1 00:00:01,340 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,380 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Frey. 3 00:00:14,620 --> 00:00:18,189 Speaker 1: And I'm Tracy V. Wilson. So this is part two 4 00:00:19,310 --> 00:00:25,910 Speaker 1: of our discussion of Robert Moses, who is unarguably responsible 5 00:00:26,610 --> 00:00:28,990 Speaker 1: for a lot of the public works projects that form 6 00:00:29,010 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: the infrastructure of New York. It's also unarguable that he's 7 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:36,700 Speaker 1: easy to argue over, because a lot of people still 8 00:00:36,740 --> 00:00:40,300 Speaker 1: do it. We'll get to some more of that. Today, though, 9 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:41,900 Speaker 1: we are going to talk about the second half of 10 00:00:41,940 --> 00:00:45,820 Speaker 1: his career, when he was more powerful than ever, but 11 00:00:45,900 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 1: also he found himself in sort of a constant state 12 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,699 Speaker 1: of controversy and a lot of push and pull with 13 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: various politicians, as well as the public. If you haven't 14 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,020 Speaker 1: listened to part one... You should go back and do 15 00:00:58,050 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: that because otherwise you'll be a little bit lost and 16 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: it really won't make sense where we're picking up. Where 17 00:01:02,940 --> 00:01:05,940 Speaker 1: we left off from the last episode, we talked at 18 00:01:06,100 --> 00:01:09,740 Speaker 1: length about an article that Robert Moses wrote that was 19 00:01:09,819 --> 00:01:13,030 Speaker 1: published in The Atlantic in 1945. It's kind of at 20 00:01:13,069 --> 00:01:16,370 Speaker 1: the midpoint of his career as a city planner. And 21 00:01:16,390 --> 00:01:20,270 Speaker 1: that article is often pointed to as important in that 22 00:01:20,350 --> 00:01:22,910 Speaker 1: it shows a real shift in the way Moses thought 23 00:01:22,930 --> 00:01:27,020 Speaker 1: about city planning. He had started his career as a 24 00:01:27,060 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 1: much more idealistic person, and it appears at this writing 25 00:01:31,700 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: to be in a more conservative headspace in regards to 26 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,729 Speaker 1: his work. Sometimes this is talked about as though he 27 00:01:39,790 --> 00:01:43,929 Speaker 1: had an almost sudden change after the war, but really, 28 00:01:43,970 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: when you read the whole thing... It conveys the mindset 29 00:01:47,660 --> 00:01:50,620 Speaker 1: of a person who has spent decades having to negotiate 30 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,860 Speaker 1: and maneuver and deal with difficult obstacles. And it's also 31 00:01:54,910 --> 00:01:59,690 Speaker 1: a bit funny that he speaks negatively about perfectionists, because 32 00:01:59,830 --> 00:02:03,590 Speaker 1: in his years working with Bel Moskowitz, who we talked 33 00:02:03,630 --> 00:02:07,610 Speaker 1: about last time, he was described as having been too theoretical, 34 00:02:08,190 --> 00:02:13,260 Speaker 1: obsessed with perfectionism, and unwilling to compromise. It's almost as 35 00:02:13,300 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 1: though he's criticizing his own past self and some of 36 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,030 Speaker 1: his rhetoric. Fiorello LaGuardia, the mayor that he had worked 37 00:02:21,070 --> 00:02:23,890 Speaker 1: with for a chunk of his career, retired from politics 38 00:02:24,290 --> 00:02:27,209 Speaker 1: the year after that Atlantic article came out. That article 39 00:02:27,250 --> 00:02:32,530 Speaker 1: came out in 1945. LaGuardia retired in 1946. And he 40 00:02:32,550 --> 00:02:36,100 Speaker 1: was replaced by William O'Dwyer, who made Moses the New 41 00:02:36,139 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: York construction coordinator. That was a job that came with 42 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: a great deal of power and a direct line to Washington, D.C. 43 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,420 Speaker 1: So in addition to all of the lobbying he had 44 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: been doing earlier, he just had the ear of a 45 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: lot more politicians. And perhaps more importantly, it gave him 46 00:02:52,940 --> 00:02:57,870 Speaker 1: authority over every single public construction project in the city. 47 00:02:58,770 --> 00:03:02,490 Speaker 1: Here's the thing. Moses talked a really good game in 48 00:03:02,510 --> 00:03:07,139 Speaker 1: the 1940s about the way other people had created rundown 49 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: neighborhoods in New York, but he also did plenty of 50 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: his own damage. Three years after his Atlantic article ran 51 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:18,250 Speaker 1: in 1948, he started work on the Cross Bronx Expressway. 52 00:03:18,810 --> 00:03:22,410 Speaker 1: This project is one of many in which Moses prioritized 53 00:03:22,450 --> 00:03:26,850 Speaker 1: the need for roadways and car traffic over pedestrians and 54 00:03:26,990 --> 00:03:31,610 Speaker 1: neighborhoods and public transit. So the Cross Bronx Expressway is 55 00:03:31,669 --> 00:03:34,770 Speaker 1: a seven-mile stretch of road that, as the name implies, 56 00:03:34,910 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: crosses right through the Bronx, which was already a heavily 57 00:03:37,790 --> 00:03:41,460 Speaker 1: developed area. And to make that project happen, a lot 58 00:03:41,500 --> 00:03:45,900 Speaker 1: of people lost their homes. Dozens of apartment buildings were 59 00:03:45,940 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: torn down to make way for the expressway, displacing hundreds 60 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,710 Speaker 1: of families. Streets were also cut short in a lot 61 00:03:53,750 --> 00:03:59,260 Speaker 1: of situations, creating numerous new dead ends. And this fragmentation 62 00:03:59,420 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: of those neighborhoods has been cited as a reason that 63 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,940 Speaker 1: crime rates in those areas increased in the years that followed. 64 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: That was also a pattern in a lot of road projects, 65 00:04:10,220 --> 00:04:13,490 Speaker 1: that the neighborhoods that were affected in this way were 66 00:04:13,540 --> 00:04:16,930 Speaker 1: often the neighborhoods with the least resources to try to 67 00:04:16,950 --> 00:04:19,750 Speaker 1: fight it and advocate for themselves. So neighborhoods that were 68 00:04:19,770 --> 00:04:25,310 Speaker 1: already struggling, neighborhoods with a more predominantly non-white population, all 69 00:04:25,330 --> 00:04:29,900 Speaker 1: of that. But Moses really seemed to believe that more 70 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:34,339 Speaker 1: roads were generally better for everyone. In his Atlantic article, 71 00:04:34,500 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: he had said that it had taken almost two decades 72 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:42,220 Speaker 1: to convince opponents of his plans, quote, that an arterial improvement, 73 00:04:42,300 --> 00:04:45,230 Speaker 1: whether it be a parkway for restricted travel or an 74 00:04:45,310 --> 00:04:48,810 Speaker 1: express route open to mixed traffic, is not simply a 75 00:04:48,890 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: strip of pavement in a gasoline gully. but a genuine 76 00:04:52,940 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: shoestring or ribbon improvement of the entire area through which 77 00:04:57,020 --> 00:05:00,570 Speaker 1: it passes. It brings with it benefits not only to 78 00:05:00,589 --> 00:05:03,550 Speaker 1: those who travel in cars, but to the thousands who 79 00:05:03,670 --> 00:05:07,570 Speaker 1: live along it or do business or seek recreation there. 