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It was it was just 43 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: a strange turn of how it all unfolded for Cours. 44 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: You know, I'm just a little pass right now. I 45 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: know all the people feel different. I'm just putting my 46 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: feelings out there. This is a crazyness that we were 47 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: told Jude can do it. It just didn't know a 48 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: lot of things. Just didn't some of the stuff I'm 49 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: been about to tell you. I mean, if you're pissed now, 50 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: you're gonna get even more pissed off because I never 51 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: knew anything. I ain't never saiding. It's it's like for 52 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: you to hear all of this, Well, it's not what 53 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: I want to hear, but if it is what it is, Yeah, No, 54 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: I'm not buying the bullshit that. Yeah, I need to 55 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: stiff shot from iHeart Radio. I'm Melissa Jelson and this 56 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: is what happened to Sandy Beal an iHeart original podcast, 57 00:03:55,360 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: Chapter eight, Good Grief. The first time I went to 58 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: Maine to meet with the Beal family, it was summer 59 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: and the drive from the airport was lush and green. 60 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: It was on this trip when Ronnie, Sandy's youngest brother, 61 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: asked me what I hoped to achieve with the podcast, 62 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: When Sandy's mother, Joanne gave me the coat her daughter 63 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: was wearing on the night of her death, and when 64 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: I first got a real sense of Sandy as a person, 65 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: the Sandy the family described to me, she was fearless. 66 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: Five months later, I flew back to Maine with my 67 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: producer to see the Bells in person again. It was 68 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: late fall and the trees were a mix of orange 69 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: and brown and green. I was returning under different circumstances 70 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: than my first trip. This visit had a particular objective 71 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: to observe and record an emergency family meeting that Kim 72 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: had called. Kim wanted to share with the Bells what 73 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: she'd come to believe was true that Sandy had died 74 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: by suicide. The meeting was set to take place at 75 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: Sandy's brother, Stephen's home. To set the scene, imagine a tidy, 76 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: ranch style house, a kitchen teeming with food, two small 77 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: dogs running around underfoot. I arrived before the rest of 78 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: the family and made small talk with Stephen and his wife. 79 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: Soon Michael and his wife showed up with Joanne, who 80 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: was wearing sued cowboy boots be dazzled with rhinestones. We hugged, 81 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: talked about booster shots and COVID variants, and we waited 82 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: together for Kim. Until you can hear the nervousness in 83 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,799 Speaker 1: Ki's voice leading up to this meeting. She was really 84 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: worried about how the Bills would respond to what she 85 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: had to tell them. She didn't know if they'd see 86 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: things her way, or if they'd reject her position and 87 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: judge her for siding with the police. For decades, there'd 88 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: been a collective story that they all agreed on around 89 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: Sandy's death that whatever happened to Sandy, she hadn't died 90 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: by suicide. Kim had previously been part of the group, 91 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: In fact, the leader of the group, the one pushing 92 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: to reopen Sandy's case, convinced that there was something there. Now, 93 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: she worried that she'd blown Sandy's death up into something 94 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: it wasn't and wasted their time, added extra pain to 95 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: their suffering. She knew the Bills loved her and were 96 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: appreciative of all her work, but there was a part 97 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: of her that was scared she would need to beg 98 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: for their forgiveness. My notes are like, I'm really hoping 99 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 1: that i'd have time to sit down, but it's just 100 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: been too hard. So it is when it is, do 101 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: you have tea by tea. Within a few minutes of 102 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: Kim's arrival, the group migrated into the living room and 103 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: took seats around a boom mic that I'd brought. It 104 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: was a strange dichotomy, the most intimate of conversations undertaken 105 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: with the knowledge that everything was being recorded. Kim sat 106 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: in a large, pillowy recliner that seemed to swallow her frame. 107 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: Her feet didn't quite reach the floor, and she kept 108 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: readjusting her position, trying to get comfortable. I think that 109 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: the answers that I'm going to give you today will 110 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: naturally make that a closing place. Anyway, there are still 111 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: some answers that need to happen, but I think as 112 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: far as the story's concerned, it's shifted, and so I'm 113 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: hoping that we get more information after this, but we 114 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: may not. So I just want to kind of share 115 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: with you what we've uncovered in the past few months 116 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: since we saw you in June. Anyway, armed with her notes, 117 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: Kim began recounting her conversation with Bernie. She told them 118 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: how she went in fighting with a head of steam, 119 