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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well? How about you?

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Speaker 2: Oh? I'm actually physically hurting.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, an encounter with a bear?

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Speaker 2: What happens multiple bears inside a jiu jitsu studio? I

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Speaker 2: started Brazilian jiu jitsu, and oh my god, I'm getting

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Speaker 2: my butt kicked left and right, over and over again.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna need some videotape evidence of that.

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Speaker 2: Well, right now, it's just my partners that I'm sparring

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Speaker 2: with are just folding me into a pretzel. So it's

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Speaker 2: not very exciting.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So what inspired this choice with all of the

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Speaker 1: other things that you're able to do in Colorado.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I kind of at various points in

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Speaker 2: my life I had done or dabbled with martial arts.

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Speaker 2: You know, when I was a young kid, my mom

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Speaker 2: had me briefly in judo, you know, and you know,

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Speaker 2: the tumbling, and then I did just briefly wrestling in

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Speaker 2: high school, did taekwondo for a while in college, you know,

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Speaker 2: and then of course, you know, going through the police

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Speaker 2: Academy and Advanced officer training would get defensive tactics instruction,

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Speaker 2: which is inspired a lot by you know, fundamental martial

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Speaker 2: arts movements. So I really wanted to do that, but

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Speaker 2: you know, the arthritis in the shoulder had always prevented me.

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Speaker 2: And so now that I'm two years post op for

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Speaker 2: the shoulder replacement, the shoulder was feeling good enough to

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Speaker 2: see if I could try this, And so you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm trying it and being very careful with the shoulder,

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Speaker 2: but you know, you can't sometimes help what the other

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Speaker 2: person is doing to you.

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Speaker 1: Was this recommended? Was this? Did your doctor really sign

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Speaker 1: off on this or did you Is this like it

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Speaker 1: don't ask you won't reveal anything sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: I think he would probably scowl at me if he

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Speaker 2: knew I was doing this.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. Kind of like me with indoor soccer people

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Speaker 1: in my life saying, I don't know if publicity tour

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Speaker 1: is going to be in your future if you get

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Speaker 1: a black eye, yes, I understand that with your shoulder.

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Speaker 2: Now, you know, the shoulder is a concern. And I mean, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I've gotten beat up. I you know, had it wasn't

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Speaker 2: a black eye yet, but got a pretty good scrape

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Speaker 2: underneath my eye. But my my feet, my knees are

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Speaker 2: all you know, scraped up. You know it's and it's different.

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Speaker 2: I you know, I try to stay reasonably fit, though

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Speaker 2: my cardio hasn't been the best. But I tell you

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Speaker 2: this is tough. It really is a physically demanding activity.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I hope I can, you know, I

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Speaker 2: don't get injured and can keep doing it because I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, of course it will just help help my

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Speaker 2: fitness level. But also, you know, the the self defense

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Speaker 2: aspect I think is huge. Yeah, and just the camaraderie

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Speaker 2: you know with yeah, I mean you're getting as close

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Speaker 2: as you possibly can to people because you're just rolling

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Speaker 2: all the time with you know, all these people that

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Speaker 2: are in the class, and you know, you form bonds.

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Speaker 2: You're you're you're trying to kick each other's ass, but

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Speaker 2: it's in a good, good way.

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Speaker 1: So it's part of mental health for you. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we know that's one of your Your biggest ways of

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Speaker 1: coping with everything that you have to cope with is

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Speaker 1: a lot of different kinds of exercise. So I have

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Speaker 1: a lot of respect for you for that. I think

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Speaker 1: that's great.

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Speaker 2: Well, it definitely you know, the uh doing an activity

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Speaker 2: because you know, with the arthritis, my my physicality had

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Speaker 2: just gone away. You know, even though I stayed active,

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Speaker 2: I knew how limited I was. And now that I'm

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Speaker 2: able to at least do something, you know, it is

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Speaker 2: very It is good. It kind of cleanses the soul.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of people who follow you on

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Speaker 1: social media know this. But you are very fit, and

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Speaker 1: despite what you're saying, you're very fit. And you have

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Speaker 1: said to me several times when we've done some rescheduling,

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Speaker 1: you've been really flexible, because my schedule at the University

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Speaker 1: of Texas is really wonky. Sometimes you've been really flexible

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Speaker 1: But one thing that you said that stands out to

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Speaker 1: me is you said my mornings, my early mornings are

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Speaker 1: sacred because that's when you try to go to the gym.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that discipline's really great and it's

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Speaker 1: nice to see it expanding not just into the gym,

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Speaker 1: but I know you're doing some swimming and you're doing

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff where you're really trying to rehab

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Speaker 1: that shoulder and be responsible with it. That's great.

