1 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: When one thinks of the Harvard Business School, one thinks 2 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: of strategy, investments, technology. But actually one of the most 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: popular professors of the Harvard Business School now is Arthur Brooks, 4 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: who teaches the course on Happiness. I had a chance 5 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: recently to sit down with Arthur to talk about how 6 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: he became a leading expert on happiness and how he 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: came to write a book on the subject with Oprah Winfrey. 8 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: So you are a professor at Harvard and you're teaching, 9 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: among other things, happiness. Can you really teach happiness? Because 10 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: this happiness something you kind were born with or maybe 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: you acquire in life. But in a course, can you 12 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: really learn how to be happy? 13 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 2: Well, you can learn how to pursue happiness through basically 14 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 2: three mechanisms. Number One, you need to understand what it 15 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 2: is and what the science says about it, which is 16 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 2: contrary to a lot of what we hear growing up. 17 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:53,599 Speaker 2: Most people have a lot of misconceptions about happiness. You 18 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 2: have to change some habits, change your life a little bit, 19 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 2: and then you have to teach it to other people 20 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 2: to become responsible for it, which is like anything else. 21 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 2: If you want to become a good golfer, you have 22 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 2: to understand golf. You have to play golf. And it's 23 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 2: even better if you explain golf to somebody and then 24 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 2: you that's the algorithm basically for getting better at any subject. 25 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: I suppose I am a grumpy person by nature? 26 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 2: Is this true? 27 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: Well, I'm just just assume I'm a grumpy person by nature. 28 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 2: Find you lovely? 29 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: Okay, And let's suppose I take your course. Am I 30 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: going to go from being grumpy to happy by virtual 31 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: of taking a course? 32 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: No? And this is really not just about emotional transformation. 33 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 2: One of the things that my students learn is emotional 34 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 2: self management. Emotions are are misunderstood by almost everybody. They 35 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: think about good feelings and bad feelings. There are no 36 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 2: such thing. Emotions are nothing more than reactions to stimuli 37 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,559 Speaker 2: that we have sensed by our primitive brains turned into 38 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 2: the universal language of emotions. 39 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: Fear. 40 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 2: Anger discussed sadness, interest, joy, etc. In the limbic system 41 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 2: of the brain to give us a signal about what's 42 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 2: going on. If you have particularly acute negative emotionality, which 43 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 2: is called negative aff high negative affect, and by the way, 44 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 2: people watching Bloomberg tend to have high negative affect. How 45 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 2: do I know this. Twenty five percent of the population 46 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 2: has especially high positive and negative effect. They're high affect people, 47 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: sixty five percent of CEOs and entrepreneurs. So this is 48 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 2: one of the things that a lot of people watching us. Yeah, 49 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: you're still going to be grumpy, but you're going to 50 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 2: understand the meaning of the grumpiness and use it to 51 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 2: learn and grow in life. 52 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 1: Is there anything more important in the end than happiness? 53 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 2: That's a debate that philosophers and scientists have been having 54 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 2: for millennia. As a matter of fact, him Aristotle talked 55 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 2: about that. Thomas Aquinas in twelve sixty five said, does 56 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: anybody desire anything other than happiness? I say that he 57 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: does not. But it depends on what happiness means. And 58 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 2: so if you're thinking about it as a positive feeling, 59 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 2: then there are lots of things that are more important 60 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 2: than that, if you define it correctly. Maybe not. 61 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: In a sentence that's been called the most famous sentence 62 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 1: in the English language written by Thomas Jefferson and the 63 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: Declaration Deependance, he ends it by saying that what people 64 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: should want is life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. 65 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: He didn't really define happiness. But are you surprised or 66 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,119 Speaker 1: are you surprised that he would put pursuit of happiness 67 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 1: is among the most important things in the world. 68 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: Is revolutionary. As a matter of fact, it's those words 69 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 2: were cribbed from the Virginia Declaration of Rights written by 70 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 2: George Mason some years earlier, and Mason talked about in 71 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: the Virginia Declaration about life, liberty, and the pursuit of property. Well, 72 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 2: almost certainly in a conversation with Benjamin Franklin. We don't 73 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 2: know for sure, but this is the supposition, because Benjamin 74 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 2: Franklin is behind all of this interesting and sort of 75 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 2: subversive language about the new American Republic. He's substituted in 76 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 2: this pursuit of happiness, in this idea that you are 77 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: the captain of your own destiny in this new nation. 