Speaker 1: You're listening to Comedy Central. Hey, it's Roy Wood Jr.
Speaker 1: Up Next is a special episode of Beyond the Scenes,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we go a little deeper into topics
Speaker 1: and segments that originally aired on The Daily Show. Today,
Speaker 1: we're revisiting January six with MSNBC's Chris Hayes and Daily
Speaker 1: Show contributor Jordan Clipper, who was actually on the ground
Speaker 1: at the Capitol on that day. Together, we go through
Speaker 1: the media's coverage and response to January six and what
Speaker 1: could be next for our democracy. Heavy listen, Hey, welcome
Speaker 1: to Beyond the Scenes. This is the podcast that goes
Speaker 1: above and beyond the topics that you see every night
Speaker 1: on The Daily Show with Trevor Noah on Comedy Central. Now,
Speaker 1: this week marks the one year anniversary. I don't even
Speaker 1: like the word anniversary because I don't want to keep
Speaker 1: remembering thing. But the January six uprising that went down
Speaker 1: at the Capitol, the insurrection. A bunch of Trump supporters
Speaker 1: went there and lost their damn minds and violently tried
Speaker 1: to stop the certification of electoral votes by storming the Capitol.
Speaker 1: Even to say it aloud, it's surreal. So we have
Speaker 1: two people with us on the program today to help
Speaker 1: us break this down. The first gentleman is h he's
Speaker 1: an Emmy nominated daily show contributor and uh, he was
Speaker 1: there at the Capitol and he's always there all the time,
Speaker 1: mixing it up with the Trump supporters. And if it's
Speaker 1: anyone that is not a fan of his activities, it
Speaker 1: is his wife and child. He is Jordan Klepper. Yes,
Speaker 1: I was there with Miami nomination where I thank you
Speaker 1: Roy Well. Jordan, our next guest is an Emmy winner. Alright, alright,
Speaker 1: and that's why you put it in there. That's why
Speaker 1: you put it in there. I was about to hop
Speaker 1: in when you said Emmy nominated and be like wait
Speaker 1: a second, like, oh, that's Jordan's Jordan, Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 1: He's the host of MSNBC's All In with Chris Hayes
Speaker 1: and the podcast is why is this happening? Amy Winner
Speaker 1: winner Chris Hayes, How you doing good? I just I'm
Speaker 1: conjuring a very funny notion in my head of like
Speaker 1: Jordan's in the midst of the insurrection and people like
Speaker 1: starting to get a little like chesty with him being
Speaker 1: like I'm I'm Emmy nominated. I just I want you
Speaker 1: to know maybe you should back off a little bit
Speaker 1: because I've got an Emmy nomination. Chris, I'd like to
Speaker 1: start with you because you get to exist in a
Speaker 1: place that you don't have the burden of having to
Speaker 1: find a punch line in between vomits of information to
Speaker 1: your viewers. The revision just vomit straight, unleavened by punch lines. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what we're going for. Yeah, the revisionist history that
Speaker 1: has happened around why the insurrection happened. Whether or not
Speaker 1: we can vilify the insurrection, it is because we're still
Speaker 1: at a point right now where they're still identifying people
Speaker 1: from the footage. Some have gone to jail, some have
Speaker 1: been convicted, but they're still stitching some of this stuff together.
Speaker 1: I want to I want to play a clip real
Speaker 1: quick of just Republicans flip flopping their positions. Let's just
Speaker 1: start with our elected officials and their opinions of the
Speaker 1: uprising on The President bears responsibility for Wednesday's attack on
Speaker 1: Congress by mob brider, and we have were so successful
Speaker 1: under President Trump. The last thing we want to do
Speaker 1: is be fighting among ourselves. We've had a hell of
Speaker 1: a journey. All I can say is count me out.
Speaker 1: Enough is enough. It's impossible for this party to move
Speaker 1: forward without President Trump being its leader. Do you think
Speaker 1: it was an impeachable effect? Oh? Sure? How do you
Speaker 1: agrade Trump as president? Oh? Listen, overall I give the
Speaker 1: president today and you lost Lindsey Graham. When you lose
Speaker 1: all these people, when Tom Cotton says it's time for
Speaker 1: you to concede, I think that you've got over the top.
Speaker 1: He couldn't even use his own Twitter account because he's
Speaker 1: been justifiably suspended for the last twenty four hours. And
Speaker 1: it was nothing about that speech that was inside phone.
Speaker 1: The president also using the term peacefully go down there.
Speaker 1: He didn't just say go down there and take the
Speaker 1: capital over. Chris. Yeah, you hear all of that flip flopping,
Speaker 1: and you see it every day on a regular basis,
Speaker 1: and as you prep for your Emmy winning program, Chris,
Speaker 1: are we crazy? Just just just are we crazy for
Speaker 1: just trying to make sure people understand just how heinous
Speaker 1: this was that it's been. It's been a huge focus
Speaker 1: of the show for the past year, precisely because of
Speaker 1: the revisionist history. I mean, I think there's to me,
Speaker 1: there's there's a few layers to it, right. One is
Speaker 1: it like, particularly in the context of the American criminal
Speaker 1: justice system, the way in which policing operates, particularly on
Speaker 1: people of color, what we've seen with George Floyd, Like
Speaker 1: the idea that people are going to turn around and
Speaker 1: excuse like mob violence after all this whipping up of
Speaker 1: this frenzy about it, you know, in the same moment,
Speaker 1: in the same program, they'll be like, hey, check out
Speaker 1: this smash and grab operation that happened, that took a
Speaker 1: bunch of purses. Oh, and also like it wasn't that
Speaker 1: big a deal when they like, you know, dragged a
Speaker 1: cop down the stairs and and and and threatened his life.
