1 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: Ah beaute force. If it doesn't work, you're just not 2 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: using enough. You're listening to Software Radio, Special Operations, Military 3 00:00:25,520 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: News and straight talk with the guys and the community 4 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: soft Rep Radio on Time on Target, episode four hundred 5 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: and sixty five. That's Jack Murphy on Dennis Jones. Welcome 6 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: to the program. Lots unpacked to open up. So I'm 7 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 1: just gonna step out of your way. I'm gonna let 8 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: you lay this all out for you. Uh, short and sweet, 9 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: it's back to Eddie Gallagher. Yeah, this was the story 10 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: I was talking about a few episodes ago that you know, 11 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: I was going to get published sooner or later. Um. 12 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: I had not really planned on breaking any news on 13 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: this story because there had been just so much reporting 14 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: on it by others, I mean, and and by others, 15 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: I mean everybody you know, New York Times, Navy Times, uh, 16 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: Military Times, CNN, Fox, I mean, tons and tons of 17 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: reporting on this case. So when I see that, I think, Wow, 18 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: there's really no need for me to you know, jump 19 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: in there. Um, and there's probably not even anything new 20 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: for for me to report, considering all these other journalists 21 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: and so on that are that are working on this stuff. 22 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: But then I had a story kind of come to 23 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: me in a way, and I started developing it and 24 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: it turned into a story that could actually be published. Um, 25 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: the story came to me from sources within the special 26 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: forces community and they told me the story about how 27 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: they were on a operation in two thousand and ten. 28 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 1: It was Marja, Afghanistan. There's a huge clearing operation. It 29 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: was a big deal in the press at the time 30 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: and obviously a big deal for the military as well 31 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: that they were clearing through this insurgent stronghold in Afghanistan. 32 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: It was considered the insurgent capital at the time. Uh 33 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: and A Special Forces o d A, a Special Forces 34 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 1: team from third Special Forces Group, was working with the 35 00:02:55,400 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: Kandak Commandos, who are Afghanistan's National counter Terrors Force. They 36 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: are like they're they're kind of like their version of 37 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: Tier one, their premier counter terrorism team, and Afghanistan, the 38 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: Government of Afghanistan, will deploy Kandak and their Special Forces 39 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: advisors with them wherever they're needed around the the country. 40 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: You know, they're kind of like, you know, uh, they 41 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: could be a quick reaction force. They can go, they 42 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: can go put out fires wherever they need to do that. 43 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: So they are down there, of course, for this big 44 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: operation down in Marjah. They leave Camp Morehead, they go 45 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: down to Camp Bastion and stage out of their where 46 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: the special Forces piece of that mission is being run 47 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: out of the ao B at that camp. It's the 48 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: ao B is the Advanced Operating Base and that's where 49 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: all the you know, staff officers are. It's one of 50 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: the logistical hub is that they're going to run the 51 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: whole operation. So attached to the O d A that's 52 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: going out to hit a objective um the objective is Thunderdome. 53 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: They have an attachment to them. And because the O 54 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: d A s are working on these big, large scale 55 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: operations with the Afghans, they sometimes get attachments who are 56 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: basically there to help them out and UH in this 57 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: case it was a Navy seal a Seal sniper and 58 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 1: they told me that it was Eddie Gallagher on this 59 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: operation with them. So the UH joint Afghan American force 60 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: they push up to this road intersection which is objective 61 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: Thunderdome and they capture a house there that they're going 62 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: to use as kind of their staging ground out in 63 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: the field for the for this operation. So they come 64 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: in and capture this area. UM. And uh, Chief Gallagher 65 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: I'm told was up on the roof with other special 66 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: Forces members and there's a lot of Afghan National Army 67 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: and A guys driving down the road through this road 68 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: intersection to participate in the operation. And they said, uh 69 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 1: that Chief Gallagher popped off a shot at the A 70 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: N A and one one round actually went through the 71 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 1: rear window of a highlucks and embedded in the dashboard. 72 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: Which not a great start now, um. And then throughout 73 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: the that that day and and into the next morning, 74 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: there was a farmer nearby. It was kind of an 75 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: middle aged guy. And whenever there was a law in 76 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: the firefight, whenever there's a law and fighting, this farmer 77 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: would come out with his hoe and he'd start working 78 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: his land, farming, farming, waits for no man war be damn. Yeah, 79 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: another another day in Afghanistan. And the interpreter UH for 80 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: the team kept telling this this civilian like, go back inside, 81 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: it's not safe out here, of course not. And he'd 82 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: keep coming back out anytime there was a law on fire. 83 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 1: According to my sources, UM. And so then you have 84 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: the thing with the an A that night. The next 85 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: morning comes and the O d A is there. They 86 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 1: are waiting for the Marines to come in and backfill 87 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: the areas that they had cleared with the Afghans, and 88 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: then the ODER and the Candy commandos will move forward 89 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,359 Speaker 1: and capture the next village and so on and so forth. 90 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: So they are waiting up there, um and it was 91 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: at that point that they hear a shot taken, and 92 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: there's actually another O d A member up on the 93 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: roof who saw this unfold and witnessed, allegedly Eddie Gallagher 94 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: shoot and killed this unarmed farmer, and Gallagher was then 95 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: reported to have been bragging about having shot the unarmed farmer. 96 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: The team waits up on the rooftop. The team, I 97 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 1: shouldn't mention, is split in half, so a special forces 98 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: team is twelve guys. So there's six guys up on 99 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: the roof of this building and then there's twelve or 100 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, there's the other six guys are inside a 101 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: adjacent building. So when nightfall comes, the guys who are 102 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: up on the rooftop egress to the other building to 103 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: bring together the team. And at that point the odi 104 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 1: A members that were on the roof said, hey, this 105 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: seal sniper is doing crazy stuff and reported what he did, 106 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: and the leadership on the team, the the team warrant 107 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: officer and captain came to the agreement that this seal 108 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: needs to be off our mission, so they sent him 109 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: back to the rear. UM. There's a resupply helicopter coming 110 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: in that night. They say, hey, when you come in 111 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: and bringing this resupply, there's gonna be one packs going 112 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: out with you. UM, but they don't report over the 113 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: radio what's exactly why. No, I can understand that. Knowing 114 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: what's what could the UM. So the seal gets put 115 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: on the helicopter taken back to Camp Bastian the ao B, 116 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: and what I was told was that Chief Gallagher continued 117 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: bragging about killing this farmer and at one point the 118 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: ao B Canmander overheard this and pulled Chief Gallagher aside 119 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: to speak to him. And after that, whatever that conversation was, 120 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: I don't know. I wasn't My sources didn't know. He 121 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: was then put on a plane and sent away. And 122 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: so this was came to me from sources and special forces. 123 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: What I was also able to obtain was a U 124 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: n c I S document the two thousand and eight 125 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: and c i S investigation into Chief Gallagher. What that 126 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: document shows is a seal sniper who I won't name yet. 127 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: I'm sure his name will almost certainly come out during 128 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: the trial, which is gonna start Monday, but I agreed 129 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: to withhold his name for now. Um. He was a 130 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: seal sniper and he reported to the n c i 131 00:08:53,400 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: S investigators that UM that Eddie Gallagher told him that 132 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: he had killed an unarmed farmer during a mission in Afghanistan. 133 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: So now it seems that you have multiple sources here 134 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: that are telling the same story. Um. In order to 135 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: do my diligence on this story, I have to reach 136 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: out to the other side. It's the responsible thing to do. 137 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: So I contacted Chief Gallagher's defense attorney, Timothy parlatorre Uh, 138 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: and I talked to him on the phone. We had 139 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: a conversation and UM and Chief Gallagher's defense attorney said, 140 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: the story is totally made up, totally fictional, never happened. Um. 141 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: He he confirmed that Gallagher was in Afghanistan at that time, 142 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: but said that he was not on this particular operation. 143 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: Now that's fact checkable, right, Like, there's got to be 144 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: some kind of documentation that would not necessarily that he 145 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:56,959 Speaker 1: that he allegedly shot the farmer, But wouldn't somebody on 146 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: a manifest somewhere on a kana somewhere it is. I mean, 147 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: with some more digging, some FOI requests, you could probably 148 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: turn up those documents and confirm or deny whether or 149 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: not he was present on that operation. Which is a 150 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: crazy move for the defense attorney to uh claim that 151 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 1: if if it's that if like, I feel like it's 152 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: not the hard I mean, it's not the easiest of digging. 153 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: But if you look into it, they're gonna find an 154 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: answer one way or another at some point, whether whether 155 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 1: he was there or not, and the other guys who 156 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: were on the team in the A O B. But 157 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 1: as a reporter, I have to keep an open mind. 158 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: Of course, perhaps perhaps this is a case of mistaken identity, 159 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: Perhaps something is completely wrong here. Um, But there's enough, 160 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: there was enough sourcing that this was something that um 161 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: had to be reported. UM. You know, I think it 162 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: was the responsible thing to do was to report it, 163 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: but also to report you know, the other side of it, 164 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 1: what the defense attorney had to say. UM. So I 165 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: published his comment as well, uh saying, you know, the 166 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: stories entire really made up. UM. And as I've said 167 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: in the past, is it possible Chief Gallagher is innocent, um, 168 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: that he's gonna go He's going to trial on Monday 169 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: for the alleged murder in Missoul, Iraq. Maybe he's going 170 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: to be exonerated to that. Maybe he's going to be 171 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: exonerated from this incident, that this alleged incident in Afghanistan 172 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: as well. And I have to keep an open mind 173 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: to hearing out both sides of the story, UM as 174 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: I do this reporting. UM. But it's certainly interesting. UM. 175 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: Another thing that I did want to mention because I 176 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: think the the reporting can easily become muddled by all 177 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: the different people out there trying to weigh in on it. 178 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: There was also a report, and this came out in 179 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: some of the n c i S documents also of 180 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: a Special Forces warrant officer. He got arrested, apparently for 181 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: child pornography, and while he was being interrogated, he threw 182 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: out to the interrogators like, oh yeah, I also know 183 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: about this murder. I also know about this seal that 184 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: committed a murder in Afghanistan. But when they when the 185 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: investigators pressed him, he said the seal on the mission 186 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: was like six three and Gallagher, I think it's like 187 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: five eight. But there's a pretty big discrepancy. Um, So 188 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: there's all sorts of things that did not line up 189 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: with this warrant officer. So I did a little bit 190 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: of digging on this. The warrant officer was not out 191 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: on the operation, whoever, whoever, this guy, I won't name 192 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: him either, it's all other can of worms. But then also, um, 193 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: because he was in a compromised position and he was 194 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: trying to sell n C, I s, yeah, I can 195 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: see that you started spinning, spinning your web of los 196 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: So because of that, I took that information and just 197 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: threw it out entirely and did not use it in 198 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: my reporting because it's compromised and that that that Special 199 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: Forces warrant officer is not a reliable source. So I 200 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: have to cast that one aside and move on with 201 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: other sources of information. And I just wanted to point 202 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: that out, um, because I'm sure other people will bring 203 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: it up and try to discredit the story entirely. So 204 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: the story was published yesterday afternoon, and of course I 205 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: expected a sizeable backlash and was not disappointed. Um, there 206 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: was I'm not going to, you know, get down into 207 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: the weeds with it. Um. Of course, Chief Gallagher's wife, 208 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 1: Uh made a fairly strong rebuttal you know about yours truly, 209 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: but that is what it is. And you know, she 210 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: feels she has to fight for her family. And I 211 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,079 Speaker 1: don't blame her for that. I get it. Yeah, that's 212 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: to be expected. I would I would assume that she 213 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: would defend him, of course, And I although she said 214 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: some things about me that aren't true, I have to 215 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,079 Speaker 1: respect the fact that she is fighting for her family, 216 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 1: and I have to look at it from her perspective, 217 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 1: that she's seeing her husband slip away and seeing her 218 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: future slip. Which is which is commendable on your end, 219 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: because I don't I mean, I don't think I would 220 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 1: get down on the muck. But when people start name 221 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: calling you can it can it can get it slippery slopes. 222 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: So good for you for I don't rising above it. 223 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: But having having a level head about this again, it's 224 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: just you have to be responsible about it. There was 225 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: one thing she said, um that other people ran with 226 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: that I do want to address because, um, if it 227 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: were true, it would be reprehensible, but it's not true, 228 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: and you have the platform. And since we want to 229 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: talk about facts and facts are important, let's talk about 230 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: some facts, all right. There was a previous story I 231 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: worked on about Chief Gallagher. This was back in January, 232 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 1: and the title of that article is, uh, Navy Seal 233 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: Chief Gallagher's stepson speaks out to defend father accused of 234 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: war crimes. That was January five of this year. So 235 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: I wrote this story. And what Mrs Gallagher was saying 236 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: and what other people began to run with and makes 237 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: sound even worse, was that I had got this information 238 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: from her son's like some sort of like gaming platform, 239 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: and then presented it as if I had interviewed him. 240 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: And then other people are like, oh my god, like 241 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: you know Jack Murphy Cyberstock, the ten year old kid 242 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: on Xbox, and took his comments and ran with them 243 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: like no, like factually, no, that's not what happened. Okay. 244 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: Where this came from, how this story came about, and 245 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: where these comments came about, was that Chief Gallagher has 246 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: a step son, Mrs Gallagher's biological son, Chief Gallagher's stepson. Uh. 247 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: He was eighteen at the time. He was an adult, 248 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: and he did a m A on Reddit, which is 249 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: always a great idea. Uh so for those who aren't familiar. 250 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: And I'm not like a huge Reddit guy, but Reddit 251 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: is a publicly viewable, public uh internet forum that anybody 252 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: can go on and read and an a m A 253 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: is asked me anything, So, like know, you know, famous 254 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: celebrities and stuff, and you know Anthony Bourden or somebody 255 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: like that, you know, uh, the late Anthony Borden, you know, 256 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: or Bill Murray, any celebrity. I go on, there's ask 257 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: me anything, and it's it's just, uh, it becomes a 258 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: genre on social media and of itself. I guess that 259 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: you know, anybody can go in there and ask you know, 260 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: this guy any question question. I mean, they don't have 261 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: to answer it, but there's some mount landerish questions out there. 262 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 1: So Chief Gallagher stepson did an a m A on 263 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: Twitter and uh and he has since deleted it. Smart Well, 264 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: I screen capped all of this and I have that 265 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: because I have to do my diligence, right um, and 266 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: then I sent um. I sent this young man a 267 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: a direct message and just asked him if he would 268 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: be willing to entertain a phone call and if we 269 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: could talk, and he said no, I'm not interested in 270 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: getting on the phone. But he provided me with some 271 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: information that I could use to verify that he was 272 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: who he said he was. UM, and and that was 273 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: it and we took it from there. And as I said, 274 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: you know, thanks for that, appreciate it, you know, UM, 275 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: and I off the bat In my first message to him, 276 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: my name is Jack Murphy. I'm an investigative journalist. You know, 277 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: here's where you can find my work. You know, UH, 278 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: very clearly tell who you are. It's not like, hey, man, 279 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: let's play some cold duty and let me get to 280 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: know you a little bit. I told him, I'm working 281 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: on a story and I want to get my facts 282 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: straight before writing anything. So I did not trick this person. There. 283 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 1: There was no subterfuge involved. I was not stalking a 284 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 1: kid on Xbox. That never ever happened, nor would I 285 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: ever do something like that because it's reprehensible. UM. But 286 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: this was an eighteen year old adult and he posted 287 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: this information publicly, and I went to him about it 288 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 1: and talked to him about it, and then I wrote 289 00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: the story. And you can go and see the story 290 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: for yourself. And UM, it has the quotes from UH 291 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: from chief Gallagher steps on and it's it's not. I mean, 292 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,880 Speaker 1: I think it's a fairly straightforward article just saying, hey, 293 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,479 Speaker 1: this is what Gallagher stands accused of. This is what 294 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: the stepson says. Um, you know, this is what's going 295 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: on with the with the case. Uh. And I think 296 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: that the reason why you haven't heard anything about this 297 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: story until today is because this first story I wrote 298 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: largely supports the defenses narrative. Very fair. Yes, I mean 299 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 1: it's in the step son's words that you know this seals. Uh. 300 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: You know some of the quotes in here. You have 301 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: to understand Steals aren't what they used to be, all 302 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 1: the bad aster who doesn't really exist anymore because of 303 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: ship like this. The new generation of Seals aren't like 304 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: those you have movies about. Uh. Where do you say 305 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: he said of Gallagher's teammates, they're out to get him. 306 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: He worked on like a horse and those he's can't 307 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: handle it. Uh. You know it's this kind of stuff 308 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 1: that that Gallagher was just such a tough leader that 309 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: his teammates turned on him. So it supports the defenses narrative. 