78 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 2: You get to define what this means and then go 79 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: after it. And we're going to be about opportunity without 80 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 2: any guarantees. And by the way, that's the country I 81 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 2: still want to live in. 82 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: One are the key elements to being happy? And I 83 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: suppose I'm a person who wants to be happy? What 84 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: are the key things that make somebody happy? 85 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 2: Stop thinking it's a feeling. It's not a feeling. People 86 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 2: will define it as I can't quite put words to it, 87 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: but I know and I feel it. No, you can't. 88 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: Feelings are evidence that your limbic system is working properly, 89 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 2: and you can have a lot of negative emotions and 90 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 2: be a very happy person. In the same way, by 91 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 2: the way that the smell of your turkey is not 92 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: your Thanksgiving dinner. Feelings are evidence of happiness. They are 93 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 2: not happiness itself, and so stop looking for feelings number one. 94 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 2: Number two, figure out what happiness actually is. So if 95 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 2: I say, what is your Thanksgiving dinner? There's lots of 96 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 2: ways to define that, but one way is protein, carbohydrates, 97 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 2: and fat. Those are macro nutrients. That's a decomposition of 98 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 2: all food for better longevity and health, which is another 99 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 2: big interest in area of research of mine. So what 100 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 2: are the macro nutrients of happiness? They are enjoyment, satisfaction, 101 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 2: and meaning. Those are the three things to pursue go. 102 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: Through each one. Enjoyment. What does enjoyment mean? 103 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 2: Enjoyment is not pleasure. That's a big mistake that people 104 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 2: often make, which is just feeling good. That's a limbic phenomenon. 105 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: It's parts of your ventral tegmntal area and the ventral 106 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 2: stratum are tapped to make you feel good. That's not it. 107 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 2: If you're looking for that is your life's goal, you'll 108 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 2: wind up in rehab if you're lucky. What enjoyment is 109 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 2: is it takes pleasure. It adds two things to make 110 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 2: them fully conscious and mediated by the prefilled loal cortext 111 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 2: pleasure plus people plus memory. That's what you want, and 112 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 2: that's the kind of life you need. You need to 113 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 2: be able to manage your pleasures in a way that's 114 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 2: social and memorable so that you can have a life 115 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 2: that's in an ongoing way, something that you consider to 116 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 2: be enjoyable. That's the macroninturiant Number one, all right. Number 117 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 2: two is what satisfaction. Satisfaction is the joy that you 118 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: get from an accomplishment after struggle. You've struggled a lot. 119 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 2: I mean, you've had a lot of ups and downs 120 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 2: over the course of your career. But the great source 121 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 2: of satisfaction is after all that struggle. The sweetness came 122 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 2: with all the stuff that Carlisle's done, all the stuff 123 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 2: that this show has done. But if it actually had 124 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 2: been easy, it wouldn't be sweet, which is one of 125 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: the funny things about humanity. My dog doesn't want to 126 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,679 Speaker 2: struggle for his rewards, eat lying down if he could. 127 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 2: We on the other hand, you know, when I go 128 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 2: to a great entrepreneur like you, and if I were 129 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 2: doing the interview and you were the interview e, and 130 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: I said, okay, tell me the secrets to all this, 131 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 2: you'd tell me hard things that had happened, and setbacks 132 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 2: that had happened, and disappointments that had happened. Because the hardness, 133 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: the difficulty, the suffering is actually part of the sweetness. 134 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 2: That's satisfaction. 135 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: What's the third element, meaning, And that's the big one. 136 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 2: That's the next book that I'm writing. It's called The 137 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 2: Meaning of Your Life, the Finding Purpose in an age 138 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 2: of emptiness, because that's the crisis of today for particularly 139 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 2: for adults hundred thirty five, is that their life feels 140 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 2: empty and meaningless. And this is what lies behind the 141 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:38,960 Speaker 2: mental health crisis. 142 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 1: Now you've written that younger people today are not as 143 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: happy as their parents were. That's part because of social 144 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: media and things like that makes people isolated. 145 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 2: So it's a complicated thing. But there's basically a climate 146 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 2: and weather problem that we find and I don't mean 147 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 2: that literally. The climate of happiness is all about faith 148 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 2: and philosophy and life, about family, life, about friendship, and 149 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 2: about seeing your life as a calling. Your work is 150 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 2: a calling that is meaningful and serves other people, and 151 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 2: all of those have been in a client That's the 152 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 2: climate of happiness has been ticking down since about nineteen ninety. 153 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 2: Then the weather, the hurricanes, and happiness have been really threefold. 