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Speaker 1: Novel.

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Speaker 2: Hey listener, I just wanted to give you a heads

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Speaker 2: up on what to expect from this series. As always,

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Speaker 2: The Girlfriends is about solidarity, sisterhood, and uplifting women's voices,

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Speaker 2: but this is also a story about violence of the

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Speaker 2: most terrible kind against women. There's going to be mentions

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Speaker 2: of murder, and we'll also reference drug and alcohol use.

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Speaker 2: Above all, we're going to talk a lot about missing

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Speaker 2: and unidentified people. But on the way, as we tread

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Speaker 2: along this dark, uncertain path, we're going to try to

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Speaker 2: find moments of light, because that's what life is. It's

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Speaker 2: the good and the bad, the joy and the misery

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Speaker 2: all mixed up into one. If you feel impacted by

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Speaker 2: any of the themes while listening, I encourage you to

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Speaker 2: check out our charity partner, DNA Dough Project. They work

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Speaker 2: with law enforcement to identify Jane and John Doe's using

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Speaker 2: genetic genealogy in the hopes of reuniting the bodies of

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Speaker 2: unidentified people with their families. You can find them at

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Speaker 2: dnadough project dot org. Oh and just one more thing,

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Speaker 2: I still swear like a sailor, So if you're up

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Speaker 2: for listening, you're gonna hear a fair amount of let's say,

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Speaker 2: colorful language, but come on, you know me by now.

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Speaker 3: With familial Yeah, this is it.

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Speaker 4: I think it might get that one over there.

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Speaker 1: Oh you go the wine?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? What's that old saying? Men come and go, but

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Speaker 2: girlfriends are for life. Well, hi, girlfriend, we are back.

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Speaker 2: It's a dark, cold evening on the sixth night of

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Speaker 2: Hanukah in twenty twenty three. Myself, my good Nindy, and

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Speaker 2: my producer Anna are in New York visiting the Lane Cats.

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Speaker 2: This is the first time we've all been in the

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Speaker 2: same room together, and we've got a lot of catching

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Speaker 2: up to do, so we'd best start pouring the wine.

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Speaker 5: Did you want me to.

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Speaker 1: Open up something you bought?

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Speaker 4: The red on the table or the pink in the

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Speaker 4: refrigerator or both.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 2: The last time I saw any of these ladies, we

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Speaker 2: were recording Season one of The Girlfriends. We told the

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Speaker 2: story of how we came together and helped law enforcement

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Speaker 2: solve a fifteen year old cold case, and as a result,

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Speaker 2: we put my fucking asshole ex boyfriend Bob behind bars

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Speaker 2: for the murder of his wife, Gail Cats. Now you

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Speaker 2: can listen to that first, if you haven't already.

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Speaker 1: After we wrapped this series.

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Speaker 2: I felt like I finally put that strange part of

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Speaker 2: my life in the past. But that was wishful thinking,

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Speaker 2: because it turns out that lurking within one cold case

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Speaker 2: was another, the case of our lost sister. In nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty nine, a few years after Gail Cats disappeared, a

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Speaker 2: woman's torso washed up on Staten Island. She was then

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Speaker 2: misidentified as Gail Cats, and after spending nearly a decade

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Speaker 2: buried in the Cat's family plot, she was exhumed for

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Speaker 2: DNA testing in the lead up to Bob's trial. When

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Speaker 2: the results came back and confirmed that she was not Gail,

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Speaker 2: she just sort of disappeared. It's been thirty five years

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Speaker 2: since she washed up on that shore, and we still

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Speaker 2: don't know her name, which just doesn't sit.

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Speaker 1: Right with us.

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Speaker 6: There is this Jewish.

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Speaker 2: Belief that after death, your name is still connected to

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Speaker 2: your soul, and so saying somebody's name after they died

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Speaker 2: is part of how we remember them. We need to

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Speaker 2: give our girl her name back so that we can

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Speaker 2: honor her properly.

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Speaker 1: We owe that to her, We owe it to.

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Speaker 2: Every murdered and missing woman whose stories go untold because

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Speaker 2: those stories matter, and because no girlfriend gets left behind,

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Speaker 2: We've decided to come together again to try and find

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Speaker 2: out who she is once and for all. We've got

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Speaker 2: Gail's sister, Elaine Katz, who is a powerhouse of a lawyer.

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Speaker 2: Most importantly for this new investigation, Elaine spent nine years

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Speaker 2: believing that our Jane Doe was her sister and has

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Speaker 2: been wondering who she really is ever since.

