WEBVTT - Can the Blockchain Have a Good Use Case for Gaming? 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:06.120 This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberghart podcast, and I'm 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:09.479 Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for Bloomberg News. 0:00:09.960 --> 0:00:22.680 It's Friday, November twenty Hey, y'll Stacy Marie here. Because 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:26.079 of the Thanksgiving holiday in the US, we are representing 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:29.880 one of our previous recordings for the holiday. If you're celebrating, 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:32.120 I hope you have a good day. Thanks for listening. 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.800 I used to argue, I still sometimes argue that you 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:43.480 could divide folks into two categories, people who play video 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:50.920 games and everybody else. Gaming is bigger in revenue terms 0:00:51.000 --> 0:00:56.000 worldwide than the film and television industries combined. It's also 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.920 a complex universe that's dealing with hard and necessary conversation 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:03.800 about things like who benefits from those record breaking profits, 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:07.759 whose work and whose labor, and under what conditions are 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.039 these profits being made? And as always, there's tough questions 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:14.560 about things like intellectual property. And that's before you even 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:17.080 add blockchain and n f t s into the mix. 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:21.839 Joining me now is Bloomberg Reports Cecilia Donastasio. The bigger 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:25.640 question is do gamers want their teams to look like capitalism? 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:28.200 She's going to discuss why and how crypto is showing 0:01:28.280 --> 0:01:31.120 up in video games and why much of that gaming 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:39.080 community isn't necessarily a big fan of either technology. Cecilia, 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:41.160 thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:44.360 Thank you so much for having me. You are a 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:47.120 video games reporter at Bloomberg, And once I got over 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:49.720 my jealousy of the existence of video games reporters at 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:52.120 Bloomberg doing jobs that I was not doing, I started 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.800 asking the question, what is the intersection of crypto and 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:58.520 n f t s and video games? Yeah, it's a 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:01.920 huge question. So over the last couple of years, people 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:04.480 who have been involved in both the video game industry 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:08.800 and the world of crypto have looked at games and 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.600 thought to themselves, well, games have virtual currency and games 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:16.120 of virtual items. Crypto is a virtual currency and n 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:20.040 f t s are technology underpinning virtual items. What if 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:23.560 these two things were married. And it's been very interesting 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:25.679 to see how that has and has not played out. 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:30.800 How has it played out? Yeah, So we have seen 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:35.080 crypto games for several years. People say Crypto Kitties was 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:39.040 one of the first ones in two thousand and seventeen. Basically, um, 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:43.399 there are these virtual cats that were sort of symbolic 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:47.520 of real life value through crypto. And one of the 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:50.079 things that was pretty interesting with crypto Kitties was that 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:52.360 despite the fact that one pet might self for a 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.320 hundred thousand dollars, the equivalent of that in crypto, players 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:59.440 really bled out of crypto Kitties because, and we've seen 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:02.240 this several time time since then, there was an increasing 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:06.360 division between richer players who had enough money to buy 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:09.040 high value assets early on in the game high value cat, 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:15.600 high value cats. Sorry for calling cats assets people too. Yeah, 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:18.760 and these poorer players, though, who also, um, who were 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:21.440 not able to kind of scale the ladder and have 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:23.920 as much fun with the game. I want to kind 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:26.960 of go into a little bit more detail here because 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:29.600 I think it's fair to say we both play a 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:32.720 reasonable amount of video games, or perhaps an unreasonable amount. 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:38.000 I was about to it depends on your perspective, really, um. 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:40.320 And one of the things about video games is, you know, 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:43.400 a lot of them involve some kind of grind, right, 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:48.240 some kind of not fun, repetitive activity that you do 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:50.920 over and over again in order to get the loots 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:52.760 that lets you buy the swords that lets you do 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:56.200 the thing that you want to do with Crypto, there's 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:58.840 a dynamic in there that is also that also already 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:01.240 exists in traditional video games, which is the idea of 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:05.560 or you could spend money and buy the sword and 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:09.000 skip the grind. So you know, there's there's an existing 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:12.880 dynamic of the haves and the have nots in traditional 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:15.360 video games. Are you saying that it's it's worse in 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.520 Crypto or that it's like more aggressive in some way? 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:21.240 I love this question because I think that a lot 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.120 of gamers feel that are attracted to video games because 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:27.920 of this egalitarian element where you know, everyone bought the game. 