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Speaker 1: Rivals as a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to Rivals, the show about music beefs and

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Speaker 1: feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and

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Speaker 1: I'm Jordan, and today we're gonna talk about one of

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Speaker 1: the biggest bands of the eighties, The Police. They burned

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Speaker 1: hot and fast for just a few years before coming

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Speaker 1: to an abrupt and weirdly civil and given the epic

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Speaker 1: and sometimes physical fights in the studio and on the road,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty amazing how friendly they've all remained over the years.

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Speaker 1: It is amazing because when I think about the Police,

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Speaker 1: I usually just think about them hating each other, especially

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Speaker 1: Sting and Stewart Copeland. You have the two biggest personalities

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Speaker 1: in the band, and then you have Andy Summers in

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Speaker 1: the middle, whose greatest talent was knowing when to stay

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Speaker 1: out of the way of the other guys in the band. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the three members of the Police came from wildly different

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Speaker 1: backgrounds and they had wildly different personalities, and this would

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Speaker 1: account for the band's distinctive sound and also for the

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Speaker 1: fact that the band was vollatles hell pretty much from

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Speaker 1: the start. And I think it's important to note that

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Speaker 1: these were not like school friends coming together. These were

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Speaker 1: all fairly established players, especially Andy Summers, who was already

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Speaker 1: in like his mid thirties and a veteran of like

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Speaker 1: the mid sixties blues beat scene. So they formed not

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Speaker 1: out of friendship, but out of a shared talent and ambition.

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Speaker 1: And when these ambitions started to diversify, that's when the

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Speaker 1: problems began. And this happened pretty much immediately and in retrospect,

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Speaker 1: the Police were born to implode. An Exting later said,

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Speaker 1: we didn't have a great deal in common. We were

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Speaker 1: of different generations in Andy's case, and weld together by

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Speaker 1: a flag of convenience. And Stewart Copeland was even more blunt.

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Speaker 1: He said, we were attached at the wallet. And yet

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Speaker 1: when these three guys came together, they really did form

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Speaker 1: I think, a unique band in rock history. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they were a trio, but they weren't really a power

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Speaker 1: trio per se. I mean, usually in rock trios the

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Speaker 1: guitarists as the leader, but in the Police, the rhythm

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Speaker 1: section took the lead while the guitarist provided musical eating

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Speaker 1: and that reflected the pecking order of egos in the band.

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Speaker 1: You know, Sting and Stewart Copeland. They demanded a lot

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Speaker 1: of sonic real estate. Well Andy Summers was able to

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Speaker 1: accommodate that, and somehow you put all these different elements

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Speaker 1: together and it worked and they became just an incredibly

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Speaker 1: successful pop rock band. So I'm excited to explore how

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Speaker 1: this happened. So without further ado, let's get into this mess.

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Speaker 1: In the beginning, it was Stuart Copeland's band. I cannot

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Speaker 1: stress that enough. That's the theme we're gonna come back

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Speaker 1: to over and over again in this episode. He was

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Speaker 1: the worldly son of a CIA agent and he lived

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Speaker 1: all throughout the Middle East before settling in London in

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Speaker 1: the mid seventies, where he was drumming in a cult

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Speaker 1: favorite prog rock group called Curved Air. One of the

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Speaker 1: great prog rock names right there, Curved Air, I love that.

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Speaker 1: What does that even mean? I don't know. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I keep thinking of like the Grateful Dead, like heavy

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Speaker 1: air thing. I I can't figure it out. But he

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Speaker 1: played with them for about two years before punk started

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Speaker 1: to dominate the British music scene, and he was intrigued

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Speaker 1: by this, you know, unbridled passion and vitality of the genre.

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Speaker 1: Which was so at odds with his really schooled musical background.

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Speaker 1: And he also was looking to achieve some degree of

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Speaker 1: musical success which he wasn't getting through curved Air. So

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Speaker 1: he decided to form what he called a guerrilla band,

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Speaker 1: which is like a stripped downside project to play this

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Speaker 1: rough and ready rock and roll. And he had an

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Speaker 1: idea of who he wanted for a singer. Yes, and

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Speaker 1: that's where Sting enters the picture. But before we talk

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Speaker 1: about this thing, I just want to say quickly like

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Speaker 1: I love Stewart Copeland. I love him as a drummer.

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Speaker 1: I love his interviews. He has this like incredible energy

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Speaker 1: to him where I think he's a really funny guy,

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Speaker 1: but there's like always this like weirdly like angry edge

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Speaker 1: to him, I think, especially when he's talking about Sting

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Speaker 1: that kind of scary. Yeah it is. It's very magnetic

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Speaker 1: and great and it definitely powers his drumming because his

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Speaker 1: drumming is also very energetic and polyrhythmic, and uh ended

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Speaker 1: up being a huge, I think element of the Police sound.

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Speaker 1: But of course, as you said, this was Stewart Copeland's

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Speaker 1: band at the beginning, but it wasn't gonna made his

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Speaker 1: band for very long, because before long he meets this

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Speaker 1: guy named Gordon Sumner who insists on calling himself Sting

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Speaker 1: for some reason. It was his sweater. He had a

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Speaker 1: sweater that looked like a B and all like, I

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Speaker 1: guess his school friends would call him Staying because he

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Speaker 1: looks like a B and that's just stuck. Isn't it

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Speaker 1: funny though, that like he looked at that as an

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Speaker 1: endearing nickname and not like something to live down or

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Speaker 1: be like, all right enough with the Sting. I guess

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Speaker 1: he just hated the name Gordon. That seems to be

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Speaker 1: the only explanation for that at the time. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was weird that Sting ended up being the singer

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Speaker 1: in a new wave band because he really had no

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Speaker 1: interest in rock music at all. He was playing in

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Speaker 1: a band calls called Last Exit, which was this jazzy group,

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Speaker 1: very out of step with what was going on in

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Speaker 1: music at the time. But Stewart Copeland ends up seeing

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Speaker 1: this band. He doesn't really like the band's music, but

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Speaker 1: he feels that Sting has something on stage. He has

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Speaker 1: a presence to him. Obviously, he was a very good

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Speaker 1: looking guy. He has a good voice and there's something

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Speaker 1: about the thing that just makes Stuart Copeland feel that

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Speaker 1: this is the guy to be the singer in his

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Speaker 1: new punk rock band. So he ends up bringing Sting

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Speaker 1: into the fold. And then they also have this punk

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Speaker 1: rock guitar player named Henry Pottavanni, who I guess is

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Speaker 1: the pete Best of the Police. He ends up not

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Speaker 1: being a part of their history for a very long time.

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Speaker 1: He's going to get booted here shortly. But he was

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Speaker 1: really the only I guess, legitimate like punk musician in

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Speaker 1: the Police, because you know, Sting really had no connection

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Speaker 1: to that kind of music in Stewart Copeland. I mean

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Speaker 1: he could play circles around the average punk drummer. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean they really started off as a fake punk band,

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Speaker 1: and again it was very much Stewart's fake punk band.

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Speaker 1: Their early songs for these mile a minute punk screeds

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Speaker 1: that that Stewart had written, and he wrote the band's

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Speaker 1: first single song called Fallout, and he founded his own

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Speaker 1: label called The Legal to release it in nineteen seventy seven.

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Speaker 1: And the Police were really a Copeland family affairs. Older

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Speaker 1: brother Miles managed the band and his brother Ian was

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Speaker 1: the booking agents. So again very much. This was Stewart's thing,

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Speaker 1: and in the spring of nineteen seventy seven, Sting and

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Speaker 1: Stewart were booked for a side gig backing this guy

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Speaker 1: Mike Howlett, for a project called stroni Um ninety and

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Speaker 1: they played a few gigs in France and recorded some

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Speaker 1: demos with this guy which released later after the Police

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Speaker 1: blew up. And the other member of this project was

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Speaker 1: Andy Summers, who, as I said earlier, was a longtime

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Speaker 1: London music veteran. He was a decade older than the

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Speaker 1: others and he backed people like Eric Burdon and Kevin

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Speaker 1: Eyres of the Soft Machine, and he came up through

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Speaker 1: the London mods scene with people like Jeff Beck and

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Speaker 1: Eric Clapton and Jimmy Page. So he was a different

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Speaker 1: generation and he clearly outranked Sting and Stewart. But Andy

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Speaker 1: loved working with these young guys. He really thought they

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Speaker 1: had something special and he more or less invited himself

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Speaker 1: into the Police, which is funny because Stewart wasn't really

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Speaker 1: all that keen on and he tried to talk him

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Speaker 1: out of it. He was saying, you know, you're you're

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Speaker 1: a you're a big session star, where just these there's

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Speaker 1: no money in what we do, Like, why would you

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Speaker 1: want to join us? But and he ends ends up

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Speaker 1: getting his way and he joins in. His first role

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Speaker 1: in the band is to remove Henry. It's the only

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Speaker 1: true punk guy in the band, Henry the guitarist. And

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Speaker 1: it's great if you watch Henry and interviews, it's really hilarious.

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Speaker 1: He's just laid back Corsican guy who seems to really

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Speaker 1: not give a shit about anything. He's really kind of

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Speaker 1: my favorite member of the story. Yeah, like he really

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Speaker 1: had no regret about, you know, being kicked out of

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Speaker 1: this band that ended up being again just hugely successful.

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Speaker 1: I saw an interview where he was like, I had

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Speaker 1: no idea that Sting was gonna one day, right every

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Speaker 1: breath you take, you know. I was like, oh, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you don't want me in the band, that's fine.

