1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Listener Mail. This is Robert Lamb and this is Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 1: And Rob your back for your first listener mail. In 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: a bit, I did a couple without you there. It's 6 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 1: good to have you back on the mic. Yeah. Well, 7 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:23,760 Speaker 1: you know, I'm glad you were there fighting the mail bag, 8 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: keeping it from becoming two overstuffed lest it erupt all 9 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: over us. UM. You know, one of the things I 10 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: did while I was out is I finished rereading Dune 11 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: by Frank Herbert, and then I reread Dune Messiah, the 12 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: second one in this series, and I did want to 13 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 1: update for anyone out there who cares about this as 14 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: much as I do. UM. One of the things that 15 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: I ended up doing an artifact episode regarding is the 16 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: idea of donkeys of Dune, because it's it's mentioned in 17 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: UM in the appendices for for the first Dune novel 18 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: that that's still that there there had there are donkeys 19 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: on the planet Iracus. They are sometimes outfitted in still suits, 20 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: and they're they're used either too, you know, for mild 21 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: carrying of things around and they're sometimes used for milk 22 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: um as as a dairy um animal. And so in 23 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: that Artifact episode, I speculated on why this could be. 24 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: You know, part of my thinking was that, well, it 25 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: doesn't seem like like Frank Herbert ever did anything in 26 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: his Dune novels without a lot of thought going into it. 27 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: So it couldn't just be a random choice that there 28 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: are donkeys on Iraqus, but there don't seem to be 29 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: camels on Iraqus. Um. You know, both are are animals 30 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: that are that are adapt at at desert environments. But 31 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: but why the donkey and not the camel. So I 32 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: talked about that for a little bit. And then when 33 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: I reread Dune Messiah Lo and Behold, there's one little 34 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: passage in there which is kind of as a as 35 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: an off handed remark that mentioned that the fremen of 36 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: Iracus would not know about the camel, like the camel 37 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: is specifically mentioned as being an animal of the Golden 38 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,399 Speaker 1: Age of Earth. Uh So, still I don't have any 39 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: you know. He there's no little note there where Herbert 40 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: describes why in great detail he decided to go with 41 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: the donkey rather than the camel. I expect that it 42 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,119 Speaker 1: might line up with some of the ideas I presented, 43 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: but he does seem to double down in Messiah on 44 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: there being no camels whatsoever on the planet. Well, glad 45 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: to get that information, But wait a minute, no, are 46 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: your ideas that? What? That? Would it be that the 47 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: camel is extinct by the time of of the Dune 48 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: novels or that or that what like the Benny jesse 49 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: At have conspired not to let knowledge of the camel spread. Basically, 50 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 1: my my critique was that based on some some really 51 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: excellent sources, there have been whole books written about like 52 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: the role of uh, you know that, the history of 53 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: the use of of of the donkey, the history of 54 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: the use the camel, and it's all you know. You know, 55 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: you can also get into various comparisons about how they 56 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: good they are energy wise, but basically it seems like 57 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: the camel is more useful for longer distances and greater cargo. 58 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: And it seems like on a rack, as you know, 59 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: first of all, you're dealing with with an age in 60 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: which you have things like ornithopters and you can fly around. 61 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: You you have more, you have other means of transportation 62 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,679 Speaker 1: that are available to you. Also, you can't just while 63 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: the camel would be perfect for moving across long distances 64 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: over the desert, you can't very well do that if 65 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: you have sandworms around, because unless you have somehow taught 66 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: the camel to walk with no rhythm, it's just gonna 67 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: wind up in the belly of the sand worm. Well. 68 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: One of the other arguments that is often made in 69 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: comparing camels and donkeys is the camel is a more 70 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: extensive animal, so if you have to go with one, uh, like, 71 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: the cost of the donkey is less than the cost 72 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: of keeping a camel, or so it seems. I accept. 