80 00:05:08,310 --> 00:05:10,109 Speaker 1: So it comes across in his writing, at least, that 81 00:05:10,130 --> 00:05:12,900 Speaker 1: he genuinely thought he was making the best choices for 82 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: New Yorkers and the future of the city. But that 83 00:05:15,779 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: does stand in contrast to the often really callous ways 84 00:05:19,700 --> 00:05:22,870 Speaker 1: that he carried that vision out. We're going to come 85 00:05:22,930 --> 00:05:27,029 Speaker 1: back to his slum clearance initiatives in a moment. So 86 00:05:27,110 --> 00:05:30,250 Speaker 1: in the 1950s, there was another conflict that had a 87 00:05:30,290 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: major impact on Major League Baseball. So at the time, 88 00:05:34,210 --> 00:05:38,180 Speaker 1: Walter O'Malley owned the Brooklyn Dodgers, and O'Malley thought that 89 00:05:38,300 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: Ebbets Field no longer met the needs of the team 90 00:05:41,100 --> 00:05:44,940 Speaker 1: and its fans. According to Moses, he offered to build 91 00:05:45,020 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: O'Malley a new stadium at Flushing Meadows in Queens, but 92 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: O'Malley was insistent that he wanted a new stadium in Brooklyn, 93 00:05:52,779 --> 00:05:55,830 Speaker 1: and he specifically wanted it at the intersection of Atlantic 94 00:05:55,970 --> 00:05:59,530 Speaker 1: Avenue and Flatbush Avenue. And at the end of the 95 00:05:59,529 --> 00:06:03,670 Speaker 1: 1957 season, O'Malley announced that the team was moving to 96 00:06:03,710 --> 00:06:07,910 Speaker 1: Los Angeles. When Robert Moses told this story to a reporter, 97 00:06:08,029 --> 00:06:11,650 Speaker 1: he claimed that the whole time O'Malley had actually already 98 00:06:11,690 --> 00:06:14,910 Speaker 1: been talking to Los Angeles about moving there, and that 99 00:06:14,950 --> 00:06:18,969 Speaker 1: the disagreement over stadium placement was just a pretext to go. 100 00:06:19,790 --> 00:06:22,740 Speaker 1: But a lot of people blamed Moses for the loss 101 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,460 Speaker 1: of their baseball team, and he found himself on the 102 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,219 Speaker 1: outs with a lot of New Yorkers after the Dodgers 103 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: announced that relocation. Additionally, his ongoing slum projects had become 104 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 1: more and more unpopular, and conflict over them reached a 105 00:06:36,900 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: fever pitch in 1959. Ten years before, Congress had passed 106 00:06:41,930 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: the U.S. Housing Act, which included a section called Title I, 107 00:06:46,730 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: Slum Clearance and Community Development and Redevelopment, This act provided 108 00:06:51,860 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: a billion dollars for loans to cities so the municipality 109 00:06:56,060 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: could purchase slums and land that was deemed blighted for 110 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: public or private redevelopment. It allotted an additional $ 100 million 111 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,810 Speaker 1: a year for five years to be issued as grants. 112 00:07:09,550 --> 00:07:12,490 Speaker 1: Disbursement of those funds was the work of the Housing 113 00:07:12,530 --> 00:07:15,730 Speaker 1: and Home Finance Agency. That agency was rolled up under 114 00:07:15,770 --> 00:07:18,380 Speaker 1: the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development in the 1960s. 115 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: So the intention of Title I was to get private 116 00:07:22,930 --> 00:07:27,570 Speaker 1: capital involved in the costly process of redevelopment. It enabled 117 00:07:27,590 --> 00:07:31,450 Speaker 1: municipalities to make deals on sales that would get investors 118 00:07:31,550 --> 00:07:35,110 Speaker 1: and developers interested and willing to spend their own money 119 00:07:35,690 --> 00:07:39,670 Speaker 1: on rehabbing depressed areas with the long-term goal that those 120 00:07:39,750 --> 00:07:43,980 Speaker 1: areas would then become generators of revenue for those private investors. 121 00:07:45,170 --> 00:07:48,170 Speaker 1: Robert Moses recognized that New York could potentially get a 122 00:07:48,210 --> 00:07:52,250 Speaker 1: hold of a lot of that federal funding. During the 1950s, 123 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: he and his team produced 26 brochures about slum clearance, 124 00:07:57,660 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: and each of them was about a specific neighborhood that 125 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:05,950 Speaker 1: he believed needed redevelopment. The brochures outlined the issues in 126 00:08:05,970 --> 00:08:09,490 Speaker 1: the neighborhood, and they included spreads of photographs showing the 127 00:08:09,510 --> 00:08:13,470 Speaker 1: problem areas, and they backed up everything with statistical information. 128 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,060 Speaker 1: And then these pamphlets were sent to the Board of 129 00:08:16,140 --> 00:08:19,290 Speaker 1: Estimate of the City of New York, the City Planning Commission, 130 00:08:19,710 --> 00:08:23,190 Speaker 1: the Federal Administrator of Title I, and the Federal Housing 131 00:08:23,270 --> 00:08:26,710 Speaker 1: and Home Finance Agency, all in an effort to make 132 00:08:26,770 --> 00:08:29,810 Speaker 1: the case to get some of that funding. We'll talk 133 00:08:29,830 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: more about the contents of these pamphlets after we pause 134 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:44,940 Speaker 1: for a sponsor break. Music In a 2014 paper published 135 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:49,530 Speaker 1: by the Journal of Planning History, researcher Temis Kronopoulos analyzed 136 00:08:49,570 --> 00:08:52,970 Speaker 1: the contents of those brochures that Robert Moses and his 137 00:08:53,010 --> 00:08:57,070 Speaker 1: team produced, paying close attention to the photographs that were included. 138 00:08:57,090 --> 00:09:00,900 Speaker 1: Kronopoulos notes that in using an aerial view to show 139 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: plans for these neighborhoods, Moses was able to present what 140 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: appeared to anybody that looked at it a tidy, modern, 141 00:09:08,540 --> 00:09:12,970 Speaker 1: and stylistically unified neighborhood. which offered a visual counter to 142 00:09:12,990 --> 00:09:15,710 Speaker 1: the way that the neighborhoods had grown in stages without 143 00:09:15,770 --> 00:09:19,090 Speaker 1: such plans. So when you looked at that very beautifully 144 00:09:19,210 --> 00:09:22,450 Speaker 1: drawn out concept design next to some of these photographs, 145 00:09:22,470 --> 00:09:26,910 Speaker 1: it was obvious which one looked better. Chronopolis writes, quote, 146 00:09:27,370 --> 00:09:31,570 Speaker 1: empty lots appeared 22 times in the brochures and represented 147 00:09:31,590 --> 00:09:36,300 Speaker 1: the most popular depiction of urban blight. They always implied 148 00:09:36,340 --> 00:09:39,990 Speaker 1: that a building was missing, that space was underutilized, and 149 00:09:40,010 --> 00:09:43,860 Speaker 1: that garbage ended up there. The paper notes 20 images 150 00:09:43,940 --> 00:09:46,460 Speaker 1: that show back alleys that often had trash on the 151 00:09:46,500 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: ground and clotheslines filled with clothes stretched between buildings. And 152 00:09:50,740 --> 00:09:53,330 Speaker 1: he actually notes that though the laundry in those images 153 00:09:53,380 --> 00:09:56,250 Speaker 1: shows that the residents cleaned their things, like that this was, 154 00:09:56,370 --> 00:09:59,970 Speaker 1: you know, an act of like maintaining hygiene, the composition 155 00:10:00,250 --> 00:10:02,770 Speaker 1: of the photos with the dark and dirty ground below 156 00:10:02,830 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 1: them overshadowed that. Then Chronopolis makes a really interesting point. 157 00:10:08,910 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: There are rarely any people in the brochure photographs. He notes, quote, 158 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: in this case, slum clearance was also an instrument of 159 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: social engineering. though the brochures emphasize the physical problem. On 160 00:10:23,470 --> 00:10:27,430 Speaker 1: June 29, 1959, the first in a series of four 161 00:10:27,550 --> 00:10:30,810 Speaker 1: articles written by journalist Wayne Phillips ran in the New 162 00:10:30,850 --> 00:10:34,130 Speaker 1: York Times. That article opened with, quote, New York City 163 00:10:34,170 --> 00:10:37,579 Speaker 1: will take title to six blocks of real estate south 164 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania Station tomorrow, and within a few hours will 165 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:45,050 Speaker 1: sell them for a cooperative housing development. The sale will 166 00:10:45,090 --> 00:10:48,510 Speaker 1: mark the start of the 14th Title I slum clearance 167 00:10:48,570 --> 00:10:52,390 Speaker 1: project undertaken here since the program was created 10 years 168 00:10:52,530 --> 00:10:56,610 Speaker 1: ago next month. Title I, which derives its name from 169 00:10:56,630 --> 00:10:59,910 Speaker 1: a section of the National Housing Act of 1949, has 170 00:11:00,010 --> 00:11:04,620 Speaker 1: been in that decade a source of constant civic controversy. 