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: arguing and asking critical questions. She told the family how 120 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: they discussed Sandy's efforts to become a police officer and 121 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: the ride alongs that she did likely is part of 122 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: an official Explorer program. And so I'm just listening and 123 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: i said, well, what about the Explorer's program. I'm like, 124 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: so explained that. He said it was a way that 125 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: we encouraged people in high school to come because cops 126 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,599 Speaker 1: and they're having a hard time recruiting new police officers, 127 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:47,719 Speaker 1: so they were going to the high schools, hence the 128 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: ride along program and the Explorers. And I'm like, so, 129 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: you have a girl that wants to be a cop, 130 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 1: and she's doing everything you guys ask her to do. 131 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: She told them how Bernie acknowledged that there was likely 132 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: serious sexual misconduct taking place, and how she was disarmed 133 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: by his compassion and his frankness. He said, if I 134 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: was on the watch, they would have all been terminated 135 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: because I wouldn't have put up with any of that. 136 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: And I'm like, you know, if you see all these 137 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: questions that we have everything we've already talked about, no 138 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,479 Speaker 1: answers have been given, all these different things that are discrepancies, 139 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:23,320 Speaker 1: and you can see from our point of view that 140 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 1: we have questions. He's like, I absolutely see from your 141 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: point of view all of this may everything you're saying 142 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: makes sense. I watched Kim as she attempted to replicate 143 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: her conversation with Bernie, trying to create the same conditions 144 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: that had led to her own awakening. She spoke calmly 145 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: and carefully, referring often to her notes, before she got 146 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: to the piece of evidence that had clicked everything into 147 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: place for her. To help them visualize the scene, she 148 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: printed from the Internet a picture of an old Ford Pinto, 149 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: just like the one Sandy used to drive. So if 150 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: you look at this, this is the steering wheel, so 151 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: it matches up if you were to brace it. There 152 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: here you can pass that if you were to brace 153 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: it. It It just started feeling like making sense to me 154 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 1: that she did use that That's the only possible way 155 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: that she could have pulled that trigger, as if it 156 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: was had support of something. But when he said that 157 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: the gunpowder was on the steering wheel and it was 158 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: spraying back and I'm like, he goes. He said, Kim, 159 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: we can't. We can't deny the trajectory of this. When 160 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 1: when he said the there's gunpowder on the steering wheel, 161 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: that was kind of like, that's kind of very futable. 162 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: So it was almost like an Aha moment, like a 163 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: wake up call of oh my god, that could possibly 164 00:10:51,640 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: really be true. This Kim pivoted away from the forensic 165 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: evidence and started speaking from her gut. She now had 166 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: a new understanding of Sandy and her last months, and 167 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 1: she shared this with the Beels, how she believed Sandy 168 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: had been used and abused by men in power, and 169 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: how this had broken her. I think someone was there before. 170 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: I think she was alone then, and this is just 171 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: my knowing her and thinking through the situation. It's dark, 172 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,119 Speaker 1: it's twenty seven degrees outside, she just had sex with somebody. 173 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: She's alone, she's trying to get out, and I think 174 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: the trying to get out was possibly the straw that 175 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: broke the camel's back, and she just said fuck it. 176 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: Joanne had been listening intently. Now she interrupted, I think 177 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: you're right. I think the last hurrah was she was 178 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: trying to get out. Joanne's words they rushed out of 179 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: her as though they had been waiting to be released. 180 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: I think she just said a kid, and she had 181 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: already been rejected, she had already had the abortion, and 182 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: I think the whole thing just blew up. And maybe 183 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, And I kept that to myself for a 184 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: long Huh. I did not expect to hear Joanne agree 185 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: with Kim and acknowledge so openly that she believed Sandy 186 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: had died by suicide. And I got the sense that 187 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: Kim had given her permission to say the hard part 188 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 1: out loud, and that it came as a tremendous relief. 189 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: The room was quiet. Everyone seemed to be reflecting on 190 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: the Sandy that they knew, each of them conjuring their 191 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: own memory of Sandy and trying to square Kim's new 192 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: story with their own. And then Stephen broke the silence. Well, 193 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: I'm going to be the man out. I dispute what 194 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: the guy says. I flat ass disputed it. I don't 195 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: think she put the goddamn gun on the steering wheel. 