73 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,119 Speaker 1: And then I guess you've got to somehow get enough 74 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: camels too, Iracus to begin with, I mean camels or donkeys, 75 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 1: So maybe that's part of it too. Um, you have 76 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: to factor in how many are you bringing. I don't know, 77 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: there's a there's additional computation you can make on it. 78 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 1: But like I said, I was excited just to see 79 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: it mentioned again. I didn't remember this from from my 80 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: previous reading up doing Messiah. So uh, here's hoping that 81 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: the Children of Doone continues this trend and offers more 82 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: juicy tidbits about donkeys on the planet Iracus. Yes, here's hoping. Well, Rob, 83 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: if you don't mind, I guess I'm going to jump 84 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: right into our first message from a listener with this 85 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: email from Renata. Let's do it, okay, Renata says, Hi, Rob, 86 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: Joe and Seth short time listener, frequent emailer. I started 87 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: listening in the summer of one and have been working 88 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: my way back through your catalog. I have a story 89 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,040 Speaker 1: to tell about water tasting, but first I want a 90 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: shaff phenomenon I recently came across that reminded me of 91 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: the Moses Effect. I guess water tasting would tie into 92 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,799 Speaker 1: our episodes on Thursday, and the Moses effect was something 93 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: we discussed in a recent Vault episode. Now, if you 94 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: haven't listened to the episode, the Moses effect is uh 95 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: is an example of a type of type of phenomenon 96 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: known as knowledge neglect, where you can ask somebody a 97 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: question like how many of each type of animal did 98 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: Moses take onto the arc? And most people will say too, 99 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: even though they know that it was Noah and not 100 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: Moses who took animals onto the ark. They're just like, 101 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: they just ignore that semantic error in the question and 102 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: answer it as if you had said Noah. And they're 103 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 1: all kinds of interesting little implications of knowledge and neglect. 104 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: But Ronata goes on to say, there's another type of 105 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: linguistic allusion called the comparative illusion. Most people report that 106 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 1: they understand a sentence like this one. Here you go 107 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: more people have been to Berlin than I have. Understand. 108 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 1: That just kind of breaks my brain to to to 109 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: hear that. I mean, it's the kind of thing that 110 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: if you're asked to focus on it, yeah, it sounds 111 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: wrong because it's actually a nonsensical sentence. But if you 112 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: if it just came quickly in a conversation, it would 113 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: go right over me. I would just be like, yeah, 114 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: I understand what that means. I mean, I guess they're 115 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: trying to say, like, more people within my circle have 116 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: been to Berlin than I. It still breaks my brain. Sorry, 117 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: even that wouldn't make any sense, would it? Really? Okay? 118 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: So Ranada goes on to explain, She says, but this 119 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: sentence makes less sense the more you think about it. 120 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 1: At first, blush, I interpret the sentence to mean I 121 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: have not been to Berlin. Most other people have. Um, yeah, no, 122 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: that doesn't make sense. She says, I'm curious if it 123 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: means something different to you. To understand the issue with 124 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: the sentence, an example of a well formed comparison sentence 125 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: may help. Quote more people have been to Berlin than 126 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: those who have been to Fiji. The first half of 127 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: the sentence A is the number of people who have 128 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: been to Berlin. The second half of the sentence B 129 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: is the number of people who have been to Fiji. 130 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: The second sentence is saying A is greater than B. However, 131 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: in the first sentence I gave while A is the same, 132 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: the second half of the sentence isn't referring to a 133 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: set of people. And if I understand the grammatical explanation, 134 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: that's where the problem arises. The sentence is almost a 135 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: Yogi barra is m When you stop to think about it, 136 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: you're saying that the set of everyone who has been 137 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: to Berlin is greater than yourself. It's a statement either 138 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: so obviously true that it's uninformative, or it has no 139 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: meaning at all. Maybe we can come back to more 140 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: about this after the emails done. But I also wanted 141 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: to read so Ranada has comments on water tasting. She 142 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: writes this is in response to your series about thirst. 