boats waiting 493 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 2: for their chance to get into the canal. And so 494 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 2: the idea of sea level canal is, you know, so 495 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 2: much more convenient if you didn't have to wait for 496 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 2: all those mechanisms to you know, drain and fill in 497 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 2: all those different things. Yeah, but nuke in the canal 498 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 2: to create a new sea level canal, it's really not 499 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 2: the best idea. 500 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 4: No, Yeah, it's wild to think about. 501 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 3: Then. I guess they got news relatively recently they were like, okay, 502 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 3: what can we do with these Like yeah, yeah, what 503 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 3: else can we Now you'll see when you're in Panama City, 504 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 3: you see boats like sort of hanging out around the canal. Yeah, 505 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 3: it's waiting to enter those those locks. 506 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 2: And I mean, obviously the consequences of a nuclearicates a 507 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 2: canal be disastrous. Entire regions that have been irradiated, populations 508 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 2: would have been displaced, ecosystems, de altered, and yet these seriously, 509 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 2: with a straight face, considered this plant. Yeah, because you 510 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 2: know who cares about the people outside the Imperial center? 511 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 4: Sure? 512 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, Like what the Embra people and the Guna people 513 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 3: who live down there, Like what do they matter to them? 514 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 4: Right? 515 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 3: And this is after they've dropped a nuke. It's not 516 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 3: like they're like postulating here, like. 517 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not that they don't know what nukes do. 518 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, they've they've seen this happen in Japan. Right, we're 519 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 3: like a decade since they know that it's still killing people. 520 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. There are places and canals and structures that have 521 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 2: been irrigated, caves style and stuff using dynamite you know 522 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 2: tn T you know, basic and explosive devices. And that's 523 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 2: one thing, right, I don't know what it's like more 524 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 2: of that. It's like, let'siscoo as big as we kind 525 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 2: of go. 526 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 4: Right, it's not understanding the fundamental difference. 527 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 3: Right, Like that nuclear blast is of an entirely different 528 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 3: nature too. 529 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 4: Yeah. 530 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 2: I mean it could have very easily end up affect 531 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 2: in the US as well. Right, Yeah, you know, the 532 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 2: occurrents could have carried if they fall out into the 533 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 2: southern US into the West coast. You know, it's into 534 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 2: other countries in the region as well. 535 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 4: Yeah. 536 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 3: I visited one of the places that the United States 537 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 3: nuked after World War Two, right in the Republic of 538 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 3: the Marshall Islands, and they completely failed to account for 539 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 3: even prevailing winds, right like the fallout directly engulfed small 540 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 3: Japanese fishing vessel. That was just happened to be because 541 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 3: I didn't tell anyone, right, and then they just dropped 542 00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 3: a nuclear boy told some people to see. 543 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 4: They evacuated people living on. 544 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 3: The island, but they dropped in nuclear barn and then 545 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 3: we're just like, oh wow, it's blown off over there. 546 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 3: Did the result in people being sevillely irradiated? 547 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 2: You know, it's like were of scientists, you know, then 548 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 2: their next and furiously scribbled on some notes. Fascinating. 549 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 3: People have attempted to go back to their island because 550 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 3: at one point they were told that they could, and 551 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 3: they absolutely like it wasn't safe for them. But like 552 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 3: the the coconuts and the crabs and the fish in 553 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 3: the reefs are still irradiated, they're still not safe for them. 554 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 3: People still have one of the highest rates of still 555 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 3: birth in the world. Yeah, the stories they tell about 556 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 3: miscarrying pregnancies are heartbreaking. Yeah, because they didn't know what 557 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 3: was going on, right. 558 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 2: The human and environmental and that it's awful. 559 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's terrible. 