196 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: And yes, they can replicate it, they don't want to 197 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: replicate it. I can put a fucking man on the 198 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: goddamn moon and they can replicate that I know Sandy. 199 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: Sandy did not shoot herself. I'm going to go to 200 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: my frigging grave saying that, you know, and it's compelling. Now, 201 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: I'll give you that. You know, the guy's trying, and 202 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: I get that he's trying to be empathetic with our situation. 203 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,959 Speaker 1: But you know, sorry, he's selling I ain't buying it. 204 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: No pick again, I'm sorry. I didn't buying it. Why. 205 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: Stephen left the room upset, but about five minutes later 206 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: he came back and rejoined his family. Trust me, folks, 207 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: I'm not trying to you know, it's nothing about it, 208 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: but I take issue with what it is or trying 209 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: to say. And you know, and I understand if you 210 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: know other people don't share my stance. I get it. 211 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: You know, this is something that I you're right there, 212 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: I gotta grap with on my own. Right now, I 213 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: don't see it yet. You know, maybe something might take something, 214 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: a little something else to make me see the light. 215 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: You know, maybe I'm seeing what I want to see. 216 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: Don't know, could be, but right now I do know. 217 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 1: You're not going to convince me that she did it. 218 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: As the family continued to talk, the sun streaming in 219 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: the windows and filling the room with light. It felt 220 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: as though I was seeing them shift and adjust their 221 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: beliefs in real time, torn between two versions of an 222 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: event that had defined their lives. Even Joanne, who had 223 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: sounded so sure at first, vacillated returning back again to 224 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: the police dug and all the sketchy behavior she witnessed 225 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: in the aftermath of Sandy's death. Sometimes she seemed to 226 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: travel this distance between suicide and murder in the same breath. 227 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: Stephen was the most vocal about his views, while his 228 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: brothers Michael and Ronnie quietly contemplated the situation without giving 229 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: much away. They listened, nodded, winced at times, and then 230 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: Ronnie spoke up in his calm and reserved way, Well, 231 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: you know, for forty four years and nine months, we've 232 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: tried like every scenario. Did she did, she not? She did, 233 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: Why she didn't, Who's responsible? We don't know. Then, I 234 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: guess we're never going to know. Even if somebody come 235 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: forward today, yeah I did it. No one's going to jail, 236 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: especially none of them guys. Yeah yeah, bops Ray. So 237 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: in my mind, I think we've come to the end 238 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: of the room when the loser growth. 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That's LifeLock dot com slash iHeart to save 254 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: twenty five percent your first year LifeLock Identity Theft Protection 255 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: starts here. A brand new historical true crime podcast. The 256 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: year is eighteen hundred City Hall, New York. The first 257 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: murder trial in the American judicial system, a man sense 258 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 1: trial for the charge of murder. Even with defense lawyers 259 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: Alexander Hamilton and Erinburr on the case, this is probably 260 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: the most famous trial you've never heard of. When you 261 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: lay suffering a sudden, violent, brutal death, I hope you'll 262 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: think of me, starring Allison Williams. I don't need anything simple, 263 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: mister Hamilton, Thank you, with Tony Goldwyn as Alexander Hamilton. 264 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: Don't be so sad, It doesn't suit you. Written and 265 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: created by me Alison Block. Listen to Erased the Murder 266 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 1: of Elma Sands. She was a sweet, happy, virtuous girl 267 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: until she met that man. Right there on the iHeartRadio app, 268 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts. This Christmas, 269 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: what if gift giving looked different? What if your gifts 270 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 1: could make a life changing, long lasting, joyful impact on 271 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 1: your loved ones and for others. 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Watch Queens of 290 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: Ancient Degit now on Curiosity Stream with monthly, annual, and 291 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: bundled plans. Find the one that works for you at 292 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 1: CuriosityStream dot com. I watched the bills leave that meeting 293 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: with Kim with a demanding task ahead. They could choose 294 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: to believe what Kim now believed, that Sandy died by suicide, 295 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 1: or they could continue with the story they'd believed for decades. 296 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 1: And I could understand why they'd take the latter route. 