154 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 2: Number one was the advent of social media and screens 155 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 2: in everybody's lives in two thousand and eight, twenty nine, 156 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 2: twenty ten, which has done just raised absolute havoc in 157 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 2: the brains of everybody under thirty five years old. That's 158 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 2: what my New Meaning book is about, is about how 159 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 2: we use our brains differently, and it's vacating the parts 160 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: of our brain that we need to assess questions of meaning. 161 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 2: The second is polarization, where baby boomers have tried to 162 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 2: conscript young adults into their culture war, particularly on campuses. 163 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 2: You should feel aggrieved, You're a victim. Everybody's trying to 164 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 2: ruin the world. You need to be angry and afraid 165 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 2: and last but not least, of course, is what happened 166 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 2: with the really misbegotten reaction to the coronavirus epidemic, which 167 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 2: is to send everybody home, make sure that people don't 168 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 2: interact socially. And that was cat for happiness. 169 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: And then you wrote a book on happiness. 170 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: During the coronavirus epidemic. It was it was my it 171 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: was my COVID project. 172 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: That was Strength to Strength, from strength to. 173 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 2: Strength, which comes from the eighty fourth psalm Michel del 174 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: Kail and Hebrew, may you go from strength to strength, 175 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 2: which is an ancient Judaic blessing, of. 176 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: Course, and it became a number one New York Times bestseller. 177 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was unexpected. 178 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: So somebody calls you about this. She read the book 179 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: and said, why don't we do a book together. That 180 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: was Oprah Winfrey. 181 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 2: That was Oprah Winfrey. 182 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: Had you ever met her before? 183 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 2: No? No, no. And what happened was that she was 184 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 2: reading my column during the coronavirus epidemic every Thursday in 185 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 2: the Atlantic and she never left her place in Montecita, 186 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 2: California for a couple of years. But she was learning 187 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 2: and reading. She's a voracious reader. And she said she 188 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 2: was learning a lot from it. She wanted to meet 189 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 2: that guy. So when the book came out from Strength 190 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 2: to Strength in February of twenty twenty two, she literally 191 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: read it on the first day and called me, hell, oh, 192 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 2: this is Oprah Winfrey. And I said and I said, yeah, 193 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 2: and this is Batman. I mean, turned out it was 194 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: Oprah Winfrey. 195 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:01,959 Speaker 1: The book came out, and it also was a number 196 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: one New York Times bestseller. Yeah, and its title is. 197 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 2: It's Build the Life you want, The Art and Science 198 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 2: of getting Happier. 199 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: So you have another book coming out very shortly, probably 200 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: by the time this airs, it'll be out The Happiness Files. 201 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: What is that about? 202 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 2: That's an edited volume of my thirty five most popular 203 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 2: columns in the Atlantic about work and life. So the 204 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: whole idea it's being put out by the Harvard Business 205 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 2: Review Press, is that your life is a startup. That's 206 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 2: the most important enterprise. People think of a company as 207 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 2: a startup, but that's just an extension of who you 208 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 2: are as a person. It's a cultural phenomenon and a 209 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 2: behavioral phenomenon. As a matter of fact. The way to 210 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 2: think about it, if to live the best life, is 211 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 2: to say you, David incorporated your startup. The enterprise is 212 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 2: your life, and that means you need to take risk 213 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 2: appropriately and search and be in search of the true fortune, 214 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: which is love and happiness. If you treat it your 215 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 2: life like a startup, your life gets better and it 216 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 2: becomes more successful. And it's thirty five essays that talk 217 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 2: about exactly how to do that. Every chapter. It's intended 218 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 2: to be read over about a month, because it about 219 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: thirty five essays, and each chapter gives you the science, 220 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 2: the idea, and the science, and then it says, do 221 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 2: these three things, which is about behavioral change, all of them. 222 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 2: I have tried every column I write. I'm ten weeks 223 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 2: ahead on my Atlantic column, and I'm trying all the 224 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 2: things that I suggest to make sure that there's sound. 225 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 2: I'm my own guinea pig. And if it doesn't work, 226 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 2: I don't write it, I don't publish it. 227 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: How does somebody who's an expert on happiness grow into that? 228 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: Let's talk about your background for a moment. So where 229 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: were you born? 230 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:30,319 Speaker 2: Spoke Anne Washington? 231 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: And what did your parents do? 232 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 2: My father was a lifelong college professor. He was a mathematician, 233 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 2: a PhD biostatistician, so he was a quant guy. 234 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: And your mother what did she do? 235 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 2: She was an artist. My mother was a good amateur 236 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 2: musician and serious about that, but really she was a 237 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 2: watercolorist of some renowned in the Pacific Northwest. 