1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman and this is psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of I heart radio and protozoa pictures. psychoactive is the 3 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs, but any 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I heart media, 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: protozoa pictures or their executives and employees. Indeed, as an 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not even 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: represent my own, and nothing contained in this show should 8 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 1: be used as medical advice or encouragement to use any 9 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: type of drugs. Hello, psychoactive listeners. So today's subject is 10 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: the issue of psychedelics and the law, specifically psychedelics and 11 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: Intellectual Property Law, the issue of patents. His name is 12 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: Graham Patch Nick. He's an attorney in San Francisco. We 13 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: founded a law firm about six years ago called Kalix Law, 14 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: C A L Y X, but he's been working in 15 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 1: the area of patent law now for a couple of 16 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: decades and a whole range of industries, the marijuana industry. 17 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,800 Speaker 1: Uh So, Graham, thanks so much for joining me on psychoactive. 18 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Ethan, for the honor of being here. 19 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: It's it's really enjoyed to be able to participate in 20 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: your podcast, which I've enjoyed for so long. Grandma. Want 21 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: to start off by sort of placing the issue of 22 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: psychedelic patents law at the intersection of two things. One 23 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: the broader issue of patent law, which will get into 24 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: broadly because obviously in many respects the issues that are 25 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: emerging in psychedelics patent law are just emblematic of the 26 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,199 Speaker 1: broader issues and challenges and problems in broader patent law. 27 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: But it's also at the intersection of Patent Law and 28 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: of PSYCHEDELIC law, and there's now a psychedelic law association. 29 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: I think they just recently had one of their first 30 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: meetings in September. And so, apart from patent law, what 31 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: are the other issues in psychedelics law? I mean, I 32 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: go back to thinking about those initial religious freedom cases 33 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 1: involving the churches that we're using Ayahuasca, the UDV and 34 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: the Siento dime. But apart from that religious peace and 35 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: the area you're working on especially now, what else lies 36 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: in that field of psychedelics law? Well, that's a good question, 37 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: and so I say there is the Psychedelic Bar Association, 38 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 1: which did just have its first psychedelic laws summit, which 39 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: had over three dozen lawyers who have an interest or 40 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: some bit of a practice in psychedelics. And there is 41 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: also actually, where I am a California psychedelics Bar Association 42 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: founded by two psychedelics General Council of two companies. In 43 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 1: terms of the amount of work actually that people can 44 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: do in terms of a focus, I think you're right 45 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: to call out the religious freedom restoration act and work 46 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: around there, because for many years that, I think, was 47 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: the predominant area. Or if somebody was interested in psychedelics, 48 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: law could work in and I think up until really 49 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: I've had the great fortune of having this niche and 50 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: psychedelics patents there haven't been all that many and certainly 51 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: not ones where one could make an entire practice or 52 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: the entire focus of a career on psychedelics. And actually 53 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: there's an article that just came out recently by Matt Zorne, 54 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: who I worked together with on a challenge against the 55 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 1: D a. The challenge against the D A was one 56 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: way we could get involved as lawyers who are interested 57 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: in psychedelics. So the DA had proposed to schedule five 58 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,839 Speaker 1: psychedelic trip to means and because Matt is a really 59 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: good d a lawyer and I had an interest in psychedelics. 60 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: We joined horses, along with some others, to challenge that. 61 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: I actually was reading that article that you mentioned, Graham, 62 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: by Matt just last night and prepping for our discussion 63 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: where he talks about the case, about the D E A. 64 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: I mean we've so long seen the D e a 65 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: as the bad guys, you know, trying to throw things 66 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: into schedule one without any proper, you know, do process 67 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: as her hearings. But this more recent case where the 68 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: D A targeted these five trip to mean is a 69 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: certain class of psychedelics and say they want to write 70 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: the schedule one. I remember Hamilton's Morris, you know, who's 71 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: one of my guests on psychoactives, sounding the alarm he 72 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 1: emailed made lots of other people, got a lot of 73 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: people mobilized and then I think Matt played a key role, 74 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 1: with assistance from you, in challenging this, hopefuly beating back 75 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: the d e a uh and forcing them not to 76 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: throw these things into schedule one. So wonder if you 77 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: could just tell our listeners to things. One, what was 78 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: special about that fight and secondly, do you think it's 79 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 1: going to have broader implications in terms of how the 80 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: D e a views other psychedelic substances in the future. Sure. 81 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: And so your first question, what do I think perhaps 82 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 1: was special about that? I think what was special really 83 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: was the just artillery, so to Speaker, the you know, 84 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: the amount of work that Matt in particular brought to 85 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: bear to this challenge. And so Hamilton Morris, as you mentioned, 86 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: was involved. There was another company, Pantasy of plant sciences, 87 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 1: and their CEO was very interested in this and it's 88 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: spent a lot of effort even before this had filed 89 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: against the DA. And then we had declarations from uh 90 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: for many experts on the really everything from the fact 91 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 1: that these particular compounds, we're not ones that had any 92 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: evidence of abuse and didn't pose any threat of safety 93 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: issues or any risks, and the D A's evidence that 94 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: dad was over a decade old, from a report from 95 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: around Um long before this the current wave of psychedelic 96 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: research and the PSYCHEDELIC grandis songs. But Graham, why, why 97 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: were they even bothering to try to throw these five substances, 98 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 1: and I mean was there was there any evidence that 99 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 1: they were being misused in the broader public. Yeah, that's 100 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: a really good question and it's not really something that 101 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: we were able to very easily figure out. I mean, 102 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: the reason they had this ten year old report was 103 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,239 Speaker 1: because back in the ats there was something called Operation 104 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: Red trip where the d a went after the vendors 105 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: of research chemicals of different trip to means, and it 106 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: looked like although they had went back then to go 107 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: after some of the ones that had broader use, these 108 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 1: sort of were left out because I didn't really have 109 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: that many reports of use and the only deaths that 110 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: were on record were poly drug abuse and involving other things. 111 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: But that, I think, still kind of remains a mystery. 112 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: What actually uh initiated this at the beginning of the year. 113 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: So in terms of you were able to beat them back. 114 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: Do you think it's going to impact how the D 115 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: e a operates in the future on other novel compounds, 116 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 1: especially psychonoloic compounds? Yeah, I mean I think that's really 117 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: a big open question and so this sort of first 118 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: way we thought about trying to see if there would 119 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: be any evidence of an answer was with the second 120 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 1: challenge there was to the d a. So just after 121 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: the d a proposed schedule these five psychedelic trip to means. 122 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 1: The D A also proposed to schedule too psychedelic finela means, 123 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: D O I and D c. both, similarly to the 124 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: five trip to means, had had very little evidence of abuse, 125 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: almost none. D O I, however, is something that's in hundreds, 126 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: if not thousands, of publications as a standard in research 127 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: because it's such a good serotonin receptor agonists and because 128 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: it is unscheduled, it's it's very easy to work with, 129 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: and so we were looking out to see if the 130 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,119 Speaker 1: D A's proposal there would would go forward, and actually 131 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: they withdrew that one as well. So it looks like 132 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: maybe with psychedelics there might be some leniency, but I 133 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: think with both they basically didn't say they're they're done entirely, 134 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: but just that they're going back to the drawing board. 135 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: So just briefly explained to the audience the difference between 136 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: the two categories of substance. Yeah, so the difference between 137 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: the two categories is based on the chemical structure, the 138 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: chemical backbone, or scoff hold is some as some call it, 139 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: and TRIPP to means have a chemical backbone that's the 140 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: same as Serotonin. So serotonin actually is for hydroxy, tripp 141 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: to mean. And so you know, we think of a 142 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: lot of psychedelics we know with perhaps tripped to mean 143 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: in the name. So die methyl trip to mean or 144 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: five methoxy trip to mean Um, and so these are 145 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: all tripp to means. LSD, for instance, is generally classed, 146 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: or can be as a trip to mean. It has 147 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: a more complex structure. Um. Even Ibagaine has a trip 148 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: to mean or Indole core as part of it Bein 149 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: ethyl means. Are Compounds that are like mescaline or or 150 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: M D M A, or have a scaffold that's like 151 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: an amphetamine Um, and amphenamine actually stands for an Alpha methylamine. 