1 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: From Meat Eaters World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This 2 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: is Col's week in Review with Ryan cal Callahan. Here's Cal, 3 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: all right, welcome back to Cal's weekend Review. We got 4 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: another awesome, super informed interview podcast dropping right now with 5 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: me as always is Jordan Sillers, and our special guest 6 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 1: is Ben Jones of the Rough Grouse Society. Ben is 7 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: the relatively new CEO two and a half years about. 8 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: Is that correct, Ben? 9 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 2: No, it's actually been I'll hit seven years in June. 10 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 2: It doesn't mean no, it doesn't feel like that at 11 00:00:56,920 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 2: all to me. But it'll be seven years in June. 12 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's crazy, boy, that's a bumble on my part. 13 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: But for those of you who don't know, the Rough 14 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: Grouse Society has been around for a long time, I 15 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: would say, you know, it's very regionally known out here 16 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: in the West. RGS is probably less top of mind 17 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: than some other species specific orgs. Not that RGS is 18 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: species specific. I would say it's right in there with 19 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: the habitat organizations. But Ben, I'll quit talking. Who are you? 20 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: What do you do? And what does urgs do? 21 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 2: Yeah? You got it. I'm Ben Jones, I'm CEO. Of 22 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: the Rough Grouse Society and the American Woodcock Society, so RGS. 23 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 2: The Rough Groud Society was formed in nineteen sixty one, 24 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 2: so you're right, there's a sixty plus year tenure there 25 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: of OURGS. And it was formed in Monterey, Virginia, which 26 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 2: might not be a place that comes front of mind, 27 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 2: as you said, when people are thinking about rough grouse, 28 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 2: that it was started by some folks that were most 29 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 2: of them were grouse owners, but they were most interested 30 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 2: in learning more about forest conservation. Because if you think 31 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty one, there was still a lot going on. 32 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 2: I mean, we were starting to hit a pretty good 33 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 2: groove in wildlife science and wildlife as a profession, but 34 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 2: sixty years ago there was still a lot that we 35 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 2: didn't know about a lot of species and forest wildlife. 36 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 2: And they started the Rough Grouse Society, with rough grouse 37 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 2: is sort of their flagship ambassador species. But overall since 38 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 2: its formation, Rough Grouse Society has been about learning more 39 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 2: about forest wildlife conservation and applying the tenets of good 40 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: science to forest and wildlife management. And so those are 41 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 2: the things that we come back to day in and 42 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 2: day out. It's as true today as it ever was, 43 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: and it's a really appropriate ambassador. Rough grouse are really 44 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 2: dependent on healthy verse forests. They're non migratory, so they're 45 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 2: indicative of what's going on in that place where you 46 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 2: do or in some cases don't find them. And so 47 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 2: over the years we've really advocated strongly for science based 48 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 2: forest and wildlife management and we are a hunter based 49 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 2: conservation group, one of the habitat groups, as you say, 50 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 2: and it's really all about still learning what we can 51 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: about these birds. But in twenty twenty five, taking what 52 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 2: we've learned over the past sixty years of really good 53 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 2: wildlife science and applying it on the ground. We've got 54 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 2: sixty years worth of good research on rough grouse. Our 55 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 2: biggest challenge is today twenty five or how to get 56 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 2: that work done and specifically how to manage sustainably manage 57 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 2: our forests on the ground. So that's what we do, 58 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 2: and I'll mention quick In twenty fourteen, the American Woodcock 59 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 2: Society was added on under the same umbrella. Because when 60 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 2: you're hunting grouse and woodcock across most of the rough 61 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 2: grouse range, you're hunting grouse and woodcock. They're almost synonymous. 62 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: In a lot of those covers. But the really interesting 63 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: thing about woodcock is they also occur in geographies where 64 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: there aren't and weren't ever any rough grouse places like 65 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 2: the coastal plain in Piedmont of the Carolinas down into 66 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 2: the lower Mississippi Alluvial Valley, because they are migratory and 67 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: those are places where they winter. So having the American 68 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 2: Woodcock Society under our same umbrella and now we're doing 69 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 2: work and a lot of that wintering ground. But it's 70 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 2: the same idea of managing our forests, applying science to 71 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 2: a good wildlife conservation. 72 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot going on in forest management right 73 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: now that I want to get into, but you jog 74 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: my memory because this weekend I was out hunting turkeys 75 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: in a really cool spot. It's a chunk of US 76 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: Forest Service ground that's under a trial management program, so 77 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: it's it's being manicured in a in a different way. 78 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: And one of the spots that I typically set up 79 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: and call from in the early morning has a great 80 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: little rough grouse kind of drumming spot and I do 81 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: all my bird hunting with the yellow lab by my side, 82 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: and she took off into this brushy patch next to 83 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 1: this old tree stump, that this rough grouse would jump 84 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: up on a drum and said, oh, that that bird 85 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: must be just hanging in his normal spot like you 86 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: has been the last two years. And much to my surprise, 87 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: she comes out and to heel with a rough grouse 88 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: in her mouth. 89 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 2: Oh wow. 90 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I you know, it was shocked because I 91 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: didn't hear any commotion, but this thing had been dead 92 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: for a day or two and had the telltale decapitation 93 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 1: and a visceration of maybe a howl, an owl or 94 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: or Yeah. I don't think there'd be like prairie falcons 95 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: in that zone. But yeah, well. 96 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 2: We we sometimes the anyway collectively call a danger of 97 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 2: being on a drumming log or a drumming rock wherever 98 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 2: they're at as death from above. It was one of 99 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 2: those gritters. 