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Speaker 4: When they told me that they had made the wrongful identification,

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Speaker 4: that was a very blow point.

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Speaker 2: Then there's Mindy Shapiro, my dear friend, who once not

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Speaker 2: so dearly set me up with that aforementioned murderer.

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Speaker 1: I mean me, at least I say he's perfect on paper.

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Speaker 1: See what you think I thought? I said the.

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Speaker 4: Exact same thing about him, perfect on paper, exact same words.

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Speaker 2: Mindy's also a fabulous doctor and the girlfriend's answered to

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Speaker 2: Sherlock Holmes with the nose.

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Speaker 1: For digging into the unknown.

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Speaker 2: And finally, our most recent recruit, producer Anna aka Anna

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Speaker 2: the Vegan aka the British One. Anna wrote and produced

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Speaker 2: the first series of the podcast and has been officially

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Speaker 2: adopted as a member of our club and adopted in general.

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Speaker 1: I have no children.

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Speaker 5: You could be my daughter. You can be my daughter.

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Speaker 2: So where do we start? This is a thirty five

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Speaker 2: year old cold case, a case that couldn't be solved

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Speaker 2: by the police, the medical examiners, or anyone else. As

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you've picked up, We're not professional detectives. We're

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Speaker 2: just three nosy Jewish ladies and one tofu eating producer.

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Speaker 1: But we really really care.

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Speaker 2: I'm determined that by the end of the series, not

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Speaker 2: only will we know this missing girlfriend's name, but we

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Speaker 2: will know her story.

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Speaker 1: So back to that question, where do we start? Well,

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Speaker 1: how bad?

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Speaker 2: At the beginning, I'm Carol Fisher and from the teams

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Speaker 2: at Novel and iHeart Podcasts, this is the girlfriends Our

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Speaker 2: Lost Sister, Episode one a double mitzvah.

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Speaker 4: Okay, where are we?

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Speaker 5: Statton Island Fairy?

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Speaker 1: I think you go?

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Speaker 5: This is free, that's.

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Speaker 1: Free, truth be told.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how you're meant to open up a

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Speaker 2: cold case, but in all my years working in hospice care,

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Speaker 2: one thing I've learned is that there's a reason we

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Speaker 2: often lean on ceremony and ritual when remembering the dead.

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Speaker 2: It brings order to what we can understand, which is

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Speaker 2: why myself, Mindy and producer Anna are heading to Staten Island.

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Speaker 1: We're on a pilgrimage back.

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Speaker 2: To the place where our lost sister first appeared before

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Speaker 2: she got irreversibly tangled up with the story of Gailcats

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Speaker 2: and our lives. We get ushered onto the ferry and

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Speaker 2: grab a seat downstairs, leaving the other tourists shivering on deck.

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Speaker 1: It is h I'm really lucky.

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Speaker 2: It's not raining. M h.

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Speaker 1: Even if it's a little cold.

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Speaker 2: It's a little cold is an understated I'm happy to

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Speaker 2: know I got it, but I will give New York

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Speaker 2: it stews. Despite the cold, it's a beautiful day. There

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Speaker 2: isn't a cloud in the sky, and the water is shimmering,

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Speaker 2: reflecting the Manhattan Skyline back onto its own high rise windows.

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Speaker 2: Just for a moment, we feel like we're on vacation,

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Speaker 2: with Mindy Shapiro in the role of tour guide.

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Speaker 5: Statue of Liberty, hey Hey, New York, New Ywick.

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Speaker 2: As we move past Brooklyn and then through the industrial

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Speaker 2: parts of the Bay, I wonder if we're retracing a

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Speaker 2: journey our Jane Doe could have taken through the water

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Speaker 2: before her torso washed up on the shore on May

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Speaker 2: twenty one, nineteen eighty nine. It gives me a kind

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Speaker 2: of spooky feeling to imagine we're following in her footsteps,

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Speaker 2: so to speak.

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Speaker 5: Everybody seems to be going out our boat docks at

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Speaker 5: Saint George's Terminal in Staten Island.

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Speaker 2: We follow the crowd into a building which has the

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Speaker 2: vibe of a small town strip mall, and after an

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Speaker 2: embarrassing amount of time spent trying to find the exit,

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Speaker 2: we eventually make it out.

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Speaker 6: Okay Street.

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Speaker 5: Where on the street Okay.

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Speaker 2: After a short drive, we arrive at Front Street, the

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Speaker 2: location where the torso first washed ashore. When we get

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Speaker 2: out of the car, we emerge into a new industrial landscape.