171 00:11:05,420 --> 00:11:08,100 Speaker 1: Not a little of the controversy has revolved around the 172 00:11:08,140 --> 00:11:12,140 Speaker 1: man who was chosen to direct the program here, Robert Moses. 173 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,290 Speaker 1: There were a lot. of accusations leveled over the course 174 00:11:16,309 --> 00:11:19,930 Speaker 1: of this series that laid out how there were things 175 00:11:19,990 --> 00:11:24,330 Speaker 1: that were really quite shady in terms of how Moses 176 00:11:24,370 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: seemed to operate that he wasn't sharing information with a 177 00:11:28,420 --> 00:11:30,340 Speaker 1: lot of people we'll talk about some of the specifics 178 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,510 Speaker 1: in just a moment It just kind of pointed to 179 00:11:33,570 --> 00:11:35,590 Speaker 1: the idea that he was involved with people he shouldn't 180 00:11:35,610 --> 00:11:37,809 Speaker 1: have been involved with, and he was handling money with 181 00:11:37,890 --> 00:11:41,030 Speaker 1: no oversight, and that it all just seemed really, really 182 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,500 Speaker 1: dicey to people. And in the wake of all of 183 00:11:43,540 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: these accusations, Mayor Wagner, whose father incidentally had been one 184 00:11:47,260 --> 00:11:50,150 Speaker 1: of the sponsors of the housing bill that included Title I, 185 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: did two things. So first, the mayor started asking questions 186 00:11:54,990 --> 00:11:58,390 Speaker 1: about Louis Ipocras, who was involved in the slum clearance 187 00:11:58,429 --> 00:12:01,790 Speaker 1: project in Harlem in as a corporate sponsor, like basically 188 00:12:01,850 --> 00:12:05,430 Speaker 1: his capital investment program was buying in to do the 189 00:12:05,470 --> 00:12:08,670 Speaker 1: redevelopment so that they could then make money and collect rents. 190 00:12:09,610 --> 00:12:12,380 Speaker 1: And then on July 8th, it was reported that Delaware's 191 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,780 Speaker 1: Republican Senator John J. Williams had asked federal housing officials 192 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,140 Speaker 1: to ban Pokras from any such projects due to his 193 00:12:21,260 --> 00:12:26,010 Speaker 1: organized crime connections. Mayor Wagner at that point had already 194 00:12:26,090 --> 00:12:29,530 Speaker 1: stated publicly that Pokras would never be permitted to sponsor 195 00:12:29,550 --> 00:12:33,180 Speaker 1: the redevelopment that he was currently working on or any 196 00:12:33,420 --> 00:12:37,980 Speaker 1: New York development going forward. Additionally, the mayor banned the 197 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: city from working with an architect that Moses really liked 198 00:12:41,250 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 1: to work with. That was Melvin E. Kessler. So Kessler 199 00:12:45,420 --> 00:12:48,540 Speaker 1: had been part of an earlier redevelopment on the Upper 200 00:12:48,580 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: West Side that had sold land to a private developer 201 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:57,610 Speaker 1: called Manhattan Town Incorporated. That developer took Title I money 202 00:12:57,690 --> 00:13:01,810 Speaker 1: but then did not erect a single promised building and 203 00:13:01,870 --> 00:13:06,989 Speaker 1: also did not demolish any existing buildings. Instead, Manhattan Town 204 00:13:07,030 --> 00:13:10,990 Speaker 1: Incorporated was collecting rent from the tenants and just allowing 205 00:13:11,030 --> 00:13:14,949 Speaker 1: the buildings to fall apart around them. Manhattan Town was 206 00:13:15,210 --> 00:13:18,890 Speaker 1: eventually forced off of this project, but Kessler, who was 207 00:13:19,010 --> 00:13:22,900 Speaker 1: one of their architects, had continued to be part of 208 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:28,300 Speaker 1: projects that Moses initiated until the mayor said, no more. Yeah, 209 00:13:28,380 --> 00:13:31,500 Speaker 1: he is usually described as having been blacklisted at that point. 210 00:13:32,300 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: And Moses said that he didn't personally know Kessler, that 211 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,460 Speaker 1: he was just part of projects that came along with 212 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: other architecture offices. But he also said that he didn't 213 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: think the mayor could legally have him banned. It was 214 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,570 Speaker 1: really apparent that Moses felt that Mayor Wagner had insulted him. 215 00:13:49,590 --> 00:13:53,550 Speaker 1: The way his writing comes off, his statement, it almost 216 00:13:53,590 --> 00:13:56,890 Speaker 1: sounds like he thinks the mayor had overstepped his boundaries, 217 00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,969 Speaker 1: which is funny because that's your boss. He made a 218 00:14:00,010 --> 00:14:04,030 Speaker 1: public statement that the recent, quote, ruinous charges and misstatements 219 00:14:04,470 --> 00:14:07,580 Speaker 1: and the mayor's willingness to give those claims credence had 220 00:14:07,700 --> 00:14:10,839 Speaker 1: scared away all the venture capital that such projects might 221 00:14:10,860 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: have gotten and. venture capital that they needed. He then stated, quote, 222 00:14:15,900 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: from now on, over and above projects in the actual 223 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:24,650 Speaker 1: planning stage and perhaps labor cooperatives, no full taxpaying speculative 224 00:14:24,690 --> 00:14:28,170 Speaker 1: sponsors will be found. And to that extent, Title I 225 00:14:28,350 --> 00:14:31,470 Speaker 1: is a dead duck. What the mayor faces now is 226 00:14:31,530 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: deciding on a Other officials involved with the slum clearance 227 00:14:39,060 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: committee said, no, no, no, Title I would still be 228 00:14:41,500 --> 00:14:44,580 Speaker 1: a part of New York projects. And they all kind 229 00:14:44,620 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: of praised Moses in their statements. But looking back at 230 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: the way this all plays out in the press, it 231 00:14:50,100 --> 00:14:53,380 Speaker 1: really makes Moses look like he's having a very public tantrum. 232 00:14:54,460 --> 00:14:57,950 Speaker 1: Even so, things did blow over and Moses did keep 233 00:14:57,990 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: working on redevelopment projects. Several months later, in December of 234 00:15:02,740 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: that year, the Metropolitan Council on Housing started distributing flyers 235 00:15:07,420 --> 00:15:11,100 Speaker 1: in the city that were addressed to Mayor Robert Wagner. 236 00:15:11,860 --> 00:15:14,860 Speaker 1: The idea was that people could sign the flyer on 237 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,340 Speaker 1: the provided line and then enter their address on the 238 00:15:18,380 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: line below that and then fold it up and stamp 239 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,660 Speaker 1: it and mail it to the mayor so that his 240 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,340 Speaker 1: office would be flooded with these letters. These letters demanded, 241 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: in bold writing at the top, For New York to grow, 242 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,900 Speaker 1: Moses must go. So, in part, the letter stated, quote, 243 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,620 Speaker 1: The flyer notes that there have been these numerous write-ups 244 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,330 Speaker 1: in the press about the scandals that seem to be 245 00:15:40,370 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: part of every single slum clearance committee project. And after 246 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: chastising the mayor for making what felt to the rest 247 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: of New York useless gestures after these previous complaints, the 248 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:03,610 Speaker 1: flyer states, quote, the mess still continues. One, the tenants 249 00:16:03,730 --> 00:16:07,650 Speaker 1: are still