560 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 2: And so it'sok resistance from Panaminians, from scientists, and from 561 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 2: a growing global environmental movement to put an end to 562 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 2: this rebosal. Now, as is the nature of interventions, after 563 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 2: a certain point, they start to weigh in because, you know, 564 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 2: the intervening power has created this setup that they find preferential. 565 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 2: You know, So while they're setting up, they may have 566 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 2: to intervene on repeated occasions, but once they get to 567 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 2: a certain point where their control over that area is crystallized, 568 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 2: they don't have to intervene as explicitly as often. So 569 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 2: direct US interventions waned as time went on, but the 570 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 2: tensions continue to build in Panama for independence from the US, 571 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 2: and these tensions flared in January nineteen sixty four, which 572 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 2: would get the ball rolling for a new treaty between 573 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 2: the countries that will replace the previous Hey Banal for 574 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 2: the year treaty. So, since that nineteen oh three treaty, 575 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 2: Panamanians want to get revisited and revised. Remember, they didn't 576 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 2: want to agree to it in the first place. They 577 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 2: were kind of coerced into its terms. Both the US's 578 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 2: proposal to create a new sea level canal without nukes, 579 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 2: which would require cooperate with the Paraminians, there would be 580 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 2: for city He's Paramian demands into consideration, and so, as 581 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 2: a concession to Paramanian nationalism, US President John F. Kennedy 582 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 2: and Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson developed a policy that 583 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 2: would fly the Panamian flag alongside the American flag ou 584 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 2: La la in certain parts of the canal zone. And 585 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 2: then JFK was assassinated in November nineteen sixty three, and 586 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,479 Speaker 2: then in January of the following year, Balboa High School, 587 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 2: which was an American school in the canal zone, refused 588 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 2: to fly either flag. So on January ninth, nineteen sixty four, 589 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 2: American students decided to raise the American flag for freedom 590 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 2: or whatever, and Paramanian students from Panama's National Institute marched 591 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 2: to the school to raise their own flag, and then 592 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 2: there's a scuffle, and then the Panamanian flag is torn, 593 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 2: and then that scuffle becomes a riot where twenty four 594 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 2: Panamian civilians and four West soldiers were killed in the fighting. Yeah, 595 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 2: and hundreds of Pamelian civilians were injured by the American crackdown. 596 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:12,479 Speaker 3: That Panamanian flag is in the museum, the panamaket Out Museum, the. 597 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 2: One that got torn. 598 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 4: Yeah. 599 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 2: Oh that's impressive. I have to go and see that then. 600 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 3: Yeah. 601 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really it's a good museum. 602 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 2: So that's a real big piece of history because that 603 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 2: whole riot led to everything else. 604 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 4: Yeah. 605 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 3: No, that is like it's a pivotal like artifact of 606 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 3: their national history. 607 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. It's like for want of a nil, the horse 608 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 2: was lost. It's like for want of a ripped flag. Yeah, 609 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 2: Panamanian independence was lost. 610 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 4: Yeah. 611 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, obviously that's not all by allowance to that, but 612 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 2: it's such a unique artifact of history. 613 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's cool to be like this pivotal moment, like 614 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 4: this thing was present. 615 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 616 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 3: Sometimes when I'm in Spain, I'll kick around antiques markets 617 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 3: and find like, like a newspaper. Just seeing that this 618 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 3: newspaper was on the street the same day, right that 619 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,319 Speaker 3: the Spanish military was defeated in Barcelona. You can see 620 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 3: sometimes people like sheltering behind newspaper stands right. It's a 621 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 3: exchange fire with the soldiers and things like, oh, this 622 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 3: thing was present at this pivotal moment. 623 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was there for that piece of history 624 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 2: that more months in time. 625 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 4: Yeah. I like to acquire those things when I when 626 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 4: I can. 627 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 2: Something I would like to acquire though, is a bit 628 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 2: of rubble or something from one of the other actions 629 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,800 Speaker 2: that day, The protesters also burned several American buildings, including 630 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 2: entire plans, airlines, and the US Information Agency. I'm wondering 631 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 2: if that piece of history is also in the museum. 