1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Hi, everybody. I'm Katie Couric and this is next question, 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: Mr Chairman, Senator Thurman, Members of the Committee. My name 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: is Anita F. Hill and I'm a professor. This fall 4 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: marks the thirtieth anniversary of the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings. 5 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: I was introduced to now Judge Thomas by a mutual friend. 6 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: On October eleven, Anita Hill testified before Congress that the 7 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: Supreme Court nominee had sexually harassed her when they worked 8 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: together at two government agencies a decade before. What happened 9 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: next and telling the world about it are the two 10 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 1: most difficult things experiences of my life. It was a 11 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: truly historic moment. It's hard to even imagine now given 12 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: the past couple of years and the advent of Me Too. 13 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: But before Anita Hill shared her d tailed testimony in 14 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: front of an all white male panel, the term sexual harassment, 15 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: let alone the act of it, had never really been 16 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: talked about publicly and in front of a television audience. 17 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: That was a turning point. It brought sexual harassment into 18 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: the national conversation in a way it had not been before. 19 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: Countless women, I think, identified with the experiences that Anita 20 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: Hill spoke about very movingly, very powerfully at the hearing. 21 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 1: Debor Turkheimer is a law professor at Northwestern University. She's 22 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: also the author of the new book Credible, Why We 23 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: Doubt Accusers and Protect Abusers. Way back when sexual harassment 24 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: wasn't even a term that anyone recognized. It had to 25 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: be coined before there could be this common vernacular, and 26 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: people could then begin to identify their experiences as experiences 27 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: that other people had to other, particularly women in the workplace, 28 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: particularly vulnerable, marginalized women in the workplace, that this was 29 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: something that wasn't idiosyncratic, it was patterned and and there 30 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: were commonalities to it. And so this consciousness raising is 31 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: a really important aspect of of sort of what feminism is. 32 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: And then when you have a high profile event like 33 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 1: the Anita Hill testimony, and you have the the the 34 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: entire country transfixed and processing and reaching you know, different conclusions, 35 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: but nevertheless focused on this as an issue, I think 36 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: it does really galvanized new understandings and important conversations. After 37 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,679 Speaker 1: a brief discussion of work, he would turn the conversation 38 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: to a discussion of sexual matters. His conversations were very 39 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: vivid on several occasions, Thomas tomy graphically of his own 40 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: sexual prowess. This was a really important step in the 41 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: direction of societal acknowledgement that this is a problem, and 42 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: a sense on the part of sexual harassment victims that 43 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: this doesn't have to be tolerated, that this isn't something 44 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: that is normalized. It's not something that's okay. Now that 45 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that victims will necessarily come forward. There are 46 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: lots of reasons why that's going to be difficult. But 47 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: more so than before her testimony, I think victims of 48 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: workplace harassment understood that this was not okay. How reliable 49 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: is your testimony in October on events that occurred eight 50 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: and years ago? How sure can you expect this committee 51 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: to be on the accuracy of your statement. I guess 52 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: one really does have to understand something about the nature 53 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 1: of sexual harassment. Um, it is very difficult for people 54 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: to come forward with these She came forward having worked 55 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: at the e o C, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission 56 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: under Clarence Thomas, having, she said, experienced some fairly serious 57 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: sexual harassment at his hands. He commented on what I 58 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: was wearing in terms of whether it made me more 59 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: or less sexually attractive? Who has put pubic hair on 60 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: my coat? He referred to the size of his own 61 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: penis as being larger than normal, and he also spoke 62 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: on some occasions of the pleasure. So when Anita Hill 63 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: came forward and told her story, she was treated horribly. 64 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 1: She was treated horribly by the senators who were responsible 65 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 1: for conducting these hearings. It is appropriate to ask Professor 66 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: Hill anything any member wishes to ask her. Are you 67 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: a scorned woman? Do you have have anything to gain 68 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: by coming here is to plumb the depths of her credibility? 