143 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: Coffee making is another profession that pays close attention to 144 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: the composition and taste of water. My partner is a 145 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: barista and one of the things he likes to do 146 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: is organized coffee tastings where he makes the same coffee 147 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: with the same method of preparation and every other variable 148 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: controlled except the water source. He'll use local tap water, 149 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: distilled water, and water with different mineralities, and the results 150 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: are staggering. My partner has trained his brain to identify 151 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: subtle differences in flavors, but even to the novice taster 152 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: like me, the coffee tastes entirely different based on the water, 153 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: mostly impacting acidity and bitterness. We live in Wisconsin currently 154 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: and the water is extremely hard. Any coffee nerd living 155 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: in Wisconsin knows we have to make our own water 156 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: for coffee. My partner and I distill our own water 157 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: and add a mixture of minerals to produce the proper 158 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: concentration per gallon. Fortunately, you can now buy preportioned mineral packets. Wow, 159 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: that that is dedication to coffee. When they said we 160 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: have to make our own water for coffee again, apologies, 161 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: I've just been reading a lot of dune recently. I 162 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 1: was just imagining like the frem and coffee, and you're 163 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: having to use like a still about to prepare. It 164 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: doesn't matter that it was once tears and an armpits wet. 165 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: It is clean now. I mean it has an all 166 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: water been tier in armpit sweat at some point, Yes, 167 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: every glass of water you drink is full of water 168 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: that was once dinosaur urine, dinosaur feces, somebody's diarrhea. It's 169 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 1: it's all the same water. By the way, there is 170 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 1: a recipe for friend and coffee in the Dune Encyclopedia, 171 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: so at some point I'm going to fire that up. Okay. 172 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: Going back to the email, Ranada said, Okay. So she 173 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: said she and her partner live in Wisconsin now, but 174 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: a few years ago they moved to New Zealand, and 175 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: she says, distilled water isn't readily available to buy, and 176 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: we didn't have a distiller ourselves. At first, we were 177 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: distraught that our coffee would taste bad, but it turned 178 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: out that our tap water was actually quite close to ideal. 179 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: This fascinated and excited my partner, so when he saw 180 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: an advertisement for a water tasting event, he just had 181 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: to go, thinking he would find they're like minded flavor 182 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: enthusiasts like himself. She you're enough. They brought waters from 183 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: around New Zealand and the world and had participants guests 184 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: the origin. But he was moldly embarrassed to learn that 185 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 1: this was put on as a joke and the organizers 186 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: weren't going to educate him on why the waters tasted 187 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: the way they did. And then she attaches a news 188 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: article about the event, and then one final question, she says, 189 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: did you know that there was an NPR piece on 190 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: the science of drinking? Uh? This is drinking water, not 191 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: drinking alcohol, the science of drinking that was published at 192 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: about the same time as your episodes. Coincidence or were 193 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: you inspired by this research? And then she links to 194 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 1: an NPR piece and finally says, love your show, wish 195 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: you and your family is a great two. Thank you 196 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: for bringing me and so many others joy all the best. Renata, Well, 197 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: thank you so much for not a great email. Uh okay, 198 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: I guess to take things in more or less random order. 199 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: You know, when you said the water tasting event was 200 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: a joke, I thought, surely the joke was going to 201 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: be that all the water actually came out of the 202 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: same hose round back outside the restaurant. But I didn't 203 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: see any obvious indication of this in the article. Maybe 204 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: maybe I missed it somehow. Uh So, so I'm not 205 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: sure what you're getting at there. What seems like the 206 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 1: like New Zealander humor can be a little a little dry, right, Yeah, 207 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's hard to It may be hard to get 208 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: to to to to catch on too, if you're you're 209 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: looking in the wrong direction. I know people have done 210 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: that before, like you know, selling people on the idea 211 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: of here's various fancy bottled waters, but it all came 212 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: out of a hose. Oh yeah. And then of course 213 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: they're they're various wine experiments. Uh. But meaning to come 214 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: back to that on the on the show, because I 215 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: know we have like there was like an old episode 216 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 1: where we very briefly talked about one of these studies 217 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: where they're you know, they're kind of doing a gotcha 218 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: moment by saying, ah, you were not you know you 219 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: you you were just confusing. You confused red wine with 220 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: white wine, uh and uh and so forth, which I 221 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: mean some of that I think can be illuminating about 222 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: