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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Great Polycules of History, the show

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Speaker 1: that's usually cool people who did cool stuff. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Margaret Kiljoy and with me today is this week's guest,

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Speaker 1: Mariam Roacheck. Hello. He faked us out on the Polycule

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Speaker 1: last week, so I know our last episode. Is that

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Speaker 1: called a cliffhanger? Is that a bait and switch? Depends

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Speaker 1: on if you delivered today. We'll see. Yeah, we'll deliver today.

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Speaker 1: Sophie as our producer. Hi, Sophie, how are you? I

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Speaker 1: am wow? How are you good? Do you know the

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Speaker 1: Nick Cave song sixteen feet of Snow or something like that?

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Speaker 1: No should I This is a song where he's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm buried under sixteen feet of pure white snow. It's

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Speaker 1: about cocaine. But since you're currently buried under snow, are

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Speaker 1: you gonna make a joke the sixteen feet of snow

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Speaker 1: that is my backyard? Yeah? Exactly. You two are buried

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Speaker 1: under cocaine, much like Nick Cave. I was gonna say,

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Speaker 1: my dog fucking loves it. But that makes that sounds

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Speaker 1: that sounds bad, especially with that Cocaine Bear movie that's

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Speaker 1: coming out. What there's a movie called Cocaine Bear that's

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Speaker 1: it's actually just straight up called that. Yeah, and it's

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Speaker 1: based on a true star. Oh, it's about someone smuggling

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Speaker 1: or is it about bear that gets into some cocaine?

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Speaker 1: So like a bale of cocaine fell off of an airplane,

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Speaker 1: I guess yeah, and it ended up in the woods,

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Speaker 1: And what really happened is some a bear got into it,

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Speaker 1: and I think die die? Yeah, because sorry, cocaine isn't

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Speaker 1: good for bears, um only people. Yeah, I don't basically

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Speaker 1: don't do drugs. I don't know why I'm pretending like, okay,

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Speaker 1: yeah I was, But then the movie is like, what

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Speaker 1: if instead of dying, the bear became a cocaine fueled

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Speaker 1: bear monster? Just yeah, which is like, well that would

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Speaker 1: have been more interesting in I love living in this world.

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Speaker 1: That makes no sense anymore. I can't wait till the

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Speaker 1: first Ai movie. Okay anyway, Ah, that's what definitely what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about today. So if that first DAI movie

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Speaker 1: came out and we watched it without paying, what would

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Speaker 1: that make us pirates like today's Wow, and by heroes,

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Speaker 1: I mean thank you. You wouldn't download a galleon. No,

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Speaker 1: if movie pirates were serial killers to the same degree

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Speaker 1: as Colden Age Pirates. I don't know the world will

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Speaker 1: be different. That would be the movie. Instead of Cocaine Bear,

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Speaker 1: it would be movie pirates acting like regular pirates. You

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Speaker 1: download a movie and then all of a sudden, you

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Speaker 1: fucking okay anyway you download the movie by showing up

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Speaker 1: outside of her brothers and being like, give me that

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Speaker 1: Batman movie, or I will burn down all of your shit. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I already killed three of your kids. Ian as our

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Speaker 1: audio engineer. Our theme music was written forced by young

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Speaker 1: woman where we last left our serial killers, our heroes,

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Speaker 1: the Golden Age had just kicked off, and the pirates

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Speaker 1: are building themselves a counterculture. Let's talk about that culture

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Speaker 1: and how they worked. They are specifically and consciously Okay, actually,

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Speaker 1: once again everyone's making this up. But there is like

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Speaker 1: some shit like that people sort of know when people

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Speaker 1: are able to kind of like best case. I mean,

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Speaker 1: historians aren't like like pop history writers like me suck

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Speaker 1: and like aren't trustworthy, but historians like try to figure

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Speaker 1: things out. What about that time everybody decided that Daniel

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Speaker 1: Dafoe wrote I keep wanting to say, well, Limb Dafoe,

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Speaker 1: by the way, different guy decided that Daniel Dafoe wrote

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Speaker 1: all the Pirates stories. Yeah it's a good point, Okay,

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Speaker 1: so but theoretically best I'm able to parse together this

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Speaker 1: seemingly near consensus. Actually I would be like the consensus

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Speaker 1: of all the different writers, but they all just completely

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Speaker 1: disagree with each other. They all lived in blood, and

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Speaker 1: then they're like, no, they were like kind of mostly

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Speaker 1: nice and only occasionally killed people. Like it's just fucking

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Speaker 1: I don't fucking know, Okay, So they specifically and consciously

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Speaker 1: we're looking to invert or subvert everything they knew about

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Speaker 1: the cultures they were from that much, I do believe

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Speaker 1: every ship seemed to develop its own social norms, because

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Speaker 1: I mean, these are the fuckers who put the chaotic

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Speaker 1: and chaotic neutral or evil. They had a chaotic culture.

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Speaker 1: When pirates voted, which they did all the time, the

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Speaker 1: losers of an important vote would leave the ship, so

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Speaker 1: that the pirate crew stayed in consensus with itself. But

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Speaker 1: most of the time the losers were like born no

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Speaker 1: bad blood, so they would just be like given one

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Speaker 1: of the ships in the fleet, because like, if you

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Speaker 1: steal ships for a living, you got a lot of ships,

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Speaker 1: and so good at it. Yeah, okay, fair enough, and

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Speaker 1: if you're not, you're dead. So most of the pirates

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Speaker 1: you meet are either untested or good. Well, I've stolen

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Speaker 1: a ship one time and I'm still alive, so you're

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Speaker 1: a fucking good pirate. The losers are born no bad blood,

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Speaker 1: and they often go and start a new venture and

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Speaker 1: so this like and therefore they like bring a ton

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Speaker 1: of the culture with them, so their culture spreads really

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Speaker 1: organically chaotically. It's a sort of a hydra or an amiba.

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Speaker 1: It gets called a hydra, but I think an amibas

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Speaker 1: some more accurate. And the first thing pirate crew will do, yeah,

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Speaker 1: exactly a new pirate crew will do is that whenever

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Speaker 1: they whether they start by mutiny or splitting off from

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Speaker 1: an existing fleet, which also sometimes happens if they take

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Speaker 1: a prize, and they're just like all right, even though

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Speaker 1: they don't have a vote, They're like, fuck it, a

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Speaker 1: bunch of us are going to go start over there.

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Speaker 1: They elect a captain, they drop their articles, the pirate constitution,

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Speaker 1: which is like the list of rules. It also just

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Speaker 1: talks about like how money is going to get split. Usually,

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Speaker 1: like the captain gets about twice as much as everyone else,

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Speaker 1: but only twice as much. And the quartermaster gets like

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Speaker 1: point one point five and the ship's cook gets one

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Speaker 1: point two five and shit, and it talks about what's

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Speaker 1: communal and what isn't, and then they all write down

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Speaker 1: the rules and then they get really fucking drunk and

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Speaker 1: they start shooting cannons off, which sounds fun. Not recommendable,

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Speaker 1: but fun. Yeah, get drunk, play with cannons. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: don't stand downside. I know, I wonder whether there's like

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Speaker 1: like the black powder pistol. I mean, now you probably

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Speaker 1: still shouldn't suck around with them when you're drunk, but

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Speaker 1: it's like, no, definitely don't, but it does seem like

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Speaker 1: harder to anyway. Yes, yes, the gun where you have

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Speaker 1: to pour the gun power into it from like a

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Speaker 1: random bottle while you're drunk, is definitely safer. One for me,

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Speaker 1: one for the gun, the one for me, one for

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Speaker 1: the gun. So they create this culture, and it is

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Speaker 1: a specific counterculture. There's like a couple thousands of pirates

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Speaker 1: and they fucking know each other. Like I one an

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Speaker 1: article I read, I think it was being pretty accurate.

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Speaker 1: It was like, well, there's a click of pirate captains,

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Speaker 1: and that's where the cult, you know, that's what it is,

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Speaker 1: because it's just like twenty to eighty of them, you know,

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Speaker 1: captain like fleets and ships or whatever. At any given time,

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Speaker 1: most pirates drop their Christian names and take on new names.

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Speaker 1: On shore, they wear crazy elaborate rich people clothes because

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Speaker 1: they can, because they stole those clothes from crazy elaborate

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Speaker 1: rich people. From Steven Snelder's book The Devil's Anarchy. At

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Speaker 1: a time when seamen generally wore blue jackets, checkered shirts,

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Speaker 1: long canvas trousers, or baggy breeches, red red waistcoasts where

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Speaker 1: red waist could you try and say it? Red waistcoats,

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Speaker 1: and scarves around their necks, pirates added all kinds of

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Speaker 1: plundered silks, velvets, and brocades to their outfits. They probably

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Speaker 1: didn't do this like on deck all the time. They

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Speaker 1: probably did sometimes no one really knows, but people are

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Speaker 1: kind of like they probably were a little more practical

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Speaker 1: while they're like climbing around rigging and ship you've climbed

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Speaker 1: around rigging, I have. And contemporary tall ships don't use

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Speaker 1: quite as much tar on everything as they did back then.

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Speaker 1: But you get a little bit of pine tar on

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Speaker 1: some of your clothes, you're gonna not want to do

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Speaker 1: that again if you like those clothes. So I had

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Speaker 1: like a cool stolen brocade silk coat, I would probably

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Speaker 1: not wear it while climbing around in the rigging. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's good to know. You're ruining my dreams. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you can do it. You just have to make sure

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Speaker 1: you steal some more cool coats. Yeah, that's true. You

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Speaker 1: probably have your like, well, this is the really expensive

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Speaker 1: one that was going to go to the English King

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Speaker 1: that I wear when I'm in the rigging and it's

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Speaker 1: all fucked up. And this is the other one that

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Speaker 1: was going to go to this English King that I

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Speaker 1: wear on shore. It's all a way to taunt society.

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Speaker 1: It's also probably because they like think it rules. They

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Speaker 1: wore heavy gold jewelry and basically just costume levels of clothing.

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Speaker 1: They mostly wore them around town. There's no specific history

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Speaker 1: of them actually wearing earrings. And then actually I were

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Speaker 1: kind of curious if you know more about this. What

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Speaker 1: I've been able to read is that it pre dates

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Speaker 1: They predate the Western sailor tattoo culture by a fair amount,

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Speaker 1: but they might have had tattoos anyway, based on the

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Speaker 1: idea that European traditional tattooing hadn't actually completely gone out

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Speaker 1: of gone away at this point. And then of course

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Speaker 1: they're heavily influenced by the indigenous people of the Caribbean.

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Speaker 1: What I what I have read, and that this could

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Speaker 1: be wrong, but what I've read suggests that tattooing was

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Speaker 1: pretty widespread among sailors at that time. But we have

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Speaker 1: more record of pirate tattoos because if you were wanted,

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Speaker 1: all of your tattoos got written down. It makes sense, okay.

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Speaker 1: And if you were not, if you were just some guy,

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Speaker 1: nobody was like making note of your tattoo twos because

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Speaker 1: who gives a shit. But if you are somebody who,

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Speaker 1: like the government, would quite like to kill, they are

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Speaker 1: going to have a detailed description of you, which, if

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Speaker 1: you are tattooed, would include your tattoos, because it's all

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Speaker 1: they have, like photographs of you. No, okay, so I'm

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Speaker 1: actually yeah. I read one article that was like Western

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Speaker 1: sailor tattoo culture comes in later in the eighteenth century,

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Speaker 1: like the middle or the end of the eighteenth century.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that because the most trustworthy history we

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Speaker 1: have on the pirates is the criminal records, the court

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Speaker 1: records and all that shit. And so they're naming the tattoos,

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Speaker 1: I'm probably like, I know, we also have an extensive

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Speaker 1: list of every tattoo that the bounty mutineers had. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because like they were in trouble, so somebody took the

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Speaker 1: cho you know when, took the time to like write

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Speaker 1: down all their tattoos. I think the book I read

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Speaker 1: was wrong or or I'm wrong. Now my money is

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Speaker 1: on you being right. I appreciate that, like just talking it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, I mean I just read it

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Speaker 1: like a million different random ass books that all disagree

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Speaker 1: with each other and come up with what makes the

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Speaker 1: most sense. That's how I write these, especially this episode.

