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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom never told you. From how Supports

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline

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Speaker 1: and I'm Kristen, and I have tried to follow fashion

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Speaker 1: blogs in my time at tried and failed. I know

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Speaker 1: that sounds kind of silly to like say that you've

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Speaker 1: tried to follow a blog, but it is exhausting for

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Speaker 1: me to like be going to a blog every day

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Speaker 1: or in this case, in this day and age Instagram

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Speaker 1: account and look at all of these beautiful clothes and

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Speaker 1: just be like, I don't even know how do these

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Speaker 1: people even put an outfit together? Yeah, it makes me

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Speaker 1: feel behind. Scrolling through Instagram, I'm like, oh, man, I thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: and I looked down right now? Can I tell you

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Speaker 1: what I'm wearing? Should we describe what we're wearing to

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Speaker 1: let listeners know where we're coming from. I'm wearing a

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Speaker 1: striped sweatshirt a massive like lime green tank top underneath

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Speaker 1: it to cover up the fact that I'm wearing exercise

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Speaker 1: pants under that. You could call it athlete harker. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: cutting edge atha. Yeah, I'm wearing sneakers, and yes I

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Speaker 1: did um accessorise with a bracelet and a necklace. But seriously,

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Speaker 1: this is called I didn't want to put off take

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Speaker 1: off all of my pajamas, so you're half your half pajama. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I basically put on a sweatshirt and came to work.

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Speaker 1: I think that's totally fine. I used to literally go

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Speaker 1: to work in my pajamas when I worked at the

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Speaker 1: newspaper and I was hungover on Sundays because I worked

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Speaker 1: from Friday to Tuesday or Friday to yeah, that's right,

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Speaker 1: Friday to Tuesday, and so I'd go in on Sundays

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Speaker 1: just like, unapologetically disgusting. But you're looking more put together

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Speaker 1: than I am today, Oh thank you. I am wearing

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Speaker 1: a Canadian tuxedo. I'm wearing some dark dinnam pants in

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Speaker 1: a a shambre shirt yes oh yes, and a and

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Speaker 1: a chunky knit sweater over it because it's cold in Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: Finally it's chili here. But yeah, I mean I can't.

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Speaker 1: I can't keep up with with fashion blogs because it

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Speaker 1: just makes me feel like I need to immediately go shopping.

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Speaker 1: So what I do is when I get the urge

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Speaker 1: to go shopping, which is pretty spotty for me. I'm

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Speaker 1: one of those like I really do believe the science

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Speaker 1: that it is tied to ovulation. So it's like once

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Speaker 1: a month, I'll be suddenly like I need a new

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Speaker 1: something or other, and then I'll go online and you'll

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Speaker 1: google something or other. I'll google something or other and

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Speaker 1: what the Internet tells me is appropriate for ladies to

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Speaker 1: be wearing, then I might go get it. I'm so impressed.

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Speaker 1: But so you do like fashion research a list? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'll usually have like an instinct of like what I

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Speaker 1: want to be wearing. See, I just walk blind into

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Speaker 1: the store, which is why I end up with things

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Speaker 1: that don't go together. I'm not I'm not a browser.

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Speaker 1: I can't browse well, I don't see. I'm I'm more

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Speaker 1: of an efficient I'm more efficient than just browsing. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to go in into shop, but I'll walk

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Speaker 1: in and be like this, this, this, this and this,

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Speaker 1: try it on. Nothing fits. The one time and made well,

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Speaker 1: I got stuck in a silk shirt because my boobs

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Speaker 1: were too big for it. Uh, that was the longest

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Speaker 1: I've ever spent in a maid. Well, I do shop.

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Speaker 1: There's I like it. It's just you gotta watch out

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Speaker 1: for the silk shirts that don't have zippers, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you've got when you've got boobs on your chest.

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Speaker 1: Never been a problem for this, just it's a thing. Well,

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Speaker 1: but the thing about doing like fashion research, whether you

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Speaker 1: are intending to go shopping or whether you are just

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Speaker 1: passing the time on the internet, is that these fashion

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Speaker 1: bloggers can make everything look so perfect and effortless that

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Speaker 1: it does tend to make me feel like there is

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Speaker 1: no way I can achieve that. Like the way that

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Speaker 1: this woman or whoever is like putting together these outfits

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Speaker 1: and these successories. How did she even think of that?

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Speaker 1: My head is too big for that hat. I could

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Speaker 1: never pull it off. My face is too round. What's happening?

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Speaker 1: Where am I helped me? I'm trapped in blog world?

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Speaker 1: But I end up almost like resenting these strangers on

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Speaker 1: the internet for how amazing and put together they look.

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Speaker 1: I started following uh Chiara Farini, who's the blonde salad.

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Speaker 1: She's like a bajillion followers on social media. Uh, And

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Speaker 1: I like three days later I un followed her. Oh

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Speaker 1: it's too much, it's too much, And and I was

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Speaker 1: just like, I don't need to see like strangers in

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Speaker 1: designer dresses, like looking effortless with their glass of champagne,

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Speaker 1: because you know what, I am a effortless with my

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Speaker 1: glass of champagne on my couch on Sunday in my pajamas.

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Speaker 1: Leandrew Medine of Man Repeller is a rare fashion blogger

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Speaker 1: that I do follow, mostly because I'm drawn to her

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Speaker 1: business and branding savvy. But she's also one of those

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Speaker 1: where her outfits would look clownish on me because she can.

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Speaker 1: I mean, half of it is, you know, they're wearing

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Speaker 1: designer clothes. We're wearing made well sale, so there's going

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Speaker 1: to be a difference in how it's gonna at best

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Speaker 1: kinda look. Yeah, paid well sell the best. But there

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Speaker 1: have been so many times when she's like, now I've

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Speaker 1: got my highways cropped billowing trousers and my crop top

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Speaker 1: switchbacks ready to go. What did you even just say?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think a crop top switchback

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Speaker 1: is actually a thing. It sounds like a dance or

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Speaker 1: like a cheerleading move. It was like an old home

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Speaker 1: sculpture leading term from back in my youth. Well I

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Speaker 1: don't know where I got it, but that's just what

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Speaker 1: I think of. But what I'm what I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: say is I relate in not understanding how outfits are

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Speaker 1: pulled off, and I think Man Repeller obviously is one

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Speaker 1: of those top names in fashion blogging and fashion social media.

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Speaker 1: She definitely kind of at the top of the heap.

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Speaker 1: But it is interesting to see sort of the evolution

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Speaker 1: of fashion blogging, how it got started, what role the

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Speaker 1: recession played in it, the fact that it's almost basically

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Speaker 1: been distilled down except for maybe those people who are

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Speaker 1: at the top of the heap. It's been pretty much

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Speaker 1: distilled down to just like Instagram accounts nowadays, especially with

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Speaker 1: this flood of fashion bloggers into the market. But we

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Speaker 1: wanted to look at today the reality of what it

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Speaker 1: means to be a fashion blogger, whether you are the

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Speaker 1: Man Repeller at the top of the heap, or whether

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Speaker 1: you are you know, the mom in Albuquerque who just

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Speaker 1: really likes fashion and wants to blog about it or

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Speaker 1: Target halls. Yeah, Target, But it has changed so much,

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Speaker 1: even just as a complete fashion outsider that I am

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Speaker 1: from not so long ago, when I still remember a

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Speaker 1: friend of mine asking me, have you read Style Rookie before?

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Speaker 1: It's this amazing fashion blog that you have to read.

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Speaker 1: Her writing is so good and surprised. She's like like

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Speaker 1: thirteen years old. Oh my god. And she's talking about,

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Speaker 1: of course, um, Tobby Givinson, now of Rookie Magazine and

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Speaker 1: just all around amazing nous. And back then fashion blogging

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Speaker 1: was so much more, yes, curating outfits and photo shoots,

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Speaker 1: but it was her writing too that um really legitimized

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Speaker 1: the whole thing, whereas now it is so much just

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Speaker 1: insta followers, monetized, monetized, monetized. Do you know what I

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Speaker 1: was wearing? A twelve years old crop top switchback? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was underneath my sleeveless button up denim shirt and

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Speaker 1: which was tucked into my pleaded Bermuda shorts and belted.