100 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: That's exactly what it was. Yeah, I was. I was 101 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,799 Speaker 1: pretty bummed to see it. But you know, that's. 102 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 2: A that's a good point to bring up some of 103 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 2: the habitat require it's a rough grouse, so they're displaying 104 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 2: on these drumming logs. It's most often a log, but 105 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 2: it can be a platform or rock, and they're usually 106 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 2: and you mentioned that bird being there every year. You 107 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 2: might go to that spot for a decade and there 108 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: would be a bird occupying it. It's just like turkey roosts. 109 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 2: You know, that grouse isn't ten years old, but it's 110 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 2: a really good spot. So the next guy down the 111 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: line also finds it and makes use of it too. 112 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 2: But the really key thing and rough grouse habitat overall 113 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: is stem density, and that means a lot of small 114 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 2: stems that make really dense cover. And for anybody that's 115 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 2: ever hunted rough grouse us being the predator, they live 116 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 2: in some really tough places to shoot at them because 117 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 2: there will be tens of thousands of young saplings per 118 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 2: acre in those places, and when they're on the drumming log, 119 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 2: that's really what can protect them from predators, and specifically, 120 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: in this case, some kind of avian predator that had 121 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 2: an open shot at him him off that log. 122 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: So what's a great topic. What do rough grouse need? 123 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 2: Like? 124 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: What are the typically I guess a lot of times 125 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: we talked about things in three right, food water shelter 126 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: being the primary example. But what if you want either 127 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: to find rough grouse or if you're doing some property 128 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: management and want to make your property a good rough 129 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: grouse habitat zone. What what are you looking to do. 130 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: The name of the game and rough grouse only occur 131 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 2: where they're for us, and the key is for us diversity. 132 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 2: So all of those threes are found for rough grouse 133 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 2: and really diverse for us. So when I'm talking about 134 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 2: diversity of for us for rough grouse, it means age 135 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 2: diversity the age of that for us. So what we 136 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,719 Speaker 2: were just talking about with the cover requirements that they 137 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 2: need for a lot of the year that comes from 138 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 2: younger forest. We had a bumper sticker some years ago 139 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:11,839 Speaker 2: that said little trees need hugs too, So yeah, we 140 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 2: like to make sure that there's a lot of young forest, 141 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 2: middle aged forest, and old forest on the landscape. And 142 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 2: for example rough grouse where they're setting their drumming logs, 143 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 2: they need that really dense stem cover. Interestingly, female rough 144 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 2: grouse many times will open nests and much more open 145 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: older stands of timber, and when they're raising their broods 146 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 2: in the summer, they'll use patchy bits of cover. Think 147 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 2: about tree blowdowns that are adjacent to where those nesting 148 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 2: habitats were, So throughout the year in the life cycle 149 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 2: of a rough grouse, they need a lot of diversity 150 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 2: and that comes from age diversity, which comes from actively 151 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 2: managing the forest. Those young forests are created when we 152 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 2: harvest timber sustainably and let that new a new generation 153 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 2: and forests grow up. So age diversity is really the. 154 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: Cky and what type of densities are we looking at 155 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:15,359 Speaker 1: for rough grouse? Like, what's what's a healthy distribution? Obviously 156 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: you run into like family groups. It seems like family 157 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: groups like that that crew that hatch together is running 158 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: together in the in the early fall at least, is 159 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: that is that correct? 160 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 2: Or oh for sure? Yeah, so they'll be hanging out together. 161 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 2: It'll be the family groups or maybe a couple hens 162 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 2: with with their checks from that year. But come around 163 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: October first, into the first second week of October, those 164 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 2: broods will start breaking up. So here exactly right early fall, 165 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 2: you can get some of these almost like covees groups 166 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 2: of them, and most of the time that's kinfolk. That's 167 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 2: that's the mom and the chicks from the summer. Come 168 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 2: the first of October, and you may have heard about 169 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: this with some have called crazy flight, they start distributing 170 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 2: out from those family groups, and it's like this trigger 171 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 2: gets tripped in their brain, man, and they just got 172 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 2: to go. And they'll start doing straight line flights for miles. 173 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 2: And if you think about it from an ecological standpoint, 174 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 2: they're ready to redistribute their genetic material across the landscape. 175 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 2: So these grouse that have been with their mom and 176 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 2: with their siblings all summer, come the first of October 177 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 2: take off and this is when you'll see them flying 178 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 2: through camp windows, flying into cars. They could end up 179 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:40,559 Speaker 2: anywhere because they're just dispersing. Wow. 180 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 1: Wow. 181 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 2: But so at the same time, across the landscape, that 182 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 2: same area that's giving up some birds is receiving some birds. 183 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 2: So I did rough grouse research some years ago, and 184 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 2: it actually was in the southern apple Etian Mountains here 185 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 2: in the east, and we were putting right tags on 186 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 2: birds late August, September and October. And you might have 187 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 2: a bird on the air that you're tracking every day 188 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,199 Speaker 2: for weeks and then all of a sudden it's just gone. 189 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 2: But you start an influx of new birds coming in 190 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 2: if you have good habita. So, as I mentioned earlier, 191 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: it's kind of a reshuffling of genetics across the landscape 192 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 2: and that's how grouse have adapted. But to your point 193 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 2: about densities, there was some work done and through the 194 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 2: early eighties set late seventies, early eighties that showed with 195 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 2: optimal distribution of forest ages, which is what grouse need, 196 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 2: that you can have approximately one drumming male per ten 197 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 2: to twenty five acres and then for every male there's 198 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 2: also a female, so you can kind of get to 199 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 2: these density estimates. But that was in northern Minnesota, which 200 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 2: is the core of rough grouse range where the densities 201 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 2: get the highest. You would never have densities today of 202 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 2: rough grouse as high, and say western North Carolina eastern 203 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 2: Tennessee is what you can get in the upper Great 204 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 2: Lakes region and a lot of that. Rough grouse are 205 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 2: really closely associated in their highest density regions, their prime 206 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 2: spots with aspen. It provides ideal cover, it provides ideal food. 207 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 2: The grouse are in the male in the male aspen 208 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 2: trees during the winter, eating these little protein pills that 209 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 2: are the buds from the top of aspen trees. So 210 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 2: aspen is like a superplant for rough grouse, and their 211 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 2: highest densities occur where there's aspen. With that said, they 212 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 2: also occur in places where there aren't aspen, like down 213 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 2: through the Appalachian Range up into New England. 