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Speaker 1: Just read a million books that disagree with each other

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Speaker 1: and then agree with the ones that agree with me.

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Speaker 1: That's that's that's how you do history. Yeah. While the

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Speaker 1: Royal English Navy was at this point early eighteenth century

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Speaker 1: on an anti buggery campaign, there is no evidence that

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Speaker 1: any single set of Pirate articles banned browing down with

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Speaker 1: the bros. So you know, and of course, you know,

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Speaker 1: as we talked about last time, you can't look back

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Speaker 1: and say like they were gay because the wrong way

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Speaker 1: of looking at it. Pirates were notorious for fucking ladies.

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Speaker 1: They were also notorious for raping captives, and they also

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Speaker 1: almost certainly fucked each other a lot. Whatever doesn't make

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Speaker 1: them straight, doesn't make them gay, make them pirates. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and there does seem to be like, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: there seems to be evidence that the pirates were fine

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Speaker 1: with whatever your preference was. Heterosexually hadn't been invented yet anyway,

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Speaker 1: So and it seems to be telling that like throughout

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Speaker 1: the time, most most buccaneers and pirates, if they retire,

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Speaker 1: which the smart ones do, the ones who lived to

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Speaker 1: be old do. Um, they don't go back to Europe.

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Speaker 1: They join non European cultures because European culture sucks and

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Speaker 1: because well a lot of them are like, um, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, all of the buccaneers and privateers and shit

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Speaker 1: are also included within this like overall, not like retiring

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Speaker 1: back to ye olde England. But yeah, mostly they retire

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Speaker 1: at the bottom of the ocean or the end of

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Speaker 1: a rope. They are very accepting of disability, which makes

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Speaker 1: sense because they fight people with swords for a living.

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Speaker 1: Many pirates did in fact have peg legs. The articles

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Speaker 1: make it clear. The articles, like their constitutions, um make

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Speaker 1: it clear that people who are disabled in the course

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Speaker 1: of their you know, job, would be compensated and would

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Speaker 1: be allowed to stay with the pirates or leave as

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Speaker 1: they wanted. Yeah. I remember seeing articles that list like

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Speaker 1: what amount of money you will get for the destruction

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Speaker 1: of any given limit, Like at the end it includes

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Speaker 1: like ears. Yeah, it real. It goes very very specific there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like the longest part of it, Like the constitution

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Speaker 1: would be like and this is what's going to happen,

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Speaker 1: and then it's like here's the long footnote, the list

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Speaker 1: of Yeah, totally. I saw it referred to as the

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Speaker 1: first Western social security system, and it wasn't a society

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Speaker 1: of one against all. And I think this is the

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Speaker 1: biggest thing that Hollywood pirates are kind of wrong about maybe,

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Speaker 1: is that within the ranks of pirates there's a sort

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Speaker 1: of collectivism and anti authoritarianism and an incredible amount of

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Speaker 1: generosity not universally right, And you absolutely have like captains

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Speaker 1: who will like shoot one of their fucking crew members

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Speaker 1: and just are like what I'm captain often. That same

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Speaker 1: Beard famously once shot his first mate in the knee

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Speaker 1: during a game of cards and then said, well, if

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Speaker 1: I don't shoot someone every once in a while, my

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Speaker 1: crew will forget who I am. Yeah, which is like

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Speaker 1: not a overly collectivist approach to hang out with your buddies.

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Speaker 1: Didn't you get voted out? I can't. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: He got beheaded, that's right. Um, yeah, that's like a

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Speaker 1: version of voted out. No, I'd like, yeah when I

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Speaker 1: whenever I read about not all of them, but like

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Speaker 1: I read about pirate captains who will be like particularly authoritarian,

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Speaker 1: and then the crew will like mutiny instead of like

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Speaker 1: most pirate crews just vote, you know, but if you're

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Speaker 1: an authoritarian one, then they mutiny and then like kill you.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's Blackbeard was not beheaded by

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Speaker 1: his now yeah yeah, yeah, but um, I didn't really.

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Speaker 1: I think he had kind of gone all the way

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Speaker 1: sort of back around sound an authoritarian where it became like, wow,

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Speaker 1: we really actually shouldn't mess with this guy. Yeah, Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's probably effective too, which you know, yeah but anyway, no, yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: hard on his luck. Pirate could be given a whole

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Speaker 1: fucking ship. You could be like hanging out in a

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Speaker 1: pirate port and be like, oh, it was like it sucks.

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Speaker 1: Don't want to be a pirate, but I don't have

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Speaker 1: a ship anymore. I'm like having a rough time. People

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Speaker 1: might be like like, they'll they'll give you the ship

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Speaker 1: off their back. Eh, and uh, now that's something we

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Speaker 1: should bring back to tall ship culture. Give people the

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Speaker 1: ship off your back. Just giving people ships, yeah, totally.

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Speaker 1: I mean, like, if you see a person down in

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Speaker 1: the port who looks bummed out, just be like half ship, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then the person's like thanks, and then the cops

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Speaker 1: come running. You're like, I mean that wasn't mine, but

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Speaker 1: you can have it. I'll cut the rope that attaches

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Speaker 1: it to the shore or whatever. It's yeah, fast up, um.

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Speaker 1: And you're on a tall ship and they have speedboats,

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Speaker 1: you're in trouble. They stood up for each other against

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Speaker 1: their collective enemies aka the entire world. A port that

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Speaker 1: would hang some pirates might get cannonaded and burned to

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Speaker 1: the ground by avenging pirates from a completely different crew.

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Speaker 1: Most stayed sort of Christian, some were Zealots, Protestant mostly,

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Speaker 1: some were kind of this like weirddest thing that they

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Speaker 1: have going on that I didn't really learn as much

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Speaker 1: about as I kind of wanted to. And then others

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Speaker 1: were like blasphemous as hell and basically Satanists just like

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Speaker 1: an intentional inversion of Christian values, or at least we're

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Speaker 1: presenting that as part of our like we're scary demons

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Speaker 1: from hell. Fuck you give us your stuff. And they

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Speaker 1: changed the nature of the like the idea of home

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Speaker 1: to basically be wherever they were, which fucking rules, and

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Speaker 1: it specifically disrupted a lot of nationalist ideas. Not all

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Speaker 1: crews were all mixed different nationalities, but a lot of

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Speaker 1: them were, and they would speak different mixed languages full

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Speaker 1: of cuss words. They really did cuss a lot, apparently. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that is like something that you see people writing about

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Speaker 1: in history, is like how these people swear a lot.

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Speaker 1: But then if you actually like look at what the

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Speaker 1: people how the people were swearing, it looks very tame

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Speaker 1: by today's standards. It's like ninety percent blasphemy. So it's

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Speaker 1: like all these people are like shocked, and then it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: somebody said, god damn, You're like, yeah, it's disappointing, I know,

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Speaker 1: and then like basically called them like dunder heads or something,

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Speaker 1: you know, like their sense of hierarchy and authority did

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Speaker 1: not line up with Western civilizations. Sometimes they are understood

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Speaker 1: as protodemocrats and their captains are generally electable and recallable.

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Speaker 1: Obviously not always as we talked about, but I read

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Speaker 1: and it's convincing that it's better understood anthropologically, something more

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Speaker 1: kin to the way that tons of culture has handled

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Speaker 1: authority before the development of the state, and specifically the

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Speaker 1: carib people, and the ways that anthropologically that makes this

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00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:55,399
Speaker 1: comparison electable and recallable. Their power rested on merit. The

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Speaker 1: power was controlled by the community to various degrees. Their

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Speaker 1: primary task is to keep between the people on the

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Speaker 1: ship and or be involved in like war fighting stuff.

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Speaker 1: The captain takes the largest share of the treasure, but

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Speaker 1: they don't end up enriched by this. They specifically are

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Speaker 1: expected to be the most generous people and if you

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Speaker 1: want to learn like all about this shit, read David

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Speaker 1: Graber's stuff. And the only time their authority is considered

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Speaker 1: absolute and unquestionable like overall, is in combat, and most

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Speaker 1: of the time the captain didn't even get the captain's

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Speaker 1: quarters because they weren't better than everyone else. And the

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Speaker 1: captain's quarters, I think sometimes we're like literally cut off

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Speaker 1: the ship. But I don't know. That didn't quite make

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Speaker 1: sense to me. Don't do that, Yeah, like as somebody

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Speaker 1: who likes ships, don't do that. I think they mostly

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Speaker 1: just use them for other stuff. And there were exceptions

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Speaker 1: to a lot of this. Definitely don't Sorry I call

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Speaker 1: bullshit on that. I don't. I don't believe that the

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Speaker 1: cutting the thing off the ship, yeah, you know that

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Speaker 1: one like structural integrity to worry about. Yeah, but I

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Speaker 1: could see just like turning the what would have been

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Speaker 1: the captain's quarters into like a general party central and like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: letting people sleep elsewhere. I think it was a symbolic

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Speaker 1: language that did not necessarily carry across the centuries that

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Speaker 1: particular piece. And so they're not like a president or

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Speaker 1: even necessarily exactly like a captain of a ship in

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Speaker 1: a Western sense, although they're a way closer to that

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00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,040
Speaker 1: and often are that, but a lot more like the

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Speaker 1: role of chief as is described in a lot of

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Speaker 1: stateless societies, and as likely as an a coincidence, they

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Speaker 1: literally got the word buccaneer from the ship that they

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Speaker 1: learned from the carib people about how to smoke meat

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Speaker 1: and hang out in hammock and use a dugout canoe.

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Speaker 1: And then one thing that history seems to claim back

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Speaker 1: then but is not true, is that they would be

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Speaker 1: like and also the Caribs were cannibals. But I believe

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Speaker 1: that that is not the case. It is not true,

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Speaker 1: I think, I mean, I don't know. There might have

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Speaker 1: been some guy somewhere doing something, but my understanding is

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Speaker 1: that what would happen is like Europeans would show up,

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Speaker 1: you know, heavy quotes, exploring the Caribbean, and they would

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Speaker 1: go to any given island and be like, hey, what's up.

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Speaker 1: We've heard that you guys eat each other over here,

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Speaker 1: and the people would be like, oh, yeah, no, that's

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Speaker 1: the next island over. Yeah, they do that over there.

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Speaker 1: And they would also say the same thing about like hey,

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Speaker 1: where's their gold. They would be like, oh, yeah, it's

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00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,639
Speaker 1: over there, it's on that next island over, Which is

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Speaker 1: how like Columbus ended up like bumbling around from island

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Speaker 1: to island like because everybody would just be like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: all the stuff you're talking about it's definitely over there,

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Speaker 1: and they would head off to the other island where

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Speaker 1: they would be told, oh, yeah, the gold and cannibals,

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Speaker 1: it's definitely the next island over. Yeah, And so they

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Speaker 1: would never run into either of those things because that

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Speaker 1: wasn't really a thing. No, that makes sense, And I

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Speaker 1: mean it's like, I you know, I read a history

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Speaker 1: book that was like, and the pirates got their cannibalism

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Speaker 1: from the Carab people. But the Carab people, I don't

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Speaker 1: believe we're cannibals, and so there's a lot of I

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Speaker 1: guess it's the way of being Like, doesn't mean the

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Speaker 1: pirates didn't get their cannibalism from the fictional idea of

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Speaker 1: the carib people that was in circulation. Oh that's a

376
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 1: really good point. Yeah, totally. So they create this egalitarian

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Speaker 1: murder society and it only extends the bros, white bros

378
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Speaker 1: almost exclusively. Although time for history argument time there were

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00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 1: noted black pirates who were free and equal on their

380
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Speaker 1: ships and were like notorious for never giving up during

381
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Speaker 1: fights because capture might mean return to slavery. There's an

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Speaker 1: argument about overall to what degree African sailors on pirate

383
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 1: ships were in one of three different categories, seen as

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00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 1: equals or you know, pirates right, or whether they're essentially

385
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 1: there is like kind of like hired servants in a

386
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 1: way that indigenous people often works will get to that,

387
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Speaker 1: or as slaves, and my guesses was a mix of three,

388
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Speaker 1: and it was different on different ships because there seemed

389
00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,919
Speaker 1: to be sources sighting dire actually all of these positions

390
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 1: in different places, different times. Edward England was an irishman

391
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Speaker 1: who was one of the only pirates who actually Classic

392
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Speaker 1: Jolly Roger a terrible name for an Irish guy. He

393
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:19,119
Speaker 1: changed his name to England. Why I don't know, because

394
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,440
Speaker 1: he was like one of the most egalitarian pirates, one

395
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,240
Speaker 1: of the only English Irish pirate captains. He changed his

396
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,880
Speaker 1: name to England has probably hated enemy like four times over.

