1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,600
Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:10,000
Speaker 2: We were talking about, you know, the possibility that Sir Hans,

3
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:14,640
Speaker 2: Sirhan was programmed to be an assassin or programmed to

4
00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,360
Speaker 2: be a patsy, and you were suggesting or asserting that

5
00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:23,880
Speaker 2: in order for whoever these shadowy figures were that would

6
00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,159
Speaker 2: do something like this, you know, to pick someone like

7
00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,600
Speaker 2: Sir Han Surhan, they would have known how to have

8
00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:33,400
Speaker 2: known about you know, his the trauma that he suffered

9
00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:38,560
Speaker 2: back in in Jordan or Palestine from a very young age.

10
00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:43,919
Speaker 2: So at all, it's very unlikely. Also the idea of

11
00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,479
Speaker 2: creating these I don't know, super soldiers or programmed assassins.

12
00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,120
Speaker 2: They just didn't have the sophistication to do that because

13
00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,000
Speaker 2: while they might be able to implant other memories or

14
00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,320
Speaker 2: other thoughts, they couldn't get the subject to do what

15
00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,840
Speaker 2: they wanted them to do. Is that have I basically

16
00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:04,000
Speaker 2: summed that up correctly?

17
00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,760
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, he did a good job with that. The

18
00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:15,040
Speaker 3: difficulty after I reviewed the research on hypno program people

19
00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:20,200
Speaker 3: is that, as I said with doctor Cameron, with the

20
00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:25,600
Speaker 3: studies at Stanford, with the studies at Vacaville, diagnostic center,

21
00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:31,640
Speaker 3: they really couldn't produce the directionality or the implanning of

22
00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:36,880
Speaker 3: thoughts that would lead to the creation of a person

23
00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:42,880
Speaker 3: that they wanted to create. Cameron was especially disappointed because

24
00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:48,640
Speaker 3: he although he could ablate thoughts and he destroyed a

25
00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:53,400
Speaker 3: lot of patients short term and remote memory. A lot

26
00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:58,760
Speaker 3: of patients actually later sued him because of his malpractice.

27
00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:04,000
Speaker 3: But he really couldn't replace the thoughts with his psychic

28
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:09,280
Speaker 3: driving program, even though he tried for a long time.

29
00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:14,480
Speaker 3: The issue in terms of if it was possible, it

30
00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:18,400
Speaker 3: would certainly take months and months of this kind of

31
00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:25,240
Speaker 3: programming and a course of sensory deprivation where the individual

32
00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:30,760
Speaker 3: would be sequestered somewhere, let's say at McGill University in

33
00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:35,880
Speaker 3: Canada for months at a time. When Cameron engaged in

34
00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:45,160
Speaker 3: his thought destruction program, he had these patients deconditioned, deprogrammed,

35
00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:50,280
Speaker 3: and de patterned for six months to a year in

36
00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:56,799
Speaker 3: order to achieve his thought reduction programer thought elimination program,

37
00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,520
Speaker 3: and then his failed thought replacement program really didn't work

38
00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:07,480
Speaker 3: or produce a person that he could say what was

39
00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,960
Speaker 3: now self directed as he wanted that person to be

40
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,600
Speaker 3: with the marsh case that I illustrated before who or

41
00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,960
Speaker 3: Marsh didn't really know what happened to him, but he

42
00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:25,720
Speaker 3: was programmed by a fellow prisoner who was a hypnotist,

43
00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:29,760
Speaker 3: and he arrived in southern California with no understanding of

44
00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:35,240
Speaker 3: how he got there with with Sir An when he

45
00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:41,280
Speaker 3: saw doctor Brown, he reported that doctor Brown saw him

46
00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:48,600
Speaker 3: switch into a distinctly different personality in terms of a

47
00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:54,720
Speaker 3: flashback that only under hypnosis could he elicit this individual

48
00:03:54,840 --> 00:04:02,040
Speaker 3: personality that was the personality that he thought was responsible

49
00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:07,320
Speaker 3: for killing Robert Kennedy. He called he called this particular

50
00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:13,680
Speaker 3: situation or mental status range mode where Sir Hand would

51
00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,359
Speaker 3: mimic having a gun in his hand like a flashback

52
00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,760
Speaker 3: when he was at the firing range, when actually he