214 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I like, I don't really associate rough grouse 215 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: with aspen at all, just because we have rough gralise 216 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: and not a lot of aspen right here. 217 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 218 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:12,439 Speaker 1: They're a pretty like regional, regionally adaptive or adaptable bird. 219 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 2: They definitely are, and they can they can occur in 220 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: a variety of forest types, but their highest density will 221 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: be where there's aspen, places like Wisconsin, Minnesota, Michigan, parts 222 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 2: of parts of New England. But there are sustainable grouse 223 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 2: populations all the way down through the upstate of South 224 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 2: Carolina and to North Georgia in places where there isn't 225 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: any aspen at all. Cool, wherever you're at. They need 226 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 2: a lot of forest age diversity to do well. 227 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. We always hear early successional growth, right yeah. 228 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that can come. 229 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: From just early successional growth. 230 00:14:55,120 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 2: No, No, it's the mix of early successional growth with young, 231 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 2: middle and order. It's just like a multiple generations in 232 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 2: a community or a family. You've got to have that 233 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 2: young forest, the middle aged forest in the older forest, 234 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 2: and the better it's mixed together, the better it is 235 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 2: for rough growse. And this work that was done by 236 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 2: Gordon Gullian trying to give habitat managers a sense of 237 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: how to do this in northern Minnesota. He actually laid 238 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 2: out a checkerboard pattern, so if you think of a 239 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 2: way to maximize your diversity, he had this checkerboard idea 240 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 2: where recently cut harvested areas would be adjacent to areas 241 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 2: that hadn't been harvested for ten years, which would be 242 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 2: adjacent to areas that hadn't been harvested for twenty to 243 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 2: thirty years. So this checkerboard was a great way to 244 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 2: mix things together. 245 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: So currently we are seeing a lot of stuff happening 246 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: nationwide with ideas is around forest management and planning for 247 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: the future. We just on on Friday, I actually actually 248 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: stuck around town on Friday so we could interview Senator 249 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: Tim Sheehy, our freshman senator here in Montana, who's got 250 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: some you know, his forest background is is in wildland firefighting, 251 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: aerial fire fighting, and we have also, you know, recently 252 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: interviewed Scott fitz Williams from the White River National Forest 253 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: and we've been talking with all the Association of Foresters 254 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: and trying to beef up our knowledge on forestry here 255 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: in the US, primarily because of the Trump executive orders 256 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: that would oh prioritize American timber harvest would be a succinct, 257 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: succinct way to put it, and trying to understand you 258 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: know what that means for us on the ground, you know, 259 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: the really important folks that like to just go hunt. 260 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, it's something that's a good time to mention 261 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 2: too that if I have a landowner that comes to 262 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 2: me and wants a management plan on their forest for 263 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 2: rough grouse, and then landowner B wants a forest management 264 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 2: plan for whitetail deer, and the next landowner wants a 265 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 2: forest management plan to optimize bird watching, my forest management 266 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 2: plan for every one of those scenarios is going to 267 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 2: be almost identical. It's going to diversify the age of 268 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 2: the forest on that property using sustainable timber harvesting. At 269 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 2: the end of the day, whether it's white tail songbirds 270 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 2: or rough grouse, we want young forest, middle aged forest, 271 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 2: older forest, all mixed together on the landscape. Were right 272 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 2: in a management plan that's like the canvas. That's where 273 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 2: you get to be artistic how you mix it together. 274 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 2: But that diversity. If I've got a and I have 275 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 2: one here on our homestead where I'm out in south 276 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 2: central Pennsylvania, a property that I want to optimize for 277 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 2: whitetail hunting, which I do here, we need to have 278 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 2: those age glasses. In just two years ago, we did 279 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 2: a timber harvest here to try to get that mix 280 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 2: right on this landscape. So managing our forest timber production 281 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 2: is very important. And I've been in forest wildlife management 282 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 2: for over two decades, and our ability we're in ability 283 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 2: to manage the forest depends on products for markets for 284 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 2: those forest products. I wouldn't have been able to do 285 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 2: my timber sale and habitat work here on my property 286 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 2: or any of the properties that we manage in ourgs 287 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 2: if there wasn't a good market for that would And 288 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 2: so again, good force product markets determine whether we can 289 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 2: or cannot manage at scale. And a lot of the 290 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 2: rest of this conversation is the scale that we need 291 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 2: to manage at, whether it's wildfire mitigation, whether it's wildlife habitat, whatever. 292 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 2: We need to be able to manage a scale, and 293 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 2: we need to have good markets to move that wood 294 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 2: to be able to get the work done. I mean, 295 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 2: this is Gifford Pinchot's vision of conservation, right, protection through 296 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 2: use that are forests are part of the economic and 297 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 2: market driven exercise and for the good of our country. 