397
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,199
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe he was like everyone's picking a

398
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 1: really like scary name, right, like John Death over there,

399
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:45,159
Speaker 1: I need a fucking scary name the British. It's like

400
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 1: one of those scariest people I know. Yeah, he was

401
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:51,959
Speaker 1: actually one of the only people who flew the classic

402
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 1: Jolly Roger as we know it today. And I just

403
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,640
Speaker 1: think it's cool that one of that that particular flag,

404
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 1: that version of the Jolly Roger, the scollm Bone, was

405
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:05,439
Speaker 1: flown by one of the more directly anti racist as

406
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:12,400
Speaker 1: compared to the incredibly racist pirates which were more common. Absolutely, Yeah,

407
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 1: Indigenous people, particularly the Mosquito people, were on board. Apparently

408
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 1: most ships separate. They weren't. They were basically hired to

409
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 1: be there. I don't know whether it was equal shares.

410
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 1: I straight up don't know, but most ships would have

411
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Speaker 1: folks there who basically were there as like scouts and

412
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 1: then as turtlers, and they would catch turtles and feed

413
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Speaker 1: the crew. We're just going to pretend that they caught

414
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: turtles and would feed the crew, and those are two

415
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,640
Speaker 1: separate things. Yeah, totally, they would catch turtles, hang out

416
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 1: with the turtles because the pirates were sort of boorish company,

417
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:52,880
Speaker 1: and then feed fish. Well, turtles, as we know, eat pizza,

418
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 1: so they probably just the turtles would share their pizza

419
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Speaker 1: with the pirates. That's probably how it went. That is

420
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: actually how all pirates fed themselves traditionally, and is totally

421
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Speaker 1: not put in here by the Turtle Lobby, who is

422
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 1: our primary sponsor, but it does make a lot of

423
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: sense that you that they would want to have like

424
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,400
Speaker 1: people on board who just like knew where the fuck

425
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,439
Speaker 1: they were, because this is also like before you know,

426
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 1: any kind of a lot of like modern navigational equipment

427
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 1: or even like good maps. So if you were sailing somewhere,

428
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: especially somewhere like near land, it would be really good

429
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: to have somebody around who actually like knows the waters

430
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 1: you're in and can like tell you where not to sail. Yeah,

431
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 1: although I do want because I think that's almost certainly

432
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: true for a lot of it while they're in the Caribbean.

433
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: But these are like all they're going all over the

434
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 1: fucking world. Us they were just called guys. Yeah, yeah,

435
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: it's so hard to fucking know how they all related.

436
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:57,239
Speaker 1: But but um, but turtles. Did you know that turtles are?

437
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: I don't know any turtle facts, U, but there are

438
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:08,439
Speaker 1: primary sponsors. So listen to these ads about turtles and

439
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: we are back. So Honestly, the pirates in general just

440
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 1: kind of like messed up boundaries about what it meant

441
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 1: to be free or unfree, and even like the individual pirate,

442
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:24,800
Speaker 1: even the white French pirate guy, like you know, there's

443
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 1: like all of these things about they lived so free,

444
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: they all had voting rights or whatever, right, but like,

445
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: especially by the end, most of the pirates by the

446
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: end are getting their start because pirates attack their ship

447
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: and are like, you're pirates. Now, this is like how

448
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 1: America spreads freedom. Yeah, there's a lot of comparisons. There's

449
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: no one who's such a big part of us myth,

450
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 1: you know, and so like I think it was like, look,

451
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 1: we're taking this ship and we're not going to kill you,

452
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: but you can't go anywhere until we're in the middle

453
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: of the ocean, you know. And so a lot of

454
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,439
Speaker 1: people who like come like some people like sign up

455
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 1: right away and or like sign me the fuck up.

456
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 1: Fuck yeah, fuck these people, and then other people are

457
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: like I don't want to and basically like who hang

458
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: out as prisoners until they get to shore or like

459
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: I'm sure it goes different every fucking time, you know.

460
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: And I think and I actually don't know as much

461
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: about this, but you probably know more about it. It's

462
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: kind of like how sailors were in general at that point, right,

463
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: you have it all these like what's the name for

464
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: the assholes to go around the docks and find drunk

465
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: people and make them be press gangs? Press gangs. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

466
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: I mean you, I mean that would be only like

467
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: you were only going to end up on a navy

468
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 1: ship that way. But like, yeah, people were definitely working

469
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: on ships that they did not wish to be working on. Yeah. Yeah.

470
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: Freedom is not a binary thing, and between slavery and freedom,

471
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: you know, even within like different types of enslavement, there's

472
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 1: a millions of different things. And I don't know whatever

473
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: pirates real omplicated about all this shit. They did, however,

474
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: work as little as possible, which rules Pirate ships were

475
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 1: crammed overflowing with people. Often five times as many people

476
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 1: would be on pirate ships as the equivalent sized merchant ship,

477
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: because when you fight people with swords for a living,

478
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 1: it's nicer when there's more people on your side than

479
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 1: the other side, which meant less ship work for everyone.

480
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: It wasn't a big if you've got time to lean it,

481
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: you've got time to clean culture overall, and they get money,

482
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 1: they'd hit the shore, they'd hang out in party till

483
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: the money was gone. They'd spend it on booze and

484
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 1: gambling and hiring sex workers. Then they go get money again,

485
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: very drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, which

486
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,640
Speaker 1: apparently the life of a regular sailor around this time

487
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: is like roughly as dangerous as the life of a pirate. Yeah,

488
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: because there's all these pirates out there. Okay, fair, No,

489
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: I mean being a sailor it was incredibly dangerous. Yeah,

490
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: so you might as well not do it for government

491
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: or whatever as they put it, but you might as

492
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 1: well do it in a context where you will get

493
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: a lot of money instead of very little money. And yeah,

494
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: to to go get ship faced whenever you feel like it. Yeah,

495
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: And I will argue that the smartest pirates are the

496
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: ones who did not get on the boats and lived

497
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: on shore and sold them things like booze and sex,

498
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: because apparently the average pirate lasted about two years on

499
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 1: sea before dying or retiring. Makes sense. Yeah, But also

500
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: if you retire after two years, you have picked a

501
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: great career. That's also a really good point. And as

502
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: I said before, you know, there's like this thing that

503
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: broke Spanish rule in America and like change the face

504
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: of everything or whatever. It's like four thousand person subculture

505
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: at its like fucking peak. And I think that there's

506
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 1: a really good Margaret Mead quote about pirates. Never doubt

507
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change

508
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.

509
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: I yes, the great topebag quote. Yeah, and that's exactly

510
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 1: what she was talking about. Yeah, exactly. So I'm gonna

511
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: talk about one of my favorites. There's this guy named

512
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: Sam Bellamy, Samuel Bellamy or Black Sam. None of these

513
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: guys are black, literally in England, I think at the time,

514
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: being called black ment you had black hair. It's the best.

515
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: I think that's I think that's right. Yeah, he got

516
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: into piracy because he was trying to support his pregnant girlfriend,

517
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: who later winds up known as the Witch of well Fleet. Okay,

518
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: that's very cool. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

519
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: Goes like I love that. Oh yeah, no, this guy rules,

520
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: and he's like, I mean, I also love that he's

521
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 1: like going off to do piracy to support his pregnant girlfriend. Like, yeah,

522
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: that's a that's the honorable thing to do, right there. Well,

523
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: first he tries to go be a treasure hunter, um,

524
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: to like go find a shipwrecker whatever, and it just

525
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 1: doesn't pay. And so he's like, all right, I'm signing

526
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: it up as a pirate and I got to eliminate

527
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: the middleman when it comes to plundering shipwrecks. Yeah, and

528
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: just like you know, rob bosses instead of being robbed

529
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: by bosses, seemed like a better strategy. Absolutely, So he

530
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: joins up with this guy Hornigold and who black Beard

531
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 1: is serving under it this time when Hornigold he's too

532
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: much of a patriot to attack British ships, so the

533
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: crew is like, sucks, and the crew agrees, so they

534
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: vote him out and they vote in Black Sam, who

535
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: black Beard actually serves under for a little while, I believe,

536
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: and the asshole Hornigold later he gets accepts the King's

537
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: pardon and then he becomes a pirate hunter. Fortunately he

538
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: wrecked himself on some coral and did a dying Black

539
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: Sam's flag. I do know a story that I have

540
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: read about Hornigold, and I don't know if this is true,

541
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: but I like it. I don't know any stories besides

542
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: these for Gold, so it was very horny for gold.

543
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 1: But there's a story that his ship once chased down

544
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: some like random merchant ship, which like immediately was like okay, okay,

545
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: we surrender, Like these guys are very dangerous and then

546
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: a very apologetic Hornigold steps on board and is like, listen,

547
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: we're not really going to rob you that much. I

548
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: just I need all your hats because my crew got

549
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: drunk last night and they threw all the hats overboard,

550
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: and so just like, please give me all your hats

551
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: and I will leave and we will say no more

552
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: about it. And I have no idea if this is true,

553
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: but I love it very much. I mean, there's definitely

554
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: like it seems like it wasn't like, oh, there's pirates.

555
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: They will absolutely attack us. I think it would be

556
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: like sometimes they like hang out with you and party

557
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: and sometimes they murder you, and sometimes they do one

558
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: and then the other, you know, like yeah, sometimes they

559
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: just need your hats. Yeah. So Hornigold the hat pirate

560
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 1: turn pirate hunter. He racks himself, he dies. Black Sam

561
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: is the captain. I don't know the overlap of time here,

562
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: but you know, Black Sam gets elected in as Hornigle's

563
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: voted out. And his flag is the classic Jolly Roger

564
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: the skull and bones. That's two for two for the

565
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: cooler pirates using this flag that I'm aware of so far.

566
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: He saw himself as a Robin Hood quite consciously. His

567
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: crew was not the only crew that called themselves Robin

568
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: Hood's married men. He carried four dueling pistols in his sash.

569
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: He never wore a powdered wig, which is what a

570
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: lot of the pirate captains were doing at that time. Instead,

571
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: he grew his black hair long and tied it back

572
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: back with a black satin bow. He was famous for

573
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: being merciful to those he captured. At one point, they

574
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: capture this ship and he's like, all right, we're just

575
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: gonna take stuff and we'll let the captain keep his ship.

576
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 1: And his crew is like, now we're going to burn

577
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: the fucking ship. And he's like, all right, well, I mean,

578
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not the authoritarian leader here, so I

579
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: guess we're burning in it. And at that point, this point,

580
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: Black Sam gives the ballerus speech in pirate history that

581
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: is probably made up, but it might be within his

582
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 1: character or maybe yet a fucking chronicler, I don't know,

583
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: or maybe like sometimes the line between fiction and fact

584
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: is a little hazy, and it doesn't super matter if

585
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: he really said it, because we know that people believed

586
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 1: he said it. Yep, yeah, Okay, here's the quote, though

587
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: you are a sneaking puppy, and so are all those

588
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: who submit to be governed by laws which rich men

589
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: have made for their own security. For the cowardly whelps

590
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: have not the courage otherwise to defend what they get

591
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: by knavery. But damn ye altogether, damn them for a

592
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: pack of crafty rascals, and you, who serve them, for

593
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: a parcel of henhearted numbskulls. They vilify us, the scoundrels do,

594
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 1: when there is only this difference. They rob the poor

595
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: under the cover of law forsooth, and we plunder the

596
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: rich under the tection of our own courage. But there

597
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: is no arguing that such sniveling puppies who allow superiors

598
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: to kick them around around deck at pleasure henhearted numbskulls. Yeah,

599
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: that fucking rules. Yeah, it's such. It's I love the

600
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:26,439
Speaker 1: balance of like sneaking puppy, henhearted numbskulls, and they rob

601
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 1: the poor under the cover of law, and we plunder

602
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: the rich under the protection of our own courage. Yeah.