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Speaker 2: Oh, we'll see how it goes.

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Speaker 1: You know, no more scraped up eyes than I.

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Speaker 2: Can't guarantee you that. So listen.

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Speaker 1: As long as you don't get an elbow to the

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Speaker 1: wind pipe, I think I'm okay with whatever you do.

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Speaker 1: But if we start, if I start hearing your voice

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Speaker 1: be affected, then I'm going to have to put my

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Speaker 1: foot down. I think.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, that's one of the primary parts of

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Speaker 2: jiu jitsu is the submissions, and of the submissions are

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Speaker 2: various chokes.

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Speaker 1: No, sir, Nope, no sir, no choking, Paul, I should

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Speaker 1: not have to say that, but no choking. Please, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to put a little insurance policy on your voice. Nope,

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Speaker 1: that's it, that's it. You just be careful, and I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you'll be fine, but I'm glad that you're expanding

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Speaker 1: your horizons.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's go ahead and transition to our story, which

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Speaker 1: takes us to Upstate New York, one of my favorite spots.

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Speaker 1: I wrote a book set in Upstate New York and

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Speaker 1: it's near the Finger Lakes. And I want to give

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Speaker 1: people a warning that in this episode we do talk

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Speaker 1: about the death of a child. So let's go ahead

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Speaker 1: and get started. Let's set the scene. Okay, So let's

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Speaker 1: jump into a story that is very complicated. I know

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Speaker 1: I say that all the time, but this is really

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Speaker 1: a killer who there's a lot more to this person

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Speaker 1: than it seems. So we're going to be doing something

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Speaker 1: a little different. We're going to go into present day,

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Speaker 1: which to me is hilarious because it's eighteen and then

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Speaker 1: we're going to go back a few months, and then

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Speaker 1: we're going to go back to present day eighteen forty

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Speaker 1: six to kind of see if when you hear about

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Speaker 1: this crime initially you'll have a reaction. And then when

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Speaker 1: we hear about the killer and then return to the scene,

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Speaker 1: I just wonder what kind of clarity you have when

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Speaker 1: you learn about a killer's background, And we haven't talked

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Speaker 1: a ton about that yet about what leads killers to

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Speaker 1: do what they do, the level of brutality, and how

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Speaker 1: much do you leading into this episode, Paul care about

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Speaker 1: a killer's background, Like, I know, it informs you of

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Speaker 1: stuff you know, but does it sway you very much

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Speaker 1: when you find out about things that have happened to

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Speaker 1: this person in the past.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The offenders' behaviors, of course, are being dictated by

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Speaker 2: his or her own internal thoughts, fantasies, and what has

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Speaker 2: caused them to lead up to committing this act of

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Speaker 2: violence is often what they've experienced in their past. Now,

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Speaker 2: typically when I'm getting involved in a case it's unsolved,

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Speaker 2: I don't know the offender's past. So what I'm doing

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Speaker 2: is I'm reading what I can discern from what the

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Speaker 2: violence the offender did, the interactions with the victim, who

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Speaker 2: the victim is, to try to get a sense of

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Speaker 2: the offender's past to help narrow the suspect pool, you know.

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Speaker 2: So it's kind of in reverse and I kind of

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Speaker 2: go to Golden State Killer with Joseph DiAngelo. I was

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Speaker 2: doing all sorts of analyses based on. You know what

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Speaker 2: the victims who he let live, what they said he did,

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Speaker 2: you know what they said he said to them, but

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Speaker 2: also what he did during the homicides where the victims

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Speaker 2: can't speak, And that was informative as I was focusing

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Speaker 2: in as to Okay, what suspect pool am I going

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Speaker 2: to dive into? But once DiAngelo was identified, I just

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Speaker 2: wanted to know a little bit about who he was.

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Speaker 2: But then I kind of pushed away. You know, I'm

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Speaker 2: all about the hunt. Yeah, yeah, And so now I

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Speaker 2: know there's probably a lot more that's been made public

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Speaker 2: about the Angel that I'm I haven't gone and dug

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Speaker 2: into him yet. You know, that may happen at some point,

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Speaker 2: but it is something that you know, your your criminologists,

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Speaker 2: your profilers, they study, you know, once an offender is identified,

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Speaker 2: they study the offender's past to try to learn, Okay,

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Speaker 2: why did this, why did this individual commit to this

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Speaker 2: type of crime, and how can we utilize that information

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Speaker 2: in the future for other unsolved cases, you know, to

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Speaker 2: be able to help the investigation.

