Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast with Doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman, where we give you insights into the mind, brain, behavior,
Speaker 1: and creativity. Each episode will feature a new guest who
Speaker 1: will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding
Speaker 1: of yourself, others, and the world we live in. Hopefully
Speaker 1: we'll also provide a glimpse into human possibility. Thanks for
Speaker 1: listening and enjoy the podcast today. It's a great pleasure
Speaker 1: to have executive activists and entrepreneur Sarah rob o'hagen on
Speaker 1: the podcast. Oh Hagen has been described by the media
Speaker 1: as everything from Superwomen Uncover to the pied Piper of potential.
Speaker 1: She's a high energy combination of disruptive business leader, fitness fanatic,
Speaker 1: and cheerleading mom. Has been named one of Forbes's most
Speaker 1: Powerful Women in Sports and one of Company's most creative
Speaker 1: people in Business. As CEO of the fast growing indoor
Speaker 1: cycling company Flyweel Sports, she is currently leading the transformation
Speaker 1: of the business through digital content and services. Prior to
Speaker 1: this role, Sarah became an internationally recognized reinventor of brands,
Speaker 1: having served as global president of the sports brand Gatorade,
Speaker 1: where she successfully led the business through a major repositioning
Speaker 1: and business turnaround, and global president of the luxury fitness
Speaker 1: company Equinox, where she reinvented the offering through a significant
Speaker 1: technology transformation. Sarah's latest book is called Extreme You, Step Up,
Speaker 1: stand Out, Kick Ass and Repeat. So great to have
Speaker 1: you on the podcast today, Sarah. So good to be here, Scott, Wow,
Speaker 1: how'd I do with that bio? Did I kick ass? Or?
Speaker 1: Oh my god? I half acet or one? That was
Speaker 1: not easy to get through. I thought I had to
Speaker 1: read your book. I had to read your book in
Speaker 1: order to get through that bio. And we didn't even
Speaker 1: get to the true parts in the bio, like the
Speaker 1: Sarah's screws up parts. But anyway we can talk about
Speaker 1: all that. I have that in my notes to talk about.
Speaker 1: So I took the quiz that was prepared by my
Speaker 1: colleague reb Rebellious. Yes, I love it and he's great,
Speaker 1: and I was excited to take it. And my results
Speaker 1: were you have your assing gear. Yeah, you're like one
Speaker 1: point away from being ask You're doing great, right, So
Speaker 1: thank you for that encouragement. That was my quote extremer quotient.
Speaker 1: And I advise I suggest all listeners to go online
Speaker 1: to Sarah's website. We'll put in the show notes and
Speaker 1: getting your extremer quotient. I like extremer quotient better than
Speaker 1: intelligence quotient. Let's just say that that's higher than my
Speaker 1: intelligence quotient was. So could you imagine that? Like, I
Speaker 1: would rather like as a parent to be told your
Speaker 1: child has his or her assing gear, as opposed to
Speaker 1: your child is not as intelligent as this other person.
Speaker 1: You know, Oh for sure, any day, I would rather
Speaker 1: have someone who's got their resilience and grip meter under control.
Speaker 1: That's what really being heavy your ass and gear is
Speaker 1: all about. Yeah, so those are two good buzzwords they use.
Speaker 1: They're good. They're good grit and resilience. Now you learned
Speaker 1: a lot about both of those factors personally in your
Speaker 1: own life, right, I mean you didn't like you weren't
Speaker 1: born kicking ass? Right? Definitely? Not? Well, actually maybe technically,
Speaker 1: but I love that you were not born kicking ass.
Speaker 1: That's perfect. I mean, I mean I feel like technically
Speaker 1: you were probably we don't if we think about this
Speaker 1: too much, you probably were like coming out, you know,
Speaker 1: kicking physically and liked be like, oh I get me
Speaker 1: out of here, but not in the sense in which
Speaker 1: you mean. Now, so you learned a lot a common theme.
Speaker 1: I've read a lot of your writings in order to
Speaker 1: prepare for this interview, and a common theme seems to
Speaker 1: be that you learn to win by failing. Is that right? Yeah? Definitely, yeah.