603
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: There's like some absolutely amazing lines in there, and then

604
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: some yes stuff that sounds like what a grandmother says

605
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: to avoid swearing. I know, but this is the grandma

606
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: that has just captured your ship and is about to

607
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: set it on fire with you on it. Yeah, because

608
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:56,320
Speaker 1: I'm a sneaking puppy. Yeah. And so he was incredibly successful.

609
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 1: Him and his crew did really well. So he turned

610
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 1: around and headed back home to New England to the

611
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,359
Speaker 1: aforementioned pregnant girlfriend, presumably at this point now a mother,

612
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: the Witch of Wealth Fleet. But in seventeen seventeen, just

613
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: as he's about to make it home, his ship was

614
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: caught in a storm and sank. Many of the men drowned,

615
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: many were captured and hanged, but Black Sam's body was

616
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: never found. This isn't this isn't like, this is actual

617
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: this part um. Black Sam's body was never found. There

618
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: was a body that people assumed for hundreds of years

619
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: was him, but they DNA tested him again it against

620
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: this his descendants, and it wasn't him. I Like, So

621
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: what you're saying is he could still be out there

622
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: with his witch that Yeah, I'm going with that vision exactly.

623
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: He's just like in the woods witch like thriving. I know,

624
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: that's that's that's cool. I'm down. I know. The sad

625
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: part is The reason she's called the Witch of wealth

626
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: Leet is because she was pregnant and wasn't married. They

627
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 1: chased her out of town into the world. Actually, you

628
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 1: don't actually have to be a witch to be pregnant

629
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 1: and not married. You don't need to know any magic atvolved. Really,

630
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: you can get pregnant entirely naturally. I've tried and it's

631
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 1: not working. I mean, being a witch wouldn't hurt in

632
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 1: some situations. Wait, Margaret, you're not a witch. No, I said,

633
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get pregnant and it's not I thought

634
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: I thought you were sick markets not a witch. And

635
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: I was like, wait a time. You might need to

636
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 1: witch harder in this particular situation. But there are witches involved.

637
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: In mind. This is enough me talking about sex, all right,

638
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 1: So as I literally blush, let's talk about pirates and

639
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: slavery again. Oh we were just giggling. I know the

640
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 1: pirates they fucked up the slave trade, but not in

641
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: a good way. In a lateral way. They entirely disrupt

642
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 1: the slave trade. Everyone involved in the slave trade is

643
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: fucked over by the pirates, including the African people. Sometimes

644
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: they treat the African people the way they treat the

645
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: European people that they capture or they forced summon to

646
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 1: be in pirates, they kill others, they set some free,

647
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,760
Speaker 1: but also other times they treat African people as cargo.

648
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:25,240
Speaker 1: To quote Gabriel kun. The threat that Golden Age pirates

649
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: posed the slave trade, however, did not come from the

650
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: pirate's struggle for equal rights or an early abolitionist conviction,

651
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: but from interrupting its routes, stealing its quote cargo, and

652
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: making its ventures more costly. In fact, it was not

653
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 1: even a threat that affected the slave trade per se.

654
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 1: It only affected the government sponsored and protected slave trade,

655
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: trying to protect its monopoly. And further, he says, Gabriel

656
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 1: Kuhn says, whenever their exact role, the buccaneers and pirates

657
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: were overwhelmingly of European origin, and along with their and

658
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: along with their fellow European settlers, took possession of lands

659
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 1: and resources that they stole from other people. A history

660
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 1: of genocide still haunts the Caribbean, and so does the

661
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: buccaneers and pirates part in it. And so I think

662
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: that's just like a that's like worth fucking knowing, you know. Yeah,

663
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: I think part of The reason that I have gotten

664
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,320
Speaker 1: like burned out on talking about pirates in the past

665
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 1: is that a lot of people who are less interested

666
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: in nuanced than you have like tried to come at

667
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: me with this very idealized vision of like leftist pirates

668
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 1: who were attacking slave ships for the purposes of freeing captives.

669
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: And like, yeah, like you said, that happens sometimes also

670
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: other things happened, And like the idea that pirates were

671
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 1: the sort of unified abolitionist force is just like wildly

672
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: a historical and like and sort of you know, that's

673
00:38:53,120 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 1: an that's not a a neutral myth to perpetuate, totally totally,

674
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 1: It just and like, and the abolitionist pirate who's quoted

675
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: and muddies at all is Captain Mission, who's entirely fictional. Yeah,

676
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,879
Speaker 1: that guy is not real. He is not real. That's

677
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: cool that he was an abolitionist, but he didn't exist, ye,

678
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: which is not a point in his favor. No, Um,

679
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: there's some cool people who didn't exist. Yeah overall Robin Hood, Yeah, totally. Uh.

680
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: But let's talk about the end of the era. We

681
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: will get to the Polychuel. I really were just holding

682
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: it out till the end piracy takes a little break,

683
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 1: a little a little nap at the turn of the

684
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: eighteenth century, because there's speaking of taking a little break.

685
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: Oh oh, did piracy need to hear from its sponsors?

686
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: I believe piracy need to dear from its sponsors. And

687
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: I'm really hoping it's the gold or gambling. What I

688
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: actually hope it's gold because I think gambling and the

689
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 1: sports gambling is it? Well, okay, the idea of sitting

690
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: around with your friends and gambling because it's fun and

691
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 1: no one's specifically there to take a cut. Whatever. I

692
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: don't give a shit. It's like a bad idea. It's

693
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: a problem for some people. Other people have fun with it.

694
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 1: The idea of a fucking group that just basically like

695
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: takes money from people who need the concept of a

696
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 1: big reward because their life is hard. It's not my

697
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 1: favorite thing. Here's some ads, hopefully not randomly for gambling.

698
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, go ahead. Oh do you want to hear

699
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 1: a gambling story from one of the ships that I

700
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: worked on? Yes, I was working on a ship and

701
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: we were like hitting a patch of like really bad

702
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: weather and we didn't have to be anywhere for a while,

703
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 1: so we were just kind of waiting it out. But

704
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,720
Speaker 1: we were waiting it out, you know, in the water,

705
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: like we were not at a port. So we were

706
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: bored out of our minds. And this was like at

707
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: the time when like poker was on television a lot,

708
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 1: and that was like a very big new thing. So

709
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 1: we were all like, we're gonna play poker. We're gonna

710
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: we're gonna play some cards. So we like found some cars.

711
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: We had to like cobble together three decks to get

712
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,760
Speaker 1: like the actual proper fifty two cards that are supposed

713
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: to be in there, which makes gambling with poker there

714
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 1: are three different decks anyway, you know. Then we like

715
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: found objects to use as chips, and then we like

716
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: all sat down around a table. There were like four

717
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:33,879
Speaker 1: of us, and we're like, all right, yeah, so it's

718
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: gonna be aces wild Texas. Hold them. Like we just

719
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: started saying all these poker words and we shuffled the

720
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 1: deck and then like we all looked around and waited,

721
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: and finally somebody said, anybody here know how to play poker?

722
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 1: Y'all bad pirates? We played good fish hell yeah, okay,

723
00:41:54,880 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 1: take it back, all right, here's some ads and we

724
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: are back much like piracy is back from its little

725
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: nap that it takes at the turn of the eighteenth century,

726
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: because there's this big fuck off war called the War

727
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: of Spanish Secession from seventeen o one to seventeen fourteen,

728
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: and a whole bunch of pirates are like, yeah, the

729
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 1: whole war against all nations thing like freedom, independence forever

730
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: or whatever, Like give me the fucking letter of Mark.

731
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: I want my like king's permission again. Yeah, you would

732
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: at least like to take one country off the list

733
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 1: of countries trying to kill you. Yeah, that's true. I

734
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: remember I'm playing risk or whatever. Yeah. So for a

735
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: little while they're like, you know, soldiers and privateers and shit.

736
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: But then seventeen fourteen peace breaks out and suddenly they're

737
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: all outlaws again, and this time there's even more of

738
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: them because a bunch of them were soldiers and now

739
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 1: they're not well. And a thing that happens every time

740
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: like peace breaks out in that era is that not

741
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 1: just people who had been privateers, but people who had

742
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 1: been regular as sailors in the navy suddenly don't have

743
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 1: a job too, and like they have a single marketable

744
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: skill and he is doing violence on ships yeah, totally,

745
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 1: which is very marketable at the time. It's the right

746
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 1: time and place to be good at sword and gun

747
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: and ship. Yeah, are you good at violence? Do you

748
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 1: not get motion sickness? Here you go? Yeah, not particularly

749
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: interested in living a long time. Well, so they're all

750
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: outlaws again, and this time there's more of them. They're

751
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 1: scouring the whole ass ocean looking for people to rob

752
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 1: their rating off the west coast of Africa. They've got

753
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 1: a little shitty spot as colonial as fuck on Madagascar,

754
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: part of the whole thing. We were talking about this

755
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 1: off Mike a little bit earlier about how like people are, like, oh,

756
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,720
Speaker 1: they had this pirate utopia on Madagascar that was also

757
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 1: a lie from Captain Mission. Absolutely did not have that. Yeah,

758
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:59,760
Speaker 1: they had a colony on Madagascar where they kept enslaved

759
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: people until I think the native people basically just fucking

760
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,839
Speaker 1: killed them all and drove them all off, which rules. Yeah,

761
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: that's great. Actually the actual cool people like um. But

762
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,439
Speaker 1: they're at war with every nation on Earth, and much

763
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 1: like every other time, going to war against all nations

764
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 1: on Earth usually goes badly. The state wanted them gone

765
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 1: ideally dead. There are pardons offered executions are offered. Expediated

766
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 1: justice is offered. Aka, we catch you, We're gonna fucking

767
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: hang you there. We don't need to send you back

768
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: to England to do it, or France or whatever. They

769
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: send an infiltrators to join pirate cruise to snitch them out.

770
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: It's oh no, yeah, wait that is. It is baffling

771
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: to me that we don't have movies about that. Yeah,

772
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 1: the information I have about that is one of the

773
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 1: man I can't remember as Mary Reader and Bonnie right

774
00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: now at the top of my head. One of them

775
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 1: dated so Joman for a while. They have sellouts who

776
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: get caught and snitch. It's like the destruction of every

777
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 1: social movement I've ever covered. There's a divide and conquer

778
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: pardons for some, bullets for others well, and rope and

779
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: cannons and all kinds of stuff. By seventeen twenty two,

780
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: the most powerful pirates are dead or retired. And this

781
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:23,919
Speaker 1: is the year that Captain black Bart Bartholomy Roberts is killed.

782
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: He's considered the most successful pirate of all time. Let's

783
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 1: really quickly talk about him, because he's fucking weird. He was, yeah,

784
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 1: the one who hated fun. Yeah. I almost called him

785
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 1: to kill Joy in the script, and then I was like,

786
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: I will not do that to my good family name,

787
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,839
Speaker 1: even though that is the definition. Okay. So he died

788
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 1: at forty after four years of piracy, having captured more

789
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: than four hundred ships, which is some fucking impressive math.

790
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 1: That's one hundred ships a year. Yep. Before he was

791
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,399
Speaker 1: a pirate, he was a Welsh slaver. They don't refer

792
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 1: to him as a slaver there, like he was a quartermaster.

793
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: He was a second mate on a slave ship. The

794
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 1: word for that job as slaver. Like how like how

795
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 1: Thomas Jefferson was a gentleman farmer or whenever? Yeah, totally. Yeah.