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Speaker 1: And that's not right now your main interest when you're

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Speaker 1: looking at these cases, because I know you did mention

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Speaker 1: that about Joseph D'Angelo that now that he's been caught,

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Speaker 1: you're not reading about updates on court cases or his

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Speaker 1: health or like other people who are really interested in

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Speaker 1: true crime, you're moving on to the new because you're

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Speaker 1: really interested in the result, the end result, not necessarily

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Speaker 1: what led this person. You're not looking at the mystery

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Speaker 1: behind the dart mind right, not once they're caught.

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Speaker 2: Not typically. No, you know, I have done that, and

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Speaker 2: that was just all part of sort of the academic

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Speaker 2: side in terms of learning what can be discerned, you know,

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Speaker 2: about the offender and who the offender is based on

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Speaker 2: what the offender does to the victim or does that

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Speaker 2: a crime scene, et cetera. Maybe at some point I

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Speaker 2: will get more geared into studying identified offenders in their past,

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Speaker 2: you know. But it's just like, you know, recently, relatively recently,

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Speaker 2: Long Island serial killer was identified, and all I needed

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Speaker 2: to know is, oh, he's architect, lived in the area,

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Speaker 2: using the online space, sophisticated offender. I don't need to

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Speaker 2: dive into his psychology, his upbringing, how his father treated

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Speaker 2: him or anything like that. Right now. I don't have

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Speaker 2: an interest. It's like, okay, move on, you know, let's

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Speaker 2: focus in on another case that that needs some help

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Speaker 2: to identify who's committing these crimes, who has committed the crimes.

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Speaker 1: Well, for this case, I need you to be interested

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Speaker 1: in the guy's background, to do a big think about

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Speaker 1: what ends up happening with the killer in this case.

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Speaker 1: And I know that because I've requested it, you will

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Speaker 1: do it, Paul Holes, even though I know that's not

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Speaker 1: your primary interest.

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Speaker 2: Yes, ma'am.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So this is in New York State, upstate New York.

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Speaker 1: One of my favorite places. My third book and the

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Speaker 1: first podcast was set in upstate New York near Ithaca,

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Speaker 1: but it was right on the finger Lakes. Which was

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Speaker 1: my lake was Cugo Lake. But this is close to

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Speaker 1: one of the finger lakes, which is Owasco Lake. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't play into this story, but it's nice for you.

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Speaker 1: I know, I see you on Google Maps right now.

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Speaker 1: I know you like to see current day stuff, but

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Speaker 1: it's nice to sort of picture this. I think it's

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Speaker 1: a beautiful area. I unfortunately end up being there in

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Speaker 1: February most of the time, which I still think is beautiful.

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Speaker 1: But the locals are always like, why are you doing

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Speaker 1: it now? Why don't you come in the spring or

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Speaker 1: in the fall. So what do you think it's a

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Speaker 1: nice setting for us, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I'm looking at you know, the location

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Speaker 2: in the country where it's at. I can see why

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Speaker 2: you know this, this name of finger lakes. You know,

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Speaker 2: you've got some very long narrow lakes all, you know,

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Speaker 2: spread throughout this region, you know, Rochester, Syracuse, Ithaca. I

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Speaker 2: bet in February it's got to be freezing cold.

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Speaker 1: Though it's freezing yes, I can attest to that freezing

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Speaker 1: cold and slippery. For me, I will let me tell you.

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Speaker 1: I went into the backyard. I was at Edward Rulolph's

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Speaker 1: old home, which was the subject of the first season

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Speaker 1: of tenfold More Wicket in my book. The owner, who

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Speaker 1: is one of his relatives, popped her head out the

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Speaker 1: window and I was in the back and I was

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Speaker 1: just standing on a pile of sticks, and she said,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're standing on a pretty large creek, right

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Speaker 1: And I looked, and she said, it's iced over. I

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Speaker 1: would get off the creek if you can right now.

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Speaker 1: And I thought, I mean, I grew up in the country,

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Speaker 1: but Texas, we don't have stuff like that happening. So

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Speaker 1: I learned a little lesson about thinking sticks were safe

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Speaker 1: to step on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's scary. I'm glad you didn't fall break through the.

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Speaker 1: Ice me too, I know. So we are in the

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Speaker 1: Finger Lakes region, but it's eighteen forty six, which is

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Speaker 1: pretty far back for us. And actually this is right

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Speaker 1: when Edward Rulolph was stomping around this area also, so

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Speaker 1: this is a time period I've researched in this area.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you about where we are. This is

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Speaker 1: a beautiful area now and in eighteen forty six. Also,

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Speaker 1: it's near the lake I had mentioned, which is Owasco Lake,

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Speaker 1: and it's one of New York State's eleven finger lakes.

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Speaker 1: They are long and narrow and really pretty. I love it.

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Speaker 1: Waterfalls and a couple of them, and it's very nice.