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Speaker 2: There's apartment buildings, offices, and construction sites, and in front of.

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Speaker 5: Us, well, here are the piers.

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Speaker 2: Most of the piers are fenced off due to building works,

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Speaker 2: and we can't spot an entry point, so I get

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Speaker 2: creative joy wirecutters. As we're looking for a spot to

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Speaker 2: enter totally legally, we notice that none of these piers

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Speaker 2: are matching the location we had in our minds. We

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Speaker 2: always imagined that she was found on the water's edge,

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Speaker 2: but there's no beaches here, it's just water right up

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Speaker 2: to the ocean wall. So we walk a little further

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Speaker 2: out and that's when we see it.

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Speaker 5: I'm just looking at a little beachhead right over there. Yeah, like,

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Speaker 5: this kind of beach area.

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Speaker 1: Looks more like what I imagined.

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Speaker 4: And I swear I heard that it washed.

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Speaker 1: Washed Sure, sure I remember those words.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this feels way more like it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, this seems right.

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Speaker 2: We arrived at some rail lanes fencing off a shingle

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Speaker 2: beach with some old wooden posts jutting out of the water.

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Speaker 2: It's a remarkably peaceful scene with the waves crashing gently

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Speaker 2: onto the pebbles, and probably for the first time in

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Speaker 2: our goddamn lives, all three of us shut up.

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Speaker 1: The whole thing is so horrific.

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Speaker 5: But standing here, this is actually quite a beautiful scene

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Speaker 5: beneath the bridge and the New York skyline and the

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Speaker 5: sound of the water. So as violent and horrific as

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Speaker 5: her death would have been, you know, maybe there is

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Speaker 5: some karma, that there's some calmness and beauty to where

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Speaker 5: her her heart was found.

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Speaker 2: You know, it also makes me really think about Gail

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Speaker 2: and how she was just discarded into the water. Bob Beerenbaum,

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Speaker 2: my ex boyfriend, and Gail Katz's husband, threw Gail's body

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Speaker 2: out of a plane into the Atlantic Ocean. It's unlikely

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Speaker 2: that Gail's body will ever be found, which only makes

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Speaker 2: our investigation into our Jane Doo's identity all the more meaningful.

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Speaker 2: To think of someone's life taken not only way too short,

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Speaker 2: but then disposed of the way it was, and then

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Speaker 2: the torso washes up here. I just find it incredibly sad.

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Speaker 2: It's almost like it's become the moral obligation to find her.

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Speaker 2: Now that we're here, in this spot where it all began,

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Speaker 2: we feel like it's important to mark the occasion with

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Speaker 2: the ceremony of sorts. It can often be hard to

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Speaker 2: know what to say when you're dealing with death, especially

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Speaker 2: death as tragic and brutal as these two.

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Speaker 1: So I thought i'd read something.

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Speaker 2: There's this beautiful poem that people often read at funerals

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Speaker 2: called remember Me, And if you listen to the words,

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Speaker 2: I think you'll agree that it's fitting. To the living,

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Speaker 2: I am gone, to the sorrowful, I will never return

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Speaker 2: to the angry I was cheated, But to the happy

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Speaker 2: I am at peace, And.

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Speaker 1: To the faithful.

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Speaker 2: I have never left. I cannot speak, but I can listen.

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Speaker 2: I cannot be seen, but.

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Speaker 1: I can be heard.

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Speaker 2: So as you stand upon a shore, gazing at a

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Speaker 2: beautiful sea, as you look upon a flower and admire

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Speaker 2: its simplicity, remember me, Remember me in your heart, your thoughts,

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Speaker 2: and your memories of the times we loved, the times

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Speaker 2: we cried, the times we fought, the times we laughed.

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Speaker 2: For if you always think of me, I will never

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Speaker 2: have gone. That's really pretty.

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Speaker 5: I think this was very perfect and Elaine would be pleased. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 5: we didn't do this for Gail.

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Speaker 1: Well, because we didn't have closure for Gail. No, you know,

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Speaker 1: and so this is.

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Speaker 5: Just a double mitzvah.

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Speaker 2: A mitzvah is a good deed, and we hope that

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Speaker 2: this whole series will be a mitzvah, a chance for

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Speaker 2: us to not only identify this missing woman, but to

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Speaker 2: honor her, to honor Gail Katz, and in doing so,

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Speaker 2: to honor all women who are missing or unidentified. I'm

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Speaker 2: sure this won't be a seamless journey. We're taking a

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Speaker 2: leap into the unknown here, and anything could happen. But

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Speaker 2: I can promise you one thing. It's going to be

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Speaker 2: fueled by a whole lot of love and a bunch of.

