WEBVTT - Graham Pechenik on Psychedelic Patents & Law 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:07.720 Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman and this is psychoactive, a production 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.600 of I heart radio and protozoa pictures. psychoactive is the 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:15.040 show where we talk about all things drugs, but any 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.760 views expressed here do not represent those of I heart media, 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:23.599 protozoa pictures or their executives and employees. Indeed, as an 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:26.840 inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not even 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:31.120 represent my own, and nothing contained in this show should 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:34.040 be used as medical advice or encouragement to use any 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:47.360 type of drugs. Hello, psychoactive listeners. So today's subject is 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:53.159 the issue of psychedelics and the law, specifically psychedelics and 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:56.760 Intellectual Property Law, the issue of patents. His name is 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:00.200 Graham Patch Nick. He's an attorney in San Francisco. We 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.280 founded a law firm about six years ago called Kalix Law, 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.520 C A L Y X, but he's been working in 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.119 the area of patent law now for a couple of 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:13.640 decades and a whole range of industries, the marijuana industry. 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:18.800 Uh So, Graham, thanks so much for joining me on psychoactive. 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:21.679 Thank you so much, Ethan, for the honor of being here. 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:23.959 It's it's really enjoyed to be able to participate in 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:27.000 your podcast, which I've enjoyed for so long. Grandma. Want 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:29.280 to start off by sort of placing the issue of 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:32.640 psychedelic patents law at the intersection of two things. One 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.480 the broader issue of patent law, which will get into 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:38.959 broadly because obviously in many respects the issues that are 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:42.880 emerging in psychedelics patent law are just emblematic of the 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:46.199 broader issues and challenges and problems in broader patent law. 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:49.000 But it's also at the intersection of Patent Law and 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:55.520 of PSYCHEDELIC law, and there's now a psychedelic law association. 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:58.240 I think they just recently had one of their first 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:02.440 meetings in September. And so, apart from patent law, what 0:02:02.520 --> 0:02:05.680 are the other issues in psychedelics law? I mean, I 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:08.640 go back to thinking about those initial religious freedom cases 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:11.959 involving the churches that we're using Ayahuasca, the UDV and 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:14.720 the Siento dime. But apart from that religious peace and 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:17.880 the area you're working on especially now, what else lies 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.800 in that field of psychedelics law? Well, that's a good question, 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:24.600 and so I say there is the Psychedelic Bar Association, 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:28.200 which did just have its first psychedelic laws summit, which 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:32.520 had over three dozen lawyers who have an interest or 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:34.880 some bit of a practice in psychedelics. And there is 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:39.240 also actually, where I am a California psychedelics Bar Association 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:43.440 founded by two psychedelics General Council of two companies. In 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:45.560 terms of the amount of work actually that people can 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:48.359 do in terms of a focus, I think you're right 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:52.320 to call out the religious freedom restoration act and work 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:55.960 around there, because for many years that, I think, was 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:59.600 the predominant area. Or if somebody was interested in psychedelics, 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:03.880 law could work in and I think up until really 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.000 I've had the great fortune of having this niche and 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:09.200 psychedelics patents there haven't been all that many and certainly 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:12.639 not ones where one could make an entire practice or 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:15.600 the entire focus of a career on psychedelics. And actually 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:20.040 there's an article that just came out recently by Matt Zorne, 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:24.079 who I worked together with on a challenge against the 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:26.360 D a. The challenge against the D A was one 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:28.880 way we could get involved as lawyers who are interested 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:32.079 in psychedelics. So the DA had proposed to schedule five 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.839 psychedelic trip to means and because Matt is a really 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:38.440 good d a lawyer and I had an interest in psychedelics. 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:41.440 We joined horses, along with some others, to challenge that. 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.680 I actually was reading that article that you mentioned, Graham, 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:48.120 by Matt just last night and prepping for our discussion 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:51.560 where he talks about the case, about the D E A. 