796
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: So he was a Welsh slaver whose ship was taken

797
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 1: by pirates. So he becomes a pirate and soon gets

798
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 1: elected captain. He's a quote about like, well I better

799
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 1: be a if I'm going to be a pirate, that

800
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: I must be a captain because he's a fucking aristocratic

801
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 1: suck or whatever. It wasn't a sky, I know, And

802
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: I don't think he even was an aristocrat because he

803
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: was just like a fucking but whatever. Fuck him. He

804
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 1: kept the captain's quarters. He made people serve him tea

805
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: because he didn't drink, but he also made people serve him.

806
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,880
Speaker 1: He was a zealous Protestant, so no gambling was allowed

807
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 1: on the ship. He made a rule that it was

808
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: a death penalty to bring a woman on board disguised

809
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: as a man. We'll talk more about that later. Yeah,

810
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 1: my eyebrows just did like eight things. Uh huh, But

811
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: that would be a great ship to have, no idea

812
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 1: how to play poker on. He hated the Irish because

813
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 1: they were papists. Papists, I think it's papists, But like,

814
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: what do I know? You're the Catholic here, I know,

815
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 1: but what do I know about it? I'd like hold

816
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 1: up during the pandemic in a cabin in the forest

817
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 1: and suddenly cared about the religion of my ancestors. Um,

818
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 1: I don't fucking know anything about it, just learning about

819
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:27,520
Speaker 1: it now, and it's all from books. So sometimes he

820
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: captured slave ships and set the captives free and they

821
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: joined his crew. About a quarter of his crew as

822
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: African at the time. It was capture and death as

823
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: eighty five, I believe black pirates on board. Another time, well,

824
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 1: that is a lot of people so eighty five was

825
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: a quarter of the people on the ship. Oh yeah, No,

826
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: pirate ships were rolling around with like four hundred fucking

827
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,399
Speaker 1: people on a galleon. It was literally five times what

828
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 1: was necessary what a merchant or I think even what

829
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 1: a lot more than five times? Yes, no, they would

830
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 1: like that's like fifty times they rolled fucking deep. Another time,

831
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: he captured a slave ship and he set it on

832
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,720
Speaker 1: fire with all of the human cargo on board because

833
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: he did not care. Jesus fucking Christ. Yeah, um would

834
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 1: not have approved. Okay, and um, anyway, he's dead, he

835
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 1: dies in battle. He's thrown overboard fully dressed, which was

836
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 1: his like thing that he always insisted that he immediately

837
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: be thrown overboard fully dressed, leading to the suspicion that

838
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 1: he immediately raises a suspicion in my mind. Yeah, he

839
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 1: also never grew a beard, mum, and he had the

840
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 1: whole thing about like better not let any women come on,

841
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:46,479
Speaker 1: Like I don't know, mmm, I like, for a little while,

842
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: I used to always be like, whoa the most successful

843
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: pirate is probably secretly a woman, And I'm like, this

844
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,840
Speaker 1: guy sucks fuck him. Yeah, that's what I was thinking,

845
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 1: Like yeah, yeah, no. His death marks the end of

846
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 1: the end of the Platinum era of piracy. I think

847
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: we agreed on the Pieces of eight, right, the Pieces

848
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: of eight era of piracy, especially because it was eight

849
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: years long. Well done. For four more years the pirates

850
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: are They're not fighting for plunder, They're fighting for survival.

851
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 1: They get more and more ruthless, They lash out like

852
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 1: a dying beast. Their ranks are no longer filled with

853
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 1: former privateers, but increasingly it's captured merchants who are forced

854
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:30,800
Speaker 1: into it. You get the most, the most murdery, tortury,

855
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: bad pirates. Basically, I do have one question about the

856
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,359
Speaker 1: This is a question I've always had about this, and

857
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 1: you may you may have some insight into it, the

858
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 1: whole idea of people being forced to be pirates when

859
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:47,440
Speaker 1: their ship is captured. It occurs to me that, on

860
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,080
Speaker 1: the one hand, if you are a pirate ship, you

861
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 1: probably don't want people around who hate you and are

862
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 1: not committed to, you know, not stabbing you in the back, right,

863
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: And if you are a pirate who is arrested for piracy,

864
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 1: it makes a lot of sense to say, oh, I

865
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:08,280
Speaker 1: was forced into piracy. Yeah, my bad. So I'm curious

866
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: if we have any reason to think that that is

867
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 1: like largely true or not true, because like I can

868
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 1: I can see why that might enter the you know,

869
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 1: why why people might say that, more than I can

870
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,240
Speaker 1: see why people might actually do that. No, that actually

871
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense. You get a lot of

872
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: like pirates who take the king's pardon and then go

873
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: back to piracy. You also get a lot of pirates

874
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 1: who like get put on trial and are like, oh, no,

875
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: I swear that guy who's gonna kill me if I

876
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 1: didn't do it. I was just a captured sailor And

877
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 1: they're like, oh okay, and then they let them go,

878
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:46,439
Speaker 1: and then they're like sick and they steal the next

879
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: boat out of town. So yeah, no, I I don't know.

880
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: Someone knows a little bit more about what indentured piracy

881
00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: looks like. M But that's a really good point. Edward

882
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: Lowe is a particular terror who tortured people and beheaded

883
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 1: people and shit. But in seventeen twenty three or twenty

884
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 1: four he was probably mutinied by his crew for being

885
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: a piece of shit, and he was left adrift, picked

886
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 1: up and hanged. By seventeen twenty six, there's only about

887
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 1: two hundred or so pirates left, and by seventeen thirty

888
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 1: the last Golden Age pirate, a French Olivier Lebouse. I

889
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 1: don't know. He was hanged on the beach. His tombstone

890
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 1: is still visited by admirers almost every night to this day.

891
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 1: And what about women, What about those women pirates? You

892
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 1: promised me a polycuel That's like, okay, that is what

893
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 1: I was thinking. Yeah, if I were an actual historian

894
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 1: instead of a read pop history books and craft together

895
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 1: the most accurate narrative I can, girl, i'd research more

896
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 1: about the women who worked on the shore and see

897
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: if there's a story about women and power there. But

898
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 1: I don't know that story. The story I know is

899
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 1: about the two women who were known to be pirates

900
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 1: during this time, Mary Reid and Bonnie. The fact that

901
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 1: both of them were on the same boat at the

902
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 1: same time really implies that it's quite possible there were

903
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,280
Speaker 1: a lot more women on a lot of other boats besides.

904
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 1: And also they were on this like part of this

905
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 1: tiny fucking crew. I think it was like fifteen people

906
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 1: on the fucking Someone knows the number, and I don't

907
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 1: because I didn't write it in the scriptum, you look

908
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:27,800
Speaker 1: like you're about to No, I mean, I just I

909
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: let's let's talk about these two first. But then I

910
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: would love to talk more about people assigned female at

911
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 1: birth ending up on ships. Yeah, representing various different genders. Okay,

912
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 1: well I'll give you a cue. That was a thing. Yeah, okay,

913
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:50,399
Speaker 1: because it's like the fact that they're on the boat

914
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,720
Speaker 1: at the same time that said. Okay. The counter argument

915
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 1: is that a lot of pirates get murdered by the state,

916
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: and being murdered by the state is a fair effective

917
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 1: means to determine what your body looks like. But we

918
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:08,080
Speaker 1: also know that that fun hating black bart specifically made

919
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 1: a rule no bringing women disguised as men. There weren't

920
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 1: a lot of rules on pirate ships. That is an

921
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 1: oddly specific rule to include. It's like a I don't know,

922
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: no sneaking up behind me and clapping really loud, but

923
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 1: while I'm while I'm loading my gun, like it's like,

924
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: clearly that happened, and so yeah, that is a I

925
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,760
Speaker 1: am you have given a talk about this very subject,

926
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 1: and I am curious. Yeah, I did a I was

927
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:43,799
Speaker 1: on a panel on queer sailors while back for a

928
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 1: museum here in New York City. We can include the

929
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: link to that talk in the show notes. I think

930
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 1: we have that technology, but it wasn't specifically about pirates,

931
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 1: but I think we can assume that, like some of

932
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 1: the things that were true of sailors true of pirates,

933
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,200
Speaker 1: and one of the things that was like true of

934
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,359
Speaker 1: sailors and ships in the in the age of sail

935
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 1: is that there were a lot more afab people on

936
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: board than people typically think. And like part of that

937
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 1: was any time a ship was in port, there were

938
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 1: women coming aboard. Sometimes they were sex workers, sometimes they

939
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:28,479
Speaker 1: were girlfriends or wives or family. Usually they would leave

940
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 1: when the ship left port, but not always. Often they

941
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:37,719
Speaker 1: were supposed to leave but wouldn't. And there's like definitely

942
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 1: records of that being like an issue of that being

943
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,239
Speaker 1: sort of an accepted like thing that people turned to

944
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 1: blind eye too, because there was a lot of domestic

945
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 1: labor that they, like captains were kind of okay with

946
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 1: having somebody around to do someone's going to wash the

947
00:54:55,280 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 1: blood pants exactly. But there was a also a this

948
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 1: is sort of a half baked idea that I've come

949
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:11,240
Speaker 1: up with your your previous guest, Hugh Ryan probably would

950
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 1: like have a lot to say about this half baked

951
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 1: idea that I have, But basically my ideas, you know,

952
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 1: insofar as sex and gender are social constructs that have

953
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 1: and continue to evolve over time and in different cultures.

954
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 1: In the like seventeenth eighteenth nineteenth century, in the you know,

955
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 1: European countries that were participating in in this like age

956
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,880
Speaker 1: of sail that we're talking about, there was a gender

957
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: called sailor where somebody who was a sailor had a

958
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 1: particular like form of accepted gender and sexual expression that

959
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 1: overlapped with, but was not analogous to the gender of

960
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 1: like man and boy, and could often and was a

961
00:56:03,719 --> 00:56:06,640
Speaker 1: was a form of gender identity that was like much

962
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 1: more fluid in terms of sexuality, where Like, if you

963
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 1: were a you know, man on land, it might be

964
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:16,479
Speaker 1: very expected that you would, for example, not have sex

965
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 1: with other men, and that expectation didn't necessarily carry over

966
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 1: to sailors, yeah, who were much more likely to be

967
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 1: openly having sex with other men. But it also included

968
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 1: people who were assigned female at birth, and the fact

969
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 1: that they were taking on the role of sailor could

970
00:56:35,560 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 1: like help them to get away with that in a

971
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 1: way they would not have been able to get away

972
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:45,359
Speaker 1: with it on land. And part of how we know

973
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 1: that this happened is we have like specific records of

974
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: people that were Usually what would happen is somebody would

975
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 1: like get a really dire injury, and they would often

976
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 1: be somebody who had a reputation for being like this

977
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 1: really tough guy who like, oh, yeah, did you hear

978
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:01,359
Speaker 1: he like got shot in the leg that one time,

979
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:03,399
Speaker 1: and he like treated it himself, wouldn't let the doctor

980
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 1: nare in, you know, and then at some point he

981
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,800
Speaker 1: would be really sick or really injured and a doctor

982
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 1: would examine him and be like, oh, and when this happened,

983
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 1: it often happened in the navy, So they would find

984
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 1: somebody in the you know, in the British Navy who

985
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 1: had been serving for years and had a really great

986
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,919
Speaker 1: reputation and then like, oh, whoops, turns out turns out

987
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 1: this person was assigned female at birth. What they would

988
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 1: have said at the time was this was a woman

989
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 1: disguised as a man, and then they would be like, well,

990
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 1: this person can't be in the navy anymore. But also

991
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 1: they kind of rule so we like definitely have a

992
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 1: few records of the captain basically saying like, well, shit,

993
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 1: here's a pension out of my own pocket. You did great,

994
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,680
Speaker 1: it's been great having you here. We're going to put

995
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 1: you ashore now. And then the person would go ashore

996
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 1: and he would like, I'm gonna say he becaus like Frankly,

997
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: historians are very open about needing very little little evidence

998
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 1: to assume that somebody is SIS, So I'm going to

999
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 1: accept very little evidence. Um, actually, it feels like a

1000
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 1: lot of evidence to assume somebody has trans as a

1001
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 1: man exactly. Yeah, I think we'll take that as a sign.

