1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: In this episode of newts World. The two deadliest battles 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: of the Iraq War occurred in two thousand and four. 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: The Battle of Najaf was fought in the south against 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: the Shiait Mahdi militia. The Battle of Fallujah was fought 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: in the west against the Sunni insurgents. The Last six 6 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: hundred Meters tells the story of these battles, not through narration, 7 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: but through the words of those who fought there. I 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: want you to listen to a sample of the audio 9 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 1: of this new documentary by Michael Pack Foreign Policy. 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 2: I don't make it. I just delivered the last six 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 2: hundred meters of it. 12 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: The Last six hundred Meters The Battles of Najov and 13 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: Fallujah premieres on PBS on Monday, November tenth at ten 14 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: pm Eastern, nine pm Central, and it's absolutely worth watching. 15 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: I'm really pleased to welcome my guest and friend, Michael Pack. 16 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: He is an award winning documentary filmmaker, president of Manifold 17 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 1: Productions and has produced over fifteen documentaries for public television, 18 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: including Created Equal Clarence Thomas and his own Words. Michael, 19 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: Welcome and thank you for joining me again on newtsur. 20 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me back, Newts pleasure to be here. 21 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 1: The PBS premiere of the Last six hundred Meters is 22 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: on Monday, November tenth, at ten pm Eastern, significantly the 23 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: day before Veterans Day. Can you start by telling us 24 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: what this film is about and why you chose to 25 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: focus on these two battles from the Iraq War, Najaff 26 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: and Fallujah. 27 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's not only the day before Veterans Day, it's 28 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 2: the two hundred and fiftieth day of the Marine Corps 29 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 2: and these are mainly, but not exclusively, marine battles. It's 30 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 2: called the Last six hundred Meters because a sniper in 31 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 2: the film says, I don't make foreign policy, I deliver 32 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 2: the last six hundred meters of it, meaning what he 33 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 2: could see through a sniperscope. And that's the purpose of 34 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 2: the film, to tell these battle stories from the point 35 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 2: of view of those on the ground, not to go 36 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 2: into the politics and policy or should we not have 37 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 2: been in the war? I have my opinions and know 38 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 2: for a fact you do. But this film is really 39 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 2: about what it's like in the battles, ground truth that 40 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 2: we like to say, there is no narration. We just 41 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 2: hear directly from participants in the battles, from corporals and 42 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 2: sergeants to sort of one star generals who are in 43 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,080 Speaker 2: the field, and we've organized the film is We got 44 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 2: the footage first of the most exciting, relevant parts of 45 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 2: the battles and then found the people in them. So 46 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 2: people are talking about what they see. And I should 47 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 2: point out that we've conducted the interviews in two thousand 48 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 2: and six and seven and these people were still young. 49 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 2: They were still the same age, and the footage their 50 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 2: memories were fresh, and it simply took a long time 51 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 2: to get to broadcast on PBS. We had originally focused 52 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 2: on technology and warfare, which as you know, was a 53 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 2: big part of the beginning of the Afghan War with 54 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 2: the Northern Alliance, our horses and our special forces helping 55 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 2: them in close air support. But as I work on 56 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 2: the project back in two thousand and six, seven and eight, 57 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 2: when the Iraq War was still going on, I saw 58 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 2: that these were stories of big battles, and they were 59 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 2: although technology was important, they were not technology depended. They 60 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 2: were live a lot on the heroism courage of the 61 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 2: young men and women fighting there, and I saw those 62 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:43,119 Speaker 2: stories weren't being told. Everyone was ameshed in the political discussion, 63 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: and I wanted to tell those stories. So that's what 64 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 2: we did. And I'm pleased that now, you know, many 65 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 2: years later, it's finally being broadcast in this very important 66 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 2: slot as PBS's key documentary going in to Veteran's Day. 67 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 2: I want to say, if you miss it, you can 68 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 2: see it on Prime starting on veterans, Amazon Prime and 69 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: other streaming services. But it took so long because initially, 70 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 2: when we submitted it to PBS a version in two 71 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 2: thousand and eight, they felt it was too pro military. 