sold along with the land. Two, indecent and 250 00:16:07,810 --> 00:16:14,260 Speaker 1: inhuman relocation practices still continue. Three, luxury housing is still 251 00:16:14,300 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: being built at the people's expense while those in greater 252 00:16:17,620 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: need are driven from slum to slum. Four, as Charles Abrams, 253 00:16:23,020 --> 00:16:27,110 Speaker 1: former rent administrator, has pointed out, slum clearance has become 254 00:16:27,210 --> 00:16:33,590 Speaker 1: Negro and Puerto Rican clearance. And this still continues. We need, one, 255 00:16:33,930 --> 00:16:40,310 Speaker 1: more low-rent housing. Two, no more subsidized luxury housing. Three, 256 00:16:40,630 --> 00:16:45,130 Speaker 1: new housing built before housing is torn down. The flyer 257 00:16:45,170 --> 00:16:48,910 Speaker 1: then describes this situation by likening it to a cancer 258 00:16:49,050 --> 00:16:51,890 Speaker 1: and then once again reiterates the phrase it opens with, 259 00:16:52,470 --> 00:16:55,750 Speaker 1: Moses must go. As all of this had been heating 260 00:16:55,870 --> 00:16:59,190 Speaker 1: up and the investigation into the slum clearance projects had 261 00:16:59,210 --> 00:17:02,670 Speaker 1: been playing out, there was one very vocal supporter of 262 00:17:02,770 --> 00:17:07,389 Speaker 1: Moses who seemed to be absolutely everywhere. That was columnist 263 00:17:07,490 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: and radio broadcaster George Sikulski. Sokolski had columns with multiple 264 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,540 Speaker 1: New York papers, but those columns were also syndicated. So 265 00:17:16,580 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: if you do a search for Moses on newspaper archives 266 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: from 1959, one after another of the results is a 267 00:17:24,140 --> 00:17:27,179 Speaker 1: glowing endorsement of Moses and what a good man he 268 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 1: was from papers all over the country. And they were 269 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: all versions of Sokolski's write-ups for New York papers that 270 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: were then part of King Features Syndicate. He was really 271 00:17:39,619 --> 00:17:42,859 Speaker 1: a piece of work. Yet another person from this two-parter 272 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 1: who could be their own episode one day. Yeah. Also, 273 00:17:46,590 --> 00:17:50,190 Speaker 1: King Feature Syndicate is something that Hearst started. So just FYI. 274 00:17:51,070 --> 00:17:54,790 Speaker 1: These articles that all appeared that were essentially the same 275 00:17:54,850 --> 00:17:59,610 Speaker 1: article had titles like Robert Moses is a selfless man 276 00:18:00,090 --> 00:18:04,370 Speaker 1: and similarly a bullion things article. And they included pronouncements like, quote, 277 00:18:04,430 --> 00:18:08,909 Speaker 1: this is a constructive, creative personality who is constantly building 278 00:18:08,950 --> 00:18:12,810 Speaker 1: and beautifying and whose work, no matter how large and widespread, 279 00:18:12,910 --> 00:18:16,650 Speaker 1: is never touched by graft or corruption or waste so 280 00:18:16,790 --> 00:18:22,250 Speaker 1: usual in public work. There's so much of this very, like... 281 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: It's very puffy love for Robert Moses. And then each 282 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:33,110 Speaker 1: of them ends... with an explainer for why this material 283 00:18:33,170 --> 00:18:36,790 Speaker 1: was being published. Quote, the point of writing about Robert 284 00:18:36,830 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: Moses and what he does is to show that despite 285 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,820 Speaker 1: the materialism of current American life, there are still selfless 286 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: men who serve the people, achieving great improvements in various 287 00:18:47,500 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: fields without concern for private advance. So what makes these 288 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:57,590 Speaker 1: George Sokolski write-ups extra interesting is that they started appearing 289 00:18:57,770 --> 00:19:00,530 Speaker 1: in mid-June. I think I saw the first one, like, 290 00:19:00,990 --> 00:19:04,790 Speaker 1: June 14th. That was two weeks ahead of that New 291 00:19:04,830 --> 00:19:09,150 Speaker 1: York Times four-parter that avidly criticized Moses. So looking back 292 00:19:09,190 --> 00:19:11,970 Speaker 1: at it now, it sure starts to seem like Sokolsky 293 00:19:11,990 --> 00:19:14,470 Speaker 1: was asked to get out ahead of the scandal that 294 00:19:14,530 --> 00:19:17,930 Speaker 1: Moses must have surely known was coming. At the end 295 00:19:17,970 --> 00:19:22,179 Speaker 1: of 1959, journalist Bob Baum wrote that he could tell 296 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 1: that the years and constant controversy were starting to affect Moses, noting, quote, 297 00:19:27,630 --> 00:19:32,300 Speaker 1: He has maintained his reputation for unrelenting battle, for being 298 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: a doer but not necessarily a pleaser. Only a few 299 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,500 Speaker 1: weeks ago, he dropped a strong hint that some of 300 00:19:38,540 --> 00:19:44,270 Speaker 1: the criticism accompanying his activity has been wearing hard. Baum 301 00:19:44,310 --> 00:19:48,170 Speaker 1: discussed how the main argument of his critics was that 302 00:19:48,210 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: Moses had amassed so much power through holding multiple government 303 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,060 Speaker 1: jobs at once that he was no longer subject to 304 00:19:56,100 --> 00:19:59,619 Speaker 1: checks and balances. The consultants that were paid fees with 305 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,810 Speaker 1: no disclosure as to the size of those payouts, the 306 00:20:02,850 --> 00:20:09,310 Speaker 1: same non-disclosure of his employees' salaries, closed trustee meetings, the 307 00:20:09,369 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 1: ability to seize land other than the land seizures. These 308 00:20:13,420 --> 00:20:16,260 Speaker 1: are the kinds of things, Baum points out, that private 309 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,220 Speaker 1: industry might do, but that the public has a right 310 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,820 Speaker 1: to know this kind of information when it is part 311 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,100 Speaker 1: of a government entity. Yeah, he was often called like 312 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,580 Speaker 1: the construction czar or the city planning czar of New York. 313 00:20:32,780 --> 00:20:35,620 Speaker 1: And that is why he was not sharing a lot 314 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,540 Speaker 1: of how it all worked behind the scenes, but he 315 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,710 Speaker 1: was able to do kind of whatever he wanted. Coming up, 316 00:20:40,740 --> 00:20:43,609 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the last decade of Moses's 317 00:20:43,690 --> 00:20:47,290 Speaker 1: career and ongoing debate about his work. But first, we 318 00:20:47,310 --> 00:20:49,990 Speaker 1: will hear from the sponsors that make this show possible. 319 00:20:59,770 --> 00:21:02,270 Speaker 1: Following that rough end of the 1950s and all of 320 00:21:02,310 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: the criticism lobbed at him, Moses then made several almost 321 00:21:06,060 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: uncharacteristic missteps that got more and more New Yorkers angry. 