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Speaker 1: I think at the time even he felt relieved because

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Speaker 1: he was this legitimate punk and I think his friends

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Speaker 1: that were in the punk scene they looked at the

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Speaker 1: police as a joke, you know, like they weren't a

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Speaker 1: real punk band. So I think in the short run especially,

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Speaker 1: he felt like, well, it's probably not very cool to

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Speaker 1: be playing in this band. It is crazy when you

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Speaker 1: look at the Police in the early days, just like

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Speaker 1: on paper, you know, you have this prog rock drummer,

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Speaker 1: you have a jazz bow bass player, and you have

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Speaker 1: this like guitar player who I'm sorry, but he was

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Speaker 1: old as hell at this time. Like he was like

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Speaker 1: I think you said mid thirties, Like he was like

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Speaker 1: late thirties. Really, I mean he was like on the

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Speaker 1: verge of turning forty almost by the time he joined

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Speaker 1: the Police. Uh, you know, he was like you know

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Speaker 1: Paul McCartney's generation. You know, he wasn't like the Johnny

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Speaker 1: Rotten generation. But Andy Summers really ends up being a crucial,

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Speaker 1: i think component of this band because he's someone that

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Speaker 1: I think just in terms of his demeanor, as I

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Speaker 1: was saying before, I think he was very adaptable as

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Speaker 1: a guitar player. He didn't have the ego of a

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Speaker 1: lot of guitar players where you know, it would be

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Speaker 1: about his guitar riffs or his guitar solos. He really,

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Speaker 1: I think became like a textualist in the Police that

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Speaker 1: he could add shadings to this very busy rhythm section

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Speaker 1: that was in that band. The other crucial thing about

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Speaker 1: Andy Summers again that because he wasn't a punk guitar,

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Speaker 1: is it really freed Sting up as a songwriter to

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Speaker 1: start writing more sophisticated kinds of songs. Uh. You know

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Speaker 1: you mentioned Fallout being a Stewart Copeland composition. You know

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Speaker 1: that's a very you know, by the numbers type punk song.

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Speaker 1: But now that you have Andy Summers in the band,

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Speaker 1: they had the ability to write songs that like sounded

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Speaker 1: superficially like punk. It if you actually like dug into

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Speaker 1: the musical guts of what they were doing. They were

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Speaker 1: actually using like pretty complicated chords and different time signatures,

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Speaker 1: and it really added an element I think to those

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Speaker 1: songs that ultimately made them more pop friendly. You know,

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Speaker 1: they could have the aggression and the energy of punk,

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Speaker 1: but have something extra that would appeal to people that

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Speaker 1: would never listen to a punk record. Yeah. I think

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Speaker 1: Stewart a couple of Like I said an interview, you know,

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Speaker 1: we were like a punk band because we played four

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Speaker 1: chords and our songs, but there were four very complicated chords,

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Speaker 1: and that was the difference. Yeah, it was. It was

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Speaker 1: the fact that, like you know, most punk bands, they

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Speaker 1: only knew four chords, whereas the Police knew like forty

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Speaker 1: chords and they could pick the four right chords to

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Speaker 1: put in, you know, or they wouldn't always be the

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Speaker 1: same four chords. And it was just like a much

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Speaker 1: wider template to draw from that I think ended up

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Speaker 1: benefiting the Police once New Waves started to burn out

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Speaker 1: a little bit. And as you said earlier, the addition

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Speaker 1: of any Summers to the band really allowed Sting to

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Speaker 1: develop the kind of songs that he wanted to write,

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Speaker 1: because he wasn't really interested in writing punk song at all,

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Speaker 1: so the band didn't really seem like it was something

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Speaker 1: that really interested him much. But now that he was

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Speaker 1: able to have this wider palette to explore, he was

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Speaker 1: writing stuff like in his earlier jazz band Last Exit.

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Speaker 1: And that kind of is when he starts to flourish

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Speaker 1: as a songwriter. And it's also when Stewart realizes that

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Speaker 1: he's not the strongest songwriter in the band anymore. I

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Speaker 1: think he even said years later, the minute and he joined,

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Speaker 1: it stopped being you know, strictly my endeavor anymore. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he was not Andy is ten years older than he is.

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Speaker 1: He's not somebody secession professional He's not somebody that's going

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Speaker 1: to take a backseat to Stewart, so he knew at

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Speaker 1: this point it was a band of equals. It was

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Speaker 1: a band of three producers, as they would later say,

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't just his project anymore. And probably one

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Speaker 1: of the best early examples of this strange blend of

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Speaker 1: all the different musical backgrounds is Roxanne, their breakthrough song,

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Speaker 1: because Sting wrote it in almost like a Bossa Nova style,

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Speaker 1: almost like an Astro Gilberto kind of song, because he

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Speaker 1: knew and he could handle that sort of thing. But

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Speaker 1: bossa Nova in the punk scene would have obviously have

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Speaker 1: been suicide. So Stewart put this reggae ish backbeat to it,

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Speaker 1: and that's really where you get the band's unique sound,

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Speaker 1: this blend of diverse influences where you get punk, new wave, jazz,

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Speaker 1: reggae all coming together, and you compare Roxanne with Fallout,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like two totally different bands, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just you. You can't compare. And Roxane would become

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Speaker 1: their breakthrough hit, but it was a slow burn. I

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Speaker 1: think it took about a year for it to really

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Speaker 1: climb the charts. And during this period when they were

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Speaker 1: when the song was out, but it really wasn't doing anything.

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Speaker 1: The Police went to America and played small clubs. I

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Speaker 1: think their first American gig was at CBGB's and UH,

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Speaker 1: and by the time they returned to England they were stars.

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Speaker 1: Effectively it was. Roxane was released in nineteen seventy nine

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Speaker 1: and became a huge smash. Uh. They released their debut

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Speaker 1: album I can never pronounce any of these albums out

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Speaker 1: Landos de More. I think that's in UH in November eight,

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Speaker 1: which had incredible songs can't Stand Losing You next to

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Speaker 1: You so lonely born in the fifties, and they set

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Speaker 1: out on this huge epic global tour after at and

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Speaker 1: that pretty much instant fame from that point on. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it seems almost like an opposite Jimmie Hendrix phenomenon, like

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Speaker 1: where you know, Jimi Hendricks had to go to England

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Speaker 1: to become famous and then he came to America and

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Speaker 1: he was almost known as like this British phenomenon and

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Speaker 1: that's how he caught on in America. And with the Police,

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Speaker 1: that was the opposite. Where As you said, they put

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Speaker 1: out Roxanne, it's not really a hit. They come to

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Speaker 1: America and they play a three week tour that is

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Speaker 1: like a sensation, and they really start to take off

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Speaker 1: in the States, and then they go back to England

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Speaker 1: and they're known as this American phenomenon, and that's where

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Speaker 1: they really start to hit it big in England. And

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Speaker 1: even though it took a while for Roxanne to catch on,

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Speaker 1: it seems like after that the Police really were a

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Speaker 1: rocket ship. I mean, if you look at their career

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Speaker 1: from like seventy eight to eighty four, they're putting out

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Speaker 1: an album pretty much every year. They're you know, having

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Speaker 1: hit singles. They're going on these like lengthy tours where

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Speaker 1: not only are they playing you know, Europe in the

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Speaker 1: United States, but they are a true international band, playing

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Speaker 1: markets that most rock bands would never play, you know,

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Speaker 1: whether it's like Hong Kong or Thailand or all over

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Speaker 1: the world. And you really see that, like Sting is

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Speaker 1: becoming like a pretty huge star, like he's really catching on.

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Speaker 1: He's obviously the front man of the band. He's this

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Speaker 1: really good looking guy. He has an interest in acting.

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Speaker 1: He ends up appearing in the nineteen seventy nine film Quadraphenia,

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Speaker 1: which is the beginning of Sting being looked at as

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Speaker 1: a separate entity from the police, even though his appearance

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Speaker 1: in that film obviously, you know, I think benefited the

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Speaker 1: band in their celebrity, but there starts to be this

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Speaker 1: theme in their interviews, like where people are asking about,

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Speaker 1: you know, are the other two guys are they feeling

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Speaker 1: bad about all the attention that Sting is getting? You know,

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Speaker 1: is this going to undermine the solidarity of the band?

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Speaker 1: And of course when the media starts asking questions like this,

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Speaker 1: it just implants the idea in the mind of the band,

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Speaker 1: this becomes an issue that they can't avoid. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm just thinking of like the No Doubt video Don't Speak,

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Speaker 1: you know, where you know, instead of when Stefani being

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Speaker 1: the attractive blond in the band, it's Sting is the

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Speaker 1: attractive blond in the band. And it really seems like,

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Speaker 1: you know, that becomes a major, uh, you know, theme

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Speaker 1: in the Police's career. It's certainly a theme in the

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Speaker 1: two documentaries about the police, which by the way, Quicksidebar.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's two documentaries about the police and they're

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Speaker 1: both spearheaded, like one spearheaded by Andy Summers and the

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Speaker 1: other one is spearheaded by Stewart Copeland, and I can't

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Speaker 1: recall another instance of that in rock history, like where

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Speaker 1: like members of the band are making separate documentaries about

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Speaker 1: the band, like from their perspective, and it's not the

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Speaker 1: most famous guy in the band, Like like there's no

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Speaker 1: sting documentary about the police, but you know there's there's

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Speaker 1: Can't Stand Losing You is the Andy Summers documentary, and

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Speaker 1: trying to remember the Stewart Copeland one. The Stewart Copeland

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Speaker 1: one is like not very good, Like you've seen both

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Speaker 1: of those. Yes, I mean Kids Us is incredib a ball.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's got. But there is that weird scene

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Speaker 1: when he goes to his photo gallery show. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's yeah, because there's this thing where, uh Andy Summers