310 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: Um in that sense, right, And that's why I think 311 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 1: we haven't heard anything about it before. But look you 312 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: you love me, hate me, indifferent. I just want to 313 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: clarify that. No, I was not cyberstalking kids on their 314 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: video games, Like come on, man, like really other than that, 315 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: I mean, there's not more to pile on there. But 316 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 1: like he's she claimed he was ten and he no no, no, 317 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: no no she didn't say but she said like her son. 318 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: And then from their others take it, take that story. 319 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 1: And so I'm getting message. I like, I wake up 320 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: in the morning, I'm getting message from people like you went, 321 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 1: you went on their son's video games. Yeah, and it's like, no, no, 322 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 1: that's not what happened. Listen to episode. I'll explain everything. 323 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: So we'll see what happens next with this story. UM, 324 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 1: if anything, but it's interesting and I mean you can 325 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: go and read it. The story UH is titled UH. 326 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: Navy Seal Eddie Gallagher was also alleged to have committed 327 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: murder in Afghanistan. Both UM. Both year one from January 328 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: and the one you wrote on the twelve will be 329 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: linked in today's episode. So if you're listening and you 330 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: have an interest to reading it, which you should because 331 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: it's a great piece, just go over to software Radio 332 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: dot com and the link will be in there. You 333 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:33,919 Speaker 1: can click it and we'll take you right to it 334 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: so you can read it for yourself. Um. And like 335 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 1: you said, the trial gets underway Monday, So I don't 336 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: think this is the last word we've we're going to 337 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: speak about Eddie Gallagher. I could almost assure you it's 338 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: not no, UM, And you could even argue we have 339 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: a responsibility to report um because we have talked about 340 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: him on his eventual guilt or innocence or if if 341 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: there's a mistraal a report on that as well. So 342 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: I think one way or the other, you know, we 343 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: were going to have to follow up on the story, 344 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: of course. I mean, being the reporter you are, you 345 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 1: can't just leave it. There's there's always a follow up 346 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: to we haven't even, like you said, they haven't gone 347 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:17,719 Speaker 1: to trial yet, there's no so well, I mean, at 348 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: a minimum, we have to report on what the outcome 349 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: of the trial at um. With that, that's that was 350 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: heavy Eddie Gallagher to open um. We haven't even mentioned 351 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:34,959 Speaker 1: our our guests today, which we're not doing our due diligence. UM. 352 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: His name's Ed Morales. He was a former marine he 353 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: was also a special agent in the FBI, and most notably, 354 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: he was involved in the FBI Miami shootout. Um, we're 355 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: not gonna get much more into that because that's why 356 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 1: we have head on four, but it is it is 357 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: certainly you and I were discussing off fair wild story, 358 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: um shootouts in general, like you know you see in 359 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: movies in there one thing, but this this man lived it. 360 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: So hearing his story is gonna be incredible as all 361 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: the guests we have on. But definitely looking forward to 362 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 1: having it on. And not much more than needs to 363 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: be said with that without having him on. Yeah, absolutely, Um, 364 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be interesting 365 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: to say for sure. And this is this is a 366 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 1: famous famous firefight that yeah, I mean we were we 367 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: were reading about it and it said they I mean, 368 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 1: he'll hopefully he'll talk more about it. But it changed 369 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: how agents handle uh tactically, just with the the handguns 370 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: and whatnot. And and I'm sure it will delve into that. Also, 371 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: he was the first agent. I'm sure I'll mention in 372 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: my my intro of it, but he's the first man 373 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: to win, first agent to win the Middle of Valor, 374 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: which is interesting, also incredible on his behalf didn't know that, 375 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: so um, something else to add to the legend of 376 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: Ed Morales. So we're looking forward to having him on, 377 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: which will be shortly for you guys. But first the 378 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: show is brought to you by air Drop. Air Drop 379 00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: is a new section on Creep Club where you can 380 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: find intoessential gear and Killer apparel that you can buy 381 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: separately from our monthly and quarterly club subscriptions. There's some 382 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: great stuff on there that's heavily discounted, but a lot 383 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: of these items sell out quickly, so you gotta act 384 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,159 Speaker 1: now if you want something. For example, we got a 385 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 1: few more cry Precision Ballistic soft armor inserts and Create 386 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: Club fishing spears. But there's other items like the Gerber multitool. 387 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: They're gone, so don't even bother. It's up on its 388 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,959 Speaker 1: own section on Create Club dot us, or you can 389 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: go to store dot crate Club dot us to check 390 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 1: it all out. That store dot crate Club dot us 391 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 1: tons of gear that you're going to love. You can 392 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: find that on air Drop. Is there anything else you 393 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: would like to discuss? I know this was predominantly Eddie 394 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: Gallagher base, but no, that's all I got off hand. 395 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 1: I mean quite an intro. You did a phenomenal job 396 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: explaining the story. It's defending not You're not defending yourself. 397 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: You're explaining yourself. Um, the whole rice farmer, I don't 398 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: want to say it's a rice farm, but the farmer crazy. 399 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: I mean, you said another day in Afghanistan in but 400 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:06,719 Speaker 1: um are you do you watch a lot of um 401 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: military movies. I know, probably the old stuff you do. 402 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: But like I want to say, it was Triple nine. 403 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: It was called It's on Netflix. It came out within 404 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: the past half year. Um. But as reading this, it 405 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: reminded me of the scene in there, which I mean 406 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,239 Speaker 1: they very well could have pulled from it, but they 407 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: might not have. It was, um it's Ben affleck um 408 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: Triple Frontier, Triple Frontier, not Triple nine, Triple Frontier. Watch that. Yeah, 409 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 1: that reminded me of the scene. I'm not the spoilers 410 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: for anybody that hasn't seen it, you should. I enjoyed it. 411 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,360 Speaker 1: Um where after they go and they're trying to get 412 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: to the boat and they come upon that village and 413 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: they kind of had that field and not necessarily the same. 414 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: But I feel like directors in Hollywood. They pull from 415 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 1: situations like this where obviously you don't want to do it, 416 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: you know, step by step, but you take it and 417 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: you're like, all right, here's the situation, like, you know, 418 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: these people are trying to live their lives and you've 419 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: got these military guys doing something that's not exactly you know, 420 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: on the up and up. Um you with the background 421 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 1: you have? Is that? And am I just like trying 422 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: to pull strings here? What? Look? Well, I mean I'm 423 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: sure that well we I have to draw a hard 424 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: line between fact and fiction, but you're you're right in 425 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: that they these these Hollywood product producers and so on, 426 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: they hire um technical advisors who have military backgrounds. So 427 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: all right, Well that that answered That was my question. 428 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: I mean, because obviously, I mean it is fiction. Let's 429 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: clear that right up, right off the bat, Triple Frontier 430 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: is fiction. But I wanted to see your opinion if, like, 431 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: almost how much do they put not I mean the 432 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: technical advisors, because you're on both ends of this, like 433 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: you're you know, your former military, but at the same time, 434 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: you want to put a good UM product for television 435 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: or movies whatever. So is it that little bit of 436 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: like you know, here's the story. But at the same time, 437 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: you're you're like, you know, these guys are my brothers. Like, 438 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,879 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna I'm not giving you the almost like 439 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: a magician, I don't want to belittle, but like, I 440 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, I'm not really a Hollywood guy, 441 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: so I really couldn't say, but um I did. I mean, yeah, 442 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: I'll just leave it at that. I don't really know 443 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 1: what goes on in Hollywood, fair enough. Um, But yeah, 444 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: that that was just something I wanted to bring up 445 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: because reading the story, it reminded me of that scene 446 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: and I had seen it within the past month, so 447 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 1: that's why it popped in. It was an entertaining movie, yeah, 448 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: I mean, definitely ridiculous, but entertaining, And I mean that's 449 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,439 Speaker 1: what you want when you watching Netflix, at least unless 450 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: you're watching the documentaries, which are good. Um. With that 451 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: weird sidetrack on my part, I apologize. We're gonna bring 452 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: on Ed Morales, former marine and special agent for the FBI, 453 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:51,160 Speaker 1: and he's gonna tell us all about the shootout in Miami, 454 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: so enjoy joining us. Now we have Ed Morales, former 455 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: marine and a graduate from the University of Maryland. But 456 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 1: you were most notably known for being a former special 457 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: agent in the FBI, where you were involved in the 458 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: FBI Miami shootout. Is that correct? That is correct? All right. 459 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: We are happy to have you on. Thank you so 460 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: much for joining us, and we are I know, Jack 461 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: and I have discussed affair very much looking forward to 462 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: hearing your account. This is just a wild story thirty 463 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,199 Speaker 1: years later, um, and we're very excited to get right 464 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: into it. Okay, super Yeah, just asked me, asked me 465 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:31,719 Speaker 1: any question you want to know. I'm I'm you know, 466 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: generally pretty pretty direct. Thank you. Ed. Uh, well, why 467 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 1: don't we, Uh could you tell us a little bit 468 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: about you know, your your background growing up and how 469 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 1: you came to join the FBI. Yeah, I was born 470 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: in South Texas in the early fifties, and uh, you know, 471 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: I grew up in a small little Texas town. Uh. 472 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: You know, I remember the days and it was almost 473 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: almost reminds me of a rock you know, those hot, 474 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: hot days. You know, no no rain, you know, the 475 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: dust is flying, you know. And you know I had 476 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: a great life, you know, family, church, school, and uh 477 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,880 Speaker 1: when I was growing up, I was watching Uh we 478 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: had a black and white TV, which was the center 479 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: of the house in the fifties. I watched a program 480 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: called the FBI FBI Stories with the from Resemblance Jr. 481 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: And Uh. I sat there watching the show, and I'm thinking, Wow, 482 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: wouldn't it be great to be an FBI agent, you know? 483 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: And I said, you know, and it'll never happen, you know, 484 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: it'll it'll just never happen, you know. But I kind 485 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 1: of folded it away and you know, continue to live 486 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: my life. I went to elementary school, you know, junior 487 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: high high school, and then I, uh during that time 488 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: frame in the sixties, Uh, the US had the draft, 489 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: so I was subject to the draft. And uh, as 490 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: it turned out, I had a had a high number 491 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: or low number, depending on how you look at it, 492 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: you know. And uh I thought I would eight eight 493 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: by the horns, you know, and say hey, you know, 494 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: I'm gonna name you know, my time, my place. And 495 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: I enlisted rather than be drafted, you know. So I 496 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: joined the Marine Corps. And you know that was an interesting, 497 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: uh interesting uh career path, I suppose I could call it, 498 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: you know. And I was lucky enough to have been 499 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: involved with a get to know an FBI agent, real 500 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: life FBI guy, you know. So, and he took an 501 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: interest in me and kind of recruited me. Um, he said, hey, 502 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: I he liked what he saw. Uh, he said, um, 503 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: you know, I as soon as I finished my my 504 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: studies at the University of Maryland, he said, hey, give 505 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: me a call. I'll I'll get you an application and 506 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: we might be able to get you in into the 507 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 1: FBI pretty quickly. And sure enough he was a man 508 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: of his word, you know, he he got me an application. 509 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: I applied and you know, as luck would have it, Uh, 510 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: I was accepted, you know, and the rest of it's 511 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: kind of like, uh, that's that's the rest of the story, 512 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: as has been said. So which field officers were you 513 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,239 Speaker 1: sent to and what kind of cases did you end 514 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: up working in those early days during your career. I 515 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: was recruited, Uh since the University of Marylands around you know, 516 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: Washington d C. I was recruited out of the I 517 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: was living in Virginia. I was recruited out of the 518 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:37,239 Speaker 1: FBI office in Alexandria. It no longer exists. It was, 519 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: you know, I guess merged with the Washington d C. Office. 520 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: Now you have the General h Washington d C Office, 521 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,719 Speaker 1: which covers northern Virginia, Washington, and southern Maryland. You know, 522 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: so I was assigned there for five years. I had 523 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: an undercover operation that I worked in Miami for about 524 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: eighteen months. Then I came back to Washington and uh, 525 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: and subsequently I was transferred to Miami in nineteen five. 526 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: But while I was in Washington, it was Washington is 527 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: a neat place to work. It. Um, I was on 528 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: a terrorism squad um, which was kind of like cutting 529 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: edge at the time, you know, back in the it 530 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: was actually to be exact. And uh, I don't know 531 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: if many people remember the Iranian embassy takeover, you know, 532 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: four hundred and forty four days, you know, and if they, 533 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: if they listen to this podcast, they better be familiar 534 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: with it because we've had people who are on that 535 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: operation to rescue the hostages on here. Correct. Correct, Yeah, 536 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: I'm still honestly excuse my friends, but I'm still piste off. 537 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: You know at that whole incident. You know, the US 538 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: responded so poorly. I mean, I'm not for you know, 539 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: you know, bombing people into the stone Age, but you know, 540 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: it should have been somewhere in between there, and and 541 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 1: and diplomacy because I was you know, I was just 542 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: so ticked that these these uh, these quote unquote students 543 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: are marching our our diplomats and and our our staff 544 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: around blindfolded, you know, like like trophies, you know. And 545 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: I still have that image in my mind, you know, 546 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: and I was just so so upset about that. So anyway, 547 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: I digress a little bit. But everything at the time 548 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,239 Speaker 1: was Middle Eastern terrorism. So we were hotting, you know, 549 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: going hot and heavy on you know, trying to figure 550 00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: out who in the US was a legitimate student and 551 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: who was a potential terrorist. You know. So it was 552 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: it was interesting times back then. And then subsequently, I 553 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: was in eight five, I was transferped to Miami, UM 554 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: and I was assigned to a bankrupty squad. Can can 555 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: you talk at all about those undercover operations you were 556 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: working in Washington, d c um do encounter? I guess 557 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: anti terrorism is the term I should use. Well, yeah, 558 00:32:57,920 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: you know, we were just like I said, you know, 559 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: we were just invest getting. You know, at the time, 560 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: I was really amazed, I mean, because I had no 561 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: exposure to this at all, you know, I mean, we 562 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: were trying to figure out there were so many students 563 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: quote unquote students that were involved that we're not not involved, 564 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 1: that there were from the Middle East, and uh we 565 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: ended up looking around and and and trying to figure 566 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: out who was a legitimate student and who was at 567 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: the time, who was quote unquote one of the uh 568 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: running and intelligence folks or running and hit hit squads 569 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: that were supposedly sent by the Yatola Comany, you know, 570 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,360 Speaker 1: to hunt down people that were against his government and 571 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: and and against him personally. So you know, we would 572 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: go through a process or you know, we'd have to 573 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: find everybody, you know, O. You know, our country so great, 574 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 1: you know, folks use U use those freedoms against us, 575 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: you know, because you know, people would come in as 576 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: a student and then they disappear, you know, I mean 577 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: that'd be here for six months and then you know 578 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 1: they're supposed to be at the University of Georgetown or 579 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: Catholic University, and then they'd be in San Francisco, you know, 580 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: working somewhere else, doing something else. You know. So that 581 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: was our job, tracking these folks down and trying to 582 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 1: figure out, Hey, what's your involvement, you know with the 583 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: potential intelligence operations or potential terrorism operations in the US, 584 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: you know. So, I mean that was like full time work. 585 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: I mean it was like unbelievable the number of students 586 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: that were in the country. And you know the old 587 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: you know illegal immigration you know, uh conversation that's going 588 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: on now. I mean a lot of these were overstays, 589 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:48,840 Speaker 1: you know that get a visa and then the overstayed 590 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 1: the visit, you know, and then you know, nobody would know, 591 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 1: would would care, you know, so except US. UM. Before 592 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,439 Speaker 1: we get into you know, your assignment to the bank 593 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 1: robbery squad, UM, I wanted to ask you a question 594 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: as far as what sort of training or preparations you 595 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:13,399 Speaker 1: had through um, the FBI or elsewhere, UM to deal 596 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: with a firefight as a sort of life and death firefight. UM. 597 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: I think you can see where I'm going with this, 598 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: but I'm just curious, before you get before all of this, 599 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 1: you know, what kind of training did you have? Well, 600 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,279 Speaker 1: you know, I was one of the lucky ones. I 601 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: had small unit tactics, you know, training in the in 602 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 1: the Marine Corps, you know, back then here's another another 603 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 1: term that many people don't don't remember. We were I 604 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 1: was actually training for the Vietnam War. You know, it 605 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: was towards the end. I enlisted in seventy and you know, 606 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: we were actually preparing my unit actually got orders to 607 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: report to Vietnam. And right about that time frame, the 608 00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: Honorable Mr Nixon and the Secretary of State kissing her, 609 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,800 Speaker 1: were negotiating with the Vietnamese, and uh, the President and 610 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: I guess kissing her you know, worked out a deal 611 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: where they started pulling back, they started ending the war. 612 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: So we were actually, excuse me, we were actually loading 613 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: our gear. I was part of an artillery group, um, 614 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: and we were loading our equipment on ships you know, 615 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: to be a transferred over to Vietnam. And uh, I 616 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: remember it was like midnight when when evening, you know, 617 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: and they said, hey, stop loading guys in the way. 618 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: The presidents called off the war. We got to take 619 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: all this crap off the ship. It was kind of funny, 620 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: you know. But it's like what I mean, I'm just 621 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: an E two, you know, a snuppy, you know, I mean, 622 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,320 Speaker 1: I'm just I just do what I was told, you know. 623 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: So so anyway, so, but getting med to to your 624 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 1: original question, yeah, I had you know, we we we 625 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: shot a lot, you know, we did a lot of tactics. 