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Speaker 1: Food and good wine.

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Speaker 2: Which brings me to the next step in our investigation.

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Speaker 2: We're going back to Elaine's home for food and of

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Speaker 2: course some wine, but also because she's managed to dig

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Speaker 2: out a stash of files that may hold the key

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Speaker 2: to identifying our lost sister.

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Speaker 4: Be sure, you guys, I'm hungry.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna I have food myself into.

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Speaker 2: A stupid When you arrive in any Jewish mother's house,

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Speaker 2: she will always have more than you need on the table.

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Speaker 2: We can't help it, and a lain Cats is no exception.

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Speaker 2: So yes, I cry. I'll take your many bottles of wine,

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Speaker 2: your cheese, your chocolates and crackers, even if I'm not

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Speaker 2: actually hungry, because there's no better way of showing your

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Speaker 2: love to a Jewish mother than consuming whatever she puts

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Speaker 2: in front of you. And they're nestled in among the

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Speaker 2: appetizers is just what we came for. The Holy Grail

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Speaker 2: a two inch thick folder of documents.

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Speaker 3: By the way, I am made a second at all

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Speaker 3: of my documents from the medical Examiner, which are quite extensive.

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Speaker 2: I believe it's all of Elaine's files from our sister

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Speaker 2: Gail's case.

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Speaker 5: You know there's a lot there.

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Speaker 4: Look at all these now, yeah, the postillios.

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Speaker 2: As we start flicking through them, it takes me and

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Speaker 2: Mindy back to the nineties when a group of us

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Speaker 2: girlfriends were investigating Gail's disappearance and drinking wine. And now

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Speaker 2: thirty years on, we're round another table with more wine.

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Speaker 2: But our club has grown, our sisterhood is stronger. This

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Speaker 2: time we're joined by Anna Elaine, and we're all here

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Speaker 2: to do something momentous in honor of the women who

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Speaker 2: can't be here.

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Speaker 3: I need to always feel like I'm doing something in

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Speaker 3: memory of and in honor of my sister in order

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Speaker 3: to live with the sadness of all of it.

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Speaker 1: Does it come in way? Sor said constant?

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Speaker 3: I had to tell you, it's constant as always.

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Speaker 2: It's this constant pain that's driving Elane to help us

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Speaker 2: identify this Jane Doe. After all, her torso spent nearly

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Speaker 2: a decade in her sister Gail's grave and Elaine doesn't

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Speaker 2: even know her name. But that's not the only reason

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Speaker 2: she wants to help. Elaine knows what it's like to

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Speaker 2: have a loved one disappear and to be left so

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Speaker 2: long without any answers.

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Speaker 4: That was something that was really important to me, reuniting

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Speaker 4: the family with the torso, giving another family closure.

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Speaker 2: As another glass of wine is poured, we turn our

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Speaker 2: attention back to the files. We want to find out

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Speaker 2: how our Jane Doe was ever misidentified as Gail.

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Speaker 1: In the first place.

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Speaker 2: In the box of files we find a document that

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Speaker 2: talks about a number of complaints from the Cat's family

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Speaker 2: to the Manhattan Medical Examiner. It seems like in nineteen ninety,

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Speaker 2: the year after the torso was identified as Gail Cats,

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Speaker 2: that communication had really broken down between the Cat's family

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Speaker 2: and the office of the Chief Medical Examiner. The family,

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Speaker 2: who were in deep grief at the time, wanted absolute

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Speaker 2: proof that the torso belonged to Gail, which meant DNA testing,

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Speaker 2: and they weren't the only ones with doubts.

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Speaker 1: The police had them too.

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Speaker 2: So with growing pressure from all sides, in nineteen ninety,

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Speaker 2: the medical examiners decided to proceed with DNA testing. They

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Speaker 2: first asked the Catses if they could exhume the body,

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Speaker 2: but then they go back on themselves and they say

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Speaker 2: that actually they may not need to exhume the torso

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Speaker 2: because they kept some bone fragments.

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Speaker 4: Without my knowing, they kept a piece of her for

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Speaker 4: further testing without our permission. I had a little enough

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Speaker 4: piece to start with, and you took a piece. You

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Speaker 4: kept a peace.