297 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: Both stories were compelling, both were possible, and the journey 298 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: to replace a long held belief with something new and 299 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: contradictory is not an easy one. I think that we 300 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: face this kind of crossroads many times in life, and 301 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: we know again we're given the choice between the safety 302 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 1: of holding on to what we knew, or the ambiguity 303 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: of releasing what we thought we knew and reaching for 304 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 1: something a little more adequate, recognizing that that process is 305 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 1: not a comfortable one. Robert Neiemeier is a professor of 306 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: psychology at the University of Memphis and an authority on 307 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: bereavement and grief. Well, of course, this is a larger 308 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: question that goes beyond grief and bereavement. We can hold 309 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: on to our own views, sometimes almost in a kind 310 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: of hostile stance of refusing to accept the alternative story. 311 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: And that's the path of defensiveness and sameness and anger 312 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: and resistance. But the other is the path of grieving, 313 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: maybe coming to terms with the reality of tragedy in 314 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: life and the impermanence of love and the ambiguity of 315 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: our position as human beings. Kim let go of what 316 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: she'd believed, and it was really painful. She told me 317 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: that she felt as though she was grieving Sandy's death 318 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: all over again. For the family, I understood the cost 319 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: of changing their minds to accept that Sandy had died 320 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: by suicide required them to redefine their understanding of her 321 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: as a person and, by extension, their relationship to her. 322 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: It often, especially in the case of traumatic loss, shakes 323 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: up our assumptive world, as we call it. That whole 324 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: world of assumptions about how life is or should be, 325 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: our sense of justice, our sense of control, our sense 326 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: of the reality we thought we were living, or the 327 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 1: reality of a loved one we thought we knew, can 328 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: be deeply unsettling, as we have to essentially revise our 329 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 1: life narrative, the story of who we are and whose 330 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: we are, in the context of often a significant and 331 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: soul shattering loss. The dramatic thing for them, of course, 332 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: is that they have experienced the shattering of their narrative 333 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: their story not once, but twice, forty four years apart. 334 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: Robert explained to me that grieving a suicide often brings 335 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 1: up complicated feelings for families, such as guilt and anger, 336 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: the failure to protect or save that person, particularly if 337 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: we are a parent, particularly if we are an older sibling, 338 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: where we feel some duty of care toward this vulnerable person, 339 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: and somehow we miss the signals. We didn't have the 340 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: the deep understanding of what was happening for them at 341 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: the time that might have led us to make a difference. 342 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: All of that has denied us, and so we're left 343 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: with a struggle to realign the relationship with them and 344 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: to figure out how they fit into our lives. Now. 345 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: What I hope it rings though, is compassion of her 346 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: as the young woman she was attempting to move into 347 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: a life that had its own audacious and probably chaotic 348 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 1: and likely complicated dimensions. Ironically, they have ended up having 349 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: to sort out those complications for her in a proxy 350 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 1: way as they attempt to make sense of her life, 351 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 1: maybe at a time that she herself could not making 352 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: sense of Sandy and the complications she was struggling with. 353 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: Is what I've tried to do with this podcast and 354 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: the complications in Sandy's life, they had something in common. 355 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: They all revolved around law enforcement, and so in a 356 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: way did her death, which I think is telling. I 357 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: found myself returning to a single page in Sandy's full 358 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 1: police file where Detective Selski cataloged the evidence in Sandy's 359 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:07,239 Speaker 1: car and specifically the items sitting on her dashboard. The 360 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: items on her dash they all had to do with cops. 361 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: There was the duty rig for carrying police equipment, a 362 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: lone business card from a PG County cop, clippings about 363 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: police officers, presumably from a local newspaper, and a card 364 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,479 Speaker 1: showing the shifts schedule. I thought it was strange that 365 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: Sandy would store so many items, including a belt, on 366 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: her small dashboard. Wouldn't they fall down when she drove? 