1002
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: But he would like go back to land and write

1003
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 1: a book about like the time I ran away to

1004
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 1: See and people would love it and they'd be like, oh,

1005
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: that was so cool, Like tell us again about the

1006
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: time you ran away to see. And part of the

1007
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: narrative was almost always well, I ran away to see

1008
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:40,440
Speaker 1: to chase my boyfriend, who is real. He goes to

1009
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 1: another school, he's from Canada, And that part of the

1010
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 1: story never holds up because they're always like, oh, I

1011
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 1: joined the Navy to find my boyfriend, and it's like, oh,

1012
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 1: the Navy, the one that has thousands of ships and

1013
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 1: you have no control over which one you'll be assigned to. Yeah,

1014
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 1: you know, you would have much better like finding him

1015
00:58:57,760 --> 00:58:59,440
Speaker 1: if you just like hung around on land in the

1016
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:03,080
Speaker 1: last place he saw you. Yeah right. And also the

1017
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 1: other thing casting suspicion on the I went following my

1018
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 1: boyfriend thing is that like often these people had like

1019
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 1: a strong reputation for being womanizers and patronizing sex workers. Yeah,

1020
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 1: one of them that we have a really good record of,

1021
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 1: which means the sex workers are good to keeping a secret,

1022
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:26,240
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, for sure. Or also sometimes these people married

1023
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 1: and their wives had no idea either, because like sexual

1024
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 1: marriage is an awkward thing sometimes, yeah, exactly. But one

1025
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 1: one of them that we have a really good record of,

1026
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:41,640
Speaker 1: he was injured at sea and then like retired on

1027
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 1: land and got a job in a shipyard, like working

1028
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 1: with a bunch of other people who are like probably

1029
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 1: mostly sailors who had gotten injured and retired on land.

1030
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 1: And at a certain point, if I'm remembering right, it

1031
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 1: was because like somebody that he had dated or who

1032
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 1: had wanted to date him was mad at him, circulated

1033
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 1: a rumor that he was a woman, and he gets

1034
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 1: confronted by like the guys at the shipyard and they're like,

1035
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 1: is this true? And he according to his account, this

1036
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 1: is like what he wrote down. He like, He's like, well,

1037
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 1: this is it, and he confesses everything to them and

1038
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 1: tells them his whole story and they go, yeah, I

1039
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:19,720
Speaker 1: knew you couldn't be a woman. I told all the

1040
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 1: guys he wouldn't be such a ladies man if he

1041
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:24,480
Speaker 1: were secretly a woman. Will tell them all you're a

1042
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:28,280
Speaker 1: real dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, and just like goes

1043
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 1: back to work. Yeah. So there really did seem to

1044
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 1: be something at the time where the way that people

1045
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 1: were men at sea allowed for more fluidity in terms

1046
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:43,960
Speaker 1: of both sexual expression and in terms of like what

1047
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:46,240
Speaker 1: you're assigned sex at birth might or might not have been.

1048
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 1: I think that makes a lot of sense. I want

1049
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 1: to posit the possibility that pirate culture, and it's like

1050
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 1: part of its conscious inversion of Western civilization, which it

1051
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 1: it did a lot of different things with might have

1052
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 1: had to women dressed as men but not passing and

1053
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:15,919
Speaker 1: not be expected to pass. And I'll make that case

1054
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: with Mary Ren and Bonnie in a second. Yeah. Well,

1055
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 1: and and this goes to part part of what I

1056
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 1: think drove the gender of sailor to be different from

1057
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 1: the gender of man. Again, this is just like a

1058
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 1: thing I made up, and I don't know if anybody

1059
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 1: would anybody who knows things about gender theory and history

1060
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 1: would agree with me. But like, is that often sailors

1061
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 1: were really young, So like you might not have a beard, right,

1062
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 1: and people might not give a shit, right, because that's

1063
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,439
Speaker 1: not part of what they're like thinking is when they're

1064
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:49,840
Speaker 1: looking at you and deciding, like, is that a real sailor?

1065
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 1: Because is that somebody who belongs here? I wonder whether, um,

1066
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 1: the average age of a Golden Age pirate is twenty seven,

1067
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 1: off the top of my head, which I'm guessing is

1068
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 1: older than the average age of the average navy sailor

1069
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 1: in the same era. There would be older sailors on ships,

1070
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: but there would also be like ridiculously young people on ships. Yeah, right,

1071
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 1: so like people who were like children by any standards, right, yeah,

1072
01:02:19,760 --> 01:02:22,280
Speaker 1: but they would be participating fully in a lot of

1073
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:24,800
Speaker 1: like the stuff that was happening on the ship. So like,

1074
01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 1: if you're like looking around at a crew thinking like, well,

1075
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 1: is there anybody here who doesn't belong A face without

1076
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:33,840
Speaker 1: a beard on it is not going to stand out. No,

1077
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 1: but that's not the Oh let me let me tell

1078
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:39,600
Speaker 1: you about this story and Bonnie Mary that you've heard

1079
01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 1: a million times, but let me let me get your

1080
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 1: take up. But I feel like you're going to tell

1081
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:48,360
Speaker 1: it better more than almost anything else in the Book

1082
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:53,080
Speaker 1: of Pirates. Their lives are likely embellished earlier editions wink wink,

1083
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 1: nudge nudge that they were fucking each other later editions

1084
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 1: or like, yeah, they're totally fucking The first edition had

1085
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:03,200
Speaker 1: engravings of them in men's clothing. Later editions had them

1086
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 1: vests and coast coats open to their bellies like somewhere

1087
01:03:07,360 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 1: between like tits out and just lots of cleavage, both

1088
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 1: pieces of art rule. Don't get me wrong. The author

1089
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:16,160
Speaker 1: goes at great length to be like, oh, and the

1090
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 1: story about these two totally not made up. I know

1091
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:23,400
Speaker 1: this one. It sounds crazy, but it's totally true. Why

1092
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 1: do I know more than anyone else was able to

1093
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 1: get from court records about these two people Because I'm

1094
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 1: good at my job and ask the right questions and

1095
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:36,520
Speaker 1: so definitely didn't just make it up. Yeah, this author

1096
01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:42,120
Speaker 1: anonymous author doth protest too much or ah, wait, what

1097
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 1: if I can't remember which one survives the story? What

1098
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:48,360
Speaker 1: if she wrote the book about pirates. I assume that

1099
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:51,400
Speaker 1: both their backstories are made up. There's an emphasis in

1100
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:53,840
Speaker 1: both stories about them being from broken homes, about having

1101
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 1: their parents dressed them up as boys in order to

1102
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:58,920
Speaker 1: get around infidelity, claims, shit like that. That was another

1103
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 1: excuse that people often cooked up in there, like why

1104
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:04,440
Speaker 1: I had to run away to see as a man? Yeah, like,

1105
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:07,440
Speaker 1: oh well I was my mom dressed me as a

1106
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:11,200
Speaker 1: boy because of reasons. Yeah, anyway, I've been dressed as

1107
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 1: a boy ever since. Yeah, definitely not a man, you know, Yeah,

1108
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:19,600
Speaker 1: definitely not just like an eighteenth century trans dude. Yeah,

1109
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 1: but there's there's arguments about how they presented on board,

1110
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 1: and everyone is really certain of their arguments. Some folks

1111
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 1: claim they passed as men, others claim that they lived

1112
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:31,280
Speaker 1: openly as women, and others as um And this is

1113
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 1: this is actually what I believe based I could be wrong,

1114
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:38,440
Speaker 1: but based on other history, like Isabel Everhart see the

1115
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 1: episode on her and just centuries later a different culture,

1116
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:45,200
Speaker 1: but she's like presenting as a man and not passing,

1117
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:47,520
Speaker 1: and no one thinks she's passing and no one cares

1118
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 1: because she's presenting as a man and they're accepting her

1119
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 1: as a man. I believe as possible they were accepted

1120
01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:55,520
Speaker 1: as men despite not fooling anyone. One survivor of their

1121
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:58,520
Speaker 1: attacks verifies this last theory from my point of view

1122
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 1: by basically being like, yeah, they were addressed as men,

1123
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 1: but they had like huge tits. You could totally tell

1124
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:08,720
Speaker 1: they were women. And that wasn't from the Book of Lies.

1125
01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 1: That was a survivor's account of an attack. Yeah, and

1126
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:16,800
Speaker 1: so like, because the other stuff will be a little

1127
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:19,120
Speaker 1: bit like a lot of the history is like they

1128
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:23,400
Speaker 1: totally went into battle with their tits out to scare dudes,

1129
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:29,440
Speaker 1: which nothing scarier than tits. I know, I mean to

1130
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 1: some people, but I you know, whatever, if they did,

1131
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 1: more fucking power to them. But there's definitely a story

1132
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:39,400
Speaker 1: that I've read about one of them that like she

1133
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:42,720
Speaker 1: would fight men and then just as she killed them,

1134
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:44,840
Speaker 1: she would flash her tits at them so that they

1135
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:47,840
Speaker 1: would know they were killed by a woman. Yeah. Have

1136
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:52,600
Speaker 1: you thought for a second about fight logistics? Yeah, like, like,

1137
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:55,600
Speaker 1: gotta be really precise with your killing this dude to

1138
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:58,600
Speaker 1: be like, oh, he's definitely killed enough that he's not

1139
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:02,200
Speaker 1: going to stab me while I'm unlacing my shirt. But

1140
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:04,640
Speaker 1: he's definitely not killed enough that he's gonna see these

1141
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:08,200
Speaker 1: boobs later. Come on, this didn't happen. No, But the

1142
01:06:08,240 --> 01:06:10,320
Speaker 1: fact that I don't know, it just sounds like they

1143
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:14,840
Speaker 1: didn't bind, Like yeah, which they could have. I mean,

1144
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 1: maybe they did and it wasn't enough, or I you know,

1145
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:20,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, but like or maybe that victim later

1146
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:23,680
Speaker 1: was like making some shit up. I don't know, but like,

1147
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 1: so that's my guess at least about how they lived.

1148
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: So Mary Reid, or she was known more often Mark Reid,

1149
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:36,680
Speaker 1: was born in England. You can't fault anyone for that,

1150
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 1: specifically if they declare war against all of the world,

1151
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 1: including England. Eventually born in about sixteen eighty five, Supposedly,

1152
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:46,480
Speaker 1: she starts cross dressing super young because her mother had

1153
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:48,960
Speaker 1: married a sailor and born him a son and did

1154
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 1: the thing that sailors did at the time, which is die.

1155
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:54,560
Speaker 1: So she started sucking someone else and then she got

1156
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:56,600
Speaker 1: pregnant had a daughter, but she still wanted the money

1157
01:06:56,760 --> 01:06:59,320
Speaker 1: from the mom. Wait, she got pregnant and she wasn't married.

1158
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:05,000
Speaker 1: She oh, which probably Um, she still want a child

1159
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:08,360
Speaker 1: support from the dead husband's mom, so she like lies

1160
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:10,440
Speaker 1: and claims that this is her son. The reason that

1161
01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 1: this doesn't necessarily hold up to me is like, why

1162
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:15,560
Speaker 1: would because I assume Mary Reid went by Mark read

1163
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:18,240
Speaker 1: because it's almost the same fucking name, right, um, and

1164
01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:21,880
Speaker 1: that is like a classic transfer cross dressing thing to do.

