WEBVTT - Improving American Society Through Zoning Codes 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:08.920 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. You're listening to Bloomberg 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.280 Business Week with Karl Messer and Tim Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:17.040 The vice presidential candidates, Minnesota Governor Tim Walls and Ohio 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:20.200 Senator Jade Events, they spent a lot of time talking 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:23.000 about housing during Tuesday Night's presidential debate. 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:25.759 We in the state invested in making sure our housing 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:28.360 was the biggest investment that we'd ever made in housing. 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:30.560 It starts to make it easier. We cut some of 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:32.800 the red tape. Local folks. Look, we can't do it 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:34.920 at the federal level, but local folks make it easier 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:35.680 to build those homes. 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:37.120 Well, what Donald Trump has said is we have a 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:39.240 lot of federal lands that aren't being used for anything. 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:41.360 They're not being used for National Park, They're not being 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:43.839 used and they could be places where we build a 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:46.000 lot of housing. And I do think that we should 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:47.960 be opening up building in this country. 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:51.240 That was a JD Vance and before that Tim Walls 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:55.720 at the Tuesday Night a Vice presidential debate on CBS. 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:57.920 Many people argue that central to the housing crisis in 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:00.600 the US is zoning, the notion that only certain things 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.720 of certain sizes can be built in certain areas. We've 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:06.160 got with us the perfect guest to help us understand 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:09.120 this and to what extent that's true. Sarah Bronan is 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:11.720 professor of law and here been planning at Cornell University. 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:13.440 She's the author of a new book. It's called Key 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:16.520 to the City, How Zoning Shapes our World. She joins 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:19.480 us from Washington, d C. Professor, good to have you 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:23.920 with us. Is the housing crisis in the US the 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:25.000 result of zoning? 0:01:26.520 --> 0:01:28.720 Well, first, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:33.440 talk about zoning. And I would argue that yes, zoning, 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:37.279 which is enacted at the local level by maybe thirty 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:41.320 thousand counties and cities and towns across the country, has 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:44.800 huge impacts on our housing market and our ability to 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:48.200 provide affordable and accessible housing to people who need it. 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:52.000 We're talking about the idea of nimbiism and the idea 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:54.400 that in certain areas you're only allowed to build a 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:57.240 single family home of a certain size on a certain 0:01:57.280 --> 0:02:00.720 plot of land. And if Carol, we had zoning for 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:04.800 more dense housing, we could build more housing and provide 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:05.640 more people with shelter. 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:08.960 Yeah, so, how you know, I feel like this is 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:12.679 something that we have been talking about for a long time, right, 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:17.600 the housing shortages, and for people who work in major 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:20.280 cities who can't afford to live in those cities, and 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:22.600 nobody wants to build, and so they've got to commute 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:24.720 long commutes to get into the city. 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:25.520 To get to their jobs. 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:30.079 So how do we change some of this And is 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:34.280 it if we could just change zoning, would everything be fine? 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:37.200 Well, zoning is definitely just one piece of the puzzle. 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:40.760 But Carol, you raised a really good example of people 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:43.880 who have to live maybe out in the suburbs because 0:02:43.880 --> 0:02:46.760 we're not building enough housing where they want to live. 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:47.760 Or how they want to live. 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:52.600 So typically in this country, across far too many jurisdictions, 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:56.440 we've seen zoning that provides what you might consider one 0:02:56.480 --> 0:03:00.200 size fits all or cookie cutter development, a house on 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:02.600 a half acre or an acre, or even the size 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:05.519 of a football field about two acres or more, all 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:09.120 across this country dictated by zoning rules, and so we 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:12.360 don't see town homes, we don't see multi family housing, 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:16.320 we don't see more affordable options or more appealing options 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:18.920 to people who may not want to drive, to seniors 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:20.760 who want to age in place. In some of those 0:03:20.800 --> 0:03:24.239 suburbs and in their small towns, we're not really providing 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:27.079 that diversity of housing, and I think that has had 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:31.600 huge ripple effects on our economy and on our growth. 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:35.920 When you think about zoning, is it twofold or threefold 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:39.760 or fourfold? In other words, is it about supply? Is 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.400 it about variety of housing being afforded? Is it also 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:48.480 about thinking about this space itself? And that sometimes means 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:55.040 open space and places to farm, do urban farming whatever, like, 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:57.160 it's a lot of components. 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:00.760 Yeah, I think it's all of the But I want 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:02.800 to touch on the last thing that you mentioned, which 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:08.360 is essentially the characteristic of all these large zoning codes 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:12.280 that make us push farther outward into farmland and into 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:16.599 forest land. And essentially what we have said to developers 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:19.480 to property owners is if you want housing, you've got 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:22.920 to go outward to build. Now, that's a big problem 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:25.000 for us from an environmental standpoint. 