Speaker 1: So there's that aspect of it, which is like the
Speaker 1: idea that there's no actual standard for behavior, that like,
Speaker 1: if you're on our side, it's fine, and if you're
Speaker 1: on the other side, it's not, which I think is
Speaker 1: like an incredibly Trumpian notion um And I think it's
Speaker 1: a conservative notion before that, and I think you know,
Speaker 1: liberals can fall prey to it too, But it's on
Speaker 1: such display potently here. So there's the sort of excuses
Speaker 1: of minimization. Then there's the just like crazy disinformation of
Speaker 1: like it was the FEDS was Antifa, like trying to
Speaker 1: come up with these increasingly ludicrous and far fetched notions
Speaker 1: to essentially be exculpatory for what people actually did. And
Speaker 1: then the third aspect of it, I think that's really
Speaker 1: important is people want to say, oh, well that you know,
Speaker 1: there's some people will say, well, what they did. You know,
Speaker 1: obviously violence is wrong. What they did the capital is wrong.
Speaker 1: But like the one and fifty whatever fifty members of
Speaker 1: Congress to Republicans, the eight or nine members of the
Speaker 1: Senate that voted against seating the electoral votes, like, the
Speaker 1: entire project was insidious. The entire project was authoritarian, the
Speaker 1: entire project. Whether they were like at the Ellipse and
Speaker 1: they were doing it peacefully, it was just Josh Hally like, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: like the like that is the culmination and that itself
Speaker 1: is in a sort of special place. But the whole
Speaker 1: project was to overturn democratic election and install an authoritarian
Speaker 1: leader over the will of the people by whatever means,
Speaker 1: whether that means was Mike Pence ruling in a certain way,
Speaker 1: whether the means was you know, using loopholes in the
Speaker 1: Electoral count Act to get state delegations together to deliver
Speaker 1: the vote. Like whatever it was, the whole project was
Speaker 1: rotten to the core. And you can't just say, well, yes,
Speaker 1: what they did at the capitol was wrong. The whole
Speaker 1: project was wrong. But let things though a weird way,
Speaker 1: clipper like I understand politicians flip flopping because they have
Speaker 1: a check behind the things that they say, They have
Speaker 1: a real motivation. The voters, on the other hand, who
Speaker 1: decided to go and be a part of this in
Speaker 1: spite of all of them, because people love to say,
Speaker 1: they love to say, well, I'm doing my research, what
Speaker 1: have you done? A little bit more research or stupid
Speaker 1: as wouldn't be out here. The voters don't have a
Speaker 1: check uh, and they're probably not gonna get one, But
Speaker 1: they do have an identity. And I think that's the
Speaker 1: thing that I see people clinging to. The thing that
Speaker 1: surprised me most when I went to Trump event in
Speaker 1: Iowa a few months back and we brought up January six,
Speaker 1: like there isn't There was no coherent um narrative as
Speaker 1: to what had happened on January uh, And some people, yes,
Speaker 1: what happened was wrong, and it was wrong because Antifa
Speaker 1: were instigators. It was wrong because FBI, ci A, NASA
Speaker 1: and any organization you want to throw out there. So
Speaker 1: people said it wasn't wrong like that, Uh, Ashley Babbitt
Speaker 1: was as as a hero and there should have been
Speaker 1: more Ashley's out there. Some people declare it was nothing
Speaker 1: happened on the sixth and and and to me again
Speaker 1: that that that all has to do with more often
Speaker 1: than not when I would go out in the field
Speaker 1: and talk to folks, you don't need a coherent philosophy
Speaker 1: behind what happened, or even a coherent narrative. You just
Speaker 1: need a foothold to get you to the next, the
Speaker 1: next thing. And at that point it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, so much misinformation and bs has been spewed
Speaker 1: since that that like, yeah, you can you can read
Speaker 1: something about the FBI, Antifa. You can believe it didn't happen,
Speaker 1: or you can believe it did happen, it should have happened.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter, it doesn't all have to fit. It
Speaker 1: just has to get you onto the next thing. And
Speaker 1: I I for one, that was surprised how quickly that
Speaker 1: information and that those disjunctive narratives came about thanks to
Speaker 1: online bullshit. They have a very interesting take on who
Speaker 1: was behind the January six insurrection. Oh, antifa um like
Speaker 1: the corrupts fbi um basically rhinolds, cru politicians, the deep state,
Speaker 1: all of that. And I don't believe it was people
Speaker 1: like me and people like you see over there in
Speaker 1: that crowd that did it. Who who was? But the I, C,
Speaker 1: I A and TIFA were used, other other groups like that.
Speaker 1: It seemed like a lot of them were going into
Speaker 1: the Capitol to attack Nancy Pelosi and perhaps hang But
Speaker 1: which one the one with the bull horns? He's not
Speaker 1: a Trump supporter. I don't care what his resumes is.
Speaker 1: He's not a Trump supporter. In fact, do you remember
Speaker 1: the picture of the plane in Afghani Staid with all
Speaker 1: the people running next to it. That was a balloon plane.
Speaker 1: If you look at the pictures of the real plane,
Speaker 1: and there's pieces that are missing from the real plane
Speaker 1: to that place. So you're saying there's a conspiracy around
Speaker 1: the Afghanistan withdrawal. No, I'm saying that there was one
Speaker 1: guy there who ran. It's the only guy who turned
Speaker 1: to the camera and waved his hands. Do y'all remember that? Everybody?
Speaker 1: Remember that he's the guy with the horn to one
Speaker 1: his head. He was in Afghanistan. Go look at the pictures.
Speaker 1: I think he's in jail right now. Did you go
Speaker 1: for the JFK JR. Dead Body Return from the Death Point?
Speaker 1: Are you kidding? I got trust me my frequent flyer
Speaker 1: miles and that one. That one's on the list. I
Speaker 1: get more, I get more tweets about that of like
Speaker 1: are you coming to this? Are you coming? It's almost
Speaker 1: like a relative now. People are like, you gotta go
Speaker 1: down to Dallas. You know your your your homies are
Speaker 1: hanging out down by Done on the grass. No, are
Speaker 1: you gonna go see them? They're they're waiting for you.