322 00:21:11,210 --> 00:21:13,830 Speaker 1: By the end of 1960, he had resigned from his 323 00:21:13,869 --> 00:21:17,570 Speaker 1: positions on the New York City Park Commission, Slum Clearance Committee, 324 00:21:17,869 --> 00:21:21,870 Speaker 1: and the City Planning Commission to focus instead on spearheading 325 00:21:21,890 --> 00:21:27,609 Speaker 1: the 1964 New York World's Fair. In 1962, Robert Moses 326 00:21:27,670 --> 00:21:32,370 Speaker 1: locked horns with then-Governor of New York, Nelson Rockefeller. Their 327 00:21:32,490 --> 00:21:36,949 Speaker 1: rivalry manifested through a disagreement over plans for Fire Island, 328 00:21:37,410 --> 00:21:41,490 Speaker 1: a Long Island barrier reef. Moses wanted to run a 329 00:21:41,570 --> 00:21:45,300 Speaker 1: highway the length of the island going back to the 1930s, 330 00:21:45,490 --> 00:21:48,690 Speaker 1: and then after a storm in 1962 destroyed most of 331 00:21:48,730 --> 00:21:51,620 Speaker 1: the homes there, he saw a chance to finally get 332 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: his highway project approved. This was yet another controversial plan. 333 00:21:56,460 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: While Moses had a lot of documentation to back up 334 00:21:59,460 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: his claims that a roadway would actually prevent more erosion, 335 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:09,690 Speaker 1: that documentation was called into question. Additionally, environmental groups had 336 00:22:09,730 --> 00:22:12,379 Speaker 1: their own concerns about what the highway would do to 337 00:22:12,390 --> 00:22:16,700 Speaker 1: the island. Moses ignored everyone who tried to offer a 338 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: differing opinion, but Fire Island residents put together an alternate 339 00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:25,939 Speaker 1: proposal to establish protected status for the island as the 340 00:22:26,020 --> 00:22:30,460 Speaker 1: Fire Island National Seashore, and they got support from federal offices. 341 00:22:31,330 --> 00:22:34,570 Speaker 1: The pressure from the public gave the governor an opportunity 342 00:22:34,630 --> 00:22:37,090 Speaker 1: to tell Moses that they needed to hold off on 343 00:22:37,109 --> 00:22:41,110 Speaker 1: the highway project and also suggested that maybe Moses might 344 00:22:41,170 --> 00:22:44,470 Speaker 1: want to pare down his many governmental roles in the 345 00:22:44,510 --> 00:22:47,669 Speaker 1: interest of focusing more of his energies on the World's Fair. 346 00:22:47,690 --> 00:22:51,650 Speaker 1: This was on top of other problems these two men 347 00:22:51,730 --> 00:22:54,750 Speaker 1: had been bickering over, and it was the last straw. 348 00:22:55,230 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: Moses submitted his resignation to Nelson Rockefeller, He had threatened 349 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: resignation with previous governors, but they always refused to accept 350 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,929 Speaker 1: that resignation and recognized that Moses was not only really powerful, 351 00:23:08,010 --> 00:23:10,410 Speaker 1: but also that a lot of public projects would just 352 00:23:10,530 --> 00:23:15,189 Speaker 1: fall apart if he suddenly left. Rockefeller accepted the resignation, 353 00:23:15,250 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: and that set off a storm of press coverage. Yeah, 354 00:23:18,740 --> 00:23:21,300 Speaker 1: he kind of called his bluff. There was so much 355 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: back and forth in the papers today. But then the 356 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: New York Times, bless them, ran a full aggregation of 357 00:23:26,619 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 1: all the back and forth statements from Moses and Rockefeller. 358 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,340 Speaker 1: So you could kind of see the flow of how 359 00:23:31,380 --> 00:23:34,530 Speaker 1: it all played out. Initially, Moses had released a statement 360 00:23:34,570 --> 00:23:37,650 Speaker 1: that read in part, quote, Last Tuesday morning, that is 361 00:23:37,730 --> 00:23:41,690 Speaker 1: November 27th, Governor Rockefeller at his office in New York 362 00:23:41,890 --> 00:23:45,429 Speaker 1: asked me flatly and with no preliminaries to resign immediately 363 00:23:45,890 --> 00:23:48,699 Speaker 1: as chairman of the State Council of Parks, so that 364 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,340 Speaker 1: he could put his brother Lawrence, now head of the 365 00:23:51,380 --> 00:23:54,580 Speaker 1: Palisades Interstate Commission and vice chairman of the council, in 366 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,550 Speaker 1: my place. The chairman of the council is elected annually 367 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:03,210 Speaker 1: by 10 members. Rockefeller's response read, quote, I have been 368 00:24:03,250 --> 00:24:06,970 Speaker 1: discussing with Mr. Moses for some time, a year or more, 369 00:24:07,170 --> 00:24:11,010 Speaker 1: the questions of orderly transition from his long and brilliant 370 00:24:11,090 --> 00:24:15,110 Speaker 1: career and leadership in the field of state parks. There 371 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,270 Speaker 1: is no one who has done more to develop parks, 372 00:24:17,550 --> 00:24:19,830 Speaker 1: not only in this state, but anywhere in the nation, 373 00:24:20,290 --> 00:24:23,290 Speaker 1: than has Commissioner Moses, and the people of this state 374 00:24:23,330 --> 00:24:26,369 Speaker 1: will forever be indebted to him. We had a meeting 375 00:24:26,609 --> 00:24:29,850 Speaker 1: earlier this week to discuss various matters which had been 376 00:24:29,950 --> 00:24:33,209 Speaker 1: pending related to the World's Fair, the New York City 377 00:24:33,430 --> 00:24:37,490 Speaker 1: Federal State Highway Program, the Power Authority, and the state 378 00:24:37,550 --> 00:24:42,439 Speaker 1: parks system, all of which were under his direction. At 379 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,420 Speaker 1: this meeting, I suggested that the end of this year 380 00:24:45,460 --> 00:24:48,219 Speaker 1: would be a good time to make the transition in 381 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,990 Speaker 1: connection with the chairmanship of the State Council of Parks 382 00:24:52,430 --> 00:24:55,750 Speaker 1: because of the growing load on him in connection with 383 00:24:55,810 --> 00:25:00,530 Speaker 1: the completion of the World's Fair for 1964, in addition 384 00:25:00,590 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: to his responsibilities as chairman of the Triborough Bridge and 385 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: Tunnel Authority, which is constructing the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge, the power 386 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: authority of the state, the Long Island State Park Commission, 387 00:25:14,340 --> 00:25:18,939 Speaker 1: and the presidency of the Bethpage Park Authority, and the 388 00:25:19,030 --> 00:25:25,310 Speaker 1: Jones Beach State Parkway Authority. So this whole situation is 389 00:25:25,410 --> 00:25:30,350 Speaker 1: often described as Rockefeller just outmaneuvering Moses politically. Yeah, it 390 00:25:30,369 --> 00:25:34,710 Speaker 1: was kind of like he wanted him to get mad 391 00:25:34,770 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: and have a tantrum, so he... took advantage of how 392 00:25:38,900 --> 00:25:41,820 Speaker 1: people were not happy about this parkway plan on Fire 393 00:25:41,940 --> 00:25:43,810 Speaker 1: Island and was like, oh, I don't think that's going 394 00:25:43,830 --> 00:25:45,970 Speaker 1: to be popular. We should not do it. And just 395 00:25:46,010 --> 00:25:50,469 Speaker 1: let him kind of have his tantrum resign, which he 396 00:25:50,490 --> 00:25:56,990 Speaker 1: had threatened to do with many other people and went, okay. Okay, cool. 397 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:01,419 Speaker 1: Thanks for the paper. Moses did then focus on the 398 00:26:01,460 --> 00:26:04,580 Speaker 1: World's Fair, but that came with its own set of problems. 399 00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:09,090 Speaker 1: He had built a massive fairgrounds at Flushing Meadows Corona 400 00:26:09,150 --> 00:26:12,470 Speaker 1: Park for the 1939 World's Fair. And then for the 401 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,699 Speaker 1: 1960s event, he added a whole bunch of facilities to it. Incidentally. 402 00:26:18,170 --> 00:26:19,850 Speaker 1: This is a World's Fair that is near and dear 403 00:26:19,869 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: to my heart. It's the one where Walt Disney tested 404 00:26:22,130 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: out a number of attractions that would make their way 405 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,980 Speaker 1: into Disneyland. So the Carousel of Progress, It's a Small World, 406 00:26:28,420 --> 00:26:32,260 Speaker 1: Ford's Magic Skyway, and Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln. It 407 00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: was also where Rolly Crump's Tower of the Four Winds 408 00:26:34,940 --> 00:26:38,350 Speaker 1: sculpture was exhibited as part of the Disney offerings. Just 409 00:26:38,380 --> 00:26:41,050 Speaker 1: a beautiful piece of art. And then that is also 410 00:26:41,109 --> 00:26:44,250 Speaker 1: where the Belgian waffle made its U.S. debut. Thanks, 1964 411 00:26:44,250 --> 00:26:49,179 Speaker 1: World's Fair! Roughly 50 million people attended the fair, and 412 00:26:49,220 --> 00:26:52,580 Speaker 1: that sounds like a huge success, but Moses had estimated 413 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,140 Speaker 1: that it would draw 70 million. Even though it's considered 414 00:26:56,220 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: an important historical event for the many visions of the 