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Speaker 1: And I don't mean to suggest in any way that

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Speaker 1: this was a positive look at all. Do you know

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Speaker 1: what pleaded shorts due to me? No? I don't. It's

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Speaker 1: not pretty ladies and gentlemen. But yeah, so I'm quite

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Speaker 1: impressed by by Tavvy. That was more doing my soccker phase.

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Speaker 1: It was lots of umbros and T shirts I thought

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Speaker 1: were cool, and by cool I mean duckhead T shirts.

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Speaker 1: No umbros were my twelve year old Caroline athletes. Sure

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Speaker 1: I would wear umbros for no reason really other than

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Speaker 1: to just be like, oh, I've got a breeze going

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Speaker 1: on now. Whereas twelve year olds today can go to

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Speaker 1: thrift stores, go vintage shopping, they can curate all these outfits,

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Speaker 1: they can create their own lifestyle brands and become fashion

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Speaker 1: brands of their own. Yea, So it's no wonder that

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Speaker 1: being a fashion blogger would attract so many people, whether

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Speaker 1: it's a passion for fashion or whether it's just people

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Speaker 1: who are like, I need to make money, and some

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Speaker 1: of those people end up making the jillions of dollars. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Harper's bizarre estimates that brands not like these cottage brands,

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Speaker 1: but big name brands, are spending more than a billion

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Speaker 1: dollars a year unsponsored Instagram posts. Yeah, so if you

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Speaker 1: are a top flight uh fashion blogger or fashion Instagram

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Speaker 1: or someone might come knocking and want to pay you

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Speaker 1: a bunch of money. And of course how much you

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Speaker 1: make depends on factors, mainly including audience size. But Harper's

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Speaker 1: was writing about how if you have hundreds of thousands

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Speaker 1: of followers, you can make anywhere from five hundred to

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Speaker 1: five thousand dollars per post, whereas if you have in

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Speaker 1: the millions. Your fee to some of these companies who

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Speaker 1: want you to wear their stuff can range from twenty

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Speaker 1: grand to a hundred grand per shot and I am dead,

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Speaker 1: I have died. I'm dead now, which shock well. The

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Speaker 1: thing about it is, though getting all that cash that

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Speaker 1: is that is literally killing you is fewer and farther

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Speaker 1: between these days. Because while this whole fashion blogging um

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Speaker 1: entrepreneurialism has grown with people like Rachel Parcel of Pink

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Speaker 1: Peonies and Amy Song of song Style like making all

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Speaker 1: this money and branding all of this stuff and having

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Speaker 1: these fabulous lives that we're all seeing and following and

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Speaker 1: making us want to get into the game. Because the

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Speaker 1: pool of bloggers is growing, brands are getting stingier with

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Speaker 1: their money and their sponsorships as well. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: obviously brands are getting hip to what is going on

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Speaker 1: on the internet, knowing that they can get away with

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Speaker 1: either not paying anyone anything or paying people a lot less,

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Speaker 1: like you should just be happy that we sent you

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Speaker 1: a purse, so like take pictures of yourself wearing it. Um.

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Speaker 1: There was a New York Times article in January and

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Speaker 1: they were talking to pr folks who admitted that the

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Speaker 1: quote digital girls. So in other words, fashion blogging women,

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Speaker 1: thank you very much, are sparking higher conversions. And that's

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Speaker 1: marketing speak for, uh, converting those web visits into direct

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Speaker 1: sales than celebrity placement. So Jennifer Aniston hawking like a

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Speaker 1: vino or what's the other one, living proof hair stuff,

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Speaker 1: it's not going to pay off necessarily as much as

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Speaker 1: if you're having these big faces in fashion blogging wearing

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Speaker 1: your stuff, because they are authentic, they're relatable, their effortless,

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Speaker 1: they're beautiful, they're just like you. Well, and you'll see

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Speaker 1: too in their Instagram posts. They will you know, you

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Speaker 1: can shop the post and like Bloomingdale's and other kinds

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Speaker 1: of stories like that, have set up systems where you know,

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Speaker 1: you get a cut of whatever sales that you you

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Speaker 1: make driving your followers to that store. Yeah, and technically

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Speaker 1: we should mention that according to the Federal Trade Commission,

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Speaker 1: these fashion instagrammers are supposed to disclose the gifts and

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Speaker 1: payments they received from companies, but the enforcements really uneven.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of like the wild West for fashion

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Speaker 1: bloggers in terms of the compensation you receive and whether

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Speaker 1: you are going to be reporting any on your taxes.

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Speaker 1: But the thing that we don't see that we did

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Speaker 1: talk about a lot in our hashtag Blessed podcast a

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Speaker 1: little while back, is all of the invisible work that

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Speaker 1: goes into even crafting just a single Instagram post, much

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Speaker 1: less managing an entire lifestyle brand, especially if you aren't

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Speaker 1: someone likely Andrew Medine, who now has a whole staff.

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Speaker 1: If it's just you, your life is your lifestyle brand. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so today and just a little bit, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be talking with Brooke Aaron Duffy, who's a professor at

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Speaker 1: Temple University School of Media and Communication, and Emily Hunt,

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Speaker 1: who's a pH d student at the University of Pennsylvania

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Speaker 1: and in Burg School for Communication. Communication students were upsentum

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Speaker 1: because these ladies just published a study about the hidden

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Speaker 1: lives of fashion bloggers. It's called Having it All on

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Speaker 1: Social Media, Entrepreneurial femininity and self Branding among fashion bloggers,

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Speaker 1: And the whole point of their research was talking to

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Speaker 1: a bunch of these women about what they do, how

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Speaker 1: they make their blogs, how they go about living their lives,

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Speaker 1: and they ended up finding a lot of drudgery behind

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Speaker 1: that whole, easy, breezy chic veneer such as eighty to

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Speaker 1: one hundred hour work weeks and Caroline, you, you and

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Speaker 1: I put in a lot of a lot of time

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Speaker 1: and stuff. I've never told you every week, not to

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Speaker 1: humble Brad, but eighty two hundred hours a week, it

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Speaker 1: is not no And I mean you can argue um

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Speaker 1: that this is a passion job. These women love fashion,

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Speaker 1: they love what they do. They're going to be taking

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Speaker 1: pictures anyway, so they should be making a little money

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Speaker 1: for it. But that's crazy town. A hundred hours a

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Speaker 1: week of anything is aside from sleep or maybe like milkshakes.

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Speaker 1: That's like crazy to be just posting about fashion all

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Speaker 1: the time and taking pictures of yourself all the time.

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Speaker 1: Hundred hours a week of drinking milkshakes. Okay, so bloated,

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Speaker 1: true real talk. I am lactics. Lactos does not agree

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Speaker 1: with me, and I missed milkshakes so much. That's me projecting.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Well, there's also not guaranteed financial stability with this,

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Speaker 1: no surprise, because it's a different kind of freelance work.

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Speaker 1: You're really going from maybe sponsorship to sponsorship or freelance

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Speaker 1: post to post, so until you are at that higher level.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're not necessarily going to be making the

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Speaker 1: kind of money to support the kind of lifestyle that

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Speaker 1: you will need to be projecting. Although yeah, yes, exactly.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of projecting, so Emily researcher. Emily wrote an email

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Speaker 1: that fashion bloggers look like they have it all, fulfilling careers,

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Speaker 1: financial success, flexible schedules, and fun lives. I mean that

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Speaker 1: sounds great, right, but unlike the having it all icons

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Speaker 1: of the analog era. She cites people like Helen Gurley

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Speaker 1: Brown or Ali mcbeel. She says, these creative mavens are

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Speaker 1: as sensibly women just like us. As such, their digital

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Speaker 1: images make it seem as though having it all is

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Speaker 1: accessible to all, just a whole lot of pass and

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Speaker 1: and a few social media accounts away, which, yeah, that

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Speaker 1: sounds like totally easy, right. So there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of really great, fascinating information to talk about with Emily

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Speaker 1: and Brooke when it comes to the hidden lives of

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Speaker 1: fashion bloggers, so many different aspects of what shapes a

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Speaker 1: career as a fashion blogger. It's definitely much more than

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Speaker 1: a hobby for the women they spoke with, and one

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Speaker 1: of the things that really shaped a lot of these

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Speaker 1: women's experiences was the oh, I don't know, entire recession

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Speaker 1: because when the economy became so unstable, it shook up

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Speaker 1: things that a lot of those legacy fashion magazines, but

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Speaker 1: it also meant that the rest of the economy was unstable.

