1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: The art world is an unregulated business billions of dollars. 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: It is essentially a money laundering business. You're working with 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: an artificial scarcity of market, and so it's fraud, with 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: people cutting corners and things happening. It was when Ann Friedman, 5 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: then the newly minted director of the Knoedler Gallery, first 6 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: met Gafa Rosales had a soho art opening. Larry Reuben 7 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: had been pushed out of Knoedler a year earlier in 8 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: a coup that ended with Ann Friedman being installed at 9 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: the blessing of Michael Hammer. K Nodler's sales were flat, 10 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: the clients were leaving in droves, and Ann Friedman needed 11 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: new work to help propel the gallery forward. The Knoedler, 12 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:57,639 Speaker 1: always one step behind the times, was hurtling towards the 13 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: art world of a new millennium. The galleries long time 14 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: assistant him Andrade, had introduced Ann to the soft spoken, 15 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: polite woman of Mexican heritage. As fate would have it, 16 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: Gfia Rosalez had two works of art on paper she 17 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: wanted to sell. About. All that anyone could agree on 18 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: was that hime Andrade was a shy Ecuadorian man of 19 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: modest height. He was one of eleven children who had 20 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: come to New York in the early nineteen sixties and 21 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: found a home in a circle of artificionados. He'd made 22 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: his way to Larry Ruben's gallery one Street and worked 23 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: as the galley's driver. Reuben had then brought him over 24 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: to Knoedler as a sort of jack of old trades. 25 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: His job was to do pretty much whatever anyone wanted 26 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: him to do. As Anne put it in one of 27 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: her interviews for Vanity Fair, he would do everything from 28 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: changing light fixtures to running errands. But he always wore 29 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: a blazer and a tie and went to fancy dinner 30 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: parties and escorted well to do women. He was like 31 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: a mascot, but I mean that in a respectful way. 32 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: He epitomized the spirit of the gallery. Despite a faulty 33 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: grasp of English. After half a century, Hymie was perfectly 34 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: capable of charming one of those women into buying a 35 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:27,839 Speaker 1: painting from Knodler. Andrade's greatest passion was Latin American art. 36 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: As late as two thousand eleven, while the forgery ring 37 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: was metastasizing amid criminal investigations, the boyish Andrade gave a 38 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: talk about Ecuadorian art and his fifty years of immersion 39 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: in it at the mid Manhattan Library. The Knottler, in 40 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 1: a press release for it, would describe Andrott's long time 41 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: friend and dealer David Herbert as quote one of the 42 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 1: best American portrait artists. Unquote that was patently untrue. But Herbert, 43 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: upon his death, would be cast in another role as 44 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: a central figure in the back story of Knoedler's conspiracy 45 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: of fakes, possibly aided and embedded by hime Andrade, who 46 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: had just become David Herbert's executor. With boxes of documents 47 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: rich in art world lore, Anne would never quite come 48 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: out and say explicitly that him may have steered her 49 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: to the papers that gave rise to a conspiracy ring 50 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: of art forgers, but more than one Knodler's staffer would 51 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: take umbrage at the way Anne defended him less than 52 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: forcefully in Vanity Fair. Was Anne implying that hime Andrade 53 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: had introduced her to Glafia Rosales knowing the two works 54 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: at issue were fake, or had him done no more 55 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: than to introduce his boss to a Mexican woman who 56 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: shared his love of Latin American arts. Here again is 57 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: writer Michael Schneyerson. Leslie Feeley took a dim review of 58 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: Anne and her treatment of Himie. She said Anne treated 59 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: Himie more like a gopher than a mascot. Quote. He 60 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: was a very kind, dignified man, but Anne would send 61 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: him out to get her tampons. Unquote. He had a 62 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: poor education the legacy of his childhood in Ecuador. Jimmy 63 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: was a gopher. He that's he was. He was going 64 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: and he got to know a lot of people in 65 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: the art business. He had more aught in his home, 66 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: but all South America. That's the Noteler's art handler Joe 67 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 1: Stevens Andrade rented a ground floor apartment in an ornate 68 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: but musty rental building at seventeen East seventieth Street, literally 69 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: next door to the Noodler. He seemed to like being 70 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: on call for whatever needs a rose. I used to 71 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 1: stay there whenever I had openings because I worked so late. 72 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: And now I used to go and wife said, man, 73 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 1: I'm gonna come, I'm saying, Heimie's Chris, Jimmy. We'd go 74 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: a call out and have you know, you know, at 75 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: ten o'clock, ten thirty at night, after we locked up 76 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: and tell me about the apartment that he had. There 77 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 1: was stuffed, like this place is three four times bigger 78 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: than his apartment. He had a huge and art work everywhere. 79 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: Fifty pieces on the wall is big. He had all 80 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: this African South American sculptures everywhere, boxes everywhere. You couldn't 81 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: put another thing on that counter. That's a pack. He 82 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: had closets filled with this stuff. He was like, it 83 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: looked like aoid up who did everything. Rosales and Androde 84 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: had struck up a friendship based on Latin American artist 85 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: sometime in the late es. At some point, Rosals mentioned 86 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: she was trying to sell two works on paper by 87 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: Richard deepen Corn, the great abstract artist represented for years 88 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 1: by the Knodler Gallery until Larry reuben departure and Anne's 89 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: promotion did I may think Ann Friedman might take a 90 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 1: look and tell Glyphira what she thought. This was a 91 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: pivotal moment the first time Glypira Rosalee focused on Ann 92 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: Friedman as her target for newly minted forgeries. Soon enough, 93 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: and Friedman found herself looking at a pair of classic 94 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: deepen Corn drawings. Sadly, that great profusion of Ocean Park 95 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: paintings and drawings. All those Christmas mornings the staff had 96 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 1: described opening brand new deep In corn work had come 97 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 1: to an end. Deep In Corn had died in and 98 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: his daughter Gretchen and son in law Richard Grant, co 99 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: heads of the Artists Foundation, had ended the galleries long 100 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: association with Deepen Corn. They didn't much like Ann Friedman. 