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Speaker 1: So in the mid nineteenth century, this area is booming,

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Speaker 1: lots of manufacturing at mills, lots of farmers. It's beautiful.

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Speaker 1: The industrial revolution has not quite gotten here yet. It's

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Speaker 1: very rural, really but really pretty. People are more and

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Speaker 1: more people are going to school even than the countryside.

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Speaker 1: And Auburn and Fleming and this does come into play

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Speaker 1: a little bit. Auburn and Fleming, these are two of

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Speaker 1: the towns where we're talking about eventually become enshrined in

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Speaker 1: history for their connection to the abolitionist movement, especially Auburn,

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Speaker 1: because it's a hot spot for abolitionists, including Harriet Tubman.

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Speaker 1: Black people in Cuga County are still contending, of course,

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Speaker 1: with discrimination and racism and white supremacy that are plaguing

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Speaker 1: the nation just overall. So race is a big part

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Speaker 1: of this story. I'll alert you about that right now. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So this is a beautiful area, very rural, tight knit communities.

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Speaker 1: You know, people know other people, but for sure racial tension. Now.

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Speaker 1: Slavery officially ended in New York State in eighteen twenty seven,

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Speaker 1: so that's sixteen years earlier. But of course Black New

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Speaker 1: Yorkers are still in serious social and economical disadvantage and

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Speaker 1: economic disadvantage compared to white people. So this means that,

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Speaker 1: as I said, racial tensions quite a lot, especially when

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Speaker 1: crimes are being committed. So now that I've set the scene,

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Speaker 1: let's get to the first of a couple of different crimes.

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Speaker 1: This is the main one though. Around nine thirty pm

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Speaker 1: on March twelfth, eighteen forty six, we are going to

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Speaker 1: focus on one family, the Van nest family, and there

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Speaker 1: is a woman named Sarah. We don't know her age.

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Speaker 1: We looked all through newspaper articles and they were very vague,

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Speaker 1: which is not surprising for the nineteenth century. She goes

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Speaker 1: into her backyard, which is in Fleming, New York, and

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Speaker 1: she steps outside. We don't know for what. It could

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Speaker 1: have been firewood, it could have been for anything. It's

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Speaker 1: nine thirty at night. It could have been to use

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Speaker 1: the outhouse. We don't know. She is attacked in She

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Speaker 1: is the first in this family who is absolutely brutalized

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Speaker 1: by what seems to be one killer. So the man

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Speaker 1: is armed with a knife. There will be a witness

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Speaker 1: in a little bit who survives, but most of the

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Speaker 1: people in this family do not. So she's outside. It's

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Speaker 1: in March. There could be snow on the ground, we

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Speaker 1: don't know. She steps outside, someone stabs her with a knife,

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Speaker 1: strong upward sweep of the knife, inflicting a single, deep

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Speaker 1: wound in the abdomen, and she dies shortly after being attacked. So,

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Speaker 1: just on the offset, you've got somebody in her backyard,

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Speaker 1: fenced in in Fleming at nine point thirty at night,

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Speaker 1: who is attacking her? This woman for no apparent reason,

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Speaker 1: and there doesn't seem to be evidence of a sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: What at first, Blush is your thought about this besides

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Speaker 1: it's awful.

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Speaker 2: Of course, you said this was nine thirty at night, correct. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so in March it's obviously going to be and cold,

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Speaker 2: dark and cold. Now I'm assuming that this was not

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Speaker 2: a routine by Sarah in terms of every night she's

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Speaker 2: stepping out at nine point thirty.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't sound like it now. It sounds just we don't

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Speaker 1: know why she went outside, but it could have been

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Speaker 1: a myriad of reasons.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So at this point, at first Blush, this sounds

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Speaker 2: like Sarah was a victim of opportunity. The offender was

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Speaker 2: in the area, was armed, and if the offender pounced

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Speaker 2: right away, I mean, there is no delay, There is

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Speaker 2: no you know, kind of surveillance. As Sarah's wandering around outside,

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Speaker 2: the offender had already committed to committing violence, you know,

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Speaker 2: on whoever stepped outside. I can't say that there is

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Speaker 2: a focus on Sarah at this point without knowing more.

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Speaker 2: You know what, why was the offender in the area.

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Speaker 2: Is this a stranger to Sarah's stranger to the family.

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Speaker 2: Is this somebody who has a connection to the home.

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Speaker 2: You know, these are questions that I would be asking,

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Speaker 2: you know, is it possible this is you know, an

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Speaker 2: internal an inside job, so to speak, and within the family.