69 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: Are you interested in writing a book? You testify this 70 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: morning that the most embarrassing question involved this is not 71 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: too bad women's large breast. That's the word we use 72 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: all the time. The witness did not say anything to 73 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: the FBI about the described size of his penis, the 74 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: description of the movie Long Dong Silver. You are not 75 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: now drawing a conclusion the judge Thomas sexually harassed you. Yes, 76 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: I am joining that conclusion that I don't understand. Pardon 77 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: me that I don't understand. This is an example of 78 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,799 Speaker 1: the credibility complex kicked into high gear. This was someone 79 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: who was coming forward against a very powerful man who 80 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: was seen by many as having an entitlement to this 81 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: Supreme Court justiceship, to having an entitlement to sit on 82 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: the highest court of the land for the for the 83 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: rest of his of his career. And nothing was going 84 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: to disrupt that. The status quo was was not going 85 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: to be upended. Even when someone with the I would 86 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: say authority on the credibility of an Anita Hill came forward, 87 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: it wasn't going to change the course of events. Clarence 88 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: Thomas was of course confirmed to the Supreme Court since 89 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: as a justice today, and that experience was so difficult 90 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 1: for many Americans to watch, for many women, in particular 91 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: women who had experienced their own workplace harassment and women 92 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: who had just lived in the world and felt this 93 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:50,600 Speaker 1: to be a very familiar experience. I think I just 94 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: felt deeply wounded on her behalf. When I recently sat 95 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: down with Anita Hill, she told me that she heard 96 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: from those women men. When I testified, this woman wrote 97 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: me and said, there will be waves of women behind you. 98 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: I immediately started hearing from thousands of people. I mean, 99 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: the letters were coming in in flood, and those women 100 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: changed the course of her life. I thought after the 101 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: hearing that I could just get back to my life, 102 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: and that wasn't possible. It was not going to be 103 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: the same. Coming up my conversation with Anita Hill on 104 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: her thirty year work to engender violence, her new book, 105 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: and the lasting impact of her testimony thirty years later. 106 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: I'm close up this morning the Clarence Thomas nomination. When 107 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: the Ane to Hill Clarence Thomas controversy unfolded in September 108 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 1: of nine, I was the newly appointed co anchor on 109 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: the Today Show. The Senate is to vote tonight on 110 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: whether Thomas should get a lifetime appointment to the Supreme Court, 111 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: but a charge that Thomas sexually harassed one of his 112 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: employees a decade ago has fueled new last minute debate 113 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: over the nomination. The Clarence Thomas nomination had seemed all 114 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: that assured until rumors of his past behavior spurred a 115 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: federal investigation. Behind the scenes of the public hearings, Anita 116 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: Hill was privately interviewed by the FBI, and her statement 117 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: was leaked to the press. On October seven, she came 118 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: forward publicly and said she would testify. I interviewed her 119 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: on October eight. Why do you think we're not hearing 120 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 1: about this or we didn't hear about this until the 121 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: eleventh hour? What took so long from that date until 122 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: these charges actually surfaced publicly. I don't believe that, um, 123 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: they were necessarily taken seriously. I think this is part 124 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: of what the frustration that I'm experiencing, and then a 125 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: lot of women are experiencing that these kinds of UH 126 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: claims and are in statements are not taking seriously. Anita 127 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: health testimony forced the country to confront sexual harassment, to 128 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: take accusations seriously for the first time. When I sat 129 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: down recently with Anita, we talked about how far we 130 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: have and haven't come all these years later. I remember 131 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: covering your testimony and it was really the first time 132 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: people talked openly and understood what sexual harassment was about. 133 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: And since then, whether you're talking about me too, and 134 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: the reckoning that took place in the last three years, 135 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: it has really gotten to be out in the open. 136 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: And yet it feels we haven't made enough progress. Why 137 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: do you think with so much awareness we haven't made 138 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: more progress. One of the things that we do very 139 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: often is we depersonalize it. We you know, we talk 140 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: about the numbers, you know one and four college students 141 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: will be sexually harassed or assault and account college campuses, 142 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: And what we should be saying is that we send 143 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:34,599 Speaker 1: their children to school every year in September, and in reality, 144 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: we know that that daughter or that niece, or that 145 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: cousin or sister is very likely to become a victim 146 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: of sexual harassment or assault in that space. We know 147 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: that in the numbers are even worse for those who 148 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: don't go to college. But people want to depersonalize that. 149 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 1: They don't want to think about the fact that when 150 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: you talk about ten million people per year who will 151 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: experience intimate partner violence, people don't want to think about 152 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: the fact that with a number that large, you're talking 153 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 1: about people who are in York community. You're talking about 154 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: somebody who maybe waits on you at a restaurant, or 155 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: somebody who's teaching your children in school. So these are 156 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: people who you know could be somebody in your own family. 