Speaker 1: I do think there's a little bit of a distinct
Speaker 1: because like that that is like the hardest of the hardcore,
Speaker 1: Like that is like that is genuine mass delusion in
Speaker 1: a in a really acute sense. I think that what's
Speaker 1: on display more broadly among the sort of grassroots right
Speaker 1: is also a form of mass illusion, but a little
Speaker 1: more ground a little more complex, and a little more
Speaker 1: like grounded and familiar things like it's funny what you're
Speaker 1: just saying, Jordan, there because I've had this experience too.
Speaker 1: It's the mode of operating that you operate in if
Speaker 1: you're in the heat of like a bad fight with
Speaker 1: a person that you love, or like a or or
Speaker 1: an argument with someone like whether it's a you know,
Speaker 1: a sibling or a friend or a spouse, where like
Speaker 1: you're just churning through justification, like you're just trying, like
Speaker 1: you're not You're just like, I won't concede. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to give in to you in this moment. It's
Speaker 1: like it's all will You're not like you're not conversing,
Speaker 1: You're not like examining the avide. I mean, I'm saying
Speaker 1: this is when like you're in a bad, bad mode
Speaker 1: of sort of it's all it's all the toilet seat
Speaker 1: has been left up, Like okay, but is that is that?
Speaker 1: Is that all you have right now? You're like in
Speaker 1: this relationship. I'm sorry, No, I just think I just
Speaker 1: think there's like a there's a collective defensiveness, which is
Speaker 1: like you've put me on the spot, and I'm not
Speaker 1: going to concede to you putting me on the spot.
Speaker 1: And whatever it takes to to to diffuse that actually
Speaker 1: bad here, like whatever I have to say to when
Speaker 1: you're talking about like getting to that next foothold, it's
Speaker 1: like it's exactly, It's like I don't want to concede
Speaker 1: because then I'm I'm I'm giving away some power to
Speaker 1: you and I feel already oppressed by you. And that,
Speaker 1: I think is is the kind of operational mode of
Speaker 1: a lot of people in the kind of like Maga
Speaker 1: core where it really isn't coherent. Like I mean, one
Speaker 1: of my favorite stories is like and I'm sure maybe
Speaker 1: you guys have seen this, but it was it was
Speaker 1: like a few days after the the insurrection where there
Speaker 1: was like a guy who was in it who had
Speaker 1: to go on his Facebook page to be like, I
Speaker 1: see all these people blaming Antifa it. I'm telling you
Speaker 1: I was there, don't. It wasn't Antifa. We did it,
Speaker 1: the patriots. Like he's piste off that Antifa is getting
Speaker 1: the credit for what he did and has to go
Speaker 1: into these like crazy disinformation networks that he is embedded
Speaker 1: in to be like, y'all, hey, I was there, we
Speaker 1: did it. Stop giving them credit for what these patriots did.
Speaker 1: And it was just a perfect to me encapsulation of
Speaker 1: like they're really your point to get back to your point,
Speaker 1: Jordan's there is no actual coherent story about January six.
Speaker 1: On the right, there's a bunch of different stories that
Speaker 1: are thrown out to move on to the next topic,
Speaker 1: distract or mass exculpate the folks involved so that you
Speaker 1: can get back to the real thing, which is that
Speaker 1: the libs are oppressing you in whatever way. And that's
Speaker 1: what I want to get to after the break, because
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm curious about the MSNBC Chris Hayes news
Speaker 1: curation process because we're always stuck at the Daily Show
Speaker 1: with do we follow the crazy thing that just happened
Speaker 1: that's being reconstituted is something different? Or do we follow
Speaker 1: the new crazy thing that is happening or is it
Speaker 1: about to happen? And I'm very curious how you decide
Speaker 1: which ones to bring to light on your show. This
Speaker 1: is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back and in
Speaker 1: doing that, is that how you achieve an Emmy? I
Speaker 1: guess that's the other question. Well, that's yeah, that's well,
Speaker 1: that's you have to sign up for the master class
Speaker 1: for that. That's like everybody's masterclass Now, how are we
Speaker 1: doing this, Jordan Clipper, Chris Hayes. Are we saying heavy
Speaker 1: jan six? Are we saying Jasons? Do we say never forget?
Speaker 1: Do we say always forget? Yeah? I think it's just
Speaker 1: important to keep saying the date because I think five
Speaker 1: years from now there's a legitimate chance we go from
Speaker 1: January five to January seven on the Gregorian calendar. And
Speaker 1: so whatever you do, just make sure you repeat the
Speaker 1: date so people understand that it is a moment in time.
Speaker 1: Like we just agree a moment in time, that day
Speaker 1: never existed. It just didn't happen. We can you believe it?
Speaker 1: We remember the Alamo? Do you know what happened at
Speaker 1: the Alamo? It was a terrible loss which poorly placed
Speaker 1: Davy Crockett went down, The guy who created the bowie
Speaker 1: knife went down. Like that's a that's a terrible story.
Speaker 1: We should forget that story. Poor planning on America's part.
Speaker 1: Yet we remember that January six. We could take a
Speaker 1: lot of lessons from that, and we are, we are,
Speaker 1: We're trashing it as quick as we can. I'll be honest,
Speaker 1: as a black person, I am closely monitoring January six
Speaker 1: to make sure that it doesn't bleed over into Martin
Speaker 1: Luther King Weekend. A little close dangerous could turn it
Speaker 1: to a week long celebration. Once it's a week long,
Speaker 1: then it's a whole month, and then you got mL
Speaker 1: K in the middle of resurrection this month or whatever
Speaker 1: the hill. Patrem So, Chris, on your program on MSNBC,
Speaker 1: we just spoke about the misinformation and what motivates it?
Speaker 1: How and what do you decide to report on on
Speaker 1: your show number one just on some just straight up
Speaker 1: mental health ship. How do you stay calm just in
Speaker 1: the morning when you're just reading the headlines? How do
Speaker 1: you remain calm and measured as you deliver news that
Speaker 1: people are going to Dallas to see the dead body
Speaker 1: come out of the ground. Is it impossible? Goal? And
Speaker 1: stay calm, Chris, because we know you're gonna go all
Speaker 1: in like you have to. That's just that's the brand.