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Speaker 2: You have a violent actor who decides to take Sarah out,

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Speaker 2: you know, to kill her while she's outside. But right now,

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming that the offender has just happened to be

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Speaker 2: out there whether to commit a burglary, but had already

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Speaker 2: in his mind. And I'm gonna just use the pronoun

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Speaker 2: his just because most of these types of crimes are

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Speaker 2: committed by males. But it's not specific. I can't say

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Speaker 2: for sure it's a male being armed with a knife

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Speaker 2: and if he acted that fast, he was there primarily

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Speaker 2: with an intent to commit violence. It's interesting just a

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Speaker 2: what was described as a single upwards sweep of the knife,

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Speaker 2: and so in essence you have probably a stab followed

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Speaker 2: by an incisive action cutting through Sarah. I'm assuming her

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Speaker 2: abdominal area, and it was enough to kill her. There's

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Speaker 2: no additional stab wounds, no defensive injuries. She was absolutely

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Speaker 2: blitzed and the offender didn't spend time with her. Oftentimes

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Speaker 2: you will see with knife attacks, you know, the victim

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Speaker 2: is subdued, and then you have a lot more knife play,

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Speaker 2: more stabbing, stabbing in the heart, stabbing in the next

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Speaker 2: stabbing in the face. This is not happening here, so

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Speaker 2: this is almost like an elimination homicide, and then the

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Speaker 2: offender is moving on.

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Speaker 1: I think blitzed is an excellent way to describe what's

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Speaker 1: getting ready to happen. So, yes, you're accurate with everything

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Speaker 1: you're saying so far. And I will tell you at

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Speaker 1: the end of this there is no robbery. There's no one.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that wasn't what his intention was, but

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Speaker 1: nothing was taken. Listen to this. It's awful. So John

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Speaker 1: her husband, Sarah's husband, the victim. Here's her scream, so

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Speaker 1: she gets a scream out before she dies. He's a

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Speaker 1: local farmer about forty one years old and a justice

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Speaker 1: of the peace. He hears her scream, he rushes to

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Speaker 1: the back door. He's at the front of the house.

359
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Speaker 1: Before he can step outside, the door's open and the

360
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Speaker 1: killer with this knife confronts him and stabs him on

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Speaker 1: the left side of his chest, near his breastbone, one

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Speaker 1: wound five inches deep, and they say he dies instantly

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Speaker 1: in the doorway of his house. One more, just one

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Speaker 1: stab and it keeps going just so you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this knife, you know the description of the

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Speaker 2: stab wound just left of the breastbone, this knife, that

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Speaker 2: stab wound likely went into John's heart, possibly severed, you know,

368
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Speaker 2: a orda for him to just die instantly like that.

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Speaker 2: It was just a perfectly placed stab wound. Now, you

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Speaker 2: mentioned John was a justice of the peace yep okay

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Speaker 2: and in eighteen forty six, is that basically the equivalent

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Speaker 2: of what I would call a judge today?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think somebody who's just in law enforcement,

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Speaker 1: so I mean a justice of the piece I think

375
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Speaker 1: could be a judge. It also could be somebody who responds,

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Speaker 1: you know, if there's an emergency. So yes, but he's

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Speaker 1: also a farmer. I mean, you know, people wore so

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Speaker 1: many hats in the eighteen hundreds.

379
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Speaker 2: Sure, and so I'm just kind of keying in on

380
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Speaker 2: the victimology there in terms of potential suspect pools who

381
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Speaker 2: has he run across during his job? You know that

382
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Speaker 2: could be seeking vengeance?

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Speaker 1: Yep, What is the one wound? I know you mentioned

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Speaker 1: this with Sarah, but with a man is the one

385
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Speaker 1: stab wound significant of anything. Does that tell you anything?

386
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Speaker 1: Because I could see with a woman, maybe he thinks

387
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Speaker 1: just this one sweeping would take care of her. But

388
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Speaker 1: this is a forty one year old farmer who we

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Speaker 1: presume is in good shape.

390
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Speaker 2: Well, I'm surprised because typically in stabbing homicides there's usually

391
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Speaker 2: more wounds than just a single wound. It's possible that

392
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Speaker 2: this offender is got a fair amount of experience in

393
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Speaker 2: using a knife and knows, you know, what it takes

394
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Speaker 2: to kill somebody, and you know, knowing where he stabbed

395
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Speaker 2: John and how John reacted afterwards, had absolute confidence that

396
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Speaker 2: he killed John and then moves on. But just like

397
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Speaker 2: with Sarah, the offender is not spending time. It's again,

398
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Speaker 2: this is an elimination homicide.

399
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Speaker 1: Okay, well there's more elimination here. So John is dead

400
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 1: in the doorway, Sarah's dead outside. He walks into the house,

401
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,920
Speaker 1: goes to the second floor and comes face to face

402
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Speaker 1: with Sarah's mother, who is a woman named Phoebe Wykoff.