157 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: So we we depersonalize it, and because of that, we 158 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: pretend not to see it. The other reason I think 159 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: that we haven't done more about it is because we have, 160 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: over the course of our lives, been groomed to believe 161 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: that it's not such a big problem. Um. Well, we 162 00:11:55,480 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: hear people tell girls, especially you know, that behavior that 163 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: they find that makes them uncomfortable or find even offensive 164 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: isn't really that bad. It's not so bad. Deal with 165 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: it and deal with it, or you know, you know, 166 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: boys do it because they like it, or that's just 167 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: what boys do. And sometimes that language can escalate that 168 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: it's not just deal with it, or it's more you know, 169 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: if you if you don't shut your mouth, you're going 170 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: to get in trouble. So there are ways that we 171 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: prepare not only girls just to live with this problem 172 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: and not complain, we're also preparing abusers to accept their 173 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: own bad behavior and expect that other people will tolerate it. 174 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: And what we heard when we got those nineteen million 175 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: tweets um with me too, with the hashtag too, was 176 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: that it is a problem. It is a significant problem. 177 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: It's a harmful problem, and it's something that women and 178 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: men are living with. Your book is called Believing, Our 179 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: thirty year Journey to End Gender Violence. It's your third book. 180 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: It's a real representation of you and your work It's 181 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: part memoir but also part legal and social analysis and 182 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: a lot of personal accounts of women you've met over 183 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: the years. Why write this book now, Anita, was the 184 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: thirty year anniversary the impetus for you to say, let's 185 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: look back on our progress, let's tell the stories of 186 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: the women I've gotten to know through these years. It 187 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: wasn't just the anniversary, although I was mindful of the anniversary, 188 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: but more importantly, it was the thirty years between and 189 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: my testimony and where we are now. This was an 190 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: opportunity to look at all of the things that have 191 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: happened in those thirty years, and you know, take stock 192 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 1: of where we are. And I'm concluding, of course, that 193 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: we have a long way to go. Yet I really 194 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: am conceding that we have come far in thirty years. 195 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: So why now, Well, because we've got evidence that really 196 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: gender violence is at a toxic level when you take 197 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: into account this huge range of behaviors that happened under 198 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: the guise of of gender violence. All there are so 199 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: many different facets of it. I mean, it ranges from 200 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: bullying and harassment and elementary schools to bullying in harassment 201 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: and workplaces. It ranges from sexual harassment and assaults and 202 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: rape on our streets. It includes intimate partner violence in 203 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: our homes, and the phrases don't even capture the experience 204 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: as fully. But when you calculate the range, when you 205 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: calculate the human cost and the harm that's being done 206 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: to us as a society, then what you realize is 207 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: that we have this enormous problem that needs to be 208 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: called out as a public crisis. When Me too happened, 209 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: I'm just curious what it was like watching it unfold 210 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: from your perspective. I have been dealing with this not 211 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: simply through my own experience, but through the experience of 212 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: thousands of others. I really, honestly was just grateful that 213 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: people were coming forward and talking about it and that 214 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: finally we could, you know, convince people that this was 215 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: a real problem, that this wasn't just a few bad 216 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: apples or a few people who were too oversensitive, um, 217 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: that this was a problem that's a social problem, is 218 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: a stomach problem, and that it should be dealt with 219 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: it that way, because you know, even up until in 220 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: some cases and even today, you have people say, you know, 221 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: this problem really doesn't exist, it's made up for whatever 222 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: political reasons, economic reasons that it doesn't exist, when in 223 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: fact we know all of the facts point to the 224 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: reality of it. I still today here women and men 225 00:16:55,600 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: supporting people who behaved a certain way workplace by saying 226 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 1: women through themselves at this person. A lot of these 227 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: kind of familiar defenses surface, And I'm curious what you 228 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: think when you hear that, you know it's it's another 229 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: form of denial. I think what it comes down to 230 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: is our unwillingness to act, our fear of acting, and 231 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: really our desire to to uh prioritize the lives and 232 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: experiences of men over the lives and experiences of women. 233 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: And I think those will continue. Again, that's still part 234 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: of the cultural problem. But but in fact, you know, 235 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: there are also some systemic problems because in some ways 236 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: the culture has been built into our systems. So we 237 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:03,199 Speaker 1: we put an extraordinarily high burden on victims, even in 238 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: elementary schools, to solve their own problems, to be the 239 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: ones that tell the administrators exactly what's happening, when it's happening, 240 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: why it was wrong, and to be able in some 241 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: of the sense, to prove that they have been bullied 242 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: or harassed and or to prove that they deserve to 243 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: have some attention brought to it. And the problems aren't 244 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 1: just in schools. The problems the systemic problems, because it's 245 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 1: in the criminal justice system throughout. When you take the 246 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: problem of rape and sexual assault, you know the fact 247 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: that we have rape kits that our backlog that after 248 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 1: an individual goes through the the grueling process of having 249 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: an examination done and participated in this effort to find 250 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: out who her assailant is, that then they get put 251 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: on the show and then warehoused. I mean that shows 252 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 1: us how broken the system is. When I started out 253 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: this book, I thought, Wow, this is really kind of 254 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: like boiling the ocean because there's so much out there. 