367 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: As I read and reread this list, picturing the scene, 368 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: I suddenly imagined Sandy placing the items there ceremoniously surrounding 369 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: herself with police paraphernalia to make a statement. I had 370 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 1: long been suspicious of the location of Sandy's death because 371 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: of who hung out there, but I could now see 372 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: how the poleyard might have been a symbolic choice by Sandy. Doug, 373 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: the state trooper, the instructors and the Explorer program, and 374 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: the cops who called Shazhlski. I think a good many 375 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: of them hurt Sandy. They took advantage of her youthful passion, 376 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:17,199 Speaker 1: her blind ambition, and her desire for acceptance. As she 377 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: wrote in her letter to Doug, I never want another 378 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: man to ever want me. I just want to leave 379 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 1: and forget the pain. Sandy was looking for love and 380 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: she found cruelty. The police, they didn't have to murder 381 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,400 Speaker 1: Sandy to be complicit in her death, and I think 382 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: they deserve some of the blame for the loss of 383 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: a teenage girl. I think there are people who know 384 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: exactly what happened to Sandy. They just don't want to 385 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: talk to me. And back then they didn't want to 386 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: talk to the Bills either. To me. This is the 387 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: tragic heart of the story. For all the questions the 388 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: Bells had, there were people with answer. If any of 389 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,400 Speaker 1: the police officers who knew Sandy had been brave enough 390 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: to talk to the Balls, if Prince George's County Police 391 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: had launched a misconduct probe in the wake of Sandy's 392 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 1: death and been transparent with her family, And if anyone 393 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: had listened to the balls, really listened to what they 394 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 1: had to say, then maybe forty five years of doubt 395 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: and uncertainty might have been avoided. Maybe Sandy she could 396 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: have been put to rest. A brand new historical true 397 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: crime podcast. The year is eighteen hundred, City Hall, New York. 398 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 1: The first murder trial in the American judicial system as 399 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: trial for the charge of murder. Even with defense lawyers 400 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: Alexander Hamilton and Erinburr on the case, this is probably 401 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: the most famous trial you've never heard of. When you 402 00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: lay suffering a sudden, violent, brutal death, I hope you'll 403 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: think of me. Starring Alison Williams. I don't need anything simplified, 404 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: mister Hamilton, Thank you, with Tony Goldwyn as Alexander Hamilton. 405 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: Don't be so sad, It doesn't suit you. Written and 406 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 1: created by me Alison Black. Listen to Erased the murder 407 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: of Elma San's She was a sweet, happy, virtuous girl 408 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: until she met that man. Right there on the iHeartRadio app, 409 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts. When 410 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: Tracy were Keel Burns was two years old, her baby 411 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: brother died. I was told that Matthew died in an accident, 412 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: and no one really talked about it. Her parents told 413 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: police she had killed him. Medical records said that I 414 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: killed my baby brother. I'm Nancy Glass. Join me for 415 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: Burden of Guilt, the new podcast that tells the true 416 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: an incredible story of a toddler who was framed for 417 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: murder and how she grew into an adult determined to 418 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: get justice and protect her family. While we had prosecuted 419 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: some cold cases, this was the coldest. This was frigid. 420 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: But how does a two year old get blamed for murder? 421 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: She said? We wanted a new life. You just don't 422 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 1: know what it's like when you'll do anything for somebody. 423 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: Listen to Burden of Guilt on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 424 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I noticed Jacob is 425 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: not in his crib, so I look in and says 426 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: she's not there. So I'm like, Okay, they're not there. 427 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: Unrestorable is a new true crime podcast that investigates the 428 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: case of Catherine Hoggel, a mother accused of murder. I'm thinking, 429 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: you know, like, what's going on, Like this is insane, 430 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: like where are my kids? Despite signs that Catherine Hoggle 431 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: took her tiny children one by one into the night, 432 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,719 Speaker 1: never to come home again, she has yet to stand 433 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: trial because soon after her children went missing, she was 434 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: declared incompetent to stand trial. We have a blueprint to 435 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: get away with murder in the state of Maryland at 436 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: this point. In Maryland, if a defendant is found incompetent 437 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: and can't be restored to competency, their felony charges are 438 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: dismissed after five years. So, as the clock counts down, 439 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: Catherine's charges on the verge of being dismissed. What does 440 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: justice look like in this case? There's something's wrong her, 441 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 1: you know, whenever one was allowed to kill my two kids. 442 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: Listen to Unrestorable on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 443 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts, and to hear the show completely. 444 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: Add free subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, 445 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: available exclusively on Apple Podcasts Plus. You'll get add free 446 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: access to dozens of hit true crime shows like Paper Ghosts, Betrayal, 447 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: and The Idaho Massacre. There's a place beyond this place, 448 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: a middle ground between the light and the darkness, the natire, 449 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: and the zenith. For some, it's a bridge between the 450 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: living and the dead. Yet for others, it's something else. Entirely, 451 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: it's the place where our nightmares dwell. Each one of 452 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 1: us has touched the other side and felt the presence 453 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: of something beyond this world. Welcome to Hip Hop Horror Stories. 