Speaker 1: And it's funny like I look back now, I'm forty
Speaker 1: five years old, and I feel like the most amative
Speaker 1: memories of my childhood were just really painful failures over
Speaker 1: and over again, whether it was you know, I remember
Speaker 1: failing a really big piano exam I had been preparing for,
Speaker 1: failing to make the sports team I was trying for,
Speaker 1: like just all those kinds of things, failing to make
Speaker 1: the A grade, you know. And I remember, just to
Speaker 1: your point of not being born kicking ass, I definitely
Speaker 1: felt like I was sort of I wouldn't say I
Speaker 1: felt like I was a loser, but I kind of
Speaker 1: kept thinking like why am I not reaching success? And
Speaker 1: I didn't really realize until years later on that all
Speaker 1: of those failures are what actually propelled me forward in
Speaker 1: the end, you know, So you wouldn't have treated that,
Speaker 1: Oh God, no, like I think at the time, I was.
Speaker 1: You know, especially as a sort of teenager, your life
Speaker 1: experience is very short, so these things are probably far
Speaker 1: more you know, painful and impactful than they would be
Speaker 1: you know later in life when you've got a little
Speaker 1: bit more experienced. But at the time, I just remember going, God,
Speaker 1: this is so painful. Why does it always happened to me?
Speaker 1: You know? Whereas now I look back and I even
Speaker 1: as a parent of three, you know, when my kids
Speaker 1: have those kinds of experiences. As much as it hurts me,
Speaker 1: like it hurts my heart seeing my kids go through
Speaker 1: a tough time, I also in the back of my mind,
Speaker 1: I'm like, yay, they're learning, you know, this is part
Speaker 1: of the journey. Yeah, this sounds a lot. I like
Speaker 1: you and have the growth mindset. Yes, definitely think of
Speaker 1: Carol's work definitely well. And also hope is in there
Speaker 1: as well. I'm just doing all the buzzwords here, but yeah, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: but I do. It's interesting you mentioned hope because people
Speaker 1: have often asked me like, why did you keep going?
Speaker 1: You know, because that is the obvious question, like if
Speaker 1: you keep failing, why do you bother to believe? And
Speaker 1: I don't know of hope, you would know better than
Speaker 1: me is nature or nurture. But I feel like for
Speaker 1: some reason, I just felt like I deserve to make it,
Speaker 1: Like like at some point I was going to get there,
Speaker 1: and I just for that reason, for sure, there was hope.
Speaker 1: I never stop believing that I could make something of myself. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is actually a reoccurring theme that I have disdiscussions
Speaker 1: because there is this common characteristic among a lot of
Speaker 1: hyper achievers i'll call them. That was even their aspiration
Speaker 1: as a kid. And you've been quoted as saying that
Speaker 1: that was explicitly an aspiration of yours kid. That a
Speaker 1: sort of level of confidence, sort of inner driven, something
Speaker 1: that's very like inner driven as opposed to outer driven.
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's tough to capture that. It's tough for
Speaker 1: I don't even know if we can necessarily we want
Speaker 1: to measure it, you know, but it is some sort
Speaker 1: of inefftable quality that does seem to propel a lot
Speaker 1: of these individuals forward. And you almost need that, whatever
Speaker 1: that is. You kind of need that to insulate yourself
Speaker 1: from the inevitable external criticisms and things, you know, like
Speaker 1: like me being in special at as a kid and
Speaker 1: being told I was stupid. I needed to like insulate
Speaker 1: myself from that external judgment. Yeah, for sure. And you know,
Speaker 1: it's interesting you recall that experience for you on one
Speaker 1: of the things that was so powerful to me about
Speaker 1: all the people I interviewed from my book, you know,
Speaker 1: many of whom are some of the most successful humans
Speaker 1: on the planet. So many of them didn't start out
Speaker 1: that way. But what to me stood them apart from
Speaker 1: everyday people was that just I guess whether you call
Speaker 1: it confidence or bravery, I don't know, but it's belief
Speaker 1: in yourself despite the fact other people around you telling
Speaker 1: you not to do things, and I think you know that.