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Speaker 2: Yes, the DNA testing was inconclusive. The science just wasn't

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Speaker 2: there yet. We find a handwritten note in the box

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Speaker 2: of files that says, if DNA cannot be done, we'll

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Speaker 2: stand by ID. And so that's how our lost sister

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Speaker 2: continued to be known as gael Cats for eight more years.

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Speaker 2: So what evidence did they have to make such a

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Speaker 2: big call will it all seems pretty thin to me.

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Speaker 2: Both women were light skinned and slim, and each of

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Speaker 2: them was around thirty years old. They also both had

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Speaker 2: similar back injuries, which the medical examiner highlighted by comparing

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Speaker 2: an X ray of the torso with an old X

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Speaker 2: ray of Gales.

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Speaker 1: According to the medical examiner, this.

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Speaker 2: Was the most persuasive piece of evidence they had to

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Speaker 2: suggest that this torso belonged to Galecats, But even the

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Speaker 2: radiologists at the time said that definite idea is not possible,

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Speaker 2: but that it was probably the same patient. Probably really,

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Speaker 2: but there's one major fact that they seem to have

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Speaker 2: totally overlooked in all this. In nineteen eighty nine, Gale

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Speaker 2: had been presumed dead for four years, yet according to

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Speaker 2: the Medical Examiner's own autopsy report, the tourists who had

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Speaker 2: only been in the water for about two to three months.

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Speaker 2: We could spend a lifetime trying to understand why these

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Speaker 2: decisions were made. We already spent the whole first series scratching.

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Speaker 1: Our heads about it. We'll have to add this.

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Speaker 2: To our long list of questions for the medical examiner.

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Speaker 2: But it's getting late, and that's a job for another day.

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Speaker 2: In the taxi home, Mindy and Anna are chatting away,

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Speaker 2: excited to see what more they can learn from the files.

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Speaker 2: But I just keep hearing that phrase go around in

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Speaker 2: my head. Probably the same patient that Probably it didn't

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Speaker 2: just mess up Gail's case, it also stopped any further

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Speaker 2: investigation into our lost sister's true identity for years. There

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Speaker 2: could be a family out there looking for her and

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Speaker 2: a killer getting away with it. These mistakes have real

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Speaker 2: life consequences, and if you can't rely on the authorities

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Speaker 2: to get it right, then you should probably.

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Speaker 6: Do it yourself.

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Speaker 2: It's the morning after Elaine gave us the files, Anna

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Speaker 2: and Mindy are riding on the New York Subway, each

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Speaker 2: of them nursing a slight red wine hangover. So what

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Speaker 2: better time to read an autopsy report. These documents obviously

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Speaker 2: don't make for easy reading, not least because doctor Mindy's

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Speaker 2: getting a taste of her own medicine.

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Speaker 5: This is not fair making me read another doctor's writing. No. No.

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Speaker 2: Eventually, Mindy manages to decipher the reports. They're from June

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty nine, one month after the torso washed up

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Speaker 2: on Staten Island and was first investigated by the medical examiners.

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Speaker 5: I'm reading that autopsy report. It was pretty futrip, was it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. We're not going to share the more sensitive details

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Speaker 2: about her remains, because our girl has already had so

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Speaker 2: much taken from her. But there's one important detail we

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Speaker 2: can share with you.

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Speaker 1: Just a heads up.

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Speaker 2: The next section contains some details that might be hard

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Speaker 2: to listen to.

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Speaker 1: It was clear that both.

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Speaker 2: Her limbs and head had been deliberately cut off, meaning

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Speaker 2: the end of her life was a violent, horrible act.

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Speaker 2: She didn't just fall off some boat into shark infested waters.

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Speaker 1: And there's more.

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Speaker 5: So we're looking at the toxicology report from the New

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Speaker 5: York City Medical Examiner's data.

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Speaker 2: It's important to note that her torso has been in

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Speaker 2: the water for a while, so not everything will show up,

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Speaker 2: but they do detect something something that showed that our

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Speaker 2: Jane Doe had recently taken cocaine. But it's New York

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Speaker 2: in the eighties, so a bit of cocaine in the system.

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Speaker 2: Frankly doesn't really narrow down our list of potential victims.

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Speaker 1: Our lost sister could still be anyone.

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Speaker 2: But if she was killed by someone or she's been

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Speaker 2: registered as a missing person, then we might be able

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Speaker 2: to find her case online. And if there's one thing

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Speaker 2: Mindy's good at, it's going deep into dark corners of

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Speaker 2: the web.

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Speaker 5: So I go to a site Unsolved the Murders. Oh god, yeah,

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Speaker 5: but you didn't give me anything to go on, baby,

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Speaker 5: I have.