454 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Belly, and each week We're going to 455 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 1: take you to the limits of your imagination as we 456 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: explore the reality of paranormal experiences. I believe in this 457 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: shit for real, and the stories you're about to hear 458 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: might make you believe too. Everywhere I look, I saw something, 459 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: and I looked closer and noticed there was a good 460 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: figure And whatever it is, it's like cave. It's like 461 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: it became reality. Listen to Hip Hop Horror Stories on 462 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 463 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: Head into Safeway for great deals throughout the store this week. 464 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: At Safeway, get value packs of USDA Choice boneless beef 465 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: try Tip roast, or sixteen to twenty count bags of 466 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: Waterfront Bistro Extra Jumbo raw shrimp for three ninety seven 467 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: per pound with digital coupon, Limit two packages, plus get 468 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: two pound packages of large strawberries for the member price 469 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: of four ninety nine each. Also this week at Safeway, 470 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: get Signature Farms ninety percent lean ground beef or sixteen 471 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: ounce packages of Geneo ground turkey varieties. Buy one, get 472 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: one free. Visit safeway dot com or head instore for 473 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: more deals. In the weeks and months after we all 474 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: gathered to Maine, I reached out to the Beills periodically 475 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: to check in on how they were doing. I was 476 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: curious how they had processed the new information, but I 477 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 1: was also hyper where that their capacity for an interest 478 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: in discussing Sandy's case with me was coming to a close. 479 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: My investigation had found answers, but not the answers that 480 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: they had necessarily wanted, since they were somewhat let down, 481 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: Although they never missed an opportunity to express gratitude for 482 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: my work. Here's what Stephen had to say when I 483 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: called them one afternoon. I'm just going on with life, really, 484 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: I mean kind of going bad as globe. I mean 485 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: it was situation normal, that's not it. I don't know 486 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 1: what else to say. I know myself, I've always felt 487 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: all along that we're never going to really get to 488 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: the bottom of it. And it was nice, as you know, 489 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: to try to get to where we got now, which 490 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: is good, but it was just it's for me. I'm 491 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: always going to have questions and it's never going to 492 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: be really quite resolved the way to my satisfaction. Kim's 493 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 1: epiphany from meeting with Bernie, it hadn't really changed anything 494 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: for him. I had those gut feelings when you know, 495 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: when you just kind of know something, you know what 496 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm looking at through a through jaded eyes. 497 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 1: I am so jaded, you know, I need to look 498 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,240 Speaker 1: at it through a different lens. Does that make any sense? 499 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,280 Speaker 1: When I reached Michael, the oldest of the Bier brothers, 500 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: he agreed with Stephen and told me he still has 501 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: significant questions about the gun. So you still you still 502 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: believe that probably someone else was involved. Sure, I certainly do. 503 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: The police, uh get pretty good, you know, they can 504 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 1: they can dig sh it up, and they can they 505 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 1: can bury stuff. So I'm sure there's a lot of 506 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 1: stuff that's buried and no one's going to know about it. Ronnie, 507 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: the youngest of the Bills, he just wanted to put 508 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,760 Speaker 1: the whole thing behind him. He's getting married soon, starting 509 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: a new chapter of his life. He doesn't want to 510 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 1: go there anymore. Like you said in the meeting, he 511 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: considers at the end of the road. I came to 512 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 1: understand through my conversations with the brothers that it was 513 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: very possible the family would be living with these conflicting 514 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: stories of Sandy's death and therefore her life forever, and 515 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 1: maybe that was all right. Well, we've seen over and 516 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:39,279 Speaker 1: over now really twenty five years of search, the majority 517 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: of people are resilient to almost anything. George Bonano is 518 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: a psychologist at Columbia University. His research focuses on how 519 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 1: human beings cope with bereavement, loss, and other potentially traumatic events. 