Speaker 1: To me, it is like how do you cultivate that
Speaker 1: behavior or trait? And kids like because at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, really successful people, whether it's being an
Speaker 1: entrepreneur or you know, an athlete, whatever it is, like
Speaker 1: you'll always come up against people that will tell you
Speaker 1: all the reasons why you shouldn't do it because they're
Speaker 1: not you, so they see all of the kind of
Speaker 1: the reasons where things can go wrong, and they may
Speaker 1: not have the sort of screaming intuition that you do
Speaker 1: or the passion to go after something, but you have
Speaker 1: to learn to own become those and so to me,
Speaker 1: that was the difference in these people. They just had
Speaker 1: that sense of no, this is who I am and
Speaker 1: I know where I'm going. Yeah, and how do you
Speaker 1: balance that with humility? The thing that's cool about your
Speaker 1: book is you cover lots of ways of kicking ass,
Speaker 1: but some of them may seem contradictory with others, but
Speaker 1: they're not right, not necessarily. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I
Speaker 1: mean yeah, because I think that was like one of
Speaker 1: the biggest you know, spending the time with you and
Speaker 1: my friend Red, trying to really distill what we're the
Speaker 1: sort of psychological behaviors that were common between these people,
Speaker 1: and humility was a huge, one, huge one, because I
Speaker 1: think humility in itself is those head in hand with curiosity,
Speaker 1: doesn't it, And therefore you're open to realize have all
Speaker 1: the answers. Therefore you're open to learn and see things differently.
Speaker 1: And to me, that's a very very important behavior trait
Speaker 1: to cultivate is just one of the things that blew
Speaker 1: me away with these people I interviewed. I mean, some
Speaker 1: of them so so so successful, slash famous, you know,
Speaker 1: who would sort of say, oh, you know, Are you
Speaker 1: sure I'm going to make it into the book? Are
Speaker 1: you sure I'm not going to be on the count
Speaker 1: Roy Colore? I'm like, wait what? But I think that
Speaker 1: comes from this just really deep seated level of humility. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's really cool that you got that from
Speaker 1: a lot of those individuals, because you don't. I think
Speaker 1: that we can sometimes hear the message kick ass and
Speaker 1: let that overshadow this other part as well. You know,
Speaker 1: we have a lot of adolescents who are growing up
Speaker 1: very entitled with a kick ass attitude. And I think
Speaker 1: you're talking about it in a different way though, and
Speaker 1: you're bringing in these nuances and these ways of these
Speaker 1: seemingly kindradictrient ways of being, but which all kind of
Speaker 1: need each other in kind of a puzzle jigsaw puzzles,
Speaker 1: sort of like they need each other in order to
Speaker 1: truly kick ass, not kick ass any narcissistic way. Yes, right, yes,
Speaker 1: hundred percent. Like I even went as far as I
Speaker 1: gave a great story of my book about trying to
Speaker 1: explain this and the story about myself. When I was
Speaker 1: in my early twenties, I got my first ever promotion
Speaker 1: where I was managing people. You know, two people reporting
Speaker 1: to me. Now the ass kicking I'm the shit side
Speaker 1: of me, you know, could have easily just gone had
Speaker 1: that go to my head. But then my boss actually
Speaker 1: in the discussion of this promotion, says to me, but
Speaker 1: I do have to let you know that you don't
Speaker 1: dress well enough, like you don't come across like a leader.
Speaker 1: And this whole story of me having to go and
Speaker 1: freaking shop at Ann Taylor with this guy's girl friend,
Speaker 1: I mean, it was mortifying, right, And whereas initially my
Speaker 1: mental response was like, who the hell do you think
Speaker 1: you are to judge the way I address you, old
Speaker 1: man you? But then you realize if you actually do
Speaker 1: have underneath that some level of humility, you like, he's
Speaker 1: telling me this for a reason. What's he getting out
Speaker 1: of this? It can't be fun to tell a young
Speaker 1: woman that she dresses badly, like he's clearly doing it
Speaker 1: because he's trying to help me be better. And once
Speaker 1: you reframe that, that sort of changes things completely, and
Speaker 1: that opens your mind to your own potential. I think, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so there's an open mindedness combined with inner confidence, combined
Speaker 1: with humility. Yes, this is really an episode about combinations.
Speaker 1: So let's see what else can we add on this?
Speaker 1: What about check yourself out? Tell me about that, Tell
Speaker 1: me about that one? We add that one? Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it's funny that that's one that rad really helped me
Speaker 1: sort of pull out. What is it? And it is
Speaker 1: about having openness to experience, you know, and like we
Speaker 1: all meet people in life who you know, go on
Speaker 1: vacation with the same people to the same place every year,
Speaker 1: or you have lunch with the same people at the
Speaker 1: same restaurant every day. And the ones who are more
Speaker 1: open to just try different things. Like if you're away
Speaker 1: on a business trip and and you land and you
Speaker 1: find that you have five hours free before the conference
Speaker 1: you're at starts, do you sit in your room doing email?