152 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: So these all have this finethylamine core which is more 153 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: like the dopamine neurotransmitter. So now let's just put this 154 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: into a kind of a little bit of historical context 155 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 1: with a with a couple of the most famous names 156 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: and psychedelics creation. Right. The first one is Albert Hoffman, 157 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 1: who was working at Sandaz and sort of discovered or devised, 158 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 1: however you want to put an LSD during World War 159 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: Two years. So Hoffman and Sandas did patent those things 160 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 1: back then. Right, those who were among the few patents 161 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:22,079 Speaker 1: in this area for many decades. Is that right? That's right. Yes, 162 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: so after Albert Hoffman received samples of Psilocybin Mushrooms, actually 163 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: from Gordon Watson, from the same area where Gordon Watson 164 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: went and had his the first time, Um, Albert Hoffman 165 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: and sandals filed patent applications on the the isolation of 166 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 1: PSILOCYBIN and also its use as a tranquilizer action. But 167 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 1: were there many, many more psychedelic patents back then, or 168 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: were these really sort of standing alone? For some decades 169 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: these were standing alone, and many people, of course, will know, 170 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 1: and with Pikel and Tiko, that there were, how underds 171 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: just in those books that were developed by by Sasha. Well, 172 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: I mean you're jumping to my next question here, which is, 173 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: did Sasha Shilgan ever seek or get a patent for 174 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: any of his creations, or do you know, did he 175 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: deliberately choose not to, because those two books, pe call 176 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: and tea call, which are essentially recipe books for hundreds 177 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: of these substances, put it out into the public domain 178 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: and I guess that presumably means they can't be patented 179 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: in the future, at least with the ways that he 180 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: used to synthesize them. But what do you know about 181 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: Sasha's history visa the patent? was He ever ever seeking 182 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 1: in that area or did he deliberately abstain from seeking that? 183 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: That's a good question actually. Interestingly, part of the reason, 184 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: I think Sasha was even able to do the amount 185 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: of chemistry that he did relating to psychedelics was due 186 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: to the fact that he had some very successful patents 187 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: that he filed when he was working at down and 188 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: those patents earned so much money for the company that 189 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: they gave him a little bit more free reigin with 190 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: his laboratory and allowed him to pursue some other interests. 191 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: In terms of his interest, though, filing patent applications on 192 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: his own. I think it's a little bit unsettled, but 193 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: there's a great article by by Matt Baggett about this 194 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: and from what we know, he did actually file a 195 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,719 Speaker 1: patent application on one trip to mean, I think it's 196 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: off a methyl trip to mean, because he saw a 197 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: commercial market for it actually as a stimulant, I think, 198 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: for older people. So I don't know that he was 199 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: constitutionally or philosophically against patent applications or filing patents to 200 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: protect work. I think perhaps he just didn't see that 201 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: there was a commercial market for a PSYCHEDELIC. Well, what 202 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: about something like two C B? I mean that's, you know, 203 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: while bigard is one of his major, you know, concoctions. Um. 204 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: But I presume there is no patent and presumably can 205 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 1: be no patent on two C B, since it's been 206 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: in the public record now correct. So I mean anything 207 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: published in Pikel and Tekel, anything at all. It's the 208 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: chemical structure itself disclosed to the public. That's something that 209 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 1: can't be patented itself, the structure at least. So perhaps 210 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 1: we'll get into but but of course, and not to 211 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: jump ahead, but you know there are patent applications filed 212 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: on Psychedelics, even known psychedelics. So the fact that just 213 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: the chemical compound can't receive protection for it alone doesn't 214 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: mean that it can't make part of a claim on 215 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: something else that involves it. So a different method of 216 00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: synthesizing it might be able to get patent protection. Sure, 217 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: a method of synthesizing it, maybe even a different form 218 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: of it. So maybe now to jump ahead. But so 219 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: there are some applications that are perhaps the most well 220 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: known in the space that covers psilocybin, some of the 221 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: first to be published, some of the ones that have 222 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: probably received the most conversation around them in controversy, and 223 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: they cover psilocybin in a particular crystalline form. So it's 224 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: not psilocybin, just a chemical structure, but it's the way 225 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: it is when it's part of a for instance, you know, 226 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: a drug dark when it's mixed with an excipient at 227 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 1: a certain purity and in a particular crystal instructure, as 228 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: somebody would receive it if they got it as a 229 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: prescription medication. So, Graham, why don't we just go directly 230 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: there then? So, I mean the case that most people 231 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: have heard of who follow this even tangentially is the 232 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: case involving compass right, and compass is, you know, one 233 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,559 Speaker 1: of the biggest and most prominent the cycle of companies, 234 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: was founded by the Goldsmith's, George Goldsmith, and his wife, 235 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 1: and he's taken, you know, a fair bit of Flak 236 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: Um Really, I guess, for two things. One is in 237 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: seeking successfully getting a patent for a particular formulation of 238 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: Psilocybin and then secondly, for you know, being highly ambitious 239 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: aggressive in trying to get patents for all sorts of 240 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: things associated with the administration Um of Psilocybin to treat 241 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: h chronic depression and things like that. So maybe just 242 00:13:53,000 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: explain to our listeners more about that controversy and it's significant. Yeah, 243 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: and so the controversy on the patents, I think, is 244 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: difficult to view outside of all the ways that it 245 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: is impacted by the broader controversies around compass and compasses 246 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: investors like Peter Thio and their long history. So I 247 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: do think to some degree the controversies on the patents 248 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: are inflected with these broader controversies around how they moved 249 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: from being a nonprofit to a for profit, how they 250 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: obtained information under the guise of what people say saying 251 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: they were at first a nonprofit and speaking with Mak 252 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: any academics who gave them information on on friendly terms 253 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 1: and then perhaps were tried to be held to nondisclosure agreements, 254 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: and how the company itself at one point allegedly try 255 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: to make it more difficult for its competitors to get 256 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 1: access to synthetic Solcibin to do research and a number 257 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: of other things. I think that in pact the patent controversies, 258 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: the patent controversies themselves, there's really two types of patents 259 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: that they've pursued. One have been primarily on this psilocybin 260 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: crystal inform, this polymore for polymore of a as it's 261 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: described in their applications, and the other has been an 262 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: application they've filed that published as a pct application that 263 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: did contain all these aspects of the type of psychological 264 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: support a patient would receive and even qualities of the room, 265 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 1: the soft furniture, the high definition sound system, um. But 266 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: it did cover these interactions with a therapist, like hand 267 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: holding or the therapists putting their hand on the shoulder 268 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: of the patient and things. That seems clearly to be 269 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: part of what would expect perhaps in psilocybin therapy and 270 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: part of what one would expect perhaps not to be 271 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: things like be protected by a patent. In any event, 272 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: I mean it sounds like total huts, but I mean 273 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: the hand holding, our soft furniture or their sound stuff. 274 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: I mean that's so inherent to the experience that why 275 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: would they even think to include that stuff in the 276 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: first place? Is it just a broader notion that we're 277 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: getting a patent. You sort of throw everything against the 278 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: wall and see what sticks or or isn't there an 279 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: element of embarrassment about going that far? Yeah, yeah, I 280 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: mean I am actually surprised of anything and I don't 281 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: know what was encompasses minds when they filed this. So 282 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: I can only sort of assume, based on my presumption 283 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: of how most Patent Attorneys Act, I would be surprised 284 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: that they didn't spend the effort to call through their 285 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: patent a little bit or that that claims to see 286 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: what might raise these controversies. But it is fairly standard 287 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: practice when filing a PCT application to include often several 288 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: hundred claims and there's no additional charges for those claims. 289 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: Like there is a national examination and there's there's no 290 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: real downside to shooting them and so oftentimes everything that's 291 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 1: described in an application to some degree will make its 292 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 1: way into a claim and there may not be in 293 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: the end any real desire to pursue those things. Perhaps 294 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: the company wants to get an opinion. So actually, as 295 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: part of the PCT process, the applicant will get a 296 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: preliminary opinion from a PCT examiner. You're using an acronym. 297 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: There was it pct. So pct is a acronym that 298 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: stands for the Patent Cooperation Treaty. So it's a treaty 299 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: that has now a hundred and fifties seven, I think, members. 300 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: It's basically a treaty that allows anybody to file a 301 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: single application, that's the PCT application, and then have up 302 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 1: to thirty months from the earliest filing date to decide 303 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: whether to enter any of those a hundred and fifty 304 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 1: seven member states individually. And so the benefit of doing 305 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:57,080 Speaker 1: that is if you want to file and multiple applications, 306 00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 1: you know that's going to take a lot of expense 307 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 1: to to translate your documents, you'll have to pay lawyers 308 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: to be your agent and each those different jurisdictions, and 309 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: so if you had to do that all at once, 310 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 1: but how it would be a lot of upfront costs 311 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: which in the end you may decide you don't even 312 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: want to pursue it, depending on how your drug development 313 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 1: and your research is going. So this sort of provides 314 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: an ability to file a single application, get that preliminary 315 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: opinion and hold off on some of those costs to 316 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: see if, down the road and in thirty months. However, 317 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: it takes whether it's even worth filing in those different jurisdictions. 