you know how much you know, language and and priming 223 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:00,199 Speaker 1: we put into our experience of taste sensations at a 224 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: glass of wine or a beer or anything. But but 225 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: on the other hand, like all of that is important, 226 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: Like you can't I feel like it's kind of cheap 227 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: to discount like knowledge of where something came from, or 228 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 1: the history that went into the culture, the traditions that 229 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 1: went into it, and just bloil it all down to 230 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: just this pure sensory experience, because that's you know, that's 231 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,839 Speaker 1: not how we work with our our food culture. Oh sure, yeah, yeah, 232 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: I wonder about I know some of the studies you're 233 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: talking about where they like give people cheap wine and 234 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,599 Speaker 1: ask them to do tasting notes as if it's super expensive, 235 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: and then it's like, oh, you didn't even know this 236 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: was cheap or whatever. I don't know, I think that 237 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: I don't know. I I don't want to be too 238 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: critical because I'm not actually looking at those studies right now, 239 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: but I remember looking at some of that stuff and 240 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: thinking that it was kind of leaving out some important 241 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: factors of of like the experience of tasting things in general. Yeah, 242 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: but anyway, yeah, well we can come back to it. 243 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: We could definitely look at that. Uh So, As for 244 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: the question about the timing of thirst stories on our 245 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 1: show and on NPR, No, I didn't have any idea, 246 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: and I think the episodes were my idea to do so, Rob, 247 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: I don't know if you heard this at the same time, 248 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 1: but this just happens sometimes. I remember people used to 249 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: ask us about this, especially when it would happen on 250 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: different How Stuff Works podcasts, Like occasionally stuff you should 251 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: Know would cover the same topic as us in the 252 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: same week, and people would ask if we did that 253 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: on purpose. Uh No, I mean, we don't collaborate on 254 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: on like planning topics out or anything like that. And honestly, 255 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: I think if we could predict that in advance, we 256 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: would avoid it since we have a lot of audience overlap. 257 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: So it just happens, like generally, if there if I 258 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,199 Speaker 1: hear something really cool on NPR or certainly on another podcast, 259 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: and I don't listen to a ton of podcasts, but occasionally, 260 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,959 Speaker 1: you know, I listen to something and um, and if 261 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: I do hear something cool and think, oh, that would 262 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: be a cool topic for us to explore, I would 263 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: The added part of that is explore and maybe you know, 264 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: three to six months. We can't really jump on it 265 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: right now because I feel like they just they just 266 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: did a great job with that. What what could we 267 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: contribute at this point? Yeah, actually the same here. I 268 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: would say that, um, you know, ultimately, everything I suggest 269 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,559 Speaker 1: to cover on the podcast is pretty much necessarily because 270 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: of something I read somewhere else. Ultimately, but uh, there's 271 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: usually a bigger time lag. It's something I read months 272 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: ago which kind of ferments in my brain for a while, 273 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: and then I eventually come back around to it. Yeah. Yeah. 274 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: The main exception to this, I would imagine would be 275 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: when when we occasionally have guests on and sometimes those 276 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 1: guests have a book coming out, and so uh yeah 277 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: you hear Mary Roach talking about her new book on 278 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: our show, and yes she's also talking about the new 279 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: book on this other podcast or on this NPR shows 280 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: that you know, obviously, all that ends up landing around 281 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: the same time publishing timelines. Yeah. Yeah. But finally coming 282 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: back to your idea of the comparative illusion, and it's 283 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: it's similarity to the Moses effect. I really love this. 284 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting. It's it's just another indication 285 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: that there is something so much more to verbal communication 286 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: than just a literal reading of the words in each 287 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: sentence we speak or here, since we can so often 288 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: say things or I think especially can pose questions that 289 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: are literally nonsensical as phrased, and yet somehow most of 290 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: the time people understand what we're trying to say. We 291 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: understand what we're hearing, and we just take it in 292 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: stride and respond as if the person phrase the question correctly, 293 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: which you know, we assume is what they were trying 294 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: to ask. Right now, I want to come back to 295 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: the the idea of of different waters being selected for 296 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: the brewing of coffee. Um, somebody should take this and 297 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,640 Speaker 1: run with it, like pick a particular water and make 298 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: that be like the guiding principle behind your your coffee franchise. 