72 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 2: They said, whatever that really means, which it isn't. I mean, 73 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 2: whatever that means, I don't think it is. And then 74 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 2: they wanted me to add those political stuff that we 75 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 2: consciously took out, and every few years we begged them 76 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 2: to put it on the air, and then Justice last year, 77 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 2: the president of PBS, Paul Kerger, who I know, you know, 78 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 2: I think, courageously reversed these seventeen years of other decisions, 79 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 2: saw it with fresh eyes, saw that it was a 80 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 2: good film, which no one has ever denied about it, 81 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: and took the decision to put it on the air 82 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: and in this prominent position, so I'm grateful for that. 83 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: You're dealing with young men and women who have been 84 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: through a tremendously difficult experience, and many of them really 85 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: are cautious about going back psychologically and revisiting what they 86 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: had lived through. How do you, as a filmmaker and 87 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: a storyteller, how do you get them to open up 88 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 1: and talk on camera? 89 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 2: It takes a long time. It's really part of the 90 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 2: work of these films. You're right, they don't usually like 91 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: to talk about these things, and you end up having 92 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: to spend a lot of time with them before you 93 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 2: start filming. I like to say each film has its 94 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 2: definitive kind of foods. So with these young marines, the 95 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 2: corporals and sergeants, it was a lot of pizza with 96 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 2: meat on it and beer that you had to eat 97 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 2: and drink over a lot of time to get them 98 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 2: to agree to open up, and I'm honored that a 99 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 2: large number of them did. We recently had a screening 100 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 2: in Washington where a lot of these veterans came, and 101 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 2: a lot of them now want to show it to 102 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 2: their wives and their children and their family because they 103 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 2: still can't talk about it and it's a way now 104 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 2: of talking about it to them. I'm honored they gave 105 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 2: us the benefit of their stories and that we could 106 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 2: tell them, and now we have preserved them for all time. 107 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 2: I mean, I think it'll be just as relevant ten 108 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 2: years from now. And as you know, it's important to 109 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 2: tell these battle stories that you have spent a lot 110 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 2: of time right now at Gettysburg. But we need to 111 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 2: tell these stories Gettysburg or Ewa Jaima, the great battles 112 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 2: that have defined America. And in the case of Fallusion 113 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 2: and Jaff, this is a kind of warfare that the 114 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 2: world is still engaged in in Ukraine and in Gaza. 115 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: Najaff is a fairly limited battle. About thirty US troops 116 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: are killed. The estamates are that the Mahdi Army may 117 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: have lost as many as fifteen hundred. Fallujah was a 118 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: real problem because we went in first in April and 119 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: May of two thousand and four and basically failed to 120 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: get total control of the city. At the end of 121 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: that fight, insurgents still had large control of the city. 122 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: When we back in the second time, which was in 123 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: November and December two thousand and four, we had built 124 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 1: up overwhelming power and it was still one of the 125 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,799 Speaker 1: bloodiest battles of the war. We had ninety five people 126 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: killed in four hundred and fifty wounded, and we killed 127 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: over twenty one hundred insurgeons. You're describing what was a very, 128 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: very difficult fight. What led you to pick those two battles? 129 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 2: You describe it well. I mean this arc of time 130 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 2: from the first Battle of Fallujah of March April two 131 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 2: thousand and four through November the second battle really encapsulates 132 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 2: a lot of the challenges of this kind of warfare 133 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 2: against As you said in the introduction, Sooni's as well 134 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 2: as Shia, and each of them have a complex political situation. 