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:25.680 It's also a. 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:29.279 Big problem from a food security standpoint. So the point 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.200 I try to make in the book is, hey, look around. 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.320 Zoning is controlling a lot of the outcomes that we see, 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:38.120 and some of the outcomes that we probably don't really want, 0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:41.440 not just as a resident in a particular town, but 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.680 as Americans on the whole, trying to think about a 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:49.440 broader approach to land development that will benefit our economy, 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:53.200 our society, our food security, our transportation security, and so 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:56.440 much more. But housing, I think is one of the 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:58.640 core issues. And when it comes to zoning. 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:01.320 What about something like historic preservation? And I'm asking you 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:04.200 because you have a lot of experience with historic preservation. 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:07.720 You served as the chair of the Advisory Council and 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.240 historic preservation. Is that a position you still have. I 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:12.880 think you're on office until twenty twenty five. 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:18.279 Yes, I still serve in this federal role, but I'm 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:22.840 talking today in my professor role and as a preservationist. 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:26.920 And from a zoning code standpoint, you do see a 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:30.000 lot of zoning codes that do integrate some nod. 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:31.440 To historic structures. 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:35.400 And I think we love most about historic neighborhoods is 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:37.480 you know, they're lively, they're dynamic. I think, got a 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.400 lot of mix of uses, and they're beautiful. And to 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:44.000 the extent that zoning can encourage that kind of formula, 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:48.000 they don't now too often, but to encourage that and 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:52.120 maybe to recreate and support the historic neighborhoods we have all. 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:55.279 The better, But is there this tension there between preserving 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:59.000 history but also making sure that you rezone something for 0:05:59.120 --> 0:05:59.679 the future. 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.400 I think. I mean, if you're thinking about you know, 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:07.719 there's a lot of dialogue about preservation being intension with 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:11.280 housing development in particular, but if you look actually at 0:06:11.279 --> 0:06:14.080 the research, So I'll put on my professor. 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.360 Lea, I will say you have a lot of different hats. 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:17.080 I think it's. 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:22.880 You know, just to say that, you know, the research 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:26.920 has shown that historic districts in cities including New York 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:30.480 City and la are denser than non historic districts. 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:31.360 And why is that. 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:36.320 It's because typically in historic neighborhoods, we've always allowed historic 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:39.159 buildings to grow and change. If you think about, you know, 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:43.279 before zone zoning was imposed about one hundred years ago 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:46.720 on lots of towns that already existed, and so you know, 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:48.960 you have that layer. And one of the things that 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:51.479 I've noticed, I have a project called the National Zoning 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:53.560 out List that log zoning codes all over the country. 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.520 One of the things I've noticed is that zoning codes 0:06:56.560 --> 0:07:02.360 have often like what gone reverse, how a neighborhood initially developed. 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:06.240 For example, many zoning codes on what you might consider 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.920 a historic main street say no housing on the upper floors. Well, 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:12.480 that's exactly how those buildings developed, and that's what made 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:16.080 those neighborhoods so vibrant and so attractive. Zoning fifty years 0:07:16.080 --> 0:07:17.880 ago might have said, okay, now this is one hundred 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:21.360 percent commercial uses. You can't put housing up. But you 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:23.480 know that was a bad idea. We should go back 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:27.080 to that historic mixing. We should go back to a 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:29.600 twenty four to seven, you know, concept of some of 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:32.720 these places so that we can really, I think, revitalize 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:33.520 those communities. 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:34.600 This is super interesting. 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:36.640 I wasn't joking when I said she has a lot 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:41.520 of hats. She's an architect, she's an attorney, she's a policymaker, 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:44.520 an author, and a professor, just to name a few things. 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:47.440 So okay, now I feel like I've done nothing with 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:47.960 my life. 0:07:48.600 --> 0:07:52.640 It is super impressive. Having said that, I'm listening to you, 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:53.680 and I feel like, so what. 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:57.360 I live in a historic neighborhood, and you know, there 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:00.040 are rules when you do things, and it's as the 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.040 years have gone by, the rules have gotten even tougher. 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:04.680 And that has to do with adding on and all 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:08.120 that kind of stuff. And yet the city seems to 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:12.560 push in terms of newer development, squeezing things in almost everywhere. 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:14.000 And it's getting to point where's a little bit of 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:16.840 a pushback and fight to kind of preserve some of 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:21.560 the open space or preserve some of the old you know, 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:25.160 train embankment or something like that that is part of 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:29.280 the neighborhood. When does you know what's the right balance 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.319 and how you think about development that is needed, maybe 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:35.360 in terms of housing, but then there's over development that 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:37.800 just makes it not a great place to live. 