415 00:26:59,900 --> 00:27:03,300 Speaker 1: future it exhibited, it was actually the first World's Fair 416 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: to have that futurism focus, it also had a lot 417 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,300 Speaker 1: of problems. The New York Times reported that when the 418 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,730 Speaker 1: fair opened, only 85% of it was actually ready. reporting 419 00:27:14,750 --> 00:27:19,470 Speaker 1: that 15 of the 139 pavilions were not finished and 420 00:27:19,510 --> 00:27:22,150 Speaker 1: that many of the finished pavilions did not have all 421 00:27:22,170 --> 00:27:26,740 Speaker 1: of their exhibit materials. Some exhibitors were there and ready 422 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: but had nowhere to put their exhibits. Fair spokespeople told 423 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,540 Speaker 1: the press that because it would take more than a 424 00:27:32,619 --> 00:27:36,260 Speaker 1: week to see everything, the unfinished pavilions would be completed 425 00:27:36,340 --> 00:27:40,510 Speaker 1: before attendees exhausted all their other options. Some of the 426 00:27:40,530 --> 00:27:45,020 Speaker 1: attractions were also unfinished. While a lot of these unready 427 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,979 Speaker 1: elements were completed in the first few weeks of the fair, 428 00:27:49,170 --> 00:27:54,730 Speaker 1: some were abandoned entirely. After the fair closed, Moses was 429 00:27:54,869 --> 00:27:59,270 Speaker 1: no longer the city construction coordinator. Yeah, it seems like 430 00:27:59,390 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: there was just so much frustration with him by the 431 00:28:01,619 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: end of that whole thing. In September of 1966, Robert's wife, Mary, 432 00:28:07,180 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: died after a long illness that had made her bedridden 433 00:28:10,100 --> 00:28:13,830 Speaker 1: for years. But less than a month later, he got remarried. 434 00:28:14,350 --> 00:28:17,370 Speaker 1: His second wife was Mary Grady, who was his secretary 435 00:28:17,390 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 1: at the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority. Their presumption here 436 00:28:21,150 --> 00:28:23,300 Speaker 1: is that they might have had something romantic going on 437 00:28:23,340 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 1: before the first Mary passed, but we don't know. I 438 00:28:26,980 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: don't know. He was removed from the Triborough Bridge and 439 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,070 Speaker 1: Tunnel Authority by Rockefeller when it merged into another transit 440 00:28:34,090 --> 00:28:39,430 Speaker 1: authority in 1968. That again seems like maybe some Rockefeller maneuvering, 441 00:28:39,490 --> 00:28:42,490 Speaker 1: but that had been the last job that Moses had 442 00:28:42,630 --> 00:28:46,270 Speaker 1: with the New York government. In his retirement, he immediately 443 00:28:46,310 --> 00:28:50,380 Speaker 1: got busy writing a book, and that came out in 1970. 444 00:28:50,380 --> 00:28:53,740 Speaker 1: The book is titled Public Works, A Dangerous Trade, and 445 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,660 Speaker 1: it walks through the entirety of his career and the 446 00:28:56,700 --> 00:29:00,690 Speaker 1: various challenges he faced, how he overcame them. He notes 447 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,460 Speaker 1: that often people who argue against new construction of public 448 00:29:04,540 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: works end up liking them in the long run, noting, quote, 449 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,770 Speaker 1: history repeats itself. Before long, as has happened over and 450 00:29:11,870 --> 00:29:15,610 Speaker 1: over again, the opponents will calm down and claim they 451 00:29:15,630 --> 00:29:20,700 Speaker 1: were always in favor of the improvement. In 1974, journalist 452 00:29:20,780 --> 00:29:24,300 Speaker 1: Robert Caro wrote a book about Moses titled The Power Broker, 453 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,820 Speaker 1: which detailed the way that Moses had amassed his power. 454 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,770 Speaker 1: This is an incredibly influential book in regards to how 455 00:29:31,910 --> 00:29:35,230 Speaker 1: Robert Moses has been perceived ever since its publication. It 456 00:29:35,990 --> 00:29:39,150 Speaker 1: paints a negative picture of the city planner overall, and 457 00:29:39,210 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: it was huge. successful. Moses issued a response to the 458 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,980 Speaker 1: book in August of that year, basically like he put 459 00:29:47,020 --> 00:29:50,220 Speaker 1: out a statement through his PR team denouncing it as, quote, 460 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:55,910 Speaker 1: full of mistakes, unsupported charges, nasty, baseless personalities, and random 461 00:29:55,970 --> 00:30:00,550 Speaker 1: haymakers thrown at just about everybody in public life. He 462 00:30:00,610 --> 00:30:03,490 Speaker 1: also wrote in his statement, quote, the biography tries to 463 00:30:03,550 --> 00:30:06,010 Speaker 1: prove that I was a good boy who fell from grace, 464 00:30:06,410 --> 00:30:10,630 Speaker 1: became a politician, and mistreated the poor. He also states 465 00:30:10,690 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: that Caro has fabricated the idea that, quote, helpless, displaced 466 00:30:14,540 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 1: persons met ruthless public works dictators who sadistically scattered them 467 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,940 Speaker 1: to the worst rookeries, noting that Caro did not provide 468 00:30:23,060 --> 00:30:27,380 Speaker 1: any evidence for these statements. Moses refutes this by saying 469 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: that 98% of the people moved from condemned neighborhoods were 470 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,180 Speaker 1: given better places to live. Incidentally, I also did not 471 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:40,190 Speaker 1: see any evidence from him. Caro's book won the Pulitzer Prize, 472 00:30:40,270 --> 00:30:43,210 Speaker 1: so whether it was accurate or not, its characterization of 473 00:30:43,250 --> 00:30:47,910 Speaker 1: Moses really stuck. Robert Moses died of heart disease on 474 00:30:47,950 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: July 29, 1981, in West Islip, New York. Today, almost 475 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,100 Speaker 1: every movement or group or person that takes an interest 476 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: in Moses's legacy is divided on it. I, as a 477 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: single person, am divided on it. While pro-housing groups admire 478 00:31:06,020 --> 00:31:09,620 Speaker 1: his bias for action and his ability to push projects 479 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: past red tape to get things done, there is really 480 00:31:12,980 --> 00:31:15,580 Speaker 1: no way to ignore the fact that he often destroyed 481 00:31:15,620 --> 00:31:20,980 Speaker 1: historic neighborhoods to do so, and his pro-vehicle, new-road-centric approach 482 00:31:21,070 --> 00:31:24,310 Speaker 1: created a lot of places, that are not as walkable 483 00:31:24,450 --> 00:31:27,410 Speaker 1: or safe as they could be. It can also just 484 00:31:27,430 --> 00:31:29,930 Speaker 1: be really hard to wrap your head around the complex 485 00:31:29,990 --> 00:31:34,190 Speaker 1: nature of a decades-long career that included things like massive 486 00:31:34,270 --> 00:31:38,540 Speaker 1: parks initiatives and the creation of public leisure spaces alongside 487 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: an undeniable accumulation of power that was often used to 488 00:31:42,380 --> 00:31:47,430 Speaker 1: strong-arm governmental officials to bend to his will. And even 489 00:31:47,490 --> 00:31:50,130 Speaker 1: in the immediate wake of his death, New Yorkers seemed 490 00:31:50,170 --> 00:31:52,090 Speaker 1: to be trying to figure out whether he was a 491 00:31:52,190 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: figure to admire or demonize. On August 5th, 1981, a 492 00:31:57,300 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: write-up about him by Red Smith appeared in the New 493 00:31:59,900 --> 00:32:03,850 Speaker 1: York Times and detailed several of his controversial projects and 494 00:32:03,930 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: how he managed them. That article concluded with the story 495 00:32:08,580 --> 00:32:12,020 Speaker 1: of the Cross Queens Expressway, and the takeaway is that 496 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,090 