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Speaker 1: just started taking photos when they were on tour, and

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Speaker 1: uh he ended up being like I think, like a

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Speaker 1: relatively renowned photographer and they have this photo show this

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Speaker 1: is like years after the Police broke up, and like

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Speaker 1: there's this section of the show where it's just like

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Speaker 1: photos of like naked groupies and presumably like Andy Summers

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Speaker 1: hotel room, and like Andy Summers wife is there and

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Speaker 1: like she poses next to like the shot of like

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Speaker 1: a woman's like pubic hair, Like I think it has

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Speaker 1: like a piece of fruit on it or something. I

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Speaker 1: can't remember exactly what it is, but I was like,

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Speaker 1: this is this kind of weird. Like I just feel like,

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Speaker 1: if I was a rock star, I would keep the

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Speaker 1: groupie photos in like a separate file on my laptop,

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Speaker 1: you know, keep that away from the mrs. I feel

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Speaker 1: just like, out of respect for the wife. It just

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Speaker 1: seems weird to me. I just want to say quick,

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Speaker 1: the Stuart couple movies called Everyone Stairs, Yes, but anyway,

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Speaker 1: that's just the sidebar on that. I just think it's

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Speaker 1: interesting that both of those guys felt the need to

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Speaker 1: make a documentary. It just speaks to how the power

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Speaker 1: struggles in this band continued well after they broke up,

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Speaker 1: like they still had to have the last word, you know,

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Speaker 1: in these movies. And there's a great clip in the

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Speaker 1: Antie Summers documentary where reporters asking Sting about writing more

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Speaker 1: songs than the others, and you see him visibly cringe

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Speaker 1: like he he clearly felt that the press was trying

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Speaker 1: to drive awage between him and the rest of the band,

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Speaker 1: And obviously there was an element of truth to this.

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Speaker 1: But it was also a case of reporters knowing that

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Speaker 1: stories about a band in turmoil sell a lot more

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Speaker 1: than you know, a happy, peaceful band. So there's obviously

347
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Speaker 1: enough tension in the band to go around. But it's

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00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,880
Speaker 1: weird how early the whole like when are you going

349
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Speaker 1: to go solo? Conversation was had in the press like

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Speaker 1: it seemed to be there from the very beginning, which

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Speaker 1: is I think it's strange, very premature. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think that there was a perception among the press

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Speaker 1: that somehow Stuart Copeland and Antie Summers were like the

354
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Speaker 1: supporting musicians for Sting and I don't think that that's

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Speaker 1: a fair impression to have of this band. I think

356
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Speaker 1: the Police at their best, to me were a real band.

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Speaker 1: And you know, my favorite record by them is Zenyata Mundada,

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Speaker 1: which comes out in eight and this is a record

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Speaker 1: that really I think was the turning point for them becoming,

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Speaker 1: you know, a major rock band in the world. You

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Speaker 1: I mean, the first two records had a lot of

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Speaker 1: hits on them, you know, like regarded the Blanc comes

363
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Speaker 1: out in that is like message in a bottle on there,

364
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Speaker 1: the beds too big without you bring on the Night

365
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,800
Speaker 1: all these classic songs from the Police, but Zenyata Mandada

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Speaker 1: is the one I think where people really felt like, oh, yeah,

367
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Speaker 1: this this is like the biggest band in the world.

368
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,880
Speaker 1: And you knew that they were getting big because they

369
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Speaker 1: recorded that album in Holland, because they were tax exiles

370
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Speaker 1: at that point. You know, that's yeah, like when the

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Speaker 1: British rock band reaches the tax exile moment in their career,

372
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Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, you're big, You've you've achieved a level

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Speaker 1: of stardom that this is like rarefied air, and you know,

374
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,359
Speaker 1: they were dealing with all the usual pressures of course

375
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Speaker 1: working on that record. I think Sting later said that

376
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Speaker 1: he felt that the whole world was waiting for this record,

377
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,960
Speaker 1: that there was like this machinery in place that was

378
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,560
Speaker 1: waiting for that album to come out and to sort

379
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,000
Speaker 1: of take it away from them and take it out

380
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,040
Speaker 1: in the marketplace and and kind of transform it into

381
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,280
Speaker 1: something that really went beyond what this band was in

382
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,800
Speaker 1: the early days of their career. Um and of course

383
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,320
Speaker 1: this record ended up spawning very famous songs. Don't Stand

384
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Speaker 1: So Close to Me is the first track. Do Do

385
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,440
Speaker 1: Do Do Da Da is another big hit. Those are

386
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,639
Speaker 1: both Sting songs, of course, But when I think about

387
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Speaker 1: that record, I really think of it as an album

388
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,840
Speaker 1: showcasing the instrumental chemistry of that band, the interplay of

389
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Speaker 1: the bass, drums, and guitar, and that's where I love

390
00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:50,919
Speaker 1: about it, Like there's an element to it that to

391
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,399
Speaker 1: me sounds like a little Jammie like that they were

392
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:55,800
Speaker 1: working those songs out in the studio and it was

393
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Speaker 1: about spotlighting what each guy brought to the band, and

394
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,760
Speaker 1: it just seems like on that record things just seem

395
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,240
Speaker 1: perfectly calibrated in a way that they weren't going to

396
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,640
Speaker 1: be on the albums after that. Yeah. Instrumentally watching them

397
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,200
Speaker 1: and listening to their inner plays incredible. And it's even

398
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,439
Speaker 1: more amazing when you realize looking back on it that

399
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,000
Speaker 1: this was around the time when Sting really began to

400
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,399
Speaker 1: assert himself more in the studio and this was no

401
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,880
Speaker 1: longer a democracy. Sting was very clearly a dominant songwriter

402
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:24,920
Speaker 1: at that point, and when he would bring his songs in,

403
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,240
Speaker 1: it a very clear idea in his mind of how

404
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,639
Speaker 1: he wanted them to sound, and it was really stifling

405
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,679
Speaker 1: to to Stewart and Andy. I think Stewart would later

406
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,160
Speaker 1: say he was very clever in his vision. But for Sting,

407
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,760
Speaker 1: there's only one artistic truth. All his creative juices tell

408
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:41,840
Speaker 1: him this. But the other two mortals in the room

409
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,520
Speaker 1: also had their musical truths. So it became really this

410
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,320
Speaker 1: power struggle of will you let me support you, will

411
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,480
Speaker 1: you let me actually contribute. It's like, you know the

412
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,199
Speaker 1: later Beatles sessions with Paul McCartney, who comes in with

413
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,359
Speaker 1: a with a fully fleshed out song and he just

414
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,679
Speaker 1: wants the other guys to be side man. And I

415
00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,520
Speaker 1: think that that was something that was happening with Sting

416
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,000
Speaker 1: and the police here, and it really they felt smothered.

417
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,720
Speaker 1: Stewart always good with the quotes, uh said years later

418
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,399
Speaker 1: he said that being in police was like wearing a

419
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:12,919
Speaker 1: protest suit made out of barbed wire, which I'm not

420
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,680
Speaker 1: sure what that means exactly, but it's a very colorful

421
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,320
Speaker 1: quote and I love it. I mean, I think, genuinely speaking,

422
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,240
Speaker 1: when you look at the Police records, I feel like Sting.

423
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,000
Speaker 1: You know, he was writing the hits. He was writing

424
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,439
Speaker 1: I think, the most accessible pop songs on on those records,

425
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,640
Speaker 1: and it makes sense that his records became the most

426
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,359
Speaker 1: famous but I actually appreciate the Andy Summers and Stewart

427
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 1: Copeland songs because I think, generally speaking, they're more eccentric,

428
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,679
Speaker 1: they're more experimental, they're they're a little like more art

429
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,240
Speaker 1: rock and even more prog rock. And a great example

430
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,360
Speaker 1: of that is this song called behind My Camel, which

431
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 1: ended up being a pretty controversial track within the band

432
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,400
Speaker 1: from Zenyatta Mandada. This is an Andy Summers song, and

433
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 1: I love this song. It reminds me of like a

434
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,879
Speaker 1: Brian Eno track from the mid seventies, like you can

435
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,639
Speaker 1: imagine that song being on Another Green World or Before

436
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,119
Speaker 1: and After Science. But for whatever reason, Sting hated Behind

437
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,640
Speaker 1: my Camel. He told the story later on about how

438
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,600
Speaker 1: he actually like took the master of that song and

439
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:16,199
Speaker 1: buried it in the garden, like behind the studio or whatever,

440
00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,200
Speaker 1: uh to, like prevented from ending up on the record.

441
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,160
Speaker 1: But then Andy Summers, I guess like got a dug

442
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,640
Speaker 1: it back literally dug it back up, and he got

443
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,959
Speaker 1: it on the record, and that song actually ended up

444
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,480
Speaker 1: winning a Grammy later on, I think for like Best

445
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,160
Speaker 1: Instrumental Rock Performance, and I'm glad he did. I mean,

446
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 1: that is a song that I think brings something unique

447
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 1: to Zignata Mandata. It ensures that it's not just a

448
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,960
Speaker 1: collection of Sting pop songs, but there's maybe something a

449
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,359
Speaker 1: little stranger, and that's something that I think police records needed,

450
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,919
Speaker 1: and I think the records after this don't quite have

451
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,879
Speaker 1: that collaborative element as much, and they suffer from it.

452
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I agree, and I think that that's

453
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 1: really when Sting begins to take over those later records.