135 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 2: Now we don't talk about whether politics are good or bad, 136 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 2: but you see it to impact on the marines and 137 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,679 Speaker 2: soldiers in the field. As you said, the first Battle 138 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 2: of Fallujah, which started because four Blackwater contractors were murdered, burned, 139 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 2: dragged through the city of Fallujah and two of their 140 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 2: charred bodies were hung from a bridge while Iraqis and 141 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 2: children celebrated and asked under the bodies. And it's how 142 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 2: horrified people that the order was to clear that city 143 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 2: and the marines clearing the city al Jazeera and others 144 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 2: were able to spin it and make it look out 145 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 2: of proportion and violent, to the point where the Iraqi 146 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 2: government pressured the US to stop, as you said earlier, 147 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: and pull out and hand Fallujah essentially over the insurgents 148 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 2: to run as their own fiefdom until the Second Battle 149 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: of Fallujah. But even though that battle feels inconclusive, it's 150 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 2: very inconclusiveness is emblematic of a certain aspect of this 151 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 2: war and this kind of battle where you can't just 152 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 2: clear the city as you would want to, as the 153 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 2: marine said, and we don't talk about why that decision 154 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 2: was made, but what is it how the people felt, 155 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 2: As one of the people you interviews said, well, now 156 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 2: we're dealing with these people. We're making a deal to 157 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 2: give them Fallujah. Yesterday we were killing each other. Now 158 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 2: we're negotiating with them. And as he said, but what's 159 00:08:54,720 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 2: a few RPGs between Frances a very sarcastic bitter by 160 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 2: a great and heroic marine. But you get a feeling 161 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 2: of what it's like to be pulled one way or another. 162 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: And it was very similar in the jaff A very 163 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 2: significant battle in the sense that it's a holy city 164 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 2: of Shia Islam, and it focused on the Imam Ali Shrine. 165 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 2: They're one of Shia Islam's holy sites. So you can 166 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:23,359 Speaker 2: see the politics of the Shia part of Iraq affecting 167 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 2: the troops and Iraq is I think seventy percent Shia, 168 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 2: so it's pretty significant. So the arc of the battles 169 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 2: gives you a good picture. And the Battle of Na 170 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: Jeff was much more of a combined arms battle with 171 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 2: armie and marine. So looking at all three enable us 172 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 2: to give a feel for three different variations on urban 173 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 2: warfare counterinsurgency. It's problems politically in that sense and on 174 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 2: the ground for the soldiers and marines that were fighting it, 175 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 2: and I think a very clear picture emerges of what 176 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 2: this kind of warfare is like. And I think the 177 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 2: most close modern contemporary analogy is Israel fighting in Gaza, 178 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 2: where Hamasius is a lot of the same techniques that 179 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: the insurgents did in Iraq, hiding behind civilians, making hospitals 180 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 2: your headquarters, sheltering and mosques they can't be bombed, etc. 181 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 2: So it remains relevant in terms of contemporary warfare, but 182 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 2: it's important to understand it historically too. 183 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 1: Since you are going to show this the evening before 184 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: Veterans Day. What does it tell you about how important 185 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: our veterans are and what they go through to serve 186 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: the country. 187 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,719 Speaker 2: It's incredible what we ask them to do. One of 188 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 2: the people we enterviewed Seth Moulton, now a Democratic Congressman 189 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 2: from Massachusetts, then a lieutenant the Marine Corps in Nijath. 190 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 2: Someone in his platoon, he tells the story, is underneath 191 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: a hotel, underground, no air support, and the room is 192 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 2: so close that neither he nor the assertion can give 193 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 2: their rifle outs. So they both pull their bayonets and 194 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 2: it's a knife fight until the US Marine stabs the 195 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 2: insurgent in the eye and kills them. It's a brutal 196 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 2: hand to hand combat. It could have been one hundred 197 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 2: years ago, and we ask them to show this kind 198 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 2: of courage and grit, and there are many instances of 199 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 2: that in the film. And one of the reasons I 200 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 2: am happy that it's playing before Veterans Day because I 201 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: really think Iraqi war veterans have not quite gotten their due, 202 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 2: and the Afghan veterans as well. People don't like that war, 203 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 2: a lot of them. People have mix feelings about it. 204 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 2: People would rather forget it, but that doesn't change the 205 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 2: heroism of the young men and women over there, and 206 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: we do need to celebrate that in Veterans Day. And 207 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 2: I think what veterans want. I mean, there's a bit 208 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 2: focus on Iraqi war veterans on PTSD and to culties 209 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 2: coming home, and that's all important, but I think what 210 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 2: veterans