53
00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:28,000
Speaker 3: was firing live bullets at Robert Kennedy. As you mentioned,

54
00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:33,440
Speaker 3: not only was Robert Kennedy assassinated, but Paul Schrade was

55
00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,720
Speaker 3: standing next to him. He was wounded as well as

56
00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,600
Speaker 3: four other people. So there were six people that were

57
00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:44,560
Speaker 3: wounded there. There's a a general theory concerning the number

58
00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:49,840
Speaker 3: of bullets. There's acoustics stuff, uh recording more than more

59
00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:54,320
Speaker 3: than eight shots, which which is beyond my UH my

60
00:04:54,520 --> 00:05:00,480
Speaker 3: pay grade to understand how acoustics can account for these shots.

61
00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,800
Speaker 3: My theory is essentially the same as doctor Diamonds, Doctor Brown's,

62
00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:09,440
Speaker 3: and the other doctors who seem to agree that there

63
00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:14,520
Speaker 3: was a disassociated state that Sir Hand had created over

64
00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:19,440
Speaker 3: the years as a repository for this anger that he

65
00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:23,760
Speaker 3: assimilated from the people, very people who persecuted him. So

66
00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:29,880
Speaker 3: that's the Stockholm syndrome or the identification with the aggressor,

67
00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,880
Speaker 3: and that's my particular theory.

68
00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:39,719
Speaker 2: Okay. So then the question arises, why fifty six years later, is,

69
00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,240
Speaker 2: for example, you know, John Hinckley, who attempted to assassinate

70
00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,279
Speaker 2: Ronald Reagan has been out of prison for a number

71
00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,440
Speaker 2: of years, maybe I don't know, ten years or something

72
00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,080
Speaker 2: like that. Why is Sir Hans Sir Hand still behind bars?

73
00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,520
Speaker 2: Is he, in your estimation as a forensic psychologist, still

74
00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:59,480
Speaker 2: a threat? I mean, if he has this dissociative disorder

75
00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,880
Speaker 2: that doesn't just go away, presumably could he be triggered

76
00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,040
Speaker 2: into another violent act.

77
00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,760
Speaker 3: Now? Not after the passage of time and the amount

78
00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,720
Speaker 3: of therapy that he's undergone for fifty six years in

79
00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:19,159
Speaker 3: prison is highly unlikely, especially with the reviews he's had

80
00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:28,080
Speaker 3: by the forensic psychologists who were consistently evaluating him for

81
00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:32,880
Speaker 3: fifty six years. There's no evidence that he has any

82
00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:40,040
Speaker 3: violent tendencies at this time. My view is that he's

83
00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,039
Speaker 3: being held now in San Diego in a state prison

84
00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:50,159
Speaker 3: as purely as a political prisoner, based on the California

85
00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:56,080
Speaker 3: Governor Newsom's belief that he is not remorseful for his

86
00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:04,080
Speaker 3: particular act. Interesting enough, now his his appeals attorneys are

87
00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,440
Speaker 3: trying to go to the file with the California Supreme

88
00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:12,520
Speaker 3: Court to say that he was with a rid of

89
00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,240
Speaker 3: habeas corpus. Why is he being held when the when

90
00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:22,480
Speaker 3: the Parole Board on at least one occasion approved his parole,

91
00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,200
Speaker 3: So it seems inconsistent with all the findings that he's

92
00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:31,280
Speaker 3: still being held in prison. Leslie Van Houghton of the

93
00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:37,440
Speaker 3: Manson family fame. She was paroled earlier this year after

94
00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:42,440
Speaker 3: she committed a violent murder. She murdered Rosemary la Bianca,

95
00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:48,920
Speaker 3: stabbed her fourteen times in the back, extremely violent act.

96
00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,200
Speaker 3: Governor Newsom had no problem releasing her. I just think

97
00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,600
Speaker 3: that that Sir hand is a is a hot potato,

98
00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:06,480
Speaker 3: and the even though RFK Junior believes that Sir Hans

99
00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:07,600
Speaker 3: should be paroled.

100
00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:13,840
Speaker 2: Yes, right, Does Sir hann I believe he has another

101
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:15,800
Speaker 2: parole hearing coming up in this year?

102
00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:16,000
Speaker 1: Is it?