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Speaker 1: Nothing nothing, I've got nothing. Okay, I got bupp Gus.

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Speaker 1: I got buff gus here.

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Speaker 2: So, unfortunately, there's no huge, flashing website that says Staten

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Speaker 2: Island Torso cold case solved. But Mindy's got a hunch

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Speaker 2: that a vital clue about our lost sister's identity could

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Speaker 2: be sitting somewhere in the archives of the New York

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Speaker 2: City Medical Examiners, and I think it's safe to say

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Speaker 2: she's been pestering them.

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Speaker 5: I have written about eighteen emails to the office of

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Speaker 5: the Medical Examiner, and they basically say, unless you're the family,

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Speaker 5: you can't really get this information. I said, well, she's

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Speaker 5: an identified how could there be any family And I

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Speaker 5: don't know that I'm not.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that I'm not the family. What is

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Speaker 1: family really?

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Speaker 2: Because calling this Jane Do our lost sister is no accident.

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Speaker 1: We've been thinking about her for a long time.

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Speaker 2: And at one point Elaine Kat truly believed she was

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Speaker 2: her sister.

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Speaker 1: She certainly feels like family to us. I told them.

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Speaker 5: About Gail and how he got there, and they said, well,

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Speaker 5: do you want to speak with media? And I said no,

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Speaker 5: I don't want to speak with media, and you go, well,

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Speaker 5: what are you going to do with this information.

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00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 2: Well, hopefully solve a thirty five year old cold case

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00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: and talk about it on this podcast, and they.

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00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 5: Go, well, you need to speak with legal.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 5: So I'm waiting to hear from Lee. If I don't

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Speaker 5: hear from legal, because I'm pushing in.

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Speaker 1: I'm a New Yorker and I know where they live.

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00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 5: I'll go and say I want to speak to legal.

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00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 2: Guess what we never heard from legal. So we turn

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Speaker 2: up the heat and file a Freedom of information access request,

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Speaker 2: but we're still waiting to hear back.

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Speaker 1: It looks like if we're going to.

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Speaker 2: Get anywhere, we're going to need to start knocking on

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Speaker 2: some doors, whether people want us to or not. Coming

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Speaker 2: up next on The girlfriends Our Lost Sister, Doctor Detective

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Speaker 2: Mindy Shapiro takes to the streets.

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Speaker 5: Hi, it's doctor Shapiro, and I'd like to speak with

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Speaker 5: the deputy medical Examiner. I'd like all information that I

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Speaker 5: can find about that torso. Could you say perpetrator for me?

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Speaker 3: Perpetrator were trying to identify this torso, which is maybe

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Speaker 3: a fool errand I don't.

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Speaker 1: Think it is.

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Speaker 2: The girlfriends Our Last Sister is produced by Novel for

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00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: iHeart Podcasts. For more from novel, visit novel dot Audio.

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00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 2: The show is hosted by me, Carol Fisher, and our

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00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 2: chief investigator is Mindy Shapiro. To find me on social media,

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00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 2: search Carol A.

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00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: Fisher. That's Carol with an E.

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00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 2: The season is written and produced by Anna Sinfield and

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00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 2: Lee Meyer. Our assistant producer is Madeline Parr. The editor

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00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 2: is Joe Wheeler.

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00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: Max O'Brien is.

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Speaker 2: Our executive producer. Our fact checker is Dannia Suleiman. Production

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00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 2: management from Shurie Houston and Charlotte Woolf. Sound design, mixing

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00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 2: and scoring by Nicholas Alexander, Additional engineering by Daniel Kempson,

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00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 2: Music supervision by Anna Sinfield and Nicholas Alexander. Original music

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00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 2: composed and performed by Luisa Gerstein and produced by Luisa

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00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 2: Gerstine and Nicholas Alexander. The series artwork was designed by

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00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 2: Christina Limpol. Story development by Anna Sinfield. Willard Foxton is

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00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: creative director of development. Our executive producers at iHeart Podcasts

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00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: are Katrina Norvel and nicki Etour special thanks to Ali Canter,

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Speaker 2: Carrie Lieberman, and Will Pearson at iHeart podcast as well

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Speaker 2: as Carly Frankel and the whole.

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Speaker 1: Team at w MEE and Especial.

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Speaker 2: Shout out to Vince Hayward, who's my life partner in

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Speaker 2: true Crime, for taking on the role of girlfriend's confidante

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Speaker 2: and lead tech support

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Speaker 1: Novel