626 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: We march alot, you know, we uh you know, as 627 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 1: a as a as a as an artillery guy. I 628 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: wasn't a cannon cocker. I was a forward observer, you know, 629 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,720 Speaker 1: So I mean I had to hump a lot of times, 630 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: you know, out front, you know, hoping that some big 631 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 1: piece of steel didn't land on my head. You know. 632 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 1: It's certainly you know, since I'm the one calling it in, 633 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: you know. But luckily for me, like I said, I had, 634 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 1: I had that training, you know. But then in the FBI, 635 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: you know, there is a unfortunately, uh, if I'm honest, 636 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: which was I try to be our training at the 637 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: time in the in the eighties, which I came in 638 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: at seventy nine into the FBI, our training was was 639 00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: good training. Um, but there's a difference between you know, 640 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 1: training a person how to shoot and then you know, 641 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:56,280 Speaker 1: actual combat training. You you being you know with your background, 642 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: you know what combat training it's it's a whole different environment. 643 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: You know, shooting at a at a five d at 644 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,839 Speaker 1: a five hundred yard at the five hundred yard line, 645 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: you know, just shooting at a at a target, the 646 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: static you know that you could plank all day, you know, 647 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 1: but then you get you get in a close quarter battle, 648 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 1: you know, I mean you're moving and shooting and and 649 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: and you know you're assessing and move forward, moving, move right. 650 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 1: You know. The FBI didn't have any of that. We 651 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: would shoot in lines. They were teaching marksmanship and uh 652 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: towards the end of our training. It was a sixteen 653 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 1: week program. Towards the end of our training, we we 654 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: we would go into what they called Hogan's Alley, the 655 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: old Hogan's Alley, you know, the little mock city, and 656 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: you know, they were just pop up targets and turning targets, 657 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: you know, very very little actual uh stress, you know, 658 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,080 Speaker 1: and and it was very limited at the time, you know, 659 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 1: but you know, it is what it was, you know, 660 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,359 Speaker 1: I mean, it's I mean, that's what it was back 661 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty, you know. So then the rest of 662 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: it had to be on your own. You know, when 663 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: you were assigned to your field office, you know, you 664 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,279 Speaker 1: were expected to continue to train and and maybe if 665 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: you had any outside interests, you know, and train on 666 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: your own and look for for any like ex military 667 00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: guys that you know that could help you out, you know, 668 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,840 Speaker 1: with any tips or whatever you or maybe go to 669 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 1: some private trainers that that could teach you, you know, tactics. 670 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 1: You know, I'm moving and shooting that type of stuff. 671 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,680 Speaker 1: If I could just interrupt just for one, one quick second, 672 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,279 Speaker 1: and I just wanted to point out to listeners that 673 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 1: at this time nine into this was when the idea 674 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 1: of um combat reloads or drawing a weapon from concealment 675 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,800 Speaker 1: and firing it, drawing a side arm from concealment and firing, 676 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,800 Speaker 1: those were drills that were not really taught at that time. 677 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: I think the only person, the only place where people 678 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 1: could really get that kind of training was from Jeff 679 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 1: Cooper at gun Side exactly exactly exactly right. And you 680 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 1: know that was that was viewed by by many, you know, 681 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,280 Speaker 1: law enforcement guys are not guys, but not law enforcement 682 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 1: trainers as exotic or you know top you know, you 683 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: know so. But you know, unfortunately, I hate to say it, 684 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: but the attitude at the time and the FBI was, hey, 685 00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: if you have to use your gun for something, then 686 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: you screwed up. You know, It's like, what what do 687 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:36,840 Speaker 1: you mean I screwed up? You know, that was that 688 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 1: was the attitude. You know, the old the old school guys, 689 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 1: you know, the the true you know, gum shoe investigators. 690 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: You know, I'm talking like really old school. You know. 691 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: Well Son, if you had to shoot somebody, then then 692 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: you probably made a mistake somewhere. You know, you should 693 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: have talked to him a little more so. But that 694 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,760 Speaker 1: attitude to change. Believe me, my friend, it has changed 695 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 1: a great deal. You know. On that note, let's um, 696 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 1: let's then start talking about getting assigned to the bank 697 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: robbery UH squad down in Miami. And I imagine as 698 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:13,000 Speaker 1: a as a young FBI agent, that must have been 699 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: kind of exciting. Oh it was. It was super exciting. 700 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,239 Speaker 1: I mean it was like a dream come through, you know, 701 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,800 Speaker 1: because my squad was it was a bank robbery, investigations, 702 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:28,719 Speaker 1: fugitive investigations, kidnappings, and extortions. I mean, it's like it's 703 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 1: like the trifecta of of good stuff, you know, to work. 704 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 1: I mean, what what young person wouldn't want to work 705 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,759 Speaker 1: bank robberies? And I loved you know. Some one of 706 00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,440 Speaker 1: my neighbors asked me, and I think he got mad 707 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: at me, says, do you hunt? You know? And and 708 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 1: I used to hunt as a kid back in Texas. 709 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: I used to hunt rabbits and you know stuff with 710 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: my dad, you know. Um, And as I grew older, 711 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 1: and when I got of the Marine Corps, I stopped 712 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 1: hunting animals. You know, I just didn't, you know, I 713 00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 1: just didn't sit well with me. And I'm shooting you know, 714 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: some port defenseless little rabbit, you know. So I stopped 715 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: hunting all together, you know. And one of my neighbors 716 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 1: asked me, says, do you hunt? I said, only people, 717 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:13,399 Speaker 1: you know, and he looked at me and he never 718 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 1: talked to me again. You know. But but I tell 719 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,200 Speaker 1: you I loved to hunt people. Man. I mean it's 720 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,879 Speaker 1: it's like Henryway said, you know, there is no no 721 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,839 Speaker 1: thrill like hunting, uh a man and hunting armed men. 722 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,319 Speaker 1: You know, once you get a knack for it, I 723 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: forget the exact quote. Once you get a taste for 724 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,359 Speaker 1: hunting armed men, you'll never want to do anything else 725 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 1: again in your life, you know. So, and it was true. 726 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: I mean I I used to jump out of it 727 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:42,920 Speaker 1: in the morning, you know, going to work. I mean 728 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: it was fantastic because engaged in man hunting, tracking down exactly, 729 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: and we were hunting, you know, armed humans, you know, 730 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,080 Speaker 1: and it's like, I mean, talk about the most dangerous 731 00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,400 Speaker 1: game in the world. You know, it's like wow, I 732 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,319 Speaker 1: mean it's like apparbably know, I mean you you kind 733 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: of you know, terrorists and tally Man and folks on 734 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 1: in the Middle East. You know, it's it's kind of exciting, 735 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 1: I mean in a in a very kind of odd segue. Yeah, 736 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,960 Speaker 1: and we uh speaking of which we had FBI HRT 737 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,839 Speaker 1: guys with us on on some of those terms. Yeah. Yeah, 738 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,600 Speaker 1: I was told, you know, I was aware of that, 739 00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,240 Speaker 1: you know, because uh, any time there's a possibility of 740 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:28,400 Speaker 1: tracking down a wanted uh terrorist in the U S. 741 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 1: You know, they like to assign some folks to it, 742 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,799 Speaker 1: you know. That way, there's no issues with Oh yes, 743 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 1: he was given his miranda right for right. So can 744 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 1: you before before the six incident, were there any really 745 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 1: interesting cases that you worked on, uh, you know, working 746 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 1: on the bank robberies and extortions and all of those. 747 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, you know there were, I mean, there were 748 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: always little I mean, there was always something funny going on. 749 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 1: You know. It's like, I remember, I've been looking for 750 00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,560 Speaker 1: this guy out of New York and uh it was 751 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,799 Speaker 1: what we call a dog case. You know, it had 752 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,319 Speaker 1: been you know, sitting around for like three or four 753 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,799 Speaker 1: or five years. Nobody could find this guy. And I 754 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: got the case, and I'm thinking, a great, you know, 755 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 1: a dog. You know. It's like, you know, supposedly all 756 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,200 Speaker 1: the leads have been covered, you know. So I opened 757 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 1: the case and I went back to the very first page, 758 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 1: you know, I said, okay, let me read, you know, 759 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,160 Speaker 1: how this thing started. And I'm reading, and I'm reading, 760 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,920 Speaker 1: and I go through through the whole case file, you know, 761 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,719 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, hey, you know, I just realized something. 762 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,880 Speaker 1: You know, this guy was supposedly enrolled in a technical 763 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:44,799 Speaker 1: class a technical school in Miami. And I said, you know, 764 00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 1: I saw that, and and the the agent at the 765 00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:52,640 Speaker 1: time went down to check with the university UM and 766 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:58,400 Speaker 1: the the agent made a report saying that that nobody 767 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: UM knew him or something like that. So I said, 768 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:02,759 Speaker 1: you know what, that that's interesting, you know. So I 769 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,480 Speaker 1: started looking into it and I started calling. I think 770 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:10,239 Speaker 1: it was a Dade County or Miami Dade university. So 771 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:12,239 Speaker 1: I said, you know what, let me find out, you know. 772 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,879 Speaker 1: So I went to admissions and I said, hey, listen, 773 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:16,239 Speaker 1: I'm trying to find a friend of mine. You know, 774 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,399 Speaker 1: his name is, you know, Bill Jones, you know, blah 775 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,839 Speaker 1: blah blah. You know. Of course I didn't tell him. 776 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 1: I was, you know, hunting him, you know. So they said, oh, yeah, 777 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,839 Speaker 1: you know, uh here's his record. I said, well, did 778 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:29,759 Speaker 1: he have any friends? I mean, did he can? Do 779 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,680 Speaker 1: you have any professors that he may have known or 780 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,480 Speaker 1: that that he took classes from? So you know, I'm 781 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,719 Speaker 1: just going down you know, just you know, actually just 782 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:40,839 Speaker 1: you know, kind of like you know, a shotgun lead. 783 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,759 Speaker 1: I just you know, fired a shotgun up into the 784 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:44,880 Speaker 1: air and see what, see what I could hit? You know, 785 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:49,200 Speaker 1: And in lone rehole, I found a what do they 786 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: call it in college? A counselor or, like a student counselor. Yeah, 787 00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 1: student counselor. Right. I found a student counselor listed on there, 788 00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,840 Speaker 1: and and I said, what the heck? You know? So 789 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,680 Speaker 1: I went over and I found the student counselor and 790 00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,719 Speaker 1: he said, yeah, I remember Bill, you know he was 791 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:10,839 Speaker 1: he had he was getting a disease. Uh. He said 792 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:16,360 Speaker 1: he stopped coming to class because he couldn't commute anymore, 793 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,759 Speaker 1: he couldn't drive. I guess he started getting Parkinson's or something. 794 00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,439 Speaker 1: I have forget what it was. So I said, oh, wow, 795 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,759 Speaker 1: you know, I said, uh, you don't happen to have 796 00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 1: his his contact information to you. And know he goes, yeah, 797 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:29,440 Speaker 1: he said, I think I might be able to find it, 798 00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:33,279 Speaker 1: so long behold, he actually found an address for me 799 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,719 Speaker 1: that he had used when he registered for classes. So 800 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:38,920 Speaker 1: I said, what the heck, you know, I can't believe 801 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,720 Speaker 1: I'm so lucky man. So I went to the address 802 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,360 Speaker 1: and it was on Miami Beach. And I'm thinking, you know, 803 00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,399 Speaker 1: it's a transient area, you know, and I don't want 804 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:50,680 Speaker 1: to store up too many you know, you know, move 805 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 1: too many leaves, you know, because it'll it'll, you know, 806 00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:56,440 Speaker 1: let him know that I'm looking for him. So I 807 00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,400 Speaker 1: kind of narrowed it down to a building, you know, 808 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,160 Speaker 1: an a farmer building. And then I started flashing his 809 00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:06,120 Speaker 1: photo photograph around, you know, the local grocery stores, the 810 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,799 Speaker 1: local bar. You know. Back then there was Blockbuster, you know, 811 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,520 Speaker 1: going he went to the Blockbuster, and somebody at Blockbuster 812 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,040 Speaker 1: Video said, oh, yeah, this guy comes in periodically and 813 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,000 Speaker 1: the rent video. I said, okay, he's still in the area. 814 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:21,879 Speaker 1: So I just kind of set up set up out there, 815 00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:23,880 Speaker 1: you know, looking for him, you know, just in the 816 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,560 Speaker 1: mornings or in the evenings. And then one day he 817 00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 1: just walked out of the apartment in the in the building, 818 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,880 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, wow, you know, I asked, you watched him. 819 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,479 Speaker 1: He goes into a car or opens a car, puts 820 00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:42,359 Speaker 1: in his his his things, his briefcase or something, goes 821 00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,600 Speaker 1: back into the apartment. And that's when I said, okay, 822 00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:47,400 Speaker 1: I drove my car around, parked it around the side 823 00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:49,200 Speaker 1: be where he couldn't see it. And then I kind of, 824 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,239 Speaker 1: you know, stood around, you know, pretending to wait for 825 00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,480 Speaker 1: a bus or something. I forget what I did. And 826 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:56,520 Speaker 1: he went to his car, and I walked up behind him, 827 00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:58,920 Speaker 1: and I said, this is terrible, you know, because in 828 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,600 Speaker 1: Miami you have all kinds of robberies and you know, 829 00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,080 Speaker 1: car jackings and home and made you know. And I 830 00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,600 Speaker 1: didn't have any any markings on me except my badge 831 00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,120 Speaker 1: on my chest, you know, and most people don't don't 832 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:11,960 Speaker 1: see that. They just see the big gun in your hand, 833 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,000 Speaker 1: you know. So you know, so and I said, you know, 834 00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:16,799 Speaker 1: I hope I don't get shot, you know, I hope 835 00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:18,480 Speaker 1: he doesn't turn around and try to find me thinking 836 00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:20,520 Speaker 1: I'm trying to rob him, you know. So, but luckily, 837 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:22,840 Speaker 1: you know that that didn't happen. You know, I just 838 00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,240 Speaker 1: announced myself. You know, FBI, don't move, you're under arrest, 839 00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,880 Speaker 1: you know. And it was it was pretty anti climatic, 840 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,239 Speaker 1: you know. So but anyway, when I when I got him, 841 00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:34,160 Speaker 1: you know, and put him in the car, you know, 842 00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,480 Speaker 1: and I said, so, dude, you know, I said, how 843 00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:39,799 Speaker 1: you know, how you've been? You know, it goes I've 844 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,120 Speaker 1: been fine, you know, he said, he said, you know what, 845 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:43,719 Speaker 1: I'm glad you caught me. He said, what I took 846 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,520 Speaker 1: you guys so long? You know, it's like, wow, dude, 847 00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,160 Speaker 1: you know, he said, man, I've been living for like 848 00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,400 Speaker 1: I think it was seven years. He'd been a fugitive 849 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,759 Speaker 1: for seven years, he said, Man, he said, he gets 850 00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,400 Speaker 1: tiring looking over your shoulder all the time. You know. 851 00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,319 Speaker 1: I said, well, I mean, you could have turned yourself in, 852 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,400 Speaker 1: and but I don't think he wanted to do that, 853 00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,120 Speaker 1: you know. So that that was an interesting case. And 854 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,080 Speaker 1: then there was another case. We made fun of the agent. 855 00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:11,319 Speaker 1: You know, um he went out there looking for a 856 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,719 Speaker 1: fugitive and and he asked for some help, you know, 857 00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:17,600 Speaker 1: because he was. There was an informant who said the 858 00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,560 Speaker 1: fugitive might be in the in a shopping mall. So 859 00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,080 Speaker 1: he couldn't cover a shopping mall, you know, by himself, 860 00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,479 Speaker 1: you know, so he asked for a couple of guys 861 00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:28,320 Speaker 1: to go help him. So we were out there looking, 862 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,839 Speaker 1: you know, for for the guy, and I hooked up 863 00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,760 Speaker 1: with him. His name was Bobby, I mean, the agent's 864 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,240 Speaker 1: name was Bob. We called him Bobby. I said, Bobby, 865 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,400 Speaker 1: what are we looking for? You know? He says, oh, man, 866 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:40,440 Speaker 1: that's him over there. Let's him over there. So he 867 00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,799 Speaker 1: starts walking fast, you know. I said, Bob, which guy 868 00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,359 Speaker 1: is he? And he's pointing. He said there, he is. 869 00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,160 Speaker 1: There he is, you know. And I said, Bob, where 870 00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:51,880 Speaker 1: are you pointing us? Who is this guy? He said, 871 00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:59,400 Speaker 1: it's a guy in the wheelchair. You know, Bob, you 872 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,719 Speaker 1: get you called the troops out to the arrest the 873 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:08,160 Speaker 1: wheel chair. He said no, he said, I just can't 874 00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:15,000 Speaker 1: cover this whole moll by myself. So so I helped him. 875 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,800 Speaker 1: I helped him stop this guy. I stuck a cane 876 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,960 Speaker 1: in the spokes of the wheelchair and he kind of 877 00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,440 Speaker 1: skidd out of control and fell out little wheelchair, you know. 878 00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:26,360 Speaker 1: So no, I'm kidding, that didn't happen, you know, But 879 00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,719 Speaker 1: the big joke was that, yeah, you know, you got 880 00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:32,400 Speaker 1: the guy was getting away until you you you stuck 881 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,640 Speaker 1: a stick in his in the spokes of his wheels, 882 00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:36,960 Speaker 1: you know, and then he skied out of So it 883 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,439 Speaker 1: was it was a big It was a big deal, 884 00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:41,759 Speaker 1: you know. So but you know it was a lot 885 00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:43,759 Speaker 1: of fun though, I mean, we we did handle some 886 00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:45,880 Speaker 1: some dangerous people, you know, I mean a lot of killers, 887 00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:47,960 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of murderers, you know, you know, 888 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,640 Speaker 1: rapists and stuff like that. You know, probably one of 889 00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:52,200 Speaker 1: the one of the ones that I'm glad I didn't 890 00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:58,440 Speaker 1: work on was and this is going back like ancient history. Uh, 891 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:03,799 Speaker 1: there was a lead from Texas about parental kidnapping. Got 892 00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:07,040 Speaker 1: to be a big deal back then. You know, a spouse, 893 00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,760 Speaker 1: you know, which is it's fair. You know, a spouse 894 00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,840 Speaker 1: is supposed to have joined custody, and you know that 895 00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:15,720 Speaker 1: either the husband or the wife takes takes her child 896 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,040 Speaker 1: and leaves the state. You know, it doesn't tell anybody 897 00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,040 Speaker 1: where where he or she is going, So then it 898 00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:25,920 Speaker 1: becomes a parental kidnapping case. So there was a parental 899 00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:30,680 Speaker 1: kidnapping case in out of Texas, and I knew something 900 00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:36,719 Speaker 1: was stinky because the case didn't come to us. It 901 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:40,040 Speaker 1: went to another squad. I don't know how, but I 902 00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,160 Speaker 1: am so glad we had nothing to do it. And 903 00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:47,600 Speaker 1: apparently the father had some political connections in Texas and 904 00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:51,920 Speaker 1: he got a warrant issued for his ex wife's arrest. 