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:39.040 How do we assess that. 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:44.320 So zoning can be a really good tool for providing 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.840 and protecting for urban space, for open space, especially in 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:51.600 urban environments, and you know, you can zone for open space, 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:53.760 you can zone for parkland, as they point out in 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:55.760 the book, you can zone for street trees and the 0:08:55.880 --> 0:09:00.160 kind of environmental infrastructure that actually can benefit us, make 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:04.000 us healthier, make us calmer. But going back to your 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:09.240 question on density in historic neighborhoods, I'm a proponent of 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:12.719 lots of different housing options, whether it's carriage house conversions 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:17.880 to accessory dwelling units, or you know, allowing for one, two, 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:22.400 three family housing where it's appropriate. But I'm also a 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:25.600 big fan of looking outside of those historic districts to 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:29.360 say what kind of compatible development can happen that can 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:33.080 be complementary of the existing historic districts, because you do 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:35.920 want to keep that sense of virucy, you do want 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:40.040 to allow historic neighborhoods to change. And I will say, 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:44.080 you know, thinking about the approach to historic preservation, you've 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.880 talked about, you know, add ons and additions, there's a 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.520 whole other set of rules, historic preservation rules, design control 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:53.559 rules that layer on top of zoning and that I've 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:58.079 argued in other work is maybe sometimes too restrictive when 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:00.880 we think too much about the material of a place 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.680 and not about sort of the long term goals of 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:05.840 the community and the people who live there. And I 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:08.320 think housing is one of those places where we could 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:11.080 stand a little bit more flexibility when it comes to 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:13.599 those design rules. I'll also just add, you know, I 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:16.160 don't know where you live, but places like New York City, 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:19.040 places like Hartford, where I had shared the Planning and 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:21.760 Zoning Commission, have really taken a look at a different 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:25.360 kind of historic building stock. And that's industrial and manufacturing 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.559 building stock and trying to figure out ways to rezone 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:31.760 that for housing. Lots of cities have often sort of 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:35.200 adopted a zoning code and then left it there for decades. 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:40.800 I think that has really hurt the revitalization redevelopment of 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:45.760 industrial neighborhoods and these big mill buildings and factories that. 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:47.120 Aren't well positioned. 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.199 We don't have the same kind of manufacturing demands anymore, 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:52.640 but often they're in a neighborhood which had work or 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:56.720 housing around it. So thinking about those historic buildings, repurposing 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:59.320 those I think is also an important thing for cities 0:10:59.360 --> 0:10:59.600 to do. 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.240 Definitely in our neighborhood where they've repurposed some of it 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:04.760 for residential. Now some of them have been torn down 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:06.480 and maybe that's they just made choices that it just 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:08.640 didn't make any sense. It becomes a mixture, but some 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:09.880 have been definitely repurposed. 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:12.280 And Sarah, I live in South Brooklyn and the Gowanas 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:15.760 area is a former industrial area that has been rezoned 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:21.000 from a commercial and industrial into residential and one challenge 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:23.960 that they've faced is that they're toxic chemicals that were 0:11:24.080 --> 0:11:27.480 used in industry over the last couple of centuries that 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:29.679 are now seeping up, so that state now has to 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:32.600 figure out a way to contain these because so many 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:36.240 thousands of homes are being built there right now. We're 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:40.320 gonna do some Yeah, we're going to hold that thought 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:41.840 because we're going to come back. We're going to do 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:45.200 some news. Professor Sarah Bronan, she's the professor of law 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:47.720 and or been planning at Cornell University. She's an architect, 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:50.080 she's an attorney. She's the author of a new book, 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:52.800 Key to the City, How Zoning Shapes Our World. I 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:54.760 want to get right back to Sarah Bronan, professor of 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:56.720 Law and a been planning at Cornell. She's the author 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:58.520 of the new book Key to the City, How Zoning 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:01.480 Shapes Our World. She joins us once again from Washington, 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:03.800 d C. I promised we'd talk about a little bit 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:05.920 about Guwanas and then we're going to go around the country. 0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:09.280 In the last few minutes that we have, Professor Brown 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:12.320 and you were saying something about guanas and the conversion 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:15.120 from an industrial area to a residential area and the 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:18.439 challenges that the area is dealing with toxic chemicals. 