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Speaker 1: welcome to you stuff you should know from House stuff
Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Speaker 1: Josh Clark. It's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. Cherry's in the house.
Speaker 1: We're back to basics. Yeah, we're doing a social sciences episode. Man,
Speaker 1: I mean we're all right, man, we get to tear
Speaker 1: it apart. You you believe in body language? Sure, watch this.
Speaker 1: You're winking and shouldering and nodding your head and you're
Speaker 1: loosening up and you're doing some weird biting thing. What
Speaker 1: did I say? You said, I'm feeling silly. It's exactly
Speaker 1: what it is. How about that? Yeah? It said I've
Speaker 1: had a diet mountain dew and I'm pepped up. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's what I was saying. Now I'm crashing and he's down.
Speaker 1: Are you doing good? Yeah? I'm hanging on by a thread.
Speaker 1: Are you sure we can make it through this? Man?
Speaker 1: You you can do this in your sleep? Okay, don't
Speaker 1: go to sleep. Okay, it would be so boring. You
Speaker 1: could theoretically do this in your sleep. Yeah, okay, I
Speaker 1: got you. Yeah, um, so body language it is a thing.
Speaker 1: When I was researching, I was like, this is junk science.
Speaker 1: There's no way this is real. And I could not
Speaker 1: find anything that just said like, yes, body language is
Speaker 1: obviously junk science. Apparently it's very well established and well reputed.
Speaker 1: I mean I understand, like, like, yes, there is such
Speaker 1: thing as body language included in the evolution. It's basically
Speaker 1: evidence of evolution from an animalian ancestor. But the idea
Speaker 1: that like you can read somebody, especially like that facial
Speaker 1: coding system, it just struck me as really like junkie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well we did Um I could have sworn we had
Speaker 1: done this one when I did. Yeah, we did that,
Speaker 1: and I think two thousand nine, and I don't remember
Speaker 1: how I weighed in on it back then. So I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna start a new and maybe it may be
Speaker 1: a different take. I have no idea. People grow and
Speaker 1: change their opinions evolve, you know. Well here's what I think.
Speaker 1: Of course, body language is real and it can tell
Speaker 1: you a lot. I can tell you a lot, but
Speaker 1: it can also miss you can be misdirected very easily.
Speaker 1: And uh, I mean we'll get to it. But I
Speaker 1: found some stuff from a former FBI guy. Even uh,
Speaker 1: it doesn't say it's junk science, but he's like, you
Speaker 1: can fool somebody to if you're a sociopath. You know
Speaker 1: this about body language of expressions. Apparently it's a myth that,
Speaker 1: uh that's how I get by. Apparently it's a myth
Speaker 1: that uh ikon or not having eye contact means deception. Um,
Speaker 1: while it can. His whole point is they've done studies
Speaker 1: over the years and habitual liars, h and anti socials
Speaker 1: in psychopaths have the most eye contact probably because there's
Speaker 1: that myth exactly. So it's like a self fulfilling myth. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy was probably like, I gotta make great contact
Speaker 1: with everyone into otherwise the jig will be up and
Speaker 1: I won't get to kill people any longer, my favorite thing.
Speaker 1: And then so, yeah, there's a lot of myth. There's that.
Speaker 1: There's that one myth also where like you look up
Speaker 1: into the right or up into the left of your
Speaker 1: lying or recalling Yeah, I can't remember, we don't. We
Speaker 1: debunked that and something here they're a while back. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I think body language is fun to talk
Speaker 1: about and study, but when you're convicting someone and as
Speaker 1: a jury based on micro expression. Yes, there's where the
Speaker 1: junk science comes in from me, it gets a little dangerous,
Speaker 1: and not just with body language. Who we need to
Speaker 1: do a whole episode on forensics in general and just
Speaker 1: how junkie the science that most of it is based on.
Speaker 1: It's basically the only thing that's that's less standing is
Speaker 1: d n A and even that can be wildly misinterpreted.
Speaker 1: And we're using this to like execute people, and there's
Speaker 1: a big problem with it. So I think we've arrived
Speaker 1: at my problem with it. It's junk science when you
Speaker 1: apply it for like law enforcement. Yeah as fact, Yeah, agreed, Okay,
Speaker 1: So can we be done. This is the other thing
Speaker 1: that got me to um Albert uh Mehrabian. I totally
Speaker 1: nailed that guy's name. I bet the h is silent
Speaker 1: Arabian Arabian. I bet it's just Arabian, not Arabian anyway.
Speaker 1: Uh Dr Arabian back in said that in the first
Speaker 1: four minutes of meeting someone, our facial expressions account for
Speaker 1: the impression we make. Seven percent of that impression comes
Speaker 1: from our actual words, while the remainder of the information
Speaker 1: from a tone of voice. Yeah, he does think is
Speaker 1: what made me think like, no, this is all Yes, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because it sounds who can who can say that? You can't?