403
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Speaker 1: She's on the staircase. I'm sure very upset. She sees

404
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 1: him with the knife, bloody, She tries to run, He

405
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Speaker 1: stabs her, kills her, Ultimately she dies a little bit later,

406
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Speaker 1: but she still dies from the wounds. I don't it

407
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Speaker 1: just says wounds. I'm not sure how many times. But

408
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Speaker 1: if she's actively if he hasn't surprised her and she's

409
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Speaker 1: actively either fighting or running, I assume he thought it

410
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Speaker 1: would take more than one stab to take care of her.

411
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Speaker 1: But he encounters her and he's killing anybody who gets

412
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Speaker 1: in his way essentially, So.

413
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Speaker 2: You know, one of the thoughts questions I guess that

414
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Speaker 2: I that I have, is this offender, Okay, he's he's

415
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 2: killed Sarah, he's killed John, he's going into the house.

416
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Speaker 2: Phoepe is upstairs. I you know, the question that I

417
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Speaker 2: have is is did he know that she was inside

418
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Speaker 2: this house before he entered or is he now just

419
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 2: kind of going in and doing an essence a building search,

420
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Speaker 2: just trying to see who is in the house and

421
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 2: then killing them as he encounters them. So right now,

422
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 2: don't know, you know, but it's it's interesting that you know,

423
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 2: he is progressing going upstairs and you know, possibly either

424
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 2: knows Phoepe's up there, or is wanting to just eliminate

425
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 2: anybody that's inside this house.

426
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Speaker 1: Well let's keep talking now, We've got Sarah dead in

427
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 1: the backyard, John, her husband, dead in the doorway, Sarah's mother,

428
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 1: phoebe dead round the staircase. He enters a nearby bedroom

429
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Speaker 1: on the second floor. And this is the warning that

430
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 1: I told the listeners about. This is where the family,

431
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 1: the Vannists family's child is. He's two. His name is George,

432
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: and he's been sleeping with John and Sarah, his parents.

433
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 1: The killer goes in with this knife, and the newspaper

434
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: report said that George is stabbed to death so severely

435
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: that the knife passed completely through his body. Now, what

436
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: the hell does that mean, Paul?

437
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:54,160
Speaker 2: That is not unusual for a stabbing of a small

438
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 2: child like that.

439
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: Oh gosh.

440
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 2: In fact, I have a case involving it was a

441
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 2: whole family. It wasn't a case I went out on

442
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 2: as when I reviewed as a triple homicide a mother,

443
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 2: father and a little boy, you know, in diapers and

444
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 2: a crib. And this is exactly what happens when you

445
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 2: have a long enough knife going through such a small body.

446
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 2: So it doesn't really it's not indicative of any additional

447
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 2: anger or level of violence being inflicted on George relative

448
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 2: to what was done to Sarah John or Phoebe.

449
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,160
Speaker 1: But killing a child, Yeah, what is that signify to you?

450
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: Wiping out a whole family or just wanting to kill

451
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: whoever's in your way.

452
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 2: I think it depends. You could have an offender that

453
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 2: has got some vindictive rage that is just decided I'm

454
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 2: taking out everybody related to this family. Like in the

455
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 2: other case that I reviewed that I talked about where

456
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 2: the toddler was killed, gets very possible. In that case,

457
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 2: the toddler ends up awake and is making a lot

458
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 2: of noise, is crying, and so now the offender is

459
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 2: eliminating that noise because that elevates the risk of the

460
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 2: offender being detected inside the house. And so it really

461
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 2: just depends on you know, what I would be interpreting

462
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: is how much time the offender in this case is

463
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: spending with George. Is it a single stab wound or

464
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 2: is there a lot more violence being inflicted on George.

465
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 2: Then that could be informative in terms of why the

466
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: offender is choosing to kill the child.

467
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you, the offender doesn't have very long

468
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: stab George, because we do have a survivor out of

469
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 1: this whole mess. So you know, we have Sarah in

470
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 1: the backyard, John in the doorway, the mother in law

471
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: who's in the staircase, and then George is now dead.

472
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: The offender turns with this knife and starts to walk

473
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 1: out the door, and he is confronted by a farm hand.