Speaker 1: Or do you check out the city that you're in?
Speaker 1: You know, it's amazing how these people I call them
Speaker 1: extremers all had that like, wait, I'm in a new place.
Speaker 1: What can I find out? What what is here? I
Speaker 1: responded that way in that in that one. Oh no,
Speaker 1: wait no, wait, wait, wait wait a minute, wait a minute.
Speaker 1: I think I may have said I wanted to stay
Speaker 1: in the hotel room and watch TV. Maybe that's why
Speaker 1: I'm one point away. Maybe that's why I think the point.
Speaker 1: I think that's the point, you know, because it really
Speaker 1: often traveling is exhausting, and also there are introvert extrovert
Speaker 1: differences as well. But I'm very curious about what's on
Speaker 1: that TV. Yeah, and by the way, let's talk about
Speaker 1: introverts and extroverts for a second, because one of the
Speaker 1: things that a lot of people have the name of
Speaker 1: my book is extreme You, and they assume that that
Speaker 1: means loud, extroverted, bossy thing you can imagine. And actually
Speaker 1: I purposely profiled some incredible introverts within the book because
Speaker 1: being extreme You is being the most potent maximum version
Speaker 1: of yourself, like leveraging everything that you bring to the table,
Speaker 1: things you care about, the things you're good at, and
Speaker 1: introverts like because they have deliver in this extroverted world,
Speaker 1: I think often we overlook the awesomeness that they bring
Speaker 1: to the table. And so, yes, checking out something on
Speaker 1: the TV. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. That's education,
Speaker 1: that's learning, that's whatever. At least it's not just sitting there.
Speaker 1: I have to respond to all my emails. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: was one of the other options I did not put. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you for saying that. And you know, Susan Kate
Speaker 1: is a very dear friend of mine and is doing
Speaker 1: really cool work with that. And yeah, and I like
Speaker 1: the idea of kicking asses transcending your temperament in that dimension,
Speaker 1: but there are other temperaments that are contributing to this.
Speaker 1: So what about the temperament of neuroticism. I imagine that
Speaker 1: if you have a lot of persistent fear and anxiety,
Speaker 1: that's going to consistently keep you away from kicking ass
Speaker 1: right totally. And I think on all of these so
Speaker 1: that one, for sure, you know fear, You know it's
Speaker 1: on you to sort of learn to overcome your fears.
Speaker 1: But you know, I think about the introvert extrovert thing
Speaker 1: again for a second. It's like, I do not subscribe
Speaker 1: to any belief that introverts should have to change their
Speaker 1: behaviors to live in this crazy extroverted world. However, I
Speaker 1: do believe that introverts and extroverts, by spending time together,
Speaker 1: can really bring out the best in one another. And
Speaker 1: so you know, I have a great story in the
Speaker 1: book of a woman that I worked with actually who
Speaker 1: was very introverted, and even though by the end of
Speaker 1: our time together. You know, it wasn't something she wanted
Speaker 1: to step up and give big presentations in a corporate setting.
Speaker 1: Overcoming the fears and whatever it was to get there
Speaker 1: was such a huge win for her. Likewise, her ability
Speaker 1: to slow me down and see things that at a
Speaker 1: deeper level more, it was such a huge win for me,
Speaker 1: you know. And so I always tell people you should
Speaker 1: not you know, feel you have to put yourself in
Speaker 1: the opposite behavior shoes. But like tapping into people with
Speaker 1: opposite strength to you can really help you just bring
Speaker 1: out more of who you are and get one step
Speaker 1: closer to what you're trying to be. I like that,
Speaker 1: and also maybe embracing contradictory instincts within you, within yourself.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's no saying that if you are, on
Speaker 1: average an introvert, that you can't get enjoyment from acting extroverted.