1165
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:24,360
Speaker 1: But why would she have a boy's name as a

1166
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:26,720
Speaker 1: kid that was her brother? Like unless her mother, Yeah,

1167
01:07:26,720 --> 01:07:28,959
Speaker 1: wouldn't she have been going by the name of whether

1168
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 1: she was pretending to be Yeah? Also was the brother dead? Yea,

1169
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:37,800
Speaker 1: Oh okay, sorry, you probably said that. I don't know

1170
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:41,840
Speaker 1: if I did, so. She she's probably starts again. This

1171
01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:44,480
Speaker 1: is the according to the myth version. Once she's a pirate,

1172
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:47,439
Speaker 1: we feel like we know a little bit more about

1173
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 1: what actually happened. But her backstory whatever. Um. She started

1174
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 1: working as a footboy, which is a coach attendant more

1175
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:57,200
Speaker 1: or less. Um. At thirteen, she joins the army that

1176
01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:01,919
Speaker 1: joins the navy. Right, yeah, yeah, I could I see

1177
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:05,040
Speaker 1: what you're saying about. You know, what a surprise, they're

1178
01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:09,440
Speaker 1: not all beardy. She starts fucking this other soldier, they

1179
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:12,439
Speaker 1: get hitched, They use a bunch of money. When she's

1180
01:08:12,480 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 1: like supposedly, she's like, I've been a girl this whole time,

1181
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:16,599
Speaker 1: and everyone's like, oh ha ha, that's so great. Here's

1182
01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:18,200
Speaker 1: a bunch of money. And so they go and they

1183
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:21,880
Speaker 1: open This is what actually would happen, because people were

1184
01:08:21,920 --> 01:08:23,800
Speaker 1: just like, I mean, it's so cool. You just wanted

1185
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:27,519
Speaker 1: to kill some French guys, Like okay, what a could

1186
01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:29,880
Speaker 1: fault you? And so she starts pretending she's a girl

1187
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:33,639
Speaker 1: when she opens the inn. And then her husband died.

1188
01:08:34,400 --> 01:08:38,120
Speaker 1: No one says, how at least that I've found And

1189
01:08:38,439 --> 01:08:40,559
Speaker 1: since we're making shit up whole cloth, I say she

1190
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:44,759
Speaker 1: poisoned him and then went back to being Mark Reid

1191
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:47,479
Speaker 1: and joined the crew of a merchant ship and then

1192
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:50,719
Speaker 1: thank fuck, it was captured by pirates and she joins

1193
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:53,920
Speaker 1: up right away. She pirates for a while, she has

1194
01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:56,120
Speaker 1: her fun, then she takes the king's pardon, and this

1195
01:08:56,160 --> 01:08:58,559
Speaker 1: is in seventeen eighteen or seventeen nineteen, and she becomes

1196
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:02,080
Speaker 1: a privateer for a minute, but she doesn't really like

1197
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:08,080
Speaker 1: taking orders, so they mutiny and become pirates again. In

1198
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:10,760
Speaker 1: seventeen twenty, she joins the crew of Calico Jack Will

1199
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:13,840
Speaker 1: get to him a second, and Bonnie, he had a

1200
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:16,280
Speaker 1: very good flag. Tell me about it in a moment

1201
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:19,559
Speaker 1: when we get to him. Sure, and Bonnie, she's like

1202
01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:23,240
Speaker 1: ten or fifteen years younger than Mark Reid. And the

1203
01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:25,400
Speaker 1: thing about poor people as no one really records their birth.

1204
01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:30,080
Speaker 1: She might have been born in sixteen ninety seven. She's Irish.

1205
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:34,519
Speaker 1: She's probably born to the serving This we actually heard

1206
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:36,920
Speaker 1: backstories a little bit more verifiable because her dad's rich.

1207
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:39,280
Speaker 1: She's born to the serving woman of a lawyer who

1208
01:09:39,320 --> 01:09:42,240
Speaker 1: wasn't supposed to be fucking the aforementioned serving woman, but

1209
01:09:42,320 --> 01:09:44,280
Speaker 1: her dad claimed her because he didn't like his wife.

1210
01:09:45,280 --> 01:09:49,040
Speaker 1: So they moved to London. Then they move and supposedly

1211
01:09:49,080 --> 01:09:52,160
Speaker 1: start dressing Anne as a boy named Andy. Maybe that happened,

1212
01:09:52,640 --> 01:09:56,639
Speaker 1: and then they moved to the Carolinas, which is now

1213
01:09:56,720 --> 01:10:00,719
Speaker 1: the US South or Carolina rather. When she's eighteen or nineteen,

1214
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:02,559
Speaker 1: she falls in love with a bad boy, a small

1215
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:06,000
Speaker 1: time pirate named James Bonnie. And this guy is gold digging.

1216
01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:10,519
Speaker 1: He wants the lawyer dad money. Wait wait chives BONDI

1217
01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:13,800
Speaker 1: or oh my god. I was like I was like,

1218
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:19,040
Speaker 1: I was like, wait a second, that's too good. Let's

1219
01:10:19,040 --> 01:10:23,360
Speaker 1: just go with James Bondy. Okay, yeah, all right, So

1220
01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 1: James bond do you just say he was gold digging though, yeah,

1221
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:30,120
Speaker 1: he's gold digging. I know he's oh shit. Okay. So

1222
01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:34,559
Speaker 1: because her her lawyer turned plantation owner now in the

1223
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:39,360
Speaker 1: Carolina's huh oh, he wants that dad money. But too bad,

1224
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:46,320
Speaker 1: she gets disinherited because she's dating a pirate. It is possible,

1225
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:49,640
Speaker 1: you'll get that. Yeah, it is possible. I don't believe it,

1226
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:52,400
Speaker 1: but we'll go with it. She sets fired or dad's

1227
01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:55,800
Speaker 1: plantation and revenge. It's also possible she stabbed a girl

1228
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:58,559
Speaker 1: when she was thirteen. It's also possible that's made up

1229
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 1: so her failed gold digger James Bondy. They moved to Nassau,

1230
01:11:03,280 --> 01:11:05,960
Speaker 1: which is a pirate town. Soon enough, the piece of

1231
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:09,080
Speaker 1: shit husband starts snitching on pirates to the new governor.

1232
01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:12,840
Speaker 1: This is the aforementioned Infiltrator into the Pirates. Anne isn't

1233
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:16,240
Speaker 1: happy about this, does not approve of marrying a pirate.

1234
01:11:16,320 --> 01:11:22,360
Speaker 1: Only'd find out does she stab him in the back metaphorically? Okay,

1235
01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:27,920
Speaker 1: by fucking this way, cooler, non snitchy pirate Calico Jack

1236
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:32,000
Speaker 1: Calico He's trying to be kind of upstanding here. He

1237
01:11:32,080 --> 01:11:34,800
Speaker 1: goes to the husband and is like, look, I'll give

1238
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:39,479
Speaker 1: you money if you just divorce my girlfriend, and James

1239
01:11:39,479 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 1: Bondi is like, no, I can't do that. So she's like,

1240
01:11:43,160 --> 01:11:46,880
Speaker 1: all right, well fuck you, and so she just skips. You.

1241
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:50,880
Speaker 1: Haven't done a voice for anybody in this story, but

1242
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:56,800
Speaker 1: Dan's Bondi's shitty first husband gets a voice yea, and

1243
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:00,880
Speaker 1: so she joins. She runs away with her way cooler

1244
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:04,679
Speaker 1: pirate boyfriend and becomes a pirate herself, divorces her husband,

1245
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:09,000
Speaker 1: and Mary's calico Calico Jack. We don't know his backstory

1246
01:12:09,040 --> 01:12:11,200
Speaker 1: because he wasn't a woman. Included in the Eat, Prey,

1247
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:13,840
Speaker 1: Love of Pirates. In order to sell copies, no one

1248
01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:16,479
Speaker 1: bothered to make up a backstory for him. He was

1249
01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:19,320
Speaker 1: probably born in sixteen eighty two in England. He was

1250
01:12:19,400 --> 01:12:22,320
Speaker 1: quartermaster to a guy named a pirate named Charles Vane.

1251
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:25,360
Speaker 1: Quartermaster isn't just the person who looks after the supplies.

1252
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:27,200
Speaker 1: It's sort of the sergeant who goes between the crew

1253
01:12:27,200 --> 01:12:30,519
Speaker 1: and the captain. One day, Charles Vane is like, hey,

1254
01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:32,400
Speaker 1: we're going to run from this big ship instead of

1255
01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:35,320
Speaker 1: taking it Calico Jack is like, we shouldn't run that,

1256
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:37,920
Speaker 1: you're a coward. So it was put to a vote

1257
01:12:37,920 --> 01:12:40,599
Speaker 1: about whether or not Captain Vane was a coward, and

1258
01:12:40,720 --> 01:12:44,559
Speaker 1: the crew decided that Captain Vane was a coward. All

1259
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:48,519
Speaker 1: these pirates of released sick last names anyway, especially Nathaniel missed,

1260
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:51,320
Speaker 1: who isn't a pirate, but we've decided it now he

1261
01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 1: should have been yeah, really, you know what he did.

1262
01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:59,920
Speaker 1: He missed his call? Oh god, dear, okay, okay, now,

1263
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:04,880
Speaker 1: so all right, and that's why. And that was the

1264
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:10,280
Speaker 1: last time Miriam was invited on this podcast. So the

1265
01:13:10,360 --> 01:13:13,320
Speaker 1: dissenters are given one of the ships so vain and

1266
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:15,800
Speaker 1: like the like fifteen people are so out of the

1267
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:18,920
Speaker 1: like hundred people on the ship, fuck off him. One

1268
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:21,400
Speaker 1: of the other ships in the fleet. Calico Jack becomes captain.

1269
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:25,400
Speaker 1: He then takes the King's pardon in seventeen nineteen. But

1270
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:28,519
Speaker 1: then he meets Anne Bonnie and he's like, damn girl,

1271
01:13:28,520 --> 01:13:30,639
Speaker 1: you want to go be pirates and she's like, fun, yeah,

1272
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:32,639
Speaker 1: I do, And so they go have to go be pirates,

1273
01:13:32,920 --> 01:13:35,600
Speaker 1: and now all three are on board together. And the

1274
01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:38,000
Speaker 1: story and the Eat Prey Love version is that Mary

1275
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:40,640
Speaker 1: Kalico's wife, is like, you know, this new guy is

1276
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:42,800
Speaker 1: hot and goes to Anne and is like, what's up.

1277
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:45,479
Speaker 1: You want to bone I'm secretly a lady and Anne

1278
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:48,439
Speaker 1: is like, alas, I cannot for I too, am secretly

1279
01:13:48,479 --> 01:13:51,880
Speaker 1: a woman. And then they some way for us to

1280
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:55,000
Speaker 1: have sex. You know, they gaze longingly at a Parasoian

1281
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:59,040
Speaker 1: scissors and they become historically close friends. I call bullshit

1282
01:13:59,120 --> 01:14:01,200
Speaker 1: on that, as does basically every historian who's read it.

1283
01:14:01,680 --> 01:14:04,720
Speaker 1: I think they become a power trio, although Mary is

1284
01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:07,840
Speaker 1: possibly fucking another guy on the crew, but I don't think.

1285
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:10,439
Speaker 1: I mean everyone in the crew's fucking other people on

1286
01:14:10,479 --> 01:14:15,519
Speaker 1: the crew. They're pirates, yeah, and on pirate ships people

1287
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:21,559
Speaker 1: fuck each other like many polycules. It was not to last.

1288
01:14:22,280 --> 01:14:24,760
Speaker 1: While they were being gay and doing crime in a

1289
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:28,360
Speaker 1: very literal way, the crime part got them in trouble.