255 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 1: I thought about you many times over the years, and 256 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: one of those times was in in two thousand and 257 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: eighteen during Christine blassie Ford's testimony against Brett Kavanaugh. There 258 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: were many differences, but some similarities. Were you shocked by 259 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: the familiaria of the event and were you expecting a 260 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: different outcome? I wanted a different outcome. I wanted a process. 261 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: I wanted, you know, something that wasn't even possible from 262 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: the beginning. I would have wanted her to have a 263 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: place to complain. She didn't have a place to complain. 264 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: I wanted her to have a thorough investigation. What we 265 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: had was one that was deliberately limited by President Trump then, 266 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: who was a sponsor who had invested interest in Kavanaugh 267 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 1: being confirmed. You know, I wanted, of course, I wanted 268 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: a different outcome, But I think that the country would 269 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 1: have been better off even if the outcome had remained 270 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: the same, if there had been a different way for 271 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 1: her to come forward and to be heard. And that's 272 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: really what I wanted. Um, that's not what we got. However, 273 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: that wasn't the end of it. And we do know 274 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 1: that the public reacted very strongly in a negative way. 275 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 1: Or the outcome and the confirmation specifically of just now 276 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: Justice Kavanaugh. We know that again a sign of progress 277 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: because there were so many similarities between but the public 278 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 1: response was quite different. I did hear from people who 279 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,160 Speaker 1: would say, you know, are we going to go back 280 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: to high school and blame people for you know, a 281 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 1: boorish behavior or drinking too much? Is this an sort 282 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: of an unrealistic purity test? And when people say that, 283 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 1: you say, what this is? There is no purity test 284 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: so much as there is full disclosure, honesty and transparency. 285 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: And if you can't up that with the cord, where 286 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 1: can you get it? Um. The people who sit on 287 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court are making decisions about all sorts of cases, 288 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: some of which will include very likely sexual harassment or 289 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: sexual assault, and we need to understand the full character 290 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: and integrity of those people who are making us to 291 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: us us And if that means, you know, going back 292 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,959 Speaker 1: to the high school, we go back to the high school. 293 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 1: You know, we do that anyway for candidates, you know, 294 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: but you know they've had elementary teachers testify or write 295 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: statements in support of Canada that's nominees to the Supreme Court. 296 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: So you know, it's it's dishonest then to hide the 297 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 1: things that are not so positive, in fact are very negative. 298 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: So we need to have all of that and then 299 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: the public gets city side. Why did you call the 300 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: book believing? Because it takes a lot of believing too 301 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: actually boil those should I mean to to look at 302 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 1: the whole of this problem and realize that if you 303 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: don't look at the whole, if you don't look at 304 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 1: this this enormous um body of behavior that is happening. 305 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: That's injuring all of us. You're not going to be 306 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: able to solve the different pieces and to believe that 307 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 1: that it is solvable, because you know, another one of 308 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 1: the excuses that people raise is that, gosh, this is 309 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: just the way it is. This is the way it's 310 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: always bad. It's much too big for us to get 311 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: our arms around, and so let's just you know, you know, 312 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: let's just deal with it. Let's push it off on 313 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 1: the victims to deal with So believing for me included 314 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 1: not only that we need to enlist and believe in 315 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: survivors and victims, we also need to believe that we 316 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 1: are worthy of solutions and that change is possible. I 317 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 1: remember the buttons that people were I believe, Anita Hill, 318 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 1: after your testimony, and one question I wanted to ask 319 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: you about was the notion of believing all women. You know, 320 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: as a journalist, I've not necessarily struggled with it, because 321 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: I know the statistics, Anita, I know the fact how 322 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 1: much courage it does take to move forward. But in 323 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: the aftermath that the Me Too movement, as some people 324 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: felt the pendulum had swung too much, what do you 325 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: think about the notion of believing all women. I've talked 326 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: to Jodie Canter of The New York Times a little 327 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: bit about this, and it it um. It does fly 328 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 1: in the face of what journalists are really supposed to do, 329 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: search for truth and facts. So I would love you 330 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: to weigh in and and tell me how you feel 331 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: about that. Well, we now have a culture that assumes 332 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: that women are lying despite all the facts. There's this 333 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: persumption that women lie about their experiences. Do you think 334 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: that still exists even today? Oh? I do think it exists. 