298 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 2: It's to me in some ways turning back to that 299 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 2: core notion of the word conservation as was defined by 300 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 2: Gifford Pinchot. So with all that said, we like to 301 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 2: see things that are promoting force management and promoting good 302 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 2: force product markets because that enables us to do a 303 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 2: lot of this work. At the same time, we want 304 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 2: to make sure that we're keeping the science in there 305 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 2: and we're keeping the sustainability aspect as well, that we 306 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 2: don't just start doing for production for production's sake. There 307 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 2: are a lot of other things than our management planning 308 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 2: that we need to take into consideration to make sure 309 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 2: we're doing it well. 310 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's one of the big questions, right is 311 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: will the market provide for additional harvest, including the harvest 312 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 1: of you know, the other big buzzword that's been around 313 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: for a long time, reducing fuels, which isn't necessarily a 314 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: marketable product in the dimensional timber world. 315 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, And that's the case, then a lot of 316 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 2: habitat projects depending on the land base you're looking at. All, Right, 317 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 2: we need to do any of three or four actions, 318 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 2: whether it's fuel reduction or habitat diversification or whatever it is. 319 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 2: How do we get this wood out of here? And 320 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 2: so dimensional lumber is one way. But if we also 321 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 2: think about pulp and paper markets, if we think about biofuel, 322 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 2: then you start talking about ways that you can utilize 323 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 2: different sizes of trees and different types of wood so 324 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 2: that you have more markets available to utilize and to 325 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,199 Speaker 2: get that work done. And you bring up a good 326 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 2: point with the wildfire mitigation piece. A lot of that 327 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:32,679 Speaker 2: isn't going to make dimensional lumber for framing houses, but 328 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 2: can that as we often call it, lower grade, smaller 329 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 2: would be used for other things like wood insulation, jet fuel. 330 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 2: And this is the idea of expanding markets so we 331 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 2: can use that wood and remove it to get good 332 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 2: work done. 333 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 1: And then you know, the other big component here is 334 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: are we talking about changing our wildfire management ideas. We've 335 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: gone through a couple of different changes, right like in 336 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: the in the nineteen thirties, we were looking at more 337 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: wildfire suppression with the theory being the more fire we 338 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 1: can knock down, the more of that dimensional marketable timber 339 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: we can take off, we won't lose it to fire. 340 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: And then all the different fire labs that we have 341 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: across the country, folks who are studying the effects of 342 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,199 Speaker 1: fire on the landscape, I've only been to one, like 343 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: tall timbers down there and in Georgia. 344 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, man, might as well goes right to the top. 345 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 2: That's a good one. 346 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: Oh so cool, so so cool. But you know, just 347 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: just using like very plane to see historical fire on 348 00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 1: the landscape and they are able to grid off a 349 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:07,239 Speaker 1: big enough area do controlled burns on different timelines, so 350 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: you can see what the landscape looks like when it's 351 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: burned every year, every other year, every five years, every 352 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: fifteen years. You know, it's a luxury. Not a lot 353 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: of places have to be able to do something like that. 354 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: But you know, for a while we were talking about 355 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 1: like applying that type of knowledge on you know, larger 356 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: western landscapes where we haven't seen that level of controlled 357 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: burning prescribe fire for quite a while for a number 358 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: of factors, right like social tolerance, just just waiting for 359 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: the right conditions to come together to do larger prescribe burns, 360 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: all sorts of things. 361 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of things have to align. I love 362 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 2: that you brought up prescribe burning or controlled burning, because 363 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: it's not just the fire mitigation tool. If we look 364 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 2: at managing mixed hardwood forests, that disturbance of fire. That's 365 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 2: how we create different age glasses and diverse structure on 366 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 2: a landscape is through disturbance. And if we can do 367 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 2: that with fire, that's absolutely wonderful. And we know from 368 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 2: good science over the years that to be able to 369 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 2: maintain oak forests, which are incredibly important for all fourst wildlife, 370 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 2: we've got to have fire at some or several points 371 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 2: within the life of that forest stand to be able 372 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 2: to maintain oak. So as we're talking about doing timber harvest, 373 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 2: fire goes hand in hand with that because before we 374 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 2: do a final harvest and an oak stand, we're probably 375 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 2: going to have to do controlled burning at least once, 376 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 2: maybe twice to make sure that we've got good oak 377 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 2: seedlings to be able to do that next harvest. So 378 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,160 Speaker 2: beyond just fire mitigation and controlling fuels, as the fire 379 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 2: folks like to say, it's also a really important ecological 380 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 2: tool to let us create habitat diversity and healthy for 381 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: us and species like oak across landscapes. So skypfire is 382 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 2: really important. 383 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: Really interesting article just came out over the weekend from 384 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: the Mountain Journal that you know, this isn't set in 385 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: stone yet, nothing is been put into action, but there's 386 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: a fear right now that we could be going away 387 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: from prescribed fire without ever having to been able to 388 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: like really implement it, especially out here on the western landscapes, 389 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: right and going back to the Forest Service ten am policy, 390 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: which basically means once you spotify, it's got to be 391 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: contained by ten am the next day, which you know 392 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 1: some places sometimes might be attainable. But you know, the 393 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: reality is is if fire really picks up steam, especially 394 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 1: when we use the big C word catastrophic, it's a 395 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: change in weather conditions and fuel types that are going 396 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: to put that thing out, not the amount of man 397 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: power or resources that us humans throw at that thing. 