520 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: You know, everybody's moved on and lived their lives, you know, 521 00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: and it's now a person four decades in the past 522 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: who they loved or who they had complex relationships with, 523 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: and now they have a kind of a very complicated 524 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: story about that person. But you know, there's probably enough 525 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: distance that they can probably say, Okay, well, you know, 526 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 1: we'll maybe hold both of these but you know, I 527 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: don't think it would be as crucial or as critical, 528 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 1: and they're wet to their well being to have a 529 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: clear picture anymore. In a sense, the need to have 530 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: them reconciled is maybe long past. George's research has found 531 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 1: that most people possess a natural resilience to trauma and loss. 532 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: The person is able to you know, concentrate, laugh, do 533 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: what they need to do, take care of people they love, 534 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: and be cared for by people they love, and they 535 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: love them, you know, be close, have intimate interactions, and 536 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: they you know, they're able to experience joy, and they're 537 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,840 Speaker 1: able to experience pain, and they're able to be to 538 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: think about other things, and they simply continue on with 539 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:04,840 Speaker 1: their life. They don't forget the person. They just continue 540 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: living the life in the present. And if you think 541 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: about it, human beings have been around for a long 542 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: time and we've thrived all over the planet, and we've 543 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,800 Speaker 1: always been able to keep moving on and keep going. 544 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 1: That's just human nature. Kim has moved houses since she 545 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: visited the Beals in Maine, resettling in a country home 546 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 1: halfway between Houston and Austin. Being in the country has helped, 547 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: she said. The blue bonnets and wildflowers are out. The 548 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 1: trees outside her house are over three hundred years old. 549 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: She keeps a photo of Sandy on her desk, but 550 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: she's put her files about the case out of sight 551 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: in a closet, still close enough to access if she 552 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,320 Speaker 1: needs them, but not lining the walls of her bedroom 553 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,399 Speaker 1: like they used to Sandy's case. It's been a source 554 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,280 Speaker 1: of consistency in her life for decades, something to focus 555 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 1: her boundless energy on, give her purpose, and now she 556 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: considers it over. She's let go for the most part. 557 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: She has answers, though she says she still needs to 558 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: find closure. She wants to go back to the pole 559 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:25,800 Speaker 1: yard and have a ceremony there to say goodbye before 560 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: the family meeting. One of Kim's biggest concerns was disappointing Joanne. 561 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 1: She feared that spending all those years investigating the case 562 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: had prolonged Joanne's pain and stood in the way of healing. 563 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,320 Speaker 1: It's been a long time, hasn't it. Yeah, fighting us, 564 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,879 Speaker 1: It's a long time fighting it. Yeah. So I'm most 565 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: concerned mostly about you. I've had a few weeks to 566 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: process it, and I'm still struggling with it. So just grieving, 567 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: you know, I know what you mean. I was just 568 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: I think it was Melissa, that this might be the 569 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: last sit in that I might sit in. It depends 570 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,240 Speaker 1: on how I feel at the time, you know, because 571 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 1: it drums everything back up. It's hard and it's hot, 572 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 1: and that's the way it is. But the journey it 573 00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: had bonded the two women. I got the sense that 574 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: Joanne was profoundly touched by the years that Kim had 575 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: spent in service to Sandy. She was trying to hold 576 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:36,760 Speaker 1: people accountable, and she had kept Sandy's memory alive. We've 577 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 1: come a long way with this. You have Dug and 578 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: Doug and Doug and Dog. There's been many things that 579 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:49,399 Speaker 1: I have thought of and thought of and thought and 580 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: just like we all have questions, but oh following never 581 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 1: get all the answers. We've had a lot, We've learned 582 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 1: a lot. I understand why the bills still have questions, 583 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: because I do too. There's still so much unknown about 584 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 1: the network of police officers whose phone numbers Sandy wrote 585 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: down in her address books, police officers who took her 586 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: on ride alongs and drove her home at night after 587 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: hanging out at the FOP lodge. But I'm pretty sure 588 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 1: I know how she felt when she died, because she 589 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: wrote about it. I've reread her note to Doug many times, 590 00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:34,400 Speaker 1: and what's clear is how alone, used and powerless she felt. 591 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 1: It's a stark reversal from where she was when she 592 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:42,359 Speaker 1: began policing, described by her friends and family as strong, ambitious, 593 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:47,360 Speaker 1: and secure. The main criticism I've heard about my podcast 594 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: is that it's anti cop, that if a teen girl 595 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: was victimized in an Explorer program that was in the 596 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies and doesn't reflect on what's happening now. But 597 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,799 Speaker 1: I want to tell you about another Sandy. Sandra Birchmore 598 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:06,799 Speaker 1: died by suicide during the pandemic while pregnant, allegedly with 599 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: the child of a married older cop who was an 600 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: instructor in the Explorer program she had attended. A misconduct 601 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: probe launched in the wake of her death has resulted 602 00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 1: in the resignation of one officer, with two others placed 603 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: on paid leave. I think there are many many more 604 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:31,200 Speaker 1: Sandy's out there, girls and women who have been sexualized, mistreated, 605 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 1: and eaten up by a police culture where masculinity reigns. 