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:31.400 People you know, go in with various skill levels, but 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:34.880 you know, if you spend enough time trying to grind 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:37.680 for gold in World Warcraft, you're gonna get gold in 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.200 the World of Warcraft, regardless of how how good you 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:43.200 are at the actual fighting in the game a lot 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:45.640 of the time. Um Crypto is a little bit different 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:48.800 because you do need that initial financial buy in a 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:52.039 lot of the time. So while there are people who 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:55.680 play Axie Infinity who are able to grind their way 0:04:55.760 --> 0:05:00.440 into more and more valuable axes, people who start out 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:03.520 with a lot of money upfront do automatically have a 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:07.320 head start. But I think it's worth noting that people 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:11.480 have been purchasing high value assets and selling them inside 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:15.919 of video games for like a decade. So if that 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:18.000 is the case, and we we both know that to 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:21.400 be true, I will not confess which online video games 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:22.880 I may have spent too much time and I possibly 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:25.840 too much money and in a prior life, Why then 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:30.640 do we need things like blockchain based economies and games? 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:34.240 What are the arguments that these developers are making. There 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:38.560 are some really interesting arguments out there that, you know, 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:42.799 because micro transactions have become such a prominent business model 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.080 for video games, particularly ones where there's no initial buy 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:48.719 in free to play, you know, free to play exactly. 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:52.520 Players love these in game cosmetics. I too, am unwilling 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:56.520 to admit um what games I send what money in 0:05:56.520 --> 0:06:00.680 in this regard. But ultimately there's this argument that you know, 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:04.599 you don't really own your those cosmetics. You don't own 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.960 the really awesome dragon mount in, for example, of Final 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.279 Fantasy fourteen that you might have, for example, spent some 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:15.000 money on in this store. So if you know, Square Annex, 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:17.200 the publisher which one day say all right, we're done 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:20.200 here with this game, like your mount disappears even though 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:26.240 they spent fifteen dollars, which has happened. Yes, the idea 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:28.720 of the blockchain technology is that it would allow you 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:32.479 to own the assets somehow, and maybe you could even 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:35.279 transfer that asset into another game. So if you have 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:39.040 your cool dragon mountain Final Fantasy fourteen, maybe you could 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:41.599 play with it in World of Warcraft. I have also 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:46.320 seen some game developers, and particularly people who draw assets 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:48.680 for video games, pulling their hair out on Twitter over 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:52.400 this argument, because God, what a owerous thing to do 0:06:52.600 --> 0:07:01.239 to redraw everything. Let's just take a completely not related 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:03.760 to something I may have done in my own life example, 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.960 and let's say you had spent some large amount of 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:12.760 time building an extravagant apartment complex in you know, the 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:18.080 sims on desktop PC, and later in life you spent 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:22.480 some similarly extravagant amount of time customizing your island on 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:26.960 animal crossing on switch. In the idealized version of the 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:31.360 world pitched by these pro blockchain flu n f T developers, 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:33.240 I would be able to move to buy that real 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:36.560 estate and move it between games. Right, nothing should stop 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:38.480 me from being able to move these things between each 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:43.560 other In reality, those are totally different platforms, they're totally 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:48.280 different game publishers, they're totally different art styles, they're completely 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:53.480 different ecosystems. There's just no practical way that's possible. Yes, 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:58.520 And there is an argument that some gamers do you 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.040 want things that they work for in video games, since 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:06.440 they grind for to be redeemable for real life money, 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:09.560 and so I could sell my island, so you could 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:13.920 sell your island, And there is the argument that that 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:20.200 end is worth those complicated means I haven't seen, however, 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:25.200 a lot of gamers be particularly excited about that. There 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:28.360 have been big publishers who have launched initiatives along those 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:32.360 lines that have received um as. My colleague Jason Schryer 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:34.720 puts it more vitriol than anything he's seen in the 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.000 games industry since he started reporting on it, which is 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:43.080 a lot high. It's a very high bar. So here's 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:46.960 here's the thing about that. Though. If you do something 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:51.760 that is hard, labor intensive, time consuming, and then you 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:56.880 make money at the end, typically that is considered work. 