454
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:03,119
Speaker 1: But you know, bearing a tape in in the garden

455
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 1: is pretty extreme. And this is really the era when

456
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 1: the fights it wasn't just sniping. Sting would later admit

457
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 1: that we didn't like each other very much. At this point,

458
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,919
Speaker 1: there were three big egos pulling in different directions. I

459
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 1: started to be very ruthless and very cruel in order

460
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 1: to get the songs done and Stings tempered during this

461
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 1: period is somewhat legendary. Stuart's alluded to physical confrontations and

462
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 1: many interviews over the years and uh and he has

463
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 1: described an incident when Sting once blew up at him,

464
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 1: just apparently just letting loose with us, just a string

465
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 1: of Florida insults that just left everyone in the room

466
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 1: white faced. And shock, he said, And Stewart apparently used

467
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 1: to have a message, Uh Sting is a C word

468
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,719
Speaker 1: written on his drum skins, so he'd hit them all

469
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 1: the harder. And this is this is barely after three

470
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 1: years into the band. You know, it was very quickly

471
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,679
Speaker 1: that they reached the stage of physical altercations and bearing

472
00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: tapes in the garden all right hand, We'll be right

473
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 1: back with more rivals. So that brings us to the

474
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: next Police record, which is Ghost in the Machine. And

475
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 1: it seems like one of the few things that all

476
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,640
Speaker 1: three members of the Police agree on is that this

477
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 1: is where things really started to turn toxic in the band.

478
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,160
Speaker 1: And again it has to do with Sting really asserting

479
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 1: his control. This idea that not only is he going

480
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 1: to be the main songwriter, and not only is he

481
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,159
Speaker 1: going to discourage the other guys from writing, but this

482
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,360
Speaker 1: is the beginning of him actually starting to show up

483
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,919
Speaker 1: with like more or less completed demos. So he has

484
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 1: an idea of how he wants the song to sound,

485
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 1: and it's really limiting like the remaining creativity that the

486
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 1: other guys have. I think especially Stuart Copeland was feeling that,

487
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 1: you know, he didn't want to play like a drum machine,

488
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 1: you know, or like the very regimented beats that you

489
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 1: might have on a demo. He's a very expressive drummer.

490
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: He wanted to bring his expression to the songs, but uh,

491
00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 1: it wasn't something that this thing was going to allow it.

492
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 1: I think Sting, you know, to to his credit, I mean,

493
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 1: I think to some degree you could say that he

494
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: earned the right to take controls because of all the

495
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 1: hits that he was writing and that continued on Ghosts

496
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: in the Machine. I mean, this is a record that

497
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,120
Speaker 1: has every little thing she does is magic and spirits

498
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 1: in the material world, and you know, songs that are

499
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 1: still played on classic rock radio all the time, and

500
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: you can hear them starting to move away from that.

501
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 1: I guess white reggae sound of like the first three records,

502
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 1: that more sort of you know again, funky music that's

503
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 1: about the interplay of the musicians. It's really starting to

504
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 1: move more towards I think what stings solo career is

505
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 1: going to be, you know, which is more of like

506
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: the middle of the road type pop sound that is

507
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 1: very lush and rich and has great melodies, but is

508
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 1: less about you know, an energetic rock band type vibe. Yeah,

509
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: I always thought Ghost in the Machine was, you know,

510
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: to use my favorite spinal tap reference of all time.

511
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,679
Speaker 1: This was their jazz Hodyessey album. This was there like

512
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 1: Kitchen Sync album where they weren't afraid to get weird

513
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 1: and trying to expand their sonic palette. Which, again, a

514
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 1: band trying to expand their sonic palette is right up

515
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 1: there with recording abroad for tax reasons. In terms of

516
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 1: like red flags for where their bands at in the career.

517
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: It's that's rarely a good thing, and usually usually trouble,

518
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: you know, personal trouble follows after that. But yeah, this

519
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: album was layered with just really dense multi tracked vocals

520
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 1: and synthesizer keyboards and horn riffs. Sting was very adamant

521
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 1: on this album that he was this is his quote.

522
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: After our first three albums, we wanted to go so

523
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 1: far away from the sound we already created. I was

524
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: determined to play some saxophone, man. I had that bolded

525
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 1: and underlined in my notes. I was determined to play

526
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: some saxophone. That's like the last thing you want to

527
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 1: hear your singers say. Yes, that's when you must feel

528
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: like if you're the drummer in that band, you must

529
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: just feel like I wish there was an objector seat

530
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 1: on my drum kit. I could just shoot out of

531
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 1: this studio, man, because that you don't want to hear

532
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 1: your your singers say it's time to play some saxophone,

533
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: even though I don't really playing. They don't know how

534
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 1: to play. Yeah, and this this whole new approach really,

535
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 1: and so all the other members of the band, I mean,

536
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,880
Speaker 1: Andy Summers was really open about his hatred of synths

537
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: and the whole non police sound, and in later years

538
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: he'd say I was getting disappointed with the musical direction

539
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: around the time of Ghost in the Machine, with the

540
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 1: horns and the synth coming in the fantastic raw trio field.

541
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: All the really creative and dynamic stuff was being lost

542
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: and we ended up being a backing singer doing his

543
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: pop songs. Yeah, you really see stings ego come into play.

544
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 1: Although in fairness this thing the other two guys had

545
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 1: pretty big egos too, And like in the case of

546
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: ghosts in the Machine, I just think about the story

547
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 1: for the Andy Summers song Omega Man, which is like

548
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 1: a pretty good song. It's a good deep cut from

549
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: that record, But apparently there was a time where I

550
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: think A and M Records had earmarked that song as

551
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 1: being a potential first single from Ghosts in the Machine,

552
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: and Sting put his foot down immediately and said, there's

553
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: no way Omega Man is going to be the first single.

554
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: And of course, you know, there's the usual ego thing

555
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: there where I'm sure Sting felt like it should be

556
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: one of my songs that's a single, But this is

557
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 1: a record that had every little thing she does is

558
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: magic on it and spirits in the material world, Like,

559
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: how can you not put out one of those songs

560
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: as the first single? I mean, Omega Man again, it's

561
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: a it's a fine deep cut, but like I feel

562
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: like when you listen to Ghosts in the Machine, like

563
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: those two songs, like those two big hits, they jump

564
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 1: out because not only are they famous, but like I

565
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 1: think they're clearly the best songs on the record. Oh yeah,

566
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 1: I mean it gets back to to Sting being like

567
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: Paul McCartney. He was very rarely wrong in his ear

568
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: for what would do well and what made a hit.

569
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: Maybe he could have been more sensitive about it or whatever,

570
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: but yeah, Stings sense for what worked was almost always

571
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: dead on at this period too, So yeah, I mean

572
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: it seems strange that the A and M executives would

573
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: look at Omega Man as the lead single when those

574
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 1: other Sting classics were right there alongside it, But supposedly

575
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: that's how it went down. Um, there's a lot of

576
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 1: darkness on the album. Specifically, the album ends with a

577
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: track called Darkness and it's it's it's bleak. There's references

578
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: to violence in Northern Ireland and invisible Sun and skinheads

579
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: and Nazis and rehumanize yourself and it's just it's it's

580
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 1: a dark album. And Sting would say that he wanted

581
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 1: to create the impression of something struggling to the surface

582
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: with this music, something hidden in the recesses of the mind,

583
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 1: something from our dark subconscious waiting to be seen. And uh,

584
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: that was kind of where he was at in his

585
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: life because the success of the band was disastrous for

586
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: all three members in their personal lives. I mean, all

587
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 1: their marriages were breaking down, and they kind of saw

588
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 1: themselves on this road that they didn't really know how

589
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: to get out of. Because this was who they were now.

590
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: They saw that the only way to sort of make

591
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: a living at this point was to make records, and

592
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: I think Sting would later say that then it hit

593
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: us that this is how we're gonna have to make

594
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,719
Speaker 1: our living for the rest of our careers. I started

595
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: looking for a way out. Stings said around this era, Yeah,

596
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: you really see the police. They're trapped now in a

597
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: system where on one hand, the way that they're making

598
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: records is clearly like not good for bad morale, you know,

599
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: it's really eating a way at any kind of unity

600
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 1: that they might have once had. And yet on the

601
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: same token, it's incredibly successful, Like they're making records that

602
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 1: people really like, and that culminates with the album and

603
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: Swan song Synchronicity, And it's fascinating to me because like

604
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: they had this really bad experience making ghosts in the Machine,

605
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: but then when it comes to doing Synchronicity, they go

606
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: back to the same studio. It's Air Studio in the Caribbean,

607
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: George Martin's stewage studio, like in luxurious, uh surroundings. It's

608
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: a beautiful place, but like you just feel like, why

609
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: did they go back there after so much negativity and

610
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,239
Speaker 1: not only did they not really learn any lessons from

611
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: Ghosts in the Machine in terms of like how to

612
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 1: you know, baby be a little bit better inter personally.

613
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: It's just like it seems like things got exacerbated. Like

614
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: they're in the studio and like the air conditioning isn't working,

615
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: so it's like literally like a hothouse in the studio

616
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: that they're having to work on. So that's making them miserable.

617
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: And then the way that they're recording, it's like really

618
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: getting far away from again the group interplay that they

619
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: had an albums like Xeniana Mandada. Like they're literally recording

620
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: in three different rooms I think, like Sting was in

621
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: the control room, Stewart Copeland was like in a room

622
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: upstairs I think, and then Andy Summers was the only

623
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: person in the actual studio. So like they're laying down

624
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: tracks and like they're literally separated, like they're they really

625
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 1: can't communicate. Yeah, like they're not a band at all,

626
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: and it's just feeding this negativity that had already existed

627
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: and Ghost in the Machine and it's just worse now.

628
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: And like Stuart Copeland said, basically like we hated each

629
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: other's guts at this point, but meanwhile you have Sting

630
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: coming up with like songs that are going to be

631
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: even more popular than anything he's like written for the

632
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: Police before. So while they're at a personal like rock bottom,

633
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: they're about to hit like their highest peak professionally. Right.