238 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: And when you were growing up, did you say, I 239 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: want to be an expert on happiness or what did 240 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: you want to do as a boy? 241 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 2: I wanted to be the world's greatest front shorn player. 242 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: That's what I wanted. I was naturally good at music, 243 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:00,319 Speaker 2: and I learned this by about the age of four. 244 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 2: I learned to read music before I learned to read words, 245 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 2: and I had a natural aptitude for it. Started on 246 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 2: piano at four, after a little bit of violin, and 247 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 2: then by eight I started the French horn. I was 248 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,719 Speaker 2: really good at it. I got a lot of acclamation, 249 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 2: I got some praise and appreciation from my parents, and 250 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 2: I realized I like getting attention from adults, positive attention 251 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 2: from adults. So I stuck with it. 252 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: And did people say, this guy is going to be 253 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: one of the great French horn players of all time. 254 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 2: Well, I certainly hoped so, and a lot of people 255 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 2: had a lot of faith that I had a tremendous 256 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: amount of potential so I was going to go to 257 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 2: conservatory and then go pro. That was the idea. 258 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: So you graduate from high school and you said to 259 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,319 Speaker 1: your parents, I guess I'm not going to college. I'm 260 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: going to go be a French horn player. What did 261 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: your academic father say. 262 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 2: Well, I went to college for a year. I went 263 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 2: to the California Institute of the Arts. So I was 264 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 2: going to study with my teacher, somebody I had met 265 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 2: in previous summers, a great frenchhorn player, one of the 266 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: great soloists of the time. And it didn't really work out. 267 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 2: It turns out to the right strategy for college is 268 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 2: not to drop all your required classes. Tried to tell 269 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 2: my kids that at this point, but the result is 270 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 2: I was well dropped out, kicked out, splitting hairs at 271 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 2: this point. I made it ten months, all. 272 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: Right, you made it ten months. Then need to say 273 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: to your parents, guess what, I'm going to be a 274 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 1: French worn player for life. 275 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I was actually transferring to the Curtis Institute 276 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 2: of Music in Philadelphia, which is sort of the elite 277 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 2: music conservatory, and I was very very lucky to get 278 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 2: a spot. 279 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: Great place. 280 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 2: It is a great place, and during the summer before 281 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 2: I was going to go there, I was playing at 282 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 2: the Marlborough Music Festival with Rudolph Serkin and some of 283 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 2: the great chamber musicians at the time, and I was 284 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 2: offered a job playing chamber music with a brass quintet 285 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 2: out of Maryland, and so I took the job instead 286 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 2: of going back to school and went pro nineteen. 287 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: And then you ultimately moved to Spain. 288 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was on tour. I did that for 289 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 2: about six years, making very little money but having a 290 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 2: great time and learning a lot. I also toured for 291 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 2: a couple of years during that time with a great 292 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 2: jazz guitar player named Charlie Bird, who was, you know, 293 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 2: the original American originator of the bossa nova style, et cetera. 294 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 2: So I was on a concert tour playing chamber music 295 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 2: in the Burgundy region of France in the summer of 296 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight and I met a girl who was 297 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 2: also was studying music and actually at a concert. I 298 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 2: was playing the concert and there was a girl in 299 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 2: the front row smiling at me, and I thought, well, 300 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 2: that's not normal. I should check that out. So afterward 301 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 2: I introduced myself. Turned out she didn't speak a word 302 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 2: of English, and she wasn't French. Turns out she was 303 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,439 Speaker 2: Spanish Catalan as a matter of fact, from Barcelona. I 304 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 2: learned that not a word of English, we didn't know 305 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,719 Speaker 2: a word in common. So I did the right thing 306 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 2: and asked her out. And how did you know if 307 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 2: she said yes? I well, because I got a translator 308 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 2: said yeah, she'd love to have dinner with you. And 309 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 2: so that was an odd dinner, full of gesticulations and 310 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 2: hand gestures, etc. But we were twenty four years old. 311 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 2: And then I went home and I called my dad 312 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 2: and I said, I think I met the girl I'm 313 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 2: going to marry. And he said, really, that's great, can't 314 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 2: wait to meet her. I said, I have some difficulties here. 315 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 2: I mean, she doesn't speak a word of English, she 316 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 2: doesn't live in the United States, and she has no 317 