Speaker 1: Maybe one you could get away with that crap not
Speaker 1: in two tho you lived in the past. Uh. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Morabian was he's He was probably one of the first
Speaker 1: researchers to study this in the nineteen forties out of U. C.
Speaker 1: L A and UM. I agree, you can't just break
Speaker 1: down percentages. I think what he really means to say,
Speaker 1: if I may speak for him, is facial expressions in
Speaker 1: tone of voice account for a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of what you're getting out of a person. And I
Speaker 1: don't think anyone would disagree with that. And the words
Speaker 1: account maybe for even less than those two things combined.
Speaker 1: I think people would agree with that too. I think
Speaker 1: it's when you quantify it seven. He just said that
Speaker 1: just because it sounds authoritative. Yeah, because he like he
Speaker 1: fed it into the percentage three maker three thousand and
Speaker 1: and it spit it out. Uh. But that is not
Speaker 1: to miss the point that communicating UM inadvertently is something
Speaker 1: that we all do through body lane. Sure. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a there's a great quote I ran across on a
Speaker 1: psychology today post um it was. The quote comes from
Speaker 1: a sixteenth century Scottish mathematician named John Napier, and he said,
Speaker 1: if language was given to men to conceal there, oh
Speaker 1: you found it too. Hunh. It's about as good a
Speaker 1: quote of body language as you can come up with.
Speaker 1: You do it, chuck now you you already do better.
Speaker 1: Sixteenth century Scottish do Sean Connery reading this, man, if
Speaker 1: language was given to men and shield their faults, then
Speaker 1: gestures pish was to disclose them. That's perfect, it's not bad.
Speaker 1: That was dead on John Napier. It's not as good
Speaker 1: as my crystal fault. So Napier makes a pretty good point, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you can. Language has all sorts of str sure and
Speaker 1: can be mastered body languages. Much of it is is
Speaker 1: just inadvertent and we don't even realize necessarily when you're
Speaker 1: picking up on it. You just get this weird gut
Speaker 1: feeling that uh no, I don't trust this car salesman,
Speaker 1: or I want to give this car salesman all my
Speaker 1: money depending on the body language. Yeah, and um, it's
Speaker 1: pretty clear that this started a long time ago, like
Speaker 1: it predates language because who wrote this By the way,
Speaker 1: this is a Patrick Kaiger joint. Oh kaigeru Kaiger says
Speaker 1: um rightfully that it took took's age. You didn't have
Speaker 1: a lot of time to suss things out, like up
Speaker 1: close and personal. You know, once you got close enough
Speaker 1: within striking distance, you can be stricken. Yeah, you might
Speaker 1: already have that club upside your head or that rock
Speaker 1: in your face. Yeah, so you needed to judge someone's
Speaker 1: body language as they approach you to survive. Yes, you
Speaker 1: know so, so body language makes sense. And you would
Speaker 1: also presuppose that since we are descended from animals and
Speaker 1: animals clearly do engage in body language. Um, that body
Speaker 1: language would be older than language, although this this article
Speaker 1: says that language didn't exist until about a hundred thousand
Speaker 1: years ago, so it's under dispute. Possibly as much as
Speaker 1: a million years ago, people were using some sort of
Speaker 1: verbal communication. Yeah, and Neanderthals apparently also head language. Probably interesting,
Speaker 1: It is pretty interesting. I'd like to do one on
Speaker 1: um animal communication, have we not? I think we touched
Speaker 1: on it here and there, But I know there's a
Speaker 1: lot of things like cats purring and tails wagging on
Speaker 1: dogs that are misinterpreted. Um. Or like a wolf growling.
Speaker 1: I think that means compet me. You know, it's often
Speaker 1: misinterpreted as a warning, Come take this stink out of
Speaker 1: my mouth if you dare. Uh should we take a break?
Speaker 1: All right, let's take a quick one, and we're gonna
Speaker 1: get back and explain a little bit more about what
Speaker 1: one researcher calls thin slices of experience. So Josha said
Speaker 1: something about thin slices of experience, And I'm not talking
Speaker 1: about the uh the roast beef line at the buffet,
Speaker 1: which is great, thin slices. The carving station? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: Have you ever worked at carving station? Have I ever
Speaker 1: worked one? Yeah? I've hung around one long enough that
Speaker 1: I basically should have been paid, But I was just eating.
Speaker 1: What do you wait for the next uh roast to
Speaker 1: come out so you can get the incut? I know,
Speaker 1: I've never been into and cuts, whether it be a
Speaker 1: loaf of bread or cut of meat. Oh really like
Speaker 1: a prime rib in cut? Yeah? No, daddy, that's good.
Speaker 1: Isn't it all salt? Maybe that's why I love it?