101 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: They liked her even less after the coup that put 102 00:06:54,400 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: her in charge. Still, Nodler was widely known as Eben 103 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: Corn's main gallery. There would be no more primary works 104 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: directly from the artist, but secondary works, those that had 105 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: changed hands at least once, were fair game for anyone 106 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: who wanted to buy or sell them, and Nodler could 107 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: put buyers and sellers together as well or better than 108 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: anyone else, given its history with the artist. So when 109 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: hera offered to show Anne too Deepen Corns, the Nodler's 110 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: director jumped at the chance. Days after Anne's coup in November, 111 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: a certain calm had come over the Kndler Gallery. Larry 112 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: Reuben had even agreed to stay on as director until 113 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: the last day of the year. The old art world 114 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: War horse had recovered his spirits somewhat and shrugged off 115 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: the coup. Perhaps it was time for him to leave 116 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: Ndler after all. Gracefully, he even did Ann Friedman a 117 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: favor by agreeing to take a look at the too 118 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: Deepened Corn works on paper. Like most of Deep and 119 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: Corn's work since the mid nineteen sixties, these were geometrical 120 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: abstractions from his Ocean Park series. When Anne asked where 121 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: they'd come from, Rosals demurred. Regrettably. She said her client 122 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: wanted to remain anonymous. That was hardly unusual for works 123 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: brought in by perfect strangers. Unfortunately, neither of the drawings 124 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: had identifying marks on their verso verso is what dealers 125 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: call the back of an artwork, no record of the 126 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: works tracing back to the artists studio. There was no 127 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: trace of later buyers and sellers, no auction markings either. 128 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: In a word, the drawings had no provenance. That was 129 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: a problem. So what is provenance. It's the paper trail 130 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: of what we know about an artwork, starting from the 131 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: time it was created. It tells us who owned it, 132 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: when it was sold, where it was shown, and so forth. 133 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: Had Deep and Corn been alive, the issue of provenance 134 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: for these works would have been moot after all, the 135 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: artist was the best judge of his own work. He 136 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: could say in an instant whether these two drawings were 137 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: done by his hand or not. When an artist died, 138 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: the primary work he left behind in his studio or 139 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: home was easy to judge and usually genuine too, so 140 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: it wasn't difficult for the artist's family or executor to 141 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: authenticate those works and record them for posterity. The challenge 142 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: came with secondary works sold after the artist's death, works 143 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: bought and sold and bought again, works that sometimes vanished 144 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: and then reappeared. Were they real or not? An artist 145 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: like Deep and Corn post a special challenge. His Ocean 146 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: Park works were all beautiful, but also quite similar. Larry Reuben, 147 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: as it turned out, was underwell by the Ocean park 148 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: esque drawings, and Freedman showed him quote I told her 149 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: I did not think they were good, Reuben later told 150 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: Vanity Fair, which was to say, I thought they were fake. 151 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: He said the gallery couldn't or certainly shouldn't sell them. 152 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 1: Not long after, Deep and Corn's widow, Phillis, paid a 153 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: visit to the Noddler with her daughter Gretchen, and Friedman 154 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 1: had called the drawings to their attention. And the family 155 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: were worried about them. When Anne laid them out on 156 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: a table at the gallery, Gretchen and Phillis stared at 157 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: those drawings for a long time. They looked quite good. 158 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: We really, we're pretty impressed. It was clearly a beautiful piece. 159 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: I am Gretchen deep and Corn Grant. My father is 160 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: Richard Deepon Corn. Despite the exceptional quality of the works, 161 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: the family felt they were not authentic. You could see 162 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: the hand of the forger in both of them. You 163 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: look at someone's work long enough in my entire life. 164 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: I'm seventy six years old, so I was alive during 165 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:19,559 Speaker 1: my father's career, and you have a sense of it. 166 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: Not perfect, but you do have a pretty good sense. 167 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: What I said to and at the time was that 168 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: the problem for me was that they didn't have any soul. 169 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: They didn't seem to breathe. I just couldn't relate to it, 170 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: even though it was clearly a beautiful piece, and reactions 171 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: surprised them. She didn't even thank them for calling attention 172 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: to what might be fake Deepen corns. Neither did she 173 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 1: suggest she would hand them back to their owner, whoever 174 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: they might be. The whole question of what the nobler 175 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: might do with them was simply not addressed. Of course, 176 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: she didn't say to in Freedman, I think they're fake, 177 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: because you know, in the art world you cannot call 178 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: something a fake because if you do so, you might 179 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: be sued for defamation of property. So people are very careful. 180 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: Just Seli Reggaeteo is a reporter currently with the Center 181 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: for Investigative Reporting. She pursued the note of story for 182 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: several years and came up with a few scoops, starting 183 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: with the story of Dr Bernard Krueger. They might say 184 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: this doesn't look right, but you don't quite say this 185 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: is fake. So it's quite interesting that I talked to 186 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: both Russian Demonquirn as she was seeing this this pieces 187 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: as they were about to be sold, and then I 188 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 1: also talked to Bernard Krueger, who was looking at the 189 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: pieces from the buyer's perspective. And in both instances, you 190 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: see there were several things strange about this. You know, 191 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: where they were coming from, how they looked, how much 192 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: they were being offered. All of those things adopts to 193 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: you know, there's something strange happening here. Here's Francis Beatty again. 