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:02.959 And I played video games to be the opposite of work. 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:06.560 I don't want to monetize my video gaming because then 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:09.880 it becomes a job. And if I'm in an escapist 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:12.000 universe in which I'm spending dozens of hours on a 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.880 building houses, it's because I'm not trying to work. So 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:18.160 what is going on with this mechanic here where everything 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:22.040 is just becoming label? That's a really awesome thing to 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:25.760 bring up, you know. I think it's worth noting that 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:27.600 there are a lot of gamers out there who do 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.200 approach video games very seriously as if they were work. 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:32.960 When I go on a raid in Final Fantasy fourteen 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.640 and I'm with seven of my friends and we're trying 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:38.920 to be the same fight, you know, like eighty times, 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:48.960 that does require a kind of like work approach, but 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:51.480 it's for fun. I think you're right, and people really 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:57.000 do attach monetary compensation to the idea of labor. I 0:09:57.040 --> 0:10:01.360 think the bigger question here is don't do gamers want 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:04.200 to approach their games as if their jobs? Because I 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:08.600 think a lot of gamers really do. The bigger question 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:12.400 is do gamers want their games to look like capitalism? 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:17.000 There are in these block handing games and particularly Acts Affinity, 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:19.560 there have been these guilds that have sort of spawned 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:24.280 where players who have more resources and higher value axes 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:28.760 or assets are able to farm out the actual gameplay 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.200 of these games. Two players who don't have as many 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.600 monetary resources, particularly in countries like the Philippines that were 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:38.800 hit quite hard by the pandemic, and those players kind 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:44.400 of sharecropper style will increase the value of the richer 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:48.520 players assets by playing video games. And I think you 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:52.520 know that's a different kind of work relationship that is 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:55.480 exacerbated by the fact that do you think that this 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:57.640 is a fact that a lot of these blockchain based 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:00.240 games right now aren't very fun yet. We'll be right 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:02.679 back with more on video games from Bloomberg Report to 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:13.600 Cecilia Denistaso. I want to go back to something that 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.160 you said earlier about you know, folks who've been doing 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.760 this for a long time. So Second Life, which is 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:22.319 you know, much like much like Eve, one of the 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:26.960 very earliest online spaces. The folks who take Second Life 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:28.440 very seriously, and there are still a lot of them, 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:31.240 would argue it was never really a game. It was 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:37.480 much more metaversy than necessarily video gaming. But you interviewed 0:11:38.040 --> 0:11:40.480 there the executive chairman of Linden Labs, which is the 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:44.880 developer of Second Life, for the a Tech Summit hosted 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:48.160 by Bloomberg in San Francisco, and he was, you know, 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:52.960 less than convinced that blockchain and crypto had a role 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:55.720 not even justin video games, but also in the metaverse. 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.480 I'm just gonna play that clip really quickly, right. The 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:01.240 whole point of blockchain is that everybody knows everything. It's 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.320 a huge word document. Um So, if you if you 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.240 talk about an n f T and you put that 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:08.760 by definition and m T is on the blockchain, we've 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.760 got two point two billion items we transact. We can 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:15.240 transact in a one fifty a penny that does not 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.400 work on the blockchain. So, and the other thing about 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.840 blockchain is it is it dovetails with crypto, which um 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:24.240 we've talked in the past, which, as you know, I'll 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:26.880 use the word because I ask permission, is the apocalypse 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:33.400 and so um So, when I start thinking about metaverse, blockchain, crypto, 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:36.000 I see that as a future, but I think it's 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:38.640 as much of a risk as it is a positive. 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.120 I do want to just talk about that idea of 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:47.080 the metaverse a little bit more because when Microsoft announced 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:50.880 that it was going to try to buy Activision Blizzard, 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:53.160 one of the very first things that they said was like, 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:58.360 this is a big play on the metaverse, and you're like, how, like, 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:00.880 what is what is the relationship from your respective between 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:03.680 video games and the metaverse, even if you ignore n 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:06.920 f T s in crypto, that's a great question. So 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:09.480 we have seen articles for publications like the New York 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:13.000 Times that will refer to metaverse and virtual world kind 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:16.640 of interchangeably. There was, um notably, a New York Times 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.960 article in which two individuals got married in a so 0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:23.240 