Speaker 1: You like the salt? Yeah? Yeah. To me, it's like
Speaker 1: the closer you get to the middle, the juicy here it, yeah,
Speaker 1: and a little a little rarer in the middle obviously. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I think that's my problem with the end of anything.
Speaker 1: It's undercooked. You know about White people don't like to
Speaker 1: eat the crust because it's called crust, And that might
Speaker 1: be part of it. If like a hundred years ago
Speaker 1: they named it like the butterfly Yeah, the butterfly slice,
Speaker 1: people would have been like fighting for it, like the
Speaker 1: butterfly slice is delicious. Yeah. Have you ever heard George
Speaker 1: Carlin's little take on that end slice that everybody always
Speaker 1: goes past. They're like, I'm not gonna eat that. That's
Speaker 1: the poison piece of bread. I'll leave that for my
Speaker 1: family to eat. Wait, I guess the NPS didn't called
Speaker 1: the crust, so is it. The crust is what's around.
Speaker 1: But it's all crust. That's the problem with you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, it's nothing but crust. Yeah, not butt crust,
Speaker 1: it's nothing but crust. I think the other weird man,
Speaker 1: this is a jerus, This is a strange tangent um.
Speaker 1: I think the other problem with the bread end pieces
Speaker 1: is that eating one end piece with a regular slice
Speaker 1: is a little weird, but getting that other slice off
Speaker 1: the tail end is not very feasible or efficient to
Speaker 1: make two crust pieces. No, but that frequently is the
Speaker 1: last sandwich that's made out of the loaf because that
Speaker 1: one end piece has been hanging around. And then I
Speaker 1: finally mate, yeah, and then you stick some turkey in
Speaker 1: it and weep quietly while you eat your terrible sandwich. Man,
Speaker 1: thin slices. Where were we experience? Yes, this is a
Speaker 1: professor of psychology name uh Nalini Embody and Batty from
Speaker 1: Toughs University. Shout out to my buddy Robert Shahade from
Speaker 1: high school. He works at tough Speaking of you know,
Speaker 1: there's a kid with like a really huge hit single
Speaker 1: out right now from your high school. Really, I think
Speaker 1: your high school is shown in the music video. It's
Speaker 1: um watching Me whip watch Men. It's reed in weird silento.
Speaker 1: So I'm no longer the most famous person from high school.
Speaker 1: You were until about it six months ago, and I
Speaker 1: will be again in another six months. Maybe it's a
Speaker 1: pretty pretty catchy single. It's a hot, hot, hot track. Now.
Speaker 1: We actually we had several professional athletes that are much
Speaker 1: more popular than me. We had a professional punter actually
Speaker 1: maybe before Yeah, we haven't. We've had a few. There's
Speaker 1: a baseball player, uh in, a puncher. Travis Tritt went
Speaker 1: to my high school. Shut up really, see that's a
Speaker 1: big nimee, Travis. Yeah, I don't have any like superstars.
Speaker 1: Luke Brian went to UMIs High School. Man, you guys,
Speaker 1: where'd you go Beverly Hills to uh? Oh boy, here
Speaker 1: we go again. Thin slices from tough University. Well, let's
Speaker 1: let's talk about the thin slices thing, man, um the
Speaker 1: you said earlier that it would be very advantageous evolutionarily speaking,
Speaker 1: to be able to read maybe the rough intentions of
Speaker 1: some other hunter gatherer a hundred thousand years ago, read
Speaker 1: the room like from a distance before they could hit
Speaker 1: you with a rock, right, if that was their intent. Well,
Speaker 1: just as much you want to be able to like
Speaker 1: walk through the world and be threatened by stuff and
Speaker 1: to make snap judgments about it based on things like
Speaker 1: body language. Same thing, and this this is what the
Speaker 1: thin slices has to do with. Yeah, they're just those
Speaker 1: first few seconds when you meet somebody. And I mean
Speaker 1: some people may just call it a gut instinct about somebody,
Speaker 1: but what you're probably doing is reading body language. That's
Speaker 1: what that gut instinct is. Yes, and those things are
Speaker 1: processed and generated. And I think the Olympic system where
Speaker 1: emotions and feelings are processed in the brain. Yeah, Olympics system.