905 00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:57,840 Speaker 1: And they told us that the wife would be in 906 00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:02,360 Speaker 1: Miami at a certain hotel, and two agents you know, 907 00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:06,719 Speaker 1: from from another squad went down there to look for her. 908 00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:11,360 Speaker 1: And oh, my lord, had caused a big hullabaloo because 909 00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:17,120 Speaker 1: she had she happened to be a contestant in the 910 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:25,000 Speaker 1: Miss USA. So they went down to the Miss USA 911 00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:28,320 Speaker 1: pageant and arrested one of the protest Oh my god, 912 00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,080 Speaker 1: during the pageant, you know. And I'm thinking you got 913 00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:34,960 Speaker 1: to be kidding me, man, I said, even I'm not 914 00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,160 Speaker 1: that stupid. I mean, come on, guys, you know, so, 915 00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,200 Speaker 1: oh my god, it caused a big hullabaloo. But the 916 00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:43,680 Speaker 1: wands in the papers and everything else. Yeah, no, I 917 00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:45,759 Speaker 1: mean they had to warrant, you know. And like I said, 918 00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:47,960 Speaker 1: the guy in Texas had had some He was like 919 00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:52,400 Speaker 1: a muckety muck, you know, like I don't know, some 920 00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:55,400 Speaker 1: somebody's son, you know, a mayor's son or a state 921 00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,520 Speaker 1: senator son or something like that. And he said, hey, man, 922 00:52:57,560 --> 00:52:59,400 Speaker 1: I want this, I want this woman caught. You know, 923 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:01,600 Speaker 1: she took my baby, you know. Blah blah blah. You know. 924 00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:04,600 Speaker 1: So you know, we were so glad we had nothing 925 00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,000 Speaker 1: to do with that case, because I mean they were 926 00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:08,960 Speaker 1: there was a righteous arrest, you know, but I think 927 00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:10,640 Speaker 1: it could have been a little bit more disqueet than 928 00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:14,759 Speaker 1: to go to the Miss America or Miss You and say, 929 00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,520 Speaker 1: whatever the hell it was, Miss You say just you know, 930 00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:22,839 Speaker 1: to cough and and and perp walk some beautiful looking woman. 931 00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:28,120 Speaker 1: You know, that's unreal. Oh my god, there's so many stuffs, 932 00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:33,360 Speaker 1: so so many perfectly at the bikini contests. Oh yeah, exactly, 933 00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,640 Speaker 1: wait wait for the bikini continent and then per perp 934 00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:40,000 Speaker 1: walk around. You know, So, what's your special talent getting 935 00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,680 Speaker 1: arrested by the FBI? No, but you know, I mean, 936 00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:45,839 Speaker 1: I those are some funny cases, but no, there were 937 00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:47,520 Speaker 1: some other cases you know where I mean it was 938 00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,839 Speaker 1: we had a situation. It wasn't me directly in mom, 939 00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,160 Speaker 1: but it was the squad. They were looking for somebody, 940 00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:59,360 Speaker 1: and uh, they found him at his ex wife's residence, 941 00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,279 Speaker 1: I guess, you know, he was giving him top cover 942 00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,960 Speaker 1: and they surrounded the place and then the guy tried 943 00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,680 Speaker 1: to speed away in in the watch car, you know, 944 00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:12,120 Speaker 1: and it was it was just a big, big, you 945 00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:14,040 Speaker 1: know screw up, you know, I mean, not his part, 946 00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:16,120 Speaker 1: not our part, you know. I mean, we had a 947 00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:19,000 Speaker 1: warrant and we had about twelve bodies and about you know, 948 00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,399 Speaker 1: eight cars, so there was no way he was going 949 00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:24,239 Speaker 1: to escape, you know, down a residential street, you know, 950 00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:29,040 Speaker 1: and he crashed his car into a bunch of police cars, 951 00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:33,200 Speaker 1: FBI cars, and they told him to put his hands up, 952 00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:37,279 Speaker 1: you know, and he reached, you know for something, you know, 953 00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:40,160 Speaker 1: instead of putting his hands up, he reached for something 954 00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,120 Speaker 1: on the seat, under the seat, and somebody lit him up. 955 00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:45,880 Speaker 1: Man put a shotgun rifle slug through the back of 956 00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:49,960 Speaker 1: his head, you know. And the story, man is, there's 957 00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,879 Speaker 1: no way you can recover from from an announcer lead 958 00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,280 Speaker 1: going through your your head at about a thousand ft 959 00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,839 Speaker 1: per second, you know. So you know, so, I mean, 960 00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,759 Speaker 1: you know, there's some fun stories, but there's also very 961 00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:04,480 Speaker 1: very serious, you know, you know, shooting incidents, you know. 962 00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:06,799 Speaker 1: So well, then can you tell us a little bit 963 00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:12,120 Speaker 1: about the lead up to uh shootout and how you 964 00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,600 Speaker 1: guys were sent to stake out these two uh, these 965 00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:18,200 Speaker 1: two criminals. Absolutely. You know. The thing is, you know, 966 00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:22,360 Speaker 1: back in the in the like August of eighty five, Um, 967 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:27,719 Speaker 1: we started seeing a I mean, Miami's, Miami's Miami. You know, 968 00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:29,640 Speaker 1: it's like, I mean, you can't sugarcoat it. You know, 969 00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,279 Speaker 1: it's uh, I mean, it's a it's a violent place. 970 00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,000 Speaker 1: It can be very violent, you know. Uh. And um 971 00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:39,800 Speaker 1: we had at the time, we had two separate gangs 972 00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:43,359 Speaker 1: of armor truck and bank robbers were you know, and 973 00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:45,200 Speaker 1: I don't want anybody to think that we were racist 974 00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:47,160 Speaker 1: or anything like that, but we call them the Black 975 00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:50,560 Speaker 1: gang because they were black suspects. And then we call 976 00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:56,440 Speaker 1: it the Hispanic gang because there were Cubans. Okay, and 977 00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:58,919 Speaker 1: so we call hey, you know, the black the black 978 00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:01,720 Speaker 1: guys said again or the cubes hit again, you know, uh, 979 00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:03,840 Speaker 1: you know that type of stuff, you know, So we said, okay, 980 00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,320 Speaker 1: you know, so you know, we run out there and 981 00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,439 Speaker 1: again that was very violent. They there was one case 982 00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:13,919 Speaker 1: where a Wells Fargo guard was walking and walked into 983 00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:18,400 Speaker 1: a building and the subjects costed him in the hallway, 984 00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:20,239 Speaker 1: and I guess he must have resisted or something, but 985 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:21,759 Speaker 1: they just shot him in the head and killed him 986 00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,839 Speaker 1: right there, you know, and they grabbed the bag and 987 00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:27,160 Speaker 1: took off, you know. So I mean, it's it's it's 988 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:32,360 Speaker 1: it's a violent profession, violent enterprise. But then all of 989 00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:36,160 Speaker 1: a sudden in August, we started getting a third group 990 00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:40,840 Speaker 1: because their their style didn't match the black group or 991 00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:44,040 Speaker 1: the or the Hispanic group. So we just started calling him, 992 00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:46,719 Speaker 1: calling them the third group because we didn't know. Witnesses, 993 00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:49,239 Speaker 1: you know, could never tell us whether they were black 994 00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:53,240 Speaker 1: or white, you know, because they wore ski masks and gloves, 995 00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:57,560 Speaker 1: and they wore military style like the old field jackets 996 00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:02,279 Speaker 1: back into the fifties and sixties. You know, they yeah, 997 00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:05,720 Speaker 1: just playing green Field jacketsino and gloves and booze and stuff. 998 00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:09,359 Speaker 1: So and everybody, you know, gets kind of distracted when 999 00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,560 Speaker 1: someone shoves a forty four or or an assault rifle 1000 00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:14,600 Speaker 1: in your face. You have a tendency not to look 1001 00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:19,600 Speaker 1: at people's skin color, you know. So they said, what 1002 00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:26,240 Speaker 1: did it look like? You had a long nose? Officer. Uh, So, 1003 00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:28,560 Speaker 1: you know, we knew something was up because it wasn't 1004 00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,800 Speaker 1: the two the two groups that we were running, you know. 1005 00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,160 Speaker 1: And the very first robbery that we had was just 1006 00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:37,520 Speaker 1: odd all the way around, you know, because it was 1007 00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:42,760 Speaker 1: a steak and Ale. Two guys they attacked a Wells 1008 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,440 Speaker 1: Fargo guard coming out of the Steak and Ale restaurant 1009 00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:54,120 Speaker 1: Um Street Candle Drive, and they they hit the guard, 1010 00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:56,840 Speaker 1: you know, they took his gun and took his little 1011 00:57:56,840 --> 00:57:59,160 Speaker 1: currier bag, and then they marched them up to the 1012 00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:01,520 Speaker 1: front of the truck with a gun in his ear, 1013 00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:03,840 Speaker 1: and they told they told him, tell your partner to 1014 00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:07,640 Speaker 1: open the door. And he's telling the driver opened the door, 1015 00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:09,560 Speaker 1: open the door, you know, and he's got a gun 1016 00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:13,520 Speaker 1: in his ear, you know, and you know, uh, the 1017 00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:16,840 Speaker 1: policy for these drivers is don't open the door, you know. 1018 00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:19,720 Speaker 1: So he turned the truck on and drove away, you know. 1019 00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:24,520 Speaker 1: And I interviewed the guard. He survived. He said he 1020 00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:27,440 Speaker 1: was so pissed at his partner. I said, well, no kidding, 1021 00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:31,160 Speaker 1: he keeps you standing in a parking lot with a 1022 00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:35,640 Speaker 1: gun in your ear. But I mean that's that's the policy. 1023 00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:37,400 Speaker 1: You don't open the door. I mean, if you open 1024 00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:39,600 Speaker 1: the door, they'll take the whole truck, you know, and 1025 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:42,360 Speaker 1: the banks in the back, you know, so he begged 1026 00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:43,760 Speaker 1: for his life, you know, and they just hit him 1027 00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:45,440 Speaker 1: on the head, you know. And and one of the 1028 00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:48,000 Speaker 1: two guys had an assault rifle and he fired like 1029 00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:51,080 Speaker 1: fourteen or fifteen shots at the back of the armored truck. 1030 00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:52,920 Speaker 1: And of course it didn't do anything, you know, the 1031 00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:56,000 Speaker 1: polle is just bounced, bounce stoff. But the interesting part, 1032 00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:58,160 Speaker 1: I mean that that part, you know, the shooting and 1033 00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:02,200 Speaker 1: the attempted robbery, that's a normal day in Miami. I'm serious, 1034 00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:05,600 Speaker 1: you know, so, But the interesting part of this whole 1035 00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:08,600 Speaker 1: whole thing, the whole event, was when they jumped in 1036 00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:12,640 Speaker 1: their car to get away, they popped smoke you know. 1037 00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:16,840 Speaker 1: I don't know why they threw out to smoke grenades 1038 00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:24,720 Speaker 1: in the parking lot to cover them. It's like what, 1039 00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:27,800 Speaker 1: you know, So we said, this is odd, you know, 1040 00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:30,560 Speaker 1: even from Miami. You know, it's odd. You know, It's like, 1041 00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:32,440 Speaker 1: we said, what the heck? You know, we thought we 1042 00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:35,240 Speaker 1: were dealing with like a couple of military guys from 1043 00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:39,560 Speaker 1: Homestead Air Force Base or maybe some At the time, 1044 00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:42,080 Speaker 1: they used to call them survivalists, you know, before they 1045 00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:44,400 Speaker 1: called them militious, you know, So we didn't know what 1046 00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:46,560 Speaker 1: we had, you know, so we knew it was something different, 1047 00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:48,840 Speaker 1: you know. So and then we started seeing a series 1048 00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:53,520 Speaker 1: of these types of strange robberies, you know. The next 1049 00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:56,360 Speaker 1: the next robbery was at a at a grocery store 1050 00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:58,880 Speaker 1: and man, they lived up the parking lot. You know. 1051 00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:02,080 Speaker 1: The guard him out of the grocery store and one 1052 01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:05,520 Speaker 1: of the two players yelled freeze, And as soon as 1053 01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:09,360 Speaker 1: the yale freeze, he shot the guard. You know, he 1054 01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:12,000 Speaker 1: he with a shotgun. He shot, He shot him in 1055 01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:15,560 Speaker 1: the legs, and the guard goes down. Um, and then 1056 01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:18,360 Speaker 1: all hell breaks out because the guard you know, took 1057 01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:21,360 Speaker 1: his revolver out of his hoster and starts firing in 1058 01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:23,400 Speaker 1: the direction that the shot came from. And there were 1059 01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:26,320 Speaker 1: two additional guards in the in the armory truck they 1060 01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:29,760 Speaker 1: opened up. So the guards fired eighteen shots in total. 1061 01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:32,600 Speaker 1: Thank god, you know for that, because if they would 1062 01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:34,760 Speaker 1: have had more bullets, it would have fired more bullets. 1063 01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:38,280 Speaker 1: But then the bad guys fired an additional They returned 1064 01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:40,960 Speaker 1: fire an additional I think it was like fifteen shots, 1065 01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:43,880 Speaker 1: so it was about thirty rounds fired in the middle 1066 01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:47,080 Speaker 1: of a parking lot. In front of a grocery store. Okay, 1067 01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:49,840 Speaker 1: like like any any any ordinary grocery store. You go 1068 01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:53,080 Speaker 1: to your grocery store, you know, anywhere, and what you had. 1069 01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:55,600 Speaker 1: You've got people coming and going and you know, shopping cards, 1070 01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:58,880 Speaker 1: people parking and stuff. About thirty rounds were fired. Not 1071 01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:03,200 Speaker 1: one angle person was shot except for the guard, and 1072 01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:07,200 Speaker 1: we said, thank God for that. Boy, I'll tell you. 1073 01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,080 Speaker 1: You know, So they dumped in a car and and 1074 01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,560 Speaker 1: and and got away. But they didn't pop smoke this time, 1075 01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:14,440 Speaker 1: you know, so I guess they figured were you know, 1076 01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:16,680 Speaker 1: white white pop smoke when we're speeding away at fifty 1077 01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:21,200 Speaker 1: miles an hour. But these guys have a propensity for violence. 1078 01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:24,919 Speaker 1: I mean they're they're they're playing fast and yes, oh yeah, yeah, 1079 01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:28,080 Speaker 1: yeah for sure, you know. So. Uh but we asked 1080 01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:31,200 Speaker 1: the witnesses were who were they? And they said, well, 1081 01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:33,360 Speaker 1: they were black, and then somebody else said they were white, 1082 01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:36,040 Speaker 1: and then somebody else said they were Hispanic. What type 1083 01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:37,920 Speaker 1: of car? It was a two door car, It was 1084 01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:39,960 Speaker 1: a four door car. It was a station wagon. It 1085 01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,640 Speaker 1: was a pickup truck. It was blue, it was green, 1086 01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:45,880 Speaker 1: it was yellow, it was you know, it's like holy cow, 1087 01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:48,520 Speaker 1: you know, I mean when when when stress goes up, 1088 01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:52,320 Speaker 1: you know, people's reasoning goes down, you know. So you know, 1089 01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:56,080 Speaker 1: so the witnesses are pretty much worthless, you know, um, 1090 01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:58,680 Speaker 1: because we really didn't know, you know. I mean it's 1091 01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:00,960 Speaker 1: like it was it two or four door. You know, 1092 01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:03,640 Speaker 1: some people said it was a pickup truck. You know, 1093 01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:07,040 Speaker 1: so it's who knows, you know. So, so anyway, we 1094 01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:09,520 Speaker 1: knew right then, you know, that these guys were you know, 1095 01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:11,560 Speaker 1: it's like, hey, a calling card. We're new in town. 1096 01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:13,600 Speaker 1: You know, we're here, We're here to play, you know. 1097 01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:17,760 Speaker 1: So and that's continued on, you know. Uh as it 1098 01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:20,200 Speaker 1: turned out that the car they used for those robberies, 1099 01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:24,280 Speaker 1: we we uh, it was abandoned. We we recovered it 1100 01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:27,960 Speaker 1: like in January, I think it was the next year, 1101 01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:31,000 Speaker 1: and it was a stolen car obviously, you know, and 1102 01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:33,880 Speaker 1: we found out that the owner had been that had 1103 01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:39,080 Speaker 1: been missing for since August, you know. So, and eventually 1104 01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:43,360 Speaker 1: some hikers found the owner in in the Everglades. You know, 1105 01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:47,200 Speaker 1: they found his skeletal remains. You know, he had been 1106 01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:52,160 Speaker 1: shot and killed for his car. You know. So the 1107 01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:57,280 Speaker 1: following March, another guy, another citizen, had the misfortunate of 1108 01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:00,680 Speaker 1: being in the in the Everglades again target shooting, and 1109 01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:04,040 Speaker 1: two white guys approached them, and they shot him and 1110 01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:06,040 Speaker 1: left him for dead. They stole his car, you know, 1111 01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:12,200 Speaker 1: and his car ended up being used in a robbery 1112 01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:14,640 Speaker 1: like within ten days, you know. So, so that that's 1113 01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:18,560 Speaker 1: how the lead happened. Okay, up until that time, up 1114 01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:21,760 Speaker 1: until the second individual was shot and his car was 1115 01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:24,120 Speaker 1: toldn we had no clue. I mean, like I said, 1116 01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:27,560 Speaker 1: all the witnesses were just panicked because these guys would 1117 01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:29,760 Speaker 1: come in, you know, usually like you know, like the 1118 01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,800 Speaker 1: movie Heat, you know that come in shooting, shooting the 1119 01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:36,280 Speaker 1: place up, you know, threatening people. Uh, you know, so 1120 01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:38,439 Speaker 1: most people, you know, And and they were pretty good, 1121 01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:40,080 Speaker 1: you know that, Like I said, they always were their 1122 01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:44,280 Speaker 1: scheme masks uh And and most people don't have the 1123 01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:49,160 Speaker 1: wherewithal I guess to be able to look at somebody's eye, 1124 01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:53,560 Speaker 1: eye area and determine, you know, if they're if they're 1125 01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:56,080 Speaker 1: white under if there's white skin there or brown skin 1126 01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:58,320 Speaker 1: or black skin. You know, most people, like I said, 1127 01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:00,640 Speaker 1: just look at the weapons and fraid to god, they 1128 01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:03,440 Speaker 1: don't get killed, you know. So, so it wasn't until 1129 01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:09,240 Speaker 1: the the second individual, his name was Jose colazo Um 1130 01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:13,680 Speaker 1: was shot and left for dead that and he survived. That. 1131 01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:16,520 Speaker 1: We got our first actual eyewitness who said, hey, there 1132 01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:19,640 Speaker 1: are two white guys, and he gave us a good description. 1133 01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:22,080 Speaker 1: There were about six ft tall, about two hundred pounds, 1134 01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:26,000 Speaker 1: had a military bearing to him. They were driving a 1135 01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:28,480 Speaker 1: white pickup truck and they told his car, you know. 1136 01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:30,880 Speaker 1: So you know, we had the stolen car and the 1137 01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:33,919 Speaker 1: white pickup truck to go with. That's how we ended 1138 01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:37,800 Speaker 1: up on surveillance on the morning at Maprili eleventh. You know, 1139 01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:43,560 Speaker 1: the car had been stolen, and about ten days after 1140 01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:49,080 Speaker 1: it was stolen, it was confirmed involved in the bank 1141 01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:53,200 Speaker 1: robbery again in South Florida, Okay, because we had a 1142 01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,360 Speaker 1: U S Customs officer at the time going to the 1143 01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:59,200 Speaker 1: bank to cash check. When he's parking his car, he 1144 01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:01,160 Speaker 1: said he looked over at the at the front door 1145 01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:03,280 Speaker 1: of the bank and he's he's two guys dressed in 1146 01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:06,960 Speaker 1: in camouflage clothing with sche masks running out of the bank, 1147 01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:10,760 Speaker 1: you know, and he goes, oh, ship, So he hunkers 1148 01:05:10,800 --> 01:05:13,600 Speaker 1: down and watches and he saw them get into the 1149 01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:17,360 Speaker 1: into the stolen the known stolen car. It was a 1150 01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:20,800 Speaker 1: black mart of Carlo and and he a law enforcement guy, 1151 01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:23,960 Speaker 1: got got the actual tag on the car, you know, 1152 01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:27,040 Speaker 1: so he verified that the tag that he saw the 1153 01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:29,320 Speaker 1: robbery was the tag on the car that was stolen 1154 01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:32,160 Speaker 1: ten days before. So that that's how, that's how this 1155 01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:37,160 Speaker 1: whole you know, like ten or fifteen different attempted and 1156 01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:40,440 Speaker 1: actual robberies came to a head on the morning of 1157 01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:46,360 Speaker 1: April eleven. So you put the vehicle under surveillance. We 1158 01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:51,320 Speaker 1: were out between a hundred and thirtieth Street and a 1159 01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:55,760 Speaker 1: hundred and five Street southwest Miami. We were we set 1160 01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:58,960 Speaker 1: up in four different locations, you know, we set up 1161 01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:02,000 Speaker 1: at four different locations for there have been previous robberies 1162 01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:06,720 Speaker 1: and m We were going to have a static surveillance 1163 01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:09,080 Speaker 1: and then a rolling surveillance, you know, just kind of 1164 01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:12,600 Speaker 1: like to be in the area h in case anything happened. 