Speaker 1: You gotta go all in. And so in the morning,
Speaker 1: are you're like, should I just go half of the
Speaker 1: way in and stay calm or no? This is what
Speaker 1: the people want? Like Melbourne but hate not. I am
Speaker 1: generally uh well, I don't think I'm calm, honestly, I
Speaker 1: mean I think that I what I try to do
Speaker 1: is I definitely think that I've spent a lot more
Speaker 1: time telling myself the Serenity Prayer about like things I
Speaker 1: can control and things I can't the wisdom and know
Speaker 1: the difference, um, which is a big part of it.
Speaker 1: Like I think that there are times where, because I
Speaker 1: do have a platform that are very privileged to have,
Speaker 1: it feels like that I have more causal Like there
Speaker 1: were definitely times during COVID where I felt like it
Speaker 1: was my job to like save the country from the
Speaker 1: mass death of COVID. And I mean, but and but
Speaker 1: I fail. I mean I didn't. I didn't work. I mean,
Speaker 1: I you know, we we I think, and and right
Speaker 1: now I think I feel that way about like American
Speaker 1: democracy the way that I felt I think last year
Speaker 1: around COVID, even though of course we're still in the
Speaker 1: pandemic um. But American democracy seems to me, like I
Speaker 1: feel in a similar way of just like ringing this
Speaker 1: alarm bell, and that's the thing I have. I have
Speaker 1: the bullhorn, I have the alarm bell, I have the platform.
Speaker 1: We've been very focused on this story, generally, the story
Speaker 1: of American democracy in peril, in in apparel that it
Speaker 1: never has really faced in this particular way. It's faced
Speaker 1: peril in many different ways, and wasn't really actually a
Speaker 1: democracy for the you know, the vast, vast majority of
Speaker 1: the of the country's existence. So it's not like there's
Speaker 1: some like beautiful, healthy on days to look back on.
Speaker 1: But what happened, I mean, this is the thing that
Speaker 1: we focus on, and we focus a lot on January
Speaker 1: six specifically, but but more broadly, like the fate of
Speaker 1: American democracy is that it's hard, I think in the
Speaker 1: same way that I think the first days, in the
Speaker 1: first weeks and months of the pandemic were hard. It
Speaker 1: is hard to get your heads head around the scope
Speaker 1: and enormity of what you're dealing with. But like, if
Speaker 1: they had pulled it off, it really would have been
Speaker 1: the case that the fundamental precept that undergirds this whole thing,
Speaker 1: which is that the people choose their leaders, not the
Speaker 1: other way around, and that a majority of people is
Speaker 1: what stands in for the whole and you're dealing with
Speaker 1: democratic elections. To cast that out, um, you know, really
Speaker 1: would have been an enormous apocaly break with what we've
Speaker 1: had before. And that's still that threat still looms over us.
Speaker 1: Can I ask a question, Chris, like you talk about
Speaker 1: the the the insurrection was something that had been happening
Speaker 1: the week beforehand, that it was happening behind closed doors.
Speaker 1: Are you at all afraid that in the discussion of
Speaker 1: this and how perhaps the media frames and also just
Speaker 1: the mindset of those who digest it, We're gonna go
Speaker 1: down this rabbit hole and it's all gonna be about
Speaker 1: whether or not Donald Trump gave the go ahead to
Speaker 1: you go straight ahead. Yeah, that's a great point. It's
Speaker 1: something I'm really trying hard to avoid because I think
Speaker 1: we saw that in some ways with what happened with
Speaker 1: the Russia story, which was like, oh, we got him,
Speaker 1: We're gonna get it, and also right, and it's but
Speaker 1: it's also like, take a step back. It's like they
Speaker 1: the Russians wanted Donald Trump to be president and sought
Speaker 1: to aid his campaign. The campaign privately and publicly welcome
Speaker 1: their help, like, and then they committed a variety of
Speaker 1: very serious crimes to sabotage his opponent. Those three things
Speaker 1: we knew from the jump, like so and then you know,
Speaker 1: and understandably got into the moment, and then it was like, well,
Speaker 1: they didn't find this smoking gun where he you know,
Speaker 1: called up Vladimir Putin and said hack Hillary. Whatever. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: he said it on he said it on camera. I
Speaker 1: mean he said, we're going to go down to the Capitol. Now,
Speaker 1: he don't literally instructed the crowd. We're gonna walk down
Speaker 1: to the capital and we're gonna cheer on our brave
Speaker 1: senators and congressmen and women. And we're probably not gonna
Speaker 1: be cheering so much for some of them, because you'll
Speaker 1: never take back our country with weakness. You have to
Speaker 1: show strength, and you have to be strong. It was
Speaker 1: like he'd grabbed up them and he bold them, you know,
Speaker 1: down Pennsylvania Avenue. So I agree that it's important to
Speaker 1: keep what is publicly known. He's unbelievably damning would disqualify
Speaker 1: him from ever holding any position of public trust ever,
Speaker 1: and I think there's a plausible criminal case to be
Speaker 1: made against him under federal law. He certainly should have
Speaker 1: been impeached. He certainly should have been disqualified from ever
Speaker 1: holding public office. No, if we learn nothing new starting now,
Speaker 1: and I think your your point is well taken and
Speaker 1: something that we really try on the show to avoid,
Speaker 1: which is we're constantly resetting what are the publicly known
Speaker 1: facts and what they say about the danger of this
Speaker 1: individual and the movement that he leads and the threat
Speaker 1: it poses to American democracy, whether or not we find
Speaker 1: out even more damning details, which I suspect we will,
Speaker 1: Chris on your show, Trump loyalists and insurrectionists, You generally,
Speaker 1: for the most part, don't swim in those waters of
Speaker 1: talking to those types of people. Will is that in
Speaker 1: the effort to keep the misinformation to a minimum and
Speaker 1: not allow people to use your show as a vessel
Speaker 1: for misinformation, Like what walked me through the strategy in
Speaker 1: that Yeah, I mean we actually had two of them
Speaker 1: the other night, and it was sort of interesting. We
Speaker 1: had these two folks that were the people that planned
Speaker 1: the Ellipse rally and are now cooperating the January six committee. Um,
Speaker 1: mostly because like they feel thrown under the bus by Trump,
Speaker 1: not I think for any noble reason above that. Um.