299 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: I'm thinking like Florida Water Coffee. That can well, you 300 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: can to just take the world by storm with that. 301 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: Oh Man. To revisit a recent show topic, heavy Water 302 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: Coffee company, it's all you know, you get your du tier. Um, 303 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a risky it's a risky lifestyle, 304 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: but it's the heaviest Okay, Rob, do you wanna let's 305 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: see do you want to do. This message from Brett 306 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: connecting to some older episodes we've done about the ant 307 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: parasite fungus Opeo cor deceps. Sure Brett writes in and says, Hey, 308 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: Robin Joe, I know you guys have touched on zombie 309 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: ant fungus many times, but I don't recall you mentioning 310 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: this study from Apparently the researchers discovered through electron microscopy 311 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: that the fungus weaves into and around muscle fibers throughout 312 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: the body, but doesn't invade the brain. To quote the 313 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: paper quote, fungal cells were found throughout the host body 314 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: but not in the brain, implying the behavioral control of 315 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: the animal body by this microbe occurs peripherally. Additionally, fungal 316 00:16:55,840 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: cells invaded host muscle fibers enjoyed together to form net 317 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: works that encircled the muscles. These networks may represent a 318 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: collective foraging behavior of this parasite, which may in turn 319 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: facilitate host manipulation unquote. So the question I post to 320 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: you too is this what is scarier at parasite living 321 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: in your brain and turning you into a zombie or 322 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: the parasite leaving your brain fully in tact so that 323 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 1: you are forced to observe the horror of your body 324 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: being driven to an involuntary death. Uh. They include the 325 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: quote the link to the paper. Love the show, It's 326 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: genuinely the best podcast out there. Don't ever stop Brett. 327 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: Oh thanks Brett. Yeah, that this is a question for 328 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: David Cronenberg. I mean they're both. They're both horrible fates 329 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 1: to behold, right, the losing control of your body or 330 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 1: losing control of your mind. I mean really, and I 331 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 1: think we all think about this probably all the time 332 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: as we get older. Right, Um, you know which what 333 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 1: what is more dear to me? Uh? You know, and 334 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: preferably you'd want to hold onto both and just the 335 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 1: parasites leave you completely alone. But uh you know, uh 336 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 1: not if the parasites have anything to do with it. 337 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:13,239 Speaker 1: As for the particular paper here in this revelation, I 338 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: do remember covering it in some form, but I'm gonna 339 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: loss to remember how if it came up in a 340 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: particular episode, or if I did a blog post about 341 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: it back when blog posts were a thing. I do 342 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: remember reading it because it's certainly, you know, turns the 343 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: tables on our on our on what seemed to be 344 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: our understanding of this scenario in the past. Well, yeah, 345 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: and I know we have covered OPEO court a SPS. 346 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: So if if it was not this paper we were 347 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: looking at, I wonder what else it would have been. 348 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm not sure, but anyway to give the 349 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: full reference in case you want to look the paper 350 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:47,959 Speaker 1: up for yourself. It's published in P and A s 351 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: INEN by Frederickson at All and it's called three Dimensional 352 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 1: Visualization of a Deep learning Model Reveal complex fungal parasite 353 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 1: networks in behaviorally manipulated ants. Alright, This next message is 354 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: from Matt. It says, Hey, Robert and Joe. I thought 355 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: I would drop you a line on the topic of 356 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: thirst because I seem to have a weak thirst impulse. 