Speaker 1: Moses was right about the need for a larger road, 497 00:32:15,750 --> 00:32:19,510 Speaker 1: but also seems smug in having been right without really 498 00:32:19,610 --> 00:32:24,590 Speaker 1: considering the human cost of destroying housing. Even in the 499 00:32:24,630 --> 00:32:27,970 Speaker 1: last 20 years or so, and prior to that, but 500 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: it's really heated up, I think, there has been a 501 00:32:30,500 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: lot of discussion of the Robert Caro biography and whether 502 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,660 Speaker 1: it really accurately represents Moses or if there is more 503 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,860 Speaker 1: nuance to his career to be considered. So Caro did 504 00:32:41,980 --> 00:32:46,010 Speaker 1: describe Moses starting out as an idealist who became power-hungry, 505 00:32:46,550 --> 00:32:49,790 Speaker 1: writing that his, quote, susceptibility to the addiction of power 506 00:32:49,850 --> 00:32:54,570 Speaker 1: was unusually strong. It is, though, also easy to see 507 00:32:54,650 --> 00:32:56,990 Speaker 1: when you look at his career and many of the 508 00:32:57,020 --> 00:33:00,979 Speaker 1: things he wrote that Moses was often accumulating power so 509 00:33:01,020 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: that he could cut through the slog of bureaucracy that 510 00:33:03,620 --> 00:33:08,090 Speaker 1: prevented progress and municipal improvement. The desire to do so 511 00:33:08,230 --> 00:33:13,290 Speaker 1: is evident in that 1945 article in The Atlantic. He was, though, 512 00:33:13,330 --> 00:33:17,070 Speaker 1: without a doubt, influenced by racist bias in neglecting or 513 00:33:17,150 --> 00:33:20,530 Speaker 1: even destroying areas that were typically occupied by Black and 514 00:33:20,610 --> 00:33:23,710 Speaker 1: other minority residents of the city in an effort to 515 00:33:23,770 --> 00:33:27,110 Speaker 1: build a very idealized New York that clearly catered to 516 00:33:27,150 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: the city's white population and its white growing middle class. 517 00:33:32,010 --> 00:33:35,890 Speaker 1: One way that people really characterize Moses pretty frequently is 518 00:33:36,010 --> 00:33:39,410 Speaker 1: that he ruined New York by adding so many roadways 519 00:33:39,550 --> 00:33:42,890 Speaker 1: and catering to the growing number of cars in the city. 520 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: Caro's book led a lot of people to attribute the 521 00:33:46,860 --> 00:33:49,620 Speaker 1: decline of New York in the 70s and 80s to 522 00:33:49,700 --> 00:33:53,980 Speaker 1: his projects. And he did, for sure, head up a 523 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,700 Speaker 1: lot of roadway projects, although some of the ones he 524 00:33:56,820 --> 00:34:00,590 Speaker 1: wanted to build were not approved. But more modern takes 525 00:34:00,700 --> 00:34:03,810 Speaker 1: on the way Moses shaped New York through expressways note 526 00:34:03,870 --> 00:34:07,010 Speaker 1: that this is not a problem that's exclusive to New 527 00:34:07,050 --> 00:34:11,370 Speaker 1: York at all, and that most large cities in the U.S. 528 00:34:11,430 --> 00:34:16,590 Speaker 1: went through a similar rapid growth of their highway systems. Yeah, 529 00:34:16,670 --> 00:34:18,950 Speaker 1: the takeaway with a lot of those is that New 530 00:34:19,010 --> 00:34:22,450 Speaker 1: York is the most populous, and so everything is sort 531 00:34:22,530 --> 00:34:26,750 Speaker 1: of that much more of a big problem. There are 532 00:34:26,790 --> 00:34:29,379 Speaker 1: so many more people to account for. So many more 533 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,700 Speaker 1: people on the roads, so many more roads that need 534 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: to be built, etc. Yeah, shifting, planning to really accommodate 535 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,970 Speaker 1: cars and drivers more than other transit, like that is 536 00:34:40,090 --> 00:34:45,290 Speaker 1: not a uniquely New York problem in any way. At all. Listen, 537 00:34:45,510 --> 00:34:48,810 Speaker 1: I live in Atlanta. I know what's up. Moses was 538 00:34:48,989 --> 00:34:52,390 Speaker 1: obviously not at all unaware of the many criticisms of 539 00:34:52,430 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: his work and the way he ran government offices. He 540 00:34:56,180 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: wrote in that 1970 book a defense of his mode 541 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 1: of operation after citing Parkinson's Law. That was a book 542 00:35:03,180 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: of satire that was written by C. Northcote Parkinson in 543 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 1: 1957 that stated, work expands so as to fill the 544 00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: time available for its completion. And Moses goes on in 545 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,589 Speaker 1: his own words to say, quote, avoiding Dr. Parkinson's logic 546 00:35:17,700 --> 00:35:22,230 Speaker 1: is not easy when there is actually inescapable expansion of government. 547 00:35:23,190 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: Theorists inveigh against spreading, but if one man holds several 548 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,660 Speaker 1: related jobs and uses employees interchangeably, or if departments are 549 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:36,500 Speaker 1: telescoped and consolidated to ensure economy and coordination, there is 550 00:35:36,620 --> 00:35:40,700 Speaker 1: always a cry of czarism. If, however, there is a 551 00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,950 Speaker 1: real crisis or an unavoidable confrontation, as distinguished from a 552 00:35:44,989 --> 00:35:49,090 Speaker 1: tempest in a teapot, the same critics yell for quick action. 553 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,620 Speaker 1: During his 50-year career, Moses led projects that totaled a 554 00:35:53,660 --> 00:35:59,500 Speaker 1: whopping $ 30 billion worth of urban planning and construction. Examining 555 00:35:59,540 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 1: the many books, articles, scholarly papers, and opinions about the 556 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,259 Speaker 1: impact of that work, it's easy to start thinking that 557 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,420 Speaker 1: his greatest legacy might be the debate about his legacy. 558 00:36:10,100 --> 00:36:12,420 Speaker 1: His name is invoked almost any time there's a new 559 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,030 Speaker 1: project that gets introduced in the city as part of 560 00:36:15,070 --> 00:36:18,989 Speaker 1: the discussion weighing its merits and its impact just like 561 00:36:19,010 --> 00:36:22,930 Speaker 1: the social media posts that inspired this two-parter. That Bob 562 00:36:23,030 --> 00:36:26,870 Speaker 1: Balm article from 1959 that we quoted earlier also included 563 00:36:26,969 --> 00:36:31,280 Speaker 1: this sort of prescient passage. which really sums it all up. Quote, 564 00:36:31,890 --> 00:36:35,509 Speaker 1: whether Robert Moses is right or wrong in what and 565 00:36:35,550 --> 00:36:39,130 Speaker 1: the way he does things, whether he deserves an accolade 566 00:36:39,170 --> 00:36:42,980 Speaker 1: of greatness or is just a puffed-up egoist, or whether, 567 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,299 Speaker 1: as some of his opponents contend, others could have done 568 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,940 Speaker 1: as well, are things that historians and students of tomorrow 569 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:54,489 Speaker 1: may examine in hard perspective. Well, it is tomorrow and 570 00:36:54,530 --> 00:36:58,730 Speaker 1: we are still turning this one over with no real 571 00:36:58,870 --> 00:37:03,469 Speaker 1: obvious summation. So, Robert Moses. And we left so many 572 00:37:03,530 --> 00:37:07,350 Speaker 1: things out. A lot, yeah. Because there's just so much 573 00:37:07,370 --> 00:37:10,530 Speaker 1: to talk about. I hope somebody does a whole Robert 574 00:37:10,570 --> 00:37:15,890 Speaker 1: Moses podcast one day. Well, so the podcast 99% Invisible 575 00:37:16,730 --> 00:37:19,989 Speaker 1: did kind of a deep dive into the power broker 576 00:37:20,010 --> 00:37:22,290 Speaker 1: and I have not listened to those episodes because I 577 00:37:22,330 --> 00:37:25,450 Speaker 1: kind of pick and choose the 99 PI episodes that 578 00:37:25,489 --> 00:37:27,950 Speaker 1: sound interesting to me. And I was like, this sounds 579 00:37:27,969 --> 00:37:32,089 Speaker 1: like a lot. But like they took an in-depth look 580 00:37:32,290 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 1: at it, at least that part of it. Yeah. Yeah. 581 