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 2: idea we're going to get married. He said, well, you 318 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 2: better get a plan, son, and so I did. I 319 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 2: was living in New York at the time, barely making 320 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 2: against meet, and I started looking at different opportunities, and 321 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 2: through sheer serendipity, I was offered a couple of months 322 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 2: later a job in the Barcelona Symphony as the associate 323 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 2: principal French horn and I said, ah, sign from God. 324 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 2: I moved to Barcelona and worked on closing the deal. Still, 325 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 2: it took me two years to convince her though, David, So. 326 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 1: Did you get married two years later or something? Yeah? 327 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, two years later. It took me. I was you know, 328 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: I had to work on it a long time. After all, 329 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 2: Europeans are very modern and they don't believe in marriage, 330 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 2: so it took it took a good deal of convincing. 331 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: I should point out, you're still married to her. Yeah, 332 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: it is now married. 333 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 2: Thirty four, thirty four or parents of three in a 334 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 2: couple of months, grandparents of four. 335 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: Is having a relationship with another person more likely to 336 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: produce happiness or more likely to produce divorce? 337 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 2: Well, it it depends on the relationship. Your results may vary. 338 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 2: As they say in the in the you know, the 339 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 2: ads for financial products and pharmaceuticals. The truth is that 340 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 2: a good marriage is the single biggest predictor of the 341 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 2: happiest possible life. But a bad marriage works in the 342 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 2: other direction, to be sure, and so that's why it's 343 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 2: that's the most important investment decision anybody watching us will 344 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 2: ever make. 345 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: Where did you start teaching academically. 346 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 2: I started in Georgia State. So I finished my PhD 347 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety eight, and Georgia State University in Atlanta 348 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 2: was the first place that hired me, and I did 349 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 2: three years there, and then I moved to Syracuse, which 350 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: was in public policy, was and arguably still as the 351 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 2: top school in public policy. 352 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: In the company. Maxwell School, the Maxwell School exactly right, 353 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: So you teach there for ten years. 354 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 2: I taught there for I taught it, Georgia State for 355 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 2: three and Syracuse for seven and a half. 356 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: Seven okay, so ten years as an academic, ten and 357 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: a half years Maxwell. Then somebody decides to they want 358 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: you to be the head of AEI. But why would 359 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: you be qualified to be the head of the American 360 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: Enterprise SINS too? 361 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 2: I was not qualified and I was clearly not qualified 362 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 2: for that job, and it was I was sort of 363 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 2: the last chance saloon, I think, for the board of 364 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 2: directors that the American enterprisingers to do. At the time, 365 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 2: I was a visiting scholar at AI, and I had 366 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 2: always aspired to do more. AI is the greatest thing 367 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 2: tank in America. It's based on the idea that the 368 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 2: free enterprise system has done more to lift people up 369 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 2: from the margins of society than any other single idea 370 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 2: in history, and that the United States at its best 371 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 2: is a gift to the world. 372 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: All Right, So you took that job, you became the CEO, 373 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 1: and you stayed there for ten. 374 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 2: Years eleven almost a lot of ten and a half. 375 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: So after eleven years you say, Okay, I now want 376 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: to do something else. Why do you decide to do 377 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: something else after eleven years is going very well? 378 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 2: I had figured out by that time that my career 379 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: is best when I take it down to the studs 380 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 2: every decade and start again. That's when I'm most interested. 381 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 2: That's when I can funge the skills that i've as 382 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 2: a leader, as a professional, as a person in my soul. 383 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 2: I can take them to the next thing and do 384 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 2: really well with a lot of inspiration. 385 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: Most people, before they leave a job, they already have 386 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: another job lined up. Yeah, you left AI when you 387 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: were at the top of your game, but you didn't 388 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: have anything lined up. 389 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 2: Not really. I mean I had some ideas, maybe I'll 390 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 2: go back to academia. But the whole point is basically this. 391 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: I had a heart to heart conversation one of my 392 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 2: best friends is your partner Dan Dan Yellow at Carlisle 393 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 2: and I said to him, look, I'm feeling a little 394 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 2: I'm mitching a little bit. I'm thinking about new things. 