398 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's a throwback to the suppression at 399 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,719 Speaker 2: all costs. You see a fire, put that put that 400 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 2: thing out, fire bad. It kind of takes the whole 401 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 2: nuanced part of this discussion and being able to harness 402 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 2: fire as a management tool out of it. When you're 403 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 2: when you're back to that ten AM strategy, it's there's 404 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 2: a fire, put that thing out. 405 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: And you know, there's obviously there's a lot of benefits 406 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: that you can get out of the mechanic goal way 407 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: to manage our forests, but there's a lot of benefits 408 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: that you can get out of the fireway to manage 409 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: our forests too. And it's not like they're mutually exclusive. 410 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,160 Speaker 1: You can do both. But you know, like the example 411 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,880 Speaker 1: that I think about, right is I have some great 412 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: old dark timber spots where I pick big, fist sized 413 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: moral mushrooms on old skinner trails where that forest disturbance 414 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 1: has been provided by mechanical means. Yeah, and you can 415 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: get get some great mushroom picking and they're big, media 416 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: awesome mushrooms. Yeah, But there's no way it's going to 417 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: amount to more mushroom picking than when that whole thing burns. Yeah. 418 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 1: When there's fire on the landscape, it blooms with mushrooms. 419 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. And that's the challenge doing all of this at 420 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 2: landscape scale, because you can have small, myopic projects and 421 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 2: some feel good stuff, but the scale of our forest 422 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 2: health challenges right now is huge. And if we look 423 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 2: at grouse and woodcock, start with rough grouse, so they're 424 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 2: listed as a species of greatest conservation need and at 425 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 2: this point nineteen state Wildlife Action plans. So this is 426 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 2: North America's most widely distributed game bird, rough grouse, and 427 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 2: they're listed as a species of concern in nineteen state 428 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 2: Wildlife Action Plans. That is because of lack of diversity, 429 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 2: lack of this kind of management disturbance in our forests. 430 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 2: So the scale that we've got to start acting right 431 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 2: now to reverse what is fifty seventy percent declines and 432 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 2: the species, we've got to work at a really large 433 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 2: scale and figure out how to get this done. And 434 00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 2: that's where we can embrace some of these market market supported, 435 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 2: market driven activities to be able to operate at scale, 436 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 2: because again, whether we can or can't do it, I 437 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 2: have found is fully determined by our the markets for 438 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 2: those products. Because I've seen some of these projects and 439 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 2: seen the price tags. You know you're paying one thousand, 440 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 2: fifteen hundred three thousand dollars per acre just to remove 441 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 2: this material with no market for it. You can't get 442 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 2: a whole lot of acres done with the price tag 443 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 2: like that versus even if somebody is paying you a 444 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 2: dollar a ton and you can get that material removed 445 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 2: and it can be utilized, but it's not costing you 446 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 2: three thousand dollars per acre. That's where the solutions are 447 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 2: to be able to operate at scale, and we absolutely 448 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 2: need to operate at scale. There's a new document that 449 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 2: just came out by all the best and brightest of 450 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 2: the upland bird biologists east of the Mississippi River, the 451 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 2: Rough Grouse Working Group that says that very thing, that 452 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 2: this is a species that locally will be extirpated. So 453 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 2: our most widelyttributed game bird, the King of game Bird 454 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 2: says it has been called is under threat of being 455 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 2: locally extinct in some areas if we don't act at scale. 456 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 2: So we definitely have to think big. And so as 457 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: I see secretari of memos coming out of USDA and 458 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 2: so forth thinking at a bigger scale, then we're going 459 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 2: to see if we can use that to get some 460 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 2: work done. 461 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, you got to find the opportunities 462 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: with every administration, right and you know, I think my 463 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: concerns in whether we're not the free market is actually 464 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: going to respond to this, right, Are we going to see, 465 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: you know, some level of pulp mills near the source 466 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: pop up? Are we going to see, you know, those 467 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: necessary facts in the market step up to allow this 468 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: to happen. 469 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the hard part, isn't it. I heard a 470 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 2: figure recently that actually shocked me, and I pay attention 471 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 2: to this kind of stuff. It's like a couple hundred 472 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 2: million dollars to build a new processing facility like that. 473 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 2: So you're right, you've got to have some assurances. You've 474 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 2: got to know how much wood is there with anything. 475 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 2: When you're trying to spur on to start up a 476 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 2: market where there isn't one, investors need to have some 477 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 2: some sort of assurances that you're going to be able 478 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 2: to recover that investment. And also to say, this thing 479 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 2: is also about our local communities too. I live in 480 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 2: a rural community where I'm at right now, many of 481 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 2: our members do, and when we're thinking about jobs in 482 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 2: those local communities, economic development is very much needed where 483 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 2: I live. But our people here, me included, don't want 484 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 2: to lose the rural nature of where we live. So 485 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 2: we don't want that economic development to come from big 486 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 2: box stores. So are there scenarios. Meanwhile, we've got lots 487 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 2: of public lands, lots of available for us, for us 488 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 2: habitat work that needs to be done, would on the 489 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 2: landscape that could be utilized. Do those things come together 490 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 2: to help support rural economies with green jobs? And that 491 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 2: to me is a really exciting part of it. Because 492 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 2: I'm going to DC in a couple weeks. Not many 493 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 2: people there are going to care about rough grouse. But 494 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 2: we can talk about jobs, we can talk about sustainability, 495 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 2: we can talk about green restoration economies, whatever it is, 496 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 2: and those are the things that we can get policy 497 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 2: makers and investors to really care about because you know, 498 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 2: unless you're an upland bird hunter, rough grouse probably aren't 499 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 2: going to really peak your interest. We've got to talk 500 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 2: about the biggest picture. 