want is for us to understand what they did, 211 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 2: to look at their deeds and celebrate them, not just 212 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 2: to look at their troubles and struggles. I hope my 213 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 2: film contributes to that. 214 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: Having immersed yourself in this what's difference you since between 215 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: the wars it was actually happening and the wars it 216 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: was being experienced by Americans at home in the US. 217 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 2: Well, I think of that. I mean, one of the 218 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: things was the sort of media spin on these wars. 219 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 2: You know, they dominate, and I think you lose a 220 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 2: sense of the reality. And there was such a big 221 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 2: emphasis on things which it makes sense, likedthaed Abu Grabe, 222 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 2: and that way it got covered I think contributed to 223 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: the sense that these veterans are not honorable and that 224 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 2: has been a horrible thing. So that gap between how 225 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: the media. US media covered it and what it was 226 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 2: like on the ground I think was sad and now 227 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 2: maybe a few years have gone by for us to 228 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 2: look back on reality what happened in a more dispassionate way. 229 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: You have shown this and one top honors at the 230 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: GI Film Festival in Washington in the Hudson Institute Film Festival, 231 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: New York. What kind of response did you get from 232 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: the audiences, especially from the veterans and their families. 233 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 2: Response has been overwhelmingly positive. When we showed it very 234 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 2: recently in Washington with these veterans and their families and 235 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 2: we had the veterans on stage, it was like, you know, 236 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 2: a kind of chance for veterans to air their feelings 237 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 2: and thoughts. It was very much you know, the film 238 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 2: sort of released a lot of buried emotions. I mean 239 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 2: they want to go on and talk for hours about 240 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 2: the film, but also about things ancelerity of the film. 241 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 2: We also had a small grant at one point to 242 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 2: show it a military basis around the country and military 243 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 2: people were incredibly positive, including senior military people. I mean 244 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 2: General Maddis call it classic a way to understand grad 245 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 2: truth without politics, and as did many other Marie General's 246 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 2: Kelly and Dunford, as well as younger Murray's, whatever their 247 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 2: different views of the war and their politics, I think 248 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 2: gave me a feeling that we did capture something authentic 249 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 2: and moving. I did make the film for those of 250 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 2: us that are not veterans, that may not even know 251 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 2: any veterans, to sort of better understand what they did there. 252 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: The way this film evolved, you go out, you do 253 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of work, You find people, you interview them, 254 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: you put together a remarkable film, and then it sits 255 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: there for what seventeen years? 256 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, seventeen years. 257 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: How do you deal with that level of frustration? 258 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 2: Well, as you know, I've made over fifteen films that 259 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 2: have all been naturally broadcast on PBS. You mentioned the 260 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: last one created equal Clarence Thomas, in his own words, 261 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: still streaming Amazon and elsewhere. This is the only one 262 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 2: that's had that experience, and it always tugged at me. 263 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 2: I mean, I promised all the people in it it 264 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 2: would be nationally broadcast and it would get a big reception, 265 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 2: and you know, I didn't really manage to do it, 266 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: And I mean I begged PBS a year after year. 267 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 2: It was pretty upsetting. I will say that the Marines 268 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 2: at that screening did say that I was like a 269 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 2: marine in my persistence to achieve the objective at all 270 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 2: costs and not let up. 271 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: Was there a contractual reason you couldn't have taken it 272 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: somewhere else? 273 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 2: I could have taken it somewhere else. The principal funder 274 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 2: was the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. I mean it felt 275 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 2: like it should have been on PBS. I could have, 276 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 2: you know, maybe I should have, but I wanted it 277 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 2: on PBS. They put up the money. It felt right 278 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 2: and it's a remarkable thing. I also thought I was 279 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 2: going to have to update it a lot more, but 280 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 2: I hardly did because we preserved a moment, the moment 281 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 2: around the battle. At any attempt