194 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: I do remember going to a Deep and Corn show 195 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: of Deep and Corn works on paper and someone saying 196 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: to me, you have to be super careful because you 197 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: want to make sure that you're not buying one of 198 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: the things that the family has disavowed. And the idea 199 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: that you would show something, let alone sell it, that 200 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: the family of the artist has disavowed, is absolutely shocking. 201 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you have a responsibility to your client, and 202 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: if something has a cloud over it, the cloud is 203 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 1: never going to disperse. Since the drawings were secondary market works, 204 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: the family couldn't keep Ann Friedman from doing what she 205 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 1: wanted with them, which was, of course, to sell them, 206 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: as Larry Reuben later told Vanity Fair, and Friedman could 207 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: justify selling those two drawings because the artist's wife had 208 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: not called them fake, nor had Larry Reuben. I wasn't 209 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 1: one sure they weren't real, Reuben explained later. And you 210 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: can get into a lot of trouble by declaring something 211 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: as fake when you don't have the hard evidence. And 212 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: since I was leaving, I said to Anne, fine, you 213 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 1: handle it, and she did. Despite the doubts expressed by 214 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: the family, and Friedman sold the Deep and Corn drawings 215 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: to the perfect buyer. More art fraud in a minute. 216 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: Not long after the Deep and Corn Family's disconcerting visit 217 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: to Knoedler, a doctor named Bernard Krueger received a phone 218 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: called he never expected to get. Krueger was a collector, 219 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: perhaps not a great collector, but an eager one, especially 220 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: in regard to which your deep in Corn's work. He 221 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: liked to think he had an inside track. He was, 222 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: after all, and Friedman's doctor. He told me he loved 223 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: Devon Coorn's work for many years, and at the time 224 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: he was alive in the nineties, and even before that, 225 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: I think he started buying the first diven Corns in 226 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: the eighties. He had to go through Knodler because at 227 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: the time Richard Devon Corn was alive and Knodler represented him. 228 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: And what Ben Krueger told me is that every time 229 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: he wanted to buy a piece, it was not easy. 230 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: You would think you have money, you want to buy 231 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: a piece of art, You walk in and say, I 232 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: want this, But that's not how it works in the 233 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: art world. You know, there is no like free market, 234 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: or you know, they sell for whoever they want to sell, 235 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: and they might give up price to me and a 236 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: different price to you. And the way that Bernard described 237 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: to me is that Ann Friedman was quite difficult and 238 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: quite protective, and she would say to him, no, you 239 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: cannot buy this one. If you want, you can buy 240 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: this other one. He said to me, I would need 241 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: to beg to buy, and sometimes she would let me buy, 242 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: and sometimes she wouldn't. And I asked him why why 243 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: would she do that? And he said, well, that was 244 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: her way of having power and having control. Despite having 245 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: an inside track as Hans doctor, Bernard Krueger was having 246 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: a difficult time purchasing a work from the artist he 247 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: most coveted. Surprisingly, all of that would change after Deep 248 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: and Corn passed away in early and all of a sudden, 249 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: Bernard Krueger gets a call from Knoedler saying, we have 250 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: the two different corns for you to see. You know, 251 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: they just came in. I think you would like it. 252 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: I was a ready, like, wait a minute, don't you 253 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: think that was change? For years you've been begging to 254 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: buy a dipping corn. All of a sudden they're calling 255 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 1: you and offer you a dipping corn. And he said no. 256 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 1: I thought I was great. I thought I was finally 257 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: getting a good deal on a dipping corn, because he 258 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: bought one of them and that was one of the fakes. 259 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: If I remember the numbers right. He told me the 260 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: last deep and Corn he had bought for like a 261 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 1: hundred twenty five hundred thirty five thousand, and that one 262 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: he bought for eighty thou dollars. So again he was thrilled. 263 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: He's like, all of a sudden, I'd been offered a 264 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: deep and corn, and it's cheaper than the last one 265 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: I bought. Nadler did well by those two Deepen Corn sales, 266 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: earning forty five thousand dollars on each. When word of 267 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: the sale reached the Deep and Corn family, they were shocked, 268 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: As the late artist's daughter Gretchen said, we thought, being 269 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,400 Speaker 1: the naive people we were and being honest, we basically 270 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: thought she would simply return them and that would be that. Instead, 271 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 1: she wrote a letter to my mother and to me 272 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 1: that we had come to the gallery and authenticated these works, 273 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 1: and therefore she had sold them, and we were very distressed. 274 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: I wanted to write to Anne and tell her that 275 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: this was not okay, and that we had not authenticated them. 276 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: She can sell whatever she wants, but she can't say 277 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:39,360 Speaker 1: that we authenticated it. And my mother was very shy 278 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 1: about being in an antagonistic position with anybody, and she 279 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: really didn't want me to write on behalf of myself 280 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: or on behalf of her, and so that was dropped. Later, 281 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: Dr Krueger would say he had sold the work and 282 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: had no idea where they were. Perhaps, But over the 283 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: next fifteen years, the Deepened Corns would routinely hear of 284 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 1: fake Deepen Corn works on paper popping up in the market. 