501 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: The bigger picture, Oh yeah, like you kind of turn 502 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: your bird for bird into the side benefit of of 503 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: what's what could happen? Right? And we need enough stability 504 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: out there in the marketplace that because so much of 505 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: this is done mechanically. Now it's not putting a bunch 506 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: of people to work, you know, clear and undergrowth. But 507 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: you know, like that family if they're going to invest 508 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: in in a new you know, skidter or whatever. You know, 509 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: it's a half million dollar piece of equipment before you 510 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: get it out the door. 511 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:42,200 Speaker 2: Right, So yeah, no doubt. And if there's one thing 512 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 2: that I would want listeners to take from this part 513 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 2: of the conversation is to just go back and read 514 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 2: about what Gifford Pinchot and Teddy roseveout we're doing. When 515 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 2: Pinchow coined the phrase, it was his word conservation and 516 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 2: what it means, and it was trying to these kinds 517 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,479 Speaker 2: of things out. If you think about it, around a 518 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 2: couple decades give or take of nineteen hundred, I mean, 519 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 2: there were timber barns, there were no protected lands, there 520 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 2: was no forest science, it was none of this stuff, 521 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 2: and they were trying to figure out ways to protect 522 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 2: our forests. And the key with Pinchot and Roosevelt was 523 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,959 Speaker 2: this idea of conservation is protection through use. We've got 524 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 2: to show the utility and the use of these forests 525 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 2: to be able to protect them. So every time this 526 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,080 Speaker 2: is kind of pet peeve for me, a maybe challenge 527 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 2: listeners to think about it and look, when you see 528 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 2: a headline that says conservation groups sue Forest Service over 529 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 2: logging project. Conservation is protection through use? Are those really 530 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 2: conservation groups like the Rough Grouse Society that are suing 531 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 2: the Forest Service over logging project. They're not. They're preservationist groups. 532 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 2: So I get a little hot under the callar when 533 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 2: our word conservation is hijacked for something that it was 534 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 2: never intended these for us per conservation by definition will 535 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 2: be protected through us. 536 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,759 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean that's a great point, right, Like 537 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: to a lot of us, conservation means work and the 538 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: co opting of that term to mean hands off it 539 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: is pretty frustrating. 540 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,760 Speaker 2: Right. Sorry, man, that's my rant. That's my last rant 541 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 2: for the podcast. But I think it's a word for 542 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 2: us to rant about. 543 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it is, it is for sure. Yeah. 544 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,920 Speaker 1: You know what we were talking over the weekend and 545 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:49,040 Speaker 1: somebody brought up the the Big Burn. Sure you've read 546 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 1: that one, but you know there's a couple of it 547 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 1: outlines that that point in our history really well. Right, Like, 548 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:03,760 Speaker 1: so Theodore Rose, Gifford Pinchot got together to protect forest 549 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:10,479 Speaker 1: land through executive order and it was you know, this 550 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 1: this idea of government regulation was there to try to 551 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: balance all these public interests and make that timber harvest 552 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 1: sustainable for resource management was was the idea. 553 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah? Yeah, and from that was born in a 554 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 2: profession of forest right too at the same time. 555 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, so yeah, I'll be honest, I have no 556 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: idea that the rough grouse, which you know, certain seasons 557 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: when things really come together well in western Montana, you 558 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 1: could provide like a chicken dinner to the entire state 559 00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: off a rough grouse. Sometimes, no idea that it's a 560 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: species of concern in nineteen States. 561 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's hunter conservationists. It's really important to 562 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 2: highlight that we recently did a survey of our membership. 563 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,359 Speaker 2: Are you a hunter, are you a conservationist? Or are 564 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 2: you both? And the vast majority of our members identify 565 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 2: as hunter conservationists. I think it's really important to know, 566 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,240 Speaker 2: and you know that there's a lot out there about 567 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 2: stage grouse and especially the prairie grouse and their status. 568 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 2: It's really important for all of us to know, even 569 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 2: if you don't hunt rough grouse, that the most widely 570 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 2: distributed game bird in North America is becoming a pretty 571 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 2: highly threatened species. And so whether you hunt them or not, 572 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 2: as hunter conservationists, I think this is something that everyone 573 00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,879 Speaker 2: should know. And it's something that we can fix too 574 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 2: by managing our forests using good science, using market supportive methods. 575 00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 2: It can also support rural economies. This is one of 576 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,720 Speaker 2: those things to me that is if we can't solve 577 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 2: this issue, then which ones can we solve? Because there 578 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 2: are too many things pointing in the right direction of 579 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 2: being able to fix this and we've just got to 580 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 2: manage our for us. 581 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I cannot agree more. You know, driving 582 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: I was in western Montana this weekend out looking for turkeys, 583 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:27,800 Speaker 1: and it's it's crazy to me how fast people build 584 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: homes once a fire rolls through in in spots that 585 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: will once again be a really bad spot to have. 586 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,439 Speaker 2: A home, right right. This isn't a once and done 587 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:41,720 Speaker 2: kind of thing with fire. 588 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it really complicates that idea of management. And 589 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: and you know, that preservationist mindset that we all have 590 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: when it comes to our life is in our property breeds, 591 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 1: a preservation mindset around those areas as well. It's like 592 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: we don't want the smoke, we don't want fire on 593 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,759 Speaker 1: that particular landscape, yeah, but at the same time, we 594 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: do want the rest of that forage forest managed well. 595 