updated and impose the 282 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: views of twenty twenty five, and it felt like it 283 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 2: would make it dated. So I feel it holds up 284 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: and I'm proud that it is out there now. It 285 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: was something that bothered me for seventeen years and now 286 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 2: I'm happy about it. So you don't get that too 287 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 2: often in life. 288 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: What are you currently working on? 289 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 2: Well, we have a new company, Palladium Pictures, and people 290 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 2: can find out about that one at Palladium Pictures dot 291 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 2: com and our older films at Menifold Productions dot com. 292 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 2: So Palladium does two things. It does long form documentaries 293 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 2: like the last six hentimeters. We are doing short documentaries 294 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 2: in partnership with the Wall Street Journal Opinion section two 295 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 2: of them already available and not behind a paywall at 296 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 2: WSJ dot com slash Opinion Docs. We have three in 297 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: development on a variety of subjects, including withdrawal from Afghanistan 298 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 2: or other military subject but also COVID skeptics like Jay 299 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: Badicharia and the Canadian trucker convoy during COVID. And then 300 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 2: we have an incubator program run by my son Thomas, 301 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 2: whom you know, to try to train young he likes 302 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 2: to say non woke or maybe right of center filmmakers 303 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 2: who are at least out of the mainstream and who 304 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 2: have made a few short films and want to really 305 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 2: expand their skill level. And we pay for the film. 306 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 2: We give them a full budget, and we oversee it 307 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 2: and help distribute it. And we're in our third class. 308 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 2: You can apply now at Ladyopictures dot com. And we 309 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 2: feel strongly that you know, even though I have lots 310 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 2: of friends who are left of center progressive documentary filmmakers 311 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 2: who also make great films, because are really imbalanced in 312 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 2: the documentary world, especially in this sort of storytelling documentary, 313 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 2: not just sort of ones that are preaching to the 314 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,160 Speaker 2: choir on the left of the right. The mainstream ones 315 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 2: are dominated by people who really have a progressive agenda. 316 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 2: And although Netflix and Amazon and others say they have 317 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 2: like thirty percent nonfiction films and a significant percentage of 318 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 2: those have a political twist, they're all on one side. 319 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 2: And part of the reason is we need on the 320 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 2: conservative side, need to develop our talent the way the 321 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 2: people on the left are done for many decades. So 322 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,719 Speaker 2: we are making a start at it. And I'm very 323 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: proud of the Softwar eight filmmakers who've gone through it, 324 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 2: and I helped to build a community. 325 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: Not to put you on the spot, but how many 326 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: years have you been making films? 327 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: Well, my wife hates me to say this, but I 328 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 2: would say I started my company in nineteen seventy seven, 329 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 2: right out of college, and my first major PBS documentary 330 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 2: was nineteen eighty seven. It was called Hollywood's Favorite heavy 331 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 2: about how business and businessmen are portrayed on TV the 332 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,880 Speaker 2: era of Dallas and Dynasty. But we went to Holly. 333 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 2: I went to see why Hollywood writers and producers what 334 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 2: made businessman villains? Do they hate businessmen? Do they hate capitalism? 335 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,479 Speaker 2: Do they know anything about capitalism? And so it's an 336 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 2: amusing film about it. Issue is still there, you know, 337 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 2: still if your evil corporation is still behind every dystopian 338 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 2: sci fi movie. And that was eighty seven, so it's 339 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 2: been many decades. 340 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: The reason I ask you that is, given all of 341 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: the technological changes we're living through, how much different is 342 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: the process of producing film today, and how much greater, 343 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: for example, for young new directors learning the trade, how 344 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: much greater is their ability to do things less expensively 345 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 1: but more creatively, more conveniently. Just because the technology has 346 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: changed so dramatically. 