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Speaker 1: So you have a lot of people going into starting

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Speaker 1: their own personal fashion brands, uh, not only as a

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Speaker 1: passion job, but also to make money. And so then

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Speaker 1: you have the issue of once you get into this

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Speaker 1: type of line of work, you have to make money somehow.

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Speaker 1: So part of the work that goes into it is

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Speaker 1: having to negotiate sponsored posts for however much money. There

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Speaker 1: was one article that we were looking at that talked

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Speaker 1: to a whole bunch of different fashion bloggers about how

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Speaker 1: much they made, which a lot of fashion bloggers are

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Speaker 1: a little reticent to talk about that. But Antoinette coolest Ak,

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Speaker 1: a Sydney fashion blogger, said, clients say, I'll pay you

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Speaker 1: to wear that dress, I'll pay you to wear those shoes,

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Speaker 1: So yeah, you know, they sponsor me. I hate to

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Speaker 1: say it, but if you think of me like a

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Speaker 1: giant billboard, people are paying for that space. Not everybody

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Speaker 1: is so open with that financial wheeling and dealing that

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Speaker 1: goes into what looks like just an effortless spontaneous image

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Speaker 1: and Caroline, in case you were wondering, a sweatshirt company

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Speaker 1: didn't pay me to wear the sweashot you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know, I look like a billboard in my in

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Speaker 1: my sweats today, you look like a vision. It's just me.

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Speaker 1: I'm sponsoring myself today. And in addition to the business

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Speaker 1: side of it, there's a whole community management side of

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Speaker 1: it that we know person really via working on the

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Speaker 1: internet as well. That you have your fans and advertisers

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Speaker 1: to answer to, but you also have to deal with

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Speaker 1: people who are not going to be so happy about

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Speaker 1: seeing you in a pretty dress or what you're cooking

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Speaker 1: for dinner, what you're doing with your kids. I mean,

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Speaker 1: online abuse definitely happens for these women as well, UM,

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Speaker 1: and it can be exhausting, especially when you are trying

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Speaker 1: to merge not just branding yourself but also branding your

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Speaker 1: entire family. And that's something that Heather Armstrong, who is

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Speaker 1: much more of a quote unquote mommy blogger than fashion

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Speaker 1: blogger UM, has experienced to the point that she ak

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Speaker 1: a deuce recently announced that she's essentially retiring from the

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Speaker 1: whole mommy blogger thing because her life had just becomes

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Speaker 1: so sponsored and it was in fearing with her kids lives. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she said that she found that brands that wanted to

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Speaker 1: be featured we're basically trying to exert more and more

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Speaker 1: control over not only what was featured, but the tone, uh,

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Speaker 1: the image itself. And She's like, listen, at some point,

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Speaker 1: I'm just a copywriter for you, like, and I'm not

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Speaker 1: earning benefits. I'm not earning like paid time off or

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Speaker 1: leave or anything that an employee might. I'm just some

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Speaker 1: lady on the internet and you're trying to exploit my

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Speaker 1: children for your benefit. Um. And one really important point

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Speaker 1: of the conversation with Brooke and Emily centered around this

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Speaker 1: idea of emotional labor and women's work. They argued that

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Speaker 1: fashion blogging is emotional labor, and what emotional labor refers

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Speaker 1: to is essentially managing your public facing persona and bodily

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Speaker 1: display in order to, i don't know, like kind of

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Speaker 1: sell a good. You're sort of selling your the experience

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Speaker 1: of being around you. Customer service, for instance, is a

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Speaker 1: form of emotional labor. It's going above and be on

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Speaker 1: so customer service might be answering the phone, uh to

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Speaker 1: make sure your customer has what she needs. But then

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Speaker 1: the emotional labor part of it comes in when it's

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Speaker 1: like you gotta make sure to smile, you gotta make

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Speaker 1: sure to look pretty, you gotta make sure to be pleasant.

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Speaker 1: Stuff that's not really easily quantifiable, but that could make

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Speaker 1: or break how successful you are at your job. And

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Speaker 1: so obviously this ties into a lot of what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about today in terms of emotional labor tending to

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Speaker 1: be gendered. It tends to be a term that is

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Speaker 1: used to describe a lot of the lower wage work

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Speaker 1: done by women in the service sector. And so in

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Speaker 1: this regard, fashion blogging is absolutely about going above and

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Speaker 1: beyond just taking a picture, writing a blog post, writing

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Speaker 1: an Instagram caption. It's absolutely taking time out of your life,

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Speaker 1: portraying yourself is so deliriously happy with this glass of

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Speaker 1: wine you're sipping and your you know, your new boots

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Speaker 1: or whatever. There is a degree of just having it

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Speaker 1: bleed into the rest of your life. And we actually

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Speaker 1: have two special guests on the podcast to talk more

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Speaker 1: about that concept. To A and we're going to hear

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Speaker 1: from them right after a quick break. Well, why don't

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Speaker 1: we get to our conversation with Brooke and Emily so

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Speaker 1: they can tell us a little bit more about the

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Speaker 1: hidden lives of fashion bloggers. I am Brooke Aaron Duffy.

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Speaker 1: I am an assistant professor at Temple University in Philadelphia.

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Speaker 1: I have a PhD in Communication from the University of

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania where we're at right now. UM and over the

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Speaker 1: past few years, I've been studying gender, social media, and

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Speaker 1: creative production and that's what led me into the topic

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Speaker 1: of fashion bloggers in the labor that gets performed there. UM.

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Speaker 1: I am Emily Hunt. I'm a PhD student at the

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Speaker 1: Annamburg School for Communication at the University of Pennsylvania, also

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Speaker 1: in Philadelphia, UM, and I do research on social media,

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Speaker 1: consumer culture, UM and creative work. And I'm particularly interested

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Speaker 1: in the fashion industry and fashion media. So I am

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Speaker 1: interested in touching a little bit on how exactly you

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Speaker 1: guys did get interested in fashion, What specifically led you

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Speaker 1: to that? UM? Sure, Well, for me, uh, fashion has

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Speaker 1: always been like an important part of my life. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I grew up UM making and designing clothes for myself

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Speaker 1: and I but I always thought of myself as a writer,

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to work at magazines UM. And so

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Speaker 1: after I graduated from college, I worked UM in magazines

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Speaker 1: for a few years, some fashion magazines and some health

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Speaker 1: related publications, and I was working at a really interesting

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Speaker 1: time for the industry, probably the worst time for the

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Speaker 1: industry and its history. It was during the recession, sort

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Speaker 1: of like the instability of these legacy publications, and then

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Speaker 1: UM the fashion bloggers that were really starting UM to

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Speaker 1: explode at at the time, and UM seeing these young

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Speaker 1: women basically making careers for themselves, UM I'm blogging really

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Speaker 1: just became like the buzzword UM at that time. And

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Speaker 1: I kind of thought to myself, like, I don't think

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Speaker 1: this is UM necessarily for me to do personally, but

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Speaker 1: I'm but what's going on is really uh interesting and

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Speaker 1: UM wild. And so I decided to go back to

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Speaker 1: school and kind of study these institutions UM and the

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Speaker 1: culture UM on a broader scale. So while Emily was

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Speaker 1: studying it from the inside, I was kind of looking

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Speaker 1: at it from a holistic perspective on the outside. I

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Speaker 1: was doing my dissertation work around the same time, and

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Speaker 1: I was really interested in how the women's magazine industry

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Speaker 1: was shifting in this moment where we're moving to digital

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Speaker 1: and increasingly social media platforms. And so I was doing

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Speaker 1: interviews with magazine producers, executives, and so forth, and the

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Speaker 1: topic of fashion blogging kept coming up. And you know,

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Speaker 1: the time, we were kind of seeing the end of

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Speaker 1: the debate fashion bloggers versus editors and so forth. But

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Speaker 1: but it was really reconfiguring the industry industry, the ways

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Speaker 1: in which magazine professionals were thinking about their role in

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Speaker 1: the larger fashion sector and how this is changing and

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Speaker 1: adapting in response to these new entrants. And so that

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Speaker 1: for me was you know, kind of sparked an interest

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Speaker 1: in understanding what these new social media platforms meant, both

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Speaker 1: for people inside the industry as well as those hoping

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Speaker 1: to make a living through it. Now, before we get

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Speaker 1: into the demographics of your study, that the broader group

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Speaker 1: of people that you looked at for your research, I'm

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Speaker 1: curious if there were any fashion bloggers in particular kind

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Speaker 1: of during this time that sort of casually piqued both

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Speaker 1: of your interests that you were especially drawn to or

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Speaker 1: compelled by. M hmm. That's a good question. I think

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Speaker 1: UM the man repeller for me was UM, a blog

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Speaker 1: that I started reading really early on UM, right right

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Speaker 1: soon after she launched, because she was a blogger who

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Speaker 1: was able to get publicity extremely quickly. And I kind

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Speaker 1: of started reading that blog and I and I have

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Speaker 1: really followed it pretty closely over the last few years,

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Speaker 1: just because I think UM that blog is an excellent

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Speaker 1: case study UM for the changes that UM fashion blogging

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Speaker 1: more broadly speaking, has experienced over the last few years.