1165 01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:16,560 Speaker 1: Let me back up a little bit. Um, the supervisor, 1166 01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:20,000 Speaker 1: Gordon McNeill. Uh, he said, hey, let's let's do let's 1167 01:06:20,040 --> 01:06:23,360 Speaker 1: do this. Um, he said, Hey, I have a hunch 1168 01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:27,600 Speaker 1: gonna hit tomorrow tomorrow being Friday this Thursday that he 1169 01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:31,800 Speaker 1: put this out. He said, Uh, the last time they hit, 1170 01:06:32,040 --> 01:06:36,800 Speaker 1: they only got three thousand dollars normally, not three thousand, 1171 01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:40,520 Speaker 1: eight thousand dollars, eight thousand dollars normally when they hit before, 1172 01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:43,320 Speaker 1: they were getting fifty thousand, you know, sixty thou dollars, 1173 01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:46,040 Speaker 1: you know, so they it's a good payday. He said. 1174 01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:50,040 Speaker 1: The last time they hit, they only got eight. And 1175 01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:54,440 Speaker 1: of the time they hit on Fridays, you know, the 1176 01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:57,200 Speaker 1: other the hit on on the other weekdays, you know. 1177 01:06:57,280 --> 01:07:02,600 Speaker 1: So he said, tomorrow's Friday. They their last robbery was 1178 01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:06,520 Speaker 1: was a light hall and he said, it's been two 1179 01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:10,000 Speaker 1: or three weeks, so I think they're due. And that 1180 01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:12,560 Speaker 1: was it. That that's the only information we had, you know, 1181 01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:15,280 Speaker 1: a hunch. So he said, hey, I want to set 1182 01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:17,560 Speaker 1: up surveillance, so you know, he said to anybody who 1183 01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:20,040 Speaker 1: was available to be down there, and we had a 1184 01:07:20,080 --> 01:07:25,440 Speaker 1: briefing in the area at about eight thirty, eight thirty 1185 01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:30,480 Speaker 1: and uh thirty am, and the rest of it, you know, 1186 01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:32,320 Speaker 1: just kind of spread out, you know, and just kind 1187 01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:35,480 Speaker 1: of observed, look looking for the for the black Monty Carlo, 1188 01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:40,640 Speaker 1: looking for white pickup trucks, and low and behold, you know, 1189 01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:43,520 Speaker 1: they they show up and they stolen money. Carl. I mean, 1190 01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:48,680 Speaker 1: it was just unbelievable, you know, I mean, I I honestly, 1191 01:07:49,160 --> 01:07:51,000 Speaker 1: I have to be very kindid you know. I was 1192 01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:53,120 Speaker 1: like thinking, oh my god, this is this is you know, 1193 01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:55,280 Speaker 1: this is crazy. We've got nothing, we got no leave, 1194 01:07:55,480 --> 01:08:00,160 Speaker 1: you know, and uh what happens? Uh they show in 1195 01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:02,360 Speaker 1: the stolen car. I'm thinking, Holy cow, what what what 1196 01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:05,560 Speaker 1: are the odds? I mean, you know, who knows, you know, 1197 01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:06,920 Speaker 1: I mean I don't know what the I mean, I'm 1198 01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:09,360 Speaker 1: not a gambler or anything like that, you know, but 1199 01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:11,560 Speaker 1: I mean think about it, what are the odds? And 1200 01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:14,880 Speaker 1: uh wow? And the rest of it is just kind 1201 01:08:14,880 --> 01:08:19,599 Speaker 1: of like, uh like a like a TV movie really, 1202 01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:21,840 Speaker 1: you know. It's like, you know, the only thing missing 1203 01:08:21,920 --> 01:08:27,639 Speaker 1: was the music. You know, because from the time the 1204 01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:31,120 Speaker 1: case A special agent Ben Grogan called out attention, all 1205 01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:35,160 Speaker 1: units were behind the Black Monte Carlo, Florida tag and 1206 01:08:35,320 --> 01:08:40,920 Speaker 1: t J nine one until he called up felony car stop, 1207 01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:44,600 Speaker 1: let's do it in four minutes. That's I mean, he 1208 01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:47,680 Speaker 1: had four minutes to try to rally the troops to 1209 01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:53,560 Speaker 1: his location and then formulate a plan and then execute 1210 01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:56,439 Speaker 1: that plan. So it's all it's going down very quickly. 1211 01:08:57,000 --> 01:09:00,519 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's I've been real quick, you know, and 1212 01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:02,760 Speaker 1: you know again, you know, one of the criticisms has been, well, 1213 01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:04,320 Speaker 1: you know, you guys should have had a better plan, 1214 01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:05,840 Speaker 1: you know, since you guys knew they were going to 1215 01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:07,720 Speaker 1: be there. No, we didn't, you know, it was just 1216 01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:10,559 Speaker 1: a hunt. And then the other criticism has been, well, 1217 01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:13,320 Speaker 1: you guys should have notified Metro. What we did, We 1218 01:09:13,400 --> 01:09:15,360 Speaker 1: notified that. You know, we worked hand in glove with 1219 01:09:15,400 --> 01:09:18,479 Speaker 1: the Metro robbery, you know, but they had a different 1220 01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:22,080 Speaker 1: assignment on Friday they were working, you know, I mean 1221 01:09:22,160 --> 01:09:25,880 Speaker 1: we handled federal stuff, Metro handles all robberies, you know, 1222 01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:29,479 Speaker 1: they handled you know, you know seven eleven robberies, you know, 1223 01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:31,960 Speaker 1: McDonald robberies and so on and so forth. You know, 1224 01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:38,920 Speaker 1: they had a a series of uh, convenience store robberies 1225 01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:41,160 Speaker 1: like seven eleven, Circle Case and stuff like that. So 1226 01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:42,960 Speaker 1: they said, hey, we can't help you in the morning, 1227 01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:45,559 Speaker 1: you know, because we're working for the midnight on the 1228 01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:48,600 Speaker 1: on the on the convenience store robberie. So you know, 1229 01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:50,599 Speaker 1: we asked them, but they said, no, you know, we can't, 1230 01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:52,920 Speaker 1: you know. So and then we notified the patrol units 1231 01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:59,960 Speaker 1: in the southwest south east area of Miami where we were, 1232 01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:04,320 Speaker 1: and you know, I mean the rest of it is like, well, 1233 01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:07,640 Speaker 1: you know, it's just kind of like fate. You know, 1234 01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:10,479 Speaker 1: you hate to say fate, but you know you have to. 1235 01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:12,080 Speaker 1: You have to take it with a grain of salt, 1236 01:10:12,120 --> 01:10:14,719 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, because you know, even the Bible says, 1237 01:10:14,760 --> 01:10:18,200 Speaker 1: you know, though I saw under the sun, you know, 1238 01:10:18,400 --> 01:10:21,080 Speaker 1: the race is not always to the swift, nor the 1239 01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:23,320 Speaker 1: battle to the strong, you know. But time and chance 1240 01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:25,960 Speaker 1: happened to them all, you know, And and that was it. 1241 01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:29,160 Speaker 1: I mean, it was time and chance. You know. Um, 1242 01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:34,160 Speaker 1: the like I said, four minutes, four minutes, uh, the plan, 1243 01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:38,559 Speaker 1: you know. And then the other criticism that that's been 1244 01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:42,200 Speaker 1: laid on us is well, you guys, you know, you guys, 1245 01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:45,760 Speaker 1: you know had what's the word, what's the word that's 1246 01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:48,200 Speaker 1: been used? You guys didn't do your cash stop, right, 1247 01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:52,360 Speaker 1: you know. And I have to laugh at people. It's like, dude, 1248 01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:56,640 Speaker 1: there's only two types of stops, compliant and non compliant. 1249 01:10:56,840 --> 01:11:00,200 Speaker 1: You know. You know, Compliant means you know, when when 1250 01:11:00,200 --> 01:11:01,960 Speaker 1: you get pulled over on the interstate, you know, by 1251 01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:03,680 Speaker 1: the state trooper. You know, you pull a pull over 1252 01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:05,600 Speaker 1: to the side and take take your hit. You know, 1253 01:11:05,720 --> 01:11:09,160 Speaker 1: you just take the licking, you know. You know the 1254 01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:11,200 Speaker 1: other part is a non compliant, you know, and that's 1255 01:11:11,240 --> 01:11:15,599 Speaker 1: when when you see people on in California speeding away 1256 01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:19,200 Speaker 1: from the cops, you know, so you know that usually 1257 01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:24,040 Speaker 1: ends badly. You know. So our our car stopped turned 1258 01:11:24,040 --> 01:11:26,840 Speaker 1: into a nine compliant car stop, like from the gate, 1259 01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:29,400 Speaker 1: right from the beginning from this for the first second, 1260 01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:31,719 Speaker 1: you know, as soon as they heard a siren boom, 1261 01:11:31,840 --> 01:11:35,000 Speaker 1: they were they were speeding away or trying to speed away, 1262 01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:38,240 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, the rest of it just turned 1263 01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:40,800 Speaker 1: out into bumper cars. You know, we were we were 1264 01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:44,000 Speaker 1: not We were as we were as determined to stop 1265 01:11:44,040 --> 01:11:46,960 Speaker 1: them as they were determined to escape. And you know, 1266 01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:48,880 Speaker 1: we were not going to let them escape because we 1267 01:11:48,920 --> 01:11:51,160 Speaker 1: had no clue who they were. I mean, these guys 1268 01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:54,760 Speaker 1: were like dantems, you know, they were absolutely I mean 1269 01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:57,719 Speaker 1: we we didn't even know they were white guys until 1270 01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:04,240 Speaker 1: like the previous you know, the four weeks up until 1271 01:12:04,320 --> 01:12:08,280 Speaker 1: that time. We had no clue. So you know, like 1272 01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:10,280 Speaker 1: I said, we were not going to let them escape. 1273 01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:12,880 Speaker 1: You know, how long did the car chase go on 1274 01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:17,280 Speaker 1: for before they were stopped? Oh it didn't two blocks. 1275 01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:21,240 Speaker 1: I mean, however, long it takes you to speed down 1276 01:12:21,280 --> 01:12:24,800 Speaker 1: two blocks. I mean it's like, uh, there was four 1277 01:12:24,800 --> 01:12:27,160 Speaker 1: cars involved in in in the in the in the 1278 01:12:27,640 --> 01:12:31,000 Speaker 1: in the immediate car stop. It was three three police cars, 1279 01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:35,320 Speaker 1: three FBI cars and them, and my supervisor was playing 1280 01:12:35,320 --> 01:12:38,760 Speaker 1: catch up behind us, you know, so as as quick 1281 01:12:38,800 --> 01:12:42,080 Speaker 1: as it takes a car to go down a two 1282 01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:46,200 Speaker 1: hundred yards and not even that a hundred and fifty yards, okay, 1283 01:12:46,240 --> 01:12:49,920 Speaker 1: and then crash, you know, crashed into the side of 1284 01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:54,240 Speaker 1: a tree. You know, that's how fast the car stopped. Lasted. 1285 01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:58,840 Speaker 1: It didn't last long, you know, so and you know 1286 01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:01,960 Speaker 1: we had the sirens on, we had our our police 1287 01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:04,599 Speaker 1: lights on. You know, they knew who we were. I mean, 1288 01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:07,120 Speaker 1: there's no no grow big surprise there, you know, sou 1289 01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:11,000 Speaker 1: but they just refused to stop. And as soon as 1290 01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:18,439 Speaker 1: the cars came to rest, uh like maybe um, there 1291 01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:20,280 Speaker 1: was enough time for people to kind of catch our 1292 01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:26,280 Speaker 1: breath and um, you know, shake off the effects of 1293 01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:31,960 Speaker 1: the crashes, because I mean I was actually shocked, physically shocked, 1294 01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:33,880 Speaker 1: you know, because our car hit a hit hit a 1295 01:13:33,960 --> 01:13:39,360 Speaker 1: concrete wall, you know, going about forty you know, you know, 1296 01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:42,880 Speaker 1: and you know I wasn't wearing my seatbelt, you know, 1297 01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:47,600 Speaker 1: by choice, you know. So um, as soon as I 1298 01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:51,320 Speaker 1: shook off the effects of the of the crash, you know, 1299 01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:53,720 Speaker 1: I kind of oriented myself to see what the what's 1300 01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:56,240 Speaker 1: going on where they were, you know, And I immediately 1301 01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:59,080 Speaker 1: figured out where they were, and I started moving moving 1302 01:13:59,080 --> 01:14:02,280 Speaker 1: in that direction, you um. Um. And as soon as 1303 01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:03,920 Speaker 1: I stepped out of the car, you know, gun the 1304 01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:08,880 Speaker 1: gunfight was on, you know, the the two suspects opened 1305 01:14:08,920 --> 01:14:11,920 Speaker 1: fire on you guys. And then yeah, I heard, I 1306 01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:14,840 Speaker 1: heard the supervisor, who was closer than me, I was 1307 01:14:14,880 --> 01:14:21,400 Speaker 1: one of the farthest away when it happened. He he's yelling, FBI, 1308 01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:23,600 Speaker 1: gave yourselves up, give up, give up, you know. And 1309 01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:27,559 Speaker 1: then they responded with um, they said f you. But 1310 01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:31,920 Speaker 1: they said it with gunfire, you know, a career message. 1311 01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:37,120 Speaker 1: They didn't they didn't use words. They use non verbal communication, 1312 01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:40,719 Speaker 1: you know. So that non verbal was a rifle shot. 1313 01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:44,479 Speaker 1: You know. So the second you stepped out of the car, 1314 01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:47,720 Speaker 1: you were in a firefight right there, I mean, and 1315 01:14:47,760 --> 01:14:49,640 Speaker 1: I was about fifty yards away, you know, and I 1316 01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:51,479 Speaker 1: had to I had to decide, Hey, you know, what 1317 01:14:51,560 --> 01:14:55,160 Speaker 1: do I do? I had a shotgun with double up buck, 1318 01:14:55,960 --> 01:14:59,240 Speaker 1: which is you know, on average, the maximum effective page 1319 01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:01,799 Speaker 1: for that is twenty five yards. And I was fifty 1320 01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:05,040 Speaker 1: yards away and my revolver. I mean, I'm pretty good 1321 01:15:05,080 --> 01:15:07,439 Speaker 1: at you know, with a revolver back then I was, 1322 01:15:07,479 --> 01:15:10,040 Speaker 1: you know, with fifty yards. But man, it's like, you know, 1323 01:15:10,160 --> 01:15:13,559 Speaker 1: it's a tough shot. Fifty yards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And 1324 01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:15,240 Speaker 1: it was there were in a jumple of cars. There 1325 01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:16,800 Speaker 1: was just a big pile of cars. You know, I 1326 01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:19,800 Speaker 1: didn't even know where they were. So the gunfights on, 1327 01:15:19,880 --> 01:15:22,120 Speaker 1: you know, and I'm thinking, shoot, you know, there's no 1328 01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:23,960 Speaker 1: way I need to get closer, you know, So I 1329 01:15:24,240 --> 01:15:27,360 Speaker 1: ran across the street and sort of my partner, John Handlon, 1330 01:15:27,439 --> 01:15:30,200 Speaker 1: he ran to the slightly to the right, and I 1331 01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:33,800 Speaker 1: went slightly to the left. His uh, his closest point 1332 01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:35,680 Speaker 1: of cover was forty yards and my closest point of 1333 01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:39,320 Speaker 1: cover was fifty. So it was it was invigorating, you know, 1334 01:15:39,360 --> 01:15:41,559 Speaker 1: it was like, holy sh it, bad man. You know, 1335 01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:46,160 Speaker 1: you know, I'm running, I'm running. I don't even know 1336 01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:48,240 Speaker 1: where the bullets are flying, but you know you could 1337 01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:50,280 Speaker 1: hear them, you know, like zipping by, you know, you 1338 01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:53,599 Speaker 1: know how you know how they sound, you know, you know, 1339 01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:58,880 Speaker 1: like crack cracking sounds, you know, that type of sound 1340 01:15:58,880 --> 01:16:02,839 Speaker 1: they make you. So, like I said, it was pretty interesting, 1341 01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:07,120 Speaker 1: pretty interesting. And I almost made it to the gunfight, 1342 01:16:07,240 --> 01:16:11,479 Speaker 1: you know, almost got there, and then I, um, I 1343 01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:14,800 Speaker 1: took a well, I mean, I know now I took 1344 01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:18,320 Speaker 1: a hit, but at the time that had happened, I 1345 01:16:18,960 --> 01:16:22,920 Speaker 1: didn't know what had happened. I was running forward to 1346 01:16:23,360 --> 01:16:26,400 Speaker 1: reinforce my supervisor on the left side of the of 1347 01:16:26,479 --> 01:16:30,920 Speaker 1: the scene of the of the event, and I was 1348 01:16:31,439 --> 01:16:33,840 Speaker 1: trying to get into his left side, and then all 1349 01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:36,640 Speaker 1: of a sudden, instead of running forward, I was, you know, 1350 01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:39,120 Speaker 1: flat on my back, looking up at the blue sky, 1351 01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:42,240 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, what the heck happened here? You know, 1352 01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:46,640 Speaker 1: I had no clue, and you know, and I it 1353 01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:49,920 Speaker 1: took me several seconds to figure out what the heck 1354 01:16:49,960 --> 01:16:55,639 Speaker 1: was going on, you know, And honestly, it I honestly 1355 01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:59,040 Speaker 1: don't know how long it took me. It could have been. 1356 01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:04,080 Speaker 1: It could have been I don't know, it could have 1357 01:17:04,160 --> 01:17:06,639 Speaker 1: been a minute. I mean, I I mean, I honestly 1358 01:17:06,640 --> 01:17:08,720 Speaker 1: don't know, because at that time, you know, I go 1359 01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:11,680 Speaker 1: into you know, the fight or flight syndrome, you know, 1360 01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:16,679 Speaker 1: the you know, the time slows down you lose your hearing, 1361 01:17:16,840 --> 01:17:20,000 Speaker 1: your motion, you know, you feel like you're moving in 1362 01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:22,720 Speaker 1: slow motion, that type of stuff, you know. So, but 1363 01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:25,720 Speaker 1: I could not figure out I plus my my I 1364 01:17:25,800 --> 01:17:28,640 Speaker 1: lost all my hearing. I had this horrendous ringing in 1365 01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:32,600 Speaker 1: my ears, um, and I couldn't figure out what the 1366 01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:36,519 Speaker 1: heck was going on, you know, And of course bullets 1367 01:17:36,560 --> 01:17:39,040 Speaker 1: was still flying over my head, and I'm thinking, holy shit, 1368 01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:41,760 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I need to do something here. 1369 01:17:41,760 --> 01:17:43,240 Speaker 1: You know. Why the hell you know I said you? 1370 01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:45,880 Speaker 1: I kept calling myself names, you know, because I'm thinking 1371 01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:48,400 Speaker 1: you were stupid. For I thought I had run into 1372 01:17:48,439 --> 01:17:51,519 Speaker 1: the back of Supervisor's car. You know. I was trying 1373 01:17:51,520 --> 01:17:55,320 Speaker 1: to cut the corner too close. That was my perception. 1374 01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:59,280 Speaker 1: I cut the corner too close, and I I clipped 1375 01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:02,559 Speaker 1: it with my right hip and I knocked myself back, 1376 01:18:02,600 --> 01:18:06,559 Speaker 1: you know. So, Uh, I had no sensation to pain, 1377 01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:09,680 Speaker 1: but nothing, I mean no, no, no, no sensation at all, 1378 01:18:09,800 --> 01:18:12,559 Speaker 1: you know. So I'm thinking, what the heck, you know, 1379 01:18:12,880 --> 01:18:15,439 Speaker 1: And it must have been about a minute before I 1380 01:18:15,520 --> 01:18:18,040 Speaker 1: actually made a physical examination of my arm because I 1381 01:18:18,080 --> 01:18:20,840 Speaker 1: was trying to use my left arm to push myself up, 1382 01:18:22,040 --> 01:18:24,439 Speaker 1: and uh, I couldn't not think of what the heck 1383 01:18:24,479 --> 01:18:27,320 Speaker 1: is going on here? You know. So I had to 1384 01:18:27,320 --> 01:18:30,720 Speaker 1: make a visual inspection and that's when I realized I've 1385 01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:32,720 Speaker 1: been shot. You know, I'm thinking, holy count. You know, 1386 01:18:34,479 --> 01:18:36,280 Speaker 1: I said, no, wonder, my arm doesn't work. You know, 1387 01:18:36,320 --> 01:18:41,400 Speaker 1: it's all toast, you know. So um, you know, at 1388 01:18:41,439 --> 01:18:43,400 Speaker 1: that point in time, you know, and people ask you 1389 01:18:43,439 --> 01:18:45,479 Speaker 1: what's your feel like to get shot? Honestly, it was 1390 01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:48,799 Speaker 1: kind of disappointing. You know. It was like no sensation whatsoever, 1391 01:18:49,120 --> 01:18:52,160 Speaker 1: you know, which is nature's way of up saying, hey, dude, 1392 01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:55,519 Speaker 1: you know you're you're you've taken a bad hit, but 1393 01:18:55,600 --> 01:18:57,559 Speaker 1: you know you can still survive. You know, you can 1394 01:18:57,560 --> 01:18:59,599 Speaker 1: still you can still move, you know, And that's what 1395 01:18:59,640 --> 01:19:02,320 Speaker 1: I did. It was it was the human body is 1396 01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:04,960 Speaker 1: a fantastic machine, you know, because that's what happened. I 1397 01:19:05,040 --> 01:19:10,599 Speaker 1: felt no pain, no sensation whatsoever. And uh, physically, mentally, 1398 01:19:10,840 --> 01:19:16,360 Speaker 1: I said, holy I mean I went from apprehension, you know, 1399 01:19:16,400 --> 01:19:19,240 Speaker 1: the closer we got to the subjects and then you know, 1400 01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:22,280 Speaker 1: we were right behind them, and then some you know, 1401 01:19:22,320 --> 01:19:24,400 Speaker 1: somebody said, hey, kept telling any cars, you go from 1402 01:19:24,439 --> 01:19:26,800 Speaker 1: apprehension to a little bit of you know, a little 1403 01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:30,360 Speaker 1: bit more maybe a little fear, and then the car 1404 01:19:30,479 --> 01:19:33,720 Speaker 1: chase starts, you know, and then there's um, you know, 1405 01:19:33,800 --> 01:19:37,280 Speaker 1: crashing and banging, you know, and um you know, then 1406 01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:39,439 Speaker 1: you crash into the wall and then the shots are fire. 1407 01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:41,479 Speaker 1: You know. Then you go into like a real fear 1408 01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:44,599 Speaker 1: and all that's what I would call real fear, I mean, 1409 01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:46,280 Speaker 1: and I'm not ashamed to say it, you know, but 1410 01:19:46,360 --> 01:19:51,680 Speaker 1: that that's what happened. However, when I looked at my arm, 1411 01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:54,439 Speaker 1: you know, and and realized that I'd been shot, then 1412 01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:58,160 Speaker 1: you know, I went into a level above fear, and 1413 01:19:58,200 --> 01:20:01,439 Speaker 1: that was called I would call that error. Okay. I 1414 01:20:01,479 --> 01:20:04,760 Speaker 1: was terrified, you know at the time, and thinking, holy shit, 1415 01:20:04,920 --> 01:20:07,360 Speaker 1: how am I going to survive? How am I going 1416 01:20:07,400 --> 01:20:08,920 Speaker 1: to be able to fight for my life? You know, 1417 01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:11,880 Speaker 1: when when my left arm is completely destroyed me because 1418 01:20:12,360 --> 01:20:15,519 Speaker 1: the rifle round hit me right right square, you know, 1419 01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:18,160 Speaker 1: between the wrist and the elbow. I mean, it just 1420 01:20:18,240 --> 01:20:23,120 Speaker 1: completely just exploded my arm out, you know, the two 1421 01:20:23,160 --> 01:20:25,200 Speaker 1: bones were shattered, you know, it was there was nothing 1422 01:20:25,200 --> 01:20:27,479 Speaker 1: holding my hand up. You know, it was just like 1423 01:20:27,520 --> 01:20:30,280 Speaker 1: a rag doll, you know rag you know, hanging off 1424 01:20:30,280 --> 01:20:33,120 Speaker 1: my arm. You know. So at that point I went 1425 01:20:33,160 --> 01:20:35,240 Speaker 1: from fear to terror and taking ship. You know, it's 1426 01:20:35,280 --> 01:20:37,600 Speaker 1: it's going to be hard enough to you know, to 1427 01:20:37,720 --> 01:20:39,920 Speaker 1: fight for survival with two hands now, but now I 1428 01:20:40,000 --> 01:20:44,240 Speaker 1: only have one, you know. So, but I've had a 1429 01:20:44,240 --> 01:20:47,840 Speaker 1: lot of first aide classes, and part of it was, 1430 01:20:48,160 --> 01:20:52,920 Speaker 1: you know, knowledge. The other part was instinct. I knew instinctively. 1431 01:20:52,960 --> 01:20:55,680 Speaker 1: I knew that I was severely injured, but I was 1432 01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:57,800 Speaker 1: not going to die immediately. I mean I could, I 1433 01:20:57,800 --> 01:21:00,280 Speaker 1: could sense it. I mean, I knew I was eating, 1434 01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:05,120 Speaker 1: but I knew I had several minutes. Okay, I don't know. 1435 01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:06,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how else to explain it. 1436 01:21:06,640 --> 01:21:09,479 Speaker 1: It was an instinct, you know. So I just you know, 1437 01:21:09,640 --> 01:21:11,960 Speaker 1: ignored my arm and I grabbed the shotgun again, and 1438 01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:15,439 Speaker 1: I started, you know, scanning for a threat because there 1439 01:21:15,479 --> 01:21:17,559 Speaker 1: were the shots are still being fired over my head. 1440 01:21:17,600 --> 01:21:20,840 Speaker 1: I'm behind a car at this point, shots still being 1441 01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:22,679 Speaker 1: fired over my head, you know, and I'm thinking, hey, 1442 01:21:22,680 --> 01:21:24,720 Speaker 1: you know this, this guy can still come around the 1443 01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:26,760 Speaker 1: side of the car or roll over the hood of 1444 01:21:26,800 --> 01:21:29,160 Speaker 1: the car and put a bullet in my head, you know. 1445 01:21:29,200 --> 01:21:32,920 Speaker 1: So I said that would be that would be a bad, 1446 01:21:33,040 --> 01:21:36,439 Speaker 1: bad option, you know. So I I started focusing on 1447 01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:39,800 Speaker 1: continuing to scan and and survive, you know. Like I said, 1448 01:21:39,800 --> 01:21:44,120 Speaker 1: my my arm was secondary at that point. And the 1449 01:21:44,160 --> 01:21:49,400 Speaker 1: gunfight lasted so long that the shooting went from it's 1450 01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:52,360 Speaker 1: hard to describe on the phone. The shooting went from 1451 01:21:52,360 --> 01:21:56,040 Speaker 1: my life directly in front of my nose. It started 1452 01:21:56,080 --> 01:21:58,760 Speaker 1: moving from from my nose off to the right, to 1453 01:21:58,840 --> 01:22:00,920 Speaker 1: the right, and farther to the right, and father way 1454 01:22:01,000 --> 01:22:03,200 Speaker 1: farther to the right. So I'm thinking, well, everything's moving 1455 01:22:03,200 --> 01:22:08,000 Speaker 1: to the right. So I started crawling behind the cars 1456 01:22:08,080 --> 01:22:10,360 Speaker 1: to try to see where I could see over on 1457 01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:12,360 Speaker 1: the right side, because I couldn't see anything with the 1458 01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:15,439 Speaker 1: cars in the way. And that's when I saw that 1459 01:22:15,560 --> 01:22:18,439 Speaker 1: my fellow agents, three fellow ages were down, you know, 1460 01:22:18,520 --> 01:22:20,360 Speaker 1: and I didn't know whether they were alive or dead. 1461 01:22:21,120 --> 01:22:23,479 Speaker 1: So I said, oh my god, you know. And at 1462 01:22:23,520 --> 01:22:25,960 Speaker 1: the same time, I saw a pair of legs running 1463 01:22:26,000 --> 01:22:29,519 Speaker 1: from the rear of one of the FBI cars towards 1464 01:22:29,560 --> 01:22:33,960 Speaker 1: the front, and that's when I engaged. I didn't even 1465 01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:36,200 Speaker 1: know who it was, you know, but I knew that 1466 01:22:36,400 --> 01:22:39,000 Speaker 1: my fellow ages. I knew where they who they were, 1467 01:22:39,040 --> 01:22:41,439 Speaker 1: and where they were, so I figured, well, you know, 1468 01:22:41,600 --> 01:22:43,599 Speaker 1: all three ages are down on that side. I said, 1469 01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:45,280 Speaker 1: it has to be a bad guy, you know. So 1470 01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:47,439 Speaker 1: I didn't even look at his face. I just stuck 1471 01:22:47,439 --> 01:22:50,040 Speaker 1: the shot shotgun out with with my right hand on 1472 01:22:50,120 --> 01:22:55,920 Speaker 1: the ground, and I aimed. But to this day, I 1473 01:22:55,920 --> 01:22:59,679 Speaker 1: don't remember firing that round. You know. It's called traumatic amnesia. 1474 01:23:01,160 --> 01:23:04,120 Speaker 1: I was shooting in the direction of three agents, you know, 1475 01:23:04,120 --> 01:23:06,800 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking ship, you know, if I miss the 1476 01:23:08,360 --> 01:23:12,080 Speaker 1: if I missed the shot, my my pellets might actually 1477 01:23:12,160 --> 01:23:14,640 Speaker 1: hit other ages and maybe kill them, you know. So 1478 01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:16,519 Speaker 1: I said, I don't want to be responsible for that, 1479 01:23:16,640 --> 01:23:20,760 Speaker 1: you know. So that's that's what's called traumatic amnesia. You know. 1480 01:23:20,840 --> 01:23:24,000 Speaker 1: So I don't remember making the shot, even though the 1481 01:23:24,120 --> 01:23:28,559 Speaker 1: evidence shows that I had five shots in my shotgun 1482 01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:32,360 Speaker 1: and I fired all five shots. Plus you know, the 1483 01:23:32,360 --> 01:23:35,720 Speaker 1: the subject had shotgun pellet hits to the feet, you know, 1484 01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:44,280 Speaker 1: so it's kind of a moving yeah. So anyway, so 1485 01:23:44,360 --> 01:23:47,040 Speaker 1: then I continue moving to the right, you know, trying 1486 01:23:47,040 --> 01:23:48,639 Speaker 1: to flank them, you know, and then by the time 1487 01:23:48,680 --> 01:23:50,880 Speaker 1: I moved, you know, they were already inside the FBI. 1488 01:23:50,960 --> 01:23:54,200 Speaker 1: They were they were in the FBI car trying to escape. 