357 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: What I mean by this is I often don't have, 358 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: or at least rarely notice myself being thirsty until I'm 359 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: quite far along the way towards dehydration. It's often to 360 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: the point that if I forget to drink, I will 361 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 1: develop migraines from dehydration. In response to this, I find 362 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: I often need to schedule out when I drink, such 363 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: as drinking and glass during every even hour throughout the day, 364 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: or I will drink between each appropriately timed task, or 365 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: carry a water bottle with me and just constantly sit 366 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 1: at it when my activities at work are well suited 367 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: for that one thing that I think is interesting about 368 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 1: my situation. Though I don't though I don't have a 369 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: strong thirst impulse, I do experience the satiation after drinking, 370 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: even if I didn't feel thirsty to begin with. It's 371 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 1: when I forced myself to drink. My brain goes, oh, yeah, 372 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: I forgot to mention we were thirsty. Thanks for that. 373 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: And this is interesting, Matt, because it seems to totally 374 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: go along with some of the findings of that thirst 375 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: research we were looking at, which was one of these 376 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 1: findings was that thirst is not sated by the reverse 377 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: of the process that created it. So you know, the 378 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: thirst is created by this osmolality sensing sensing mechanism in 379 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: the brain that detects dehydration and it tries to get 380 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,919 Speaker 1: you to drink. But then when you drink, that good 381 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: feeling you get from swallowing the water is a different process. 382 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: It's not just reversing the process that made you thirsty, 383 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: because it actually takes like ten to fifteen minutes or 384 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: so or maybe even more for your body to actually 385 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: become hydrated from that water you drank. Yeah, it's not 386 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 1: as simple as like a thirst meter in a video game, 387 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: where it's like, oh, well, my character is thirsty, you 388 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: better drink a bunch of water. Uh, And then you 389 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 1: just remember to keep looking at it to tell uh 390 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 1: what you need more or if you're good right. And 391 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: this is important for a number of reasons that we 392 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 1: got into in detail in the episode. So if you 393 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: haven't listened to our third series yet, you go back 394 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: and check that out and then you'll know what we're 395 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: talking about. Oh. But then back to Matt's email. Matt 396 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: suggests a topic after this, which is that he thinks 397 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,360 Speaker 1: maybe we should look into the idea of using indicator 398 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: plants and insects as in a garden to understand the 399 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:28,400 Speaker 1: condition of the soil and environment that exists there. And 400 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: he he says, I'm not sure the best way of 401 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: describing this, but I will try to give you examples. 402 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: One would be when you see a large number of 403 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: dandelions growing in the garden, I mean a lot, not 404 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 1: just a few here and there, you can infer one 405 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 1: or more conditions is true about the soil, such as 406 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: the calcium levels are low and or the soil is 407 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: very hard slash compacted. I have no knowledge of this myself, 408 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: but Matt, I will trust you're on the right track there. Anyway, 409 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: He attaches some videos and links to a book about 410 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 1: this idea of these indicator plan and an insect species 411 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: that that are supposedly signals of soil health and so Yeah, 412 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: I do think this is an interesting topic. Soil doesn't 413 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: get enough of a look, does it, rob We we 414 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: could we could definitely talk about soil. Yeah, yeah, I mean, 415 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: I know we've we've touched on soil a little bit, 416 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: but it's uh, you know, a soil is alive. Soil 417 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: is is a rich and complex thing. I think One 418 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: of the things we've touched on before is like vampires 419 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: in legend the especially especially saying the novel Dracula, where 420 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: they have to bring their grave soil with them in 421 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: order to continue to thrive like they ultimately in that 422 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: in these cases anyway, vampires know what's up. They know 423 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: that the soil is essential and if life is to thrive, 424 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: the soil has to be has to be maintained, cared for, 425 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: and uh and provided all right, Well, I thin guess 426 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,560 Speaker 1: we've chatted enough here. We're gonna go ahead and close 427 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: the mail bag for now, but we'll be back next 428 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: week with more listener mail. So hey, keep writing in 429 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: about current episodes, past episodes, future episodes, episodes that don't 430 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 1: even exist yet, episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 431 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: episodes of weird House cinema, uh, you know, any anything 432 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: in between. It's all fair game. Huge thanks as always 433 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you 434 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 435 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 1: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 436 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: for the future, or just to say hello, you can 437 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: email us at contact at stuff to blow your Mind 438 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production 439 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts my heart Radio, 440 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 441 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.