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:54.200 I mean we've so long seen the D e a 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:56.560 as the bad guys, you know, trying to throw things 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:59.960 into schedule one without any proper, you know, do process 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:03.040 as her hearings. But this more recent case where the 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:06.160 D A targeted these five trip to mean is a 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.600 certain class of psychedelics and say they want to write 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:12.120 the schedule one. I remember Hamilton's Morris, you know, who's 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:14.720 one of my guests on psychoactives, sounding the alarm he 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:17.039 emailed made lots of other people, got a lot of 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:20.479 people mobilized and then I think Matt played a key role, 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.960 with assistance from you, in challenging this, hopefuly beating back 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:26.760 the d e a uh and forcing them not to 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:29.200 throw these things into schedule one. So wonder if you 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.120 could just tell our listeners to things. One, what was 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:35.560 special about that fight and secondly, do you think it's 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:38.280 going to have broader implications in terms of how the 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:41.880 D e a views other psychedelic substances in the future. Sure. 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.760 And so your first question, what do I think perhaps 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.600 was special about that? I think what was special really 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:54.120 was the just artillery, so to Speaker, the you know, 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.400 the amount of work that Matt in particular brought to 0:04:57.480 --> 0:05:02.680 bear to this challenge. And so Hamilton Morris, as you mentioned, 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:07.000 was involved. There was another company, Pantasy of plant sciences, 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.840 and their CEO was very interested in this and it's 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:13.200 spent a lot of effort even before this had filed 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:17.560 against the DA. And then we had declarations from uh 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:22.960 for many experts on the really everything from the fact 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:27.480 that these particular compounds, we're not ones that had any 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:32.960 evidence of abuse and didn't pose any threat of safety 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:37.280 issues or any risks, and the D A's evidence that 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:41.600 dad was over a decade old, from a report from 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:47.760 around Um long before this the current wave of psychedelic 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:50.680 research and the PSYCHEDELIC grandis songs. But Graham, why, why 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:53.600 were they even bothering to try to throw these five substances, 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:55.240 and I mean was there was there any evidence that 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:57.919 they were being misused in the broader public. Yeah, that's 0:05:57.960 --> 0:05:59.680 a really good question and it's not really something that 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:01.480 we were able to very easily figure out. I mean, 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:03.320 the reason they had this ten year old report was 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:06.239 because back in the ats there was something called Operation 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:10.000 Red trip where the d a went after the vendors 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:12.760 of research chemicals of different trip to means, and it 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:16.440 looked like although they had went back then to go 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:19.480 after some of the ones that had broader use, these 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:21.240 sort of were left out because I didn't really have 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:24.599 that many reports of use and the only deaths that 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:28.760 were on record were poly drug abuse and involving other things. 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:30.719 But that, I think, still kind of remains a mystery. 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:34.760 What actually uh initiated this at the beginning of the year. 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:37.320 So in terms of you were able to beat them back. 0:06:37.440 --> 0:06:40.039 Do you think it's going to impact how the D 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:43.240 e a operates in the future on other novel compounds, 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:45.840 especially psychonoloic compounds? Yeah, I mean I think that's really 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:49.160 a big open question and so this sort of first 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:51.680 way we thought about trying to see if there would 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:54.760 be any evidence of an answer was with the second 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:58.279 challenge there was to the d a. So just after 0:06:58.800 --> 0:07:02.120 the d a proposed schedule these five psychedelic trip to means. 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:07.280 The D A also proposed to schedule too psychedelic finela means, 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:11.360 D O I and D c. both, similarly to the 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:14.320 five trip to means, had had very little evidence of abuse, 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:19.200 almost none. D O I, however, is something that's in hundreds, 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:22.640 if not thousands, of publications as a standard in research 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:27.200 because it's such a good serotonin receptor agonists and because 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:29.280 it is unscheduled, it's it's very easy to work with, 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:31.600 and so we were looking out to see if the 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:35.119 D A's proposal there would would go forward, and actually 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:38.760 they withdrew that one as well. So it looks like 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:42.640 maybe with psychedelics there might be some leniency, but I 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:47.000 think with both they basically didn't say they're they're done entirely, 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:48.840 but just that they're going back to the drawing board. 