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: I don't think there's ever been like a biopic about him. 582 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,379 Speaker 1: I imagine his family might stand in the way of that. 583 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 1: I think his daughters are long past, but I think 584 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,890 Speaker 1: his grandchildren are still alive. You know. There's a lot 585 00:37:49,910 --> 00:37:53,910 Speaker 1: of conflict. Okay. But I have very fun, joyous, and 586 00:37:53,950 --> 00:37:57,940 Speaker 1: adorable listener mail. I'm excited. This is from our listener, Aubrey, 587 00:37:57,980 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 1: who writes, Hi, Holly and Tracy. I recently listened to 588 00:38:00,380 --> 00:38:03,580 Speaker 1: your episode on Beulah Henry. I'm sure plenty of listeners 589 00:38:03,620 --> 00:38:06,240 Speaker 1: will write in with their own mental images of her inventions, 590 00:38:06,300 --> 00:38:09,259 Speaker 1: but something else about the episode prompted me to write in. 591 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,390 Speaker 1: I am currently in the midst of a sewing frenzy, 592 00:38:12,530 --> 00:38:15,109 Speaker 1: trying to draft my own patterns for a specific type 593 00:38:15,150 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 1: of clothing item. As some may know, this process involves 594 00:38:18,540 --> 00:38:20,390 Speaker 1: a lot of trial and error and going through a 595 00:38:20,430 --> 00:38:23,410 Speaker 1: lot of thread and scrap fabric while testing whether a 596 00:38:23,469 --> 00:38:26,790 Speaker 1: technique will get the result I want. So when home 597 00:38:26,830 --> 00:38:29,590 Speaker 1: sewing machines came up, I perked up and I related 598 00:38:29,650 --> 00:38:33,650 Speaker 1: strongly to Holly's comment about bobbins notoriously running out mid stitch. 599 00:38:34,110 --> 00:38:36,050 Speaker 1: This happened to me more times than I can count. 600 00:38:36,730 --> 00:38:39,110 Speaker 1: I just had to write in about the most amazing 601 00:38:39,170 --> 00:38:42,190 Speaker 1: thing that's happened to me during this project. While sewing 602 00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:44,589 Speaker 1: one of the finished pieces, I pulled the fabric away 603 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,030 Speaker 1: to cut the thread and noticed only one string trailing 604 00:38:48,070 --> 00:38:50,969 Speaker 1: from the fabric. My first thought was, oh no, the 605 00:38:51,010 --> 00:38:54,109 Speaker 1: bobbin ran out mid-stitch. I trimmed the thread and went 606 00:38:54,150 --> 00:38:56,569 Speaker 1: to see where it had run out, expecting to need 607 00:38:56,610 --> 00:38:58,989 Speaker 1: to pull out the thread and start all over again. 608 00:38:59,050 --> 00:39:01,219 Speaker 1: And to my delight, it had stopped right at the 609 00:39:01,260 --> 00:39:04,219 Speaker 1: very end of the stitch after backstitching. That had never 610 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: happened to me before. And if you can believe it, 611 00:39:06,980 --> 00:39:10,100 Speaker 1: it happened again. This time I didn't notice until I'd 612 00:39:10,140 --> 00:39:12,260 Speaker 1: finished the piece and was prepping to start a brand 613 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,900 Speaker 1: new stitch on a new pattern and saw only the 614 00:39:14,940 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: top thread was visible. I couldn't believe my luck. Two 615 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,610 Speaker 1: bobbins in a row that lasted exactly through a full stitch. 616 00:39:21,810 --> 00:39:24,430 Speaker 1: I feel like I should play the lottery. I felt 617 00:39:24,489 --> 00:39:26,069 Speaker 1: I just had to share this with people who could 618 00:39:26,090 --> 00:39:28,569 Speaker 1: understand and appreciate just how exciting it is for that 619 00:39:28,610 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: to happen. As for Pet Tax, I have attached photos 620 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:36,240 Speaker 1: of my sweet dachshund named Obi-Wan. He is 14 now 621 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 1: and sometimes referred to as Old Ben, among other various 622 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 1: other nicknames bestowed upon him. His tongue now permanently hangs 623 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,660 Speaker 1: out of his mouth since he had his remaining teeth 624 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,940 Speaker 1: removed last summer. So most of our recent photos feature 625 00:39:48,980 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 1: his long red tongue hanging out the side of his muzzle. 626 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:53,930 Speaker 1: Thank you both for all the work and research that 627 00:39:53,950 --> 00:39:55,969 Speaker 1: goes into each episode and for making me feel like 628 00:39:56,010 --> 00:39:59,090 Speaker 1: I'm just listening in on two friends talking about interesting 629 00:39:59,130 --> 00:40:02,250 Speaker 1: history topics. Listen, I've had that bobbin moment and it 630 00:40:02,290 --> 00:40:04,850 Speaker 1: does really feel like you've been blessed in some way 631 00:40:05,170 --> 00:40:08,490 Speaker 1: by the sewing gods. But we got to talk about Obi-Wan. 632 00:40:09,710 --> 00:40:12,510 Speaker 1: This dog is so cute. One of these pictures, Obi-Wan, 633 00:40:12,910 --> 00:40:16,770 Speaker 1: who does look like a distinguished and mature gentleman... is 634 00:40:16,830 --> 00:40:22,450 Speaker 1: dressed in a hot dog costume. And he's just lying 635 00:40:22,510 --> 00:40:26,100 Speaker 1: on the carpet and he looks almost borderly forlorn. Like, mother, 636 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:30,300 Speaker 1: why have you demeaned me thus? But he's very cute 637 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 1: and he has gray in his muzzle and I love it. 638 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,540 Speaker 1: I love an old pup. I love him so much. 639 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:37,779 Speaker 1: There's one where he's looking out a window and he 640 00:40:37,820 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 1: looks so cute. And another where he's just sitting looking precious. 641 00:40:43,130 --> 00:40:45,339 Speaker 1: And I love it. So thank you so much for 642 00:40:45,390 --> 00:40:48,380 Speaker 1: sharing Obi-Wan with us because he is a really precious baby. 643 00:40:48,820 --> 00:40:51,100 Speaker 1: I also see those Princess Leia pillows on what I 644 00:40:51,140 --> 00:40:54,380 Speaker 1: think is your couch. Fabulous. And I'm so glad that 645 00:40:54,420 --> 00:40:56,620 Speaker 1: the sewing gods blessed you. And I hope that that 646 00:40:56,660 --> 00:40:59,529 Speaker 1: project was everything you had hoped, especially if you are 647 00:40:59,570 --> 00:41:03,029 Speaker 1: working out your own pattern. That is so much work. 648 00:41:03,170 --> 00:41:05,350 Speaker 1: And also thank you for working out your own pattern 649 00:41:05,910 --> 00:41:07,759 Speaker 1: in a world where people are throwing AI patterns everywhere. 650 00:41:08,550 --> 00:41:11,770 Speaker 1: everywhere on the internet. It does not make me happy 651 00:41:11,830 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: in any way, shape, form, or fashion. Keep making original 652 00:41:15,540 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: patterns like humans by humans. Makes me happy. But also, 653 00:41:20,219 --> 00:41:22,460 Speaker 1: keep sending us pictures of your adorable dogs. They don't 654 00:41:22,540 --> 00:41:24,780 Speaker 1: have to be Star Wars themed. I like all the dogs. 655 00:41:25,500 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 1: You can do that at historypodcast at iheartradio.com. You can 656 00:41:29,900 --> 00:41:32,860 Speaker 1: also find the show notes for this week's two-parter or 657 00:41:33,020 --> 00:41:36,710 Speaker 1: any show that we've done on Those are at MissedInHistory.com. 658 00:41:36,730 --> 00:41:39,589 Speaker 1: And if you just click into the show, you'll see 659 00:41:39,670 --> 00:41:41,739 Speaker 1: all of the resources that we use to put it together. 660 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,720 Speaker 1: And I hope you enjoy reading those. You can also 661 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,080 Speaker 1: subscribe to the podcast. It is easy peasy, rice and cheesy. 662 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: You can do that on the iHeartRadio app or anywhere 663 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:59,090 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. Stuff You Missed in 664 00:41:59,110 --> 00:42:02,839 Speaker 1: History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts 665 00:42:02,900 --> 00:42:07,020 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 666 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:08,480 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.