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well I've from a hunter's perspective. I've heard 596 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 2: you say it before, how much you know you're just 597 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 2: you're liking your chops when you're thinking about going into 598 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 2: a recently burned area, just because of the difference in 599 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 2: hunting opportunity there. And you mentioned that you're head to 600 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:44,320 Speaker 2: West Virginia shortly to do some hunting, certainly in places 601 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 2: in the eastern deciduous forest. The first thing I'm looking for, 602 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 2: and I'm pulling up on X. I mean, at this point, 603 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,720 Speaker 2: what an amazing tool to be able to find areas 604 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 2: that are being actively managed. So one of our most 605 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 2: important layers everywhere that I go hunting as the states 606 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 2: that have the ability to pull up that forest management 607 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 2: layer and where's active management occurring. If I'm going on 608 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,440 Speaker 2: a trip hunting white tails somewhere, that's the first thing 609 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 2: I'm looking for. The last place I'll go as a 610 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 2: chunk of public ground that hasn't been managed and it 611 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 2: all has one hundred and twenty five year old hardwood 612 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 2: stands with no diversity, that's the last place I'm going. 613 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 2: I'm going to find the place that has some younger cuts, 614 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 2: some access places like you were talking about from old 615 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,319 Speaker 2: retired skit trails or hall roads. That's where I'm going 616 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 2: to go looking for white tails or black bears or 617 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:38,720 Speaker 2: certainly rough drowse. 618 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:44,240 Speaker 1: We did a really phenomenal trip into the Boundary Waters 619 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 1: real short couple of years ago in October, and we 620 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:53,320 Speaker 1: you know, did the whole Boundary Waters thing. We packed 621 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,880 Speaker 1: up canoes and jumped between a bunch of different lakes 622 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,799 Speaker 1: in this little chain and crawled around through just like 623 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: the thickest, nastiest blowdown to scratch out I think two 624 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:20,320 Speaker 1: ruffed grouse. And then for a day when we got out, 625 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:28,320 Speaker 1: we looked at where they were doing cuts on the 626 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: edge of the Boundary Waters and we shot a lot 627 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:36,319 Speaker 1: of rough grouse off you know, off the road right 628 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: so or you know, hunting off the road, yeah, because 629 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,800 Speaker 1: you know, it's like we were in a spot where, 630 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 1: you know, quite honestly, like I would have had somebody, 631 00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 1: I would have had a canoe full of fuz road 632 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,719 Speaker 1: flares and somebody paddling me and we would have just 633 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:58,879 Speaker 1: cruised the shoreline and it would have been thrown those 634 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:03,560 Speaker 1: suckers out about everything the art because that's what it needed. 635 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, that disturbance is necessary. And you get these in 636 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 2: the boundary waters. It's interesting when you're talking about the 637 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,279 Speaker 2: put every fire out places like the boundary waters that 638 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 2: are big enough, that are areas like that where you 639 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,439 Speaker 2: can let some natural fires burn where the boundary water 640 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:23,279 Speaker 2: is in that case where you have no choice but 641 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 2: to let some of those fires burn because it's so 642 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,319 Speaker 2: difficult to get in there. Yeah, then now you can 643 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 2: have that natural driven diversity occurring in those places. But 644 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,880 Speaker 2: this the preservationist idea that you can just let nature 645 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,840 Speaker 2: take its course and everything will be fine. The science 646 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,359 Speaker 2: is telling us just doesn't work out because, as I 647 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 2: often say, the last I checked, this is definitely a 648 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 2: human dominated planet, and so we don't have herds of 649 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:57,240 Speaker 2: bison roaming and fires that can burn across three states. 650 00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 2: I mean, all these natural processes, you know, one unquote 651 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 2: let nature take its course, It's just it's not even reality. 652 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,279 Speaker 2: So to have that diversity and to be able to 653 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 2: maintain the species. If I'm a bird watcher and I'm 654 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,319 Speaker 2: looking to check off the most species possible on a 655 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,279 Speaker 2: trip on my bucket list, I'm going to go to 656 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,759 Speaker 2: places that have the most diversity of forests, not just 657 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 2: a single older age class of forests. 658 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, everything changes except for us. 659 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 2: Man, I'm not changing a bit. I'm getting younger. It's 660 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 2: all good. Yeah, man, you're making me think how long 661 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,520 Speaker 2: i've been at OURGS now earlier on, I'm like, oh man, 662 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 2: it has been seven years. How about that? But it's been. 663 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,879 Speaker 1: A well yeah, you're kind of like a farmer, right, 664 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 1: you get you know, new new seasons bring on new challenges. 665 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,239 Speaker 2: That's absolutely true. And there are so many parts of 666 00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:00,040 Speaker 2: this year with all the executive orders and trying to 667 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 2: get a handle on where things are going, and of 668 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,160 Speaker 2: course a lot of uncertainty and rapid changes. It was 669 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,839 Speaker 2: really reminiscent of twenty twenty another time when we had 670 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,759 Speaker 2: a lot of changes going on, and we took that 671 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 2: opportunity in twenty twenty a are just to change our 672 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:19,520 Speaker 2: business model because when you have disruption, there's really no 673 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,080 Speaker 2: better time if you need to disrupt things to just 674 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 2: do it all at once. So we found opportunities out 675 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,719 Speaker 2: of that, and we're engaged with the Forest Service more 676 00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,960 Speaker 2: than we've ever been. And now if we're just thinking 677 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:37,320 Speaker 2: of the Forest Service and those tens of millions of acres, 678 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,319 Speaker 2: there can be opportunity with all that's going on right 679 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 2: now to help our partners at the Forest Service in 680 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,720 Speaker 2: the midst of staff reductions and so forth. I listened 681 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:48,960 Speaker 2: to the interview that you did with Terry Baker talking 682 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:53,560 Speaker 2: about NGOs and other partners being able to actively engage 683 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,880 Speaker 2: in management on national forests, and that's the business model 684 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 2: we changed in twenty twenty. So right now we've got 685 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,680 Speaker 2: dozens of projects where we're helping the Forest Service get 686 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:09,280 Speaker 2: good work done, whether it's prescribed fire, timber harvest both. 687 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,600 Speaker 2: At the same time, we can help the Forest Service 688 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:16,000 Speaker 2: build capacity. So now coming into twenty twenty five, it's 689 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,760 Speaker 2: really apparent with the reduction in force and the reorganization 690 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,759 Speaker 2: of the Forest Service that our ability to help them 691 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:27,880 Speaker 2: get good work done both for habitat management and access. 