395 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 2: And how do you think about your career as a CEO? 396 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 2: How do you think about finishing your career as a CEO? 397 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 2: I was fifty five years old, fifty four years old 398 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 2: at the time. And he said he thought about it, 399 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 2: and he said something very wise to me that's probably 400 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 2: useful for people watching us right now. He says, when 401 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: it comes to ending, finishing up as a leader, especially 402 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 2: as a business leader, you've got two choices. You can 403 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 2: leave before you're ready, or you can leave on somebody 404 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 2: else's terms. You choose, choose wisely. And I thought to myself, Yep, 405 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 2: I'm not ready, and that means it's time to go. 406 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: What did you teach initially at Harvard? 407 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 2: So I came in and I taught in the first 408 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 2: semester of the Kennedy School nonprofit management, which is something 409 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 2: that I've taught a lot about. I've written a textbook 410 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 2: on that, and that's really about how to create societal change, 411 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 2: how to create a better society in the basis of 412 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 2: non governmental, nonprofit activity, but it's really about how you're 413 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 2: going to transform society outside of the world of government 414 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 2: or for profit businesses. And that went really well. But 415 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 2: then when I went over across the river to the 416 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 2: Business School for my first semester there in the spring, 417 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 2: I introduced I created a class called Leadership and Happiness, 418 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 2: and that really took off because that was where my 419 00:17:58,320 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 2: heart was. 420 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: You're teaching this course and all of a sudden, people 421 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: by word of mouth say this guy is interesting and 422 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:05,719 Speaker 1: maybe we can learn how to be happier, and so 423 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: the class goes from a few people to a lot 424 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: of people. Right. 425 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, we filled it the first time. I think we 426 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 2: had seventy two people as a full class the first time, 427 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 2: but it was clear that even by the second year 428 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 2: we could fill two sections of ninety even with a 429 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 2: waiting list, because it's a different kind of class than 430 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 2: what they typically get. On the first day of class, 431 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 2: I say, look, you think that if you have money, power, pleasure, 432 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,360 Speaker 2: and fame, then you'll get happiness for free, and it's 433 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 2: a lie, and you know it. The right solution is 434 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 2: for you to search for happiness and then you'll have 435 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 2: the success that you truly crave. That's what this class 436 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 2: is all about. 437 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: But if you are a person who's an expert on happiness, 438 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: you can't ever be grumpy. I mean, if you ever 439 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: get in fights with people because you're not in a 440 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: good mood, or you have to be happy all the time. 441 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 2: Well, one of the reasons that I study happiness is 442 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 2: I want to lash myself to the mast. I want 443 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 2: to hold myself accountable to be the person that I 444 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 2: want to be. Not that I'll have to be happy 445 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 2: happy all the time, but it's not right for me 446 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 2: to display my own happiness in such a way that 447 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 2: brings other people down. That's an unethical thing to do. So, 448 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 2: you know, being a jerk in an airport. That's truly 449 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 2: off brand for me, and it's something that I try 450 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 2: to make sure that I never do. Well. Being is 451 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: a combination of happiness and unhappiness, and they're not opposites. 452 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 2: They're actually mediated in different parts of the brain because 453 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 2: they have different purposes. My problem is not low happiness. 454 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 2: My problem is high unhappiness, which is often the case 455 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 2: with people in my line of work. For that matter, 456 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 2: your line of work. So for me, my particular challenge 457 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 2: is making sure that I'm very serious about managing my 458 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 2: negative affect every single day, and I do that with 459 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 2: the science that I've been studying over the past well decades. 460 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: At this point, do you ever get mad and somebody 461 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: just yell and lose your temper or you don't do that? 462 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 2: Well, I don't do that very often, and part of 463 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 2: that is because I've learned how to manage my limbic 464 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 2: system so it doesn't manage me. That's getting as much 465 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 2: space as I can between what I feel and what 466 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 2: I do. That's called metacognition. 467 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: Many people put themselves forward as leaders. Presumably they want 468 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 1: to be a leader because it makes them happy to 469 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: be a leader rather than a follower. But how do 470 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: you define leadership and as leadership if you have, it 471 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: make you happier than if you're a follower. 472 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 2: So that's a good question, and it's a complicated question 473 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 2: because there are a lot of leaders in business who 474 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 2: are actually unhappier after they ascend to the corner office. 