called metaverse. Never mind those individuals happened to work for 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:25.760 the company. It was a real estate company that created 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:29.600 that virtual world. Details it in details, you know. This 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.040 really great book by a venture capitalist named Mathew Ball 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:34.240 came out just called The Metaverse, and he has the 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:38.120 definition of like the most a metaverse is a persistent 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:43.120 virtual world that is connected to other virtual spaces, that 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:48.559 has an economy, and also is able to be kind 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:50.960 of immersed in in some way. So whether that's through 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:54.440 you know, operating an avatar, or maybe you're walking around 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:57.880 it in virtual reality. That's that's how he defines a metaverse. 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:00.720 And by that definition, there is no meta not yet. 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:05.280 Tech companies don't really aren't really making moves to kind 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.000 of partner with each other as equals, to kind of 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:13.920 hitch their different virtual spaces together. What we see more 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:17.000 of is, of course, consolidation, one big tech company kind 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:19.800 of absorbing a smaller one. Metaverse right now is a 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:22.360 way for a lot of tech companies to describe their 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:27.800 sprawl of digital and physical apps, hardware that they used 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:32.200 to construct their virtual spaces, and their technological products that 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:34.720 they sell. And I would be really excited to see 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.640 if that ends up advancing into a true metaverse at 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:42.280 any point in any future, hopefully not a dystopian one, 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:45.800 just as a as a closing thought, games that get 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:51.200 described as metaverses are often like Fortnite, which has you know, 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:53.800 the consumables and the cosmetics that you described. You can 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:55.800 buy skins, you can buy suits, you can buy cool stuff, 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:59.400 you can create spaces, you can have a persistent character 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:01.200 that represents to you, and then you could like party 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:06.200 and listen to real world DJs, um Minecraft, roadblocks, similar 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:09.280 sorts of things, and those are also often the games 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.120 that are held up as well. What if you could 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:14.000 take your Fortnite outfit or the things you made in 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.640 micraft or roadblocks and you know, import those into other places. 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:21.520 What I'm hearing from you is those might have metaverse 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:26.040 like elements, but they don't fully fit the description yet. 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:31.160 They're not like fully realized entities in that way. Absolutely, Actually, 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:34.000 Minecraft developers came out really recently to say that they 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:36.200 will not be allowing n f T s in in 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:39.040 that game at all. That is a metaverse element to it, 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:43.880 The connecting video games in virtual worlds through assets that 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:46.200 you can kind of share for them. I would be 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:48.960 more curious to see. And this is more of like 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:52.320 this is more of a vestige of a truer metaverse. 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:56.160 Whether people will be able to bring avatars across different 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.440 video game properties, that feels a little bit unlikely, just 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:03.880 considering the fact that everything from art styles to video 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:08.520 game engines that provide the kind of software infrastructure for 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:14.600 video games to exist aren't necessarily synonymous between these properties. 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:18.240 But you know, people really believe in this thing. True. 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.640 Great place to stop. Thank you so much, Celia, Thank 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:26.200 you for having me on the next episode of Bloomberg. 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:30.080 Crypto venture capitalists and certain people in the music industry 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:33.360 seem to be enthusiastic about the potential for autists to 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:36.560 benefit from crypto technologies like the blockchain and n f 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:41.600 t s, but there isn't universal agreement, especially among musicians themselves, 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:45.800 that any of this is necessarily a good idea. Bloomberg 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.480 Reporto Luca Shole will join me from Los Angeles as 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:53.480 we continue our discussion about the decentralization of the music industry. 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:59.440 This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:02.920 iHeart Deo. For more shows from I Heart Radio, visit 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:05.960 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:10.040 get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions or suggestions 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:13.080 for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net or 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:21.040 find us on Twitter. We're at Crypto. The supervising producer 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:24.680 of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky very Galina. Our senior producer 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:29.240 is Janet Babin. Our producer is Mohammed Farup. Our producer 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:33.440 is Sharon Burriro. Our associate producers or Zanam Sudiki, Thai 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:37.240 Buffalo and Moses and um Desta wonder At is our engineer. 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:44.160 Original music by Leo Sidrin. I'm Stacy Maria Schmo. We'll 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:44.920 be back tomorrow.