347 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 2: I think the cost so lower. So we give our 348 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 2: incubator program thirty five thousand dollars to these filmmakers to 349 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,479 Speaker 2: make a fifteen minute film. You couldn't have done that 350 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 2: back in nineteen eighty seven. We're shooting sixteen millimeter film, 351 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 2: expensive to buy, expensive to develop, expensive to edit. But 352 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 2: on the other hand, you know a lot of this 353 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 2: sort of AI animation. I mean you could do more, 354 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 2: and then it's also more expensive, so you can go 355 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 2: up the chain. The high end documentaries like the Less 356 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,719 Speaker 2: six hundred meters or Created equal. The price is in 357 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 2: some ways the same, even way up given inflation, but 358 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 2: the production value has gone up with it. But a 359 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 2: key thing really in this incubator program too, is really 360 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 2: storytelling technique hasn't changed, and people there isn't a way 361 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 2: to short circuit that. So there's a tendency in our 362 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 2: incubator fellows whose experience has been perhaps to make films 363 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 2: for conservative groups like AI or Heritage, to shortcut the 364 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 2: process by just interviewing a bunch of experts to tell 365 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 2: the audience what to think. And although I have a 366 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 2: huge number of friends who are experts who tell me 367 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,120 Speaker 2: what to think all the time, that's not telling the story. 368 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: You know. 369 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,679 Speaker 2: The lesser centermeters has a few comments by historians, but 370 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 2: it's ninety percent of these guys in the field telling 371 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 2: their story, and that's what viewers want to hear, you know, 372 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 2: other things, Fox, MSNBC, whatever. People tell you what to 373 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 2: think all the time, and as much of that as 374 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 2: you want. The business of documentaries is to get first 375 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 2: person stories, and that's its skill. It goes back to 376 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 2: what you asked earlier. Just getting them to tell their story. 377 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 2: I had to spend a lot of time with them. 378 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 2: There was no high tech way to do that. You know, 379 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 2: as I say, a lot of pizza and beer. I 380 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 2: couldn't eat electronic pizza and beer. I had to eat 381 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 2: the real thing. You had to spend time. They had 382 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 2: to trust you and attempt to short circuit that that 383 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 2: people read right away as a betrayal of trust. 384 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: To tell stories. The way you tell stories is very 385 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: time consuming. You know. You really have to slow down 386 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,959 Speaker 1: to the pace of humans and draw out of them 387 00:21:54,320 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: and maybe do a two hour conversation to get four minute. 388 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 2: It's very time consuming. For instance, these Wall Street Journal 389 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 2: films that we're doing right now, they're like thirty to 390 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 2: forty minutes, and we conduct six to eight interviews that 391 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 2: are two hours long. People are always saying, well, why 392 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 2: do you just shoot the four minutes you need? But 393 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 2: you can't really do that. You have to walk everybody 394 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 2: through the story and figure out who has the crucial 395 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 2: moment and how does it play off the other person. 396 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 2: It is a huge amount of time. It's a lot 397 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 2: of work by the editor and editors and documentaries deserve 398 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 2: more credit than they often get, and they editor less 399 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: extre meters. Joe Eidemeyer, for instance, did a great job. 400 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 2: And you work closely with the terview. You spend a 401 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 2: lot of time in the editing room trying this, trying that, trying, 402 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 2: as you say, one bunch of four or five minutes 403 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 2: from somebody and then a whole other different one until 404 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 2: you can get it a work. It takes a lot 405 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 2: of time, and that's another thing. Technology helps a little bit. 406 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 2: You know, you can get transcripts quickly through AI, but 407 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 2: the trial and error and the figuring it out is 408 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,239 Speaker 2: in way back to the same at tech it always was. 409 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 2: Maybe in that way, it's like the last six hundred 410 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 2: meters combination of high tech like specter gunships and guys 411 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 2: with knife fights. 412 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: Jim Madis is an old friend of mine, and you know, 413 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 1: I think he deeply personifies the whole Marine Corps sense 414 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: that in the end, and this is totally appropriate in 415 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: terms of their two hundred and fifteenth birthday, we just 416 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 1: said the Marine Corps BO. You have all those young guys, 417 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 1: but they are young guys who represent two hundred and 418 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: fifty years, and it takes a long time to build 419 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: the kind of a spree de corps and commitment that 420 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: is sort of typical of the Marine Corps. 