474
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: His name is Cornelius van Arsdale, and he normally doesn't

475
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 1: spend the night in the house, but he did this night,

476
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 1: which is unfortunate for him. The offender raises the knife

477
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: and stabs Cornelius in the chest, but because of all

478
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: of the noise, it sounds like Cornelius knew this was

479
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 1: trouble and he came armed with a broom and he

480
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:31,959
Speaker 1: starts to fight off the slasher with a broom. So

481
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: here's the curious part which starts to play in to

482
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: the request I had of you, if to think about

483
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: when we find out who this killer is, what the

484
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: background is, and why it matters. So he's fighting off Cornelius,

485
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 1: this killer, who has a broom, and Cornelius, being a farmhand,

486
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 1: is putting up a heck of a fight. The offender

487
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: stops trying to stab Cornelius at one point and asks him, quote,

488
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 1: is there a man there, before continuing to try to

489
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 1: stab him, and eventually Cornelius basically shoves him out the door.

490
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 1: It's an odd question is there a man there? But

491
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 1: I think that Cornelius was interpreting it later on to

492
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 1: be like, is there somebody else there? Maybe he was

493
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: on the hunt for someone. It was an odd question,

494
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 1: especially to literally stop in the middle of trying to

495
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: kill somebody and ask a question and then continue on

496
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: what do you make of that?

497
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 2: It is odd? You know, you think about this dynamic,

498
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:36,360
Speaker 2: very stressful situation that Cornelius has found himself in. He's

499
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: being confronted by a man who's now trying to kill him.

500
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 2: One of the questions that I would have about the interview.

501
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 2: You know, here he is as a witness, he's making

502
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 2: a statement, okay, under this stressful situation. Did he hear

503
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 2: that statement accurately? You know, that's always going to be

504
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: something that I would be questioning just due to the

505
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 2: nature of how he's hearing that statement. But assuming that

506
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: that statement is accurate, why is the offender asking that?

507
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 2: Is he asking if there's somebody another male in the house?

508
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 2: Or is that a statement directed at Cornelius? Are you

509
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 2: a man? You know, almost as if it's derogatory. I

510
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 2: don't know you know at this point, but I have

511
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 2: a feeling that that will clarify itself as you tell

512
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 2: me more details about what Cornelius witnessed.

513
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: Here is an option number three. I don't mean to

514
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 1: lead the witness here, but I also wonder if there's

515
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: a delusional aspect to this.

516
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah.

517
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: When he asks that question, I just finished listening to

518
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: our episode about sleepwalking, and I just remember thinking we've

519
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: encountered that quite a bit, people who just claim that

520
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: they don't remember what's happening. And I'm not saying that's

521
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: what's happening here. It's just a question of is that

522
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: a possibility to.

523
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 2: Well most certainly, you know, And this is where we

524
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 2: start talking about are we dealing with a psychotic offender,

525
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 2: a disorganized offender that is just decided this is the

526
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 2: house and I'm going to go inside this house and

527
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 2: take everybody out.

528
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: Well, we have two more events that I think are

529
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: very odd in a very upsetting and odd crime spree here,

530
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: and I'm going to pause after each one, and you

531
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: tell me what you think. So now you know, we've

532
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: got three adults, one child dead. We have a farm

533
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: hand who's been stabbed in the chest, but with a

534
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: broom has managed to get this guy out the door.

535
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,239
Speaker 1: And now I'm sure Cornelius is trying to figure out

536
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: now that he's shoved him out the door and shut

537
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: the door and locked it, I'm sure Cornelius is trying

538
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: to figure out what he's going to do next, how

539
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: he's going to get help. He's seeing all these bodies everywhere.

540
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: He looks out the window, as do we think a

541
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: couple of the little tiny kids who were living on

542
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: a different floor who might been witnesses. We aren't one

543
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: hundred percent sure. We just know Cornelius definitely saw everything.

544
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: Cornelius says that the man walked out the door after

545
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: he got shoved out the door, he walked away, and

546
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: then he turned around and he came back. After all

547
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: of this, he comes back to the house. He kicked

548
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 1: the door, he bent down and peered in the window,

549
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: all while holding this knife, and then he vanished. Why

550
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,959
Speaker 1: would he go back after fighting with this man and

551
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: clearly being ejected, Why would he go back and look

552
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: in the window. It just seems so weird.

553
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 2: I think as he's walking away, he's recognizing that Cornelius

554
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: is a witness. Yeah, you know, I don't know if

555
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 2: Cornelius knows the offender, but Cornelius might be able to

556
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 2: describe the offender, and so he's going back to eliminate

557
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 2: that witness. That's the first thing that pops into my head.

558
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: Or he's deciding that his you know, his job is

559
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 2: on finished inside that house for whatever reason.

560
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: Boy, it seems like it's taking a big risk by

561
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: doing that, But you're right. And also if he's in

562
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: the heat of all of this and not thinking straight,

563
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: maybe that's something he's doing. It just seems so odd.

564
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: Now this gets even more odd. Cornelius is looking out

565
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: the window. After the man turned and left for the

566
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: second time. The offender goes to the Van Nest's stable.