632 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think those buildings are still around, like some 633 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 3: or some of those canals, some of the Canal Company 634 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 3: buildings are still around because you you can see them 635 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 3: when you're driving around. 636 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 2: And so, in response to that whole riot situation, the 637 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:53,759 Speaker 2: Panamanian President Robert Docciari cut diplomatic relations with the US 638 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 2: and demanded a renegotiation of the treaty. A few months later, 639 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 2: in April nineteen sixty four, diplomatic ties were re established 640 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 2: in an effort to resolve the conflict between the countries. 641 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 2: These negotiations would be ongoing for years afterwards. In fact, 642 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 2: one of the reasons the idea of the nuclear excavation 643 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 2: was considered in the first place was that it didn't 644 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 2: require as much Paramanian labor cooperation as a typical canal 645 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 2: project would. And because tensions were so tense that Panama, 646 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:28,320 Speaker 2: they were like, let's circumvent them and just just opening 647 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,800 Speaker 2: up ourselves. But when the nuclear canal project collapsed, and 648 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 2: with mountain pressure from the Paramanians, the stage was set 649 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 2: for the US to pull back its more direct and 650 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 2: open medland in the country, at least for the while. 651 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 2: JFK's vice president Lyndon Johnson won the presidency in November 652 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four, and as the anna ustry of the 653 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,280 Speaker 2: riots approached, he resolved to figure out that new treaty, 654 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 2: explore c Lepple canal proparations, and settle things with the 655 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,880 Speaker 2: contingency of Americans in office who sought to preserve America's 656 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 2: perpetual ownership of the canal zone, including the famous white 657 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 2: supremacist art conservative Strom Trump. If you know anything about 658 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 2: Trump Thummer, and you know that like fork found in kitchen, 659 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 2: you know the fact that this guy was against kind 660 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,719 Speaker 2: of me, against having control over the canal. It's not 661 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 2: surprised and This is the guy who set a country 662 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,759 Speaker 2: record for philibustering against the Civil Rights Act. 663 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 4: Yeah. 664 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was beaten recently by Cory Booker, 665 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 3: who set a world record for filibustering about not very much. 666 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I could have bought that. 667 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, he talked about don Trump for a while and 668 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,320 Speaker 3: then he finished up and went and voted for a 669 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 3: bunch of Trump appointees. 670 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 2: It's like the Democratic Party response is like, you stop that, 671 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 2: you meani, and then they just do whatever. Yeah, whatever 672 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 2: Trump wants anyway. 673 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, you're not allowed to do you know, you're not allowed. 674 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,800 Speaker 2: To do that. You're breaking that's against the rules. 675 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, they summoned the Reddit moderators, is the Democratic response. 676 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 3: But yeah, if there was a cause during the time 677 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:58,800 Speaker 3: he was in office and it would have made the 678 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 3: world better, you can count on Strom being against it. 679 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, pretty much. 680 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 4: Yeah. 681 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 2: And so the Americans they managed to scripe together a 682 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 2: treaty in nineteen sixty seven, but the Panamanians didn't ratify it, 683 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 2: and in the following year nineteen sixty eight, Panama is 684 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:23,359 Speaker 2: overtaken by a military who don't dun't dun. So if 685 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 2: you want to know what will happen with the treaty, 686 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 2: with Panama's political future, and how all of this does 687 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,360 Speaker 2: or does not relate to current commissions in Venezuela. Because 688 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 2: I know I have that thread still dangling. Yeah, stay 689 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,879 Speaker 2: tuned for the next episode this has when it can 690 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 2: Happen Here, I'm Andre Sage, I'm here with James Stout 691 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 2: and as always, all power to all the people peace. 692 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 2: It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 693 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 694 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 695 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 696 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 1: You can now find sources for it Could Happen Here, 697 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. 698 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 4: Thanks for listening.