318 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: So are most patent applications in the US simultaneously PCT applications, 319 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: or do people make a judgment and it's only apply 320 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: in a few cases? Sometimes people, if they want to 321 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 1: accelerate their patent grant, they might file both in the 322 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: US and the PCT simultaneously, or sometimes will enter us 323 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 1: or another country early and not wait the full thirty months. 324 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: It really depends on the technology. So you can imagine 325 00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 1: in a fast moving technology like the invention that has 326 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: to do with your smartphone, somebody might want to get 327 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 1: the patent granted as quickly as possible because the value 328 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 1: that application and the value of that invention might not 329 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: even exist five years from now. With something like drug discovery, 330 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: you might not have a drug on the market for 331 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: seven years or eight years or longer, and so you 332 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: don't really need to worry about having something that you 333 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: can hold against a potentially infringing competitor for for much longer. Now. 334 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: If if a company that did not have some of 335 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: those negative associations you describe about compass in terms of 336 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: their investors, in terms of, you know, having first been 337 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: a nonprofit and taking advantage of that to give them 338 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: an edge up as they became a for profit company. 339 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 1: Would there have been as much controversy you think about 340 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: them seeking and getting a patent for this other way 341 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: of Synthesizing Psilocybin? I think there are probably some other 342 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: reasons besides just those you mentioned about the other ethics 343 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: perhaps of the company. I think one of them may 344 00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: just have to do that they were really the first 345 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: company that had a published psychedelics related application, so most 346 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: of the attention when it came was just directed to them, 347 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: as people were surprised to see something filed on a psychedelic. 348 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 1: I think another ask to do with the fact that 349 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: it's on Psilocybin and so many of the patent applications 350 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: on new chemical quantities, on on different types of psychedelics. 351 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,959 Speaker 1: Perhaps had Sasha Shulgun filed them on to Seeb when 352 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: he first invented it, or another psychedelic that had never 353 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: been before known, those might have less, less controversy. With 354 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: psilocybin in particular, we know, of course, not only was 355 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: it discovered, I suppose, by the West with with Albert Hoffman, 356 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: and then patented, but it's been used in traditional and 357 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: indigenous ceremonies and uses for centuries or millennium even, and 358 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 1: so those aspects also caused another layer of controversy. We'll 359 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: be talking more after we hear this ad when people 360 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: talk about what are the first substances that are going 361 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 1: to be approved for treating uh, you know, different types 362 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: of mental illness, people topically typically talk about m d 363 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: m a and the process that the organization maps is 364 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: pursuing to get approved by the FD A, hopefully later 365 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 1: this year next year. And the other one is the 366 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: process being pursued by compass to get psilocybin approved for treating, 367 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: I think, uh, intractable depression, and the argument by the 368 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: Goldsmiths and others is that if we did not have 369 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: a chance to patent this synthetics Um Psilocybin, then we, 370 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: quite frankly, could not raise the money to go through 371 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: the entire approval process required to get psilocybin approved for 372 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 1: treatment in the first place. So what's the response to 373 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 1: their argument? Well, that is definitely the argument that is 374 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: always used by pharmaceutical companies and a big part of 375 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: the controversy around compass also is the fact that there 376 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: were other companies also pursuing psilocybin, like you SONA or 377 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: clinical development around the same time, and there are concerns 378 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: that by filing these patent applications, compass may preclude others 379 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: from even continuing to do the work that they may 380 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: have started the forehand, and precluding other companies from their 381 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 1: work and bringing psilocybin also to patients. And so I 382 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 1: think we can also perhaps look at maps, as you mentioned, 383 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: as alternative models to being able to bring a drug 384 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 1: through the FDA approval process without patents, although maps is 385 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: also relying on something called data exclusivity. So data exclusivity 386 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: is a regulatory benefit that when a company is first 387 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: to obtain regulatory approval for a compound before anyone else 388 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: on that compound, as maps would be with M D 389 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: M A, that company has given five years or perhaps longer, 390 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: to be the exclusive company to sell that compound before 391 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: others can rely on its regulatory data to also seek approval. 392 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: And so that does give maps a period of time 393 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: which will be at least five years. Two gain back 394 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: the type of profits that are argued to be necessary 395 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: to bring the drug through drug discovery, although of course 396 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: maps also relies on philanthropic funding to have gotten the 397 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: drug to that point, to be able to get that 398 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: data exclusivity. I've had Rick Doublin on and so you know, 399 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 1: obviously we look at with the maps model where they 400 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: set up to nonprofits that sets up what's called a 401 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,719 Speaker 1: public benefit corporation in order to market M D M 402 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: A and M D m a treatment once it's approved 403 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: by the F D A, with all the profits going 404 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: back into maps, and then maps pouring all those profits 405 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: into further, you know, good cluset right, psychedelics, uh research 406 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: and even into broader drug policy reform. I don't know 407 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: if it's an optimal model, but we see it as 408 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 1: one of the best models out there. Conversely, we look 409 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: at a thing like compass, which is essentially a for 410 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: profit company, you know, with obligations to its shareholders and 411 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: produce your obligations there. Um See, you know that that, 412 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: even though it's going to be producing something that's valuable 413 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: for humankind in terms of Psilocybin being used to treat 414 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: intractable depression, ultimately there's a bottom line profit. Saying. Now 415 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: there's another entity, activists in all of this. There's an 416 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: or of nonprofit called freedom to operate, which was started 417 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: by one of the major philanthropists in the psychelics area, 418 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: carry turnbull, and freedom to operate was really set up 419 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: to kind of prevent for profit companies from taking advantage 420 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 1: and using their finance and power to block others from 421 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: getting involved. And ultimately they spent a million dollars or 422 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: more to challenge compasses effort and ultimately they failed. Compass 423 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: prevailed and I'm sure is did you think that freedom 424 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: to operate was going to succeed, Um, and therefore surprised 425 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: if they were not successful? Or why do you think 426 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: compass did prevail in the end? Well, so I wasn't 427 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 1: terribly surprised. It's, I think, a result more of just 428 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: the nature of patent law. The compass has quite narrow claims, 429 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: even though they've been often described as really blocking the field. 430 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 1: Quite narrow claims on this specific polymorph and there they 431 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: are drafted in such a way that it's quite difficult 432 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: to have evidence to show that anything before there application 433 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: was filed would be the same as what they're covering Um, 434 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 1: and so that's, you know, sort of just a trick 435 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 1: of their patent drafting and a trick of the way 436 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: that the patent system itself operates, and so I don't 437 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: think I was surprised at the outcome of the case. But, 438 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: you know, I certainly do see the you know, the 439 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: concerns around the fact that there, of course, we're forms 440 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: of synthetic Paul cybin before and there may be other 441 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: forms of synthetic pulcybin that, even if they had been 442 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 1: produced before and in use before, they may now infringe 443 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: compasses claims and so to the degree they would be 444 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: able to keep a competitor from being able to market 445 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 1: their own sulcybin products. I do see that that's a concern. 446 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 1: So Great. Let me circle around in it from a 447 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,399 Speaker 1: different angle on this in this case, you know, I 448 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: had a while back Leonard Picard on psychoactive and as 449 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,959 Speaker 1: many of our listeners know, you know he is regarded 450 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: as one of the great underground chemists UH and produces LSD. 451 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: In the late twentieth century he spent a couple of 452 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 1: decades in prison and fortunately got out. But when he 453 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 1: speaks about the underground, the Brotherhood of underground chemists and 454 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: he and others creating you know, they're unique types of LSD. 455 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: You know, were these things that potentially could have been 456 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: patented if these guys had wanted to go through that process, 457 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: notwithstanding it's illegality, were they likely doing things that were 458 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: sufficiently unique in terms of the way that they were 459 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 1: synthesizing or making the lst that would have been patentable? Well, 460 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: that's that's a really good question. I mean how unique 461 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: they were. I guess I'd have to talk to Leonard 462 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: to understand the, you know, the steps of the process 463 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: that allegedly he was pursuing, and certainly I don't I 464 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: don't know enough about the chemistry to understand if it 465 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: was something that was patentable. Um, in terms of whether 466 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: the patent office might grant a patent on it, I 467 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: think because of the fact that many of these processes 468 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: were not published and we're not included in any prior patents, 469 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: the patent office generally, I think it's perhaps safe to say, 470 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 1: could have granted patents on them, and so there is 471 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: a bit of a disconnect there in terms of a 472 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: patent to be granted has to be something that's novel 473 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: and inventive, but the patent office to determine whether something 474 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: is novel and inventive really just looks at higher literature 475 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: and some of the peer of viewed literature and some 476 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: of the places that are more obvious to do research, 477 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 1: but it certainly doesn't look to see what people are 478 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: doing in the underground and even today might not look 479 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,160 Speaker 1: at things that one might see as obvious, like looking 480 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: on Uh errowit or blue light or a forum, UM, 481 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: looking on Reddit, even doing a google search. M You know, 482 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: actually there there's a case. I mean you used a 483 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: term of art in the patent law field, prior art, 484 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,719 Speaker 1: and and I've oftentimes read about the infamous example of 485 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: the D Mt Vate Pen uh and it sounds like 486 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 1: that's a pretty good example of one of the major problems, 487 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: not just in the psycholical area but the broader pattern area, 488 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: that we now have a federal pattern office which has 489 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: existed for two centuries. I mean pattern law is in 490 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: the U S constitution, but where it's overstaffed and undertrained. 