285 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: Each new appearance meant that some new owner was trying 286 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: to unload his Deepen Corns, either with or without the 287 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: knowledge that they were fake. When the works once again vanished, 288 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: the implication was just as clear. Some new owner had 289 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: been duped or worse, set out to con his own 290 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: next prospective buyer. In the years to come, stories like 291 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: that would find their way to the Deepen Corn Foundation 292 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: on a regular basis. Eventually, the family counted some two 293 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: d and fifty deep in Corn images around the world, 294 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: submitted for authentication or just out of curiosity. They ranged 295 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 1: from the occasional top drawer forgery to when art students 296 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: homage for class credit left in a garage to be 297 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: celebrated briefly as the real McCoy. Times were tough in 298 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: the art market of and few galleries were feeling it 299 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: as much as Noler, which had little to live on 300 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: after Larry Reuben's departure other than its reputation and venerability. 301 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: I mean, she wasn't making much money at I mean 302 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: business wasn't good, and so she needs something was needed, 303 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: something really special. Money was needed. Still, Anne seemed to 304 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: harbor lingering concerns about those works. Perhaps she was eager 305 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: to prove their authenticity to herself and to pave the 306 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: way for more paintings from Glafira Rosales. Surely Coalfia could 307 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: share with Anna telling detail or two details to assure 308 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: her the works had some shred of provenance. Gently, but firmly, 309 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: Glyphia declined to say anything about where the deep and 310 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,719 Speaker 1: corn drawings had come from. She would only say she 311 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: was representing a man she called Mr X Junior, whose 312 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: parents had passed on to their son more paintings by 313 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 1: some of the best known artists of the post war period. 314 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: Soon enough, Anne was calling him Mr X Junior too, 315 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: and referring to his parents as Mr. And Mrs X. 316 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: It sounded a bit silly, but maybe a fan played 317 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: ball Glyphia might introduce Anne to Mr X Juniorphia did 318 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 1: say that Mr X Junior had more works to sell 319 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 1: if they could be placed discreetly. These were works that 320 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: had been long stored by Mr X hermetically sealed. Even 321 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: Glafira had said the paintings had been in storage for 322 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,199 Speaker 1: so long that critics and collectors would be thrilled to 323 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: see these lost masterpieces finally unwrapped. I have never, and 324 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: I actually don't have any colleagues who I know, who 325 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: have regularly managed to obtain from a private person a 326 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: picture for let's say two hundred thousand dollars that then 327 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: they could sell for eight hundred thousand dollars. I mean, 328 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: it just simply doesn't happen. If somebody came to me 329 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: and said, I want to sell you this Cliford Still, 330 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: and I know that the Cliford Stills fair market price 331 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: would be a million, and they say to me, well, 332 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to sell it to you for two hundred thousand, 333 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 1: I would think immediately that it was hot. What other conclusion. 334 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: It's the same in any business. I think if you're 335 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: a diamond merchant, somebody comes to you with the diamond, 336 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: and they're selling it to you for of its real value. 337 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: You would assume that there was something wrong with it. 338 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: You say no, thank you. And if you bought a 339 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: painting by mistake, letting your passions get the better of you, 340 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: what would you do when you came to your senses. 341 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: These things once in a while happened to dealers. You 342 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: just you make a mistake, but the minute you do, 343 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: you recognize it, you give the money back. You know you, 344 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: you take it, and you learn from it. Otherwise you 345 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,920 Speaker 1: lose your reputation completely and utterly. So that's one of 346 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 1: the really key things. It wasn't long before fa Rosalez 347 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 1: was back in the Nler, this time with a painting 348 00:23:55,160 --> 00:24:00,159 Speaker 1: by abstract expressionist Mark Rothko under her arm. It was 349 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: a beautiful work, has Anne described it later, with dark 350 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: orbs against a pale pink peach backdrop, and like the 351 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: Deepen Corns, it had no provenance other than the link 352 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: to Mr and Mrs X. I think that they were 353 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: the consortium, not just Cliff ear Right. They created paintings 354 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: that were actually quite smart because they were very highly valued. 355 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: I'm Maria Condakova, I'm an author journalist and psychologist, the 356 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: author most recently of the Biggest Bluff and also most 357 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: relevant to this, the confidence game. I mean, let's be honest, 358 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 1: Abstract expressionism is not necessarily the most technically advanced paintings. 359 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: Now I'm not saying that Rothco is not technically advanced. 360 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: He is. He could paint anything. But for someone who's not, 361 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: you know, incredibly technically advanced painters, probably easier to create 362 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 1: a Rothco than a rum round one. That I think 363 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: you said in your book, it's very important for the 364 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: con artists not to move too quickly. That was the 365 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,199 Speaker 1: whole part of the what I think you call the 366 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: long con. Something that con artists, the good con artists 367 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:19,199 Speaker 1: have in abundance is patients. Some cons take decades to 368 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: play out all the way. So you really need to 369 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,479 Speaker 1: be able to see the long game and not just 370 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: be in it for you know, the immediate profit. You 371 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: need to be able to see how does this play 372 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: out over time? And one thing that you have to 373 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: hand to life Era is you know, she didn't just 374 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: do her homework on and she did her homework on 375 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: the art mark and how that world works and what 376 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: people expect if you walk in right away with twenty 377 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: roth Goes and a few Pollocks in there, someone's gonna say, Okay, 378 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: hold on one second, we're gonna do some very heavy 379 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: duty analysis on this, but one at a time. Lost treasures, 