Speaker 1: But look, the problem is, and I learned this. I
Speaker 1: come back to this example all the time, and I
Speaker 1: think my staff is probably tired of hearing about it,
Speaker 1: but it's very formative for me. Like if you were
Speaker 1: in the left in two thousand two or two thousand three,
Speaker 1: and you were in spaces you're going to anti war protests,
Speaker 1: or you're going to events, you're writing for lefty magazines.
Speaker 1: You were encountering eleven truth. There's a lot, a lot.
Speaker 1: They were everywhere. They would get up and ask the
Speaker 1: first question at every event, and they and one of
Speaker 1: the things I quickly learned was like you couldn't get
Speaker 1: in to a debate or win a debate with them
Speaker 1: because like there was no like they were like, what
Speaker 1: about this angle of this shadow of this If you
Speaker 1: look at this lamp post by the Pentagon, it couldn't
Speaker 1: have been clipped by this wing and this engine. But
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, you're just in this of
Speaker 1: steel that was made in that year, and you can't.
Speaker 1: It's the same thing with like I think people that
Speaker 1: adhere to the big lie, you know, it's like you
Speaker 1: can't really engage on those terms and get anything useful.
Speaker 1: The other thing for me, and this is different than
Speaker 1: for Jordan, is like we have a live show and
Speaker 1: we have these time limits and so controlling and wrangling.
Speaker 1: You know, it makes a big difference. Like if I
Speaker 1: could go and talk to people and then take all
Speaker 1: that footage and figure out what we're gonna do with it.
Speaker 1: But I'm there on live TV, and not only that,
Speaker 1: there's a responsibility of that, which is that everything they're
Speaker 1: saying is going out to million people and I'm in
Speaker 1: some ways responsible for that, right, So like so it's
Speaker 1: just a it's a it's it's it's a real heavy
Speaker 1: burden you carry when you put someone on the air
Speaker 1: about what is going to be communicated to your audience.
Speaker 1: So in Jordan's how do you how do you balance
Speaker 1: that because you you do basically yeah, yeah, let's talk.
Speaker 1: Let's talk. I've got on my nice warm jacket. Let's
Speaker 1: stand out here outside forever and ever and talk to
Speaker 1: these people, like what what are you thinking when you
Speaker 1: go out? What is your objective? Because it clearly can't
Speaker 1: be to change their minds. Well, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: Chris brings up a great point is that the difference
Speaker 1: between live TV and something you bring back and you
Speaker 1: edit because it is true we we there there is
Speaker 1: stuff that is in the head that is that is
Speaker 1: hateful or misinformation that we feel we don't add context
Speaker 1: to in our responses, and that is something we feel
Speaker 1: responsibility towards if we put that out, so there's there's
Speaker 1: control in an edit, and we we take that all
Speaker 1: into account. I think, you know, we we go to
Speaker 1: these events because one we want to know what are
Speaker 1: people actually talking about on the ground, What is getting
Speaker 1: through specifically for Trump proleyes, what is getting through from
Speaker 1: uh them on stage and what we hear in New
Speaker 1: York to the actual people out there? And what are
Speaker 1: we missing when we watch the news because you know,
Speaker 1: these these news hosts, they think they're so smart, they
Speaker 1: think they got their big Emmy Award winning shows, but
Speaker 1: until they get out there, they don't know what it's
Speaker 1: really like. That's right, But I mean our objective it
Speaker 1: we we go with questions what has seeped in? Where
Speaker 1: are people? What are they thinking? Uh? And we just
Speaker 1: go and we start to respond to that. Can I
Speaker 1: ask you a question, Yeah, do do they recognize you?
Speaker 1: Do they know who you are? It varies. I think, Uh,
Speaker 1: it's growing, but there's there's still I will say, there's
Speaker 1: still a giant bubble. So more often than not, I
Speaker 1: go to a rally and most people don't. They're immediately
Speaker 1: skeptical because there's a camera and so you're bad guy
Speaker 1: because you're a camera but also they're making you as
Speaker 1: a member of the media, and that is enough in
Speaker 1: some ways to put them in a sort of somewhat
Speaker 1: skeptical place, but not specifically like this is his stick.
Speaker 1: He does this, he you know he's going to try
Speaker 1: to trap exactly. They already have their opinion about the media.
Speaker 1: It's either something stay away, these are the bad guys,
Speaker 1: or these are the bad guys. I'm going to win
Speaker 1: with them, And whether or not I'm on Trevor Show
Speaker 1: or not usually doesn't come into effect. Although then there
Speaker 1: is a person who's like, I've seen this guy's videos
Speaker 1: and we were at a we're at an event, a
Speaker 1: school board meeting, and a guy charged me because it
Speaker 1: was like, that's that guy. We have to have security
Speaker 1: come in and stop this guy, and there's an altercation there.