491 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: So just tell our listeners a little bit more about 492 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: that d m t U Vay pen and why it 493 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: stands out there is an the apple and what's wrong 494 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: with the system. Yeah, I mean that example I used 495 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 1: generally just because it's it's very easy to see how 496 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: the patent office in this case just completely missed the 497 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: prior art and it's a really good example using it again. 498 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: So the prior art is a term of art. I suppose. 499 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: The prior just means anything that's public before the date 500 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: that the patent application was filed. The main part of 501 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: the patent examination process is just for the patent examiner 502 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: to look at the application and in particular, the claims 503 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: of the application. So the claims are what the applicant 504 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: rights to say this is what I should own, and 505 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: it compares those claims to what's in what's called the 506 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: prior art, which just means everything that's public before the 507 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: patent was filed, so everything that was basically in the 508 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: public domain. So, for instance, was something like a vape pen. 509 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: The patent applicant will draft a claim that will say 510 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: a you know, a device for vaporization that contains a 511 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: chamber with a liquid for vaporization, with a chemical compound 512 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: like D mt, and then the patent examiner will take 513 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: that claim and say, well, has anybody else ever done 514 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: this or describe this before, and then it will do 515 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: a search and then it will see if somebody has 516 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: if somebody has and will project the claim and then 517 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: the applicant will come back and say, well, but they 518 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 1: didn't do it quite like this or the way I'm 519 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: doing it is a little bit narrower, or they'll say no, 520 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: you're you're misreading with the prior art says and actually 521 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: it says something different. Um and the patent examination process 522 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: might take four or five years or longer, with three 523 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: or four or five different times going back and forth 524 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: in writing or sometimes with phone interviews between the Examiner 525 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,239 Speaker 1: and the applicant to decide what's in the prior art 526 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: and what's being claimed and to try to narrow the 527 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: claim so nothing in the claim is covered or covers 528 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: what's in the prior art with this d m t vapen. 529 00:30:54,520 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: So the application covered basically D M T vapens. They're 530 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: very broadest had figures which were pictures basically of, you know, 531 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: what you would imagine a d m t vapen looks like, 532 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: the same way you know a cannabis vape looks like 533 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: the kind you can buy the dispensary. Um and the 534 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: patent examiner did a search and it looked at prior 535 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: patent applications and then it did a search in a 536 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 1: particular database of chemical abstracts from the just scientific literature 537 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: for less than seven minutes, because everything is on the record. 538 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: So you can see the search terms they use, you 539 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: can see how much time they spent, you can see 540 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: the databases. They looked in Um and they searched for 541 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: a few terms like dimethyl trip to mean, but they 542 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: didn't search for d m t, the abbreviate just to letters. 543 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: They didn't search for Vapen, they didn't search for Google 544 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: and because of that they missed the fact that the 545 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: few months prior to the application being filed there was 546 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: a whole double blind article on d m D v 547 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: Apens with many pictures. It looked just like the pictures 548 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: in the path an application. UH, several years before that 549 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: there was an article by somebody, Lester Black, who wrote 550 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 1: all about D M T v APENS and actually wrote 551 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: about how he receives some copies of D M T 552 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: v APENS and describes him in the article Um. Coincidentally, 553 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: D M T v APENS. That actually, I believe, came 554 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: from David Heldre, who, David Heldreth, has talked about this. 555 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: So I don't think I'm revealing anything offered controversial. Actually 556 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: say tell our audience who David Heldreth. So David Heldreth 557 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: is the CEO of Pantasy Plant Sciences who he mentioned, 558 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: who was the sort of thorn in the d a side, 559 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: who may have been part of the reason why the 560 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: d a had been thinking about these particular trip to 561 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: means when they decided to schedule them. Um, just a 562 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: sort of small world coincidence in terms of getting back 563 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: to the DM DV apens. But in any event, because 564 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: the patent examiner didn't do a google search, didn't search 565 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: for vapen or for D M T, they decided that 566 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: this was a novel and Inventive Uh invention and they 567 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: granted it patent on it, and the patent covers any 568 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: d m t vapen that you would see and can 569 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 1: that pattern that will be reversed. I mean now that 570 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: there their mistakes are become so publicly known, it could 571 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: be Um, the you know the the type of effort 572 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: it might take, but it hasn't been. No. So somebody 573 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: could do what for him to operate did as you mentioned? 574 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: I don't think it. In this instance. It would costs 575 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: a million dollars, but it is quite expensive so it's 576 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,719 Speaker 1: over fifty dollars just in filing fees to the patent 577 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 1: office two challenge a patent after it's been granted, Um. 578 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: And of course that's before you even pay for for 579 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: lawyers and in many instances you probably have to pay 580 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: for an expert to submit an affidavit Um and gather 581 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: other factual information. So it's, you know, a bit prohibitive 582 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: to be able to challenge patents after they've been been granted. 583 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: And so you know, the D M T v APEN has, 584 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: you know, it's not not necessarily the example of the 585 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: most valuable patent that's out there, but it's a an 586 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: easy example to see the way that the patent office 587 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: can miss things and in this way of missing things 588 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: because of, as you mentioned, that the Patent Examiners are 589 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:09,439 Speaker 1: typically overworked. Um. There's actually a bill pending right now 590 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: by by two senators, Leahy and until us, to try 591 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,439 Speaker 1: to give pattent examiners more time. They don't always spend 592 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: as little as seven minutes, but they don't generally spend 593 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: all that much time and not enough time because of 594 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: the way they're rewarded up for just moving quickly through applications, 595 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: and so this means that many patents get granted and 596 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,800 Speaker 1: many of those granted patents can end up being asserted 597 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: against companies who could have been doing the same thing 598 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: they were doing even before the patent was filed, and 599 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: so this is often kind of wasteful litigation that it's 600 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: taking away from real innovation. One thing also, I mean 601 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 1: I know you worked in, Uh did a fair bit 602 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: of work in the area of marijuana law and patents 603 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: before you jump more fully into the psychedelics area. And 604 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: I saw that one of the CO founder of Compass, 605 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: George Goldsmith, was quoted as saying that when he it started, 606 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 1: one of his models, his role models, was GW pharmaceutical, 607 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: you know, the UK firm which I think was the 608 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 1: first to get approval and get a patent for its 609 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 1: Um you know, it's it's version of medical marijuana. So 610 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: can you say a little something? Why would why would 611 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: George Goldsmith, ahead of compass, have looked to g double 612 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: pharmaceutical and what was the significance in the marijuana field? Um, well, 613 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: it's a good question and actually I should say I 614 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: think even my start to a large degree was because 615 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: of what G W Farma was doing in that a 616 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:38,200 Speaker 1: lot of my early clients in the cannabis days before 617 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: I started working in Psychedelics, was because there are many 618 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 1: companies that were looking at what Gw was doing and 619 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: and seeing that was a way of raising money to 620 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: to try to bring other canabinoid based medicines to to 621 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: market through the FDA approval process. But what Gw Farma 622 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: did was file many patent applications. I think they have 623 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 1: several hundred on purified forms of CBD and and all 624 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,320 Speaker 1: the ways that CBD can be used in different types 625 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: of treatment. GW has patents covering CBD for just about 626 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 1: everything you can think. So in terms of this industry now, 627 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: I mean look, obviously when when the companies are engaged 628 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,960 Speaker 1: in trying to come up with truly novel products, right, 629 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: new psychedelic substances in the way that Sasha was creating 630 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 1: in his backyard lab UM, or if they're trying to 631 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 1: create a new version of U, say AAHUASCA D Mt 632 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 1: Without the nausea or a shorter acting thing. I mean 633 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: there are some people who are out there just saying hey, 634 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 1: leave nature alone, we got what we need. We don't 635 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: need new synthetic creations but I think most people would 636 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 1: say no, you know, uh, individuals, the companies should be 637 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: free to try to create other novel psychelic substances that 638 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: may be enhanced the benefits of what nature has already 639 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,399 Speaker 1: produced or reduced the downsides, or that can be more 640 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: efficacious in various ways or more naturally tailored to treat 641 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 1: certain conditions. Right. But what we also know is that, 642 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: whether we're talking about the psychedelics are almost any other here, 643 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,960 Speaker 1: that the vast majority are not really about that. So 644 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: I was reading recently, I don't know when exactly this 645 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: piece was written, but it said that if you look 646 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 1: at the top five public psychedelics companies by market CAP, 647 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: so a Thaie life sciences, which invest in a range 648 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: of other companies, compass, which we've talked about, mind mead, 649 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 1: which you've mentioned, and also G H research in Cybin, 650 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,439 Speaker 1: they've already submitted or owned the rights to at least 651 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: a hundred fifty seven patents, with undoubtedly hundreds more in 652 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,719 Speaker 1: the pipeline. So what I'm curious there is that, I mean, 653 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: is this all sort of, you know, ultimately going to 654 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 1: turn out? I mean, whatever value added it happens here. 655 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: I assume that most of these are not novel products. 