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:22.360 And that's why I said at the beginning of this 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.560 conversation that zoning is just one piece and so thinking 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:29.120 about you know, when cities are trying to figure out 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:32.520 how do we revitalize this neighborhood, zoning is a critical 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.880 part because it says how it can be revitalized. But 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:38.960 there's all of these other issues too, including financing, including 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:42.440 environmental cleanup. You've tackled it in New York City at 0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:44.840 Guanas with a huge rezoning and you know, done some 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:48.840 cleanup and you see a lot of development happening and 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:51.800 on the way. I use Baltimore in the book to 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:55.840 talk about a different kind of industrial rehabilitation effort that's 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:59.000 happening in the Remington neighborhood there, and different cities at 0:12:59.000 --> 0:13:02.000 different scales are trying different things, but in all of them, 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:06.719 when you're thinking about revitalizing a neighborhood, reviving its economy, 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:12.160 making new connections, making neighborhoods more accessible, zoning is an 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:13.840 essential part of the discussion. 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:16.200 I want to go continue kind of with our some 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:18.320 other places around the country. Having said that, I do 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:21.000 want to ask you, might it be a city like 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:26.960 Atlantic City or Detroit where revitalizing it continues to be 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:30.240 year after year a struggle. Are there some areas that 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.079 cannot be revitalized. 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:38.920 So both of these cities present very different studies of 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.400 the issues. I mean when it comes to Detroit, I 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:44.640 think what has happened there as has happened in Hartford 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:50.160 in Buffalo similarly, post industrial cities that have seen population 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:54.040 loss and have seen disinvestment, is that increasingly city leaders 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:57.080 have turned to the zoning code. In Detroit's case, lots 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:00.240 of different uses allowed in places they weren't before or 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:03.439 as well as urban agriculture. You see that in Hertford. 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.320 Again where I work in Buffalo you saw and in 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:10.160 Hertford you see elimination of minimum parking requirements which and 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:14.440 pose significant costs on new housing. Those moves have really 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:20.040 helped to encourage new investment because developers know with greater 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:23.480 certainty exactly how much money they'll have to spend in 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:25.760 order to get a development over the finish line, and 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:29.920 also thinking about things like process improvements. Zoning codes can 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:32.560 be thousands of pages long in the case of New 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:34.640 York City, and believe it or not, Boston is at 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:36.800 the very top of the list at I think thirty 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:41.560 eight hundred pages of zoning code and that I think 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:45.040 comes with it inherently. It's a complexity, and so stripping 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.360 away some of that complexity, writing the rules of the 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:51.960 game in advance is a strategy that places like Detroit 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:57.080 can use to help to spur economic growth through the 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:00.400 creation of certainty. And you see that across regulations, right, business, 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:06.040 business people want certainty, and zoning is no different and land, 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.080 of course a highly important commodity. 0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:13.760 Okay, can we talk cars real quick? You mentioned minimum 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.800 parking requirement being removed, something I think they did with 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:19.160 some projects in New York City. 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:20.320 What does that mean minimum? 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:22.720 So correct me if I'm wrong, professor, But the idea 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:26.120 with a development, you have to guarantee a certain number 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:29.640 of parking spaces per number of units in a building. 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:30.160 Is that right? 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:31.800 That's right? 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:35.440 So what that means in some cases we've seen codes 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:40.640 that require four parking spaces for a single apartment. Often 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:43.880 what that means is that you're building more parking than housing. 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:47.200 So what does that tell you about the jurisdiction's approach 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:51.000 to housing development. It's almost like they're stacking the deck 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:54.920 against new housing. We also know that parking is it's 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.360 not beautiful. It's a lot of pavement. It is not 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:01.000 necessary in places like New York City. But I'm going 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:03.200 to use New York City as an example. I know 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.040 they're trying to change that right now with the City 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:09.360 of Yes zoning proposal, but right now, overwhelmingly in New 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:12.800 York City, a place where I think the majority of 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:15.760 residents don't have cars or don't use them regularly, there 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:19.600 are minimum parking requirements in the vast majority of land 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:24.200 in New York City, including in Manhattan. Just posted New 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:26.800 York City to the national zoning out lists. It's a 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:29.200 zoning outlest dot org if anybody wants to check it out, 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.920 and you can see where those minimum parking requirements exist. 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:36.560 And it's not the way that we should be developing 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.320 our cities. We should be promoting lots of different kinds 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:42.080 of ways of moving around, because again, not everybody wants 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:44.200 to drive, not everybody can afford a car. 