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Speaker 1: And UM that's probably the most interesting blog to me

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Speaker 1: and has been for a while. And it's also interesting

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Speaker 1: to think about kind of waves. You know, we talked

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Speaker 1: about fashion blogging is this singular entity, but it's it's

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Speaker 1: really interesting to think about in terms of the generations

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Speaker 1: we've gone through. UM. So, the first generation, like CIRCU

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Speaker 1: two thousand six or so, we saw kind of this

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Speaker 1: rise of grassroots indie voices. We we saw the Brian

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Speaker 1: Boys and and the Amy Songs and and Tabby and

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Speaker 1: everyone was talking about this little, you know, twelve year

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Speaker 1: old girl who's sitting next to Anna Wintour and UM.

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Speaker 1: I think since then, it's it's just exploded so much

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Speaker 1: that we've seen the rise of various niches and fashion blogs,

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Speaker 1: but also we see a lot more similarity just because

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Speaker 1: of the oversaturation in the marketplace. So, for the purposes

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Speaker 1: and of your study, can you just tell our audience

429
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: a little bit about who you looked at? Who who

430
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: are your study participants? Sure? So we UM decided to

431
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 1: look at the fashion blogs who are UM top ranked

432
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 1: by the industry, and that basically means they tend to

433
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: be ranked by their engagement, by the level of engagement

434
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: that their audience has. So that basically means that UM,

435
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 1: the audience is clicking on what they post UM and

436
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: there's this sort of like measurable UM a way to

437
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: measure their success basically. And so that we pulled the

438
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: top thirty eight fashion blogs and it was going to

439
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: be forty, but it ended up being thirty eight because

440
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 1: we wanted to keep it to UM. The blogs that

441
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: remained independent and two of the blogs that were in

442
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: that top ranking had since spent purchased by UM like

443
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,440
Speaker 1: corporate blog networks UM, and so we removed them for

444
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: from our sample. And so that's how we ended up

445
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: with UM these top thirty eight blogs, and that was

446
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 1: the you know, we we conducted a visual analysis of that.

447
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 1: So we were going on Instagram, we were going on

448
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: the blogs themselves to get a sense of how they

449
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 1: present themselves on these different media um. And what was

450
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: I think important for us was to understand both what

451
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 1: bloggers were doing in terms of what they were posting,

452
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 1: but also what they were saying in a sense of

453
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: what was going on behind the scenes. UM. So this

454
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: study itself was based on I think eight interviews, but

455
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 1: over the past few years, Emily and I have together

456
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: done more than fifty interviews with bloggers at various stages

457
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 1: of their careers and and so forth. Well, so what

458
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 1: was the overall driving purpose behind this study? What were

459
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 1: you guys really hoping to learn and convey to readers. Well,

460
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: I think what first piqued our interest, um was we

461
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: were interested in what kind of messages these bloggers were

462
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: constructing via their social media presences and um on the

463
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 1: blogs themselves. Messages about what it means to do the

464
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: kind of work that they do, UM, About what it

465
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: means to be and and related to that is what

466
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: it means to be like an entrepreneur, a female creative um.

467
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: All these kinds of messages. And so we had some

468
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: UM like hunches about what we might find UM, and

469
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 1: so then we decided to just do UM, you know,

470
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: a deep systematic analysis of the narratives that they were

471
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 1: UM that they were constructing. So one of the things

472
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: that really jumped out to me in your study was

473
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 1: talking about how this relates to what you describe as

474
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 1: the long history of gendered emotional labor. And I had

475
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: just never thought about fashion blogging and even beauty vlogging

476
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: and d I y and crafting in that way before,

477
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 1: So I was wondering if you could talk a little

478
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: bit more about what that means and how it relates

479
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: to fashion blogging. Sure. I mean, one of the things

480
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: that was so interesting and compelling about this project was

481
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: the disparity between this kind of image of artful perfection

482
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: that we see on the Instagram images, and I think

483
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: so many of us compare us to the disparity between

484
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: that and the work, the labor that goes into this.

485
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: So there's been a lot of discussions lately about the

486
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: labor that people do online and the labor that goes

487
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: into self presentation, but I think it's important to contextualize this.

488
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: And in the early eighties, Arlely Hawkschild, who is a sociologist,

489
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: did some more. She was studying flight attendants and other

490
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: service workers and drew attention to the concealed labor they perform,

491
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: you know, the the way we present ourselves and the

492
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: work that gets involved in the the gendered notions of this.

493
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: And you know, it's really interesting to see similar things

494
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: among our serve among the people we were talking to

495
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: during interviews, that there's so much that gets obscured in

496
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: these images, the work of staging, the photos, of getting

497
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: ready and and I think most importantly the act of

498
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: promoting oneself, reaching out to one's networks, tweeting, Facebook, you know,

499
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: actually responding to comments and so forth. And I don't

500
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: think there's been given enough attention to the extent to

501
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 1: which these various codes, you know, drive the production and

502
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: drive the labor of the Instagram posting and blogging a general. Yeah,

503
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: and I think another thing about emotional labor as um.

504
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: Arley hawks Child to Finance, and she's a she's an

505
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: amazing sociologist and people might know her UM more like

506
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: from her work about the second shift. She's also the

507
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: sociologist who gave us that idea that UM women go

508
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: to work, and then there's a second shift at home

509
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: doing that kind of care work. But I think an

510
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: important part about the emotional labor um that she theorizes

511
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: is the also the imperative to create a certain emotional

512
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: reaction in the people that you are facing. So, for example,

513
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: a server at a restaurant has to manage UM because

514
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: or her own emotions, but they also have to try

515
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: to create an emotional feeling in the people that they're facing,

516
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: like you know, feeling comfortable, having fun, whatever that might be.

517
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,719
Speaker 1: And we saw a lot of similarities with UM what

518
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: the bloggers were doing, UM having to sort of interact

519
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: with their audiences and UM cultivate UM an emotional feeling

520
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: of fun or inclusiveness or community or stylishness or whatever

521
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: that may be UM with their with our audiences. Now,

522
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: one of the big elements of your study and things

523
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: that we've already been talking about is this whole idea

524
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 1: of the work being obscured. And I mean that's such

525
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: a big point because I know when I look at

526
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: some fashion blogs, your lifestyle blogs, you're just looking at

527
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: these pictures like, oh my god, these people are so beautiful,

528
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: their homes and their clothes are also gorgeous. You're not

529
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: really thinking about, well, wait, how many times did they

530
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: have to take that picture? What went into it? Did

531
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: they even get to enjoy their vacation with their families?