606 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:47,319 Speaker 1: Sandy wasn't an anomaly, Joanne. She still has questions. She 607 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: still hopes that Sandy Sheridan will come forward. She still 608 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: believes that Doug was in the pole yard the night 609 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: Sandy died. She even had a dream about him recently 610 00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,239 Speaker 1: where she confronted him outside a courthouse and gave him 611 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 1: a piece of her mind. But ultimately she's come to 612 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: accept the possibility that Sandy died by suicide. She thinks 613 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 1: that Sandy was consumed by hurt and felt as though 614 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 1: she had no one to turn to, and she blames 615 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:18,240 Speaker 1: the police for putting her daughter in this position. Thinking 616 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,160 Speaker 1: back to when Sandy died, the worst part was the 617 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:25,240 Speaker 1: not knowing, she said, having only the fragments of Sandy's 618 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 1: story and not being able to put them together in 619 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 1: a way that made any sense. Today, she's learned how 620 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 1: to live with the not knowing, the lingering ambiguity, the 621 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: unanswered questions. She's found a way to put all that 622 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: to the side, diffuse it of its power. Maybe she 623 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 1: wasn't supposed to know everything, she said, It's just how 624 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 1: it is, and she's at peace. So anyway, it was 625 00:42:52,960 --> 00:43:01,799 Speaker 1: a hard time, and uh, I don't know, We've been 626 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,799 Speaker 1: through enough a lot in this family. I say the 627 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 1: good lawd was good to me to give me a 628 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,440 Speaker 1: life to live this law. I weighed two pounds and 629 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,799 Speaker 1: three ounces at birth. They told my mother and father 630 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:19,279 Speaker 1: I wouldn't love twenty four hours and here I am 631 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:24,719 Speaker 1: Edie too. Joanne hopes she'll see Sandy in heaven, but 632 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,800 Speaker 1: for now, she's put the whole thing in a good place. 633 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:33,840 Speaker 1: She needed to. She's a fighter, always has been, but 634 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,799 Speaker 1: it was time for her to stop. Well, Honey, I've 635 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:43,240 Speaker 1: got to let you go. Okay? What Happened to Sandy 636 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:46,839 Speaker 1: Beale is hosted by Me Melissa Jolson. It's written and 637 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,720 Speaker 1: produced by me and Katrina Norvell. The podcast is edited 638 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: by Abu Safar. Sound designed by Aaron Kaufman. Jason English 639 00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:00,760 Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Research and production assistance by Marissa Brown. 640 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:08,000 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Duncan Radell, Bethan Macaluso, Nikki etr and 641 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:13,320 Speaker 1: Pete Monica. To find out more about my investigation, follow 642 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:18,880 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Quasimado. That's qu as I am Ado, 643 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 1: a brand new historical true crime podcast. When you lay 644 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:29,439 Speaker 1: suffering a sudden brutal death starring Alison william I hope 645 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: you'll think of me. Erased the murder of Elma Sans. 646 00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:37,520 Speaker 1: She was a sweet happy, virtuous girl until she met 647 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,040 Speaker 1: that man right there. Written and created by me Alison Fly. 648 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,320 Speaker 1: Is it possible? So we're standing by for your answer. 649 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:48,240 Speaker 1: Erased the murder of Elma Sans on the iHeartRadio app, 650 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts. When Terrace, 651 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: who were killed Burns was two years old, her baby 652 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,920 Speaker 1: brother died. I was told that Matthew died in an accident. 653 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,759 Speaker 1: Her parents told police she had killed him. I'm Nancy Glass. 654 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 1: Join me for Burden of Guilt, the new podcast that 655 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,839 Speaker 1: tells the truth an incredible story of a toddler who 656 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:16,759 Speaker 1: was framed for murder. Listen to Burden of Guilt on 657 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 658 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:29,319 Speaker 1: The system's broken. I said, something's wrong with her, you know, 659 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:31,840 Speaker 1: whenever a one is allowed to kill my two kids. 660 00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,400 Speaker 1: Unrestorable is a new true crime podcast that investigates the 661 00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:41,320 Speaker 1: case of Catherine Hoggle, a mother accused of murder. Despite 662 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,920 Speaker 1: signs that Catherine Hoggle took her tiny children one by 663 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,160 Speaker 1: one into the night, never to come home again, she 664 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 1: has yet to stand trial. Listen to Unrestorable on the 665 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:57,440 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, 666 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 1: and to hear the show completely ad free, subscribe to 667 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,160 Speaker 1: the iHeart True Crime Plus channel, available exclusively on Apple 668 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 1: Podcasts Plus. You'll get ad free access to dozens of 669 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,319 Speaker 1: hit true crime shows like Paper Ghosts, Betrayal, and The 670 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:17,319 Speaker 1: Idaho Massacre. Hey, guys, Britton Laurie here from Life on 671 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,640 Speaker 1: Cut podcast. 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