634
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: This is the album that has every breath you take.

635
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: And it's amazing to think that a lot of the

636
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: songs on the record this thing would bring in the

637
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: band wouldn't hear until he brought them into the studio

638
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: the day that they were due to be recorded. And uh,

639
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: and this song was one that you know, obviously probably

640
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: they're they're defining song, i'd say, but the one that

641
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: really ripped the band apart because Staying again had a

642
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: very specific idea of how he wanted it to sound.

643
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: In this case, he wanted Stuart Copeland to play a

644
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: very simple, steady, straight ahead beat, and for Stewart it

645
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: was like, well, okay, you're writing all the hits, fine,

646
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: but at least let me do my thing and be

647
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 1: me and contribute in the last way that I can.

648
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 1: And Sting dictating the terms on that was completely intolerable

649
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: to Stewart. Yeah, and again, it's one of those situations

650
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: where I'm sympathetical Stewart Copeland because I'm sure Sting was

651
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: totally obnoxious this time, you know, like being very dictatorial

652
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 1: and and just being Sting. I mean Sting seems like

653
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: a kind of a difficult person in a lot of ways,

654
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: but this is every breath you take. This is like

655
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: one of the most famous pop songs of like the

656
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: last forty years. And having Stewart Copeland do like awesome

657
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: drum fill on that song, it's not going to serve

658
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: the track, like it didn't need stuertcope and to assert himself.

659
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: The song itself was so strong that this thing was

660
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: right to just tell him to lay back, you know,

661
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: serve the song, don't just serve your own artistic impulses

662
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: or or your own ego by you know, showing off

663
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: with fancy drums. I think the bigger problem with Synchronicity

664
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: and Sting himself highlighted this is that it's essentially a

665
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: solo record for Sting that he's now writing from a

666
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: very personal point of view, and I think, you know,

667
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: again he's starting to write lyrics that are more like

668
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: what his solo career is going to be like than

669
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: with the Police, Like if you look at like early

670
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: Police videos, they're basically all the same. It's like those

671
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: three guys just dancing around acting like idiots. You know,

672
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: they're very happy. It's very up. You know. It's like

673
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: I was watching like the videos for like Don't Stand

674
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: So Close to Me, and every little thing she does

675
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: is magic and like it's it's infectious. There's like a

676
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: boy band element almost of the Police. Like these three

677
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: blonde guys. They're all cute, they're all wearing like short shorts,

678
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: they're pretty hunky, and they're just having a good time.

679
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: And then you get to like synchronicity and it's like

680
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: very you know, sort of ponderous songs like all these

681
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: Carl Young references on that record, and you know, songs

682
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: like King of Pain and like Wrapped around your Finger

683
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: and like Murdered by Numbers. Like there's not a lot

684
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: of laughs on that record, and it seemed like, you know,

685
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: that element of fun had really been drained out of

686
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: the Police by this point. And that was a huge

687
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: sticking point for for Stuart and Sting also because they

688
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: would say that they approached music from completely opposite directions,

689
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: and for Sting, music was a pain killer, a way

690
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: to sort of escape from this world that he saw

691
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,479
Speaker 1: as being really evil and harsh and grim, and Stewart

692
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: would say, for me, music is a celebration, like let's

693
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: light up the room and have some fun. And you

694
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: see sort of the light and darkness on Synchronicity, I mean,

695
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: even down to the fact that the album was was

696
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: sort of split in half with all the up Temple

697
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: songs on one side and the sort of dark, slower

698
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: ones on another. But yeah, as you said, every breath

699
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: you take when you listen to the lyri it's it's

700
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: weird that a lot of I was a wedding DJ

701
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: for years in college, and I can't tell how many

702
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: times I played that song as like a first dance,

703
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 1: and it's a weird first dance because it's like a

704
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: Sting said, it's a really sinister song. It's like all

705
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 1: about like surveillance and stalking essentially, and then King of Pain,

706
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 1: like you said, and wrapped around your finger. And Stewart

707
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: would say that Sting needed to be able to relate

708
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: to songs authentically from an authentic emotional place to be

709
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: able to sing them, and that also limited Andy and

710
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: and Stuart's contributions to songwriting because if they were writing

711
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 1: these sort of happy, joyous, celebration songs and Sting absolutely

712
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: wasn't feeling it, which he wasn't at this time, and

713
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: his marriage is breaking down, and King of Pain was

714
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 1: a very real, uh, sort of cry for help for

715
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 1: or he was at that point in his life. He

716
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,399
Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to tackle those like that. Was wasn't

717
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 1: something that really he was able to do and bring

718
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: himself to, so that they also felt him in by

719
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 1: basically writing songs that were true to how Sting was feeling,

720
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 1: which was miles away from how they were feeling. So

721
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 1: again we had this, you know, and crazy dichotomy in

722
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:02,240
Speaker 1: the Police, like we're the way that they're making records

723
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: is just tearing them apart. And yet when you look

724
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: at the results, it's like you couldn't ask for anything more.

725
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: Like the album Synchronicity, it comes out in eight three,

726
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: sells eight million copies in America alone, Every Breath You Take,

727
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: an enormous hit, an iconic song of the era, ends

728
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: up putting the Grammy for Song of the Year, and

729
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: the Police become a stadium band. Like if you look

730
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: at the Synchronicity tour, they're playing stadiums all over the world,

731
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: and I would love watching clips of the Police from

732
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: that time. Like Sting is wearing like that Joseph and

733
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 1: the amazing technicolor dreamcoat coat, like that huge coat with

734
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 1: all the tassels on it. It's like rainbow colored, which

735
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,439
Speaker 1: I don't know what the deal is with. I guess

736
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 1: it reflected the three colors on the cover of the album.

737
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe that was the idea, but it's this very

738
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 1: grandiose uh uniform that he's wearing every night. And again

739
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: that's another contrast with the early days of the band,

740
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: which we're not that long ago. I mean we're talking

741
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: maybe three years earlier. They were this scruffy band that

742
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,320
Speaker 1: would play very energetic shows. Again, much more about a

743
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: group's spirit, a group energy playing off of each other.

744
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: And now there's just this like larger than life stadium

745
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: rock band with this like platinum blonde singer who was

746
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: clearly up in front of the band. And really they

747
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:15,919
Speaker 1: sort of hit their high water mark when they sell

748
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: out Shaye Stadium, which was sort of the benchmark of

749
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: rock and roll success since the Beatles played there in

750
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 1: six I mean that was kind of the apex of

751
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: what they set out to do. And uh, I guess

752
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: at that point that was really when Sting kind of thought, well,

753
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: this is it. We did it, we climbed the mountain. Really,

754
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 1: the best thing we can do at this point is

755
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 1: to just do it again. And it really wasn't all

756
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 1: that fun to get here, So why would we do that,

757
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: go through all the how we've been through just to

758
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 1: repeat this success that really isn't all that fulfilling. So

759
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: I guess the same night that they played this this

760
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: huge show at Shaye Stadium, he turned to Andy and said,

761
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't get any better than this. We

762
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: should stop, and Andy, to his surprise, agreed. And uh.

763
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 1: There's some debate about whether or not Stewart actually agreed

764
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 1: to sort of out on top and say goodbye, because

765
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: he would say later on that he was kind of

766
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:05,800
Speaker 1: the one that was most likely to want to carry on,

767
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: because his general attitude was this is great. You know

768
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: I can carry on doing this. This is fun. I

769
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: like doing this. But then eventually I think he saw

770
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 1: the logic in going out on top and not you know,

771
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: not starting the decline at all. Yeah, I mean, I

772
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 1: think for Stewart and Andy, it's a much different proposition obviously,

773
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,879
Speaker 1: because I think Sting felt rightly that he didn't really

774
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: need to be in a band anymore. Like he was

775
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: now a huge star, he was well positioned to go

776
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: into a solo career where he could do whatever he wanted,

777
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: where he wouldn't be, you know, having to fight with

778
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,280
Speaker 1: these two guys anymore, and he could work with different

779
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: musicians and and and and really expand his music, I think,

780
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: really going back to the kind of music that he

781
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 1: made before The Police. I mean Sting would later say

782
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: that like the first rock band he was ever in

783
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: was The Police, that he was actually more of a

784
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 1: jazz pop singer, and that that's the direction of course

785
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: that he ended up returning to once he started putting

786
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: out solo records. It's interesting to me too, because like

787
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 1: this Shape Stadium show is like I think it's like

788
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: in the middle of that Synchronicity tour, like they ended

789
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: up touring like into the Spring of four, So like

790
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 1: this idea that they weren't going to stay together, like

791
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 1: it was hanging over the band at the moment where

792
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: they should have just been on top of the world.

793
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, we're the biggest band that there

794
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 1: is right now. And yet you know, especially for Stuart

795
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: and Andy, they knew that, like the clock was ticking

796
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: for rock stardom. I mean, I do think that the

797
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: police deciding to do that is kind of an awesome move. Like,

798
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: I can't really think of another example of a band

799
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: or an artist that was that successful, really in the

800
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: prime of their career deciding to like walk away voluntarily.