Speaker 1: In fact, there's a lot of research on you can,
Speaker 1: and there's no reason saying it. As an extrovert on average,
Speaker 1: you can't really get a great enjoyment watching TV and relaxing,
Speaker 1: you know, and like reading a good book. Yeah, why
Speaker 1: do you think I run so much? Get away from
Speaker 1: all of the people in my life and have quiet
Speaker 1: time for sure. Yeah. None of this stuff is absolute
Speaker 1: than anyone you know. Okay, can you tell me about
Speaker 1: the freezing of this one a lot? So ignite your
Speaker 1: magic drive? Anything does the word magic in it? I
Speaker 1: tend to like. So. Yeah. I spend a lot of
Speaker 1: time trying to figure out why are some people more
Speaker 1: driven than others? Because you know, we've all met those
Speaker 1: people in our life where you go, wow, you're so driven, Like,
Speaker 1: where does that come from? And in the end, for me,
Speaker 1: it is associated to checking yourself out, which we talked
Speaker 1: about before, so really having spent the time sort of
Speaker 1: sampling and exploring things to really understand what you love
Speaker 1: and frankly what you hate, so that you're getting yourself
Speaker 1: into the right path that works for you. But then,
Speaker 1: what I noticed for people who have a lot of drive,
Speaker 1: it's generally because they've set themselves a goal that is
Speaker 1: a little bit of a stretch. You know, it's not
Speaker 1: easy to attain, it's not impossible to attain, but it's
Speaker 1: far enough out you know, they're pushing themselves to get there,
Speaker 1: and it's like once they get to that goal. I
Speaker 1: use the mountaineering analogy, like you get to the top
Speaker 1: of the mountain, you suddenly see there's a whole beautiful
Speaker 1: mountain range behind it that you couldn't see before. Now
Speaker 1: you want to go tackle that one. Yeah, And people
Speaker 1: I notice people talk about that their drive waned when
Speaker 1: they didn't feel challenged in that way, like if they
Speaker 1: got to the top of the mountain, they were just
Speaker 1: hanging out. Might be fun for a while, but then
Speaker 1: it was kind of like, my drive's gone. I've lost
Speaker 1: that challenge. Good good, good, good good. So where's the
Speaker 1: magic part come in there? I just think the magic
Speaker 1: is when you connect, You set the goal against something
Speaker 1: that you realize you really care about, it's your thing,
Speaker 1: and you push it far enough out that it's like
Speaker 1: triggering in you this like magical desire to make it happen.
Speaker 1: And I think the third piece that contributes to the
Speaker 1: magic drive is often telling others about it. You know,
Speaker 1: so many people told me, like they'd told their friends,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go, you know, climb a mountain, or
Speaker 1: I'm going to go start a new company. And because
Speaker 1: all these other people say here's the thousands of reasons
Speaker 1: why it won't happen, it like triggered in them just like,
Speaker 1: let me show you good. Yeah, I really like that one. Actually, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so let's talk about getting over yourself. And we kind
Speaker 1: of already touched on that, right, but yeah, that's the
Speaker 1: one mainly about humility. Humility very just a little bit,
Speaker 1: you know, one aspect of getting over yourself as well.
Speaker 1: I noticed the importance of laughing at yourself. Yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: that's a thing. So agree with you. Like, I feel
Speaker 1: like we live in the society that just puts so
Speaker 1: much weight on everyone looking perfect and amazing. And you know,
Speaker 1: everyone said to me, I've had the comments so many
Speaker 1: times that it is unbelievably rare for an executive of
Speaker 1: your level to be willing to just put it out
Speaker 1: there and talk about how epically you've failed and the
Speaker 1: embarrassing things you've done. And I'm like, I get it.
Speaker 1: But if you just laugh for yourself, there's nothing to
Speaker 1: be scared of anymore. Like every human screws up. It's
Speaker 1: not new news, you know. And I think it's when
Speaker 1: you try to hide it and put on this kind
Speaker 1: of like airs of being perfect that you kind of
Speaker 1: live with the fear that someone's going to find out
Speaker 1: the truth. Yeah, and you've said this phrase somewhere stay
Speaker 1: stubbornly humble. Oh yes, I love that. Uh. I never
Speaker 1: heard that before. We came up with it when writing
Speaker 1: the book because it was just again, so many of
Speaker 1: the successful people we spoke to, they had that willingness
Speaker 1: to just not get ahead of their skis, not get
Speaker 1: to you know, cocky, I get this, or arrogant. And
Speaker 1: I do think, like from time to time, look at
Speaker 1: yourself from the outside in and say, you know, am
Speaker 1: I getting stressed out about the way I appear appearances?