421 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 2: It really does. People always say, well, who needs the 422 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 2: Marine Corps? It's not logical. They're not on ships, you know, 423 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 2: like they were in the eighteenth century. Why can't they 424 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 2: just be followed into another service? And if you are 425 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 2: just looking at it logically, that makes sense, But then 426 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 2: you would get rid of this incredible institution with incredible strengths. 427 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 2: They give America huge war fighting capability just because of 428 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,440 Speaker 2: what you said, it because of the tradition. And there 429 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 2: is no marine that isn't conscious of the two hundred 430 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 2: and fifty year tradition. You know, a lot of Americans 431 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 2: are not conscious of their history, but that is not 432 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 2: true in the US Marine Corps. 433 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 1: I think in that sense, the last six hundred meters 434 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 1: is not an important story about battles, but it's an 435 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 1: important story about an American institution that is unique and 436 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 1: that all of us can be proud of. And that 437 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: coming up on the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of 438 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: the Family of the Corps earlier than the decreation independence. 439 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: It's a remarkable thing, and I think that what you've 440 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: done is a real contribution to America and to understanding 441 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: what it takes for America to be successful. 442 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Nut. That's high praise coming from you, 443 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 2: a historian and a knowledgeable filmmaker, both as well as 444 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 2: all your other qualities. 445 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: Well, we've been friends for a long long time. I 446 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: want to thank thank you for joining me. You're a film. 447 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: The Last six hundred Meters The Battles of Najaff and 448 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 1: Fallujah premieres on PBS and Monday, November tenth at ten 449 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: pm Eastern, nine pm Central, and will be available at 450 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: PBS dot org and the PBS app. Now we're going 451 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: to have a trailer from the film. 452 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,360 Speaker 3: It was almost as though there was a boogeyman out there. 453 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 3: We were facing a lot more enemy than we had 454 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 3: the capability to deal with. Doug trenches, they fortified houses, 455 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 3: they were ready. 456 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 2: We wanted to go. 457 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 3: We were just waiting on the edge of a knife. 458 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 2: When are we going to get to go? The order 459 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 2: is seize the city. 460 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 3: RPGs, small arms fire from everywhere. 461 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,640 Speaker 2: Come. I told him that I wanted to go, and 462 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 2: he he looked at me and said, sorry, you're going 463 00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 2: to die. The destructions. It's just horrible. 464 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 3: The hardest thing about fighting this enemy is they're not 465 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 3: afraid to die. They're not afraid to die. Then how 466 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 3: do you fight him? 467 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,479 Speaker 2: Wrapped one down, be prepared to start at one end 468 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 2: of the city and fight your way through to the 469 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 2: other end. There's firing going on, their grenades being thrown 470 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 2: in the house. 471 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: Became a hand to hand fighting. 472 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 3: It was so close. 473 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 2: Two selfless marines run across this kill zone four times 474 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 2: to pull marines out of there. 475 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,479 Speaker 3: I wasn't worried about, you know, getting shot or getting wounded. 476 00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 2: I was worried about the guys to my left and right. 477 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,920 Speaker 1: You always want to reassure these men that they've done 478 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: their duty, because. 479 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 2: That memory is seared into their soul. 480 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: They never forget it. 481 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 2: None of us do. 482 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 3: Foreign policy. I don't make it. 483 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 2: I just deliver the last six hundred meters of it. 484 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Michael Peck. Newsworld is produced 485 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 1: by Ganglish, Sweet sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is 486 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,159 Speaker 1: Guarnsey Sloman. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for 487 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 1: the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to 488 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: the team at Ganglis Sweet sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, 489 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to up a podcast and both 490 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: rate us with five stars and give us a review 491 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: so others can learn what it's all about. Join me 492 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: on substat at gingrish three sixty dot net. I'm new Gingriish. 493 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: This is neutral