532
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: And so I would really love for you to talk

533
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: a little bit about how much of that work actually

534
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: does go into this whole looking natural thing, and like

535
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: these women and these bloggers have it all, like how

536
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: much is actually going on behind the scenes and what

537
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: toll is it taking. So that's again where you know,

538
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: we we found it so important to interview these women because,

539
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: as you're saying, you know, we we look at these

540
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: images on Instagram and you know, it's like the whole

541
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: fear of missing out culture. It just looks like such

542
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 1: a glitz and glamorous life and you know, hob nobbing

543
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: with celebrities and traveling all around the world. And when

544
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: we spoke with a lot of these women, I mean,

545
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: they were grateful for their opportunities, but they also wanted

546
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: to call attention to the fact that these are their

547
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: full time jobs. Their full time jobs is presenting a

548
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: certain image and so much of it is bound up

549
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: with their their personal brand. And so it was it

550
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: was really compelling to hear how much the idea of

551
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: maintaining the brand, crafting and maintaining the brand in all

552
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,239
Speaker 1: capacities guided so much of their lives. And you know,

553
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: we we have this sense of their professional and personal

554
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: lives blending together. I think in in in such a

555
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: interesting and an all inclusive way that you know, as

556
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: you mentioned, we one woman is saying, you know, she's

557
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: on her honeymoon and she feels like she has to

558
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: take images to put these ups that they can be

559
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: on Instagram. And another woman was saying, you know, like

560
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: the rest of us, if I have my regular Cereo breakfast,

561
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: this isn't going to go in aware. But if I

562
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: have my eggs Benedict and my Mimosa, then I'm going

563
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: to post this. And so so much about thinking how

564
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 1: we want to craft this persona in order to post

565
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 1: it online rather than you know, what we're actually enjoying

566
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: in this particular moment. Yeah, and as far as how

567
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: much work it takes, I it's pretty much all encompassing,

568
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: is the answer that we got pretty much across the board. Um,

569
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: but there is there is no real break and UM,

570
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: and you know, even when you're on vacation or you're

571
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: getting ready for bed or you know, whatever it may be,

572
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: these times that for many other people would be considered

573
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: a private time. Um, you're never really off. I think

574
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: constantly being on is the is the main imperative of

575
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: the job. And this idea of always being on means

576
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: that aspects of not just your personal life but those

577
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: around you need to have a continual presence on your

578
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: various social media channels. And so that means you know,

579
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: showing showing our families and and you know, showing our

580
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 1: pets and our homes and all these different spaces, and

581
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: so it's really this kind of compulsion to maintain visibility

582
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: and all senses of the word. Well, you guys talk

583
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: about the idea also of having it all, and that

584
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: maybe they're presenting sort of a new idea of the

585
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: woman who has it all. Did you get a sense

586
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: from these women that they were trying to convey that

587
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 1: but like, oh, look, I can have it all or

588
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: was that just sort of a side effect of like

589
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: trying to capture every moment of their lives. I think

590
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 1: there's a sense of having it all, but in kind

591
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: of a different way than we're used him. We were

592
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,760
Speaker 1: thinking of the eighties and nineties, this more post feminist

593
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: mode of having it all where it was really conflating

594
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 1: the family and the workspace. And so we're looking at

595
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: kind of a difference that we weren't looking at mommy bloggers.

596
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: But the having it all was was having this career

597
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: where we're doing what we love and it's okay that

598
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,880
Speaker 1: our person and professional lives fleed together. Um. But what

599
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: makes it kind of interesting was this image of perfection

600
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: also had these moments of seeming candor so presenting oneself

601
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: is real or authentic or relatable with something that that

602
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 1: kept coming up, But that too is constructed in a

603
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: way that has an image. It's always constructed against something.

604
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 1: So it's you know, having a sense of presenting what

605
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: self is authentic in a way that it becomes bound

606
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: up in the image itself. Do you think that audiences

607
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:40,439
Speaker 1: are becoming wise to that level of artifice? I mean,

608
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 1: as I'm listening to you talking, it's making me think

609
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: of the Instagram account, Soclity, Barbie Viral, and I mean,

610
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: I think a lot of us know that there is

611
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,240
Speaker 1: a level of artifice presented in a lot of these

612
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: fashion blogs and instagrams that we're seeing, But but do

613
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: we really embrace that? I don't know, I'm wondering, like,

614
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: what effect is this having on us? It's just the

615
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: average average Christians in Caroline. UM. I guess that's kind

616
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 1: of a hard question to answer because we didn't um

617
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 1: study the audience in in this research. But that's definitely

618
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: something that would be a great project going forward. I

619
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 1: think that I don't know. My my sense is that,

620
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 1: like you said, uh, people are more aware of and

621
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 1: they uh maybe once we're I thought there is a

622
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: lot of work and artifice and posing and things like

623
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: that that go on behind the singings. And also I

624
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: get the sense that people are more aware of the

625
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: of the money required to be successful in fashion blogging.

626
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: But that being said, because of this rhetoric um that

627
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: persists that bloggers are just like us, they're regular women,

628
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: and um, that kind of thing, you know, I think

629
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,280
Speaker 1: I think that still um kind of blurs blurs the

630
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 1: boundaries a little bit, and it doesn't make it clear. Yeah,

631
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: and it faminely said, you know that this whole notion

632
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 1: of presenting themselves as real or relatable. I mean, that's

633
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 1: that's part of the image too. And so one of

634
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,360
Speaker 1: the things was kind of interesting was how these bloggers

635
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: sought to kind of conceal markers of class or privilege.

636
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: And so one of I don't know if this was

637
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: in the study or just our separate project, um, but

638
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: one of the women we interviewed said, you know, I

639
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 1: have a lot of more expensive things. You know, I

640
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: have my Tory Birch brand, but I like to combine

641
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: this with something from Old Navy because my audience will

642
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 1: find this real or relatable. And so there was really

643
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 1: the sense of against staying within one's crafted persona, which

644
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 1: meant including these moments of candor and realness, but also

645
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: being very very careful to make sure the audience doesn't

646
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,720
Speaker 1: call one out. So, you know that the sense of

647
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: thinking about your audience much the same way that you know,

648
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: media professionals have always thought about their audience. We see

649
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: this same kind of attention to the readers, to the viewers,

650
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: and of course to metrics that we've seen from mainstream

651
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: media for for decades. Were the people you talk to

652
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: very tired because I'm listening to your talk about, you know,

653
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: having to make sure they pair the designer bag with

654
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: the Old Navy shirt. Maybe UM and and keeping an

655
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,720
Speaker 1: eye on metrics. But when you're trying to not only

656
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: present yourself as creative and spontaneous but also genuinely be

657
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 1: creative and spontaneous, but also just constantly be worried about

658
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: numbers and things like that, were these people just very,

659
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 1: very tired. What kind of sense did you get from

660
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: the women you talked to of sort of the cost

661
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: benefit analysis of this kind of work? M H Well,

662
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 1: I think there's a range, and we can probably both

663
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,280
Speaker 1: speak to the different kinds of women that we interviewed. UM.

664
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: I I've pretty much exclusively so far interviewed UM women

665
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: who were doing this professionally. So they this was their blogging,

666
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: was their source of income, They didn't have other jobs. UM,

667
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 1: they were already kind of established in this in this field.

668
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: And for them, I think they, I don't know if

669
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 1: tired is the word. I think I think they work constantly,

670
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: but they at the same time, they felt, UM, sort

671
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: of exhilarated by the opportunity of the many opportunities that

672
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: they've been able to have, and they constantly said that

673
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: they were so they felt very grateful and lucky UM

674
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 1: that they were able to do this kind of work,

675
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: which that can be indicative of a whole other kind

676
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: of um, emotional, uh labor, I guess. But um, but yeah,

677
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 1: I mean I think the constant work is just a

678
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: fact of of life for them. Yeah. Absolutely, um, And

679
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: Assembly said, you know, I've studied professional bloggers, but I've

680
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: also been working on a project where I'm studying blogging aspirants,

681
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: creative aspirants, and those who are hoping to turn this

682
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 1: into a profession. And I got the sense that, you know,

683
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 1: the professionals, like Emily said, did have a lot of gratitude.

684
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 1: But I mean it was incredible the nature and extent

685
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 1: of work. I mean this, this is kind of all

686
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: encompassing these various aspects of one's lives. And I think

687
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 1: we as readers of these blogs have a sense that,

688
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 1: you know, this myth of overnight success. And the ones

689
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: who had gone pro that I spoke with had been

690
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: working full time and doing this part time for four

691
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: and five years until they had enough income that they

692
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 1: were actually able to do this as a living. And

693
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: so for me, it really helped to draw attention to

694
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,399
Speaker 1: the time, the commitment, the labor that goes into this.