Speaker 1: So like I think also they don't like to be
Speaker 1: made fun of. What I not January six, but two
Speaker 1: weeks four hands the million Maga March, which was a
Speaker 1: beautiful march their number. But but what people don't often
Speaker 1: understand there is there's probably thirty thousand people there. But
Speaker 1: these are also poorly run events. Go Figure, which means
Speaker 1: there's two stages that are essentially a mile apart with
Speaker 1: thirty thousand people in between, and the sound systems they
Speaker 1: paid for can only you can only about two people
Speaker 1: can hear what's actually going on. So you have essentially
Speaker 1: twenty nine people who are million about and when you're
Speaker 1: interviewing people and and perhaps the people are getting upset
Speaker 1: or somebody's like, I think I know that guy. Well,
Speaker 1: then the two people who are watching become ten, become fifty,
Speaker 1: and it becomes dangerous there. So even if you're not
Speaker 1: immediately recognized, we have to be savvy because there is
Speaker 1: a there is a mob mentality when you have a camera. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's always something I find like a natural and end
Speaker 1: can sometimes be kind of foreboding about the role of
Speaker 1: camera plays in the crowd and what and what it
Speaker 1: does to help people behave around it independent of people's
Speaker 1: politics or you know, ideological commitments, just generally, I've I've
Speaker 1: had that experience. Well, and also it's they're dressing for
Speaker 1: it now, you know the We make a lot of
Speaker 1: jokes about the the apparel at a MAGA rally. And
Speaker 1: what it's become so fascinating is people are going there
Speaker 1: to dress for being on camera, for being recognized by
Speaker 1: uh Donald Trump or other folks. It's, you know, so
Speaker 1: like they suddenly walk down an aisle which is essentially
Speaker 1: a dressing room and costume department. They pick out the
Speaker 1: most uh, the most extreme point to view that are
Speaker 1: you could fit onto a T shirt? Uh they put
Speaker 1: them on, and what we started noticing too, and then
Speaker 1: they're starting then they have to answer questions about the
Speaker 1: view that they just put on their chest, which some
Speaker 1: of them have that view, some of them have just
Speaker 1: adopted that view. And now this camera is starting to
Speaker 1: craft a narrative around that person who has this thing
Speaker 1: on their chest that they speak for that maybe they
Speaker 1: just wanted that attention, but they're already now creating this
Speaker 1: narrative which is which is only grown in the last
Speaker 1: two years. Chris, there is definitely a lot of disagreeing
Speaker 1: on whether or not facts or factual. Therefore, journalism, when
Speaker 1: you report the facts, which is your job as a journalist,
Speaker 1: could be seen as an opinion. What say you to
Speaker 1: people who believe that people of your ilk and I'm
Speaker 1: talking just primetime news in general, are based in opinionated
Speaker 1: journalism and not factual journalism. Is there a way to
Speaker 1: unblur the lines where at least, even if we don't
Speaker 1: agree on the solution, can we at least agree on
Speaker 1: what the facts are? Or it's just if you're an
Speaker 1: opinionated journalist, and if that's what I am to you,
Speaker 1: that's just what it's got to be. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's that's a it's such a deep question. It's hard
Speaker 1: to talk through it because I spent probably twenty years
Speaker 1: thinking about various versions of this, all the way back
Speaker 1: to being a philosophy major in undergrad and thinking about
Speaker 1: epistemology and how people form true beliefs. I mean, the
Speaker 1: way that I think about what I do is that
Speaker 1: I have a point of view and a perspective and
Speaker 1: a set of values that I have that I'm pretty
Speaker 1: transparent about. I really believe in democracy. I believe in equality, solidarity,
Speaker 1: rights and protections, the flourishing of people's lives um And
Speaker 1: I approached the news with those with those views. I'm
Speaker 1: on the left for sure. People know that, and that
Speaker 1: perspective colors what I talk about and what I you know,
Speaker 1: what I don't talk about, and you know what I
Speaker 1: choose to to spotlight we're really rigorous, so we put
Speaker 1: things that are true on our show. But the thing
Speaker 1: is that, like truth is only I mean, there's there's
Speaker 1: a bunch of different categories, right, so like you can
Speaker 1: communicate untruthful stuff or false and malicious stuff without ever
Speaker 1: telling a single factual lie. You know, then there's people
Speaker 1: who just lie, right, So like oh, the the an
Speaker 1: Italian satellite hacked the voting machines to change votes. It's
Speaker 1: just like a lot, it's just like not a true statement,
Speaker 1: and it's a preposterously not that. But then you know,
Speaker 1: there's a period where Tucker Carlson was going around doing
Speaker 1: this thing where he was taking this open source vaccine
Speaker 1: reporting system where people could anyone could report an adverse
Speaker 1: event after a vaccine and saying, look, people died after
Speaker 1: that they got their vaccine now or whatever the number was,
Speaker 1: Now that's it was true. I mean, like you know,
Speaker 1: when you give two hundred million people shots, like some
Speaker 1: set of people are going to you know, get hit
Speaker 1: by a bus there, there, hit there, they have cancer
Speaker 1: and they came up like whatever it is. So you're
Speaker 1: not saying a lie, right, Like it is factually accurate
Speaker 1: that that a certain number of people died after they
Speaker 1: got their vaccine shot. When you go on air and
Speaker 1: you say it in that terms, you are implying a
Speaker 1: causal link there that says these vaccines are scary, they're
Speaker 1: killing killing people and not telling you about it. And
Speaker 1: so like that line between like what's fact, what's opinion,
Speaker 1: what's perspective, it is actually pretty complicated, you know, because
Speaker 1: like you can say a lot of true things. It's
Speaker 1: like here, here's here's my favorite example, like racist websites. Okay,
Speaker 1: like like really like that, Like if you go to
Speaker 1: the world of like Stormfront and and by the way,
Speaker 1: which is like very adjacent to like a lot of
Speaker 1: Donald Trump stuff, and there are periods during different campaigns
Speaker 1: and Donald Trump would like tweet these out. Like you
Speaker 1: could run a website that only identifies examples of black
Speaker 1: men assaulting white people in a country of millions and
Speaker 1: just make that all you show, and it could be
Speaker 1: the case that, like it is factually true that in
Speaker 1: each of those instances they else what you're doing is
Speaker 1: running a white supremacist website, right, And you're running a
Speaker 1: white supremacist website without ever like telling a lie in
Speaker 1: some sort of like sense of like, these are facts.