692 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,759 Speaker 2: Our role is going to be more important than ever 693 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 2: in helping our Forest Service partners, which in turn is 694 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,520 Speaker 2: a national forests are a really important land based for 695 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 2: so many of us that love to hunt. So we 696 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:42,400 Speaker 2: want to be an active part of the solution and 697 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,479 Speaker 2: not part of the problem here. So we're figuring out 698 00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 2: ways to scale up and our business not model is 699 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,279 Speaker 2: scalable and ways that we can increase our services to 700 00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 2: the for service, and. 701 00:45:55,840 --> 00:46:00,600 Speaker 1: That service is going to be what bend like helping 702 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:06,720 Speaker 1: out with that management plan or on the actual subcontractor 703 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:08,320 Speaker 1: or contractor side of things. 704 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, when you're working with the Forest Service, it's all above, 705 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,719 Speaker 2: all the above. So we work on stakeholder committees that 706 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,120 Speaker 2: are part of the public input process if you're thinking 707 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:22,240 Speaker 2: about that level of management planning. And then we also 708 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:24,920 Speaker 2: can get the next step into the weeds with the 709 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:29,000 Speaker 2: Forest Service on helping them lay out actual management plans 710 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,640 Speaker 2: and doing it on large scales like developing twenty thirty 711 00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:39,239 Speaker 2: fifty thousand acre management plans. And then through stewardship authority, 712 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:44,279 Speaker 2: we can actually help the Forest Service layout and administer 713 00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,160 Speaker 2: timber harvest within those plans as well. And the really 714 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:52,680 Speaker 2: neat thing about shared stewardship and stewardship authority is that 715 00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,440 Speaker 2: when we help the Forest Service layout and conduct that 716 00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 2: timber sale, any commercial value from the timber sold stays 717 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:07,000 Speaker 2: right there on that district, that ranger district, and then 718 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,359 Speaker 2: we can reinvest those funds from the commercial timber sale 719 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,600 Speaker 2: into additional habitat work. That could be trail maintenance, that 720 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,719 Speaker 2: could be new hunter walking trails, it could be some 721 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,840 Speaker 2: of these projects like we were talking about earlier, that 722 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,799 Speaker 2: don't have a market, that don't pay for themselves, we 723 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,360 Speaker 2: can take as a stewardship partner the commercial value of 724 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,080 Speaker 2: that timber and get all this value add work done. 725 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,319 Speaker 2: So that's the model that we were really looking at 726 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,319 Speaker 2: how to scale up as the Ford Service is going 727 00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:38,319 Speaker 2: to need more help in the coming years. 728 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:43,960 Speaker 1: Well, Ben, what's the best way to figure out what 729 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:46,920 Speaker 1: the Rough Grouse Society and the American Woodcock Society you're 730 00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,160 Speaker 1: up to? And where can folks find you? 731 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, check us out on social media? Of course Instagram 732 00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:58,560 Speaker 2: would keep things pretty active there. Our website, We've got 733 00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,879 Speaker 2: a good archive and current articles coming out every few 734 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:06,399 Speaker 2: days on the blog spot on our website, So check 735 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,480 Speaker 2: us out there. And as you're there, popping up all 736 00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:11,920 Speaker 2: over the place as it should be, are these little 737 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,400 Speaker 2: join icons, So click on one of those and join, 738 00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,359 Speaker 2: and then you'll get our magazine four times a year. 739 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,880 Speaker 2: You can also subscribe to our monthly we call it 740 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:26,319 Speaker 2: the bell Weather Bulletin. We described the rough Grouse as 741 00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,680 Speaker 2: a bell Weather afore South, So the bell Weather Bulletin 742 00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,520 Speaker 2: comes out every month and you can subscribe to that. 743 00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,520 Speaker 2: Have it delivered great to your email. But come join us. 744 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,040 Speaker 2: We need members. We need a strong membership base to 745 00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:39,759 Speaker 2: do all this work. We'd love to have you. 746 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 1: And we really didn't even get into talking about woodcock, 747 00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,120 Speaker 1: but I'll tell you it's one of the coolest birds 748 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:51,400 Speaker 1: out there for so many reasons. You know, it's relative, 749 00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:57,320 Speaker 1: I would say firmly any unknown class here in western Montana. 750 00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:00,200 Speaker 1: But we'll have to get you back on to to 751 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:06,080 Speaker 1: talk about that super enigmatic little dude here in the future. 752 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,560 Speaker 2: Man that's worthy of its own episode. And we talked 753 00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,160 Speaker 2: about sixty years worth awhile life research and knowing a 754 00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,279 Speaker 2: lot of things about white tails and rough growse. There 755 00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,080 Speaker 2: are things that we're only just now learning about woodcock 756 00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:20,839 Speaker 2: with our ability to put GPS transmitters on them while 757 00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:26,279 Speaker 2: they migrate. So yeah, enigmatic, quirky, strange little bird. So 758 00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,799 Speaker 2: let's get together sometime in the future and talk about them. 759 00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:33,040 Speaker 1: That sounds great, folks. I know you're gonna have a 760 00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,440 Speaker 1: lot of questions for Ben and the Rough Grouse Society 761 00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:41,640 Speaker 1: American Woodcock Society. Please go follow up, give them a subscribe. 762 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:46,480 Speaker 1: You can certainly sign up for their email newsletters communications 763 00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,440 Speaker 1: and just know what they're up to, and then if 764 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:51,640 Speaker 1: you're liking what you're seeing, if it clicks with you, 765 00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:55,960 Speaker 1: become a member. Super easy to do, and it's really 766 00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,080 Speaker 1: important to help them carry on their work. If you 767 00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,719 Speaker 1: have questions, you can always send them to A s 768 00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:05,399 Speaker 1: K C. A L. That's Ascal at the meeteater dot 769 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:07,480 Speaker 1: com and we can get Ben back on here to 770 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,280 Speaker 1: answer him, or we can connect with him and address 771 00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,200 Speaker 1: him on the Cow's We Can Review podcast. That's all 772 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,759 Speaker 1: we got for you this week. Thank you so much 773 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,080 Speaker 1: for listening, and Ben, thank you so much for coming on. 774 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,480 Speaker 2: It was an absolute pleasure. I would really look forward 775 00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:25,600 Speaker 2: to the follow up Q and A. That would be 776 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:25,839 Speaker 2: fun