656 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 1: A lot of them are all forms of administration or 657 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: you know synthesis that are not all that crucial to 658 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: the advances. I assume that many of them their market 659 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 1: cap value is based upon how likely they are to 660 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: get a patent and that's primarily what's drawing, you know, 661 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 1: driving them. So I'm wondering, are we all headed in 662 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,720 Speaker 1: the wrong direction on this thing, or is there any 663 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: collaborative effort among the leaders, the for profit leaders um 664 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: together was say, Rick Dolbin's maps or or carry Turnbull's 665 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: Um Freedom to operate? So two part question. Is it 666 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 1: all heading the wrong direction and is there any collaborative 667 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: effort to try to write this? Well, yeah, those are 668 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 1: really food questions. I mean I maybe I'll start with 669 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: the second because it's the easiest one, because it's just 670 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: the answer at least, is I don't know, and perhaps 671 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: I don't think so. I mean I certainly think that 672 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: there could be ways of collaborating, but just in terms 673 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 1: of the way the system is set up and that 674 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,839 Speaker 1: this is not something about just perhaps psychedelics, but just 675 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: about the you know, the way are are just corporate 676 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: ecosystem and broader capitalist system is structured. You know, I don't. 677 00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: I don't think these companies are necessarily going to pair 678 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: with AH nonprofits and and and try to work together. 679 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: I know that their investors would want that. Um, maybe 680 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 1: to answer one thing just that you didn't ask, which 681 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: was just about the number of patents. I mean you're 682 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: right to call the very large number of them, but 683 00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: I think part of this is just because with any 684 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: even individual drug there are dozens, if not hundreds, of 685 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: patents filed on just like a single drug. So I 686 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 1: don't think all of these will reflect necessarily novel compounds 687 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 1: or novel ways of really doing things. In terms of 688 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: our we all pointed in the wrong direction. You know, 689 00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:34,120 Speaker 1: I often go back, um to something I heard at horizons, 690 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: which was Joe Green at the Business Day saying that 691 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,760 Speaker 1: in Oregon it costs five and a half million dollars 692 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,600 Speaker 1: to bring measure one o nine through, and I don't 693 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 1: know what it costs to get measure one tent through, 694 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: but I know I would imagine it's something on that 695 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: same order. Now, if we think of all these companies, 696 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: and by the way, for our listeners, one oh nine, 697 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: Um was was the initiative in Oregon to legalized psycholic therapy. 698 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,080 Speaker 1: And the one ten is the one that was D 699 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,360 Speaker 1: by Drug Policy Alliance under my successors, together with allies 700 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: in Oregon, which is essentially a Portugal model, the all 701 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: drug decrim and a siphoning money over to treatment for addiction. 702 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,960 Speaker 1: So yeah, right now and that you're good to describe those. 703 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,280 Speaker 1: So yeah, so obviously one to measure to get drug 704 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 1: or PSILOCYBIN therapy legalizing and one for decriminalization, and both 705 00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 1: just in one state, in Oregon. But let's say even 706 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,399 Speaker 1: together it was, you know, it's something on the order 707 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: of ten million dollars. And so calling this out to 708 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 1: say at Horizons Um that you know the amount of 709 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,080 Speaker 1: money that's raised by all of these companies, so g 710 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,839 Speaker 1: h Pharma, Atie, compass, mind met the others, many, many 711 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 1: orders of magnitude more than ten millions of ten million dollars. 712 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:49,160 Speaker 1: So are we pointing the wrong direction? Maybe the question is, 713 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: is putting all this money in drug development, in patent filings? 714 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 1: Is that going the wrong direction? Mean what would all 715 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,760 Speaker 1: this money do if it was put into drug policy 716 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 1: or form into a to decriminalize drugs at the state level? 717 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:07,400 Speaker 1: And to attempts to provide other legally legalized, regulated Um 718 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,479 Speaker 1: ways to access psychedelics, like what measure one on nine 719 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: is going to do an Oregon Um. And so, you know, 720 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 1: it's a question, I suppose, of just kind of priorities, um, 721 00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 1: but but it is something that I think, uh, depending on, 722 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 1: you know, what what you see as being the sort 723 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 1: of ideal orientation for a future psychedelics market, that perhaps 724 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 1: we could be pointing away from it. Because what I 725 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 1: worry about old say is I look, you know, another 726 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,399 Speaker 1: issue that I was involved in deeply was the one 727 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 1: around overdose and making the locks zone more available. And that, 728 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,400 Speaker 1: you know, the lock zone was patented, uh, I don't know, 729 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,360 Speaker 1: sixty years or so by Jack Fishman and a few others. 730 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 1: It was not a big profit thing that patent ran out. 731 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: But then you have one company that comes along and 732 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,440 Speaker 1: produces a nasal spray version and another one that produces 733 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 1: an auto injective version. So they're making a little easier 734 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: for people to administer and then they do everything possible 735 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: to try to block others from coming into that. And 736 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: the face of a massive over those fatality crisis, you know, 737 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: we have these products of Deloson, which has cost pennies 738 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: or maybe dollars to make, but the products are being 739 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: sold for, you know, you know, tens of dollars, if 740 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 1: not hundreds of dollars. And so is that a risk 741 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 1: in this psychedelics area, in the psychedelic Strap Ay area, 742 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,120 Speaker 1: are we going to see an issue where, in fact, 743 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 1: some of the first companies to succeed in getting patents 744 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:32,319 Speaker 1: land up blocking significant innovations and reductions and cost in 745 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,239 Speaker 1: the way that we saw happen, for example, in the 746 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,799 Speaker 1: the loxone area? I mean, I definitely do see that 747 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,319 Speaker 1: that's a concern and that really just is the way 748 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: the patent system plays itself out. The benefit of the 749 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,080 Speaker 1: patent to the patent holder is that they can set 750 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,400 Speaker 1: prices however they want. That's the monopoly power that the 751 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:52,839 Speaker 1: patent gives them and I think in just about every 752 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,400 Speaker 1: instance with pharmaceutical drugs, they tend to go up in 753 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 1: price as the patent life goes along because the company 754 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: has the ability to set those prices on their own. 755 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,759 Speaker 1: And so I mean to myself, this is something I'm 756 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 1: very sensitive too because as a type one diabetic, I 757 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,319 Speaker 1: use insulin and insulin I think like a Oxon very 758 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,960 Speaker 1: famously was was patented many, many years ago, and actually 759 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,400 Speaker 1: that the pattern was sold to a university for a 760 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:21,960 Speaker 1: dollar because the inventor wanted insulin to be broadly available. 761 00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: And people now, a hundred years later, still might pay 762 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 1: over a thousand dollars a month for it Um and 763 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:32,320 Speaker 1: so similarly, I think in the pharmaceutical space companies know 764 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 1: how to play these games with their their patents, to 765 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,920 Speaker 1: extend patent life and patent protection, to find ways to 766 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:44,440 Speaker 1: patent tweaks to a molecule or delivery device or a 767 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:49,640 Speaker 1: way that it's being offered, to continue to be able 768 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 1: to raise prices and exclude competition. So I do see 769 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:59,359 Speaker 1: that once the psychedelics enter the pharmaceutical system is at large, 770 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: those suffer from all the same structural failures of the 771 00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:09,360 Speaker 1: broader patent system within the pharmaceutical industry. Let's take a 772 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:25,239 Speaker 1: break here and go to an ad. So when it 773 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,799 Speaker 1: comes to solutions, right, so there's the big picture one, right, 774 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 1: which is about the overall patent system being broken. Right. 775 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,680 Speaker 1: So The New York Times earlier this year had a 776 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:39,759 Speaker 1: huge editorial called Save America's patent system. You know about how, 777 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: fundamentally broken it is and what needs to be done. 778 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,040 Speaker 1: And then there was a very good article, I think 779 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,359 Speaker 1: you've quoted various places, by one of the smartest young 780 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,719 Speaker 1: journalists covering the psychedelics field, Shalah love, and the title 781 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 1: of her piece was psychedelic patents are broken because the 782 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 1: patent system is broken. So we're talking about patent reform 783 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,680 Speaker 1: in the US. Is Anything on the horizon thin or 784 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 1: are we just kind of doomed to keep living with 785 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 1: this for years the way it is? Well, I hope 786 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:07,440 Speaker 1: you don't have to end here, because how do to 787 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:11,360 Speaker 1: some degree think that we in a sense are doomed, 788 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: at least with the patent system we have, especially when 789 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 1: it comes to the pharmaceutical space, because the pharmaceutical lobby 790 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,239 Speaker 1: is really one of the strongest and the pharmaceutical lobby 791 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,800 Speaker 1: has been doing all it can to keep the patent 792 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,719 Speaker 1: system working in its favor. And so I think there 793 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,640 Speaker 1: certainly are efforts, and I will keep my fingers crossed 794 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 1: that these efforts can be successful, both in terms of 795 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,400 Speaker 1: sort of at the individual level, like with what the 796 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,920 Speaker 1: hey utilius are doing, making sure individual patents are are 797 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,000 Speaker 1: are granted fairly, and in view of all the proper 798 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 1: prior art Um. I think, for broadly that the patent 799 00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,719 Speaker 1: system itself. There are things that are being worked out 800 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,520 Speaker 1: through other reform bills that have been introduced in I 801 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 1: think there's still a chance there can be something that 802 00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:02,640 Speaker 1: might raise the standards so that pharmaceutical innovation actually occurs. 