103
00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:16,440
Speaker 3: Is it?

104
00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:17,080
Speaker 2: Next month?

105
00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,000
Speaker 3: He has a parole hearing coming up. But there's also

106
00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,480
Speaker 3: the legitimacy of why he's being held. That's the habeas

107
00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:31,000
Speaker 3: corpus issue, and the Supreme Court of California they're going

108
00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,840
Speaker 3: to file his attorneys are going to file with the

109
00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:38,800
Speaker 3: state to say that he's being held illegitimately more or

110
00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,440
Speaker 3: less as a political prisoner and not somebody who is

111
00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,439
Speaker 3: a danger to future danger to society.

112
00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,480
Speaker 2: If you were to appear at that parole hearing, what

113
00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,400
Speaker 2: would you tell the board in your capacity as a

114
00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:53,559
Speaker 2: forensic psychologist?

115
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,800
Speaker 3: There is no empirical evidence based on a long string

116
00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:04,800
Speaker 3: of testing and assessment in the in the prison system

117
00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:10,280
Speaker 3: by the psychologist who were who are hired to assess

118
00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:15,719
Speaker 3: the suitability for these people to achieve parole. There there

119
00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,200
Speaker 3: is not one assessment that says he's a danger anymore.

120
00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:24,640
Speaker 3: When you when you look at violent behavior, it runs

121
00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:29,880
Speaker 3: along the same graph as drug behavior. The older you get,

122
00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:34,880
Speaker 3: the less frequency you're going to have of people acting

123
00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,560
Speaker 3: out and or using drugs. So as you get older,

124
00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:48,600
Speaker 3: these kinds of of inclinations towards aggressive behavior disappear. With

125
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:53,760
Speaker 3: with with sir hand that he did not one of

126
00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,760
Speaker 3: his reviews shows that he has any any kind of

127
00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,359
Speaker 3: a dangerous personality.

128
00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:06,520
Speaker 2: H Does he understand you think that he according to

129
00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,960
Speaker 2: your research, that he was in fact responsible, but that

130
00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:16,559
Speaker 2: because he had had this dissociative disorder. Has he acknowledged

131
00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,439
Speaker 2: that to your mind? Does he understand that's what happened?

132
00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, he said. Let me read you a quote that

133
00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,760
Speaker 3: he said. He said that I didn't know I had

134
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,160
Speaker 3: a gun at the time. There was a target like

135
00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,760
Speaker 3: flashing in my face. I thought I was at the

136
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,800
Speaker 3: target range. I could be fantasizing or dreaming that I

137
00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:39,720
Speaker 3: was at a gun range. I thought that I was

138
00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,559
Speaker 3: at the gun range, and actually I was shooting at

139
00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,000
Speaker 3: I didn't know I was shooting at a person, let

140
00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:50,800
Speaker 3: alone Bobby Kennedy. So that addresses the amnesia part of it,

141
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:55,440
Speaker 3: that the separate personality was the one that was responsible

142
00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:02,120
Speaker 3: for the homicide, not his ordinary person. As doctor Diamond said,

143
00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:10,200
Speaker 3: you mentioned an interesting point before concerning his diary. Yes,

144
00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,600
Speaker 3: the diary is and I'm glad you brought that up

145
00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:19,160
Speaker 3: to the diary is really a very pivotal part of

146
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,880
Speaker 3: this particular case, especially leading to the conviction. In the

147
00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:28,840
Speaker 3: diary that that's been labeled as as RFK must die.

148
00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:34,840
Speaker 3: There are many inculpatory statements, guilty statements that he writes

149
00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:43,800
Speaker 3: about Kennedy. This is pre assassination, which which necessitates premeditation

150
00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,800
Speaker 3: or supports the notion of premeditation and planning. In the diary,

151
00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:53,800
Speaker 3: he makes many references concerning RFK must die. If he

152
00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,360
Speaker 3: was standing in front of me, I would blast him.