1489 01:23:54,720 --> 01:23:56,760 Speaker 1: You know. There's no doubt about it in my mind, 1490 01:23:56,800 --> 01:24:00,360 Speaker 1: you know, so the perpetrators were trying to get one 1491 01:24:00,360 --> 01:24:03,439 Speaker 1: of your vehicles and escape. They weren't trying. They were 1492 01:24:03,439 --> 01:24:07,240 Speaker 1: actually in one of the one of the FBI cars. Yeah, 1493 01:24:07,320 --> 01:24:10,040 Speaker 1: and they were they were leaning over the steering column 1494 01:24:10,120 --> 01:24:12,680 Speaker 1: and looking at it like, uh, you know, where the 1495 01:24:12,800 --> 01:24:14,720 Speaker 1: keys and how do we get the keys in there? 1496 01:24:14,760 --> 01:24:17,640 Speaker 1: I mean, what the heck? And immediately became obvious to 1497 01:24:17,640 --> 01:24:19,639 Speaker 1: me that they were trying to escape and the only 1498 01:24:19,760 --> 01:24:22,639 Speaker 1: avenue of escaped the head was to run over three 1499 01:24:22,800 --> 01:24:27,240 Speaker 1: three FBI agents and yeah, who were down around and 1500 01:24:27,320 --> 01:24:29,240 Speaker 1: behind the car. And I said, no way, There's no 1501 01:24:29,400 --> 01:24:32,640 Speaker 1: way that these guys are gonna, you know, gonna accomplish 1502 01:24:32,680 --> 01:24:34,679 Speaker 1: that task because I'm not going to let them because 1503 01:24:34,720 --> 01:24:39,360 Speaker 1: if they back the car up, um, they will definitely 1504 01:24:39,439 --> 01:24:42,000 Speaker 1: if they're not, if the agent aren't dead, they will 1505 01:24:42,040 --> 01:24:43,920 Speaker 1: be dead after they get run over, you know. So 1506 01:24:44,200 --> 01:24:48,160 Speaker 1: I said, no way. So that's when I employed the 1507 01:24:48,520 --> 01:24:52,320 Speaker 1: shotgun one handed, you know, um behind the car, and 1508 01:24:52,479 --> 01:24:54,960 Speaker 1: I tried to put as much as much lead into 1509 01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:57,280 Speaker 1: the compartment of the cars that could, you know. And 1510 01:24:57,840 --> 01:25:02,839 Speaker 1: as it turns out, U, I don't think I fired 1511 01:25:03,320 --> 01:25:06,479 Speaker 1: four rounds into the compartment. I don't think any of 1512 01:25:06,520 --> 01:25:08,639 Speaker 1: the pellets had hit anybody, you know, I don't think 1513 01:25:08,760 --> 01:25:14,800 Speaker 1: because the the forensics, the crimsing UH investigation doesn't show 1514 01:25:14,800 --> 01:25:18,000 Speaker 1: any pellets. I mean, the perpetrators had had bullet wounds 1515 01:25:18,000 --> 01:25:20,519 Speaker 1: on them, but none of them were shocking pellets. But 1516 01:25:20,760 --> 01:25:23,040 Speaker 1: just out of curiosity, how are you able to shock 1517 01:25:23,120 --> 01:25:27,360 Speaker 1: the shotgun one handed? I was sitting on my butt 1518 01:25:27,400 --> 01:25:29,839 Speaker 1: on the ground, and I had my back up against 1519 01:25:29,960 --> 01:25:33,360 Speaker 1: UH one of the cars, and I was on the 1520 01:25:33,439 --> 01:25:38,439 Speaker 1: on the back right side of the car, and I 1521 01:25:39,240 --> 01:25:43,719 Speaker 1: was sitting and I when I fired the first shot, 1522 01:25:43,920 --> 01:25:47,760 Speaker 1: I used the lip of the the bumper as my 1523 01:25:48,040 --> 01:25:55,400 Speaker 1: as my support hand. And when I fired, UM, I 1524 01:25:55,439 --> 01:25:57,599 Speaker 1: was kind of pushed back, and since I was already 1525 01:25:57,640 --> 01:25:59,200 Speaker 1: in a sitting position, I said, well, you know what, 1526 01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:01,559 Speaker 1: this is easy. And I could just you know, lean 1527 01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:03,559 Speaker 1: back against the car let the shot. And I had 1528 01:26:03,560 --> 01:26:05,679 Speaker 1: the shotgun in my right hand. I let it slide 1529 01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:11,880 Speaker 1: through my hand between my legs and my knees were up, 1530 01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:14,040 Speaker 1: you know that my my my legs were flat on 1531 01:26:14,080 --> 01:26:16,679 Speaker 1: the ground straight out. They were up in a crowd position. 1532 01:26:17,120 --> 01:26:20,680 Speaker 1: So I pinched the shotgun with my thighs, used my 1533 01:26:20,800 --> 01:26:23,720 Speaker 1: right hand to rack the action, and then took my 1534 01:26:23,800 --> 01:26:26,559 Speaker 1: right hand back to the trigger guard, rolled over to 1535 01:26:26,600 --> 01:26:29,519 Speaker 1: my left again and placed the shotgun on the lip 1536 01:26:29,560 --> 01:26:33,320 Speaker 1: of the car and fired. You know, that fired four shots. 1537 01:26:34,280 --> 01:26:37,800 Speaker 1: And you know, the rest of it is just kind 1538 01:26:37,800 --> 01:26:40,880 Speaker 1: of like I said. You know, none of the none 1539 01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:44,640 Speaker 1: of the actual rounds had had hit the hit the 1540 01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:48,320 Speaker 1: anyone inside the car, but you expended the rest of 1541 01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:51,519 Speaker 1: the shotgun shells into the into that right. I ran 1542 01:26:51,560 --> 01:26:53,160 Speaker 1: out of m O and at that point in time, 1543 01:26:53,200 --> 01:26:57,639 Speaker 1: you know, I I this first time, I actually took 1544 01:26:57,680 --> 01:27:02,400 Speaker 1: my eyes off the threat. I actually called out to 1545 01:27:03,920 --> 01:27:06,639 Speaker 1: the agents across the street. There were two ages, Gil 1546 01:27:06,680 --> 01:27:11,280 Speaker 1: Arontia and Ron Riser were across the street providing overwatch, 1547 01:27:11,640 --> 01:27:16,680 Speaker 1: kind of like cover fire, and they I yelled at 1548 01:27:16,720 --> 01:27:18,880 Speaker 1: and I said, it's okay, coming over. And they didn't 1549 01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:20,760 Speaker 1: know what the bad guys were, so they were yelling 1550 01:27:20,760 --> 01:27:22,760 Speaker 1: at me to stay down and stay down, you know, 1551 01:27:22,800 --> 01:27:24,400 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking about cops. You know, they don't know, 1552 01:27:24,520 --> 01:27:27,800 Speaker 1: they don't know the gunfights over. You know. Well, unbeinoest 1553 01:27:27,800 --> 01:27:29,640 Speaker 1: to me, it wasn't over because the witness said that 1554 01:27:29,720 --> 01:27:33,400 Speaker 1: the passenger in the driver's side of the car, I mean, 1555 01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:36,880 Speaker 1: the perpetrator on the in the driver's seat, got out 1556 01:27:36,920 --> 01:27:39,680 Speaker 1: of his car and walked within about ten ft of me, 1557 01:27:39,960 --> 01:27:43,720 Speaker 1: you know, behind cover, and fired his revolver at me. 1558 01:27:44,080 --> 01:27:46,000 Speaker 1: You know, but I never heard it because I said 1559 01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:53,000 Speaker 1: before my my hearing was completely toast, you know. So 1560 01:27:53,000 --> 01:27:55,400 Speaker 1: so when I yelled at the ages across the street 1561 01:27:55,439 --> 01:27:58,320 Speaker 1: that it's okay coming over, they it dont on me 1562 01:27:58,360 --> 01:28:01,000 Speaker 1: if they could, holy come, you know, we're going to die, 1563 01:28:01,680 --> 01:28:04,080 Speaker 1: you know, because by that point, I mean it's been 1564 01:28:04,200 --> 01:28:08,000 Speaker 1: like at least three or four minutes since I've been shot, 1565 01:28:08,439 --> 01:28:11,920 Speaker 1: and I was starting to lose consciousness, and I'm thinking, 1566 01:28:12,200 --> 01:28:13,960 Speaker 1: you know, we are going to die here. I mean, 1567 01:28:14,000 --> 01:28:18,880 Speaker 1: there's just no doubt about it. But something interesting happened. 1568 01:28:18,920 --> 01:28:22,040 Speaker 1: You know. It's like I went through, uh, you know, 1569 01:28:22,200 --> 01:28:27,160 Speaker 1: you know the five stages of the five stages of grief, 1570 01:28:27,240 --> 01:28:34,840 Speaker 1: you know, denial, anger, and then um, bargaining, depression, and 1571 01:28:34,920 --> 01:28:38,760 Speaker 1: an acceptance. I went through those except for for depression. 1572 01:28:38,840 --> 01:28:41,719 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I didn't have time to get depressed, 1573 01:28:41,720 --> 01:28:45,320 Speaker 1: you know, but I went through those four you know, denial, anger, 1574 01:28:45,439 --> 01:28:48,320 Speaker 1: bargaining acceptance. I went through those like an you know, 1575 01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:50,920 Speaker 1: it was an accelerated process, you know. I went through 1576 01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:53,599 Speaker 1: that in about probably ten seconds, and then I came 1577 01:28:53,640 --> 01:28:56,160 Speaker 1: to the realization I accepted. I said, hey, you know what, 1578 01:28:56,200 --> 01:28:58,280 Speaker 1: I d your screwed and you're gonna die. I mean, 1579 01:28:58,320 --> 01:29:01,400 Speaker 1: I actually was talking to myself, you know, at the 1580 01:29:01,439 --> 01:29:03,680 Speaker 1: same time I'm passing out, I'm trying to shaking my 1581 01:29:03,760 --> 01:29:08,960 Speaker 1: head to try to stay awake. And it's like something 1582 01:29:09,240 --> 01:29:12,760 Speaker 1: something happened, you know. It's like it's like a metamorphosis. 1583 01:29:12,880 --> 01:29:15,560 Speaker 1: You know. It's like, once I accepted that I was 1584 01:29:15,600 --> 01:29:19,120 Speaker 1: going to die all fear, I was no longer fearful, 1585 01:29:19,280 --> 01:29:21,680 Speaker 1: you know, And I told my friends would say I 1586 01:29:21,760 --> 01:29:25,400 Speaker 1: became the most dangerous man unseen, you know, because what 1587 01:29:25,479 --> 01:29:27,559 Speaker 1: are you going to do somebody who's already accepted death, 1588 01:29:27,680 --> 01:29:31,000 Speaker 1: you know, you know nothing, I mean, what can you 1589 01:29:31,080 --> 01:29:34,960 Speaker 1: do to So I I was fearless, you know, but 1590 01:29:35,200 --> 01:29:38,759 Speaker 1: at the same time, I still held some hope of survival, 1591 01:29:38,880 --> 01:29:42,479 Speaker 1: you know, because I was still able to function. And 1592 01:29:42,600 --> 01:29:45,320 Speaker 1: I looked up and down the street. I looked north, 1593 01:29:45,520 --> 01:29:48,000 Speaker 1: and I looked south, and by that time that the 1594 01:29:48,080 --> 01:29:51,479 Speaker 1: gunfight had lasted so long that there must have been 1595 01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:55,880 Speaker 1: a sort of god twenty fire engines and ambulances on 1596 01:29:56,000 --> 01:29:59,200 Speaker 1: the north side, and another twenty on the south side, 1597 01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:01,519 Speaker 1: but they I set up a perimeter, you know, and 1598 01:30:02,240 --> 01:30:04,639 Speaker 1: that's what also reinforced my thought. You know, these guys 1599 01:30:04,680 --> 01:30:08,000 Speaker 1: don't know the gunfights over, you know, only I know that, 1600 01:30:08,200 --> 01:30:10,080 Speaker 1: you know. So I said, hey, you know, I need 1601 01:30:10,160 --> 01:30:13,160 Speaker 1: to let them know what's over. So the last thing 1602 01:30:13,200 --> 01:30:14,800 Speaker 1: in the world I wanted to do is stand up, 1603 01:30:15,160 --> 01:30:16,960 Speaker 1: because I mean that was just totally weak, you know. 1604 01:30:17,000 --> 01:30:20,200 Speaker 1: I mean I could have no strength left. So I said, 1605 01:30:20,240 --> 01:30:23,639 Speaker 1: what the heck, I'm going to die anyway, so maybe 1606 01:30:23,640 --> 01:30:25,840 Speaker 1: I can do something to survive, you know. So my 1607 01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:30,120 Speaker 1: uh desire to stand up was to show everybody that 1608 01:30:30,200 --> 01:30:32,040 Speaker 1: it was a safe zone. You know, the l C 1609 01:30:32,280 --> 01:30:35,320 Speaker 1: was clear. But at the same time, you know, I'm thinking, 1610 01:30:35,360 --> 01:30:37,040 Speaker 1: you know what, if I'm going to die, I'm going 1611 01:30:37,080 --> 01:30:39,720 Speaker 1: to take those two bastards with me. So when I 1612 01:30:39,760 --> 01:30:42,400 Speaker 1: stood up, I drew my revolver and then I went 1613 01:30:42,479 --> 01:30:45,040 Speaker 1: around the back of the car and I started moving 1614 01:30:45,120 --> 01:30:48,800 Speaker 1: in on the on the subjects inside the FBI car. 1615 01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:53,200 Speaker 1: So I was kind of shuffling along, you know. I mean, 1616 01:30:53,360 --> 01:30:57,439 Speaker 1: people's witnesses said that I actually shut uh kind of 1617 01:30:57,520 --> 01:31:01,840 Speaker 1: half jogged half and wasn't a run, but it wasn't 1618 01:31:01,880 --> 01:31:04,759 Speaker 1: a walk either, they said. I kind of like shuffled forward, 1619 01:31:04,840 --> 01:31:07,320 Speaker 1: you know, as quickly as I could. I don't remember 1620 01:31:07,360 --> 01:31:10,280 Speaker 1: it that way. I just remember, you know, standing up, 1621 01:31:10,360 --> 01:31:13,559 Speaker 1: setting a position and firing, and then taking a couple 1622 01:31:13,640 --> 01:31:18,519 Speaker 1: more steps forward, firing, moving forward, setting, firing. And I 1623 01:31:18,600 --> 01:31:21,760 Speaker 1: did that six times and until I got to the 1624 01:31:21,840 --> 01:31:25,040 Speaker 1: actual window of the car, you know, which, and and 1625 01:31:25,520 --> 01:31:29,240 Speaker 1: I actually, you know, those shots actually hit, you know, 1626 01:31:29,840 --> 01:31:32,400 Speaker 1: I fired six shots, and five shots hit the subjects, 1627 01:31:32,920 --> 01:31:36,599 Speaker 1: which ended up killing them. You know. So at that point, 1628 01:31:36,720 --> 01:31:38,880 Speaker 1: the guys across the street had run. They saw me 1629 01:31:39,000 --> 01:31:41,559 Speaker 1: stand up, so they ran across. They had like fifty 1630 01:31:41,640 --> 01:31:45,360 Speaker 1: yards you know to run across, and then the additional 1631 01:31:45,760 --> 01:31:49,639 Speaker 1: like fifteen yards from you know, to the actual subjects. 1632 01:31:50,200 --> 01:31:52,439 Speaker 1: So they ran across the street to reinforce me. And 1633 01:31:52,600 --> 01:31:54,759 Speaker 1: when I fired my last shot, you know, they actually 1634 01:31:54,800 --> 01:31:58,439 Speaker 1: showed I saw them, felt them on either side of me, 1635 01:31:58,720 --> 01:32:03,640 Speaker 1: and to reinforce in case anything happened. And they said, ed, 1636 01:32:03,760 --> 01:32:06,600 Speaker 1: put your gun away, it's over, you know, and you know, 1637 01:32:08,080 --> 01:32:10,240 Speaker 1: you know I heard that, you know, and I put 1638 01:32:10,320 --> 01:32:13,000 Speaker 1: my gun in my hoster and then I tell people, 1639 01:32:13,080 --> 01:32:16,519 Speaker 1: I said, training, training, training, When I put my gun. 1640 01:32:16,560 --> 01:32:18,840 Speaker 1: In my host story, I actually snapped the hoster, you know, 1641 01:32:18,960 --> 01:32:24,120 Speaker 1: to secure the weapon and the host. Yeah, you know, 1642 01:32:24,320 --> 01:32:26,360 Speaker 1: just like training. You know, it's like, uh, you know, 1643 01:32:26,479 --> 01:32:28,439 Speaker 1: you do it a hundred thousand times, you know, it 1644 01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:31,960 Speaker 1: just comes automatically, you know. So but after that, I 1645 01:32:32,200 --> 01:32:35,280 Speaker 1: took about four or five steps backwards, kind of like stumbling, 1646 01:32:35,479 --> 01:32:37,160 Speaker 1: you know, and then I fell on my button and 1647 01:32:37,280 --> 01:32:39,240 Speaker 1: I was, you know, flat out on the street, you know, 1648 01:32:39,360 --> 01:32:41,880 Speaker 1: and and the rest of it it was over. At 1649 01:32:41,920 --> 01:32:43,920 Speaker 1: that point, man, a pandemonium had you know. I mean, 1650 01:32:44,040 --> 01:32:49,040 Speaker 1: I actually came down off the of the adrenaline, you know, 1651 01:32:49,280 --> 01:32:51,519 Speaker 1: and my hearing started coming back, you know. And at 1652 01:32:51,560 --> 01:32:55,479 Speaker 1: that point, you know, an interesting thing happened. Um. You 1653 01:32:55,560 --> 01:32:57,720 Speaker 1: know I mentioned before that I didn't I didn't feel 1654 01:32:57,720 --> 01:33:01,280 Speaker 1: any pain, and I didn't even know I'd been shot stuffed. Man, 1655 01:33:01,360 --> 01:33:08,160 Speaker 1: when the adrenaline left, Oh my god, I was in agony. 1656 01:33:09,120 --> 01:33:11,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I was like, I mean, the medics gave 1657 01:33:11,320 --> 01:33:13,880 Speaker 1: me to two shots of morphine, you know, and they 1658 01:33:13,960 --> 01:33:16,200 Speaker 1: put my arm in a in a in one of 1659 01:33:16,280 --> 01:33:21,760 Speaker 1: those balloons what do they call it, splints, and uh 1660 01:33:22,280 --> 01:33:24,320 Speaker 1: kind of immobilized the arm, you know, to keep it 1661 01:33:24,360 --> 01:33:28,320 Speaker 1: from moving and one of them was walking by, you know, 1662 01:33:28,400 --> 01:33:30,800 Speaker 1: and I grabbed him by the ankle with my right arm, 1663 01:33:30,880 --> 01:33:34,040 Speaker 1: and I grabbed him his candy. So I said, give 1664 01:33:34,120 --> 01:33:40,439 Speaker 1: me another shot. I remember that. I felt like a 1665 01:33:40,600 --> 01:33:43,200 Speaker 1: damn addict. You give me another shot. I need another hit, 1666 01:33:43,320 --> 01:33:46,719 Speaker 1: you know. So and the guy said, dude, we've given 1667 01:33:46,760 --> 01:33:50,479 Speaker 1: you enough to put out a horse. If we give 1668 01:33:50,520 --> 01:33:53,839 Speaker 1: you another shot, you're gonna die the way this pain's 1669 01:33:53,880 --> 01:33:59,320 Speaker 1: going ship, you know. But you know, they they took 1670 01:33:59,360 --> 01:34:00,760 Speaker 1: care of me right way, and they put me in 1671 01:34:00,960 --> 01:34:03,120 Speaker 1: on a gurney and took me in in an ambulance 1672 01:34:03,200 --> 01:34:05,080 Speaker 1: to the hospital. But you know, it wasn't until I 1673 01:34:05,120 --> 01:34:06,840 Speaker 1: got to the hospital that they actually gave me some 1674 01:34:06,960 --> 01:34:09,439 Speaker 1: good stuff. I guess the the medics didn't have the 1675 01:34:09,479 --> 01:34:12,559 Speaker 1: good stuff, man, because I got to the hospital. It's like, man, 1676 01:34:13,080 --> 01:34:15,680 Speaker 1: it's hardly any pain, you know after that, you know, 1677 01:34:16,439 --> 01:34:18,360 Speaker 1: but man, you know when the when when that pain 1678 01:34:18,479 --> 01:34:21,840 Speaker 1: killer wars off, it's horrible, you know, absolutely horrible. So 1679 01:34:22,000 --> 01:34:24,000 Speaker 1: you had that, I mean that's pretty much the end. 1680 01:34:24,080 --> 01:34:27,080 Speaker 1: You know. It's kind of a pretty pretty quick, down 1681 01:34:27,120 --> 01:34:29,640 Speaker 1: and dirty, you know story. You know. So and you 1682 01:34:29,760 --> 01:34:33,840 Speaker 1: had eliminated the two perpetrators. What was the outcome for 1683 01:34:33,920 --> 01:34:36,720 Speaker 1: the three FBI agents that you saw down in front 1684 01:34:36,760 --> 01:34:40,679 Speaker 1: of the vehicle. That's the unfortunate part. On that side 1685 01:34:40,680 --> 01:34:44,559 Speaker 1: of the vehicle. Ben Grogan was was dead on the scene, 1686 01:34:44,920 --> 01:34:48,920 Speaker 1: and and Jerry Dove was dead on the scene. And 1687 01:34:49,200 --> 01:34:52,439 Speaker 1: the third agent, John Hannon, he survived. He was shot 1688 01:34:53,479 --> 01:34:57,599 Speaker 1: once through the gun hand and once in each stye, 1689 01:34:57,680 --> 01:35:00,880 Speaker 1: so he was shot three times. So uh, you know, 1690 01:35:01,000 --> 01:35:04,400 Speaker 1: you know what rifle rounds can do to a human, 1691 01:35:04,720 --> 01:35:07,479 Speaker 1: you know body. I mean it's pretty devastating. I mean 1692 01:35:08,880 --> 01:35:12,760 Speaker 1: those hits, Uh, those rifle hits are damn devastating, you know. 1693 01:35:12,880 --> 01:35:17,880 Speaker 1: And our supervisor Gordon mcneio, he was shot through the 1694 01:35:18,520 --> 01:35:21,920 Speaker 1: you know, next to the neck on the shoulder and 1695 01:35:22,080 --> 01:35:24,320 Speaker 1: he was ducking for cover and he was shot. You know, 1696 01:35:26,000 --> 01:35:29,920 Speaker 1: the round went down through his his torso you know, 1697 01:35:30,040 --> 01:35:32,720 Speaker 1: from on the right side and went down and hit 1698 01:35:32,800 --> 01:35:35,320 Speaker 1: his spinal cord, ricocheted off his spinal cord and then 1699 01:35:36,479 --> 01:35:40,280 Speaker 1: uh was kicked back to the right and and shattered 1700 01:35:40,320 --> 01:35:43,479 Speaker 1: into his right lung, you know. So uh, he was 1701 01:35:43,560 --> 01:35:47,920 Speaker 1: probably the worst hit, uh, you know with a rifle round. 1702 01:35:48,040 --> 01:35:50,280 Speaker 1: You know. So he was in the hospital for for 1703 01:35:50,400 --> 01:35:53,880 Speaker 1: three weeks in recovering. You know. Obviously the lunghead was 1704 01:35:54,200 --> 01:35:58,120 Speaker 1: pretty pretty significant, you know. So, but in total, there 1705 01:35:58,160 --> 01:36:02,920 Speaker 1: were eight FBI agents and two bank robbers um in 1706 01:36:03,120 --> 01:36:09,160 Speaker 1: an area I would say, uh about thirty ft by 1707 01:36:09,200 --> 01:36:12,280 Speaker 1: thirty ft. You know. It wasn't a big area, you know, 1708 01:36:12,400 --> 01:36:14,599 Speaker 1: and people think, oh, it's like a big parking land 1709 01:36:14,640 --> 01:36:16,880 Speaker 1: gun right now. It was like it was up close 1710 01:36:16,920 --> 01:36:20,040 Speaker 1: and right on top of each other. Yeah, and it 1711 01:36:20,160 --> 01:36:22,120 Speaker 1: was thirty ft by thirty ft for the majority of 1712 01:36:22,160 --> 01:36:24,120 Speaker 1: the shots were fired, and there were a hundred and 1713 01:36:24,160 --> 01:36:28,840 Speaker 1: fifty shots fired in in about four or five minutes, 1714 01:36:28,880 --> 01:36:31,640 Speaker 1: you know, so it was pretty intense. Man. It was 1715 01:36:31,720 --> 01:36:36,040 Speaker 1: like being inside of a building, you know. Yeah, that's inside, 1716 01:36:36,120 --> 01:36:38,360 Speaker 1: like the room we're recording in right now. I mean 1717 01:36:38,439 --> 01:36:41,360 Speaker 1: it's a very small area. Yeah, yeah, obviously, you know, 1718 01:36:41,439 --> 01:36:42,880 Speaker 1: you had a lot of obstacles. You had a lot 1719 01:36:42,920 --> 01:36:45,400 Speaker 1: of cars, you know, a lot of cover, you know. 1720 01:36:45,880 --> 01:36:50,639 Speaker 1: But I'm telling you I was shot from a distance 1721 01:36:50,680 --> 01:36:55,960 Speaker 1: of about oh the width of a car plus another 1722 01:36:56,120 --> 01:36:59,200 Speaker 1: three feet that would be what twelve ft. I was 1723 01:36:59,240 --> 01:37:03,400 Speaker 1: shot from twelve ft away. Gordon McNeil were shooting at 1724 01:37:03,439 --> 01:37:06,920 Speaker 1: the at the driver from a car with away and 1725 01:37:07,000 --> 01:37:09,360 Speaker 1: the way he had his arm extended out, so he 1726 01:37:09,560 --> 01:37:13,479 Speaker 1: was probably shooting at the driver um from about his 1727 01:37:13,960 --> 01:37:17,240 Speaker 1: weapon was about five or six feet from from the driver. 1728 01:37:17,920 --> 01:37:21,040 Speaker 1: The problem was, you know, if you've been in Florida 1729 01:37:21,080 --> 01:37:23,320 Speaker 1: at all, you know, all those all those cars have 1730 01:37:23,439 --> 01:37:27,360 Speaker 1: tinted windows. And it's not not the glass it's tinted, 1731 01:37:27,479 --> 01:37:31,759 Speaker 1: it's the plastic that's on the glass. So when rowns 1732 01:37:31,800 --> 01:37:36,120 Speaker 1: were going through, it wouldn't shatter. I mean, the glass 1733 01:37:36,200 --> 01:37:38,439 Speaker 1: was shattered, but it wouldn't it wouldn't fall down, you know. 1734 01:37:38,600 --> 01:37:41,640 Speaker 1: So there's plastic material just kept kept the glass up. 1735 01:37:42,200 --> 01:37:46,240 Speaker 1: And you know, in some cases, you know, ten fifteen 1736 01:37:46,360 --> 01:37:49,640 Speaker 1: rounds would have to go through a window before it 1737 01:37:49,680 --> 01:37:52,800 Speaker 1: would collapse, you know, because you know, that's that's how 1738 01:37:52,880 --> 01:37:56,960 Speaker 1: the film. You know that that tinting film it works. 1739 01:37:57,760 --> 01:38:01,280 Speaker 1: So when it started taking hit, it's it was spider web. 1740 01:38:01,520 --> 01:38:04,160 Speaker 1: So you really couldn't see clearly into the car, you know. 1741 01:38:04,320 --> 01:38:07,479 Speaker 1: So even though he was about six seven feet away 1742 01:38:07,479 --> 01:38:09,760 Speaker 1: from the subject, the subject was hunkered down, you know, 1743 01:38:09,880 --> 01:38:12,960 Speaker 1: and he wasn't you know, presenting a big target. He 1744 01:38:13,080 --> 01:38:15,439 Speaker 1: was hunkered down, you know, so it was hard to hit. 1745 01:38:15,880 --> 01:38:19,040 Speaker 1: Plus he's taken incoming fire too, you know, so that 1746 01:38:19,200 --> 01:38:22,120 Speaker 1: kind of kind of puts a damper on things. And 1747 01:38:22,560 --> 01:38:25,760 Speaker 1: I imagined that you had to have reconstructive surgery on 1748 01:38:25,840 --> 01:38:33,520 Speaker 1: your arm. Mm hmm. I had a total of seven surgeries, 1749 01:38:33,760 --> 01:38:36,519 Speaker 1: seven major surgeries and three minor ones. I think I 1750 01:38:36,560 --> 01:38:39,320 Speaker 1: had a totally you know, if you count everything, uh 1751 01:38:39,439 --> 01:38:43,519 Speaker 1: tent tent surgeries over the course of two years and 1752 01:38:43,600 --> 01:38:47,400 Speaker 1: three months. You know, the last part of the recovery 1753 01:38:47,479 --> 01:38:49,519 Speaker 1: was was just recovery, you know. But in the first 1754 01:38:49,600 --> 01:38:54,000 Speaker 1: year I had about ten surgeries and in total, and 1755 01:38:54,240 --> 01:38:58,920 Speaker 1: this shootout, of course became a case study for you know, 1756 01:38:59,080 --> 01:39:03,040 Speaker 1: everything that came after and really changed tactics and weapons 1757 01:39:03,120 --> 01:39:07,560 Speaker 1: and and and really was a learning moment, you know, 1758 01:39:07,640 --> 01:39:10,479 Speaker 1: for the law enforcement community. But I was wondering, if 1759 01:39:10,479 --> 01:39:12,479 Speaker 1: you could tell us yourself, I mean, what what was 1760 01:39:12,520 --> 01:39:15,320 Speaker 1: the fallout um from all of this where you guys 1761 01:39:15,360 --> 01:39:18,160 Speaker 1: hailed as heroes, where you decried as as guys who 1762 01:39:18,240 --> 01:39:21,560 Speaker 1: screwed up or botched the job. I mean, I just wondering, like, 1763 01:39:21,680 --> 01:39:24,960 Speaker 1: how how did the law enforcement community and the bureau 1764 01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:30,400 Speaker 1: um regard this in the immediate aftermath both in the 1765 01:39:30,479 --> 01:39:32,599 Speaker 1: immediate aftermath, it was both you know, It's like, hey, 1766 01:39:32,680 --> 01:39:34,720 Speaker 1: you know, they screwed up somehow and blah blah blah. 1767 01:39:34,800 --> 01:39:37,200 Speaker 1: But see when all the facts came out, then you know, 1768 01:39:37,240 --> 01:39:40,400 Speaker 1: people started changing their tune, you know, because it was 1769 01:39:42,720 --> 01:39:45,160 Speaker 1: it was nothing short of heroic, you know, I mean, 1770 01:39:45,360 --> 01:39:49,600 Speaker 1: nobody took a step back. You know, um outgunned. You know, 1771 01:39:49,800 --> 01:39:53,320 Speaker 1: there's a big thing about outgun you know. You know 1772 01:39:53,800 --> 01:39:57,320 Speaker 1: there's a line in one of the spaghetti westerns with 1773 01:39:57,920 --> 01:40:02,360 Speaker 1: Clint Eastwood. I think it U fistful of dollars or 1774 01:40:02,479 --> 01:40:05,120 Speaker 1: something like that, when when one of the Mexican bandits, 1775 01:40:05,200 --> 01:40:09,479 Speaker 1: you know, is is challenging Clint, he says, hey, when 1776 01:40:09,560 --> 01:40:12,040 Speaker 1: a man with a forty five meets a man with 1777 01:40:12,120 --> 01:40:14,920 Speaker 1: a rifle, the man with the forty five as a 1778 01:40:15,040 --> 01:40:18,559 Speaker 1: dead man. You know. And that's true if you're going up, 1779 01:40:19,120 --> 01:40:22,920 Speaker 1: if you're going up against an assault rifle with a pistol, man, 1780 01:40:23,080 --> 01:40:30,559 Speaker 1: you're your toast. May Now, you know, if you've got 1781 01:40:30,640 --> 01:40:35,000 Speaker 1: four people with guns, you know, spread out, you know, 1782 01:40:35,600 --> 01:40:38,200 Speaker 1: in a in a semi circle, you know, or something 1783 01:40:38,280 --> 01:40:41,120 Speaker 1: like that, you know, or behind good cover against one 1784 01:40:41,160 --> 01:40:43,280 Speaker 1: guy with an assult rifle, then you know, then you 1785 01:40:43,320 --> 01:40:45,320 Speaker 1: know you've got a pretty good chance. You know, you 1786 01:40:45,479 --> 01:40:48,640 Speaker 1: you maneuver you you you you know, you you have 1787 01:40:48,800 --> 01:40:51,400 Speaker 1: to be smart you know about it. So there were 1788 01:40:51,479 --> 01:40:53,320 Speaker 1: eight of us and two of them, you know, So 1789 01:40:53,560 --> 01:40:55,120 Speaker 1: that's what it ended up being. You know, it's like, 1790 01:40:55,800 --> 01:40:57,960 Speaker 1: you know, four or four guys with handguns, you know, 1791 01:40:59,360 --> 01:41:02,599 Speaker 1: against one guy with with an assault rifle. But I'm 1792 01:41:02,640 --> 01:41:05,280 Speaker 1: telling you, boy, you know, it's like that assault rifle. 1793 01:41:05,360 --> 01:41:07,880 Speaker 1: When you're hit with an assault rifle, man, you know it, 1794 01:41:08,840 --> 01:41:13,240 Speaker 1: there is no doubt about the fact that you've been hit. 1795 01:41:13,760 --> 01:41:16,800 Speaker 1: You know. Also, so I mean it cuts growth ways. 1796 01:41:16,840 --> 01:41:19,960 Speaker 1: You know. The philosophy is like you know, maybe maybe not. 1797 01:41:20,120 --> 01:41:22,240 Speaker 1: You know, it's like, you know, is it even not 1798 01:41:22,400 --> 01:41:28,519 Speaker 1: even so that part of it caused the and and 1799 01:41:28,800 --> 01:41:30,840 Speaker 1: that's where one thing, that's one thing where I really 1800 01:41:30,880 --> 01:41:33,960 Speaker 1: praised the Bureau, you know, the FBI, because they saw 1801 01:41:34,080 --> 01:41:37,200 Speaker 1: that and they immediately asked for a Congress for for funding. 1802 01:41:38,960 --> 01:41:41,439 Speaker 1: By the end of by the end of my recovery, 1803 01:41:42,880 --> 01:41:48,480 Speaker 1: they had purchased UH one MP five semi automatic submachine 1804 01:41:48,520 --> 01:41:55,200 Speaker 1: gun with thirty round magazines and or one UH saw 1805 01:41:55,240 --> 01:42:00,840 Speaker 1: it off shotgun for for every two agents. So every 1806 01:42:00,920 --> 01:42:06,720 Speaker 1: team of two would have a submachine gun or a shotgun. Okay, Additionally, 1807 01:42:07,560 --> 01:42:12,000 Speaker 1: they authorized the personal purchase, personal carry of semi automatic 1808 01:42:12,840 --> 01:42:17,120 Speaker 1: assault rifles like the A R fifteens and stuff. So 1809 01:42:17,840 --> 01:42:19,799 Speaker 1: I went out and got myself an A R fifteen 1810 01:42:19,880 --> 01:42:22,640 Speaker 1: once I recovered, you know, so, you know, and I 1811 01:42:22,720 --> 01:42:26,400 Speaker 1: got about, you know, twelve thirty round magazines, you know 1812 01:42:27,240 --> 01:42:29,920 Speaker 1: that I carried in a in a in a carry pouch, 1813 01:42:30,000 --> 01:42:32,320 Speaker 1: you know, one of those like drop bag pouches, you know. So, 1814 01:42:33,439 --> 01:42:38,280 Speaker 1: and they started training swat more swat guys, you know. 1815 01:42:38,640 --> 01:42:41,479 Speaker 1: And by the way, I forgot to mention that we 1816 01:42:41,560 --> 01:42:45,040 Speaker 1: had we had three SWAT guys on on surveillance and 1817 01:42:45,439 --> 01:42:47,560 Speaker 1: were they were, you know, time and chance. You know, 1818 01:42:48,400 --> 01:42:51,040 Speaker 1: the race is not always to the swift. Those three 1819 01:42:51,120 --> 01:42:54,519 Speaker 1: SWAT agents were not involved in the car stop. They 1820 01:42:54,760 --> 01:42:58,280 Speaker 1: were farther south and they were responding to the call, 1821 01:42:58,479 --> 01:43:00,840 Speaker 1: you know, saying, hey, Ben, where are you. We're a 1822 01:43:01,000 --> 01:43:04,320 Speaker 1: hundred and twentieth street, you know, car stop. Let's let's 1823 01:43:04,360 --> 01:43:07,040 Speaker 1: do it. They did not get to the to the 1824 01:43:07,080 --> 01:43:10,400 Speaker 1: shootout until it was over. One agent had a fully 1825 01:43:10,400 --> 01:43:15,879 Speaker 1: automatic MP five, the second agent had a twelve gage shotgun, 1826 01:43:16,680 --> 01:43:21,479 Speaker 1: and the third agent, you know, had an M sixteen. Okay, 1827 01:43:21,560 --> 01:43:26,120 Speaker 1: which would have changed everything, would I would have changed everything. Absolutely. 1828 01:43:26,560 --> 01:43:29,599 Speaker 1: He had an M sixteen rifle swat guy, fully auto, 1829 01:43:29,680 --> 01:43:32,720 Speaker 1: full auto. You know, he had several magazines. But by 1830 01:43:32,760 --> 01:43:34,720 Speaker 1: the time he got to the scene, the confight was over, 1831 01:43:35,360 --> 01:43:37,000 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, it's just I mean, it's just 1832 01:43:37,320 --> 01:43:39,880 Speaker 1: eight you know, time and chance. Now that part of it, 1833 01:43:39,960 --> 01:43:41,519 Speaker 1: you know, the weapon side of it, you know, it 1834 01:43:41,640 --> 01:43:44,320 Speaker 1: went I mean, the Bureau went out and got you know, 1835 01:43:44,680 --> 01:43:49,920 Speaker 1: as as much firepower as as was logical. You know, 1836 01:43:50,040 --> 01:43:52,200 Speaker 1: people say, well, you know, if he had a choice, 1837 01:43:52,400 --> 01:43:54,160 Speaker 1: what would you carry if well, I'd carry a full 1838 01:43:54,200 --> 01:43:57,360 Speaker 1: auto M sixteen. But the problem is, you know, as 1839 01:43:57,439 --> 01:44:00,960 Speaker 1: law enforcement agencies and officers, we have to be responsible. 