803 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 1: I mean, despite the fact that hundreds of pharmaceutical patents 804 00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,799 Speaker 1: are granted every year, it's a or on every drug, 805 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: even it's a very small number of them that actually 806 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,360 Speaker 1: provide any real innovation in terms of patient outcomes and 807 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,880 Speaker 1: in terms of clinical benefits. Um. But I mean I 808 00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:23,320 Speaker 1: think even Perdue Pharma right effectively extended the patent or 809 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,680 Speaker 1: got a new one on its oxy content just by 810 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,800 Speaker 1: a slight reformulation and effective interactions with FDA. And I 811 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:31,800 Speaker 1: think what they were doing was fairly typical. Right, you 812 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,560 Speaker 1: have a kind of medication which maybe a breakthrough or 813 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,520 Speaker 1: semi breakthrough, but then just by tinkering it with it, 814 00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,880 Speaker 1: they just keep extending their protections, patent protections, keeping the 815 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:45,000 Speaker 1: cost up, blocking generics and uh, and and yet you know, 816 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,560 Speaker 1: for all the politicians saying we need to fix this Um, 817 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:50,920 Speaker 1: not much is happening. I think that's right, and I 818 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,440 Speaker 1: mean it's it's wrapped up inside, you know, broader reform 819 00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:57,080 Speaker 1: to to just the healthcare system and the way insurance 820 00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:01,920 Speaker 1: covers drugs and health care more broadly. And so it 821 00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,359 Speaker 1: is in terms of a structure to look out at 822 00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:09,120 Speaker 1: from within the the PSYCHEDELIC space. It's something that is 823 00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:13,880 Speaker 1: pretty daunting to think that the ethos of the psychedelic 824 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,600 Speaker 1: space somehow can be used as a as a model 825 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,360 Speaker 1: to reimagine the pharmaceutical patent system at large. But I 826 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:23,520 Speaker 1: think there are ways to that. Companies within the PSYCHEDELIC 827 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,239 Speaker 1: space can choose to interact with the patent system a 828 00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,239 Speaker 1: little bit differently and there have been some examples of 829 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:31,640 Speaker 1: some companies who have made some attempts to do that 830 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 1: and I think it certainly is something that's on people's 831 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,600 Speaker 1: minds in the PSYCHEDELIC space. And so I think just 832 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,160 Speaker 1: the fact that so many people are talking about psychedelics 833 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,719 Speaker 1: patterns and see them as a as a problem, means 834 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,960 Speaker 1: that companies will, to the extent they have uh, you know, 835 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:53,120 Speaker 1: consumers of their of their products, concerned with what they're doing, 836 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,560 Speaker 1: perhaps can be held to higher standard. Well, you know, 837 00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,720 Speaker 1: I see. I mean if you look at the proactive efforts. 838 00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:02,640 Speaker 1: I mean we've discussed free to operate, right carry Turnbull's operation, 839 00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,399 Speaker 1: which try to block compass. But you know, there's also 840 00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,640 Speaker 1: this thing called Porta Sophia, right, which tries to address 841 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,080 Speaker 1: the issue with prior art and to try to make 842 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,719 Speaker 1: sort of create a database of all the prior art, 843 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,719 Speaker 1: you know, the pre existing you know, types of uses 844 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,400 Speaker 1: of these drugs so that people can't falsely make claims 845 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: for patents. And there's, I think you're, you're you're, a 846 00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:26,200 Speaker 1: thing called Psychedelic Alpha Dot COM um, which provides, you know, 847 00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,279 Speaker 1: a pretty good listing of all this. Just tell tell 848 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,879 Speaker 1: us a little more about what's going on with your 849 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:36,080 Speaker 1: thing and and port to Sophia, their significance and are 850 00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,560 Speaker 1: those sorts of ideas that come that are all settening 851 00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,920 Speaker 1: in other areas of non, you know, psychoactive drug areas? 852 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,720 Speaker 1: Maybe to the place to start with the Psychedelic Alpha 853 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,160 Speaker 1: is actually to sort of go back to the origin 854 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:52,640 Speaker 1: stories of it. Um, I actually was volunteering at a 855 00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,240 Speaker 1: at a maps INFO table at a at a conference 856 00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,319 Speaker 1: that just coincidentally happened to be the weekend after an 857 00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:02,560 Speaker 1: article by Olivia Gold Hill published on compasses first patent. 858 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 1: It hadn't yet published but they had Um told people 859 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,440 Speaker 1: about its filing and that it was on Psilocybin, and 860 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,640 Speaker 1: this article was really the first to kind of raise 861 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,640 Speaker 1: the outrage and because I mentioned everyone there that I 862 00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:20,279 Speaker 1: was a patent lawyer, I spent basically the weekend talking 863 00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,239 Speaker 1: about uh Psilocybin patents and how it could be even 864 00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,719 Speaker 1: possible to file a patent on PSILOCYBIN. And after I 865 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,040 Speaker 1: left the conference that weekend and went home, I started 866 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:34,840 Speaker 1: keeping track of a table of patents on Psilocybin in particular, 867 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,680 Speaker 1: at which point there were maybe a dozen and probably 868 00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,400 Speaker 1: not very many more, including the ones at Albert Hoffman 869 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,080 Speaker 1: had filed that Sandos. Since then, of course, now there 870 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:47,200 Speaker 1: are are many hundreds and because patent applications aren't published 871 00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,200 Speaker 1: until eighteen months after they're filed, there there's probably even 872 00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,880 Speaker 1: twice or three times as many now, but most of 873 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:58,359 Speaker 1: them still just secret. That is not only something that's 874 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,320 Speaker 1: in the in the PSYCHEDELIC space. I mean part of 875 00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,440 Speaker 1: the reason I decided it would be worthwhile publishing it 876 00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:07,120 Speaker 1: on Psychedelic Alpha was because it was, you know, a 877 00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,719 Speaker 1: good way of making people aware of the types of 878 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:12,440 Speaker 1: applications that were out there and and sort of starting 879 00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:16,960 Speaker 1: a conversation around them. But there's an organization called IMAC, 880 00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,040 Speaker 1: the initiative for medicines access and knowledge, which I use 881 00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:25,040 Speaker 1: their statistics a lot. I Am A K right, a 882 00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,560 Speaker 1: k dit org, which I think was an important source 883 00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,640 Speaker 1: for that New York Times editorial and it's been taking 884 00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:32,960 Speaker 1: on some of these issues in a broader way. So yeah, 885 00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,080 Speaker 1: very much so, yes, and they've been sort of counting 886 00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,719 Speaker 1: and cataloging that the number of applications that have been 887 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:44,440 Speaker 1: filed on of other pharmaceuticals, just in terms of seeing 888 00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,880 Speaker 1: the impact that they have on particular pharmaceutical drugs. And 889 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,880 Speaker 1: so to some degree that was, I'd say, somewhat of 890 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:55,200 Speaker 1: an inspiration, just seeing that a conversation can be started 891 00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:59,960 Speaker 1: around individual compounds through looking at the types of applications 892 00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:01,560 Speaker 1: that are filed on them and what that might mean 893 00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:05,080 Speaker 1: for the price of somebody using that that compound as 894 00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:09,879 Speaker 1: part of a medicine. Um. I see, and I think 895 00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,120 Speaker 1: even with Imac died or I MAAC, are they engaging 896 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,600 Speaker 1: in some ways in the psychological area or they are 897 00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,319 Speaker 1: familiar with it? Are you in contact with them? Well, yeah, 898 00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:23,640 Speaker 1: so they're co founder, Prett Crystal has um actually been 899 00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:27,759 Speaker 1: on a panel with me with Shakruna, Um, speaking of 900 00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:32,680 Speaker 1: Sheila love. I think Um really is, uh, the best 901 00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:37,160 Speaker 1: writer on on pharmaceutical or on psychedelic patents in this 902 00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,440 Speaker 1: space and and certainly everyone should read but she's written 903 00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:45,760 Speaker 1: about this. Um, she and Um Actually Josh Hardman and myself, 904 00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,560 Speaker 1: and pretty crystal proposed a panel itself. By southwest is 905 00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:51,680 Speaker 1: coming here, so we hope we can all speak together. 906 00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,479 Speaker 1: So we have, of course also been speaking a little 907 00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:58,080 Speaker 1: bit together in general and see that we're aligned in 908 00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:00,880 Speaker 1: terms of what we hope to see. For you know, 909 00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,719 Speaker 1: the psychedelic spaces is very similar to the types of 910 00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,040 Speaker 1: reforms that Imac for for decades now, has argued are 911 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:11,760 Speaker 1: necessary in the broader medicine space. And and and preachy 912 00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:16,040 Speaker 1: had done really great work arguing around access to AIDS, 913 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,680 Speaker 1: medications and and other drugs for for many years, even 914 00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,319 Speaker 1: before she started Imac, and has has long been an 915 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:27,600 Speaker 1: advocate for more equitable access to pharmaceuticals, and so definitely 916 00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,719 Speaker 1: saw both that as a resource but also as an 917 00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:35,560 Speaker 1: inspiration for sort of the ways that would be useful 918 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,360 Speaker 1: to sort of Orient Um ethics in the in the 919 00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:42,840 Speaker 1: psychedolic space itself. So Graham normally asked this the beginning. 