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.240 It's a perfect segway. Sorry I want to jump in 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:48.680 because we only have three minutes left, but it's the 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.240 perfect segway to talk about public transit and cars in 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:53.320 the United States. And it just to me feels like 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:58.160 this is such a car centric culture and this country 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:02.000 was designed essentially for the Autumn Biel. And it makes 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.200 me think that so much of what we see with 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:07.800 zoning and development is inextricably bound to the idea that 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:10.560 we are driving ourselves from one place to another place. 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:12.240 Convince me that I'm wrong. 0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:13.680 You're right. 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:15.880 Is that what you wanted to hear, because. 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:17.280 No, that's not what I wanted to hear. 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:21.680 And I think it has huge negative consequences, not only 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:24.520 on the environment in the form of sprawl, which we've 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:27.880 talked about, but also on our health. And I used 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:30.440 in the book an example of a neighborhood in Hartford 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:33.440 where you have a thoroughfare that was rezoned in the 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:36.800 nineteen fifties when we thought, oh, suburban commuters is exactly 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:39.280 what we need to provide for and zone for gas 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:43.000 stations and parking lots and strip malls and fast food joints. 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:47.400 And guess what happens. That's what that particular avenue became 0:17:48.040 --> 0:17:50.560 to the detriment in the form of asthma, in the 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:56.159 form of obesity related illnesses of people in the immediate neighborhood. 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:58.520 And so just in that one story, you see the 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:02.320 power of zoning to completely reshape a community. An urban 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:06.680 community that had been built out a century or more ago, 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:11.679 that area with beautiful buildings on it, walkable and so on, 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:13.920 and a lot of that got changed over. I think 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:17.399 it's a nineteen fifties nineteen sixties mindset. But again, too 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.600 many zoning codes have just been sitting there with these 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:24.120 cumulative effects on us now that we need to really revisit. 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:27.119 Sarah, I just got thirty seconds left hair climate change. 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:30.640 How is that going to probably up end zoning codes 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:32.040 in some ways just quickly. 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:38.400 Zoning is allowing far too many things to be built 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:42.919 in places we have no business building. We are doing 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:46.000 research on sea level rise. With the national zoning out lists, 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:48.199 we're going to be seeing a lot more data on 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:51.399 this come out, and I think to the extent that 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:53.879 we are making these little decisions at the local level, 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.880 we've got to start broadening this out and saying, how 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.720 are zoning codes affecting our ability as a nation to 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:02.560 respond to climate change? And I think our answer will 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.320 be unfortunately, we're not, but. 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:06.399 We can do better. 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:08.439 And that's the hope that I try to put forward 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:08.879 in the book. 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:09.960 We can always do better. 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.720 I agree with you, Sarah Brennan, she's professor of Law 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:15.640 and Urban Planning at Cornell University. Her new book, Key 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.240 to the City, How Zoning Shapes Our World. Great stuff 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:20.159 in at the book. She takes you to Ames, Iowa, 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.000 she takes you to Alabama, she takes you to Vegas, Georgetown. 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:27.280 Some specific situations and stories when it comes to zoning 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:27.879 around the country. 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:28.520 So really cool. 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.000 Check it out. Yeah, exactly zoning. 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:33.399 I think every time we talk about residential real estate, 0:19:33.720 --> 0:19:35.520 that comes up, right. 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:36.080 Yeah, and I thank you. 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:38.560 I think fine. And that's why it's so hard at 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:41.120 the federal level to make any change because these are 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:44.200 local rules and regulations. Zoning at the local level. 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:45.199 Right, you can't just make a blanket. 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:51.240 Yeah. This is Bloomberg Business Week inside from the reporters 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:54.679 and editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:58.520 plus global business, finance and tech news as it happens. 0:19:58.560 --> 0:20:02.960 Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck on 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:04.280 Bloomberg Radio. 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:08.800 It is Bloomberg Business Week on this Thursday afternoon. Is 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:09.480 that cheetos? 0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:09.840 Dust? 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:12.960 I see? Isn't a cheetah? 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:14.280 Is it a crazy story? 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.080 We don't have We had cheetos upstairs and this in 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:17.400 the blue. 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:19.680 I don't think it's a Bloomberg kind of snacky. 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.440 We had the baked cheetos. We didn't have them yesterday though, 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:25.880 because I was looking for them the spicy spicy bag cheetas. 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:26.560 Now, I don't know. 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:31.600 After seeing this journal report, Hey you mentioned in video, Yeah, 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:34.359 shares surged after CEO Jensen Wank said demand for the 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:38.119 Blackwell chips is quote insane. Some other news out of 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:40.960