380 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: you know, we really don't want to part with them, 381 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: but we're we're selling them piecemeal. That's much more compelling 382 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: and invites less scrutiny. And she's also building the market 383 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:15,640 Speaker 1: for herself because now, even though there was originally no provenance, 384 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: now a lot of these pieces are in collections and 385 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: some end up making it two shows and to museums, 386 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: and so that creates the provenance that this is the 387 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: collection of Mr. X. And some of these have already 388 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: been validated by some of the leading galleries and museums 389 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: and collectors in the world. I think that if someone 390 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: brought me a Rothco who I didn't know and who 391 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 1: had no kind of bona fidees in the art world, 392 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: I would be very suspicious. Where did this person get it? 393 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: And it was stolen? I mean, you don't just go 394 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 1: oneer around with Rothko's right, and did show the painting 395 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 1: to Christopher Rothko, son of the late artist, who professed 396 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: to find it beautiful That was enough for Anne. She 397 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: bought the painting for one dollars from Rosalis. She sold 398 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: it to the Michelle Rosenfeld Gallery for three thousand dollars 399 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: for a gross profit of one hundred nine Later, when 400 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: she heard about the sale, Francis Beatty found Anne's strategy underwhelming. 401 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: If she showed it to Christopher Rothko, I would say 402 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 1: that would be a good first step. But that doesn't 403 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: tell you where it came from. That doesn't tell you 404 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 1: that the person has good title to it. You know 405 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: that you would have to investigate. A few people knew 406 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: that Nodler was starting to deal in works without any provenance. 407 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: The circle had been confined to Glypha and any confederates 408 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: she might have, as well as the staffers at the gallery, 409 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: who could gossip but hardly take on their imperious boss. 410 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,959 Speaker 1: Leslie Feely recalled seeing one of the Rothcoes brought in 411 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 1: by Gpa. I just walked in and saw this great 412 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 1: red painting, presuming to be a Rothco. I just couldn't 413 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 1: even look at it because it was so garish and 414 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:35,239 Speaker 1: so not by Rothko, and they were selling it for 415 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: at the time million dollars. It was not that large 416 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: and it was clearly a fake. None of these paintings 417 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: had any provenance, at least of the kind that the 418 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: art market expected, Nor were any in the catalog resume 419 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: of Mark Rothko or the soon to be completed catalog 420 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: resume for the late Richard Diebencorn. How could it an 421 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: organization and not check the provenance. That's what you're supposed 422 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: to do for an art fairy, supposed to check the 423 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: provenance on any painting, particularly a Rothco. And there it was. 424 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: Nobody took it out, just sitting there. But just to 425 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: play devil's advocate here, many paintings must meet the market 426 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: with no provenance because the artist has just finished them, 427 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: or or maybe he put them aside and got bored 428 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: with his painting. In the old days, you had to 429 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: ask Jeane thaw On Francis O'Connor to write an attestation. 430 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: I mean recently, there are lots of states that don't 431 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: want to write authenticity, which is very problematic. And so 432 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: what you do is you get people in, you sit 433 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,959 Speaker 1: them down and you say, I'm worried about this. You know, 434 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: this is a picture which has been offered to me. 435 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: I think it looks beautiful, but it has I have 436 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: no proven it's on it, and I really need to 437 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: know what you think about it. You ask a couple 438 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 1: of people, and you do your due diligence because you're 439 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: on the line for it. One of the most important 440 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 1: aspects of provenance is in an artwork by a great 441 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: established artist be readily found, and that artists catalog resume. 442 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: A catalog resume is done by scholars or a family 443 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: in which they try to write down every single picture 444 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: that to date has been attributed to this artist and 445 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: that they think is legitimate. And typical catalog resume is 446 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 1: like the Pollock catalog resume. It says where the work 447 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 1: comes from in scrupulous detail. Sometimes it says whether it's 448 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: been repainted, whether it was in a fire. I mean, 449 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: you try to get as much information as you possibly can. 450 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: You try to document every single picture by that artist. 451 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: You also have to be sure that you're passing something 452 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: that's legitimate or is considered legitimate by the authorities. Of course, 453 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: it does sometimes happen that a painting lacks any provenance. 454 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: It's rare, but it happens. So what do you do? 455 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: Start calling in the experts and hopefully get them to 456 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: look at the actual work, Invite them to a gallery opening, 457 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 1: Steer them to your newly acquired Barnett Newman A Rothko. 458 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: Is there anything wrong with doing what she did? As 459 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: far as that goes, one could argue that Anne and 460 00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: asking the depon Corn family to look at those two 461 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: works on paper was acting quite properly. No, there's nothing 462 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: wrong with doing that. I mean, you want to know 463 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: what distinguished scholars and what people who are regarded to 464 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: have what we call the art business a good eye, 465 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: in other words, they have, you have some reason to 466 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: believe that you would risk your reputation on their say so. 467 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: I guess one important nuance of this is that if 468 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: you want to get that expert's opinion, you are upfront 469 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: about asking him, rather than sort of inveigling him to 470 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: come into your office after hours while everyone's downstairs having 471 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: a glass of wine, and you show this picture and 472 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: the expert says, oh, that's a nice picture, how beautiful. 