920 00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,359 Speaker 1: But how did you get intold, I mean I've I've 921 00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:48,959 Speaker 1: heard you talk about growing up in the west coast 922 00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,040 Speaker 1: with Hippie parents and getting involved at a young age 923 00:52:52,120 --> 00:52:54,440 Speaker 1: on UH. You know, I think you said you've been 924 00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:56,000 Speaker 1: involved with the prop two fifteen in the Middle Ca 925 00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:58,800 Speaker 1: Marojuina initiative twenty five years ago. But just teleraudience a 926 00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,960 Speaker 1: little more about your evel Lucian uh into becoming one 927 00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:05,480 Speaker 1: of the leading patent lawyers working in this area. Yeah, yeah, 928 00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:08,560 Speaker 1: I think maybe going back to that Um property fifteen 929 00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:10,680 Speaker 1: is but sort of how I draw my origin story, 930 00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:14,279 Speaker 1: although I suppose maybe the fortune of growing up in 931 00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:16,520 Speaker 1: Oakland too. I mean so I do mention, you know, 932 00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:18,600 Speaker 1: my my mom went to Berkeley in the Sixties and 933 00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:21,600 Speaker 1: Um my dad did have his share of long hair, 934 00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:23,560 Speaker 1: although I don't think they were either, the two of them, 935 00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:26,759 Speaker 1: that much into psychedelics. And so I grew up with 936 00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,239 Speaker 1: be here now sort of as a coffee table book 937 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:31,680 Speaker 1: and you know, Carlos Castaneda and other books on the 938 00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,239 Speaker 1: the bookshelves. That sort of piqued my interest. And so 939 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:36,239 Speaker 1: I was kind of a stoner in high school and 940 00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,600 Speaker 1: when proper to fifteen was on the ballot. Actually one 941 00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:40,920 Speaker 1: of the first things I did was, when I had 942 00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,560 Speaker 1: my driver's license, go collect signatures for the ballot on 943 00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:47,200 Speaker 1: in front, in front of a couple of grocery stores. 944 00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:53,000 Speaker 1: And in college, fairly early I had my first psychedelic 945 00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:58,400 Speaker 1: experiences and I had so much inspiration from those that 946 00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:02,080 Speaker 1: I changed my major to, you neuroscience, to try to 947 00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:06,680 Speaker 1: both learn a little bit more about how it had 948 00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:10,520 Speaker 1: those impacts on my on my consciousness, how chemicals like 949 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:15,120 Speaker 1: that could have such a profound role in, uh, shifting 950 00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:17,160 Speaker 1: the way that I saw myself and saw the world. 951 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:19,680 Speaker 1: Um and actually, for a time in college thought that 952 00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:24,440 Speaker 1: perhaps I could study a some sort of psychopharmacology or 953 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,919 Speaker 1: I speaking of peakle and Tacl and I bought bought 954 00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:33,280 Speaker 1: those books Um and sort of saw Sasha. I suppose 955 00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,759 Speaker 1: it's something of a Um inspiration. And you know, I 956 00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,680 Speaker 1: received some encouragement from others that law school might be 957 00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:42,160 Speaker 1: a good way if I was interested in drug policy, 958 00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:46,400 Speaker 1: and so somewhat naively, I suppose, in retrospect, because thinking 959 00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:50,160 Speaker 1: I could work in cognitive liberty or something like drug 960 00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:54,279 Speaker 1: policy with law school loans. Um, it did end up 961 00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:57,920 Speaker 1: in law school but realized that the Science degree to 962 00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:01,279 Speaker 1: to pay off my loans was best used in the 963 00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:05,359 Speaker 1: the patent space, which was, you know, hiring it good 964 00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,239 Speaker 1: salaries and paying bonuses. And even though I had written 965 00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:11,719 Speaker 1: my law school term paper actually on the way that 966 00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:17,359 Speaker 1: generics are kept off the market by aggressive patent policies and, Um, 967 00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:22,120 Speaker 1: how drugs are are kept expensive by the sort of 968 00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,879 Speaker 1: abuse of the patent laws, it spent the first sort 969 00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,879 Speaker 1: of half decade of my career at a law firm 970 00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:32,720 Speaker 1: in New York working with branded drug companies to actually 971 00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:37,120 Speaker 1: keep generic drugs off the market for longer, Um, and 972 00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,120 Speaker 1: so to some degree I think I'm paying off that 973 00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:42,360 Speaker 1: Karma a little bit now. Well, I'm curious how you 974 00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,399 Speaker 1: balance that now, right and because obviously you know many 975 00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,440 Speaker 1: of your clients are going to be for profit companies 976 00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,120 Speaker 1: and are when you're talking with them or they want 977 00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:53,000 Speaker 1: to hire you, retain you or if you're already working 978 00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:55,200 Speaker 1: for them, are are there lines where you say look, 979 00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,640 Speaker 1: this is something I cannot make that argument here, or 980 00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:00,840 Speaker 1: do you turn down client who wants you to do 981 00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:03,520 Speaker 1: things that you don't feel or ethically right. I mean 982 00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,920 Speaker 1: because you're obviously out there as a forceful voice in 983 00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:08,759 Speaker 1: terms of it trying to advocate for good policies in 984 00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,400 Speaker 1: this area. You serve, you as an advisor to Chakruna, 985 00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:13,480 Speaker 1: you know, be able about these organizations doing a lot 986 00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:16,320 Speaker 1: of good work, but you're also, you know, a for profit. 987 00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:18,440 Speaker 1: I mean you were an attorney with clients. So how 988 00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,799 Speaker 1: do you balance that in your in your professional life? Yeah, 989 00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,120 Speaker 1: that I think is really the best, the best kind 990 00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:25,719 Speaker 1: of like the best question, and I think that is 991 00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:30,480 Speaker 1: the attention that I find myself trying to navigate and 992 00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:33,040 Speaker 1: spend a lot of my own time really thinking about. 993 00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,359 Speaker 1: I'm fortunately, I think that when I started my own firm, 994 00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:38,000 Speaker 1: to sort of go back a little bit before maybe 995 00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:43,320 Speaker 1: answering the question, when I started Calix Law in actually 996 00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:46,160 Speaker 1: that tension was sort of part of the reason for 997 00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,879 Speaker 1: even starting it. I had worked for a long time 998 00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:53,280 Speaker 1: on a case against Monsanto with their genetically modified crops 999 00:56:54,000 --> 00:57:00,360 Speaker 1: Um and I had obviously been very interested in cannabis 1000 00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:02,200 Speaker 1: and that was part of the reason for wanting to 1001 00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:06,280 Speaker 1: enter the cannabis space as a patent lawyer and because 1002 00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:08,320 Speaker 1: of my interest in it. I had a number of 1003 00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:11,920 Speaker 1: friends who are trying to go from the legacy market 1004 00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:14,560 Speaker 1: into the sort of adult use market at the turn 1005 00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:18,919 Speaker 1: of and sort of my thesis for starting my firm 1006 00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:22,760 Speaker 1: was that there were ways for smaller inventors to get 1007 00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:27,520 Speaker 1: involved with the patent system and two also used the 1008 00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:30,520 Speaker 1: patent system to keep off a company like a Monsanto 1009 00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,840 Speaker 1: or a Philip Morris from entering the cannabis space and 1010 00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,160 Speaker 1: sort of taking it over and dominating it. And so 1011 00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:41,760 Speaker 1: that sort of tension between seeing patents as ways of 1012 00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:47,439 Speaker 1: giving a leg up to smaller, independent inventors, but also 1013 00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:51,440 Speaker 1: as a way of keeping a market from being dominated 1014 00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:58,120 Speaker 1: by aggressive monopolists. Um is sort of the kind of 1015 00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:00,640 Speaker 1: premise that I even started my firm with, and so 1016 00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:05,880 Speaker 1: taking that kind of thinking through to the psychedelic space, 1017 00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:10,120 Speaker 1: I think that was part of the kind of fortune 1018 00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:13,840 Speaker 1: that let me see that there were these issues around 1019 00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:18,280 Speaker 1: pcybian patenting, for instance, Um, perhaps a bit earlier than 1020 00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:20,600 Speaker 1: you know, maybe some others did, and so I think 1021 00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:25,640 Speaker 1: I'm I'm fortunate for having spent some time talking about 1022 00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:32,720 Speaker 1: those controversies that I actually do get presented with opportunities 1023 00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:35,920 Speaker 1: to to try to find ways to to navigate them. Um, 1024 00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:41,080 Speaker 1: from clients who who see patents as being necessary to 1025 00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:44,680 Speaker 1: raise money. I have some clients who tried to go 1026 00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:49,600 Speaker 1: without patents and just pursue their their work, uh, sort 1027 00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:52,120 Speaker 1: of in the open, put things in the public domain, 1028 00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:55,760 Speaker 1: and and sometimes found that they either couldn't raise money or, 1029 00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:59,320 Speaker 1: in one instance, another company took an article that they 1030 00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:02,520 Speaker 1: had published and filed patterns covering exactly what it was 1031 00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:07,280 Speaker 1: that they had described. Um, and so I saw a 1032 00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:09,280 Speaker 1: concern that like, well, if we don't file a pattern 1033 00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:11,800 Speaker 1: for like, what if somebody else does? And so, Um, 1034 00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:16,800 Speaker 1: I don't know that I've perhaps had to turn down 1035 00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:20,560 Speaker 1: clients for wanting to unethically use the patent system, and 1036 00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:23,040 Speaker 1: maybe I've just had the fortune of because I've been 1037 00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,200 Speaker 1: to some degree of kind of a voice for for 1038 00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:28,880 Speaker 1: balance in the patent system. Okay, so last questions here. 1039 00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,400 Speaker 1: One of the issues that's been out there more and more, 1040 00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,480 Speaker 1: and I know that Cody Swiss River Stix Foundation is 1041 00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:37,520 Speaker 1: making this issue and others have, is what is owed 1042 00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:42,680 Speaker 1: to indigenous peoples when the psychedelic products that, you know, 1043 00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:48,440 Speaker 1: emerged from their indigenous uses start becoming commercialized, and so 1044 00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:52,040 Speaker 1: you know I mean when we look at Mescaline and Peyote, 1045 00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:54,920 Speaker 1: when we look at Eboga coming from cabone and the 1046 00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:58,160 Speaker 1: surrounding areas in West Africa, I mean he's came so 1047 00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:02,400 Speaker 1: much out of indigenous use, is mescal in Um. And 1048 01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:05,760 Speaker 1: so it's a question what is owed and exactly to whom. 1049 01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,920 Speaker 1: And then there's the broadening of the issues. So, for example, 1050 01:00:09,960 --> 01:00:13,160 Speaker 1: when it comes to Psilocybin, mushrooms are growing, you know, 1051 01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:15,520 Speaker 1: they grow all around the world and on the one 1052 01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:19,400 Speaker 1: hand you hear the claim. Well, but for Maria Sabina 1053 01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:23,680 Speaker 1: Educating Gordon Wasson, you know, sixty, seventy years ago. You know, 1054 01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:26,600 Speaker 1: we want to have all these people aware of Psilocybin uh, 1055 01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:28,200 Speaker 1: you know, in other parts of the world. But then 1056 01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:30,120 Speaker 1: I think it's Paul stamens will say, well, hold on 1057 01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:32,600 Speaker 1: a second. PSILOCYBIN has been actually used around the world 1058 01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:34,880 Speaker 1: of different ways for a long time. So let's not 1059 01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:39,080 Speaker 1: extend this indigenous obligation issue to PSILOCYBIN. And then, of course, 1060 01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:41,160 Speaker 1: as m D M A, which is a twentieth century 1061 01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:46,120 Speaker 1: synthetic creation Um, is anything owed from something like m 1062 01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:49,560 Speaker 1: d m a UH to indigenous people? So what's your 1063 01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:53,880 Speaker 1: view on on what is the proper obligations and and and, 1064 01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:59,120 Speaker 1: to the extent there are obligations, how those should be addressed? Yeah, yeah, 1065 01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:01,680 Speaker 1: I mean well, M D M A, even though Um, 1066 01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:06,360 Speaker 1: I think, comes from Sasha's tinkering, so to speak, with mescaline. 1067 01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:09,600 Speaker 1: So perhaps even there you could draw some degree through 1068 01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:13,440 Speaker 1: line back to try to find some way to provide reciprocity. 