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:51.200 So just briefly explained to the audience the difference between 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:53.920 the two categories of substance. Yeah, so the difference between 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:58.480 the two categories is based on the chemical structure, the 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:01.760 chemical backbone, or scoff hold is some as some call it, 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:05.440 and TRIPP to means have a chemical backbone that's the 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:08.840 same as Serotonin. So serotonin actually is for hydroxy, tripp 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:10.840 to mean. And so you know, we think of a 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.120 lot of psychedelics we know with perhaps tripped to mean 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.000 in the name. So die methyl trip to mean or 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:19.120 five methoxy trip to mean Um, and so these are 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:23.280 all tripp to means. LSD, for instance, is generally classed, 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:25.600 or can be as a trip to mean. It has 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.760 a more complex structure. Um. Even Ibagaine has a trip 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.240 to mean or Indole core as part of it Bein 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:35.280 ethyl means. Are Compounds that are like mescaline or or 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.800 M D M A, or have a scaffold that's like 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:44.760 an amphetamine Um, and amphenamine actually stands for an Alpha methylamine. 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:47.160 So these all have this finethylamine core which is more 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:51.720 like the dopamine neurotransmitter. So now let's just put this 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:54.040 into a kind of a little bit of historical context 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.560 with a with a couple of the most famous names 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:01.760 and psychedelics creation. Right. The first one is Albert Hoffman, 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:05.960 who was working at Sandaz and sort of discovered or devised, 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.559 however you want to put an LSD during World War 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:14.320 Two years. So Hoffman and Sandas did patent those things 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:18.079 back then. Right, those who were among the few patents 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:22.079 in this area for many decades. Is that right? That's right. Yes, 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:29.000 so after Albert Hoffman received samples of Psilocybin Mushrooms, actually 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:32.960 from Gordon Watson, from the same area where Gordon Watson 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:37.760 went and had his the first time, Um, Albert Hoffman 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:42.360 and sandals filed patent applications on the the isolation of 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:46.840 PSILOCYBIN and also its use as a tranquilizer action. But 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:50.319 were there many, many more psychedelic patents back then, or 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.400 were these really sort of standing alone? For some decades 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:57.240 these were standing alone, and many people, of course, will know, 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:00.559 and with Pikel and Tiko, that there were, how underds 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:05.280 just in those books that were developed by by Sasha. Well, 0:10:05.320 --> 0:10:07.120 I mean you're jumping to my next question here, which is, 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:09.920 did Sasha Shilgan ever seek or get a patent for 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:12.240 any of his creations, or do you know, did he 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:15.480 deliberately choose not to, because those two books, pe call 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.160 and tea call, which are essentially recipe books for hundreds 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:20.880 of these substances, put it out into the public domain 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:23.760 and I guess that presumably means they can't be patented 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:25.679 in the future, at least with the ways that he 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.800 used to synthesize them. But what do you know about 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:32.520 Sasha's history visa the patent? was He ever ever seeking 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:35.959 in that area or did he deliberately abstain from seeking that? 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:39.800 That's a good question actually. Interestingly, part of the reason, 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:42.520 I think Sasha was even able to do the amount 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:47.360 of chemistry that he did relating to psychedelics was due 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:49.840 to the fact that he had some very successful patents 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:52.720 that he filed when he was working at down and 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:55.120 those patents earned so much money for the company that 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.040 they gave him a little bit more free reigin with 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:59.600 his laboratory and allowed him to pursue some other interests. 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:03.040 In terms of his interest, though, filing patent applications on 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:05.880 his own. I think it's a little bit unsettled, but 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:09.080 there's a great article by by Matt Baggett about this 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:13.680 and from what we know, he did actually file a 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:16.719 patent application on one trip to mean, I think it's 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.000 off a methyl trip to mean, because he saw a 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.040 commercial market for it actually as a stimulant, I think, 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:25.920 for older people. So I don't know that he was 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:32.160 constitutionally or philosophically against patent applications or filing patents to 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.480 protect work. I think perhaps he just didn't see that 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:40.520 there was a commercial market for a PSYCHEDELIC. Well, what 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:42.439 about something like two C B? I mean that's, you know, 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:46.280 while bigard is one of his major, you know, concoctions. Um. 