801
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 1: I mean, usually it's because someone dies or you know,

802
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: there's some other sort of outside circumstance that forces bands

803
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: to quit. But like the police, there was no reason

804
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: for them to quit other than Stings saying that he

805
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: didn't want to be in the band anymore. Yeah, And

806
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of theories about sort of his

807
00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: motivation for wanting to kill it, other than it just

808
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 1: being you know, miserable, which is reason enough. I mean,

809
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: there's some people say that his marriage had disintegrated over

810
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: the prior years and it was just such a miserable

811
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: experience to watch the slow decline of his romantic relationship

812
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: that he didn't want to go through that with the band,

813
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: and he just wanted to to end it before it

814
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: just became so toxic that they you know, would never

815
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: want to speak again. So and then there are some

816
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:23,839
Speaker 1: who thought it was more ego driven, and I think

817
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: it was in I think it was in Stuart's memoir

818
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: or Andy's memoir where they talk about the song publishing

819
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 1: for the band was actually split three different ways. So

820
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: maybe Sting got tired of of dividing up his income

821
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: equally when he was doing the lion's share of the songwriting. Uh,

822
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: and he figured, you know, he could make it work

823
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: by keeping all the writing royalties and hiring the best

824
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: jazz musicians in the world to come and play for him,

825
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: which you know, seems like a win win. But as

826
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: you said, yeah, that the band would later say that

827
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: it was best that they split at that moment before

828
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 1: kind of embarrassing themselves. It was a case of quit

829
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: while you're ahead and leave him wanting more, and their

830
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 1: artistic reputation was preserved for all alternity. You know, the

831
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: legend remains intact, is the Jimi Hendricks thing. And Uh,

832
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: it's really even more compelling to me that they never

833
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 1: made a formal announcement that they were technically breaking up.

834
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: You know, they they went sort of Beatles style and

835
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: just quietly stopped, which I thought was interesting. Yeah, that

836
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 1: was a deliberate thing to even though like you know,

837
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 1: Andy Sommers has talked about how they knew that the

838
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: band was over. You know, it's just that their management

839
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: thought it would be, you know, have a better mystique,

840
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: just just to leave it mysterious. And it is interesting

841
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 1: because you know, they do have this decision where they're

842
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: gonna like walk away at the top of their career,

843
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: but then not long after that they did come back briefly,

844
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,280
Speaker 1: and you know, you talked about how their artistic reputation

845
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 1: is intact, it's only because people don't remember that they

846
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 1: actually got back together like two years later. You know,

847
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 1: I feel like that's been totally just like memory hold,

848
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,919
Speaker 1: you know, and maybe for the best. But yeah, six

849
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,879
Speaker 1: Sting called up Stuart Copeland and Andie Summers and asked

850
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: that they would want to play a few shows for

851
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 1: uh there was this fund reason to for Amnesty International,

852
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 1: which thing was involved with of course, and you know

853
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: you two was involved with at that time. I think

854
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,479
Speaker 1: Peter Gabriel was also involved there. So it's a pretty

855
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: big deal. And you know, the Police still a huge

856
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: band in the mid eighties, so having them play these

857
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: shows was going to be great publicity for this We're

858
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: very worthy cause. But apparently, like even playing just like

859
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: three shows was like supertense for these guys, and they're like,

860
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is really good. But then

861
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:29,280
Speaker 1: they there was this idea that, Okay, maybe touring together

862
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: doesn't work, Let's try to go back into the studio.

863
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: Because the record company they wanted to put out the

864
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 1: Greatest Hits record, and as is often the case, they

865
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 1: felt that if there were some new songs on the

866
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 1: Greatest Hits record that that would help sell more copies.

867
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: So the police have this idea that they're going to

868
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: record new versions of old police songs, like no one

869
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: wants that, nobody wants. Nobody wants that, like songs that

870
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: aren't even that old. We're talking about Don't Stand so

871
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: Close to Me and to Do Do Do Do Dot

872
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: Dot songs that were only about five or six years

873
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,720
Speaker 1: old at that time. And you know, it's a terrible

874
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: idea to record songs that you've already recorded. But like

875
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: it even got worse because Stewart Copeland was playing polo

876
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 1: before these recording sessions, and look, you can guess what's

877
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,240
Speaker 1: gonna happen. All right, he's playing polo on a horse,

878
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 1: and guess why he falls off the horse. I think

879
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: he breaks his shoulder and he can't play drums. Which, look,

880
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: if you listen to the show any musicians out there,

881
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: you know, if you're a musician, you listen to the

882
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:29,839
Speaker 1: show because you want to learn about how to talk

883
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: to your bandmates. You don't want to repeat the mistakes

884
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: of history. Please. We talked about this in our Steven

885
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 1: Steele's episode Steven Steeles had a horse incident. Don't don't

886
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: ride horses, or if you're gonna ride a horse, ride

887
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: a pony, right, ride a slow pony. Don't ride the

888
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: fast horse if you're in a successful band, because you

889
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: will fall off, you will break a limb. And in

890
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: the case of this Police reunion, he couldn't play drums

891
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 1: on these tracks, so they had to use a drum machine,

892
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 1: which if you listen to the Police, big part of

893
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 1: the sound is Stewart Copeland's drums. So if you remove

894
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: that element and it's just sting in Andy Summers playing

895
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:12,399
Speaker 1: on this like dirgy synthpop reimagining of like these old

896
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: Police songs, it's not going to turn out well. And

897
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 1: you know, I think that's why this has been memory hole,

898
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: because like, no one wants to hear the version of

899
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: don't stand so close to Me. I mean, it's it's awful.

900
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,240
Speaker 1: It's even more terrible when you realize that they recorded

901
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: it in one day and spent about two more weeks

902
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 1: of their session time arguing over which drum machine to use.

903
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: Like that's when when they all knew like, okay, we

904
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,320
Speaker 1: are not going to do you know, when when Stewart

905
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,359
Speaker 1: heals this is this is over, We're not actually gonna

906
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 1: ever reunite the studio again because we spent I think

907
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 1: it was actually three weeks it's been. Andy Summers later

908
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: say that they were arguing about which drum machine was

909
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 1: better to use. So yeah, this was not a happy experience,

910
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 1: and those songs were, you know, as you said, memory

911
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 1: Hold not well received by the public or the band

912
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 1: for that matter. And Sting would or say, you know,

913
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: it was too early, we shouldn't have done that. A

914
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: few years later, the band reunites again, this time it's

915
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: at Sting's wedding, which is incredible. There's actually footage of this,

916
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 1: I think it's on YouTube. After the hired band for

917
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 1: the night had wrapped up. Uh. The instruments were just

918
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: left on stage, and the guests were encouraging Andy and

919
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: Stewart to to get up there with Sting and Uh,

920
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: which again very telling that Andy Stewart were invited to

921
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: Sting's wedding, Like it really says the outside of the

922
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: musical realm, they were still friendly enough to like attend

923
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 1: each other's functions and stuff like that. Um Sting was

924
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: not down for having a reunion at his wedding, you know,

925
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 1: on his wedding day, but a couple of drinks later

926
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 1: he threw his hands up and said, you know what,

927
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 1: let's do it. He gets up on stage, they perform

928
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: Message in a Bottle in rock Sand and it was

929
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: basically three drunk guys goofing off. But according to Sting,

930
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: even on his wedding, even though they were trashed, the

931
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: old animosity intentions appeared instantly said we were back on

932
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 1: the same state of mind. Stewart was scowling at me

933
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: and throwing drama sticks at me. It was it was terrible. Yeah,

934
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 1: they have tension there that when they were inducted in

935
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 1: the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and I think

936
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: there was two thousand three they performed there, and apparently

937
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 1: there was tension there too. It's like anytime you get

938
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 1: these guys together, the old hatreds just instantly spark up.

939
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 1: Even if even if it's like presumably like a low

940
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: pressure situation like a drunken wedding gig, you know, these

941
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: guys still have that inherent tention that where they have

942
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,320
Speaker 1: to strike out against each other. And yet in spite

943
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 1: of this toxicity, there is this ongoing narrative in all

944
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: of their careers where people keep asking them if the

945
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 1: police will ever reunite. And in the case of Stuart

946
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: Copeland and Andy Summers, it's a little more obvious why

947
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 1: people are asking that just because their careers weren't as

948
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 1: high profile. After the police broke up, uh, Andy Summers

949
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: ended up kind of drifting into this like instrumental jazzy world.

950
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: He also was scoring films. He did the score for

951
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: a Weekend at Bernie's, which is a great achievement um

952
00:45:55,640 --> 00:46:00,399
Speaker 1: Stewart Copeland also was scoring films. He actually the score

953
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: for a film I Love, the Francis Coppola movie Rumble Fish,

954
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: which was pretty early in his film scoring career, but

955
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 1: his score for that is so great and it's very unusual.

956
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 1: It actually reminds me of the scores that John Brian

957
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: ended up doing for Paul Thomas Anderson, like on Punchdruck Love,

958
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: like a very rhythmic score that is really about like

959
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 1: kind of throwing the viewer off rather than you know,

960
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 1: soothing them or you know, telling them how to feel,

961
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 1: acting as an emotional cue, like a lot of scores.

962
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,720
Speaker 1: And then you have Sting and Sting of course hugely

963
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 1: successful in the eighties and nineties. And this is the

964
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: part of the episode where I have to make my

965
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 1: confession of like having terrible taste, because you know, we

966
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,719
Speaker 1: had our Van Hagar episode where I talked about how

967
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: I loved Van Hagar as a kid, and I had

968
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 1: to say that, like I had a weird love of

969
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 1: Sting solo albums, like when I was like ten and

970
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 1: eleven years old, Like you know, my friends were listening

971
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 1: to like Guns and Roses, and I would occasionally like

972
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 1: sneak off to my room and listen to like Dream

973
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 1: of the Blue Turtles, you know, and love j n R. Two.