335 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: I mean either they believe that women are lying, or 336 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: that that that what happens doesn't matter, or that it 337 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: was their fault or that it was their fault. Yeah. 338 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: So so either way, we have decided that men are 339 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: always telling the truth to some extent, or men are 340 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: all the matter. And so you know, we've got we've 341 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: we've really, in the face of all the damage that's 342 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: being done, we have to sort of change our way 343 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: of thinking. And so that's one part. I mean, the 344 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: term believe all women is for me, just our invitation. 345 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: Two put in place systems in processes that allow us 346 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 1: to be heard and believed, and we're not there yet 347 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: and so that is what it means to me believe 348 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: in us enough to care enough to put systems in 349 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: that allows us to get to the truth more with 350 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 1: the need of right after this, much of this book 351 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: has a sort of before and after feel of your 352 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: life before nine when you gave that testimony against up 353 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: then Supreme Court nominee Clearance Thomas, and when you were 354 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: a tenured law professor at the University of Oklahoma College 355 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: of Law, the first African American ever be tenured. And 356 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: then after that testimony ultimately up ended your life, you 357 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 1: moved to Massachusetts, you took a full position at Brandis 358 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: and and embarked on this journey to end gender violence. 359 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: Can you talk about that moment in between and what 360 00:27:54,119 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 1: led you to that life change chain decision? I after 361 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: the hearing that first of all, I thought I could 362 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: just get back to my life, and that wasn't possible. 363 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: It was not going to be the same. And people 364 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: think that after I testified, I went back and things 365 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,719 Speaker 1: were all normal, But you know from having talked to 366 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: me about what happened afterwards, that there were threats and 367 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 1: there was hostility, and there were efforts to get me 368 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: fired from my job. But after you know, I got 369 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: over the realization that it was not going to get 370 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: back to normal, I actually started looking at what I 371 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: could do to understand and help other people understand how 372 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: we might solve the problem of sexual harassment in the workplace. 373 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: What I realized was that the law alone, and I 374 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: was trained, you know and teaching law, the law alone 375 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: was not going to be the answer. That the problem 376 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: was bigger than the laws that we now have in place. 377 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: So I ended up moving from Oklahoma, leaving a tenure 378 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: job for a contract position, because it decided I needed 379 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: to learn more about all of the ways that systems 380 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: and policies work together to keep this problem in place. 381 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: And so that's what I did. I just I left 382 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: and I started teaching at a policy school, and I 383 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: was surrounded by people with various disciplines um and I 384 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: was surrounded by people who were interested in solving social 385 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:52,959 Speaker 1: problem generally. And that was an environment that allowed me 386 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: to really grow and to develop many of the ideas 387 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: that that came into ultimately into the book. Had I 388 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: not made that change, I think I might have still 389 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: been somewhat stuck in terms of my thinking. But you 390 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: know what, Katie, how fortunate I am that I could 391 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: do that. I had training as a lawyer. But I 392 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: was also fortunate because I had a job that was transferable, 393 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: and I had skills that were transferable to somewhat place else. 394 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: And I didn't have to worry about a family that 395 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: would get suffered because of changes that I made, not 396 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: my immediate family, and you know, I did have to 397 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: leave my parents and siblings in Oklahoma, but I left 398 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: with their support. You must have heard from so many 399 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: people through the years, Anita, who didn't have transferable skills, 400 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: who didn't really have marketable skills, who were stuck and 401 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: trapped with no place to go, no options. And I 402 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: imagine those for the stories that affected you the most. 403 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: They absolutely are and I say none were, They absolutely 404 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: are the stories. You know, we like to say if 405 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: more women would just come forward and file complaints, then 406 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: the problem would be fixed. Now we're ignoring the fact 407 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: that the systems as they go into aren't there to 408 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: fix their problems necessarily. But we are also ignoring the 409 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: fact that there are costs to people who come forward, 410 