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:48.760 But I presume there is no patent and presumably can 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:50.840 be no patent on two C B, since it's been 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:53.200 in the public record now correct. So I mean anything 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:56.800 published in Pikel and Tekel, anything at all. It's the 0:11:56.920 --> 0:12:00.800 chemical structure itself disclosed to the public. That's something that 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:06.959 can't be patented itself, the structure at least. So perhaps 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:09.319 we'll get into but but of course, and not to 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.520 jump ahead, but you know there are patent applications filed 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:15.800 on Psychedelics, even known psychedelics. So the fact that just 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:20.920 the chemical compound can't receive protection for it alone doesn't 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:23.560 mean that it can't make part of a claim on 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:26.880 something else that involves it. So a different method of 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:30.360 synthesizing it might be able to get patent protection. Sure, 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.160 a method of synthesizing it, maybe even a different form 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:36.040 of it. So maybe now to jump ahead. But so 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:39.760 there are some applications that are perhaps the most well 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.840 known in the space that covers psilocybin, some of the 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:44.760 first to be published, some of the ones that have 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:48.840 probably received the most conversation around them in controversy, and 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:53.000 they cover psilocybin in a particular crystalline form. So it's 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:56.280 not psilocybin, just a chemical structure, but it's the way 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:59.480 it is when it's part of a for instance, you know, 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.560 a drug dark when it's mixed with an excipient at 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:04.440 a certain purity and in a particular crystal instructure, as 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:06.600 somebody would receive it if they got it as a 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:09.439 prescription medication. So, Graham, why don't we just go directly 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:11.720 there then? So, I mean the case that most people 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:14.400 have heard of who follow this even tangentially is the 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.840 case involving compass right, and compass is, you know, one 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:20.559 of the biggest and most prominent the cycle of companies, 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:25.240 was founded by the Goldsmith's, George Goldsmith, and his wife, 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:27.840 and he's taken, you know, a fair bit of Flak 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.400 Um Really, I guess, for two things. One is in 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:35.640 seeking successfully getting a patent for a particular formulation of 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:40.920 Psilocybin and then secondly, for you know, being highly ambitious 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.360 aggressive in trying to get patents for all sorts of 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:49.560 things associated with the administration Um of Psilocybin to treat 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.840 h chronic depression and things like that. So maybe just 0:13:53.000 --> 0:14:01.000 explain to our listeners more about that controversy and it's significant. Yeah, 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:05.280 and so the controversy on the patents, I think, is 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:10.120 difficult to view outside of all the ways that it 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:14.400 is impacted by the broader controversies around compass and compasses 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:19.760 investors like Peter Thio and their long history. So I 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:23.120 do think to some degree the controversies on the patents 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:27.200 are inflected with these broader controversies around how they moved 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:31.040 from being a nonprofit to a for profit, how they 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:36.080 obtained information under the guise of what people say saying 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:38.280 they were at first a nonprofit and speaking with Mak 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.800 any academics who gave them information on on friendly terms 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:45.600 and then perhaps were tried to be held to nondisclosure agreements, 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:51.680 and how the company itself at one point allegedly try 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.800 to make it more difficult for its competitors to get 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:59.000 access to synthetic Solcibin to do research and a number 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:01.840 of other things. I think that in pact the patent controversies, 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:08.760 the patent controversies themselves, there's really two types of patents 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:13.200 that they've pursued. One have been primarily on this psilocybin 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:17.080 crystal inform, this polymore for polymore of a as it's 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:20.720 described in their applications, and the other has been an 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:24.560 application they've filed that published as a pct application that 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:30.240 did contain all these aspects of the type of psychological 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:34.040 support a patient would receive and even qualities of the room, 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:38.400 the soft furniture, the high definition sound system, um. But 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:44.400 it did cover these interactions with a therapist, like hand 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:47.560 holding or the therapists putting their hand on the shoulder 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:51.120 of the patient and things. That seems clearly to be 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:56.760 part of what would expect perhaps in psilocybin therapy and 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:59.560 part of what one would expect perhaps not to be 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.080 things like be protected by a patent. In any event, 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:03.840 I mean it sounds like total huts, but I mean 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:06.440 the hand holding, our soft furniture or their sound stuff. 