695
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: Before you know, someone can quote unquote do what they

696
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: love and get paid. Now, this wasn't something directly addressed

697
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: in the study, but as I was reading it and

698
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,720
Speaker 1: listening to you all talk right now, UM, I'm really

699
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 1: curious to get your sense of whether there is some

700
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,280
Speaker 1: kind of male digital creative analog to this whole fashion

701
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: blogging space, because when I hear about this unpaid labor

702
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 1: that's going on, the blending of professional and personal, the gratitude,

703
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: the sense of feeling so lucky to have the job

704
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: that you do, that we that we do read about

705
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: very often when we think about, you know, women and work,

706
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: And I'm just wondering if there's a space where guys

707
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: are doing a lot of this too, in the digital

708
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 1: entrepreneurial space. So um, you know, I think one of

709
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: the obvious comparisons that I've heard is is sports blogs

710
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: and my colleagues TC core again and Kathleen Coon have

711
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: done some really interesting work on the hope labor of

712
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 1: sports blogs and drawing attention to the the unpaid labor

713
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 1: that these individuals do, and I think there are definitely

714
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: some overlaps. But what I think it's so interesting about

715
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: the fashion blogger set is the feminized nature the fact

716
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 1: that this does drawn kind of this gendered history of

717
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: emotional labor, and you know, you think about what fashion

718
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: and beauty bloggers are doing, it's very much about the body,

719
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 1: it's about the physique, it's it's about these very gendered

720
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 1: components about you know, how to be a female. And so,

721
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: in one sense, um, that's kind of what compelled us

722
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: to do this because when we think of when we

723
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: think of entrepreneurialism or I mean, I guess discourse is

724
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: about entrepreneurialism really much focused on this kind of masculine set.

725
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a very very difficult culture for

726
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 1: women to break into because of kind of the institutional

727
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 1: sexism that's pretty rampant in the text scene. Um, so

728
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 1: we have this masculine notion of entrepreneurialism, and then we

729
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 1: have these women who are succeeding in careers that capitalize

730
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:01,240
Speaker 1: on these notions of femininity, whether it's beauty, there it's motherhood,

731
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: whether it's domesticity. And so what's interesting about the women

732
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,200
Speaker 1: that we were focusing on is they kind of combine

733
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 1: these these two realms and some really interesting ways that

734
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: I think in a lot of ways it is it

735
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: remains still very gendered, and I think what we see

736
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: with fashion bloggers may kind of presage larger trends in

737
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: this whole social media environment. So I think there's definitely

738
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: comparisons between something masculine like sports blogging, but I don't

739
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,439
Speaker 1: think you're gonna see the same enactments of emotional labor

740
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 1: and so forth. Well, you guys mentioned diversity. What role

741
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: does fashion blogger diversity or lack thereof, I guess play

742
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:42,240
Speaker 1: in those broader conversations and trends around fashion and beauty.

743
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: Would you say, well, it's interesting because fashion blogging, UM,

744
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 1: it has always sort of been UM held up as

745
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 1: like this example of democratic participation in the fashion industry UM.

746
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 1: And and you know, any one, it's open to all

747
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: that anyone with any Internet connection can participate that kind

748
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: of thing. And I wouldn't go so far as to

749
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 1: say that is totally false, because there are in some

750
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 1: ways fashion blogging has opened up the fashion industry UM.

751
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: But it's no secret that the fashion industry UM has

752
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 1: uh major issues with UM with diversity and UM, you know,

753
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 1: especially in runway shows and magazine covers and these major

754
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 1: advertising campaigns and blogging. When we you know, when we

755
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 1: looked at the top most influential bloggers, they really weren't

756
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: any different. And that was something that um, I think

757
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: surprises us a little bit. Um that you know, out

758
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 1: of our thirty eight women and our sample, I think

759
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: only three of them were non white. And there were

760
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: also a lot of markers of cultural and economic you know,

761
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,919
Speaker 1: pre existing cultural and especially economic capital that that these

762
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: women had prior to blogging. So the people who are

763
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: at the top um aren't as diverse as um as

764
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 1: you might think, judging from the rhetoric that surrounds fashion blogging. Well,

765
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 1: speaking of you know, the top versus the bottom, what

766
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: does what does that income look like? I see you've

767
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:28,439
Speaker 1: got your top fashion bloggers and people on Instagram. How

768
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: much can they typically expect to bring in and over

769
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 1: the course of a year versus somebody who's maybe more

770
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 1: of a grassroots level blogger. M hm um. So I remember,

771
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,319
Speaker 1: I think it was about a year ago of a

772
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,399
Speaker 1: woman from Italy. Her name is Carre Rainy and she

773
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 1: is the blonde salad um and it came out I

774
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 1: think Harvard Business School did a case study with her

775
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: and found that she's making a staggering eight million dollars

776
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: this year, and within a day I had a bunch

777
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: of people sending me emails and sharing the story because

778
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 1: you know, look at this, this shi Vug kind of

779
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 1: rose to the top and it's making eight million. But

780
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's so important to stress that

781
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:07,720
Speaker 1: that is that it's an exception. It's such an exception,

782
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 1: because I mean, this is a woman, she's she's strikingly beautiful,

783
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:15,720
Speaker 1: she has background in fashion, she went to an Italian

784
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: fashion school, she's been doing it for years, and so

785
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 1: you know, you see someone like that versus the annual

786
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 1: salaries of the women were we spoke with, and you know,

787
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 1: it's hard to get a sense of how much people

788
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: are making. It was it was not something that that

789
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 1: people want to share. But like I said, a lot

790
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 1: of people said they hadn't been doing this for four

791
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 1: or five years before they were actually able to make

792
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: the jump to full time. And so I think in

793
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 1: a lot of cases, um, you know, one woman said

794
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 1: I'm making next to nothing from her affiliate links and

795
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: so forth, So it's it's such a huge disparity. Um.

796
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 1: Side note, I wish you two could have seen the

797
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: look on Caroline Space when you said eight million dollar.

798
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 1: I can imagine, I said, I mentioned that in class

799
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 1: yesterday and had the same response, UM, yeah, and that

800
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 1: it's interesting because I've interviewed, Like Brooks said, bloggers are

801
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: really reluctant to give, you know, exact numbers, so it's

802
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:13,760
Speaker 1: hard for us to get an exact sense. But um,

803
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,439
Speaker 1: from the talking around the issue that we've done, UM,

804
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 1: there are people, there are bloggers out there who maybe

805
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,880
Speaker 1: you wouldn't even expect would be making huge sums of

806
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 1: money and they're actually bringing in, you know, hundreds of

807
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:32,840
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars every year. UM. So it's really arranged,

808
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 1: and it's really wholly dependent on the audience that you're

809
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: able to cultivate for yourself. Are you able to get

810
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:42,800
Speaker 1: your numbers up? Um, both in numbers of followers and

811
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 1: in those engagement metrics, which are pretty much the lifeblood

812
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: of the industry. It's pretty much that's how you get

813
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 1: your branding deals and um, you know, that's how you

814
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 1: make money from affiliate links and all of that. You know,

815
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 1: And so we're thinking, how much does the blogger can

816
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,399
Speaker 1: I give it this this story of someone making eight

817
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: million But but what's also really important to point out

818
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,919
Speaker 1: is blogging is only a portion and sometimes a small

819
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,720
Speaker 1: portion of their actual income. And one young woman I interviewed,

820
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 1: the name was Jesse, and she was telling me that,

821
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 1: you know, blogger as a title is a bit of

822
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:19,959
Speaker 1: a misnomer. She said, I'm more like a full time

823
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:25,760
Speaker 1: freelancer because she does speaking events, she goes on TV

824
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 1: for various promotions, she's doing different initiatives. She still does

825
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 1: freelancing for mainstream publications that she had a connection with

826
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: UM and her earlier career. So even when we say, okay,

827
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: well these people are making you know, whatever salary it

828
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 1: is from their blogging career, I mean that's that's a

829
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:47,280
Speaker 1: small portion of this really kind of complicated career field

830
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: where they are holding several jobs. I mean, you know,

831
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: it's kind of indicative of I guess what it was

832
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 1: called a few years ago, the slash economy where everyone

833
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 1: has you know, two or more positions where they're kind

834
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 1: of doing fun and everyone has a side hustle hustle exactly. Yeah,