Speaker 1: Or am I getting stressed out because I'm really not,
Speaker 1: you know, achieving my goal or whatever. The former is
Speaker 1: something to just like take it off the table. It's
Speaker 1: a waste of effort and energy. I mean, I used
Speaker 1: to worry back in the day about like how embarrassing
Speaker 1: the pictures of me on the internet were, And now
Speaker 1: I'm at the stage where I like openly tell everyone,
Speaker 1: here's the Google the link of the worst picture of
Speaker 1: me with helmet hair after I had my third child,
Speaker 1: because it's hilarious. I love that referring. I mean, I
Speaker 1: there was this big Think interview where I did have
Speaker 1: the worst haircut ever known to man or a woman,
Speaker 1: and I will admit, like I can admit that, No,
Speaker 1: that was a really bad haircut, and I deserved all
Speaker 1: the everything I got. So I would like to challenge
Speaker 1: you because I feel like mine might have been worse.
Speaker 1: I'm talking like giant bad bangs. It was just like
Speaker 1: everyone was like, what were you thinking? Yeah, at least
Speaker 1: they knew it was hair. People thought I was wearing
Speaker 1: a helmet, so that was the problem there, it was.
Speaker 1: I mean, at least you could tell it was hair.
Speaker 1: But okay, yes, so far this is really great stuff.
Speaker 1: And I love that you're incorporating things like humility and
Speaker 1: getting over yourself into a model of kicking ass because
Speaker 1: you know, it didn't need to be the case, right,
Speaker 1: you could see that. So I like that a lot.
Speaker 1: What about what's the connection between igniting your magic drive
Speaker 1: and playing your specialist game? I feel like those two
Speaker 1: are really related, right, definitely, So this idea of playing
Speaker 1: a specialist game. I stumbled upon that actually by looking
Speaker 1: at you know, my whole career has been in marketing
Speaker 1: for the most part before I became a CEO, and
Speaker 1: so I've worked for some of the most sustaining global
Speaker 1: brands that have really impacted us, whether it was Nike
Speaker 1: or Virgin or gatoray by these great, big, important brands,
Speaker 1: and what they all have in common is that they
Speaker 1: focus on a very very specialist position in the marketplace
Speaker 1: and therefore say no to a lot of things. So
Speaker 1: for example, you know, get me anyone who will raise
Speaker 1: their hand and say I fucking love United Airlines. That
Speaker 1: would be nobody, right, Whereas Virgin people passionately talk about
Speaker 1: it because they have this very specialist positioning that they
Speaker 1: bring to life in the market and they never waver
Speaker 1: from it. And I realized that that was actually a
Speaker 1: really interesting way to think about yourself as developing your
Speaker 1: career and making the most of your own skill. What
Speaker 1: is your positioning, what is your set of skills that
Speaker 1: are unique, and how do you sort of get your
Speaker 1: life onto your own playing field that really plays to
Speaker 1: your specialist skills. So that's this idea of playing the
Speaker 1: specious game. And I do believe that when you figure
Speaker 1: it out, it does trigger your drive. I mean by myself,
Speaker 1: I didn't start out my career in the airlines thinking
Speaker 1: that I was going to end up running fitness companies,
Speaker 1: but it was just the trial and error of things.
Speaker 1: I really loved and was good at versus things I
Speaker 1: really sucked at, Like when I worked at freaking Atari,
Speaker 1: the video game company. I mean I sucked at it.
Speaker 1: I was like, I hate video games, nothing about this
Speaker 1: is my specialist game. And I didn't do well, you
Speaker 1: know so, and I didn't want to do well. Whereas
Speaker 1: if if you find yourself in an environment where it's
Speaker 1: just so col to what you care about, suddenly the
Speaker 1: magic turns on and you're just driven in a way
Speaker 1: that you wouldn't otherwise be for sure. But when did
Speaker 1: you work at Atari? I'm really interested in that For
Speaker 1: a second. I was there, This is hilarious in around
Speaker 1: about two thousand and it was Atari had basically been
Speaker 1: acquired by a French video game publisher, and I was
Speaker 1: there to sort of help work on the rebranding of Atari.
Speaker 1: And it was a D for disaster. I mean it
Speaker 1: was like, Sarah is mortifyingly not good at what we
Speaker 1: need her to do here. Wait, did you say a
Speaker 1: diva disaster D for disaster? Oh? D for her? Okay,
Speaker 1: that that makes a lot more sense. Well, I mean
Speaker 1: I didn't even know Atari existed. Do they still exist? Yeah?