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:09.320 I mean that's so inherent to the experience that why 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:11.560 would they even think to include that stuff in the 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:14.400 first place? Is it just a broader notion that we're 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:16.320 getting a patent. You sort of throw everything against the 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:19.360 wall and see what sticks or or isn't there an 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:22.480 element of embarrassment about going that far? Yeah, yeah, I 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.840 mean I am actually surprised of anything and I don't 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:28.560 know what was encompasses minds when they filed this. So 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:32.480 I can only sort of assume, based on my presumption 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:36.360 of how most Patent Attorneys Act, I would be surprised 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:40.280 that they didn't spend the effort to call through their 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.640 patent a little bit or that that claims to see 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:46.640 what might raise these controversies. But it is fairly standard 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:51.120 practice when filing a PCT application to include often several 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:55.560 hundred claims and there's no additional charges for those claims. 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:58.920 Like there is a national examination and there's there's no 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:03.320 real downside to shooting them and so oftentimes everything that's 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:06.880 described in an application to some degree will make its 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:09.199 way into a claim and there may not be in 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:13.280 the end any real desire to pursue those things. Perhaps 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:16.520 the company wants to get an opinion. So actually, as 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:20.040 part of the PCT process, the applicant will get a 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:23.600 preliminary opinion from a PCT examiner. You're using an acronym. 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:28.639 There was it pct. So pct is a acronym that 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.800 stands for the Patent Cooperation Treaty. So it's a treaty 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:35.040 that has now a hundred and fifties seven, I think, members. 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:40.040 It's basically a treaty that allows anybody to file a 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.800 single application, that's the PCT application, and then have up 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:47.440 to thirty months from the earliest filing date to decide 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:49.320 whether to enter any of those a hundred and fifty 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:53.120 seven member states individually. And so the benefit of doing 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:57.080 that is if you want to file and multiple applications, 0:17:57.680 --> 0:17:59.720 you know that's going to take a lot of expense 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:03.320 to to translate your documents, you'll have to pay lawyers 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.119 to be your agent and each those different jurisdictions, and 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:07.440 so if you had to do that all at once, 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:10.160 but how it would be a lot of upfront costs 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:14.000 which in the end you may decide you don't even 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:16.320 want to pursue it, depending on how your drug development 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:18.880 and your research is going. So this sort of provides 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:22.639 an ability to file a single application, get that preliminary 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.359 opinion and hold off on some of those costs to 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:28.560 see if, down the road and in thirty months. However, 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:32.440 it takes whether it's even worth filing in those different jurisdictions. 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:36.280 So are most patent applications in the US simultaneously PCT applications, 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:38.240 or do people make a judgment and it's only apply 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:40.600 in a few cases? Sometimes people, if they want to 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:44.080 accelerate their patent grant, they might file both in the 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:48.760 US and the PCT simultaneously, or sometimes will enter us 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:52.159 or another country early and not wait the full thirty months. 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:55.960 It really depends on the technology. So you can imagine 0:18:56.320 --> 0:19:00.160 in a fast moving technology like the invention that has 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.160 to do with your smartphone, somebody might want to get 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:07.399 the patent granted as quickly as possible because the value 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.119 that application and the value of that invention might not 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:13.720 even exist five years from now. With something like drug discovery, 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:15.760 you might not have a drug on the market for 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:17.600 seven years or eight years or longer, and so you 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:21.240 don't really need to worry about having something that you 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:27.040 can hold against a potentially infringing competitor for for much longer. Now. 