473 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: That is not the same thing as authentication, which is 474 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: sort of the ultimate stamp of approval. This is just 475 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: an expert, perhaps caught a bit away from office hours, 476 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 1: and saying that looks like a nice painting. It's not roof. 477 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: Could there ever be a situation where you've got enough 478 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: signatures from experts that people would say, yes, that's real. 479 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: I mean, now we all know you have it forensically tested. 480 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: I mean, if you have such a picture that has 481 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: no provenance and you are very suspicious about you get 482 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: it on consignment from whoever it is, and you have 483 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:28,560 Speaker 1: it tested, you have to get a complete consensus. You 484 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: have to have every single person who could question such 485 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: a thing in line. And then of course you have 486 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: the whole issue. Can you pass good title to this picture? 487 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: Which is I think just as problematic and far more frightening. 488 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: You are passing good title and guaranteeing the authenticity and 489 00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: the title. That's what the uniform code said, as you 490 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: were doing if you write an invoice. The staffers learned 491 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: to keep their distance when Rosaliss name was mentioned. Whenever 492 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: something about the Rosales works was discussed. One staffer said 493 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: that was a closed door meeting for Anne. That was 494 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: unusual at all. Other times the door to Anne's second 495 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: floor office was open. Sign new House would step over 496 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: a rope and come on in. A staffer recalls of 497 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: the publishing mogul, so the door was only closed for 498 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: certain sensitive meetings. It was around this time that Anne 499 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 1: and Glepa held a staff meeting to discuss how many 500 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 1: paintings remained in the mysterious collection. Rosales identified approximately eight 501 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 1: works that were still available. There is another still a 502 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: Gottlieb too, decoon ngs a motherwell a new whom in 503 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: one or two Caldlers. That's attorney Emily rice Baum. Over 504 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: a decade later, at trial, attorneys Gregory Claric, Aaron Crowle, 505 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 1: and Emily would present evidence of handwritten notes of this 506 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: infamous meeting. The lawyers noted something peculiar about cafe as 507 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:22,320 Speaker 1: purported inventory, and then Anne asks is there a pollock? 508 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: And lo and behold it all says I'll go check, yeah, 509 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 1: let me check. She was not on her list. You 510 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: would think if she had a Jackson Pollock, she would 511 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: come in and say she had a Jackson Pollock. And 512 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: then it's you know, two years later, having gone to none, 513 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: she suddenly has five. Did someone did discover a missing 514 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: pollock in their attic? Once every decade or so, does 515 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,760 Speaker 1: something like that pop up? A Rothcoe that roughly traded 516 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: with his dentist for some dental work? Does that pop up. Sure, 517 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,400 Speaker 1: you know there's one here and there's one there, But 518 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,320 Speaker 1: are there three? Are there? Fo I from the same source, 519 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: are there eight? Are there twelve? Or there twenty? Are 520 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: there forty one? Literally? Never, Despite her initial estimate of 521 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: having eight paintings in the collection, Gafa would manage to 522 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: deliver over thirty more works to Knodler, including five supposed 523 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: Jackson Pollock's, surprisingly and treated Kndler's own artists just as 524 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: harshly as she treated the galleries assistance and just trashed 525 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: her own artists, every single one of them. Knodler artist 526 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: Donald Sultan later said she would never answer phone calls. 527 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 1: She was completely disinterested in the artist she had. She 528 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: kind of ignored everyone who was there. All her dealings 529 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: were secretive, Sultan said. According to Sultan, and was out 530 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: of her depth. After Larry Reuben's departure, Sultan said it 531 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 1: was as if the director of the Metropolitan Museum of 532 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: Art was like Philippe de Montebelle, deciding that he's going 533 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: to turn the thing over to the secretary. According to 534 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,800 Speaker 1: one staffer who worked closely with her, Anne was not 535 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 1: above dramatizing a story to sell a painting. There was 536 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 1: this painting by Helen Frankenthaler. We had hung onto it 537 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: for a couple of years, recalls a staffer. A museum 538 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,320 Speaker 1: director came into Anne's office and had the painting out, 539 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: and the museum director said, where did that come from? 540 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 1: The staffer went on to say there had been a 541 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 1: woman killed in a hit and run. This was in 542 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: the news. She had been an art collector and said, 543 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:37,920 Speaker 1: I can't really tell you, but there was a recent 544 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,399 Speaker 1: tragedy you might have read about in the news, very 545 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 1: sad story. The staffers said, in fact, we had bought 546 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: the painting at auction in or whatever. An art net 547 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 1: search would have shown it hadn't come from this woman's collection. 548 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 1: But Anne just lie to this director why we probably 549 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: got it on the cheap and Anne was marking it up. 550 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: On another occasion, Anne took in a double paneled Milton 551 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: Avery painting, which was to say that there was a 552 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 1: painting on each side of the wood. Instead of showing 553 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 1: it that way to the Averies, Anne reportedly had a 554 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 1: conservator split the painting down the middle and get two 555 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: salable works instead of one, a considerably greater profit to 556 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 1: her and the gallery. I asked Francis if this was 557 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 1: typical in any way for a gallery director. Never in 558 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: a million years. I mean, I you know, you hear 559 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 1: these stories about people doing them in the kind of 560 00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 1: olden days, but no one would imagine doing that in 561 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: my era. It's a kind of vandalization of an object 562 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: that you certainly can't do without enormous thought, and I 563 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: would think, consultation with lots of other people. We'll be 564 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:18,320 Speaker 1: right back. Sometimes Anne seemed drawn by the sheer challenge 565 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: of a newly arrived work. Someone might come off the 566 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: street with a