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: and there risks that some people just cannot take. When 411 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: when when someone says, you know, well, if I take this, 412 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: I may lose my job. I may not ever be 413 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: able to get another one. I don't know where I 414 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: will get another one. You know, my my uh my 415 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: boss will be called if if I try to move 416 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: to another place, and what am I going to tell 417 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: the new employer and all of those things have to 418 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: be taken into account. You know, we we make it very, 419 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: very difficult for people to file complaints, which is one 420 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: reason we have no idea the real depth of this problem, 421 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: because there are so many people who will never be 422 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: able to speak up. That was definitely the case thirty 423 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: years ago. But you don't think that's changed at all. 424 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: You don't think that that there has been positive movement 425 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: in terms of supporting people who I mean, granted, I 426 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 1: totally understand what you're saying. Some people don't have the options, 427 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 1: but is there some good news? Has the needle moved 428 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: in any way? The needle has moved, and while there 429 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: are still people who who cannot make the choices that 430 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: I may, there are organizations that are supporting people to 431 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: make the choices that they can make. Two be safe 432 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: in spaces, but the resources aren't enough to keep up 433 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: with the level of the problem, and quite Frankly, the 434 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: forces that really are not interested in solving your problem 435 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: or my problem are very very strong. Basically, our systems 436 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: have failed us. The systems that were meant to solve 437 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: the problems are not solving it. You know, I talk 438 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: about a woman named Sharon Dunne UM and Sharon Dunne 439 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 1: is a Ford um auto worker who filed a suit 440 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: and nine in the ninet nineties. I believe it was nine. 441 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: UM sharing Dunn is still working in the forward plan 442 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: and she is now participating in a suit filed twenty 443 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: years later. So for years that problem has been going on. 444 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 1: So we've got systems that just are not working. Even 445 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: even in that first lawsuit, there was a huge settlement 446 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: by four to improve the conditions that people were working under. 447 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 1: Fast forward twenty years later, there's another lawsuit. Things have 448 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 1: not changed, But have has anything changed? Absolutely something has changed. 449 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 1: Hasn't changed for enough people, but some things have changed. 450 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: We now want here about these lawsuits. We now know 451 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: about them, We know about the are and dunes. We 452 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: now have organizations that are in fact really engaged. You know. 453 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: I'm on the board of the National Women's Law Center 454 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: UM and we are working hard every day, not only 455 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 1: to make sure that women are represented, poor women are 456 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 1: represented UM and women of color, because we know that 457 00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: the problems are exacerbated by race and and an income level. 458 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: We are working with organizations, whether it's people who are 459 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: organized in restaurant workers or people who are organizing workers 460 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: in who are doing field work and agricultural work. So 461 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: we're those things that didn't exist UM in nineteen are 462 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:05,280 Speaker 1: out part of the solution. Part of the reason that 463 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,320 Speaker 1: you're now hearing about sexual harassment insult in schools is 464 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: because of the student movement in universities and those students 465 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 1: to move where we're part of a movement now are 466 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: in the workplace, and they're part of the movement within 467 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 1: the workplaces. You know, we do have people walking out 468 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,359 Speaker 1: of workplaces because of bad decisions that were made by 469 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,000 Speaker 1: leadership UM. So, yes, there is energy out there, and 470 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: there is information out there, there are resources out there, 471 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: and I'm hopeful that this is the moment where those 472 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: things will come together and we we can have changed 473 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: we can push this issue forward and make the world 474 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: safer for everyone. I would imagine uh that that many 475 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,839 Speaker 1: people are mind their peace and cues. As my mom 476 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: would say, in ways they never did because of the 477 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: consequences that faced many high profile individuals. Um, do you 478 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 1: think that that the movement has changed corporate America or 479 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: you know, startups? I mean, I think you can't put 480 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: everything in the same category. But don't you think men 481 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: are afraid now to to act the way they have 482 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: acted or not all but some of them have acted 483 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: for for decades. I think that after every every event 484 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 1: where a rare awareness is raised, including nine changes happened. 485 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: I have heard from women who have told me my 486 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 1: my workplace changed in But clearly it's not enough, because 487 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 1: if it were enough, we would not have had me too, 488 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: and we still have. You know, whatever the reckoning is 489 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 1: is not complete, you know. I we did a survey 490 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 1: at the Hollywood Commission of Industry Workers, and one of 491 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:21,359 Speaker 1: the things that was so startling was that about, oh, 492 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 1: let's say, of the people we survey said that a 493 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: powerful man will not be held accountable for their bad behavior, 494 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:40,879 Speaker 1: even if it is document. We can't fire our way 495 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: out of this problem. That's just sort of treating the behavior. 