Speaker 1: I'm just showing you the facts of all the But
Speaker 1: that's that's like Nazi propaganda essentially, which by the way,
Speaker 1: they used to actually like run examples of Jews committing crimes.
Speaker 1: So it's like this question of what is what effective opinion.
Speaker 1: It's like the world contains so many facts that in
Speaker 1: some ways what's more insidious than lies, and lies are insidious,
Speaker 1: we see with a big lie is which facts you
Speaker 1: choose to emphasize, which facts you choose to focus on,
Speaker 1: and so much destruction and so much um rune can
Speaker 1: happen based on which facts people choose to use their platforms.
Speaker 1: For Amy winner, I'm glad you have that that I
Speaker 1: could feel that Emy nomination just cracking inside of me.
Speaker 1: After a break, I want to I want to talk
Speaker 1: to you all about where we're headed. I don't know
Speaker 1: if this is gonna be a new holiday. I don't
Speaker 1: know if our kids are gonna start getting jan six
Speaker 1: out of school for their own safety. I don't know.
Speaker 1: But I am curious about where we go from here
Speaker 1: and the role that the media plays, and this this
Speaker 1: is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back, Chris. What
Speaker 1: would you say is the big was the biggest failure
Speaker 1: in reporting as it relates to January six, let's critique
Speaker 1: our media co workers here. I would say that one
Speaker 1: thing that happened, and I think that I actually think
Speaker 1: it's been I think the reporting in the wake of
Speaker 1: it's been quite good. I think one misapprehension people had
Speaker 1: when watching it was that it was kind of goofy,
Speaker 1: and I think that was because of what the cameras
Speaker 1: were showing as opposed to what they weren't showing. So
Speaker 1: because you have cameras in the galleries, you know, what
Speaker 1: you saw was like the shade of the que shaman
Speaker 1: comes in and he sits on the chair, and it
Speaker 1: all seems like stunty and weird. They're all like recording themselves.
Speaker 1: And it's only later when you start to get the
Speaker 1: footage of like the cop who's being you know, pressed
Speaker 1: in the door, and and Michael Finnane being dragged through,
Speaker 1: and the body camp footage and the assaults and like
Speaker 1: um and then the you know, Ashley Babbitt attempting to
Speaker 1: vault through that broken window and the gunshot that that
Speaker 1: that killed her. So I think there was a little
Speaker 1: bit of a misapprehension the beginning. I think it's probably
Speaker 1: stuck with some people. In fact, some people, I think
Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson's one example, have tried to like keep that going, like, Oh,
Speaker 1: isn't this a goofy funny, Like it's ridiculous to be
Speaker 1: scared of these people? What are you talking about? So
Speaker 1: I think that's a misapprehension that was pretty prominent in
Speaker 1: the beginning, but I think has been I think it's
Speaker 1: been turned around. I mean, I think most Americans think
Speaker 1: what happened there was completely messed up. Like, I don't
Speaker 1: think it's a I don't think the problem with January
Speaker 1: six is that people don't get that it was bad
Speaker 1: um or you know. I just think that there's the
Speaker 1: bigger problem is this that fundamentally the Republican Party's an
Speaker 1: institution is radicalized against democracy, and that they have that
Speaker 1: that there has been a slow the institutions of the
Speaker 1: country have been slow to recognize that, and they have
Speaker 1: faced no political price for it among voters. You've gone
Speaker 1: on record and saying that this should have been one
Speaker 1: of the craziest events in the last fifty years of history.
Speaker 1: The Clapper, why do we care more about Kim Kardassian
Speaker 1: dating Pete Davidson. What what I mean, what's the attraction?
Speaker 1: She she wore the easiest on the date. Come on,
Speaker 1: that's your husband, Jesus to go out. There's so many
Speaker 1: articles day in and day out of why why don't
Speaker 1: we see more outrage towards this thing or this thing.
Speaker 1: I do think there's there's an overrepresentation as to how
Speaker 1: many people are actually actually give a ship about democracy,
Speaker 1: and not in the sense of like, oh, yeah, it's important, important,
Speaker 1: I'll say that to an interview or what have you,
Speaker 1: but like our interest in the political ramifications of what
Speaker 1: happens day in and day out. Most people I talked
Speaker 1: to there on Jane or A six. Again, it's are
Speaker 1: there for the show and are there for the identity.
Speaker 1: And I don't think would even articulate seeing government as
Speaker 1: something that needs to play a role in helping them
Speaker 1: and or helping society. In fact, they've been outside of
Speaker 1: the whole political world for years and it wasn't until
Speaker 1: this new character came in who welcomed them in and
Speaker 1: they felt they could be a part of it. Uh.
Speaker 1: But again it became about winning above uh, restoring democracy,
Speaker 1: creating a working government that could benefit people who are
Speaker 1: in need, protecting people, things of that nature like that
Speaker 1: actually was never an interest to a lot of the
Speaker 1: people we talked about. It really was just simply about
Speaker 1: the game of the gamification of the not only the election,
Speaker 1: but then what happened after that. And so so you're like, why,
Speaker 1: why why are Americans more interested in this and not
Speaker 1: focused on how democracy is crumbling Because we were never
Speaker 1: interested in democracy as an idea. We were interested at
Speaker 1: democracy as a um, a bullet to put in a
Speaker 1: gun on that we could shoot to win the contest
Speaker 1: of my team beat your team, and and and and
Speaker 1: that's where I'm just like, oh, I don't think Americans
Speaker 1: are that into politics. Uh. Politics is something to um
Speaker 1: uh uh to utilize government so that its role can
Speaker 1: can help you ultimately that they're into games or like
Speaker 1: civic work, you know. I mean I think that's that
Speaker 1: you know, it does um it is very identity based.
Speaker 1: And I also think, look, the attentional imperatives here, to
Speaker 1: your point, like, are hard in a million different directions.
Speaker 1: I mean, people getting people's attention about anything. It's hard.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, we've never had more um there's
Speaker 1: never been more things tugging on our attention. There's never
Speaker 1: been things that we needed more focused attention on more UM.