835
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 1: I think that. Yeah, the title of entrepreneur is really

836
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 1: something that a lot of the boggers that we interviewed

837
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 1: hold onto UM. They don't necessarily and they don't necessarily

838
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 1: think of themselves. UM, not everybody, but many of them

839
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 1: don't necessarily think of themselves as bloggers. They think of

840
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 1: themselves as entrepreneurs. They have they have a blog, and

841
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 1: then they also do a bunch of other things related

842
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: to that blog. So how is that particular type of

843
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 1: entrepreneurship shaped by what you refer to as sort of

844
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: oversaturation earlier in the episode, um, in terms of more

845
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 1: and more people getting into the game. So, I think

846
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 1: we're at a point where it's really really hard to

847
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: break into this. I mean, it's it's been difficult for

848
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: some time, and I think because of the shift from

849
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 1: kind of the first wave to the second wave or

850
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: the third wave or wherever we want to say we're

851
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 1: at in the in the blog sphere, there are so

852
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 1: many people who are kind of following this pipe dream

853
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: of making a living doing what I love and what

854
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,360
Speaker 1: it means is not just as a difficult to break in,

855
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: but it's even harder for people who have been doing

856
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 1: this for years and years to generate the same kind

857
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 1: of income they once did. Um. One young woman I

858
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 1: spoke with so that she had been doing this for

859
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 1: I think about six or seven years, and she said

860
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 1: December was a really hard month for her, and you know,

861
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 1: I asked what was going on, and she said, you know,

862
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it is because there are

863
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,839
Speaker 1: so many bloggers out there who are willing to work

864
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:30,800
Speaker 1: for free. And she said, you know, I think I

865
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 1: get a sense that they already have existing income so

866
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 1: they can purchase their own clothes rather than have them

867
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 1: gifted to them, and so forth, and and so we

868
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 1: see that this oversaturated market is not just making it

869
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: difficult for new entrants, but it's it's really crowding out

870
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: of a lot of people, especially when we have those

871
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: that can actually afford to work for free. I mean,

872
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:54,320
Speaker 1: this isn't your everyday person who can who can sustain

873
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:58,280
Speaker 1: this lifestyle without some kind of existing form of capital

874
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:02,320
Speaker 1: or something to someone someone to bankroll them. So, knowing

875
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 1: what you know, now, what would you say would be

876
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 1: the best case version of fashion blogging an empire with

877
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 1: a staff, just doing it on the side and being

878
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 1: a legitimate passion project that you do when you have time.

879
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 1: I think for me, I mean this is something that

880
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 1: I talk about with some of my undergraduates as well.

881
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,879
Speaker 1: I think it's it's both important but difficult to make

882
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 1: sure they are fairly compensated. I mean, that's one of

883
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 1: the things that I find so problematic is because the

884
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:36,439
Speaker 1: market is so oversaturated, brands essentially expect people to work

885
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 1: for free. And I've had so many women say, you know,

886
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 1: brands will send me things for for free and say, okay, well,

887
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,320
Speaker 1: you know, just do us a solid and do free promotion.

888
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: But to draw attention to the fact that what they're

889
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,239
Speaker 1: doing does involve an incredible amount of work and it

890
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:50,800
Speaker 1: should be compensated like like any other form of work.

891
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 1: And so I think realizing that and finding places to

892
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,839
Speaker 1: UM join networks and affiliate themselves with more institutional forms

893
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 1: of support to ensure there is a way to get

894
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 1: fairly compensated and not just be doing the same, you know,

895
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 1: buying into this work for exposure narrative that seems to

896
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: sustain so much of the contemporary work economy. Yeah, I

897
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 1: would say that blogging UM seems to be it's kind

898
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 1: of starting to be thought of as you know, the

899
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:25,240
Speaker 1: new way into the industry where you know, the fashion

900
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 1: industry and UM, the magazine industry and things like that.

901
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 1: They've kind of they've trafficked in unpaid internships for a

902
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 1: very long time, and UM and unpaid internships have gotten

903
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:40,240
Speaker 1: a lot more attention over the last few years about

904
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 1: how they can be unfair, they can be expletive all

905
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:48,800
Speaker 1: these things. UM and blogging has the potential to also

906
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 1: go down that route, and so I think, yeah, like

907
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 1: Brooks said, the important thing is to ensure that you're

908
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 1: being fairly compensated for the work that you do. And

909
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 1: that's tough. That's hard for you know, people, especially women

910
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 1: who are maybe late teens, early twenties, mid twenties, they're

911
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:07,359
Speaker 1: trying to get um, you know, build their career as

912
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 1: it can be hard to kind of stand up and

913
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 1: say no, I deserve to be paid. But that would

914
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 1: that would be the ideal. Well, what other types of

915
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 1: advice do you have for for young women or girls,

916
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 1: or or even more established women who are interested in

917
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 1: getting into this line of work Now that we're past

918
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,400
Speaker 1: the recession and we're into a point where it's there's

919
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 1: questions about over saturation, do you have any other advice

920
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 1: for people like this? I think just important to kind

921
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 1: of dispel the myth that this is this very easy

922
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: career and also to dispel the myth that this is

923
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 1: this job that that can you know, it's kind of

924
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:47,879
Speaker 1: an overnight success. I think that's one of the things

925
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:52,800
Speaker 1: that's that's that I've discovered by speaking with these women

926
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 1: is it's an incredible amount of work. Is we've been discussing,

927
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 1: you know, for the past half hour or so, um,

928
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:01,360
Speaker 1: but it's not just the work we see on the screen,

929
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: it's the work we see behind the screens, and kind

930
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: of how that takes a toll in terms of this

931
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 1: this blurring of personal and professional lives, which I think

932
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 1: can be difficult for for women in general. And so

933
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:14,839
Speaker 1: I think to kind of be aware of what this

934
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: career field involved, because I mean that's that's something that

935
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 1: Emily and I have talked about more broadly, is you know,

936
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 1: the creative industries, whether it's fashion, whether it's art, whether

937
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,879
Speaker 1: it's magazine journalism, and of course fashion blogging are kind

938
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: of idealizes these wonderful careers because of the flexibility and

939
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: freedom and so forth. But there's a lot of downsides

940
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,760
Speaker 1: to this careers, um, you know, beyond just the labor involved,

941
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 1: but independent work essentially means you don't have the institutional structure,

942
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 1: so you don't have the benefits. You don't have the

943
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: pay training, and so it's a huge train off, a

944
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 1: huge trade off to to pursue these kind of individualized

945
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 1: things because the so called freedom you're getting is is

946
00:54:55,960 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 1: really giving up any sense of long term stability. Yeah,

947
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 1: and and then no, it's the the fact that you said, like,

948
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 1: you know, we're passed a recession that kind of like

949
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:10,919
Speaker 1: ring struck a chord with me, I guess because while

950
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 1: we aren't in the depths of it um anymore, of course,

951
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 1: the after effects are still still very much exists. And um,

952
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 1: I think that is important for UM, young people who

953
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 1: are looking to enter the industry to know which is

954
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 1: UM that those um, you know, institutionalized support systems that

955
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:41,240
Speaker 1: Brooke mentioned are UM disappearing have disappeared to a large

956
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 1: extent UM and UM yeah that having that sort of

957
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 1: entrepreneurial um mentality is is a requirement, I think, UM yeah,

958
00:55:54,760 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 1: So just just knowing that as important. So thank you

959
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 1: so much to Brook, Aaron Deffie, and Emily Hunt for

960
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 1: speaking with us today about this kind of unexpectedly deep

961
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 1: and super academic topic that is fashion blogging. I had

962
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 1: no idea until really diving into their study and diving

963
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 1: into this conversation with them, all of the different aspects

964
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:31,360
Speaker 1: about this very specific type of online labor basically, and

965
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:34,320
Speaker 1: it'll be interesting to see how the whole thing evolves

966
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 1: in real time as we're interacting with our Instagram feeds

967
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:43,240
Speaker 1: that we may or may not hate follow um because

968
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 1: you do have outlets like Refinery twenty nine that are

969
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 1: already reporting on the death of the Golden age of

970
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,359
Speaker 1: fashion blogging UM. And it'll be interesting to see how

971
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:58,319
Speaker 1: as those brands continue to be more selective about how

972
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 1: much you're going to give influence, answers and the kind

973
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 1: of relationships they're willing to forge because you have so

974
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:07,799
Speaker 1: many up and comers who might be willing to do

975
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 1: more for less, Like what's going to happen to these

976
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: man Repellor esque empires which I'm sure Leandra is going

977
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:18,280
Speaker 1: to be fined, same with Blonde Salad, etcetera. Yeah, and

978
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 1: it'll be interesting to see too how many of maybe

979
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 1: the middle tier or lower tier fashion blogs just essentially

980
00:57:24,640 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 1: become advertisements purely advertisements. I mean, yes, obviously the top

981
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:33,680
Speaker 1: tier people are wearing designer goods, wearing labels that you

982
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 1: know and that you would go out and buy if

983
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 1: you had, you know, a million dollars for a person

984
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: a pair of shoes. But they aren't the ones who

985
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 1: are doing things like featuring co Tex products or whatever

986
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 1: other name brand uh drug store items in their posts.