496 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,760 Speaker 1: And we've got to deal with this as a structural problem. 497 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 1: And I think it goes well beyond individual workplaces. You know, 498 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 1: it goes really to me all the way to our government, 499 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 1: and we actually need to have a president who understands 500 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 1: that the problem is bigger. So, you know, there's still 501 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,399 Speaker 1: a lot of work to be done, but we are 502 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,400 Speaker 1: so much closer to the answers than we were before. 503 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,440 Speaker 1: And the answers are, yes, we have to deal with 504 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 1: the behavior, but we also have to deal with the 505 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,799 Speaker 1: structures that are enabling to behave You have a lot 506 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: of experience with President Biden, obviously as chairman of the 507 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 1: Senate Judiciary Committee back in nine. Uh, you had a 508 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 1: lot of white men staring down at you asking if 509 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 1: you were a scold woman, uh, citing the Exorcist. You know, 510 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:55,319 Speaker 1: I know that. Then Senator Biden made you restate some 511 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 1: of the most salacious details, even though it was in 512 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: your written testament. Any he called you to apologize. What 513 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,840 Speaker 1: was that like, Anita, that that phone call? Can you 514 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,800 Speaker 1: share it with us? Well, I talk about it in 515 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 1: a little more detail in the book. Uh, but it 516 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,800 Speaker 1: was it was an odd conversation because I wasn't looking 517 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 1: for an apology. I won't say, you know, I was 518 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: completely over it by the time it happened. But I 519 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: had really put it in perspective in in Chuck and 520 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:40,399 Speaker 1: I even joked about it. You know, when we were 521 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: having dinner in the doorbell rang uh instead of the 522 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,760 Speaker 1: fed X man. We used to think, oh, well, maybe 523 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: that's Joe Biden coming to apologize. But you know, and 524 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: all seriousness. Um, I really wasn't looking for an apology. 525 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:03,839 Speaker 1: What I wanted was for somebody to take responsibility. I will. 526 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 1: And over twenty years ago, I had a question from 527 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 1: a member of an audience that I was speaking to 528 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: about what president or what Candada will be the best 529 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: Candida to deal with problems of sexual harassment and that 530 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:29,400 Speaker 1: includes all kinds of misconduct and and abuse. And I 531 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,320 Speaker 1: thought about that question every time we have an election 532 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,680 Speaker 1: because it is an important question, and it is the 533 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: right question to be asked, be asking because we need 534 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 1: to know what our leaders are going to do about 535 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 1: this problem. And Joe Biden, for me, was in a 536 00:41:51,360 --> 00:42:01,759 Speaker 1: particularly important place because of because of his support of 537 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 1: the Violence Against Women Act, because of his support of 538 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:11,439 Speaker 1: ending harassment and assault on college campuses is effort there 539 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: and during his time in the Ovomit administration, he had 540 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: an opportunity has an opportunity to be the president who 541 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 1: says I will do everything in my power to make 542 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 1: sure that America doesn't continue to suffer this problem. Do 543 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:39,359 Speaker 1: you think he will? Are you disappointed with what he's 544 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,879 Speaker 1: done so far? Well? I think he will if we 545 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 1: continue to push it. Remember the apology came after he 546 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: was pushed barely often by different people, including journalists. Oh, 547 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: I wasn't one of the people. But I think, you know, 548 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,200 Speaker 1: he has a lot of work to do. But I 549 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,279 Speaker 1: think this should be a priority. And I think that 550 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,920 Speaker 1: unless we we tell him it's a priority, and that 551 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 1: we continue to urge it and we show him the 552 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:17,360 Speaker 1: evidence of why it should be a priority, ah, he 553 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 1: could very well be just like all of the other 554 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:25,799 Speaker 1: presidents before and and pass it on to the next generation. 555 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 1: I think when people hear about systemic change and changing, 556 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,640 Speaker 1: you know, societal structures, it is like boiling the ocean. 557 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:43,080 Speaker 1: Can you condense or take a you know, a cord 558 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,360 Speaker 1: of that water? And if you had to have the 559 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:52,200 Speaker 1: solutions or the steps that are necessary to really change 560 00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:59,279 Speaker 1: said system, what would they be. Well, one thing that 561 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,760 Speaker 1: I would say is that we need to go back 562 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:06,360 Speaker 1: and shore up the Violence Against Women Act and in 563 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 1: the year two thousand, it was got it and the 564 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 1: Supreme Court decision basically told Congress that it had no 565 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:21,799 Speaker 1: authority to provide protections and federal protections against violence that 566 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: was based on this faulty idea that you know, gender 567 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:33,480 Speaker 1: violence didn't impact us nationally, it didn't impact commers, despite 568 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,800 Speaker 1: the evidence that was there. Now we have even more evidence, 569 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:45,920 Speaker 1: so we now have more reason to go and fortify 570 