475 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 2: I see this constantly. The number one emotion that people 476 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,239 Speaker 2: feel in the first two years as a brand new 477 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 2: CEO's anger, which is not what people expect. It's like, 478 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 2: you know, hey, man, if I get the CEO job, 479 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 2: I'm finally going to have achieved everything I've always wanted. 480 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 2: And it turns out that it's really really tough for 481 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 2: the most talented people in the country in the economy. 482 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 2: They will never be lifted to the level of incompetence. 483 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 2: There is no Peter principle. There's kind of a striver 484 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 2: Peter principle next to it, which is that they will 485 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 2: be if they let themselves be lifted up to the 486 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 2: level of unhappiness because they go beyond what they really 487 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 2: enjoy doing where they can get flow. And being a 488 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: leader is hard because there's rarely flow. It is a 489 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 2: service profession. Leadership is about lifting people up. That's what 490 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 2: it's all about, and earning it because you've lifted other 491 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 2: people up to become their best selves. 492 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 1: So if I say to somebody, I've just interviewed Arthur Brooks, 493 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: I spend forty five minutes with him, and somebody says, 494 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: I don't have time to watch it. Give me the 495 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: one minute version. How can I be happy? 496 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 2: So the world says that for you to be happy, 497 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 2: and this is based on mother nature. This is not capitalism. 498 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 2: Mother nature doesn't care if you're happy. So she imposes 499 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 2: this on you. She says, for you to have the 500 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 2: best life, you need to love things, get a lot 501 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: of them, use people. They're there for your advancement and comforts, 502 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 2: and worship yourself because you're the center of the universe. 503 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 2: That's what the world tells you. That's what your nature 504 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 2: tells you. That's wrong. Happiness comes from changing the verbs 505 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 2: and the nouns. The right happiness formula and this is 506 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 2: scientifically validated. But because we've talked about it in this show, 507 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 2: is number one. Love people, use things, and worship the 508 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 2: divine as you understand it. And if you do that, 509 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 2: you're on the right track. 510 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: Why do you decide to go to Harvard among all 511 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: these things you probably had available to you. 512 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: Well, you know, academia is my natural home. I wanted 513 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 2: to go back and do something that was going to 514 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 2: be really positive and meaningful for society, and so that 515 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 2: required what we Catholic people call discernment, and discernment is 516 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 2: this or discernment of spirits, is trying to figure out 517 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 2: what's what you're meant to do to actually find out 518 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 2: you're calling. And there's an ancient way of doing this. 519 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 2: There's a technique for doing this that people watching us 520 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 2: can can do whether they're Catholic or not religious or 521 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 2: not as a matter of fact, and that's called a pilgrimage. 522 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 2: So the whole idea is if you walk a long 523 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 2: way when you have a single question, you're more likely 524 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 2: to find it. There's actually science behind with this is sound. 525 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 2: I walk the community Santiago in the summer of twenty 526 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 2: nineteen after I left AI, and by the time I 527 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 2: finished walking a few hundred miles, I wrote a mission 528 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 2: statement for myself, which is, as a behavioral scientist, I'm 529 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 2: going to spend the rest of my life lifting people 530 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 2: up and bringing them together in bonds of happiness and 531 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: love using science and ideas. And so that's what I 532 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 2: decided to do at Harvard. 533 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: What is next for you? What next world do you 534 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: want to conquer? 535 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: So this is a good question, and at this point 536 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 2: in my life there's a little bit less central planning, 537 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 2: there's a lot more serendipity. I'm thinking about the opportunities 538 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 2: that come my way to live up to my mission. 539 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 2: My mission is to lift people up and bring them 540 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 2: together in bonds and happiness and love using my skills 541 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 2: science and ideas. So if there's an opportunity for me 542 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,439 Speaker 2: to do that at scale, I want to do it. 543 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 2: I want a billion people to understand the happiness science. 544 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 2: That's what I want. That's what changes the world is 545 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 2: when people have aspirations for their own life, for something better. 546 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 2: The reason that the United States is such a great country, 547 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 2: is such a successful countries because people had personal aspiration 548 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 2: for something better for their own lives. And that's what 549 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 2: I want, that entrepreneurial notion that I can build a 550 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 2: life with greater happiness, and I have to find David, 551 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 2: this is my challenge. I have to find better and 552 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 2: better ways to scale this. 553 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You 554 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 1: can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or 555 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: wherever you listen.