calder and a story, recalls one staffer, 567 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,200 Speaker 1: it was my father's and he passed away. I'm trying 568 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 1: to sell it. Inevitably, the owner didn't want to wait 569 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: long enough to put the calder up for auction. The 570 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 1: provenance sounded sketchy, but Anne went upstairs where the finances 571 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: were done, and ended up buying it for cash. The 572 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: staffer said, I was thinking, either there's something wrong, or 573 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,399 Speaker 1: you're taking this painting and we'll sell it for two 574 00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,360 Speaker 1: or three times the amount. I was. Seeing this for 575 00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 1: the first time. It was an indication to me. Over 576 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: the next year or two, other deep in corn works 577 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: on paper came in from Glyphra Rosales. Like the first ones, 578 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: they were ocean park abstracts, but they were different in 579 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: one sense. According to Rosales, they came from the the 580 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: Honda Gallery in Madrid, indicated by the seemingly well worn 581 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 1: label on the back of each one. The Deep in 582 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: Corn families doubts about those first two drawings seemed to 583 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 1: have worried and Friedman to she had written a letter 584 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: to Rosalie asking for at least some provenance on the 585 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 1: newly surfaced the Honda Gallery ocean parks. Leslie Feeley recalls 586 00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: and searches for provenance. She would be in touch with 587 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,040 Speaker 1: people who used to work at the National Gallery, like 588 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,839 Speaker 1: a Carmen. I mean, she tried to find names that 589 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:56,479 Speaker 1: would fool people, and she lied and lied and made 590 00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: up these fake provenances. I believe from the beginning she 591 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: knew these were fixed, they had no provenances. She made 592 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:13,160 Speaker 1: up provenances every day. The Honda Gallery works troubled the 593 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: deep and Corn family as well. We began looking up 594 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: the Handy Gallery and it all seemed very strange because 595 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 1: all the work that they had handled. You can't talk 596 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: to anybody, they're all dead. But the works that they 597 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: did handle when they were in existence, were very, very 598 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 1: different from the work that my father did, things like 599 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:39,799 Speaker 1: Picasso and some of the earlier abstract people. I just 600 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 1: remember thinking, Wow, that just seems odd. Apparently Rosalis had 601 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,080 Speaker 1: made some calls and came up with provenance for the 602 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:55,280 Speaker 1: Honda Gallery. Deepen corns. The key figure was a Spanish 603 00:41:55,360 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: restaurant owner named Cesario Fontanella. Supposedly, he told Rosalez that 604 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: he had owned a restaurant called Taverna says Are on 605 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,760 Speaker 1: Fleming Street, near Madrid's Castellana Plaza from the late nineteen 606 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:14,400 Speaker 1: seventies until nineteen eighty five. The Taverna Cesar had been 607 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: a hangout for artists. Everyone from Francis Bacon to Andy 608 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 1: Warhol had frequented the place, or so Rosalez heard. Nearby 609 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: was the Jande Gallery, said Clario Fontenella, where many of 610 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,759 Speaker 1: those artists had shown. Fernando Vijande would often bring them 611 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,160 Speaker 1: over to the Taverna Cesar. Deep and Corn had been 612 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 1: one of the regulars, and in a time honored artistic tradition, 613 00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 1: had often paid off his bar bills with art or 614 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 1: traded his own art. The nimble says our Fontenelle had 615 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,520 Speaker 1: procured his deepon Corns that way, and kept them for 616 00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,919 Speaker 1: all those intervening years, he said, and was selling them 617 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 1: only now after deepin Corne's death. It was a fine story, 618 00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:01,040 Speaker 1: except that Rodrigo Vijande, the late gallery owner's son, found 619 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:06,240 Speaker 1: it preposterous. First, he had never heard of the Tavernas Caesar. 620 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 1: He would have known it well if his father patronized it. 621 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: He would have known which artists hung out there, too, 622 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 1: because Rodrico had helped run the gallery with his father 623 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 1: and knew its artists upon his father's death. In the 624 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:27,439 Speaker 1: most off key detail of Caesar Fontendles's story was the 625 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: Tavernas address. Even if it had existed, it wouldn't have 626 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,240 Speaker 1: been a hangout for artists from the the Honda Gallery 627 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,239 Speaker 1: because it's supposed address on Fleming Street was two or 628 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,520 Speaker 1: three miles from the gallery. Both galleries that my father 629 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,719 Speaker 1: owned in Madrid were right where he lived, in front 630 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 1: of his house on Nunez de Balboa in the center 631 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:55,839 Speaker 1: of Madrid, Rodrico explained moreover, of the Hondai didn't drive, that, 632 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,800 Speaker 1: declared his son Rodrigo, was why he lived some fifty 633 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 1: yards from his galleries at first, and Freeman may have 634 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 1: believed the the Honda Gallery story. Certainly she wanted to 635 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:12,680 Speaker 1: believe it. If it was true, it might validate the 636 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:17,440 Speaker 1: half dozen other such ocean parks that Rosalis was bringing 637 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,920 Speaker 1: in one by one. With their now distinctive the Honda 638 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: Gallery labels had cast a glow of authenticity over all 639 00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:30,600 Speaker 1: the ocean park, Deepen Corns and over Glafira Rosalee herself. 640 00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:36,520 Speaker 1: But a label isn't provenance. It's just a label. If 641 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,880 Speaker 1: the label had been part of a paper trail of ownership, 642 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: the result would have been picture perfect provenance. In this case, 643 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:48,279 Speaker 1: the trail petered out as soon as it began. What 644 00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,160 Speaker 1: was it fair to say that every time you saw 645 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,440 Speaker 1: a deep in Corn ocean park that had a label 646 00:44:55,480 --> 00:45:02,080 Speaker 1: on back, that it was almost certainly fake. I think 647 00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:07,200 Speaker 1: one could say that, Yes, she swears that she didn't know, 648 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:13,040 Speaker 1: which seems hard to believe. That's k Noodler artist Michael 649 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:17,480 Speaker 1: David Again, should she have known? Yeah? And is this 650 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:27,960 Speaker 1: business fraud with people cutting corners with fraud? Absolutely? And 651 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,880 Speaker 1: Friedman had her Deepened Corns with the Honda Gallery labels, 652 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,440 Speaker 1: but she pressed Rosalees for more proof of the works 653 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:40,440 Speaker 1: provenance If she wasn't going to uncover an actual paper trail, 654 