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:29.639 If if a company that did not have some of 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:33.520 those negative associations you describe about compass in terms of 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:36.800 their investors, in terms of, you know, having first been 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:39.320 a nonprofit and taking advantage of that to give them 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:41.760 an edge up as they became a for profit company. 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.199 Would there have been as much controversy you think about 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:46.960 them seeking and getting a patent for this other way 0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:49.920 of Synthesizing Psilocybin? I think there are probably some other 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:54.720 reasons besides just those you mentioned about the other ethics 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:57.480 perhaps of the company. I think one of them may 0:19:57.520 --> 0:19:59.560 just have to do that they were really the first 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:04.840 company that had a published psychedelics related application, so most 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:07.520 of the attention when it came was just directed to them, 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:11.879 as people were surprised to see something filed on a psychedelic. 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:13.800 I think another ask to do with the fact that 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:18.800 it's on Psilocybin and so many of the patent applications 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:22.200 on new chemical quantities, on on different types of psychedelics. 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.959 Perhaps had Sasha Shulgun filed them on to Seeb when 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:29.320 he first invented it, or another psychedelic that had never 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:33.640 been before known, those might have less, less controversy. With 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:36.879 psilocybin in particular, we know, of course, not only was 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:41.000 it discovered, I suppose, by the West with with Albert Hoffman, 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:44.639 and then patented, but it's been used in traditional and 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:49.600 indigenous ceremonies and uses for centuries or millennium even, and 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:57.120 so those aspects also caused another layer of controversy. We'll 0:20:57.119 --> 0:21:14.200 be talking more after we hear this ad when people 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:16.080 talk about what are the first substances that are going 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:19.400 to be approved for treating uh, you know, different types 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:22.119 of mental illness, people topically typically talk about m d 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:25.119 m a and the process that the organization maps is 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:27.520 pursuing to get approved by the FD A, hopefully later 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:29.679 this year next year. And the other one is the 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:34.480 process being pursued by compass to get psilocybin approved for treating, 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:38.480 I think, uh, intractable depression, and the argument by the 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:41.159 Goldsmiths and others is that if we did not have 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:46.080 a chance to patent this synthetics Um Psilocybin, then we, 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:48.480 quite frankly, could not raise the money to go through 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:52.480 the entire approval process required to get psilocybin approved for 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:56.159 treatment in the first place. So what's the response to 0:21:56.240 --> 0:22:00.080 their argument? Well, that is definitely the argument that is 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:03.840 always used by pharmaceutical companies and a big part of 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:07.240 the controversy around compass also is the fact that there 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:11.760 were other companies also pursuing psilocybin, like you SONA or 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:16.000 clinical development around the same time, and there are concerns 0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:20.240 that by filing these patent applications, compass may preclude others 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:22.560 from even continuing to do the work that they may 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:28.800 have started the forehand, and precluding other companies from their 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:32.919 work and bringing psilocybin also to patients. And so I 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:36.880 think we can also perhaps look at maps, as you mentioned, 0:22:36.920 --> 0:22:40.600 as alternative models to being able to bring a drug 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:44.399 through the FDA approval process without patents, although maps is 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:49.760 also relying on something called data exclusivity. So data exclusivity 0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:54.080 is a regulatory benefit that when a company is first 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:58.920 to obtain regulatory approval for a compound before anyone else 0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:01.280 on that compound, as maps would be with M D 0:23:01.400 --> 0:23:05.240 M A, that company has given five years or perhaps longer, 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:11.800 to be the exclusive company to sell that compound before 0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:16.000 others can rely on its regulatory data to also seek approval. 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:19.560 And so that does give maps a period of time 0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:23.600 which will be at least five years. Two gain back 0:23:23.680 --> 0:23:27.359 the type of profits that are argued to be necessary 0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:31.119 to bring the drug through drug discovery, although of course 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:35.320 maps also relies on philanthropic funding to have gotten the 0:23:35.359 --> 0:23:38.200 drug to that point, to be able to get that 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:41.240 data exclusivity. I've had Rick Doublin on and so you know, 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:43.879 obviously we look at with the maps model where they 0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:46.240 set up to nonprofits that sets up what's called a 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:49.719