1069 01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:16,040 Speaker 1: I mean, if we speak in terms of legal obligations, 1070 01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,680 Speaker 1: legally there really are none in the sense that there 1071 01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:26,720 Speaker 1: are some treaties, there is something called the Nagoya Protocol, 1072 01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,520 Speaker 1: but it hasn't been adopted by the US ratified by 1073 01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:34,920 Speaker 1: the US, and so there's basically just the patent law, 1074 01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:40,280 Speaker 1: which prevents companies from patenting something that are that's done 1075 01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:44,240 Speaker 1: by somebody else. But there's certainly no mechanism for reciprocity. 1076 01:01:44,320 --> 01:01:47,280 Speaker 1: It's in the law, unfortunately. So it really is up 1077 01:01:47,360 --> 01:01:50,640 Speaker 1: to to us, I suppose, to decide what companies are 1078 01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:53,960 Speaker 1: owed and to hold companies to account for that. In 1079 01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:57,440 Speaker 1: terms of my own views, I mean I think this 1080 01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:00,680 Speaker 1: all really comes down to just the broader controversy to 1081 01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:06,160 Speaker 1: around patents, which is where the values derived from and 1082 01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:11,040 Speaker 1: how much of that value gets extracted towards the the 1083 01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:12,920 Speaker 1: owner of a patent or the the owner of a 1084 01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:17,440 Speaker 1: group of patents. And we can look at not just 1085 01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:21,880 Speaker 1: psilocybin but sort of any invention and I think any 1086 01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:26,760 Speaker 1: invention to some degree, I think even the UH that 1087 01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:28,800 Speaker 1: the saying goes. You know, we stand on the shoulders 1088 01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:32,840 Speaker 1: of giants like nothing comes sue generous and even though 1089 01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:36,440 Speaker 1: our patent system is served based on this ideal of 1090 01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:41,000 Speaker 1: this kind of loan inventor genius working alone is workbench, 1091 01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:43,400 Speaker 1: who sort has this Eureka moment where he comes up 1092 01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:46,080 Speaker 1: with something that's never been done before and gets a 1093 01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:48,280 Speaker 1: patent on it and is entitled to all the monopoly 1094 01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:51,680 Speaker 1: profits on that for the next two decades. Nothing is 1095 01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:57,280 Speaker 1: quite like that. And so how do we really find 1096 01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:02,160 Speaker 1: a way to give some calculation to, you know, what 1097 01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:06,920 Speaker 1: is Ode and you know, where does the value derive from, Um, 1098 01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:13,440 Speaker 1: in terms of reciprocity, for for psychedelics? I mean, I 1099 01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:18,520 Speaker 1: I certainly think that it's important to recognize that. You know, 1100 01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:22,320 Speaker 1: many psychedelics come from these lineages where, whether they're just 1101 01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:26,360 Speaker 1: from underground use like m D M A, dating back 1102 01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:30,560 Speaker 1: to the seventies and eighties, whether they're from further back 1103 01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:35,040 Speaker 1: than that, dating back to Maria Sabina or earlier, whether 1104 01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:39,840 Speaker 1: they're getting back to, you know, potentially millennial use. Um. 1105 01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:45,200 Speaker 1: I think having the conversation that that people are having, Um, 1106 01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:47,800 Speaker 1: you know the question you're asking me, Um, not to 1107 01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:50,960 Speaker 1: necessarily dodge it, but I think that's what's important and 1108 01:03:51,040 --> 01:03:53,400 Speaker 1: I think it's you know it's even though I know 1109 01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:55,400 Speaker 1: you asked my personal views. I mean, I think it's 1110 01:03:56,320 --> 01:04:01,080 Speaker 1: an important decision for Vole to be making as the 1111 01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:06,760 Speaker 1: PSYCHEDELIC space starts to mature more in terms of trying 1112 01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:11,280 Speaker 1: to understand what the companies who make all the profits, uh, 1113 01:04:11,640 --> 01:04:16,520 Speaker 1: should be responsible for. And I'm here again optimistic because 1114 01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:20,800 Speaker 1: I see that there are many. Already you have found 1115 01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:25,680 Speaker 1: ways to try to give some degree of reciprocity. Um. 1116 01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:29,800 Speaker 1: There are companies who have given some portion of their 1117 01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:34,080 Speaker 1: profits or said that they've dedicated some portion of their profits, 1118 01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:39,520 Speaker 1: have given some of their equity, have provided other means 1119 01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:43,320 Speaker 1: of reciprocity. At the same time, I've also spoken to 1120 01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:50,800 Speaker 1: some indigenous people who feel like reciprocity, even as a term, 1121 01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:55,000 Speaker 1: is perhaps not used correctly, in the sense that it's 1122 01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:58,680 Speaker 1: only reciprocity if somebody accepts what you're giving to them. 1123 01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:00,640 Speaker 1: And so just for a company to to say, well, 1124 01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:04,280 Speaker 1: I'M gonna give ten percent back to the indigenous like that, 1125 01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:07,520 Speaker 1: not only is perhaps not enough, but it's maybe even 1126 01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:11,760 Speaker 1: a form of I know some people have called it 1127 01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:15,040 Speaker 1: tied eye washing or greenwashing, but sort of, I guess, 1128 01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:20,200 Speaker 1: avoiding a greater responsibility, which is perhaps what like the 1129 01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:26,520 Speaker 1: Nagoya Protocol I mentioned requires, which is actually consulting with 1130 01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:31,560 Speaker 1: the groups from which you're taking the knowledge or the 1131 01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:35,960 Speaker 1: wisdom and before doing something that would give you the 1132 01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:40,040 Speaker 1: profits that you would just give back, actually consulting, getting 1133 01:05:40,080 --> 01:05:42,920 Speaker 1: informed consent and having a process at the beginning to 1134 01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:47,000 Speaker 1: really share those those benefits. So last question, Graham. Do 1135 01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:49,560 Speaker 1: you have a favorite psychedelic? And the part to that 1136 01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:54,200 Speaker 1: question is can you think of any moments where you're 1137 01:05:54,240 --> 01:06:00,240 Speaker 1: a psychedelic experience actually proved specifically helpful in addressing um 1138 01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:04,040 Speaker 1: professional issues or questions that you were thinking through? Um? Well, 1139 01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:10,400 Speaker 1: so my favorite PSYCHEDELIC is mushrooms. Um just just because 1140 01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:15,720 Speaker 1: I love the I guess the fact that they're just 1141 01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:20,360 Speaker 1: so tangible and they're very accessible and that you can 1142 01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:23,880 Speaker 1: grow them quite easily yourself. You can find them places, 1143 01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:27,400 Speaker 1: often when you're not even expecting to. Um. I love 1144 01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:30,600 Speaker 1: just mushrooms in general and my my Fians, I and 1145 01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:32,600 Speaker 1: I are I think our our favorite thing to do 1146 01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:36,440 Speaker 1: together is a mushroom foraging Um, not usually for for 1147 01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:40,240 Speaker 1: psychedelic mushrooms, but just generally Um. And so, you know, 1148 01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:42,080 Speaker 1: I love the fact that they're just, you know, a 1149 01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:47,040 Speaker 1: natural thing and they're they're also very well they're a 1150 01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:49,480 Speaker 1: little bit variable, but they're much easier to dose than 1151 01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:51,720 Speaker 1: than other things, since you can see exactly what it 1152 01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:56,920 Speaker 1: is you're you're getting. In terms of professional impacts, I 1153 01:06:57,000 --> 01:06:59,120 Speaker 1: don't know, that's a good question. I don't know that 1154 01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:03,280 Speaker 1: I actually in terms of like creativity or the sort 1155 01:07:03,320 --> 01:07:07,800 Speaker 1: of stories you hear about people like, Um, Carrie Molli's or, 1156 01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:10,960 Speaker 1: you know, or somebody who's had a sort of Eureka 1157 01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:15,680 Speaker 1: moment that's been perhaps influenced by the use of psychedelics. Um. 1158 01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:18,400 Speaker 1: I think maybe it's because the last thing I generally 1159 01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:21,520 Speaker 1: want to think about when I'm on psychedelics is anything 1160 01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:23,360 Speaker 1: to have to do with patents or work. So maybe 1161 01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:25,200 Speaker 1: I should try and see if I can have some 1162 01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:28,280 Speaker 1: creativity on them. I mean, I definitely credit them with 1163 01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:34,160 Speaker 1: a lot of change in sort of personal um attributes 1164 01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:36,520 Speaker 1: sort to my life. I mean, I I had a 1165 01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:41,160 Speaker 1: long time where I was Um, somebody who didn't really 1166 01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:44,280 Speaker 1: have a healthy relationship with alcohol, and I found that 1167 01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:48,640 Speaker 1: I um had an experience with pulcibin mushrooms. Actually that 1168 01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:52,480 Speaker 1: reframe the way I was viewing my relationship with alcohol. 1169 01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:56,520 Speaker 1: And actually that's sort of last time after that that 1170 01:07:56,640 --> 01:08:01,600 Speaker 1: I have had any kind of uh use of alcohol, Um, 1171 01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:04,920 Speaker 1: and other things that I've had really personal meaning. But no, 1172 01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:08,840 Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna have to find an opportunity maybe 1173 01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:14,440 Speaker 1: to Um think about some of these pattern issues, what 1174 01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:16,920 Speaker 1: sort of reciprocity we are or some of the things 1175 01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:19,280 Speaker 1: you asked me that I didn't have very good answers for, 1176 01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:22,760 Speaker 1: and uh, maybe I'll find them. Okay. Well, Graham, listen. 1177 01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:25,439 Speaker 1: Thank you ever so much both for the work you're 1178 01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:27,640 Speaker 1: doing and for the taking the time to speak with 1179 01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:31,240 Speaker 1: me and our psychoactive audience. Thank you, even though that 1180 01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:34,799 Speaker 1: the briggles was entirely mine, Um, and I'm so thankful 1181 01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:37,560 Speaker 1: for being asked to join you in the conversation. I 1182 01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:41,280 Speaker 1: hope I see you again in horizons or another conference. 1183 01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:46,719 Speaker 1: So I hope to sting. If you're enjoying psychoactive, please 1184 01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:49,000 Speaker 1: tell your friends about it, or you can write us 1185 01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:52,120 Speaker 1: a review at Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 1186 01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:55,000 Speaker 1: We love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like 1187 01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:58,040 Speaker 1: to share your own stories, comments and ideas, then leave 1188 01:08:58,120 --> 01:09:02,360 Speaker 1: us a message at one, three, three, seven, seven nine. 1189 01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:08,639 Speaker 1: That's eight, three three psycho zero, or you can email 1190 01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:12,120 Speaker 1: us at psychoactive at protozoa dot com or find me 1191 01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:15,200 Speaker 1: on twitter at Ethan Natal Man. You can also find 1192 01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:19,439 Speaker 1: contact information in our show notes. PSYCHOACTIVE is a production 1193 01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:22,960 Speaker 1: of I heart radio and protozoa pictures. It's hosted by 1194 01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:27,360 Speaker 1: me Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by Noham Osband and Josh Stain. 1195 01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:32,120 Speaker 1: The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth geesus 1196 01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:35,639 Speaker 1: and Darren Aronofsky from protozoa pictures, Alex Williams and Matt 1197 01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:39,200 Speaker 1: Frederick From my heart radio and me Ethan Nadelman. Our 1198 01:09:39,400 --> 01:09:42,960 Speaker 1: Music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks to 1199 01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:57,679 Speaker 1: a Brios F Bianca grimshaw and Robert Deep. Next week 1200 01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:01,360 Speaker 1: I'll be talking with Professor Edwards Ainger, author of the 1201 01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:05,559 Speaker 1: book drunk who argues that the consumption of alcohol has 1202 01:10:05,720 --> 01:10:10,120 Speaker 1: been essential to the evolution of human civilization? You know, 1203 01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:12,240 Speaker 1: I look at evidence from other parts of the world, 1204 01:10:13,280 --> 01:10:17,080 Speaker 1: that wherever you look, it seems like the first cultivated 1205 01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:21,799 Speaker 1: plants were chosen for their psychoactive properties, not for nutrition, 1206 01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:25,400 Speaker 1: and so that's a sense in which, quite literally, the 1207 01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:29,840 Speaker 1: desired to get intoxicated gave rise to civilization. It's would 1208 01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:32,280 Speaker 1: cause on our gatherers to settle down in the first place. 1209 01:10:33,240 --> 01:10:35,560 Speaker 1: Subscribe to psychoactive now see it, don't Miss It.