Speaker 1: From what I understand, that's right, which um, she thinks
Speaker 1: and I agree with her. That might explain why we
Speaker 1: have such uh, such like a powerful gut instinct about
Speaker 1: some people when we first meet them, because it's tied
Speaker 1: to emotion. Yeah. And the whole point is is, uh,
Speaker 1: this guy will cut your throat if you turn your
Speaker 1: back on him. Right, Probably not, but in our modern
Speaker 1: context it's you know, this guy will inflate the price
Speaker 1: of the car you want to buy if you if
Speaker 1: you're not careful. It's it's this totally different things, but
Speaker 1: it's based on the same principle. It's all based on
Speaker 1: body language, and we're able to make snap judgments that
Speaker 1: we can't even stop and really analyze what it was
Speaker 1: that person did or what it was about him. We
Speaker 1: just know that we trust him or don't, or we
Speaker 1: feel comfortable aroun him or not, we fear them or
Speaker 1: we don't, based on this body language. And what this
Speaker 1: professor is saying is we have a very ancient part
Speaker 1: of our brain that that is responsible for processing this stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I think, um, just for me personally, I think
Speaker 1: if you try to focus on that too much, then
Speaker 1: you're not doing yourselves any favors. Like let it be anate. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's some people who coach this kind of stuff that
Speaker 1: apparently say no do all sorts of crazy weird stuff,
Speaker 1: which we'll talk about later. Yeah, I agreed. But what
Speaker 1: you're looking at, um are There's three different categories I
Speaker 1: guess um innate learned and some that are both hybrid. Uh,
Speaker 1: expressions and postures and things that you do and like,
Speaker 1: for instance, you're born with. Like you can blush, that's
Speaker 1: an innate thing. You blush. You don't mean to blush,
Speaker 1: especially when somebody's staring at your cheek. Yeah. I don't
Speaker 1: think you can make yourself blush. Watch this, So just
Speaker 1: think about hot things in your mouth, tighten up your core. Uh.
Speaker 1: So that's the innate side. Learned would be things like um,
Speaker 1: hanging someone the bird, Yeah, out the car window, because
Speaker 1: everyone knows what that means. You're depending on where you
Speaker 1: are and you've learned it. Yeah, that's not something you're
Speaker 1: born doing like, yeah, I got your typer right here
Speaker 1: to a photo of a baby accidentally shooting a bird
Speaker 1: is one of the great things can we agree? But
Speaker 1: it's accidental, there's no meaning attached to it. That's what
Speaker 1: you think. Um. And then there's hybrid hybrid gestures that
Speaker 1: are like, um, shrugging is a really good example. It's
Speaker 1: something you know you naturally shrug right, right, but it's
Speaker 1: it's not contextual until you learn what to attach attach
Speaker 1: it to, Like I don't know, you're not born being
Speaker 1: like right or you or you you cry, but you've
Speaker 1: also learned that crying can uh get you something maybe right,
Speaker 1: or to get out of a traffic ticket or something sympathy.
Speaker 1: It can chase your parents off to the bar. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: one of those. Um. And then Chuck I said something
Speaker 1: about how you know, flipping somebody bird? Everybody knows what
Speaker 1: that means. It does depend on where you are, because
Speaker 1: there is especially with learned. So I think innate body
Speaker 1: language is virtually universal stuff that you couldn't possibly control. Like, uh,
Speaker 1: I can't remember why I read it. But if you
Speaker 1: take a bite of something putrid and you make that
Speaker 1: horrible like disgusted face, like oh my god, I'm about
Speaker 1: to vomit everywhere everybody's watching you doesn't have to go
Speaker 1: give me that and then take a bite and taste
Speaker 1: it themselves. They can look at your face and be like,
Speaker 1: I'm not going anywhere near that piece of feces that
Speaker 1: guy just took a bite of. Or that's how we
Speaker 1: all learned not to eat feces. Yeah, but there's also
Speaker 1: the human thing where you're like, oh God, smell this, right.
Speaker 1: That's the person who wants everyone else to suffer like
Speaker 1: they just did. But everybody else has just been communicated
Speaker 1: to by that innate face, that nasty face that you
Speaker 1: would make when you eat something disgusting. And again that
Speaker 1: evolutionarily that protects us than that respect and make stuff.
Speaker 1: So that's universal, but it's the learned stuff that's culturally dependent. Yeah, Like,
Speaker 1: for instance, they have a few examples in the article,
Speaker 1: um uh, smiling in the US might mean in the
Speaker 1: United States might mean you're happy, apparently, in Asia it
Speaker 1: might say I agree with you. It could also cover
Speaker 1: up embarrassment if they're embarrassing for you or something that
Speaker 1: you might smile. Um, yeah, is that what everyone's always
Speaker 1: smiling at me? They're embarrassed for me. Uh what else?
Speaker 1: Ie contact varies from place to place. Uh. Here in
Speaker 1: the United States, someone might think you're listening and uh
Speaker 1: like very key to into what you're saying. Are you
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy or your Ted Bundy? Or if you're in Africa,
Speaker 1: maybe it might be disrespectful to look someone right in
Speaker 1: the eye. Yeah, And I looked around and find out
Speaker 1: what part of Africa because I hate to leave it
Speaker 1: like that, you know, on this massive continent, do not
Speaker 1: look people in the eyes? Yeah, I couldn't find any,
Speaker 1: And everyone said some parts of Africa everywhere I look.
Speaker 1: No one specifically said. In the Congo, it's um considered
Speaker 1: uh impolite or aggressive or something like that to to
Speaker 1: maintain eye contact. It's definitely in in um Japan. If
Speaker 1: you make eye contact with somebody, you're saying, I'm your superior.