Speaker 1: They do, But it's basically just a shell. Now you know,
Speaker 1: it's just a brand name as opposed to a full
Speaker 1: operating company, which is sad because the heritage of what
Speaker 1: it really is is actually pretty cool. Oh I mean
Speaker 1: that was like my whole childhood, so I had palm
Speaker 1: come on, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, I mean that's I
Speaker 1: grew up on that. Okay, back to the specialist game idea. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's great. What are you drinking? Was that getory?
Speaker 1: What are you drinking? Oh, it's it's soda water. Were
Speaker 1: you at one point CEO of that company? I don't know.
Speaker 1: I kicked my twenty year diet coke habit. Oh well,
Speaker 1: that's that's actually pretty good. Good thing. You need to
Speaker 1: talk to Elon Musk about that, because here he's apparently
Speaker 1: he drinks like ten diet cokes a day or something
Speaker 1: once upon a time, and I'm really glad I don't now. Okay,
Speaker 1: back to the specialist game idea. So you use the
Speaker 1: word grit in the beginning, and I think there's a
Speaker 1: lot of discussion about like when the grit whendo quit
Speaker 1: sort of thing, like it's okay if you've engaged in
Speaker 1: something that's not your specialist game and you don't want
Speaker 1: to grid it right totally one hundred percent. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I do think that, you know, if people ask question,
Speaker 1: how do you know when to push you and when
Speaker 1: not to? But I think generally most of us do know.
Speaker 1: Like when I was a tatari, I actually ended up
Speaker 1: getting laid off. I could see it coming, if I'm
Speaker 1: really honest, you know, like I just not only was
Speaker 1: I not performing well, but I didn't enjoy it. I
Speaker 1: didn't get up in the morning going woo who I'm
Speaker 1: going to the office. And I think the difference between
Speaker 1: that and when you're in a role like when I
Speaker 1: was leaving the turnaround of Gatorade, which for eighteen months
Speaker 1: looked like it wasn't going to work, but I was
Speaker 1: so fucking passionately determined to make that thing succeed, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I also knew intuitively that even though it looked
Speaker 1: like it wasn't coming together, that it was eventually going
Speaker 1: to Like I had much more something that was right
Speaker 1: in my wheelhouse. And so I think most of us
Speaker 1: do know if you really listened to your to your gut. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I like that idea. You said that you kind of
Speaker 1: knew it was coming. It wasn't surprising. I mean I
Speaker 1: very rarely faced situations where I was really truly absorbed
Speaker 1: and immersed in something and you know, like got laid
Speaker 1: off a job, like people like, you know, we don't
Speaker 1: want you to work on that anymore. Like very rarely
Speaker 1: will someone say like we don't want you to work
Speaker 1: on something anymore that you are actually truly genuinely absorbed
Speaker 1: in so totally. But then there are the times I
Speaker 1: definitely paid those times where I thought I was like
Speaker 1: the ship and I got talk wasn't I was like, oh, okay, well,
Speaker 1: getting fully absorbed in genuinely and something it is not
Speaker 1: necessary the same thing as thinking you're the ship in it, right? Sure?
Speaker 1: So my point still hold. Yeah, definitely, Yeah, and according
Speaker 1: to your model of kicking ass, you should really keep
Speaker 1: your eyem the ship thoughts in check constantly. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: I love the next one obviously because I love creativity.
Speaker 1: Change the game, right, So it's the point of life
Speaker 1: is you know, let's praise it this way. Part of
Speaker 1: kicking ass is also changing someone's ass. We No, No,
Speaker 1: that's not I'm trying to say, I'm trying to come
Speaker 1: up with a better for Okay, you helped me out
Speaker 1: here because I'm embarrassed. This may be one of the
Speaker 1: most fun podcasts I've done in a while. I'm blushing
Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, I see it, I see you. The
Speaker 1: idea of changing the game is like, once you know
Speaker 1: your specialist game in terms of what do you really
Speaker 1: thrive at, you then want to use your skills to
Speaker 1: like innovate and create and change the game around you.
Speaker 1: And so you know some of the examples that I gave,
Speaker 1: and there obviously I use the business as example of
Speaker 1: the Gatorade turnaround, Like because their specialty was they knew
Speaker 1: more about exercise physiology and sports nutrition than any other
Speaker 1: company on the planet. Change the framework from being just
Speaker 1: a sports drink company to making all sorts of sports
Speaker 1: nutrition products. Right, that's a change the game moment and
Speaker 1: getting things on your terms instead of looking at competitors
Speaker 1: in their case power. But think about that for yourself personally.