1840 01:44:01,080 --> 01:44:04,920 Speaker 1: You know, you cannot carry a forty four magnum because 1841 01:44:05,280 --> 01:44:07,080 Speaker 1: if you if you've shoot it, I mean, where the 1842 01:44:07,160 --> 01:44:09,000 Speaker 1: hell's that Around're gonna stop And it's going to stop 1843 01:44:09,040 --> 01:44:12,640 Speaker 1: in Kansas by the time it stops, you know, So 1844 01:44:12,920 --> 01:44:15,680 Speaker 1: we have to be responsible for our our rounds. You know. 1845 01:44:15,800 --> 01:44:18,280 Speaker 1: It's not like you know, some of these cities you 1846 01:44:18,320 --> 01:44:21,240 Speaker 1: know where you hear people some poor child gets shot 1847 01:44:21,320 --> 01:44:24,120 Speaker 1: through a window, you know, because some gang banger you know, 1848 01:44:25,400 --> 01:44:29,000 Speaker 1: fired pirt of pistol two blocks away. You know, so 1849 01:44:29,880 --> 01:44:31,920 Speaker 1: so we we we do have to be responsible in 1850 01:44:32,000 --> 01:44:38,960 Speaker 1: that regard the other change where the huge change was ballistics. Okay, ballistics, ballistics, 1851 01:44:39,000 --> 01:44:44,000 Speaker 1: ballistics okay, Jerry Dove shot Platt in like in the 1852 01:44:44,120 --> 01:44:47,439 Speaker 1: first minute and a half of the shooting. He shot 1853 01:44:47,560 --> 01:44:51,600 Speaker 1: him through the right bicept. The round hit his the 1854 01:44:51,680 --> 01:44:56,439 Speaker 1: side of his chest wall, penetrated his lung and it 1855 01:44:56,600 --> 01:44:58,680 Speaker 1: was directly in line with his heart. There was a 1856 01:44:58,960 --> 01:45:02,960 Speaker 1: great shot. I call it a million dollar shot. But 1857 01:45:04,360 --> 01:45:07,680 Speaker 1: I'm told that the bullet that he fired, you know, 1858 01:45:07,720 --> 01:45:11,840 Speaker 1: it was a hundred and fifteen grain uh silver tip, 1859 01:45:11,920 --> 01:45:14,400 Speaker 1: hollow point, you know, it just it was too light, 1860 01:45:14,520 --> 01:45:17,640 Speaker 1: It was too light of around. If it had penetrated 1861 01:45:17,680 --> 01:45:20,080 Speaker 1: another inch and a half two inches, it would have 1862 01:45:20,160 --> 01:45:22,799 Speaker 1: hit him in the heart. But it didn't. It stopped, 1863 01:45:23,200 --> 01:45:26,839 Speaker 1: you know, just short of the heart. And the gunfight 1864 01:45:26,920 --> 01:45:29,439 Speaker 1: could have been could have been way different otherwise, you know. 1865 01:45:29,680 --> 01:45:34,280 Speaker 1: But you know the ballistics thing. You know, people said, well, 1866 01:45:34,360 --> 01:45:36,640 Speaker 1: it hit him, it severed his brake, you'll, artery in 1867 01:45:36,720 --> 01:45:40,160 Speaker 1: his right arm, and it it it exploded his lung. 1868 01:45:40,560 --> 01:45:45,760 Speaker 1: You know, he's leading internally, okay. But the argument has 1869 01:45:45,800 --> 01:45:50,200 Speaker 1: been was that a survivabal or non survivable hit, okay, 1870 01:45:50,720 --> 01:45:53,479 Speaker 1: and it's really a mood point, you know. Uh, he 1871 01:45:53,680 --> 01:45:56,559 Speaker 1: ended up dying, okay, I mean, he got some extra 1872 01:45:56,680 --> 01:46:00,679 Speaker 1: hits on him, you know, but it doesn't really matter 1873 01:46:01,080 --> 01:46:04,400 Speaker 1: whether it was survivable or nonsurvivable, because from that point 1874 01:46:04,439 --> 01:46:07,439 Speaker 1: when he's hit through the lung, he continues to fight 1875 01:46:08,280 --> 01:46:12,360 Speaker 1: and he will shoot. Uh, he will shoot Jerry Dove 1876 01:46:12,439 --> 01:46:16,160 Speaker 1: twice and the second time Astonomy kills him. He shoots 1877 01:46:16,240 --> 01:46:20,360 Speaker 1: John Hanlon three times, he shoots he shot Ben Grogan 1878 01:46:20,439 --> 01:46:23,640 Speaker 1: twice and and kills Ben Grogan. So even though he 1879 01:46:23,760 --> 01:46:27,680 Speaker 1: was shot that quote unquote nonsurvivable hit, he continued to 1880 01:46:27,800 --> 01:46:30,840 Speaker 1: fight and he ends up shooting and three agents and 1881 01:46:30,920 --> 01:46:34,479 Speaker 1: he kills two of them. Okay, at some point in 1882 01:46:34,560 --> 01:46:37,400 Speaker 1: time it really does become a nonsurvivable hit because at 1883 01:46:37,439 --> 01:46:40,679 Speaker 1: autopsy they said he had lost about of his fort 1884 01:46:41,680 --> 01:46:44,000 Speaker 1: of the blood of his system. Okay, that's called a 1885 01:46:44,360 --> 01:46:47,920 Speaker 1: class four hematoma or some some something like that. AD 1886 01:46:47,960 --> 01:46:50,800 Speaker 1: forget what the word is. But when they say, hey, 1887 01:46:50,840 --> 01:46:53,679 Speaker 1: when you use, when you lose the blood in your system, 1888 01:46:53,720 --> 01:46:57,439 Speaker 1: you're you're running real close to not being able to 1889 01:46:57,520 --> 01:47:00,920 Speaker 1: get revived that you know, I mean your your blood. 1890 01:47:01,040 --> 01:47:03,840 Speaker 1: You know, your your system just starts shutting down, you know. 1891 01:47:04,000 --> 01:47:06,360 Speaker 1: So the ballistics part of it, you know that that 1892 01:47:07,479 --> 01:47:10,000 Speaker 1: they did a lot of research, you know into you know, 1893 01:47:10,120 --> 01:47:12,800 Speaker 1: what bullets really do inside a human target. You know, 1894 01:47:12,880 --> 01:47:18,439 Speaker 1: so the that changed now the other the other thing 1895 01:47:18,520 --> 01:47:20,040 Speaker 1: that a lot of people and I just went to 1896 01:47:20,160 --> 01:47:22,599 Speaker 1: a lecture. I I lectured a group of law enforcement 1897 01:47:22,640 --> 01:47:25,800 Speaker 1: guys NXT week. You know, there's probably better than most. Okay, 1898 01:47:26,000 --> 01:47:28,439 Speaker 1: there are two philosophies out there. There's a law enforcement 1899 01:47:28,520 --> 01:47:33,800 Speaker 1: philosophy and then there's a military and the law enforcement philosophy. 1900 01:47:33,840 --> 01:47:36,120 Speaker 1: You know, it's like, hey, you take, you take incoming 1901 01:47:36,240 --> 01:47:38,479 Speaker 1: shots and coming round. You know, you you try to 1902 01:47:39,160 --> 01:47:42,759 Speaker 1: get out of the kill zone, take a barricade, position 1903 01:47:42,840 --> 01:47:46,760 Speaker 1: of cover, call for backup, and then hunker down. You know. 1904 01:47:47,479 --> 01:47:49,800 Speaker 1: In the military you know better than I do. You know, 1905 01:47:49,920 --> 01:47:53,360 Speaker 1: you take, you take incoming fire, you return fire, and assault, 1906 01:47:53,439 --> 01:47:59,960 Speaker 1: assault the position, assault the ambus. Okay, Uh, that's what happened. 1907 01:48:00,320 --> 01:48:04,400 Speaker 1: You had these two guys were a hundred first airborne, Okay. 1908 01:48:05,680 --> 01:48:11,040 Speaker 1: And you could see in their movements they flanked the 1909 01:48:11,200 --> 01:48:16,240 Speaker 1: agents and at the in in Ben's car, Platt laid 1910 01:48:16,280 --> 01:48:21,639 Speaker 1: down suppression fire. And he assaulted their position. Okay, we're taught, 1911 01:48:21,720 --> 01:48:24,599 Speaker 1: you know, to hunker down behind cover of fire, shoot, 1912 01:48:24,680 --> 01:48:27,080 Speaker 1: you know, a call for backup. That's exactly what we did. 1913 01:48:27,520 --> 01:48:30,120 Speaker 1: So those two philosophies came, you know, came head to 1914 01:48:30,160 --> 01:48:35,160 Speaker 1: head um and that's the result. You know. And I 1915 01:48:35,280 --> 01:48:37,519 Speaker 1: lectured last week and I said, guys, you know, you 1916 01:48:37,680 --> 01:48:39,519 Speaker 1: need to be aware that there are people out there, 1917 01:48:40,120 --> 01:48:43,320 Speaker 1: especially now in the United States in this era after 1918 01:48:44,160 --> 01:48:47,800 Speaker 1: Desert Storm, and there's a shield and you know, the 1919 01:48:47,920 --> 01:48:50,360 Speaker 1: Son of Desert Shield and all of you all these 1920 01:48:50,439 --> 01:48:53,040 Speaker 1: different programs that we've gotten. You know, there's a lot 1921 01:48:53,080 --> 01:48:54,880 Speaker 1: of military folks out there that have a lot of 1922 01:48:54,920 --> 01:48:56,880 Speaker 1: good training, you know, and if they choose to do evil, 1923 01:48:56,960 --> 01:48:59,160 Speaker 1: you know, it's like you need to be prepared, you know. 1924 01:48:59,479 --> 01:49:02,479 Speaker 1: You you're we're trained to hunker down behind cover, and 1925 01:49:02,479 --> 01:49:05,840 Speaker 1: they're training to assault the position, to flank, laid down 1926 01:49:05,880 --> 01:49:08,679 Speaker 1: suppression fire and and you know, through fire and maneuver 1927 01:49:08,880 --> 01:49:12,360 Speaker 1: and assault the position. You know. So I mean there's 1928 01:49:12,400 --> 01:49:16,160 Speaker 1: just two to two you know, different philosophies, you know, 1929 01:49:16,240 --> 01:49:18,240 Speaker 1: And like I said, they came into clash that day. 1930 01:49:19,040 --> 01:49:22,479 Speaker 1: How did how did this end up influencing how FBI 1931 01:49:22,640 --> 01:49:27,360 Speaker 1: agents and other law enforcement officers were trained the FBI 1932 01:49:27,880 --> 01:49:30,040 Speaker 1: at least, I mean I can speak, I can speak 1933 01:49:30,400 --> 01:49:35,240 Speaker 1: from from an FBI perspective of all training now is 1934 01:49:35,320 --> 01:49:40,920 Speaker 1: combat training. Okay. We we teach marksmanship, you know, because 1935 01:49:41,000 --> 01:49:43,320 Speaker 1: every agency has to has to be able to justify 1936 01:49:43,560 --> 01:49:46,759 Speaker 1: you know, uh, you know, a case and officers involved 1937 01:49:46,760 --> 01:49:48,840 Speaker 1: in a in a shooting, they have to be able 1938 01:49:48,880 --> 01:49:52,320 Speaker 1: to show in courney. Listen, this officer is an eight 1939 01:49:52,600 --> 01:49:56,439 Speaker 1: percent shooter. You know, historically he fires at an eight 1940 01:49:56,720 --> 01:50:00,360 Speaker 1: percent level. You know, here's his training records. Blah blah 1941 01:50:00,400 --> 01:50:03,200 Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Okay, now beyond that, Okay, that's for 1942 01:50:03,280 --> 01:50:06,320 Speaker 1: a liability purposes, you know, for survival purposes, you know, 1943 01:50:06,439 --> 01:50:11,920 Speaker 1: you have to We've started teaching officers and agents combat shooting, 1944 01:50:12,320 --> 01:50:16,360 Speaker 1: shooting from inside cars, shooting from around cars, moving and shooting, 1945 01:50:16,840 --> 01:50:19,080 Speaker 1: you know, shooting from one position and moving to a 1946 01:50:19,160 --> 01:50:23,400 Speaker 1: second position, shooting and moving targets, you know, multiple assailants, 1947 01:50:23,479 --> 01:50:27,200 Speaker 1: you know, drawing weapons. Uh, you know, you you're you're 1948 01:50:27,439 --> 01:50:29,560 Speaker 1: in your car, you have a side arm. How do 1949 01:50:29,640 --> 01:50:31,400 Speaker 1: you get to your long weapon? Where do you keep 1950 01:50:31,479 --> 01:50:34,400 Speaker 1: your long weapon? You know? Shooting long weapons from inside 1951 01:50:34,479 --> 01:50:36,840 Speaker 1: the car, you know, shooting, you know, I mean it 1952 01:50:36,960 --> 01:50:41,240 Speaker 1: assists great. I mean, you know we have mock uh 1953 01:50:41,439 --> 01:50:45,439 Speaker 1: combat satis. Now like the military. You you kicked down 1954 01:50:45,479 --> 01:50:47,400 Speaker 1: the door and then you you go in with with 1955 01:50:48,160 --> 01:50:51,280 Speaker 1: a long weapon or a handgun and you assault, you 1956 01:50:51,960 --> 01:50:57,280 Speaker 1: engage multiple targets. You know, there's a scenario it's like 1957 01:50:57,400 --> 01:50:59,479 Speaker 1: a you know, a bad guy has a hostage. All 1958 01:50:59,560 --> 01:51:01,160 Speaker 1: you see, you know, part of his head. You know, 1959 01:51:01,280 --> 01:51:03,680 Speaker 1: do you take the shot or not or not? You know, 1960 01:51:04,360 --> 01:51:06,240 Speaker 1: well he's got a gun. He's going to either shoot 1961 01:51:06,280 --> 01:51:07,840 Speaker 1: you or the hosses. So you have to make a 1962 01:51:07,880 --> 01:51:11,000 Speaker 1: quick decision, you know. So it's it's improved, I would say, 1963 01:51:12,080 --> 01:51:15,760 Speaker 1: you know, but there's always room for more improvement, you know. 1964 01:51:16,000 --> 01:51:19,160 Speaker 1: And I went to a training scenario last week that 1965 01:51:19,240 --> 01:51:22,640 Speaker 1: was outstanding. I mean absolutely. You know, car stops, you know, 1966 01:51:22,760 --> 01:51:25,280 Speaker 1: they're they're they're more training and car stops, you know, 1967 01:51:25,960 --> 01:51:29,040 Speaker 1: and it's like, uh, I mean, you get a four 1968 01:51:29,120 --> 01:51:32,040 Speaker 1: thousand pown machine, you know, being chased by four or 1969 01:51:32,080 --> 01:51:36,360 Speaker 1: five other four four thousand pown machines. I mean that's tough, man. 1970 01:51:36,439 --> 01:51:40,120 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, everybody, everybody worries about the liability, 1971 01:51:40,200 --> 01:51:42,639 Speaker 1: you know, but beyond that. I mean it's okay when 1972 01:51:42,640 --> 01:51:47,240 Speaker 1: the car stopped. I mean, how many how many California 1973 01:51:47,360 --> 01:51:49,360 Speaker 1: car chases do we have to watch on TV to 1974 01:51:49,439 --> 01:51:53,439 Speaker 1: realize it's like, man, this stuff is dangerous, you know. Um, 1975 01:51:53,880 --> 01:51:57,519 Speaker 1: so the FBI stone more cash, car stop training and 1976 01:51:57,920 --> 01:52:01,360 Speaker 1: uh shooting you know again eoting from inside cars, shooting 1977 01:52:01,360 --> 01:52:03,320 Speaker 1: around cars, you know that type of stuff. You know. 1978 01:52:03,439 --> 01:52:08,280 Speaker 1: So um you know, I mean it's improved. Like I said, 1979 01:52:09,120 --> 01:52:12,920 Speaker 1: you know, how about for you personally, like on a 1980 01:52:12,960 --> 01:52:15,680 Speaker 1: more personal level, how did all this impact you? I 1981 01:52:16,120 --> 01:52:18,280 Speaker 1: mean something you said really kind of resonated with me 1982 01:52:18,360 --> 01:52:20,320 Speaker 1: when you were talking about how you you had this 1983 01:52:20,400 --> 01:52:22,880 Speaker 1: intense fear and then you got over it, like you 1984 01:52:22,920 --> 01:52:25,640 Speaker 1: went through those stages very quickly. I was wondering if 1985 01:52:25,680 --> 01:52:31,000 Speaker 1: that was a feeling that's stuck with you after the fact. Well, 1986 01:52:31,840 --> 01:52:33,280 Speaker 1: yes and no. I mean, like I said, you know, 1987 01:52:33,360 --> 01:52:35,680 Speaker 1: I I don't want to give you the impression that 1988 01:52:35,720 --> 01:52:38,040 Speaker 1: I'm good at two shoes, you know, but I mean 1989 01:52:38,120 --> 01:52:41,320 Speaker 1: I I was. I mean I was raised you know, Catholic, 1990 01:52:41,400 --> 01:52:45,240 Speaker 1: you know, from a Hispanic family, you know in South Texas. 1991 01:52:45,280 --> 01:52:47,479 Speaker 1: You know, my mom used to beat the crap out 1992 01:52:47,479 --> 01:52:48,960 Speaker 1: of us, you know, when we didn't go to church. 1993 01:52:49,080 --> 01:52:51,040 Speaker 1: But you know we won't go there, you know, so 1994 01:52:53,240 --> 01:52:55,840 Speaker 1: you know, but h I mean, you know, I I am, 1995 01:52:56,000 --> 01:52:59,000 Speaker 1: I am, you know, religious and spiritual and stuff, you know. 1996 01:52:59,320 --> 01:53:01,760 Speaker 1: But when I trained folks, I say, hey, listen, you know, 1997 01:53:02,240 --> 01:53:04,400 Speaker 1: do you believe in luck? You know, in a lot 1998 01:53:04,439 --> 01:53:06,720 Speaker 1: of hard core stuffs, don't know. I don't believe in luck. 1999 01:53:06,760 --> 01:53:08,280 Speaker 1: You know what a lucky you know? Blah blah blah. 2000 01:53:08,400 --> 01:53:10,320 Speaker 1: I said, okay, you don't believe in luck? I can, 2001 01:53:10,400 --> 01:53:12,639 Speaker 1: I can, I can respect it. But let me ask 2002 01:53:12,640 --> 01:53:15,639 Speaker 1: you this question, would you rather be lucky or unlucky? 2003 01:53:16,200 --> 01:53:20,160 Speaker 1: And that kind of gets him. It's like, well, tell me, 2004 01:53:20,240 --> 01:53:22,360 Speaker 1: would you rather be lucky or unlucky? Will I'd rather 2005 01:53:22,439 --> 01:53:25,280 Speaker 1: be lucky? I said, okay, that's that's good. Now, if 2006 01:53:25,320 --> 01:53:28,120 Speaker 1: you have a choice between living and dying, you know, 2007 01:53:29,080 --> 01:53:32,680 Speaker 1: what would you choose living? Of course? You know, And 2008 01:53:32,800 --> 01:53:34,400 Speaker 1: and that's what I tell him. I said this, I said, 2009 01:53:34,439 --> 01:53:37,160 Speaker 1: this is all about I mean, if you have a choice, 2010 01:53:37,520 --> 01:53:39,960 Speaker 1: you know, would you would you do something to help 2011 01:53:40,000 --> 01:53:43,320 Speaker 1: you survive or not do it? And there there's so 2012 01:53:43,439 --> 01:53:47,439 Speaker 1: much concern nowadays about liability. It's like, screw liability, dude, 2013 01:53:47,640 --> 01:53:50,599 Speaker 1: I mean, I want to be around to worry about liability. 2014 01:53:50,640 --> 01:53:52,439 Speaker 1: I don't want to be you know, carried you by 2015 01:53:52,960 --> 01:53:56,000 Speaker 1: by six people, you know. And I think we've gotten 2016 01:53:56,080 --> 01:53:58,320 Speaker 1: so our society has just gotten so out of whack, 2017 01:53:58,439 --> 01:54:01,439 Speaker 1: you know that. You know, officers are afraid to respond. 2018 01:54:01,640 --> 01:54:04,760 Speaker 1: You know. It's I can, dude, I'm old school, you know. 2019 01:54:04,920 --> 01:54:06,880 Speaker 1: I mean, if I see a threat, I'm going to 2020 01:54:06,960 --> 01:54:09,880 Speaker 1: address that threat. You know. It's like, yeah, but what 2021 01:54:10,000 --> 01:54:13,439 Speaker 1: about this what I dode. You have a legal right 2022 01:54:13,920 --> 01:54:17,840 Speaker 1: to defend your life against death or serious bodily harm. 2023 01:54:18,360 --> 01:54:20,120 Speaker 1: You have a right to do that for your partner, 2024 01:54:20,240 --> 01:54:21,560 Speaker 1: and you have a right to do that for the 2025 01:54:21,640 --> 01:54:26,200 Speaker 1: citizens of the United States. Okay, that's the law. Okay, 2026 01:54:26,320 --> 01:54:28,560 Speaker 1: that's simple. Now. I don't want to get into this 2027 01:54:28,680 --> 01:54:31,800 Speaker 1: politically correct stuff correct stuff, you know. But hey, you know, 2028 01:54:31,880 --> 01:54:34,320 Speaker 1: I'm not going to lose my life, you know, over 2029 01:54:34,480 --> 01:54:37,760 Speaker 1: some politically correct crap, you know. And that's what I 2030 01:54:37,840 --> 01:54:39,880 Speaker 1: tell officers. I said, by all means, you need to 2031 01:54:39,960 --> 01:54:43,680 Speaker 1: follow the law, by all means, you know, but you're 2032 01:54:43,720 --> 01:54:46,320 Speaker 1: not paid to get killed. And so I tell them, 2033 01:54:46,360 --> 01:54:48,960 Speaker 1: I said, you know, if if that's if that's your contract, 2034 01:54:49,040 --> 01:54:51,560 Speaker 1: and that I'd probably go, you know, work at McDonald's 2035 01:54:51,600 --> 01:54:54,280 Speaker 1: or something, you know, because you know, nobody is paid 2036 01:54:54,320 --> 01:54:55,920 Speaker 1: to get killed. You know. It's like, you know, you 2037 01:54:56,040 --> 01:54:59,240 Speaker 1: have an absolute right to defend yourself, you know. So 2038 01:54:59,760 --> 01:55:01,640 Speaker 1: as what I'm tell him, I said, hey, you need 2039 01:55:01,720 --> 01:55:03,720 Speaker 1: to have the mindset that you are going to survive 2040 01:55:04,280 --> 01:55:05,560 Speaker 1: and at the end of the day, you're gonna go 2041 01:55:05,600 --> 01:55:09,200 Speaker 1: home to your family, okay, And you know, sometimes not 2042 01:55:09,360 --> 01:55:11,800 Speaker 1: sometimes a lot of times or most of the times, 2043 01:55:11,840 --> 01:55:14,400 Speaker 1: survival is ugly, you know, when you get when you 2044 01:55:14,480 --> 01:55:17,280 Speaker 1: get down and dirty. I mean, you know you I'm 2045 01:55:17,360 --> 01:55:19,320 Speaker 1: sure you know better than I do. You know how 2046 01:55:19,560 --> 01:55:22,000 Speaker 1: getting down and dirty can can be pretty awful, you know. 2047 01:55:22,760 --> 01:55:25,120 Speaker 1: But that's what I tell these guys. It's like, hey, 2048 01:55:25,840 --> 01:55:29,320 Speaker 1: you know, you can be a righteous man, you can 2049 01:55:29,360 --> 01:55:31,920 Speaker 1: be a righteous woman, you know, but when it comes 2050 01:55:32,160 --> 01:55:34,960 Speaker 1: time to survival, it can be pretty ugly, you know, 2051 01:55:35,120 --> 01:55:39,480 Speaker 1: and you need to get ugly sometimes. And did you 2052 01:55:40,160 --> 01:55:42,760 Speaker 1: end up coming back to work and retiring out of 2053 01:55:42,800 --> 01:55:45,720 Speaker 1: the FBI eventually? Yes? I did. You know it took me, 2054 01:55:45,800 --> 01:55:48,760 Speaker 1: like I said, twenty seven months to be uh to 2055 01:55:48,840 --> 01:55:51,560 Speaker 1: come off light duty because my my my arm, you know, 2056 01:55:51,640 --> 01:55:54,879 Speaker 1: it took my arm was shattered into like a hundred pieces, 2057 01:55:54,960 --> 01:55:58,040 Speaker 1: you know, and they put it together with rods and 2058 01:55:58,840 --> 01:56:01,280 Speaker 1: plates and pins and stuff. You know. So it took 2059 01:56:01,320 --> 01:56:04,920 Speaker 1: it took about, like I said, seven months for it 2060 01:56:05,040 --> 01:56:08,800 Speaker 1: to heal. And uh, after that, you know, I uh, 2061 01:56:11,000 --> 01:56:12,400 Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to get back in the field, 2062 01:56:12,440 --> 01:56:13,960 Speaker 1: and they wanted me to go into management. You know, 2063 01:56:14,000 --> 01:56:16,040 Speaker 1: people would would counsel me and saying, hey, man, you 2064 01:56:16,080 --> 01:56:20,440 Speaker 1: know you paid your dues, you know, go go go 2065 01:56:20,600 --> 01:56:23,480 Speaker 1: into management. You know. It's like, you know, you know, 2066 01:56:23,640 --> 01:56:26,440 Speaker 1: I can't be a manager, you know, you know, I 2067 01:56:26,600 --> 01:56:30,600 Speaker 1: like to be out in the field, you know, you know, 2068 01:56:30,880 --> 01:56:33,800 Speaker 1: talking talking to criminals, you know, talking to you know, 2069 01:56:34,680 --> 01:56:38,440 Speaker 1: the bad guys, you know, and and and that's what 2070 01:56:38,480 --> 01:56:41,280 Speaker 1: I decided to do. So after after the FBI was 2071 01:56:41,360 --> 01:56:44,120 Speaker 1: kind enough to send me the Quantico, the training academy 2072 01:56:44,200 --> 01:56:46,040 Speaker 1: for for two years, you know, when I recovered. And 2073 01:56:46,080 --> 01:56:48,760 Speaker 1: then after after I recovered, I requested a transfer back 2074 01:56:48,800 --> 01:56:54,400 Speaker 1: to Miami and I ended up working undercover narcotics cases 2075 01:56:54,840 --> 01:56:59,640 Speaker 1: for probably fifteen years till I retired. And that's unreal. 2076 01:56:59,880 --> 01:57:02,880 Speaker 1: I mean that that took the I'm familiar. I was 2077 01:57:03,000 --> 01:57:06,240 Speaker 1: familiar with this incident, but not nearly at this level 2078 01:57:06,480 --> 01:57:09,800 Speaker 1: of depth and hearing it from you directly has been amazing. 2079 01:57:09,880 --> 01:57:13,800 Speaker 1: Like that took grit what you did out there. And uh, 2080 01:57:13,880 --> 01:57:16,840 Speaker 1: I appreciate you telling this stories, um with some humor 2081 01:57:17,560 --> 01:57:19,480 Speaker 1: mixed in there, because I mean, this is like what 2082 01:57:19,880 --> 01:57:22,400 Speaker 1: it is, a dark thing. You know, two agents were lost. 2083 01:57:22,960 --> 01:57:25,400 Speaker 1: You had to kill the two perpetrators, although they had 2084 01:57:25,600 --> 01:57:27,840 Speaker 1: they had it coming. But I mean you've got to 2085 01:57:27,920 --> 01:57:31,680 Speaker 1: laugh sometimes, otherwise you'd be crying, you know. Oh yeah, no, absolutely, 2086 01:57:31,760 --> 01:57:34,040 Speaker 1: And it's been it's been over thirty years now. But 2087 01:57:34,320 --> 01:57:36,040 Speaker 1: the thing is that the point that I said, people 2088 01:57:36,040 --> 01:57:37,640 Speaker 1: have said, hey, you know, I mean people say, hey, 2089 01:57:37,880 --> 01:57:39,720 Speaker 1: you did a heroic thing. You know. It's like, hey, guys, 2090 01:57:39,800 --> 01:57:42,919 Speaker 1: you know I showed up. You know, the real heroes 2091 01:57:43,120 --> 01:57:45,680 Speaker 1: are Ben and Jerry, Ben Groken, Jerry Doub. You know, 2092 01:57:46,320 --> 01:57:48,920 Speaker 1: none of us took a step back, okay, and they 2093 01:57:48,960 --> 01:57:51,240 Speaker 1: certainly didn't. You know, they gave you know, they gave 2094 01:57:51,320 --> 01:57:56,000 Speaker 1: the full measure. Okay. They gave me enough time to 2095 01:57:56,400 --> 01:57:59,800 Speaker 1: regroup and and to be able to come up with 2096 01:57:59,840 --> 01:58:02,160 Speaker 1: a land and and try to flank these these two, 2097 01:58:02,560 --> 01:58:05,720 Speaker 1: these two killers, you know, and in the end, you know, 2098 01:58:07,040 --> 01:58:09,960 Speaker 1: they did give me the time to do that, you know, 2099 01:58:10,040 --> 01:58:13,480 Speaker 1: and I was able to to gather up enough strength, 2100 01:58:13,600 --> 01:58:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, to to move forward and in the gunfight. 2101 01:58:16,600 --> 01:58:19,680 Speaker 1: You know, but you know, it's it's really not about me. 2102 01:58:19,800 --> 01:58:22,480 Speaker 1: It's about Ben and Jerry, you know. And like I said, 2103 01:58:22,600 --> 01:58:25,800 Speaker 1: the arrest team, not one person took a step back, 2104 01:58:25,880 --> 01:58:28,000 Speaker 1: you know. And and that's all you ask. I mean, 2105 01:58:28,160 --> 01:58:29,960 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, the guy to the left, the 2106 01:58:30,000 --> 01:58:31,720 Speaker 1: guy to the right. You know, you you're doing the 2107 01:58:31,800 --> 01:58:34,920 Speaker 1: job for them, you know. And uh, you know, of course, 2108 01:58:35,000 --> 01:58:36,800 Speaker 1: you know, you know you do it. You do it 2109 01:58:36,920 --> 01:58:39,800 Speaker 1: for the for the public to you know, but you 2110 01:58:39,920 --> 01:58:42,840 Speaker 1: know they're the real heroes. There are the true heroes, 2111 01:58:42,880 --> 01:58:45,000 Speaker 1: you know. Like I said, I just kind of showed up, 2112 01:58:45,080 --> 01:58:49,160 Speaker 1: you know, and then you went back for more after 2113 01:58:49,520 --> 01:58:54,720 Speaker 1: after you got back together. Yeah, like I said, I'm 2114 01:58:54,960 --> 01:58:58,000 Speaker 1: I'm kind of an odd person, you know. So well 2115 01:58:58,840 --> 01:59:00,440 Speaker 1: you can you tell us what you're up to today? 2116 01:59:00,480 --> 01:59:05,120 Speaker 1: Are you enjoying retirement or are you still I Once 2117 01:59:05,160 --> 01:59:09,320 Speaker 1: I retired, you know, I started working contractor covernment contracting, 2118 01:59:09,360 --> 01:59:12,120 Speaker 1: and I worked for a company in Alexandria for about 2119 01:59:12,200 --> 01:59:14,880 Speaker 1: four or five years. And then a buddy of mine said, hey, 2120 01:59:15,160 --> 01:59:18,840 Speaker 1: you know, uh they're looking for police trainers, police advisers, 2121 01:59:19,080 --> 01:59:23,400 Speaker 1: you know, to help the the service in the military services. 2122 01:59:23,440 --> 01:59:25,560 Speaker 1: And I said, oh, could you know, so he he 2123 01:59:25,720 --> 01:59:27,280 Speaker 1: gave me a link and I signed up, you know, 2124 01:59:27,440 --> 01:59:30,760 Speaker 1: and I ended up doing uh four years in Iraq. 2125 01:59:31,200 --> 01:59:34,640 Speaker 1: You know, I was a police advisor in Iraq. The 2126 01:59:35,880 --> 01:59:38,600 Speaker 1: pit teams what we call it lips that there was 2127 01:59:38,640 --> 01:59:42,440 Speaker 1: a law enforcement professionals. We were going in with with 2128 01:59:42,640 --> 01:59:45,040 Speaker 1: the military units to help them do crime scenes and 2129 01:59:46,000 --> 01:59:49,280 Speaker 1: site exploitation, you know, that type of stuff. And uh 2130 01:59:49,760 --> 01:59:52,880 Speaker 1: and UH I ended up doing four years or of course, 2131 01:59:52,920 --> 01:59:54,800 Speaker 1: you know, the end of four years, you know, the 2132 01:59:55,760 --> 01:59:59,240 Speaker 1: our our mission, you know, transition, you know, we went 2133 01:59:59,360 --> 02:00:02,080 Speaker 1: from when I got there, there were still doing they 2134 02:00:02,120 --> 02:00:04,000 Speaker 1: were still still doing a lot of shooting, you know, 2135 02:00:04,080 --> 02:00:06,320 Speaker 1: but but towards the end, you know, everything it kind 2136 02:00:06,360 --> 02:00:09,640 Speaker 1: of settled down, I guess to uh a reasonable piece, 2137 02:00:09,720 --> 02:00:14,320 Speaker 1: you know. And and then I was working at BAGGED 2138 02:00:14,360 --> 02:00:16,960 Speaker 1: at headquarters, you know, trying to gather intelligence, you know, 2139 02:00:17,200 --> 02:00:20,160 Speaker 1: from from police agencies. And then my last year there 2140 02:00:20,320 --> 02:00:23,400 Speaker 1: was with the State Department. You know, they took over 2141 02:00:23,520 --> 02:00:27,000 Speaker 1: for the military and that State Department end of the program, 2142 02:00:27,080 --> 02:00:28,480 Speaker 1: you know, because it was just I don't know, it 2143 02:00:28,600 --> 02:00:31,040 Speaker 1: just got too expensive or something, you know. So and 2144 02:00:31,080 --> 02:00:33,800 Speaker 1: then after that, I went to Mexico City for a 2145 02:00:33,920 --> 02:00:36,960 Speaker 1: year to help train Mexican cops. And after that, I 2146 02:00:37,040 --> 02:00:40,880 Speaker 1: went to Belize, you know, Sunny Belize for a year 2147 02:00:40,960 --> 02:00:44,400 Speaker 1: to help train Belizian cops. You know. And now I'm 2148 02:00:44,440 --> 02:00:46,440 Speaker 1: back in the States, you know, and I've just you know, 2149 02:00:47,720 --> 02:00:51,040 Speaker 1: I've been trying to write my book for since two 2150 02:00:51,080 --> 02:00:53,160 Speaker 1: thousand and five, you know, and and you know it 2151 02:00:53,480 --> 02:00:57,480 Speaker 1: just I kept hitting uh, you know, roadblocks, and you know, 2152 02:00:58,200 --> 02:01:02,480 Speaker 1: people just didn't you know, uh literary agent didn't care. 2153 02:01:02,720 --> 02:01:05,600 Speaker 1: People in it's a crap book, and you know, so 2154 02:01:06,240 --> 02:01:08,160 Speaker 1: it kind of it kind of you know, discouraged me. 2155 02:01:08,320 --> 02:01:10,360 Speaker 1: But then when I got back to the States and say, 2156 02:01:10,520 --> 02:01:11,680 Speaker 1: you know what, I'm going to do this. I don't 2157 02:01:11,680 --> 02:01:14,960 Speaker 1: care if I have to self publish. So, um, I 2158 02:01:15,360 --> 02:01:18,000 Speaker 1: self published my book last year, and uh, you know, 2159 02:01:18,160 --> 02:01:22,040 Speaker 1: just you know, been out there doing training conferences and 2160 02:01:22,240 --> 02:01:25,360 Speaker 1: and some law enforcement agencies helped me to just come in, 2161 02:01:25,880 --> 02:01:27,440 Speaker 1: I mean asked me to just come in and help 2162 02:01:27,520 --> 02:01:30,120 Speaker 1: train some of their troops and stuff. Like I said, 2163 02:01:30,120 --> 02:01:32,360 Speaker 1: I was just in Boston last week, you know, uh, 2164 02:01:32,720 --> 02:01:36,000 Speaker 1: talking to a group of officers, you know, about car 2165 02:01:36,120 --> 02:01:38,680 Speaker 1: stops and and you know, lessons learned and that type 2166 02:01:38,720 --> 02:01:40,760 Speaker 1: of stuff, which was good because you know, I was 2167 02:01:40,800 --> 02:01:42,880 Speaker 1: told by some of the instructors that some of my 2168 02:01:43,200 --> 02:01:46,040 Speaker 1: uh like a large percentage of my comments, my my 2169 02:01:46,600 --> 02:01:50,760 Speaker 1: lecture was validation for their training. You know. It's like, 2170 02:01:51,360 --> 02:01:53,320 Speaker 1: you know, it's like, well, that's good. I mean, I'm 2171 02:01:53,360 --> 02:01:56,600 Speaker 1: glad I helped validate validate the training for him, you know. 2172 02:01:56,720 --> 02:01:58,680 Speaker 1: So but I said, you know, pretty much, you know, 2173 02:01:58,840 --> 02:02:03,600 Speaker 1: I'm a trainer, I you know, try to advertise my book, 2174 02:02:04,120 --> 02:02:07,400 Speaker 1: um and uh just kind of you know, working out, 2175 02:02:07,560 --> 02:02:09,880 Speaker 1: working out of the home, you know, so, well, what's 2176 02:02:09,920 --> 02:02:11,800 Speaker 1: the name of your book, and where can people find it? 2177 02:02:13,400 --> 02:02:18,240 Speaker 1: The name of the book is FBI Miami Firefight, and 2178 02:02:18,720 --> 02:02:22,640 Speaker 1: uh people can find it at Ed Morrell's one word 2179 02:02:23,240 --> 02:02:26,640 Speaker 1: dot com and they can order it online, you know, 2180 02:02:27,320 --> 02:02:33,440 Speaker 1: right on in the story. Obviously it includes the firefight 2181 02:02:33,520 --> 02:02:36,200 Speaker 1: we're talking about today. Is there anything else in it 2182 02:02:36,360 --> 02:02:39,080 Speaker 1: that that people should do exactly? Well, you know, I 2183 02:02:39,120 --> 02:02:41,440 Speaker 1: mean it has a little bit of my my background, 2184 02:02:41,640 --> 02:02:44,200 Speaker 1: you know, childhood background, you know, and then a little 2185 02:02:44,200 --> 02:02:46,200 Speaker 1: bit of my military history, but most most of it, 2186 02:02:46,320 --> 02:02:48,960 Speaker 1: most of the book is just strictly the case. It's 2187 02:02:49,160 --> 02:02:52,800 Speaker 1: really a case study of of the the events leading 2188 02:02:52,840 --> 02:02:55,240 Speaker 1: after the shooting, the events during the shooting, and then 2189 02:02:55,320 --> 02:03:00,160 Speaker 1: post post shooting, and lesson lessons learned. You know. So, um, 2190 02:03:01,200 --> 02:03:03,560 Speaker 1: I think it's a good read. You know, it's more 2191 02:03:03,640 --> 02:03:07,520 Speaker 1: of a uh more of a lessons learned, you know, 2192 02:03:07,840 --> 02:03:09,800 Speaker 1: not not a training manual. I mean that would be 2193 02:03:10,560 --> 02:03:13,000 Speaker 1: you know, that would be outrageous for me to say. 2194 02:03:13,080 --> 02:03:16,560 Speaker 1: But it's a it's a historical event, and you know, 2195 02:03:16,640 --> 02:03:19,160 Speaker 1: people tell me it's just it's just a plane downright 2196 02:03:19,240 --> 02:03:23,400 Speaker 1: good story, you know, so unreal. Add and before we 2197 02:03:23,520 --> 02:03:26,280 Speaker 1: let you go, add Um, almost four years to the 2198 02:03:26,440 --> 02:03:30,120 Speaker 1: day of the firefight, you were awarded the Medal of Valor. 