Speaker 1: So if you are socially or say business wise and
Speaker 1: inferior to somebody, you're you're averting your gaze and it's respectful.
Speaker 1: In the US, you shake hands and you make eye
Speaker 1: contact and you just you know, climbed a wrong right there,
Speaker 1: unless you're prince and then he's like nobody can hide
Speaker 1: eye contact with me? Is that for real? Because he
Speaker 1: likes to do things that just mess with people for fun.
Speaker 1: I think I think of the stories you've heard about
Speaker 1: Prince are not true. What about him playing basketball? He's
Speaker 1: like a really good basketball player, though, says Charlie Murphy.
Speaker 1: I believe that everything. Charlie Murphy says, I found some
Speaker 1: more culturally bound stuff. Thumbs up in New Zealand does
Speaker 1: not mean like right on? Does that mean like a
Speaker 1: thumb up your butt? Pretty much? Really? Yeah, you don't
Speaker 1: want to do that. Um. Similarly, when you make like
Speaker 1: the peace sign, as long as you're not showing the
Speaker 1: people in the back of your hand. Yeah. And in
Speaker 1: in Australia, and I believe New Zealand too, like that
Speaker 1: movie Bad Taste, the cover of It that I think
Speaker 1: Peter Jackson's first or second movie, the cover of It's
Speaker 1: like an alien going like that, and I'm like, what's
Speaker 1: the what's two? Why was he showing me the number two?
Speaker 1: Then as I grew up, I learned to understand what
Speaker 1: that was. What else you got? Uh? And some cultures,
Speaker 1: nodding means no, like nodding yes actually means no, like
Speaker 1: in Grease and Bulgaria getting in trouble. Yeah, and in Mexico, Mexico.
Speaker 1: This is what I found. Mexico, Haiti, and Spain. It
Speaker 1: is perfectly normal to go to a waiter, which I do.
Speaker 1: I don't do it to waiters, but I'm a kind
Speaker 1: of person. That's how you call someone over and get
Speaker 1: their attention. You may also make kissing noises at them
Speaker 1: to a waiter. Yeah. Really Yeah, So I go to Mexico,
Speaker 1: I need my check and I go. I guess according
Speaker 1: to this thing that I read, which seemed pretty legitimate. Interesting, Yeah,
Speaker 1: what was the website? I don't remember. I'll definitely send
Speaker 1: it to you to post. But it's it's um, it
Speaker 1: was like it was research material to be used by
Speaker 1: business people around the world. If it was a hoax,
Speaker 1: then they did a pretty good job. Fool in me
Speaker 1: got you. All right, let's take another break and we'll
Speaker 1: come back and we'll talk about deciphering some of these
Speaker 1: nonverbal cues right after this. Alright, So language is a
Speaker 1: very precise thing, or it should be or can be. Um,
Speaker 1: body language would you would think is just all over
Speaker 1: the at, but they're actually uh, some categories that some
Speaker 1: brilliant social scientists have come up with yeah, and I
Speaker 1: think they make sense. Yeah. Basically they've broken it down
Speaker 1: into five categories or five types of nonverbal communication and
Speaker 1: body language. Um, there's emblems. It's like hanging a bird, yeah,
Speaker 1: or shaking your fist or something like that. Something that
Speaker 1: that um is very symbolic of something else that you
Speaker 1: can also put into words, right, who shakes a fist
Speaker 1: at someone? Some people do, Okay, it's a good it's
Speaker 1: a it's a good yeah. Yeah, because it's saying like
Speaker 1: that meddle finger and then you're that's that's very aggressive.
Speaker 1: That's very aggressive. I'm just kidding. And never flicked someone
Speaker 1: a bird? Oh oh yeah, like in a car or something.
Speaker 1: No way, Yeah, apparently it's really dangerous. Yeah, and that's yeah,
Speaker 1: that's why I do it. I think it's just I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't get mad you didn't say things, but I
Speaker 1: would never. I don't know who that person is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it could be a psycho. Yeah. Then you're getting chased
Speaker 1: or you're getting shot at by someone because you you
Speaker 1: just had to shoot a bird. Yeah. We talked about
Speaker 1: this in the road Rage episode. Yeah. I wouldn't hang
Speaker 1: people to the bird and that's not smart. By the way,
Speaker 1: I want to update on that. I've I've been improving
Speaker 1: more and more behaviorally even since the road rage episode.
Speaker 1: And I was already on the right path then. So
Speaker 1: you're doing good behind the wheelers are doing so good.
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm about the same. Well, you've always
Speaker 1: been that way. I get mad. One time you rode
Speaker 1: with me. I think it was the first time you
Speaker 1: ever rode with me, and I started yelling at someone.