Speaker 1: And here I'm thinking of the climate challenge, which is like,
Speaker 1: quite literally the the largest challenge that humans have faced
Speaker 1: since we started civilization. Mother Nature bought some Instagram ats
Speaker 1: and was an influence exact but continues, Sorry didn't. Those
Speaker 1: attentional questions are really hard ones are ones I struggle
Speaker 1: with too, UM and I don't know the answer to them.
Speaker 1: But you know, there are a lot of people that
Speaker 1: are paying a lot of very close attention UM. There
Speaker 1: are a lot of people who understand what UM, how
Speaker 1: serious things are UM. And I think, you know, in
Speaker 1: some ways, I think there's an argument made that you've
Speaker 1: never had more discussions about democracy itself as a sort
Speaker 1: of topic of conversation in my political life, you know,
Speaker 1: where the issue about like are we going to maintain democracy?
Speaker 1: Are we going to strengthen democracy? Is like an actual
Speaker 1: topic of conversation that it wasn't really the case. I think,
Speaker 1: like ten or twelve or fifteen years ago. What could
Speaker 1: we expect when it comes to the future of democracy
Speaker 1: being a set Because the thing that I find that's
Speaker 1: interesting now is that a lot of the people that
Speaker 1: stir at the pot in have been deep platform So
Speaker 1: a lot of the ways these types of people can
Speaker 1: find each other and the hornets nest can be stirred
Speaker 1: up is not the same. Trump is not on television
Speaker 1: as much, a lot of his cronies are not on
Speaker 1: television as much. So could they still mobilize like this? Again? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a good question. I mean, I don't know what
Speaker 1: the future holds. I know that Republicans have worked very
Speaker 1: hard to put people in positions to do and pull
Speaker 1: off what they were not able to do and pull
Speaker 1: off last time. You have the secretary of State being
Speaker 1: primary in Georgia. You've got the secretary of state election
Speaker 1: in Arizona with sort of like avowed adherence to the
Speaker 1: big Lie pro coup forces. You've got a pro coup
Speaker 1: primary challenge the governor of Georgia. Right, all these people essentially,
Speaker 1: whether they're saying implicitly or in some cases explicitly saying
Speaker 1: like I will do what was not done before, which
Speaker 1: is deliver power into the hands of the candidate who
Speaker 1: lost because I don't recognize legitimacy of the majority. Because
Speaker 1: they're not my people, right, So I really worry about that.
Speaker 1: And look, at one level, there's technical problems here about
Speaker 1: the way that the law works and who's administering elections,
Speaker 1: but there's sort of a deeper problem, Like I think
Speaker 1: about this old Yogi bear a line where he says, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, they should move first base closer to homes.
Speaker 1: There aren't so many close plays at first, which is
Speaker 1: like you can't like, there's no so like there's gonna
Speaker 1: be close places at first wherever you put the base right.
Speaker 1: It's like if you have one of two major American
Speaker 1: coalitions mobilized against democracy with the belief that the other
Speaker 1: side is illegitimate by definition and cannot legitimately win. Whatever
Speaker 1: happens technically around election law like matters, but ultimately, like
Speaker 1: the threat is that that's the deep threat, and that
Speaker 1: threat is there and growing, and so I don't know
Speaker 1: what it looks like how it plays out, but look,
Speaker 1: elections end when the loser acknowledges their over like as
Speaker 1: a function, as a as a functional matter. That's the
Speaker 1: definition of the end of an election. And that can't
Speaker 1: be if there's a side that will never acknowledge that,
Speaker 1: then that we're in totally different territory. So it sounds
Speaker 1: like we're fuck Jordan's I think that's cooler heads can prevail,
Speaker 1: then it's gonna be all right. And there's a lot
Speaker 1: of cooler heads out there. You know you talked to
Speaker 1: him all the time. Yeah, let me send you some links.
Speaker 1: It'll put a lot of faith in humanity and our democracy.
Speaker 1: There are cooler heads out there. There are people who
Speaker 1: did the right thing last time. And I think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of people in America who have a deep,
Speaker 1: a deep patriotism and civic a sense of solemn civic
Speaker 1: duty who did the right thing the last time around.
Speaker 1: I hope they're there the next time. And I also
Speaker 1: hope that those people are having lots of sex and
Speaker 1: making more people just like them so that my child
Speaker 1: as a decent world. And that's how we're gonna end
Speaker 1: this segment. You and most podcasts like that, I feel
Speaker 1: like I've I've heard you. You really go to that
Speaker 1: well a lot, right, Just ye, you're really wishing sex.
Speaker 1: I'm just wishing lessons upon people. So um with that.
Speaker 1: Jordan Klepper and Chris Hayes and MSNBC all in with
Speaker 1: Chris Hayes I mean, I don't in SNBC podcast is
Speaker 1: why is this happening? Chris Hayes. One is an Emmy winner,
Speaker 1: one is an EMBI nomine soon to be Inny Winner
Speaker 1: with all the hard work that he is doing out
Speaker 1: there on the streets. I wish you all a happy
Speaker 1: Do you think we're gonna have retail sales around the Resurrection?
Speaker 1: Would take that? That would be fine? I would I
Speaker 1: would take just maybe. Uh. I wish you a happy
Speaker 1: Resurrection interaction Insurrection. Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm thinking about Christmas. Oh, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm a Christian. Think I'm that enough. Thank you Jesse
Speaker 1: for going beyond the scenes. Hey, beyond the scenes listeners.
Speaker 1: If you haven't rated and reviewed us yet on Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: I need you to stop right now and do that.
Speaker 1: Drop us a rating, let us know how you feel
Speaker 1: and write a review. Write a review too, because I
Speaker 1: read those to my child at the end of the night,
Speaker 1: because I'm I'm out of books. Gotta go buy new books.
Speaker 1: Watch The Daily Show weeknights at leven tenth Central on
Speaker 1: Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount Plus.
Speaker 1: This has been a Comedy Central podcast