Speaker 1: How many humans out there spend way too much time
Speaker 1: comparing themselves to the neighbors, to the other person in
Speaker 1: the cube next to you, Like that person's doing better
Speaker 1: than me, to making more money than me? Who gets
Speaker 1: a shit? Like play your own game and like move
Speaker 1: the environment around you to get the things your sort
Speaker 1: of turf that plays to who you are, and you'll
Speaker 1: do a whole lot better. Oh yeah, no, who'd agree
Speaker 1: with you? Is one of the great creative researchers E.
Speaker 1: Paul Torrance in the sixties. This is my world. I'm
Speaker 1: infusing it with your world. He had this manifesto for
Speaker 1: children that he came up with based on his work
Speaker 1: with all these really creative He followed these people up
Speaker 1: to find what were the best predictors of life on
Speaker 1: creativity Over a fifty year of time spend. He found
Speaker 1: one of the best predictors was kind of setting your
Speaker 1: own rules and finding your own game to play, and
Speaker 1: so he empirically found that predicted life on creative. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's cool. I'm gonna have to look him up. I'll
Speaker 1: send you. I'll send you his manifesto for children. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd love that. Cool. So I'm going to ask you
Speaker 1: one last question because I want to be respected all
Speaker 1: your time and we have a minute till thirty five more. Okay,
Speaker 1: so break yourself to make yourself? Now, how much do
Speaker 1: I really have? I don't like breaking myself generally, Like,
Speaker 1: what's the optimal level of breaking, and then what's the
Speaker 1: optimal level This is my question, what's the optical level breaking?
Speaker 1: And then also when am I allowed to have kicked
Speaker 1: ass enough for me personally? And then I'm like, good, like,
Speaker 1: is there a personal standard to kicking ass that's okay
Speaker 1: versus societal expectations of kicking ass? Go? So to answer
Speaker 1: that part first is I think it is all a
Speaker 1: personal standard, So you should only care about what you
Speaker 1: care about. But if you go through life and you
Speaker 1: a kicking ass and you're good with that and you
Speaker 1: just want to be good with that, that's your decision.
Speaker 1: But if you want to continue, like learn and grow,
Speaker 1: that's the idea of break yourself to make yourself And
Speaker 1: by the way, I'm going to make it very doable
Speaker 1: for you if you don't want it to be that painful.
Speaker 1: It can be as dramatic as I quit my job
Speaker 1: a year ago with nothing to go to and was
Speaker 1: fucking terrified, Like that's definitely breaking because that's putting you
Speaker 1: totally outside of your comfort zone. But it can be
Speaker 1: as little as in the year when I quit my job,
Speaker 1: I committed to my kids that I would take piano
Speaker 1: lessons again, and that was incredibly uncomfortable, like to be
Speaker 1: sitting like a child with an instructor teaching me and
Speaker 1: me having to play incredibly badly in front of it.
Speaker 1: But it was forcing me out of my comfort zone
Speaker 1: to learn something creative that actually, in its own way
Speaker 1: was opening up some more growth for me. So it
Speaker 1: could be anything, you know, It's just about making sure
Speaker 1: if you want to keep growing, that you have the
Speaker 1: curiosity to go explore and find something else to challenge
Speaker 1: you who. I was getting scared there that I was
Speaker 1: going to have to literally like break myself in order
Speaker 1: to make yourself. You're like, I could see you doing
Speaker 1: a rap, you know song like break yourself to make yourself.
Speaker 1: I don't know, that's not rap. That was like a ballad. Sorry,
Speaker 1: that was like not rap. Okay. So I want to
Speaker 1: thank you so much for kicking so much ass on
Speaker 1: this interview today and in life. And also I want
Speaker 1: to say congratulations. I think you may have used the
Speaker 1: F word just as many times as our prior first
Speaker 1: place winner, which was Mark Manson in his episode The
Speaker 1: Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, So congratulations on that.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Well, I've had a blast, Scott. This has
Speaker 1: been really fun and I look forward to staying in
Speaker 1: touch me too. Thank you so much, You're good bye.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to the Psychology Podcast
Speaker 1: with doctor Scott Barry Kaufman. I hope you found this
Speaker 1: episode just as thought provoking as I did. If something
Speaker 1: you heard today stimulated you in some way, I encourage
Speaker 1: you to join in the discussion at the