153
00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,600
Speaker 3: Statements like this that were allowed into evidence at the

154
00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:07,560
Speaker 3: trial by the prosecution. The judge allowed this evidence several

155
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,960
Speaker 3: pages of the diary. The diary runs twenty to thirty

156
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:18,040
Speaker 3: pages of sometimes incomprehensible writing, but the judge allowed twenty

157
00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,320
Speaker 3: a few pages of the diary into evidence to be

158
00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:26,080
Speaker 3: used against against Sir Hand. When the jury read these

159
00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:31,160
Speaker 3: particular passages, they couldn't really fit together the pieces that

160
00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,800
Speaker 3: they were not written by the ordinary sur hand. They

161
00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:40,760
Speaker 3: were written by the altered sur hand the defense, and

162
00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,679
Speaker 3: this is the key one of the key mistakes from

163
00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,680
Speaker 3: the trial. The defense decided that this was a great

164
00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:54,480
Speaker 3: idea to present this information of the premeditation and these

165
00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:59,880
Speaker 3: negative statements, so they admitted the entire diary into evidence.

166
00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:05,319
Speaker 3: Their theory being that these statements were so bizarre it

167
00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,960
Speaker 3: would substantiate that Sir Hand was schizophrenic. It had a

168
00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:15,079
Speaker 3: completely paradoxical effect that Jerry said, this is proof positive

169
00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:22,040
Speaker 3: that this guy planned, premeditated, carried through, and murdered Robert Kennedy.

170
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,320
Speaker 3: He's going to the gas chamber. So the defense just

171
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:33,080
Speaker 3: made a really stupid air that's redundant. The defense made

172
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:37,360
Speaker 3: an air by allowing the preponderance of the diary into

173
00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,959
Speaker 3: evidence when they didn't have to. They needed an alternative explanation,

174
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:48,840
Speaker 3: which was Sir Hand's references to the diary consistently throughout

175
00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,440
Speaker 3: the trial transcript. The trial transcript that I read reads

176
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:58,400
Speaker 3: about six thousand pages. In his hit statements, many times

177
00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,840
Speaker 3: he says, I don't know about this statement. I don't

178
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,640
Speaker 3: understand that. I didn't write that. That's not me who

179
00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,520
Speaker 3: wrote that. Did somebody plant that in there? So in

180
00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,480
Speaker 3: his ordinary state, he's completely unaware of what the altered

181
00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,520
Speaker 3: personality did, which is very similar to what happened in

182
00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,240
Speaker 3: the Three Phases of Eve where Eve Black, who was

183
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:29,120
Speaker 3: the evil twin was engaging in lots of questionable promiscuity behavior,

184
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:34,440
Speaker 3: and Eve White, the naive ordinary person, was completely unaware

185
00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,520
Speaker 3: of it and shocked when she found out that these

186
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,520
Speaker 3: activities were going on within the same person.

187
00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:47,720
Speaker 2: If you were sitting across from Sir hanser Hand, and

188
00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:49,920
Speaker 2: I don't know if if you had any access to

189
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,200
Speaker 2: him when you were writing the book, but what would

190
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,680
Speaker 2: you ask him? What would be the number one question

191
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:56,280
Speaker 2: you'd want to ask Sir hanser Hand.

192
00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:01,360
Speaker 3: The number one question would be too hypnotize him, first

193
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:06,320
Speaker 3: of all, to take him back in time to the

194
00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:11,200
Speaker 3: the scene of the crime, and to to inform him

195
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:16,760
Speaker 3: or to to to bring him along into the notion

196
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:23,720
Speaker 3: of a disassociated personality, and that in his in his

197
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,800
Speaker 3: ordinary state of awareness, he had no understanding of what happened.

198
00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:33,120
Speaker 3: And he's probably still confused as to what is the

199
00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:38,480
Speaker 3: real ideology or the cause of me engaging this behavior.

200
00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,040
Speaker 3: He says, yes, I was there, Yes they caught me,

201
00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,080
Speaker 3: Yes I had a gun, but I don't remember anything

202
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,080
Speaker 3: because he was in a in an altered state when

203
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,160
Speaker 3: he committed this particular crime. I think that would be

204
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:57,640
Speaker 3: terribly insightful for him to be able to via hypnosis,

205
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,080
Speaker 3: to be able to to dis cover the roots of

206
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:07,320
Speaker 3: this this second personality, and that the second personality is

207
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,280
Speaker 3: the one who cru who shot Kennedy.

208
00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,040
Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at

209
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,000
Speaker 1: one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to coastam

210
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:19,120
Speaker 1: dot com for more