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: the violence against women that um, not just reconfirm it 571 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,920 Speaker 1: in its existing form, but to make sure we have 572 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,919 Speaker 1: added protections in there for individuals who want to come 573 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:04,280 Speaker 1: forward and want a safe place or fair in just place, 574 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 1: actually not a safe safe place, not just a safe place, 575 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:13,600 Speaker 1: but a fair and just place to be heard. UM. 576 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: We need to have policies that take into account some 577 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,799 Speaker 1: of the harm that's being done to people who experienced 578 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:29,320 Speaker 1: in their violence and I mean very being very intentional 579 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:34,400 Speaker 1: and deliberate about it. So we know ten million people 580 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 1: suffering from UH intimate partner violence. Estimates are that of 581 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:48,280 Speaker 1: them will become homeless. Because of that, we need housing 582 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:56,560 Speaker 1: policies that take care of those individuals. Right now, we 583 00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:02,760 Speaker 1: have shelters that are over loaded. It and especially since 584 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,960 Speaker 1: COVID when the numbers of intimate partner violence and domestic 585 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 1: violence surged, but reporting declined as well. And reporting declined 586 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,840 Speaker 1: because there was no safe way to report and no 587 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,799 Speaker 1: place to go, and no place to go. Then you 588 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,960 Speaker 1: know there are health issues, there are housing issues. We 589 00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:34,600 Speaker 1: know that, for example, people lose income and economic opportunity 590 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,000 Speaker 1: because of violence. Either it can be violence and of 591 00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 1: a partner, violence or sexual harassment in their workplace that 592 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:47,480 Speaker 1: they lose time, or sexual assault that people lose time 593 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:55,200 Speaker 1: and opportunities, work opportunities. We don't have any specific policies 594 00:46:55,280 --> 00:47:02,200 Speaker 1: to address that problem of of ongoing economic security for 595 00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:07,320 Speaker 1: people who have been victims of gender violence. I guess 596 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,680 Speaker 1: the simplest answer I would give in terms of what 597 00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:18,240 Speaker 1: I would like and for solutions is to enlist survivors 598 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 1: and victims and formulating the solutions to this problem bring 599 00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,520 Speaker 1: us into the decision. They can put us at the 600 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 1: table when the laws are being debated, our policies are 601 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 1: being debated. Listen to what we have to say now, 602 00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:42,359 Speaker 1: and then the other thing that I will say, and 603 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,879 Speaker 1: that talk about this in the book. And we've got 604 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,960 Speaker 1: to acknowledge that there are all kinds of factors that 605 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:58,800 Speaker 1: are compounding this problem, racism being one, homophobia being another, 606 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:05,600 Speaker 1: and we've gotten whatever solutions that we come up with. 607 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,399 Speaker 1: We have to understand that if we don't get rid 608 00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:13,600 Speaker 1: of both of those, if we aren't attended to both 609 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:18,360 Speaker 1: of those issues, that we will only be serving a 610 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:23,279 Speaker 1: small portion of the population and we will not be 611 00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:27,719 Speaker 1: serving the people who are the most vulnerable. Ultimately, Anita, 612 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,279 Speaker 1: what what do you think your legacy will be? What 613 00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:36,279 Speaker 1: do you hope it will be? Well? I hope I 614 00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:40,520 Speaker 1: have time to add on to it. That's I'm not 615 00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:45,239 Speaker 1: ready to. I mean, it seems so final. I'm not 616 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,600 Speaker 1: ready for it to be final yet. I could feel 617 00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:49,359 Speaker 1: like there's got to be something more that I could 618 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:53,480 Speaker 1: think of and then will happen. So um, I do 619 00:48:53,600 --> 00:49:00,960 Speaker 1: hope that even right now, that people see me as 620 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:06,200 Speaker 1: somewhat who is coming from a position of having been 621 00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:11,239 Speaker 1: a victim of bias and harassment, but who is invested 622 00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:20,440 Speaker 1: in A huge thank you to Anita Hill, whose new 623 00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:24,600 Speaker 1: book is called Believing, Our thirty year Journey to End 624 00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:28,799 Speaker 1: Gender Violence. Thank you also to Deborah Turkheimer. Her new 625 00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,880 Speaker 1: book is called Credible, Why We Doubt accusers and protect 626 00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:37,560 Speaker 1: abusers both are out now, and if you haven't already, 627 00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,880 Speaker 1: there's still time to preorder my book Going There before 628 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,560 Speaker 1: it's October release. And if you'd like to join me 629 00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,400 Speaker 1: on tour, you can go to ticketmaster dot com slash 630 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,239 Speaker 1: Going There to find out we're all be traveling and 631 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,719 Speaker 1: to buy tickets. So I hope to see you all 632 00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:57,480 Speaker 1: on the road. Next Question with Kati Kurik is a 633 00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:00,640 Speaker 1: production of My Heart Media and Katie Kurik Media. The 634 00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:05,480 Speaker 1: executive producers Army, Katie Curic and Courtney Litz. The supervising 635 00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:10,560 Speaker 1: producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements, Adrianna Fasio, 636 00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,520 Speaker 1: and Emily Pinto. The show is edited and mixed by 637 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,279 Speaker 1: Derrick Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to 638 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:20,880 Speaker 1: sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go 639 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,640 Speaker 1: to Katie correct dot com. You can also find me 640 00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,400 Speaker 1: at Katie Currek on Instagram and all my social media channels. 641 00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,759 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the i 642 00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:34,440 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to 643 00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:35,520 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.