Speaker 1: You're like, really, you seem genuinely surprised, and I remember
Speaker 1: thinking like abnormal. Uh, well that was probably because you
Speaker 1: were like sending an email with your left hand and
Speaker 1: driving with your knee and had a coffee in the
Speaker 1: other I've gotten so much better because you value your life.
Speaker 1: I do. It's great. UM emblems after emblem illustrators, which
Speaker 1: UM like shaking your head to as far as emphasis
Speaker 1: if to emphasize something you're saying, like like no, Sure
Speaker 1: you can just say no, but the person is like,
Speaker 1: it doesn't really mean that until you shake your head
Speaker 1: but you say no slowly that you're really saying like
Speaker 1: do not ask me again? Yeah, boy, I never thought
Speaker 1: about that. The slow one really does mean something. Different.
Speaker 1: It does, it adds, it bulks it up, you know,
Speaker 1: um regulators. Uh. I think this is in a conversation
Speaker 1: to let someone else know that maybe all right, it's
Speaker 1: time for you to talk now, or it's time for
Speaker 1: me to talk right, or it's time for us to
Speaker 1: stop talking. Like looking at your watch and just getting
Speaker 1: them walking away. That's yeah, that's body language. I guess
Speaker 1: it is. It definitely speaks volumes. Um. There's adapters which
Speaker 1: I guess have to do with the person listening, or
Speaker 1: I guess anybody either one uh, making themselves more comfortable.
Speaker 1: Like you know, when you're in a conversation with somebody
Speaker 1: and they just kind of shift in their seat like
Speaker 1: settle in. Yeah, now they could be doing it differently
Speaker 1: where they're fidgeting, they're shifting in their seat uncomfortably, like
Speaker 1: they can't get comfortable. That say something totally different than
Speaker 1: somebody who's just like settling in, just making themselves more comfortable.
Speaker 1: Or I guess if you like, if you're having a
Speaker 1: conversation and someone just sits up on the edge of
Speaker 1: their seat, that kind of says we're done here, Sure,
Speaker 1: I'm about to get up. Yeah, so please say something enclosure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: especially if you sigh while you do that too, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then there's affect displaced. And these are the ones
Speaker 1: that most people think of when they think of body language.
Speaker 1: These are the ones that, um, you know, like where
Speaker 1: you make that that face when you eat something putrid,
Speaker 1: or your shoulders go up around your ears when you're
Speaker 1: scared all of a sudden, Yeah, if you're mad. It's
Speaker 1: emotional based. Yeah, emotion based, yeah, like your your eyebrows furrow. Uh.
Speaker 1: There's just so much body language. I came across this
Speaker 1: one guy from and m Argyle. No idea what the
Speaker 1: M stands for, but in Professor m Argyle, a researcher
Speaker 1: of body language, said that there's probably something like seven
Speaker 1: hundred thousand words in the body language human body language.
Speaker 1: I have no idea how he or she came up
Speaker 1: with that seems high, But it's fun to throw out there,
Speaker 1: junk science. You could say anything back then. And it's
Speaker 1: as far as like social psychology, um, misinterpreting body languages.
Speaker 1: We talked a little bit about that. That is very
Speaker 1: easy to do. UM. They have one little anecdotal story
Speaker 1: about a woman who was a consultant that I think
Speaker 1: she was pitching in the CEO of a big company
Speaker 1: and um, the guy just sat there basically with his
Speaker 1: arms crossed and didn't emote. At the end, was just
Speaker 1: like thank you, and she thought, well, I've blown this one.
Speaker 1: And turns out that is just the way that guy is.
Speaker 1: He loved he loved the jerk, he loved the presentation,
Speaker 1: and Uh, if he hadn't liked it, he just would
Speaker 1: have left, is what the partner said. I think. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you can easily misinterpret body language. UM, I don't
Speaker 1: know if it's I guess it could be dangerous and
Speaker 1: that well, I mean that's part of the problem. It
Speaker 1: can be dangerous, especially when you apply it to law
Speaker 1: enforcement like um. Paul Ekman. We talked about him heavily
Speaker 1: in the micro Expressions episode because he basically studied micro
Speaker 1: expressions through facial movement, facial muscle movement, and figured out
Speaker 1: what each one meant, and he came up with the
Speaker 1: Facial action Coding System the f a c S, which
Speaker 1: apparently the FBI and other law enforcement agencies used to
Speaker 1: tell whether you're lying or you're hiding something in an interrogation.
Speaker 1: Misreading that that's dangerous, that's when it becomes dangerous for sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this dude, I was talking about Joe Navarro, who was
Speaker 1: a twenty five year vett of the FBI. He's written
Speaker 1: a lot about body language, and he's one of the
Speaker 1: ones that warns about the myths and misreading things. But um,
Speaker 1: his uh. He wrote a whole article on shoulders and
Speaker 1: he said everyone's always talking about the face and facial expressions.