1290
01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:31,639
Speaker 1: Like literally, this only lasts a couple of months. This

1291
01:14:31,680 --> 01:14:34,040
Speaker 1: is like the great thing, and like like I was

1292
01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:36,200
Speaker 1: all set to have this episode be like and this

1293
01:14:36,240 --> 01:14:39,240
Speaker 1: is where I finally doing more research about Mary and Bonnie,

1294
01:14:39,240 --> 01:14:41,360
Speaker 1: and then I'm like, there's no information about them. It's

1295
01:14:41,400 --> 01:14:45,080
Speaker 1: all lies. And they were together for like three months. Yeah. No,

1296
01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:48,639
Speaker 1: they had like one weird summer vacation, like yeah, totally

1297
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:52,400
Speaker 1: not have a career. No, I mean they did separately

1298
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:55,000
Speaker 1: before all three of them got together. But yeah, yeah,

1299
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:58,760
Speaker 1: can I tell you about Calico Jack's plass. Oh it

1300
01:14:58,920 --> 01:15:02,960
Speaker 1: is the fucking pirate classic. It is a skull over

1301
01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:08,760
Speaker 1: two crossed cutlasses. Sick fuck. Yeah, yeah, no, it's he

1302
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:12,200
Speaker 1: nailed it. Like he was a shitty pirates as you're

1303
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:14,719
Speaker 1: about to get into. He was not good at his job,

1304
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:18,599
Speaker 1: but he fucking ruled it flag design. I mean like

1305
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:21,200
Speaker 1: he just wanted to dress nice, get drunk and fuck

1306
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 1: a bunch of people, and who amongst us being a

1307
01:15:25,320 --> 01:15:27,720
Speaker 1: pop star hadn't been invented yet. He's like to be

1308
01:15:27,720 --> 01:15:31,200
Speaker 1: a pirate. Yeah, he went down in history for fucking

1309
01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:35,760
Speaker 1: some famous ladies. So they only last for a couple

1310
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:38,160
Speaker 1: of months. It gets referred to as terrorizing fishers on

1311
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:41,960
Speaker 1: the Jamaican shore before a pirate hunter gets them. That's

1312
01:15:42,040 --> 01:15:45,960
Speaker 1: such like low grade piracy. If you're terrifying fishers, like,

1313
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:49,799
Speaker 1: come on, I think they're terrified like the Navy or something.

1314
01:15:49,920 --> 01:15:52,000
Speaker 1: I know. But the thing is is it refers to

1315
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:54,360
Speaker 1: as terrorizing fishers I'm sure they robbed a fuck town

1316
01:15:54,360 --> 01:15:58,080
Speaker 1: of fishers, but they also get caught because they're drunk

1317
01:15:58,120 --> 01:16:03,920
Speaker 1: with some fishers. Yeah, the Turtlers specifically. Actually, the version

1318
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:05,799
Speaker 1: of the story I've always heard is that Anne, Bonnie,

1319
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:09,040
Speaker 1: and Mary Read were the almost people on board. Yeah, okay,

1320
01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:12,080
Speaker 1: so they're clearly terrorizing some fishers and chilling with other

1321
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:14,920
Speaker 1: fishers because most likely, either the night before they get caught,

1322
01:16:15,479 --> 01:16:18,200
Speaker 1: the crew stays up late drinking and partying with some Turtlers,

1323
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:21,120
Speaker 1: or it's literally the day that they are caught they're

1324
01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:26,040
Speaker 1: drunk with some Turtlers. Either way, possibly Halloween Day seventeen twenty,

1325
01:16:26,960 --> 01:16:32,080
Speaker 1: the crew is either drunk or hungover, except for Mary

1326
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:36,760
Speaker 1: Read and Bonnie and some other guy. They're attacked. All

1327
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 1: the men except the anonymous guy for the Wind are

1328
01:16:39,600 --> 01:16:43,040
Speaker 1: hiding below decks, and again this is the legend depart

1329
01:16:43,080 --> 01:16:45,120
Speaker 1: but whatever, its fucking This is the part where I'm like,

1330
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:49,160
Speaker 1: I'm into the legend at this point. Yeah, no, I Bellie,

1331
01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:51,080
Speaker 1: don't care if this part is true. It's part of

1332
01:16:51,080 --> 01:16:54,400
Speaker 1: the story. Mary Ann and the anonymously got anonymous guy

1333
01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:57,800
Speaker 1: defend the ship. Mary Reid is fucking furious, so she

1334
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:01,080
Speaker 1: starts firing shots into the hold, killing one of the

1335
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:06,240
Speaker 1: cowards and wounding another. They lose because there's literally three

1336
01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:09,759
Speaker 1: of them, and every one of them is too busy

1337
01:17:09,840 --> 01:17:12,840
Speaker 1: shooting at the guys who won't fight. Yeah, I'm not

1338
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:15,879
Speaker 1: mad about that, which I can understand. You know, Congress

1339
01:17:15,920 --> 01:17:17,679
Speaker 1: in the face of battle has been a capital offense

1340
01:17:17,760 --> 01:17:25,080
Speaker 1: in almost every army that's existed. It's also just very annoying. Yeah,

1341
01:17:25,080 --> 01:17:28,719
Speaker 1: everyone's captured. They're all put on trial. The two women

1342
01:17:28,800 --> 01:17:31,559
Speaker 1: plead their bellies aka, you can't kill us, we're pregnant.

1343
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:35,839
Speaker 1: The men are sentenced to death. Supposedly, Anne gets permission

1344
01:17:35,840 --> 01:17:38,320
Speaker 1: to go to her husband's sell somehow or another, and

1345
01:17:38,400 --> 01:17:43,439
Speaker 1: her last words to her husband fucking rule. Yes they do. Yeah,

1346
01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:46,160
Speaker 1: had you fought like a man, you need not be

1347
01:17:46,160 --> 01:17:51,000
Speaker 1: been hanged like a dog. That's the part where I'm like,

1348
01:17:51,040 --> 01:17:56,320
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's true, but that's metal as hell. Yeah. Yeah.

1349
01:17:56,360 --> 01:17:58,960
Speaker 1: Mary Reid died of a fever in jail, probably before

1350
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:01,640
Speaker 1: she had her kid, because there's no record of the

1351
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:06,439
Speaker 1: kid being buried. And Bonnie she disappears from the historical record.

1352
01:18:07,080 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 1: Maybe she was released, maybe she escaped, probably not, but

1353
01:18:10,040 --> 01:18:12,200
Speaker 1: you know, I'd like to imagine she's probably hanging out

1354
01:18:12,200 --> 01:18:15,479
Speaker 1: with the Witch of well Fleet. There's a death record

1355
01:18:15,479 --> 01:18:17,799
Speaker 1: in seventeen thirty three of an Ann Bonnie in Jamaica.

1356
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:20,400
Speaker 1: It's spelled a little differently, but who fucking knows. This

1357
01:18:20,800 --> 01:18:24,320
Speaker 1: spelling hadn't been invented yet either. Yeah, that's probably her.

1358
01:18:24,680 --> 01:18:26,760
Speaker 1: Other legends say that she moved to South Carolina and

1359
01:18:26,800 --> 01:18:29,679
Speaker 1: lived till seventeen eighty two. I hope she lived long.

1360
01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:35,200
Speaker 1: Who fucking knows. That's the pirates, that's what I got.

1361
01:18:35,320 --> 01:18:37,960
Speaker 1: I also, I don't know that we have any reason

1362
01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:44,760
Speaker 1: to think they were actually pregnant. I remember they got inspected.

1363
01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:49,880
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, is there a I mean, I don't know,

1364
01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:54,320
Speaker 1: fucking gynological science of the early eighteenth century. I think

1365
01:18:54,360 --> 01:18:56,519
Speaker 1: it would. I mean, it depends, like how pregnant a

1366
01:18:56,560 --> 01:19:00,519
Speaker 1: person is, whether that could be diagnosed by, you know,

1367
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:06,560
Speaker 1: presumably like some local midwife, yeah, groping their belly. But um,

1368
01:19:06,720 --> 01:19:09,920
Speaker 1: I sort of suspect they just were like, but we

1369
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:13,120
Speaker 1: were ladies on a pirate ship, of course we're pregnant.

1370
01:19:13,160 --> 01:19:16,000
Speaker 1: And everyone was like, that's probably true. Yeah, more power

1371
01:19:16,080 --> 01:19:19,400
Speaker 1: to them if that's the case, you know, because one

1372
01:19:19,439 --> 01:19:21,479
Speaker 1: thing we do not have a record of is either

1373
01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:25,400
Speaker 1: of them giving birth? Like yeah, it's a good yeah,

1374
01:19:25,520 --> 01:19:29,680
Speaker 1: all right, No, you've convinced me they're fucking liar. En.

1375
01:19:29,960 --> 01:19:33,960
Speaker 1: They deserve to die in jail because they lied. That's

1376
01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:39,280
Speaker 1: the only thing they did wrong, not the just yeah,

1377
01:19:39,479 --> 01:19:42,840
Speaker 1: terrorizing fishers, that is. I hadn't heard that phrase before.

1378
01:19:42,920 --> 01:19:45,640
Speaker 1: And that's that's kind of a bummer. That's not the like,

1379
01:19:46,560 --> 01:19:49,360
Speaker 1: that's not the glamorous pirate life you want to imagine

1380
01:19:49,400 --> 01:19:55,639
Speaker 1: for the No, the queer poly pirates of everybody's fantasies. No. Uh,

1381
01:19:55,880 --> 01:19:58,040
Speaker 1: it turns out people who do crime for a living

1382
01:19:58,160 --> 01:20:02,120
Speaker 1: usually suck. But so what does everyone else? I mean,

1383
01:20:02,360 --> 01:20:04,240
Speaker 1: if you think of it as like not that they

1384
01:20:04,240 --> 01:20:06,360
Speaker 1: were doing crime for a living, but that they were

1385
01:20:07,040 --> 01:20:15,640
Speaker 1: participating in the capitalist extraction of wealth from colonized places

1386
01:20:16,760 --> 01:20:21,840
Speaker 1: but illegally, it's like not that surprising that they sucked. Yeah,

1387
01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:26,519
Speaker 1: well that's been another moral complexity unique on behind the

1388
01:20:26,560 --> 01:20:30,800
Speaker 1: cool people or what's this podcast called cool people who

1389
01:20:30,840 --> 01:20:34,799
Speaker 1: were bastards? I think it's called cool people who were bastards. Honestly,

1390
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:38,680
Speaker 1: that sums up that sums up pirates because they were

1391
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:45,080
Speaker 1: definitely cool. Yeah, like the esthetic flawless. The stuff they

1392
01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:49,639
Speaker 1: did very badass, very dangerous. Like. They were definitely not cowards.

1393
01:20:49,680 --> 01:20:54,800
Speaker 1: They were definitely like people with some like very very

1394
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:58,439
Speaker 1: cool skills and very cool like ability to just like

1395
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:01,760
Speaker 1: plunge into battle and all that shit. But they were

1396
01:21:01,800 --> 01:21:07,000
Speaker 1: also bastard. Yeah, so I think that works here. At

1397
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:10,160
Speaker 1: the end of all things, you guiding the plug like

1398
01:21:10,320 --> 01:21:15,479
Speaker 1: you're reading that the talk if you want to hear

1399
01:21:16,160 --> 01:21:21,559
Speaker 1: more stuff about um sailor gender and also here's some

1400
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:26,720
Speaker 1: gay sea shanties. Um, you can follow up with that

1401
01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:31,400
Speaker 1: link that will be in the show notes. Yeah. I

1402
01:21:31,439 --> 01:21:34,120
Speaker 1: have another podcast. It's called Live Like the World Is Dying.

1403
01:21:34,439 --> 01:21:36,400
Speaker 1: You can listen to it wherever. Wherever you're listening to

1404
01:21:36,439 --> 01:21:40,160
Speaker 1: this fucking podcast, um, unless you're listening to it on

1405
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:43,960
Speaker 1: a website that only has this on it. I don't

1406
01:21:43,960 --> 01:21:47,520
Speaker 1: think that exists, So you can go listen to it.

1407
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:50,000
Speaker 1: It's about how to live like the world is dying.

1408
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:53,879
Speaker 1: I go for very literal titling, much like eighteenth century

1409
01:21:55,479 --> 01:21:59,639
Speaker 1: people who write books. Sophiaio, your next podcast title better

1410
01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:04,439
Speaker 1: be like fifty words long and include a semicolon, Sophie.

1411
01:22:04,800 --> 01:22:10,000
Speaker 1: Will that work? Sure? Yes, I got permission. A true

1412
01:22:10,040 --> 01:22:17,800
Speaker 1: and accurate history of the anarchists who in so doing. Wherefore,

1413
01:22:20,560 --> 01:22:27,479
Speaker 1: all right, bye everyone, see you next week. Bye. Cool

1414
01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:29,960
Speaker 1: People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of cool

1415
01:22:30,040 --> 01:22:33,280
Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, visit

1416
01:22:33,280 --> 01:22:36,240
Speaker 1: our website cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out

1417
01:22:36,360 --> 01:22:39,760
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1418
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:40,600
Speaker 1: your podcasts.