2199 02:03:30,360 --> 02:03:33,160 Speaker 1: You were the first ever agent um can you can 2200 02:03:33,200 --> 02:03:34,840 Speaker 1: you talk about that a little bit, like obviously it's 2201 02:03:34,840 --> 02:03:36,560 Speaker 1: a huge honor. I just want to hear that our 2202 02:03:36,600 --> 02:03:38,760 Speaker 1: own in our own word was it was huge. Yeah, 2203 02:03:38,800 --> 02:03:42,960 Speaker 1: you know, it was like, you know, it's kind of 2204 02:03:43,080 --> 02:03:48,680 Speaker 1: weird because the the FBI has always been i don't know, 2205 02:03:50,520 --> 02:03:55,080 Speaker 1: not not stingy, but kind of like they know men 2206 02:03:55,160 --> 02:03:58,480 Speaker 1: and women you know, serve you know, and most most people, 2207 02:03:58,760 --> 02:04:00,960 Speaker 1: you know, they're just regular folks. You know, they're not 2208 02:04:01,120 --> 02:04:04,320 Speaker 1: looking for limelight. They're not looking for anything. Uh you know, 2209 02:04:04,600 --> 02:04:07,560 Speaker 1: they're not looking for any clamor or anything else. You know. 2210 02:04:07,720 --> 02:04:12,520 Speaker 1: So you know, uh, and the Bureau has always lacked 2211 02:04:12,920 --> 02:04:16,440 Speaker 1: in in you know, a recognition program. You know, they 2212 02:04:16,600 --> 02:04:20,560 Speaker 1: used to give you a letter of you know, appreciation. 2213 02:04:20,680 --> 02:04:24,400 Speaker 1: You know, it's like, we appreciate, we appreciate your your service. 2214 02:04:25,000 --> 02:04:28,600 Speaker 1: You know, we appreciate your getting a shot to pieces 2215 02:04:28,920 --> 02:04:31,240 Speaker 1: have a nice day, you know, not quite that bad, 2216 02:04:31,320 --> 02:04:34,080 Speaker 1: but you know what I'm saying. And then some some 2217 02:04:34,200 --> 02:04:36,400 Speaker 1: folks are saying, hey, you know what the some other 2218 02:04:36,560 --> 02:04:41,120 Speaker 1: agencies around the country have uh medals, you know, for 2219 02:04:42,400 --> 02:04:46,040 Speaker 1: for their officers, you know, but officers were uniforms, you know, 2220 02:04:46,160 --> 02:04:48,680 Speaker 1: so like the military, you know, they can wear their 2221 02:04:48,720 --> 02:04:51,040 Speaker 1: medals on their uniform you know. So that's why most 2222 02:04:51,080 --> 02:04:55,040 Speaker 1: civilian you know, non uniform agencies. You know, it's it's 2223 02:04:55,080 --> 02:04:57,680 Speaker 1: kind of hard to you know, it's kind of hard 2224 02:04:57,680 --> 02:04:59,760 Speaker 1: to wear a metal you know. I mean, you know, 2225 02:05:00,480 --> 02:05:02,800 Speaker 1: unless you're like a Russians are you know, you were 2226 02:05:02,920 --> 02:05:07,720 Speaker 1: you wear your medals on your t. So, but someone 2227 02:05:07,800 --> 02:05:10,760 Speaker 1: came up with the idea of in like in seven 2228 02:05:10,840 --> 02:05:11,960 Speaker 1: say hey, you know what, we got to have a 2229 02:05:12,000 --> 02:05:15,080 Speaker 1: medals program, you know, and then the medal uh, you know, 2230 02:05:15,200 --> 02:05:17,800 Speaker 1: and I'm totally oblivious that I don't have any idea 2231 02:05:17,880 --> 02:05:20,280 Speaker 1: this is going on, you know, but they said, hey, 2232 02:05:20,280 --> 02:05:22,920 Speaker 1: you know, we need to recognize that, you know, because 2233 02:05:22,960 --> 02:05:25,720 Speaker 1: of the good work he did, you know, blah blah blah. 2234 02:05:26,560 --> 02:05:29,400 Speaker 1: Uh and uh. Then one day I get a call, 2235 02:05:29,520 --> 02:05:32,520 Speaker 1: you know, thinking, hey, you know, you've been selected to 2236 02:05:33,360 --> 02:05:36,720 Speaker 1: for the what's the word I'm looking for here? Help me, 2237 02:05:37,240 --> 02:05:45,040 Speaker 1: like the kickoff the program inaugural uh, inauguration of the 2238 02:05:45,080 --> 02:05:48,760 Speaker 1: medals program. So I was the first recipient of any 2239 02:05:48,840 --> 02:05:51,720 Speaker 1: medal whatsoever that the FBI gave and I was the 2240 02:05:51,800 --> 02:05:54,920 Speaker 1: first recipient of the medal of medal of valor. And 2241 02:05:55,160 --> 02:05:59,200 Speaker 1: there was a huge, huge honor a minute because, like 2242 02:05:59,280 --> 02:06:02,480 Speaker 1: I said, I had no clue. They just you know 2243 02:06:02,680 --> 02:06:04,840 Speaker 1: called me not to find me on the phone, saying, hey, listen, 2244 02:06:04,880 --> 02:06:06,320 Speaker 1: we'd like you f f in DC, you know, and 2245 02:06:07,320 --> 02:06:09,560 Speaker 1: with you and your wife you know, and come up here. 2246 02:06:09,640 --> 02:06:13,080 Speaker 1: And uh, I said, what the heck? You know, I 2247 02:06:13,160 --> 02:06:15,080 Speaker 1: show up And it was a huge deal. I mean, 2248 02:06:15,320 --> 02:06:18,480 Speaker 1: you know, it was like all the past directors, you know, 2249 02:06:18,560 --> 02:06:21,840 Speaker 1: the Attorney General. They had they had a military band, 2250 02:06:22,000 --> 02:06:23,800 Speaker 1: you know, and it was out on the in the 2251 02:06:23,920 --> 02:06:26,760 Speaker 1: courtyard of the FBI building. It's like I looked around, 2252 02:06:26,800 --> 02:06:28,680 Speaker 1: you know, I mean because they had me inside, you know, 2253 02:06:28,800 --> 02:06:31,120 Speaker 1: and and a little uh, I guess you'd call it 2254 02:06:31,240 --> 02:06:33,840 Speaker 1: the green room or something, you know, waiting, you know, 2255 02:06:33,960 --> 02:06:36,440 Speaker 1: and then I went outside that there must have been 2256 02:06:36,480 --> 02:06:43,640 Speaker 1: like a thousand people there. It's like wow, you know, 2257 02:06:43,800 --> 02:06:46,360 Speaker 1: so uh and and it was a big deal, you know, 2258 02:06:46,440 --> 02:06:50,480 Speaker 1: the you know, the director at the time, Williams. Sessions, 2259 02:06:50,520 --> 02:06:53,080 Speaker 1: you know, but you know, it comes out, reads the 2260 02:06:53,560 --> 02:06:55,960 Speaker 1: citation and then put the metal around my neck. You know, 2261 02:06:56,120 --> 02:06:58,960 Speaker 1: it's like wow, you know, I felt I really felt 2262 02:06:59,000 --> 02:07:01,880 Speaker 1: like like one of the militaries ours in Russia, you know, 2263 02:07:02,000 --> 02:07:05,360 Speaker 1: had the medal on my neck. I'm wearing a suit, 2264 02:07:05,520 --> 02:07:08,640 Speaker 1: you know, so you know, so it was kind of cool, 2265 02:07:09,040 --> 02:07:10,760 Speaker 1: It really was, you know. Plus it was a great 2266 02:07:10,760 --> 02:07:13,120 Speaker 1: honor though. I mean, it's like, you know, and then 2267 02:07:13,280 --> 02:07:15,480 Speaker 1: you know, they said, well, you know the standard for 2268 02:07:15,800 --> 02:07:18,360 Speaker 1: for all medals of honor, medals of Valley will be 2269 02:07:18,760 --> 02:07:23,000 Speaker 1: Admillis is uh you know, and you know so that 2270 02:07:23,360 --> 02:07:26,360 Speaker 1: that's pretty tough, you know, so uh, you know, I 2271 02:07:26,440 --> 02:07:28,720 Speaker 1: think they're probably lowered the standards a little bit because 2272 02:07:29,080 --> 02:07:33,920 Speaker 1: it was just like almost pretty near impossible, well incredibly 2273 02:07:33,960 --> 02:07:37,800 Speaker 1: well deserved obviously without saying well, thanks guys, you know, 2274 02:07:37,920 --> 02:07:40,760 Speaker 1: but that's that's pretty much you know, how the program started, 2275 02:07:40,800 --> 02:07:43,400 Speaker 1: you know, and again it was it was a great, 2276 02:07:43,480 --> 02:07:48,520 Speaker 1: great honor. You know, it's an incredible ad um Wow. Man, 2277 02:07:48,680 --> 02:07:50,120 Speaker 1: I just want to say thank you so much for 2278 02:07:50,160 --> 02:07:53,680 Speaker 1: sharing your story with us. No thanks, guys, I mean 2279 02:07:53,720 --> 02:07:57,680 Speaker 1: I really appreciate the opportunity to talk, you know, to 2280 02:07:57,800 --> 02:08:01,960 Speaker 1: you guys and hopefully your audience. You know, we'll get 2281 02:08:02,040 --> 02:08:04,720 Speaker 1: something out of it, you know, so they most certainly will. 2282 02:08:04,920 --> 02:08:08,040 Speaker 1: I know that well, I know that will. And by 2283 02:08:08,080 --> 02:08:10,720 Speaker 1: the way, you know, Jack, you know, I really appreciate 2284 02:08:10,840 --> 02:08:13,480 Speaker 1: the your service, you know, to the country. You know. 2285 02:08:13,560 --> 02:08:15,400 Speaker 1: It's like, you know, thank you for your service. You 2286 02:08:15,480 --> 02:08:17,360 Speaker 1: know what I mean, a lot of people, you know, 2287 02:08:17,640 --> 02:08:20,760 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, you know, our society today, 2288 02:08:20,840 --> 02:08:24,680 Speaker 1: you know, they don't think the military folks enough, you know, 2289 02:08:24,840 --> 02:08:27,320 Speaker 1: in my opinion, I mean, I've served up in overseas, 2290 02:08:27,440 --> 02:08:29,520 Speaker 1: you know, and I've seen seen some things, you know, 2291 02:08:29,600 --> 02:08:31,440 Speaker 1: and it's like we don't thank you enough. Man, And 2292 02:08:31,560 --> 02:08:33,880 Speaker 1: likewise said. I mean you served long and hard as 2293 02:08:33,920 --> 02:08:37,480 Speaker 1: a law enforcement officer, including you know, a few years 2294 02:08:37,560 --> 02:08:40,880 Speaker 1: over in Iraq. Um. Yeah, you know, and and as 2295 02:08:40,920 --> 02:08:42,960 Speaker 1: you said, you had the opportunity to go and ride 2296 02:08:42,960 --> 02:08:44,560 Speaker 1: a desk if you wanted it. You didn't have to 2297 02:08:44,600 --> 02:08:47,760 Speaker 1: be h. Yeah, well it's just not my I mean, 2298 02:08:47,800 --> 02:08:49,600 Speaker 1: you know, it's just not my style. And it's like, hey, 2299 02:08:50,000 --> 02:08:52,160 Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to sound dramatic, but I'm 2300 02:08:52,160 --> 02:08:53,680 Speaker 1: a man of actually you know, I can't sit on 2301 02:08:53,760 --> 02:08:56,040 Speaker 1: my butt. You know, I'm sitting on my butt now. 2302 02:08:56,200 --> 02:08:58,800 Speaker 1: But now that I'm retired, you know, but I'm back then, 2303 02:08:58,920 --> 02:09:04,280 Speaker 1: no way, Well the well learned. Yeah, thank you guys. Yeah, 2304 02:09:04,400 --> 02:09:06,680 Speaker 1: thank you. I really appreciate your time, you know, and 2305 02:09:07,600 --> 02:09:10,120 Speaker 1: again thanks thanks for us to you and I appreciate 2306 02:09:10,200 --> 02:09:13,360 Speaker 1: the opportunity. Thank you. Here's a great job. This was 2307 02:09:14,080 --> 02:09:17,880 Speaker 1: very insightful, great to listen to. Okay, thank you, thank you, 2308 02:09:18,560 --> 02:09:23,160 Speaker 1: Take care bye. I mean what a story. Tough act 2309 02:09:23,200 --> 02:09:27,520 Speaker 1: to follow. Uh sure, I don't even know if there 2310 02:09:27,600 --> 02:09:31,440 Speaker 1: is an act of fault there. Um that was ed Morillis. 2311 02:09:31,560 --> 02:09:35,360 Speaker 1: Obviously you just listened to the whole thing. Uh. Three 2312 02:09:35,840 --> 02:09:39,160 Speaker 1: quick points. I wanted to talk about the the interview. 2313 02:09:39,840 --> 02:09:43,840 Speaker 1: First Off, it was very early. He would call it hunting, um, 2314 02:09:45,160 --> 02:09:47,440 Speaker 1: like man hunting, you would call it hunting. I thought 2315 02:09:47,480 --> 02:09:49,280 Speaker 1: that was just such a like a that was a 2316 02:09:49,320 --> 02:09:51,240 Speaker 1: badass thing to do. He's like, yeah, we're hunting these 2317 02:09:51,360 --> 02:09:54,840 Speaker 1: these cult like perpetrators. That is right after bad. I 2318 02:09:54,920 --> 02:09:57,880 Speaker 1: was like, this guy means business. You talked about hunting humans, 2319 02:09:57,960 --> 02:10:01,400 Speaker 1: like not even like Deadliest Games, just oh yeah, like 2320 02:10:01,480 --> 02:10:03,680 Speaker 1: we weren't. We weren't like a following. We were hunting him. 2321 02:10:03,720 --> 02:10:05,840 Speaker 1: It was like, okay, trying to hunt down some armed, 2322 02:10:05,960 --> 02:10:09,760 Speaker 1: dangerous suspects Like that was good. Secondly, I knew he 2323 02:10:09,800 --> 02:10:13,400 Speaker 1: had flair his um, his what was He'd be like, 2324 02:10:13,720 --> 02:10:15,520 Speaker 1: he would tell the story and he goes what And 2325 02:10:15,600 --> 02:10:17,560 Speaker 1: I was like, all right, this guy, he's got a 2326 02:10:17,600 --> 02:10:20,600 Speaker 1: flair for storytelling. I knew that was gonna be enjoyable. Um. 2327 02:10:21,120 --> 02:10:25,080 Speaker 1: And Thirdly, you could hear like the obviously the story 2328 02:10:25,160 --> 02:10:28,720 Speaker 1: was incredible in its own right. Traumatic amnesia. I I 2329 02:10:29,280 --> 02:10:31,120 Speaker 1: could tell that that caught your eye a little bit, 2330 02:10:31,520 --> 02:10:36,240 Speaker 1: just in the sense of obviously most civilians hopefully I've 2331 02:10:36,280 --> 02:10:38,520 Speaker 1: never had to deal with that, but being in the 2332 02:10:38,560 --> 02:10:41,600 Speaker 1: military law enforcement, if God forbid you don't have to 2333 02:10:41,640 --> 02:10:45,840 Speaker 1: deal with it, but if you are, it's almost reactionary. 2334 02:10:46,920 --> 02:10:48,400 Speaker 1: I don't want to. I mean, I can't put myself 2335 02:10:48,440 --> 02:10:50,240 Speaker 1: in those shoes, but I could just I saw that 2336 02:10:50,520 --> 02:10:52,640 Speaker 1: you reacted to it and him describing me like he 2337 02:10:52,760 --> 02:10:54,720 Speaker 1: was like, I think this is what happened. People told 2338 02:10:54,760 --> 02:10:56,360 Speaker 1: me this is what happened. But at the same time, 2339 02:10:56,720 --> 02:10:58,720 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest, I don't really know. Yeah, I 2340 02:10:59,400 --> 02:11:02,600 Speaker 1: to my not knowledge, uh into my recollection, which is 2341 02:11:02,640 --> 02:11:04,680 Speaker 1: a stupid thing to say. Since we're talking about amnesia. 2342 02:11:04,680 --> 02:11:08,040 Speaker 1: I don't think I ever had that experience, but I've 2343 02:11:08,080 --> 02:11:11,400 Speaker 1: read about it, and yeah, the human body and mind 2344 02:11:11,440 --> 02:11:14,320 Speaker 1: at a certain point will shut down, which is if 2345 02:11:14,360 --> 02:11:18,960 Speaker 1: you've ever um, I mean, if you cover things like 2346 02:11:19,080 --> 02:11:22,560 Speaker 1: war crimes and you study, uh this kind of pretty 2347 02:11:22,640 --> 02:11:26,720 Speaker 1: dark stuff. But um, like, for instance, women who were 2348 02:11:26,800 --> 02:11:31,120 Speaker 1: raped may experience traumatic amnesia. Like it's it's it is 2349 02:11:31,200 --> 02:11:34,440 Speaker 1: a known psycho, it's a real nomina. Yeah, it's a 2350 02:11:34,520 --> 02:11:38,360 Speaker 1: real thing. And uh and yes, like soldiers in combat 2351 02:11:38,920 --> 02:11:42,680 Speaker 1: of experienced it. I I remember one story that I 2352 02:11:42,800 --> 02:11:44,680 Speaker 1: had a guy I worked with tell me he was 2353 02:11:44,720 --> 02:11:49,000 Speaker 1: in the invasion of Iraq with special forces, and he 2354 02:11:49,160 --> 02:11:51,680 Speaker 1: told me the story about how they were driving in 2355 02:11:51,720 --> 02:11:56,040 Speaker 1: a convoy and um, they accidentally drove right by like 2356 02:11:56,120 --> 02:11:59,880 Speaker 1: an entire battalion of Iraqi troops. They didn't know we're there, Okay, 2357 02:12:00,280 --> 02:12:04,240 Speaker 1: so immediately they get into a huge firefight. And he 2358 02:12:04,480 --> 02:12:08,160 Speaker 1: said that after they drove through this this area and 2359 02:12:08,200 --> 02:12:11,240 Speaker 1: this huge firefight, and and he he remember, he recalls 2360 02:12:11,320 --> 02:12:15,400 Speaker 1: he was shooting his his rifle out the window. But 2361 02:12:15,600 --> 02:12:18,720 Speaker 1: after they cleared through the area, he said, I looked 2362 02:12:18,800 --> 02:12:22,640 Speaker 1: down and I saw like two or three expended magazines 2363 02:12:22,680 --> 02:12:27,000 Speaker 1: in between my feet. And he's like, I don't remember reload. Yeah, 2364 02:12:27,360 --> 02:12:29,520 Speaker 1: you're just going through your because that's how you were trained, 2365 02:12:29,520 --> 02:12:32,000 Speaker 1: almost like blackout, and it's just muscle memory. Yeah, you're 2366 02:12:32,040 --> 02:12:35,520 Speaker 1: you're in this moment. Your your heartbeat goes through the roof, 2367 02:12:35,800 --> 02:12:39,400 Speaker 1: your adrenaline goes through the roof. Um. But he he 2368 02:12:39,480 --> 02:12:42,040 Speaker 1: had been well trained, and he did everything he was 2369 02:12:42,080 --> 02:12:46,440 Speaker 1: supposed to do, but he didn't specifically recall taking the 2370 02:12:46,560 --> 02:12:49,840 Speaker 1: magazine out of the magazine pauch, dropping the magazine from 2371 02:12:49,840 --> 02:12:53,880 Speaker 1: his rifle, putting the magazine into the rifle, dropping the bolt, 2372 02:12:54,440 --> 02:12:59,840 Speaker 1: And he didn't remember that for several magazine changes. He 2373 02:13:00,480 --> 02:13:06,520 Speaker 1: firefight that's the amnesia. Yeah, it's that's just something that 2374 02:13:06,680 --> 02:13:08,800 Speaker 1: you don't experience in real life. But I mean, I mean, 2375 02:13:08,880 --> 02:13:11,960 Speaker 1: well obviously that's real life, but like normal everyday life 2376 02:13:12,040 --> 02:13:16,400 Speaker 1: that that's just something when hearing hearing and talk about 2377 02:13:16,400 --> 02:13:19,160 Speaker 1: it and then hearing your story just now that it 2378 02:13:19,320 --> 02:13:21,440 Speaker 1: really puts as you said, the human body is just 2379 02:13:22,360 --> 02:13:26,320 Speaker 1: it's a fascinating machine as Ed called it. Um. Yeah, 2380 02:13:26,520 --> 02:13:30,280 Speaker 1: it really gives you appreciation for like the training you said, 2381 02:13:30,320 --> 02:13:32,320 Speaker 1: he you know, you know what you're doing, but at 2382 02:13:32,360 --> 02:13:35,880 Speaker 1: the same time, your body it's almost the uh, the 2383 02:13:35,960 --> 02:13:37,960 Speaker 1: lights around but nobody's home and you're just kind of 2384 02:13:38,040 --> 02:13:42,160 Speaker 1: reacting right right, it can become that. I mean, you 2385 02:13:42,320 --> 02:13:46,960 Speaker 1: hope it doesn't turn into but yeah, in combat when 2386 02:13:47,000 --> 02:13:49,880 Speaker 1: you're that yeah, and I mean it obviously went through 2387 02:13:50,040 --> 02:13:52,840 Speaker 1: like it just takes over, like you know, Okay, these 2388 02:13:52,880 --> 02:13:54,520 Speaker 1: guys are down, like I gotta go help my guys. 2389 02:13:54,720 --> 02:13:57,440 Speaker 1: Have a great job by you by asking how he 2390 02:13:57,600 --> 02:14:00,320 Speaker 1: how he shucked the shotgun, I was, I'm sitting there, 2391 02:14:00,320 --> 02:14:03,400 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, like he describes his arms just dangling and 2392 02:14:03,480 --> 02:14:04,880 Speaker 1: it's like, all right, well what are you doing, buddy. 2393 02:14:05,120 --> 02:14:08,000 Speaker 1: It's just I pictured him like terminator just one hand 2394 02:14:08,040 --> 02:14:13,360 Speaker 1: in it, like uh, like Linda Hamilton's at least. I 2395 02:14:14,360 --> 02:14:17,320 Speaker 1: mean this, that whole story was just incredible because he 2396 02:14:17,520 --> 02:14:21,600 Speaker 1: was a grievous, grievously injured UM and stayed in the 2397 02:14:21,680 --> 02:14:25,040 Speaker 1: fight and he was still yeah, shocking rounds into the shotgun, firing, 2398 02:14:25,200 --> 02:14:28,720 Speaker 1: doing it again again again, and then actually like like 2399 02:14:29,080 --> 02:14:32,520 Speaker 1: passing out and he gets up and shuffles over to 2400 02:14:32,560 --> 02:14:36,160 Speaker 1: the car firing his service revolver. It's like, holy sh it, 2401 02:14:36,320 --> 02:14:38,960 Speaker 1: like this guy is hardcore. From beginning to end, that 2402 02:14:39,080 --> 02:14:41,840 Speaker 1: was just I mean, we we had known what this 2403 02:14:41,920 --> 02:14:44,040 Speaker 1: conversation was leading to, but just hearing and for it 2404 02:14:44,120 --> 02:14:47,680 Speaker 1: to only take from probably the time they recognized the 2405 02:14:47,760 --> 02:14:54,040 Speaker 1: vehicle for four minutes, five five minutes, like tops, that's crazy. 2406 02:14:54,080 --> 02:14:56,000 Speaker 1: You can go through a drive through fast, like in 2407 02:14:56,080 --> 02:14:57,600 Speaker 1: the the amount of the time it took and how 2408 02:14:57,840 --> 02:14:59,840 Speaker 1: he was saying he got out of his vehicle was 2409 02:15:00,040 --> 02:15:03,560 Speaker 1: running towards where the firefight was fifty yards I think 2410 02:15:03,640 --> 02:15:06,920 Speaker 1: he said, and that that's that's a long movement to 2411 02:15:07,040 --> 02:15:09,880 Speaker 1: make in a firefight. Half half a football field. Um, 2412 02:15:10,920 --> 02:15:12,920 Speaker 1: And he says the next thing, I remember, I'm staring 2413 02:15:12,960 --> 02:15:14,640 Speaker 1: up at the sky, which and he's like I don't 2414 02:15:14,640 --> 02:15:18,040 Speaker 1: know how I got there, Yeah, because your forums blasted. 2415 02:15:18,360 --> 02:15:20,640 Speaker 1: But um, but you know he's given a t is straight, 2416 02:15:20,840 --> 02:15:22,920 Speaker 1: you know, which I appreciate you and you acknowledge that 2417 02:15:23,040 --> 02:15:25,800 Speaker 1: like you need to interject humor otherwise you know, well 2418 02:15:25,880 --> 02:15:28,600 Speaker 1: that that as well. Yeah, um but he I mean, 2419 02:15:29,240 --> 02:15:32,040 Speaker 1: that was an incredible story and and the true story, 2420 02:15:32,120 --> 02:15:35,160 Speaker 1: like Hollywood couldn't script something like that. That was just 2421 02:15:36,040 --> 02:15:38,120 Speaker 1: five minutes long from beginning to end, and it was 2422 02:15:38,800 --> 02:15:41,920 Speaker 1: jam packed. And he and thirty what was it eighty 2423 02:15:42,000 --> 02:15:44,440 Speaker 1: six or thirty two, thirty three years later, thirty four, 2424 02:15:44,440 --> 02:15:46,560 Speaker 1: I don't even know, thirty four years later, and he 2425 02:15:46,600 --> 02:15:50,600 Speaker 1: still remembers it as if it was yesterday. And yeah, 2426 02:15:50,640 --> 02:15:55,080 Speaker 1: for sure, but definitely not. But just every detail of 2427 02:15:55,160 --> 02:15:58,360 Speaker 1: it was yeah, and well, you know what it comes 2428 02:15:58,400 --> 02:16:00,520 Speaker 1: down to. And one of the things that I people 2429 02:16:00,600 --> 02:16:03,400 Speaker 1: get out of listening to these some of these podcast 2430 02:16:03,480 --> 02:16:05,920 Speaker 1: interviews and stuff is that like America is just lucky 2431 02:16:05,960 --> 02:16:09,120 Speaker 1: to have these people without a doubt, you know that 2432 02:16:09,440 --> 02:16:12,800 Speaker 1: that you know these people are out there, uh, and 2433 02:16:13,400 --> 02:16:17,160 Speaker 1: that they're on our side. Um, you know, Ed was 2434 02:16:17,200 --> 02:16:20,200 Speaker 1: actually he was another listener recommendation. So, like I said, 2435 02:16:20,240 --> 02:16:24,000 Speaker 1: I was vaguely familiar with the you know, the Miami 2436 02:16:24,160 --> 02:16:28,480 Speaker 1: FBI shootout, UM, because it's pretty famous or infamous if 2437 02:16:28,560 --> 02:16:31,600 Speaker 1: you will. UM, but I never would have thought that 2438 02:16:31,640 --> 02:16:34,640 Speaker 1: we'd be able to get ed on the show. Um, 2439 02:16:34,840 --> 02:16:37,400 Speaker 1: but we he was referred to us, and you know, 2440 02:16:37,520 --> 02:16:40,800 Speaker 1: introductions were made a great job about you guys. Yeah, yeah, 2441 02:16:41,040 --> 02:16:44,040 Speaker 1: So thank you very much for that. UM. Hopefully you 2442 02:16:44,120 --> 02:16:45,800 Speaker 1: enjoyed it as much as we did. I don't see 2443 02:16:45,840 --> 02:16:49,960 Speaker 1: how you could not. That was incredible. UM. So yeah, 2444 02:16:50,120 --> 02:16:51,680 Speaker 1: listeners are not going it out of the park with 2445 02:16:51,760 --> 02:16:55,560 Speaker 1: these recommendations lately. UM, I'm glad. I'm glad I asked them, 2446 02:16:55,760 --> 02:16:59,440 Speaker 1: you know, for sure, Like I think the last definitely, 2447 02:16:59,480 --> 02:17:02,600 Speaker 1: Cody was a recommendation. I think, UM, trying to think 2448 02:17:03,400 --> 02:17:06,840 Speaker 1: the next one will be. So there's a tease. UM, No, 2449 02:17:07,040 --> 02:17:09,520 Speaker 1: just the listeners phenomenal. You get. You sent me the 2450 02:17:09,560 --> 02:17:11,840 Speaker 1: list you were like, hey, these guys suggested I don't 2451 02:17:11,879 --> 02:17:13,440 Speaker 1: know whatever, it was twelve people, and you know, we've 2452 02:17:13,440 --> 02:17:15,440 Speaker 1: been reaching out and we've got on a handful of 2453 02:17:15,520 --> 02:17:17,600 Speaker 1: them so far, and every one of them has been 2454 02:17:17,600 --> 02:17:19,920 Speaker 1: a home run. I like, I mean, I wouldn't say 2455 02:17:19,920 --> 02:17:22,760 Speaker 1: otherwise anyway, But no, they truly they that would just 2456 02:17:22,840 --> 02:17:25,240 Speaker 1: be bad business on my end. But they truly have 2457 02:17:25,400 --> 02:17:28,120 Speaker 1: been incredible interviews. I mean, and we talked about this 2458 02:17:28,200 --> 02:17:30,560 Speaker 1: every time after every interview, is that it's such an 2459 02:17:30,600 --> 02:17:34,280 Speaker 1: individual story with the overall umbrella, like you know, these 2460 02:17:34,320 --> 02:17:38,120 Speaker 1: people are heroes and I we had talked about it 2461 02:17:38,360 --> 02:17:40,280 Speaker 1: at the end of last episode, but I knew Ed 2462 02:17:40,400 --> 02:17:42,200 Speaker 1: was gonna do this when we asked him about the 2463 02:17:42,200 --> 02:17:44,360 Speaker 1: Middle valor and he was like, you know, I was 2464 02:17:44,440 --> 02:17:45,800 Speaker 1: just doing much and I knew he was gonna do it, 2465 02:17:45,920 --> 02:17:48,040 Speaker 1: like I'm just doing my job. And it's like he 2466 02:17:48,360 --> 02:17:52,640 Speaker 1: did a little bit more than just doing his job, right, Like, hey, buddy, 2467 02:17:52,720 --> 02:17:55,920 Speaker 1: like any other normal humans, you know, got a chicken 2468 02:17:55,959 --> 02:17:57,720 Speaker 1: wing for an arm and and they're you know, I'm 2469 02:17:57,720 --> 02:18:00,320 Speaker 1: not I'm not loading shotguns. I'm just I'm high under 2470 02:18:00,320 --> 02:18:02,000 Speaker 1: a car and calling it up. Yeah, he deserved it. 2471 02:18:02,120 --> 02:18:06,240 Speaker 1: He went above and beyond that day. So honestly, I 2472 02:18:06,320 --> 02:18:08,120 Speaker 1: thank you very much for coming on that was that 2473 02:18:08,200 --> 02:18:11,000 Speaker 1: was incredible. Hopefully the listeners you guys should enjoy it 2474 02:18:11,040 --> 02:18:14,039 Speaker 1: as much as as Jack and I did. Um also 2475 02:18:14,520 --> 02:18:16,400 Speaker 1: be sure to check out Create Club. It's a club 2476 02:18:16,560 --> 02:18:19,560 Speaker 1: four men by men of Gear Hand picked by Special 2477 02:18:19,640 --> 02:18:23,000 Speaker 1: Operations veterans. All tier crates are available at Create club 2478 02:18:23,120 --> 02:18:26,080 Speaker 1: dot us and right now we're running an extremely limited 2479 02:18:26,120 --> 02:18:30,119 Speaker 1: promotion of off for all softwarep radio listeners. That's you, guys. 2480 02:18:30,959 --> 02:18:33,280 Speaker 1: This is the biggest discount we've ever made available and 2481 02:18:33,360 --> 02:18:35,960 Speaker 1: we're not entirely sure how long this promotion will last, 2482 02:18:36,440 --> 02:18:39,000 Speaker 1: So get on it right now. That's Create club dot 2483 02:18:39,120 --> 02:18:43,199 Speaker 1: us coupon code soft rep s O f R EP 2484 02:18:44,320 --> 02:18:48,320 Speaker 1: off your subscription for all creates. Sign up today. Also 2485 02:18:48,360 --> 02:18:50,320 Speaker 1: as a reminder to you, the listener, now is the 2486 02:18:50,400 --> 02:18:52,959 Speaker 1: time to sign up for spec Ops Channel, our channel 2487 02:18:53,000 --> 02:18:56,879 Speaker 1: that offers the most exclusive shows, documentaries and interviews covering 2488 02:18:56,920 --> 02:18:59,920 Speaker 1: the most exciting military content. The spec ops Channel for 2489 02:19:00,040 --> 02:19:03,840 Speaker 1: Mere Show Training Cell follows former Special Operations Forces as 2490 02:19:03,879 --> 02:19:06,120 Speaker 1: they participate in the most advanced training in the country, 2491 02:19:06,600 --> 02:19:10,520 Speaker 1: everything from shooting schools, defensive driving, jungle and winter warfare, 2492 02:19:10,720 --> 02:19:13,560 Speaker 1: climbing and much more. Again, you can watch this content 2493 02:19:13,640 --> 02:19:16,200 Speaker 1: by subscribing to the spec Ops channel at spec ops 2494 02:19:16,280 --> 02:19:18,880 Speaker 1: channel dot com and take advantage of a membership for 2495 02:19:18,920 --> 02:19:22,120 Speaker 1: only four ninety nine a month that specops channel dot com. 2496 02:19:22,480 --> 02:19:25,080 Speaker 1: Sign up today last if you're not already signed up 2497 02:19:25,080 --> 02:19:27,040 Speaker 1: at the news Rep dot Com. You've got to get 2498 02:19:27,120 --> 02:19:30,760 Speaker 1: on board expert reporting and actionable intelligence from your favorite 2499 02:19:30,760 --> 02:19:33,240 Speaker 1: writers you've heard on here, like Jack Murphy is recent 2500 02:19:33,360 --> 02:19:35,200 Speaker 1: article on Eddie Gallagher. Be sure to check that out. 2501 02:19:35,200 --> 02:19:38,400 Speaker 1: We talked about in the open. Uh stav Rose, Alex 2502 02:19:38,440 --> 02:19:41,240 Speaker 1: hops on every now and then. UH Greg Walker, he 2503 02:19:41,400 --> 02:19:43,880 Speaker 1: was on a couple of weeks ago. There's many more 2504 02:19:43,920 --> 02:19:46,879 Speaker 1: who pop in. You get unlimited access to news Wrap 2505 02:19:46,959 --> 02:19:50,040 Speaker 1: on any device, unlimited access to the app, and you 2506 02:19:50,080 --> 02:19:52,920 Speaker 1: get to join the war room community. There's invitations to 2507 02:19:52,959 --> 02:19:55,600 Speaker 1: our exclusive events and it's all add free for members. 2508 02:19:56,160 --> 02:19:57,920 Speaker 1: We have a trial offer up right now where you 2509 02:19:57,959 --> 02:20:01,320 Speaker 1: can get four weeks for only one sign up at 2510 02:20:01,320 --> 02:20:05,040 Speaker 1: the news rep dot com. That's the news rep dot com. 2511 02:20:06,000 --> 02:20:07,560 Speaker 1: By the way, if you're not aware, we have our 2512 02:20:07,600 --> 02:20:09,920 Speaker 1: own Softwrep Radio app that you can download for free 2513 02:20:09,959 --> 02:20:13,120 Speaker 1: on iPhone or Android, and our homepage is soft rep 2514 02:20:13,240 --> 02:20:16,160 Speaker 1: radio dot com where you can see our full archive 2515 02:20:16,240 --> 02:20:19,039 Speaker 1: of shows. As always, keep up with us at soft 2516 02:20:19,080 --> 02:20:23,520 Speaker 1: Rep Radio as well. With that, I don't think much 2517 02:20:24,640 --> 02:20:28,160 Speaker 1: needs to be said that ed was very lengthy. I 2518 02:20:28,640 --> 02:20:31,800 Speaker 1: was I didn't know I couldn't gauge through email. You 2519 02:20:31,879 --> 02:20:33,840 Speaker 1: can I usually have a good feel of like, all right, 2520 02:20:33,879 --> 02:20:35,480 Speaker 1: this guy's gonna be like Cody. I knew was gonna 2521 02:20:35,520 --> 02:20:37,960 Speaker 1: be entertaining. Ed was very yes, so I'd love to 2522 02:20:38,000 --> 02:20:39,640 Speaker 1: come on. Thank you for the opportunity. So I was like, 2523 02:20:39,640 --> 02:20:41,480 Speaker 1: all right, he might be buttoned up, he was anything, 2524 02:20:41,560 --> 02:20:43,880 Speaker 1: but he he let loose right from the get go, 2525 02:20:44,040 --> 02:20:47,000 Speaker 1: which we greatly. Yeah, it's his story, so he knows 2526 02:20:47,080 --> 02:20:49,480 Speaker 1: it quite well and he would hope so yeah. Um, 2527 02:20:49,800 --> 02:20:51,800 Speaker 1: and that's why it's great that you know here directly 2528 02:20:51,840 --> 02:20:54,400 Speaker 1: from the source, oh, without question. But yeah, there's not 2529 02:20:54,560 --> 02:20:59,600 Speaker 1: much much I in say to follow onto that wild shootout. 2530 02:20:59,600 --> 02:21:02,080 Speaker 1: In my head is everything like HiT's all the boxes, 2531 02:21:02,320 --> 02:21:05,040 Speaker 1: you know, everything you wanted to be. The good guys 2532 02:21:05,080 --> 02:21:07,560 Speaker 1: win in the end. Well, there are two agents lost. 2533 02:21:07,720 --> 02:21:11,640 Speaker 1: That it's not everything but tragic, but all all things considered, 2534 02:21:12,520 --> 02:21:14,760 Speaker 1: outside of there, yeah, the two what was it? Ben 2535 02:21:14,879 --> 02:21:17,560 Speaker 1: and Jerry, Which it's hard not like he said that, 2536 02:21:17,640 --> 02:21:19,400 Speaker 1: and obviously that being the large man I am you 2537 02:21:19,480 --> 02:21:22,720 Speaker 1: think ice cream, but it's like, uh so sorry for 2538 02:21:22,800 --> 02:21:27,360 Speaker 1: their loss obviously four years later. Um, but outside of that, Ed, 2539 02:21:27,480 --> 02:21:30,320 Speaker 1: thanks for coming on. That was awesome. Be sure to 2540 02:21:30,400 --> 02:21:33,920 Speaker 1: check us out, subscribe, rate review, do the whole nine. Uh. 2541 02:21:34,080 --> 02:21:37,800 Speaker 1: Leave us messages on Instagram, Twitter, email the show. If 2542 02:21:37,800 --> 02:21:40,520 Speaker 1: you got any questions, we're happy to throw them out there. 2543 02:21:40,560 --> 02:21:43,200 Speaker 1: So I hope you guys enjoyed this one and we 2544 02:21:43,280 --> 02:21:46,160 Speaker 1: will see you again Tuesday. Next time. You've been listening 2545 02:21:46,280 --> 02:21:50,959 Speaker 1: to self Rep Radio. New episodes up every Wednesday and Friday. 2546 02:21:51,840 --> 02:21:55,240 Speaker 1: Follow the show on Instagram and Twitter at self Rep 2547 02:21:55,360 --> 02:21:55,680 Speaker 1: Radio