Speaker 1: He thinks you can read a lot into the shoulders
Speaker 1: of a person, whether it's slumping or bowing up or uh.
Speaker 1: And then he actually talked to criminals over his entire
Speaker 1: career and said, what do you look for in a victim?
Speaker 1: So if you're looking to not be victimized, you might
Speaker 1: want to avoid these things looking frail or weak or
Speaker 1: not athletic, work out, yeah, or just you know, try
Speaker 1: and carry yourself like you're not frail or weak, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think there's a lot to do with the shoulders. Um.
Speaker 1: Situational awareness, which is a big one. If you just
Speaker 1: look like your have your head in the clouds, that's
Speaker 1: a target what you're in your head about something? Yeah? Uh.
Speaker 1: And then um, the way someone swings their arms, um
Speaker 1: like vigor vigorously or real subdued, not at all like
Speaker 1: on on episode. Yeah, that was it was that Roquel Welch. No,
Speaker 1: it was um well yeah I ended up as Rockel Welts,
Speaker 1: but it was Molly Shannon. Oh yeah yeah, yeah you
Speaker 1: remember she like swept, Yeah, Elaine's desk just clean. Yeah, Shannon,
Speaker 1: and she's one of my favorites. She's fantastic. Um so
Speaker 1: what was Yeah, the arm swing and basically what these
Speaker 1: criminals would say to him over and over. As you know,
Speaker 1: their silver Backs don't go after other silver Backs. They
Speaker 1: go after the weak ones. And they said, it's the
Speaker 1: same with criminals. So I keep those shoulders straight. And uh,
Speaker 1: I was like, what the silver Back? I forgot? It
Speaker 1: sounds like a criminal corporate buzz speak. Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: silver Backs. It's the local soccer team. How do you
Speaker 1: not know what that is? Is it? Sure? That's what
Speaker 1: I thought? Yeah? All right? Uh? What else we got? Oh?
Speaker 1: These uh, these people that try and coach you. We're
Speaker 1: gonna mention that not jobs. I don't think they're not jobs, dude. Okay.
Speaker 1: The one, the one person who emerges as the hero
Speaker 1: from this article says, be very careful in trying to
Speaker 1: pay attention to your body language and speak consciously through it,
Speaker 1: because you're going to you're gonna have massive problems. That's
Speaker 1: not what body language is intended for. So the people
Speaker 1: who say no, master your body language and use it
Speaker 1: to communicate, You're gonna come off as a creep, an aggressive, weirdo,
Speaker 1: corporate creep if you do that. Well, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: if you're making a presentation, it's hard enough to get
Speaker 1: the words right. So if you start thinking like about
Speaker 1: every single movement you make and what that conveys, don't
Speaker 1: I agree. I don't think you're doing yourself any favors.
Speaker 1: Or Like, if you go to again a car sales
Speaker 1: car lot, right, and you're like, I'm going to make
Speaker 1: sure I look very defensive and aggressive, so I'm going
Speaker 1: to go rigid and my shoulders are gonna go up.
Speaker 1: The car sales is going to be like that. That
Speaker 1: guy's walking like a robot, I'm gonna take him for
Speaker 1: a ride. You know, there's you, You just you could
Speaker 1: conceivably speak through your body language more. I don't dispute
Speaker 1: that you can become more aware of your natural body
Speaker 1: language too. I don't dispute that either, but when you
Speaker 1: focus on it and use it as a technique to
Speaker 1: manipulate other people, I have issues with that. Well, here
Speaker 1: was one idea didn't think was terrible, like if you're
Speaker 1: if you do a lot of public speaking, then um,
Speaker 1: maybe watching yourself with the sound off. Sure. I didn't
Speaker 1: disagree with that one. That's not a terrible idea, I
Speaker 1: think as a matter of fact, I was like, maybe
Speaker 1: maybe I should try that. Uh. The other technique that
Speaker 1: was brought up was called mirroring. That means, and this
Speaker 1: just sounds crazy to me. This is when you actually
Speaker 1: try and mimic the person you're talking to, mimic their
Speaker 1: body language and expressions too, I guess, to make them
Speaker 1: feel more comfortable to you. People are attracted to themselves
Speaker 1: as the basis of it, so when you uh mimic them,
Speaker 1: they feel more relaxed around you. Like I really like
Speaker 1: that person. I like the cut of their jib. I
Speaker 1: don't know, I can't put my finger on it. But
Speaker 1: they're actually mimicking your own body language. If you're leaning
Speaker 1: leaning against the wall, they're they're gonna lean against the
Speaker 1: wall too. That's disconcerting, it is, that's that's nuts. You
Speaker 1: shouldn't do that to people. That's manipulative and weird, and
Speaker 1: it just be yourself. How about that? Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: this quote sums it up. I'm trying to learn. I'm trying. Sorry,
Speaker 1: Trying to use body language by reading a body language
Speaker 1: dictionary is like trying to speak French by reading a
Speaker 1: French dictionary. So you can list off all the nonverbal
Speaker 1: cues in the world. But if you try and learn
Speaker 1: the body language quote unquote because of that, then you're
Speaker 1: just gonna end up confused or you're gonna miss something
Speaker 1: actually said. Yeah. And plus also context is huge to Like,
Speaker 1: if you're just watching somebody's body language like a hawk
Speaker 1: and a conversation, you don't necessarily know that person's baseline.