974
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 1: But I just had this thing like where the midlife

975
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: crisis boomer music of the Soul Cages spoke to me

976
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:12,320
Speaker 1: in for whatever odd reason. And I still have a

977
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:14,120
Speaker 1: lot of love for like the first like three or

978
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:17,879
Speaker 1: four Sting solo records. So weird you mentioned that because

979
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:19,720
Speaker 1: I around the same age and I was like eleven

980
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: or twelve when Brand New Day came out. I secretly

981
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 1: loved that album. I loved Desert Rose in my mind,

982
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: you know, growing up in like an apple orchard in

983
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 1: New England, in the middle of nowhere. I remember thinking like, Oh,

984
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 1: this is like, this is what the city sounds like.

985
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 1: This is what the cool, sophisticated people listened to. Like

986
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: like in High Fidelity when John Cusack's character goes to

987
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,320
Speaker 1: dinner with Katherine Sada Jones is like, you know, sophisticated

988
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 1: city friends and stuff like that was what I imagine

989
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 1: was being played at like cocktail parties and stuff and

990
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 1: in the bright lights of Boston. So I yeah, no,

991
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 1: I have a a soft spot for for the most

992
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: ridiculous as I think that Sting is for his his

993
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,399
Speaker 1: various lute enterprises that we'll talk about later. Uh yeah,

994
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: I of his solo stuff. Yeah, I mean the thing

995
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: with Staying is that he's always been a good songwriter.

996
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: I think he's always had a great ear for melody,

997
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: and I think he's always been a strong singer. The

998
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 1: thing that he lost after the Police broke up is

999
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: that I think his bands, even though they had incredible musicians,

1000
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 1: it didn't have the energy that a real band has.

1001
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: It doesn't have the tension that a real band has.

1002
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 1: So his records just got blander and blander. You know,

1003
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: there wasn't a real energy to them. There wasn't that

1004
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 1: spark that someone like a Stewart Copeland could bring because

1005
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: he would rub up against Sting and they would have

1006
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,800
Speaker 1: sparks and friction because of that. And that's why I

1007
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:38,800
Speaker 1: think for all of stings solo success, people kept asking like,

1008
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: are the Police ever going to get back together? And

1009
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 1: for years he would always shrug it off and sometimes

1010
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,399
Speaker 1: even get annoyed by it. But once we get into

1011
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 1: the odds, it seems like he's warming up to it

1012
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 1: and we're really kind of ramping up to like the

1013
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:54,399
Speaker 1: big Police reunion that happened at the end of that decade. Yeah,

1014
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 1: I feel like the peak of staying sort of bland.

1015
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 1: This is an album he did for the Loot call

1016
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 1: Songs from the Labyrinth, which uh did so well that

1017
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,280
Speaker 1: even Sting was surprised, and he was sort of stumped

1018
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: what to do next, because, as he tells it, the

1019
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 1: most surprising thing he could do after going down this

1020
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 1: really uncommercial route was to do the most commercial thing

1021
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 1: imaginable and reform the police, which you know, took even

1022
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 1: the band by surprise. But apparently he made the call

1023
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 1: and within a week the contracts were all signed and

1024
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:27,280
Speaker 1: they were starting to book venues, and it came together

1025
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: incredibly fast. I mean, Stewart and Andy were we're ready

1026
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:32,560
Speaker 1: to go. And three months later they were playing a

1027
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 1: reunion set at the Grammys in Uh in early two

1028
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 1: thousand and seven, and the next day they did a

1029
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: small set at the Whiskey a Go Go, which was

1030
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: the same stage where they had their l A debut nine,

1031
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 1: and they announced that they had a new tour and

1032
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 1: uh and yeah. Sting was asked sort of why he

1033
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 1: was doing the one thing he always said he would

1034
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 1: never do. He said, I know things about music that

1035
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,960
Speaker 1: I didn't know then or couldn't express. I'm a better

1036
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 1: band leader now than I was then, which I thought

1037
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 1: was a very I guess it'd be silly to argue

1038
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 1: that Sting isn't the band leader, but also an interesting

1039
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 1: thing to say at the beginning of a long awaited

1040
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,800
Speaker 1: reunion of a very tension filled band, I have to

1041
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: say yeah. And it goes without saying that, like this

1042
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: Police reunion tour and ended up unfolding pretty much as

1043
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: you expect. I mean, behind the scenes, a lot of sniping,

1044
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 1: a lot of I think Andy Summers and Stuart Copeland

1045
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,720
Speaker 1: being alienated by Sting being a taskmaster, you know, being

1046
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 1: a control freak essentially, which I think those were qualities

1047
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 1: that manifested themselves towards the ends of the of the Police.

1048
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 1: But then you add, you know, twenty years of being

1049
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 1: a solo artist, and I'm sure it just made it

1050
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 1: worse because, like when Sting is in his own bands,

1051
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: there's no question that he's the leader, but like in

1052
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:47,759
Speaker 1: the Police, you know, in his own mind, if he

1053
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 1: felt like Sting feels like, oh, I'm the leader, I'm

1054
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 1: sure you know, Stewart Copeland and Andy Summers weren't necessarily

1055
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 1: looking at him like that. You know. There's a great

1056
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: Rolling Stone story that was written about the tour preparations

1057
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: for the reunion, and like David Frick writes about how

1058
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 1: he saw Sting and Andy Summers argue about the guitar

1059
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,120
Speaker 1: lick and walking in your footsteps for like a half hour,

1060
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,800
Speaker 1: like he just kept telling, kept telling, Yeah, it's like

1061
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:15,760
Speaker 1: over and over again, it's like, no, you're not getting

1062
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 1: it quite right, over and over again and again. This

1063
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 1: is the guy who played on the original record, so

1064
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 1: you think that he probably has a good idea of

1065
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 1: how to play it. But still, you know Sting as

1066
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 1: a perfectionist and putting Andy Summers through the ringer. And

1067
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,320
Speaker 1: yet this tour ends up being like one of the

1068
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 1: biggest earning tours of all time. It's a huge success. Again,

1069
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: they're playing stadiums again all over the world. And I'm

1070
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,840
Speaker 1: sure that, like for as annoying as Sting was like

1071
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: for Copeland and Summers, they must have hoped that, like

1072
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 1: they were going to keep this going, either stay on

1073
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 1: the road or maybe even make a record. But Sting

1074
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: made that clear that that was not going to happen.

1075
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 1: Have you seen that interview that the police did on

1076
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 1: that Elvis Costello show spectacle? Oh? I saw it, And

1077
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: then I saw the backstage footage in the Andy Summers

1078
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,760
Speaker 1: video where Sting it's it's it's it's just it's it's horrible.

1079
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 1: Sting is out with Elvis Costello first and they're talking

1080
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: and Elvis asks him, like, you know, how much long

1081
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 1: do you want to do this? Basically, and Sting, very

1082
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: as diplomatically as he can, says that he doesn't really

1083
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:21,279
Speaker 1: want to be in a band anymore. And then they

1084
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: cut to Andy and Stewart backstage waiting to come out

1085
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: and join him on stage, watching this on the monitors,

1086
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 1: and you see them stoically react to the news. I'm

1087
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 1: I'm sure it wasn't news to them, but just just

1088
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 1: confronting the fact that this was done and he does

1089
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 1: want to be with it's awful, and like, again, I

1090
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 1: understand things perspective, because I'm sure from his point of view,

1091
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: he's like, I already have a great career, you know,

1092
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:48,920
Speaker 1: on my own, I can go tour, I can sing

1093
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:51,440
Speaker 1: Police songs on my own, and I can make a

1094
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 1: lot of money. Although I don't think he could have

1095
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 1: played stadiums the way that the police did the Police, certainly,

1096
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 1: I think I think in the same way that like

1097
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 1: Simon and Garfunkele in some way is still more famous

1098
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: than Paul Simon, even though Paul Simon's had a great

1099
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: solo career. I still feel like the Police are more

1100
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: famous than staying as a solo artist, just because of

1101
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 1: classic rock radio. Like you hear Police songs all the

1102
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: time in a way that you don't necessarily hear Sting

1103
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: songs on the radio unless you're like at the dentist

1104
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:20,319
Speaker 1: office or you know, grocery store or something. But yeah,

1105
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:22,759
Speaker 1: it's just brutal to see that laid out for those

1106
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 1: guys and to see how it ends. And yet you

1107
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 1: talked about this in the introduction. For all of the

1108
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 1: rancor that's existed between these guys, they seem like they're

1109
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: friendly now, like like the recent stories about them coming together,

1110
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 1: like they go to each other's shows or you know,

1111
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 1: exhibits or whatever. They still support each other and it

1112
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:42,759
Speaker 1: seems like they're friends or maybe they're friend of me is.

1113
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: I don't know how to classify it, but they're each

1114
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 1: other's lives and it seems like they do like each other.

1115
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: I think for the most part. Yeah, it seems like

1116
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 1: they like each other in every other situation except for

1117
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 1: playing music. And maybe there is a bit of a

1118
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:57,799
Speaker 1: friend of me component involved too. I mean there's when

1119
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 1: Sting and was doing shows with Shaggy, which I still

1120
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 1: don't really understand too much of uh A phrase I

1121
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 1: didn't think I would say, um. And they did a

1122
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 1: show in l a. Uh Stewart Andy got seats right

1123
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 1: up front, and Stewart would say, yeah, we sat in

1124
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 1: the audience so that we could make snide comments and

1125
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 1: watch him from the front, so he could see us,

1126
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 1: like being like the Statler and Waldorf, the guy old

1127
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 1: guys from the Muppets, like up in the balcony. And

1128
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: so yeah, there's a little bit of like, you know, teasing,

1129
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 1: I think, good natured friend of me teasing. But yeah, overall,

1130
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 1: I think it's probably one of the best ways that

1131
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 1: a few this intense could have been resolved. Yeah, it's

1132
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: like if your friends can't laugh at your collaboration with Shaggy,

1133
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 1: I mean, like, do you really have any friends? I mean,

1134
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:43,439
Speaker 1: that's the sign of true love. I think we're gonna

1135
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 1: take a quick break and get a word from our

1136
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 1: sponsor before we get to more rivals. All right, now,

1137
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 1: just a part of our episode where we give the

1138
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 1: pro side of each part of the revelry. Let's talk

1139
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 1: about Sting first. I mean, look, Sting obviously from Roxan on.