567
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: He gets on an old, unsteady horse, and I imagine

568
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: wants to kick it and have him take off and

569
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: take him to safety. But this is a very old

570
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: horse and he isn't able to carry the offender very long.

571
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 1: The horse ends up collapsing a few miles away on

572
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: a road, and you know, we could see this that

573
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: far away, right, So he's injuring the offender when he

574
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: falls down, and it sounds like what happens is the

575
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: offender grabs the knife and he stabs the horse to death.

576
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: Is that psychotic or is that just a bad man?

577
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 2: We don't know yet, they don't know, know. I think,

578
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 2: you know, it could be you know, he's frustrated and

579
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: angry the horse didn't accomplish what he wanted to do,

580
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 2: which is to get further away, and so he's just

581
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 2: taking that anger out on the horse. It could be

582
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 2: a delusional aspect for sure, So who knows, But I imagine

583
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 2: this is a fairly rural location. Yes, so he's probably

584
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 2: the only one in this spot with the horse as

585
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 2: opposed to you know, other horses and carriages, you know,

586
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 2: riding by, So he's not necessarily feeling that there's a

587
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 2: lot of eyeballs that are going to be seeing him.

588
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: So maybe he's he's got a level of comfort knowing. Okay, well,

589
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 2: he's upset with the horse. Possibly, unless it's a delusional

590
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 2: act and he's taken some time to kill this horse

591
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 2: versus just running off.

592
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: Can you be delusional and angry at the same time? Oh?

593
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Okay, yeah, no, for sure, you know, and delusional thoughts.

594
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 2: And I'm you know, I have to preface this. I

595
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 2: am not an expert when it comes to the various

596
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 2: mental health conditions, but these individuals can take you know,

597
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: whether it be a normal anger response, and then of

598
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 2: course during a psychotic break, they act out or they

599
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 2: misinterpret some benign incident. But because of their mental state,

600
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: that is the stressor that kind of causes them to

601
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 2: start acting out violently, you know, because they're misperceiving or

602
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 2: misinterpreting this benign thing that is occurring in front of them.

603
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: Well, it'll be interesting to see how this unfolds. The offender,

604
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: who had just stabbed a horse as well as five people,

605
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: decides he still needs to get out of town. He

606
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: goes to another stable that's not too far away, steals

607
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,439
Speaker 1: a different horse, and continues to go out of town.

608
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 1: So a couple of things before we move forward with

609
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: this story about the dynamics, Just so we know, we

610
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: have that witness, Cornelius, and Cornelius was asked once it

611
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 1: was revealed that this all happened and law enforcement came

612
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: and he was interviewed. He was asked what does the

613
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: man look like? And Cornelius said he was a black man.

614
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: The Van Nest family was a white family, and here

615
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: we get into the very complicated relationships between black people

616
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: and white people in eighteen forty six upstate New York,

617
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 1: particularly complicated when a crime happens. The Van Nests had

618
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: an excellent reputation and the interracial aspect of the murders

619
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: sends shock waves through the community. And I would have

620
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: thought it would be harder to catch the offender, but

621
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 1: people knew who he was. I don't think it was Cornelius,

622
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: but I do think that when word got around, there

623
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: was someone who turns out to be the killer. His

624
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 1: name was William Freeman. He is in his early twenties.

625
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: He is a black man. He was arrested by constables

626
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: the next day, forty miles from the crime scene because

627
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,479
Speaker 1: he was trying to steal that stolen horse, the one

628
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: that he did not stab. And William Freeman was about

629
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: to go under the spotlight for murdering this white family

630
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: and it would become something that really affected the community.

631
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: So the main suspect we have is William Freeman. We

632
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: don't know very much about him. I will tell you

633
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: that this story is so big that it needs to

634
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: be a two parter, and it also makes history in

635
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: the courts. It's an important story, so I'm going to

636
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,720
Speaker 1: leave you with this. William Freeman is a complicated man

637
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: with a very very difficult past, and I just am

638
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: going to want to know from you how much does

639
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: knowing about his past and what he's been through inform

640
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: you about what happened with the Van Nest family. And

641
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: that's what we're going to talk about next week.

642
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 2: It sounds good, and you know, I have a ton

643
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 2: of questions myself.

644
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: Oh row, no more questions. Well, okay, So I will

645
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: see you next week with part two of the story.

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Speaker 2: Sounds good, looking forward to it.

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Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

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Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia dot com slash

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Speaker 1: Barrybones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

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00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

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00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

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Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

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Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

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Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

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Speaker 1: bary Bones.

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Speaker 2: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

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Speaker 2: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decote

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00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 2: the criminal mind, is available now, and

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Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold cases,

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Speaker 1: is also available now