987
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:53,120
Speaker 1: So I do wonder if those sort of bottom of

988
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 1: the heap fashion bloggers are just going to become nothing

989
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 1: but the new advertising. Well, now, we've really love to

990
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 1: hear from you listeners about all your thoughts on the

991
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:04,400
Speaker 1: whole fashion blogging world. Perhaps you are a fashion or

992
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 1: lifestyle blogger, or photographer, or simply enjoy following all of

993
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 1: these aspirational instagrams. Let us know all of your thoughts.

994
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our

995
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: email address. You can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff

996
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 1: podcast or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple

997
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 1: of messages to share with you. And we come right

998
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: back from a quick break with the holidays almost here.

999
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 1: I don't even have time to go to the post office,

1000
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 1: especially dealing with all the traffic headaches the parking. I

1001
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 1: might run over someone if I fly into a rage,

1002
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:39,560
Speaker 1: and I just feel like I can prevent all that

1003
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 1: by using stamps dot com. Because using stamps dot com

1004
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,800
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1005
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:50,680
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1006
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 1: you would do at the post office minus all that frustration,

1007
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:57,360
Speaker 1: you can do right from your desk by buying and

1008
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 1: printing official US postage using your own computer and printer.

1009
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 1: It's so easy and convenient, which are two big things

1010
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 1: that you'll need to survive the holiday season. So right

1011
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 1: now you can sign up for stamps dot com and

1012
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 1: use our promo code stuff to access a special offer.

1013
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 1: It's a four week trial with a one dollar bonus

1014
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 1: offer that includes postage and a digital scale. So don't wait.

1015
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: Go to stamps dot com before you do anything else.

1016
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 1: Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage

1017
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 1: and type in stuff that's stamps dot com. Enter stuff,

1018
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 1: and now back to the show. Well, I have a

1019
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:43,160
Speaker 1: letter here from Courtney. She says, I'm a relatively recent

1020
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:46,760
Speaker 1: college grad from a video production program. I specialized in

1021
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 1: post production, specifically editing in VFX. Your last episode had

1022
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 1: me getting all sorts of emotional on my drive home

1023
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: from work. I realized VFX might seem like an odd

1024
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 1: thing to get emotional over, but it was so reassuring

1025
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 1: to hear that all the things I felt while studying

1026
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 1: in my program weren't ridiculous, considering I only had one

1027
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 1: other girl in most of my classes with me and

1028
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:08,760
Speaker 1: we didn't really talk much. In my program as a whole,

1029
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:10,760
Speaker 1: there were maybe four women, and in most of my

1030
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 1: three D animation, compositing, et cetera classes, there was really

1031
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: only the previously mentioned one other girl. I feel like

1032
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 1: I was lucky because one of my primary male professors

1033
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 1: was incredibly encouraging to us ladies and very much wanted

1034
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 1: me to move on into the industry, but I knew

1035
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 1: it wasn't going to happen. Around the start of my

1036
01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 1: third year, most of the professors made it very clear

1037
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:32,640
Speaker 1: that unless we, as professionals in the film industry were

1038
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 1: willing to dedicate insane amounts of time to our careers,

1039
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:38,800
Speaker 1: we would absolutely not make it. And he wasn't being dramatic,

1040
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:41,040
Speaker 1: It's true. I felt like the least I could do

1041
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 1: by the time I was having doubts was to complete

1042
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 1: my program, and I graduated summa cum laude in my class.

1043
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 1: I then proceeded to drop my dreams of getting into

1044
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 1: film and VFX professionally and get a steady job in

1045
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 1: a completely unrelated field that paid my bills and crazy

1046
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 1: amounts of student debt. I knew that one day I

1047
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 1: wanted to start a family, and that it just wasn't

1048
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,600
Speaker 1: going to happen considering mine and my fiancy's financial status.

1049
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 1: It's a huge bummer because honestly, most of the guys

1050
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 1: I went to school with were pretty cool, but there

1051
01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 1: was just this constant feeling of not belonging, like I'd

1052
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 1: barged into a frat party and the guys they were

1053
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 1: totally digging the female company, but not in a professional way.

1054
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 1: That feeling for four plus years, plus the doubts that

1055
01:01:20,720 --> 01:01:22,920
Speaker 1: I could juggle a family life and insane amounts of

1056
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:25,600
Speaker 1: time at work just made me drop it. After graduating,

1057
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 1: I've always felt badly about this, like I just gave

1058
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:30,120
Speaker 1: up because no doubt I could have made a career

1059
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:32,439
Speaker 1: out of it. I guess mental health and a want

1060
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 1: for a family trumps those dreams, which is a really

1061
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 1: crummy situation for a lady to be put in. That's

1062
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 1: definitely the case for women in many fields of work. Anyway,

1063
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 1: thank you for shining some light on an issue a

1064
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 1: lot of people don't really think much of and also

1065
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:48,600
Speaker 1: for tuting the SFX VFX horn. So many people don't

1066
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 1: realize the crazy amounts of work and skill would go

1067
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 1: into it and how widely used it is in most

1068
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:56,080
Speaker 1: visual media. You guys rock and your podcast gives me

1069
01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 1: life on my super dull, super long commute to and

1070
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 1: from work. Well, thank you, Courtney. Well, I've got a

1071
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 1: letter here from Tricia, and she writes, I listened to

1072
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 1: your episode on the visual effects gender gap and was

1073
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:10,960
Speaker 1: so pleased you covered it. I'm in a different field, however,

1074
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 1: I could relate strongly with many of the points made.

1075
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 1: I work as a designer in the advertising industry and

1076
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:18,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to school for my m f A and

1077
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 1: game development. Both are fields that are mainly male centric.

1078
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:24,920
Speaker 1: In fact, in regard to my video game classes, it's

1079
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:28,439
Speaker 1: not unusual if I'm one of the few or only girl.

1080
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 1: There are sometimes gaps between straight males and everyone else.

1081
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 1: Seems to be predominant in every creative field. Men are

1082
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 1: creative because they possess some sort of other worldly inspiration

1083
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:43,000
Speaker 1: and intelligence. Meanwhile, women are creative because their emotional and

1084
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 1: touchy feeling. The gap of how society views creativity among genders.

1085
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 1: Probably goes back to the age of fine art, where

1086
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 1: male artists take the center stage because it was viewed

1087
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: as a trade craft and women, for the most part,

1088
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:58,000
Speaker 1: couldn't work in those times. I think it's always important

1089
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:01,080
Speaker 1: to talk about inequality struggles among creative fields because we

1090
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:03,640
Speaker 1: play a much more direct role in the entertainment industry

1091
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 1: and have a responsibility at changing the messages we put

1092
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:10,200
Speaker 1: out into the masses. Anyway, I enjoy listening to the

1093
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 1: both of you and look forward to the next one.

1094
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 1: So thanks Tricia, and thanks to everybody who's written into us.

1095
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot Com is our

1096
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:21,360
Speaker 1: email address and for links to all of our social

1097
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 1: media as well as all of our videos, blogs and podcasts,

1098
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 1: including this one. With links. To learn more about Brooke

1099
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:32,680
Speaker 1: and Emily's research, head on over to stuff Mom Never

1100
01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:39,160
Speaker 1: Told You dot com for moral thiss and thousands of

1101
01:03:39,160 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com.