1140
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:07,800
Speaker 1: He wrote the biggest songs in this band. You know,

1141
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:10,879
Speaker 1: he was the figurehead, He was the good looking guy

1142
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,879
Speaker 1: out front. He was a really good singer, and as

1143
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 1: we've reiterated in this episode, I think that for all

1144
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 1: of his abrasiveness, he did have the right instincts in

1145
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,440
Speaker 1: the Police. You know, I am a person who I

1146
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 1: think I tend to prefer the first three records. I

1147
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 1: like the energy of you know, Zignata Mundata and Regrettada Blanc.

1148
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 1: I like the interplay of the musicians, but you can't

1149
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,919
Speaker 1: false sting for taking them in this more. I guess

1150
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 1: produced direction when he was coming up with songs you know,

1151
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,359
Speaker 1: of the caliber of Every Breath You Take and every

1152
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 1: little thing she does his magic. I mean, he was

1153
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: coming up with great pop songs and he had a

1154
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 1: way that he wanted to realize them. And he was

1155
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 1: right to say that Stewart Copeland doesn't need to show

1156
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 1: off on a song like Every Breath You Take. The

1157
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 1: song itself was strong enough. So even though I think

1158
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 1: that ultimately destroyed the band, was good for his art

1159
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,840
Speaker 1: and looking back on it now, the songs are wouldn't

1160
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 1: matter about the Police, and it's why people still care

1161
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:08,919
Speaker 1: about this band. Yeah, I mean you just think about

1162
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:10,920
Speaker 1: what would have happened if they just continued down the

1163
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:13,960
Speaker 1: Stewart route and been kind of almost like a clash clone,

1164
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 1: fake punky band. I mean, it's just amazing to think

1165
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 1: what their reputation would have been if if it that

1166
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: had been the way that they went and just more

1167
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:23,800
Speaker 1: more songs that Stewart would have written, uh, instead of

1168
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:28,399
Speaker 1: you know, Sting's musical depth and lyrical substance. Uh, he's

1169
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 1: a killer songwriter and lyricist, not to mention an amazing basis.

1170
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 1: I feel like I've got a shout at his bass playing.

1171
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 1: I mean, he's an incredible instrumentalist. Who really I think

1172
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: that his jazz leanings really added something new and kind

1173
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 1: of created this new subgenre to the punk rock format.

1174
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:47,800
Speaker 1: He just this is really distinctive sound of the Police

1175
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:50,879
Speaker 1: that I think is traced to him. And uh, yeah,

1176
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 1: I think that. You know, he's obviously one of the

1177
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:55,719
Speaker 1: best selling artists of all time, and later on with

1178
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 1: the solo work, really elevated world music to a mainstream

1179
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:02,359
Speaker 1: Western audience. And uh, and he plays a mean luke too.

1180
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:04,919
Speaker 1: I mean, what are the Loot players can you name

1181
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:08,399
Speaker 1: their staying And you know, I'm sure that we'll get

1182
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 1: an email from like a loot expert who will list

1183
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 1: of many loot players, but Sting is the only loot

1184
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 1: player I could think of. Um, if we go to

1185
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 1: the pro Stewart Copeland slash Andy Summerside. You know, And

1186
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 1: I said this earlier, but I really believe it that,

1187
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 1: like for all of stings solo success, I think ultimately

1188
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: people look at the Police a little bit more fondly.

1189
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 1: And I think the Police are ultimately a little bit

1190
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 1: more famous than Sting. You know, Sting can obviously go

1191
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 1: out and do whatever he wants. He can play big shows,

1192
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 1: but when he's with the police, he's playing stadiums, you know,

1193
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 1: And and that is the difference. And it's not just

1194
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 1: the fact that he wrote big songs for the police.

1195
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: I think Stuart Copeland and Andie Summers they gave his

1196
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 1: songs a framework that just made them sound more exciting.

1197
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: You know. I think Sting on his own he could

1198
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 1: still write good songs, but like they didn't have the

1199
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 1: energy and the tension and the friction that the best

1200
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 1: police music has. And I think for that reason, you

1201
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:04,959
Speaker 1: really have to give those other guys their props also,

1202
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 1: you know, just on a one to one level, I

1203
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 1: think Stewart Copeland is a great drummer. I think he's

1204
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 1: like one of the great rock drummers of all time.

1205
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 1: And Andy Summers to me, is a really unheralded guitar player.

1206
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 1: You know, he's not a guy who's going to show

1207
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 1: off how fast he can play, although I think he

1208
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 1: was capable of playing a lot more notes than he

1209
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 1: actually played in the Police. You know, he's going to

1210
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:26,560
Speaker 1: serve the song, but at the same time, he's gonna

1211
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 1: do something interesting with his guitar sounds that you're not

1212
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:31,440
Speaker 1: going to get from any other guitar player. And I

1213
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 1: have to say that Andy Subbers to me, you know,

1214
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 1: for a guy who isn't listed often among the greatest

1215
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 1: guitar players ever, I think he really does have a

1216
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 1: distinctive feel in tone that when you hear it, you

1217
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:45,480
Speaker 1: identify it with the Police, and you know, if he

1218
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 1: weren't there, it just wouldn't have been the band that

1219
00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 1: they were. So yeah, I think as a band, they

1220
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 1: were a band. It wasn't just it wasn't just a

1221
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:55,760
Speaker 1: backing group for sting in his songs. Yeah, I think

1222
00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 1: you're exactly right. And for all the frustration with Stings

1223
00:58:58,560 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 1: sort of taking the lion's share of limelight and the

1224
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 1: record real estate, I think that the other guys understood

1225
00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 1: that his songs were objectively better than their's, and the

1226
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: argument seemed more about like how to make those songs

1227
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 1: better and musical minutia rather than you know, why can't

1228
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: we do more of my songs, which, in retrospect I'm

1229
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 1: sort of surprised wasn't a bigger factor, given you know,

1230
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 1: how the band started out as Stuart's enterprise, Like, I

1231
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:24,520
Speaker 1: feel like they were all very open to giving Sting

1232
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 1: his space, and the fights became more about how to

1233
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 1: best serve him and be allowed to sort of add

1234
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 1: input to those. So yeah, I'm impressed by how good

1235
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 1: natured the others were by the sort of abrupt and

1236
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 1: extreme shift in the power dynamics, and Stewart later say,

1237
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 1: you know, there's nothing more natural for me in the

1238
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 1: world than standing next to a brighter source of light.

1239
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:45,120
Speaker 1: I don't mind, it just better be pretty fucking shine.

1240
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 1: I think that's a very that's very generous. So when

1241
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 1: we look at all these guys together, you know, I

1242
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 1: touched on this at the beginning of the episode, but

1243
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 1: just how unusual it was for these three guys to

1244
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:58,280
Speaker 1: form a band, how they were very different people in

1245
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 1: some cases, you know, different generation. On paper, it did

1246
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 1: make sense at all, and yet when you brought them together,

1247
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 1: it created a sound that was incredibly popular. Again, like

1248
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:09,600
Speaker 1: I think the Police, to some degree, they don't get

1249
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 1: there do as much as they deserve nowadays, but like

1250
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 1: if you go on any classic rock radio station, you're

1251
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,360
Speaker 1: gonna hear several Police songs over the course of the day,

1252
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 1: and it just really speaks to the unique chemistry that

1253
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 1: exists in bands that, like people that don't seem like

1254
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 1: they belong together, sometimes you put them in the same

1255
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:31,959
Speaker 1: space and sparks fly everywhere and it creates something really

1256
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: combustible but also appealing and attractive. And to me, that's

1257
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 1: the Police story in the nutshell. Yeah, you know, it's

1258
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 1: a tired trope of the show, but without the differences

1259
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 1: that ultimately drove them apart, we would have never had

1260
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 1: the music that made them great. And there was interviews

1261
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:49,320
Speaker 1: to Copeland gave right after their reunion tour wrapped, and

1262
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 1: he was basically marveling at how different. He and Sting

1263
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 1: are spiritually musically in their approach to making songs and

1264
01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 1: just just miles apart and just fundamentally different people at

1265
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 1: every level. He said that we might as well come

1266
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 1: from different planets where different rules of physics supply, but

1267
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, they can still come

1268
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 1: together and make songs that make people cry, and that's

1269
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 1: something to be celebrated despite their differences. Well, Jordan, this

1270
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 1: is always the hardest part of the episode. You know

1271
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 1: when we have to leave because I can't stand losing

1272
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 1: the Jordan's Stephen. Every little pun you make is magic. Man.

1273
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Speaker 1: I think that is now our time to get out

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Speaker 1: of here. And on that note, so thank you all

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Speaker 1: for listening to this episode of Rivals. We'll be back

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Speaker 1: with more beefs and feeds and long simmering resentments next week.

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Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. The executive

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Speaker 1: producers are Shawn Tyitone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers

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Speaker 1: are Taylor Koin and Tristan McNeil. The producer is Joel

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Speaker 1: hat Stat. I'm Jordan's run Talk, I'm Stephen Hyden. If

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Speaker 1: you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave us

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Speaker 1: a review. For more podcast for My Heart Radio, visit

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Speaker 1: the I Heart Video app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you

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Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows. H