Speaker 1: So what is by definition is body language dictionary. A
Speaker 1: red flag doesn't necessarily mean it's a red flag with
Speaker 1: that person, you know, like if they're yawning, are they
Speaker 1: bored or are they nervous? Right, you gotta have context
Speaker 1: and you can't just you can't just read people like that.
Speaker 1: It's stupid go with your gut um, But I don't
Speaker 1: think you should actively try to read it. If you
Speaker 1: want to go ahead, I don't care I'm not going
Speaker 1: to I did read an article with one um woman
Speaker 1: who was an expert supposedly, and she did talk a
Speaker 1: lot about the baseline. She's like, that's the most important
Speaker 1: thing is you don't know. You gotta know how someone
Speaker 1: normally is. Are they twitchy? Then? Uh, if you're they're
Speaker 1: twitching a conversation, that's normal for them, right, So it
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that you can't trust what they're saying, right then,
Speaker 1: it just means that they're a little awkward. Yeah, like me,
Speaker 1: You're not awkward. Do you got anything else? Nope? Friends,
Speaker 1: that is body language, and if you want to know
Speaker 1: more about it, you can type these words body language
Speaker 1: into the search bart how stuff works dot com. And
Speaker 1: since I said friends, it's time for a listener mail. Uh,
Speaker 1: this is from this is a question actually I said
Speaker 1: we'd answer on the air. Hey, guys, been listening for
Speaker 1: quite a few years, and you've seen me through a
Speaker 1: lot of years of growth out of high school and
Speaker 1: into my own as an adult. Of a question that's
Speaker 1: been a challenge for me recently, I'm studying permaculture quite intensively.
Speaker 1: In parts of the study are pretty depressing. My climate
Speaker 1: change species lost in unfair trade. I try to reflect
Speaker 1: positives only to my clients who are trying to grow
Speaker 1: their own food, because they'd rather encourage them to sustain
Speaker 1: themselves physically and emotionally than feel guilted or trapped into
Speaker 1: changing a lifestyle. Realize that having the opportunity in time
Speaker 1: to focus on ethical choices the luxury, and want to
Speaker 1: avoid shaming people. I think this approach is good for
Speaker 1: my own well being because tackling issues bigger than myself
Speaker 1: seems more harmful than productive. But like you, part of
Speaker 1: my job uh is education. Um So the question is
Speaker 1: how do you guys deal with darker topics that you cover.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate the way you do it some uh
Speaker 1: and it would like some insight and advice. How prevent
Speaker 1: these topics from weighing too heavily on you and still
Speaker 1: live a life of enjoyment yet conveying topics honestly? And
Speaker 1: that is from Annales in Australia. UM. I think my
Speaker 1: answer is like when we cover something like dementia or
Speaker 1: HIV like we recently did, we're always going to have
Speaker 1: humor in there, respectfully and in the right ways because
Speaker 1: that's what we do. Plus also it helps when we're
Speaker 1: getting this stuff across. It's not like it's not like
Speaker 1: we're causing dementia. We're just saying, like, here's all the
Speaker 1: information that that we found on this, here's everything you
Speaker 1: need to know about dementia. And I think the thing
Speaker 1: that that allows us to go from you know, lighthearted
Speaker 1: topic to a very dark topic to whatever is that
Speaker 1: we're we're putting it out there as objectively as possible,
Speaker 1: as unbiased as possible, trying to we're not passing much
Speaker 1: judgment on it depending on the topic, but for the
Speaker 1: most part, we don't really pass too much judgment on it,
Speaker 1: and I think that that allows us to talk about anything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and as far as taking it home, Um, if we
Speaker 1: do something that's a big bummer that it really impacts me,
Speaker 1: it'll bump me out for sure. But I'm just like
Speaker 1: anything else, I think knowledge is is key to Uh.
Speaker 1: The more you know about something, less um scared you
Speaker 1: might be of it. Yeah, you just go work it out,
Speaker 1: you know. Definitely. Yeah, that's great answer you too. If
Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with Chuck for me
Speaker 1: or Jerry or anybody who we could conceivably pass a
Speaker 1: message along too. All right, Yeah, you can. You can
Speaker 1: tweet to us at s y s K podcast. You
Speaker 1: can join us on Facebook dot com slash stuff you
Speaker 1: Should Know. You can send us an email to Stuff
Speaker 1: podcast the house. Stuffworks dot com and has always joined
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