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,960 Speaker 1: she could do the next best thing. She could find 655 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,399 Speaker 1: experts on the painters whose works were coming in from 656 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 1: Mr x Jr. Already she had done that with Chris Rothko, 657 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:56,840 Speaker 1: the late artist's son. Since then another Rothko expert, David 658 00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 1: and Pam, had praised it too, and would do her 659 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 1: part seeking out more art world academics who might inspect 660 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,480 Speaker 1: the paintings as they came in and find that they 661 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:12,080 Speaker 1: were true. But couldn't Lafa do something to fill in 662 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,280 Speaker 1: the story of the ex family and arranged for Anne 663 00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,640 Speaker 1: to meet Mr x Jr. At last, not yet, Rosavas 664 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:25,560 Speaker 1: deflected soon, she felt soon. But then came the most 665 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: astonishing accident, one that seemed to prove beyond doubt that 666 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 1: Mr X and his paintings were real after all. In 667 00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:41,040 Speaker 1: their conversations, Lafra and Anne often talked about art of 668 00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,799 Speaker 1: the post war period. Lafia knew a lot enough to 669 00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,600 Speaker 1: impress Anne, and the two women share their favorite artists, 670 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 1: one of whom was Clifford. Still in most cases, Glafira 671 00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:58,080 Speaker 1: would go through Mr X's collection searching for a painting 672 00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,920 Speaker 1: by one of the artists and had spoken of with 673 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:08,600 Speaker 1: great admiration. Miraculously Glafira would find one. Glafira Rosales told 674 00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:14,040 Speaker 1: investigators that the galleries would often ask her for specific 675 00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 1: things without asking many questions where it came from. So 676 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:20,960 Speaker 1: think about this. You are a gallery and you are 677 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:25,759 Speaker 1: buying painting after painting from this woman from Mexico who 678 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:30,000 Speaker 1: sess was representing a famous collector. So then, as a 679 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,319 Speaker 1: gallery owner, I turned to her and say, so do 680 00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,239 Speaker 1: you think he might happen to have some mother will? 681 00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,320 Speaker 1: And then a few weeks later she comes with a 682 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,279 Speaker 1: mother will. I mean, what is really the likelihood that 683 00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:46,680 Speaker 1: this would happen, And would then ask her to send 684 00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:50,400 Speaker 1: an image of the work if they'd met with her approval, 685 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:55,280 Speaker 1: and would ask to bring the painting in. A standard 686 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,640 Speaker 1: routine was followed. The painting was put in the trunk 687 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:03,400 Speaker 1: of Mr X Junior's car and transported to a photographer's studio. 688 00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,640 Speaker 1: Pictures were duly taken and the painting was then put 689 00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,880 Speaker 1: back in the trunk of the car. The plan, as usual, 690 00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:13,799 Speaker 1: was to send the transparencies once they came back from 691 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:18,279 Speaker 1: the studio to Ann at the Knoedler and would then 692 00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,359 Speaker 1: decide if the painting met with her approval. Only then 693 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:25,480 Speaker 1: would the painting be sent to the gallery. Rosalis soon 694 00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:30,200 Speaker 1: called Freedman with terrible news while the driver was bringing 695 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:34,520 Speaker 1: Mr X's Clifford Still painting from the photographer's studio. She 696 00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,719 Speaker 1: said there had been an accident. The car had a 697 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,560 Speaker 1: rear engine and the engine had caught fire. The painting 698 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:46,520 Speaker 1: was nearly destroyed, all but a fragment. When she got 699 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:50,320 Speaker 1: over her shock and told Rosalee to bring her the fragment, 700 00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:54,160 Speaker 1: the painting was indeed badly burned. It would have been 701 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:58,640 Speaker 1: two and a half feet by three feet, Freedman said later. Indeed, 702 00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:02,160 Speaker 1: nearly all of the paintings Rosalis would bring were of 703 00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:06,600 Speaker 1: medium scale. To Anne, it made absolute sense that the 704 00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,879 Speaker 1: painting had been stored in the trunk, and was fascinated 705 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,319 Speaker 1: with the fragment, and more so with the transparency that 706 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:19,160 Speaker 1: accompanied it. The transparency, after all, showed the whole painting 707 00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:22,879 Speaker 1: before it was consumed by fire. On the drive back 708 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:27,120 Speaker 1: to Mr X Junior's house, you could see the whole thing, 709 00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,040 Speaker 1: and with a fragment you can analyze the front and 710 00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,360 Speaker 1: back differently. You can do a touch and feel about it. 711 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:38,040 Speaker 1: And later said later in telling that story and would 712 00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,440 Speaker 1: beam with triumph. Quote would a con artist burn the 713 00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:43,719 Speaker 1: painting and then save a fragment so it could be 714 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:48,279 Speaker 1: forensically examined if the painting wasn't real, wouldn't that make 715 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:54,920 Speaker 1: it obvious? Unquote? Everything checked out and declared, including that 716 00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,400 Speaker 1: in one of the pigments that Clifford still used in 717 00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:01,920 Speaker 1: many paintings, there's an oxidation that had proof positive the 718 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,320 Speaker 1: pigment proved the painting was real, or so felt Anne 719 00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:10,400 Speaker 1: as for the burned fragment and kept it as proof 720 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,520 Speaker 1: that the first Clifford still Mr. X Junior had sold 721 00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:18,000 Speaker 1: her had been real as well. One staff are recalled 722 00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,520 Speaker 1: that the fragment was kept in a flat white portfolio. 723 00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:25,160 Speaker 1: You could see the burn marks on the edges. It 724 00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:34,200 Speaker 1: was an friedman's own shroud of Turin conveniently, Mr x Jr. 725 00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:38,040 Speaker 1: Managed to find another Clifford still in storage and sent 726 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:42,800 Speaker 1: it along and in turn took it to the annual 727 00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:46,880 Speaker 1: Art Dealers Association of America show at the New York Armory. 728 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,880 Speaker 1: Bill Ruben came by in a wheelchair and said of 729 00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:54,040 Speaker 1: the famous director of the Museum of Modern Art and 730 00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:58,160 Speaker 1: brother of the Nler's former director, Larry Reuben whom Anne 731 00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:02,520 Speaker 1: had dispatched from the Notler. According to Freedman, Bill Reuben 732 00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,520 Speaker 1: looked hard at the Clifford still and said, yes, that's 733 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:10,319 Speaker 1: a cliff painting. I turned it around for him and 734 00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:15,600 Speaker 1: he confirmed that it was a Clifford Still painting. Bill 735 00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:20,080 Speaker 1: Ruben had been duped by the Rosava's ring too. In reality, 736 00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:23,600 Speaker 1: none of the details in as story of the burned 737 00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:28,400 Speaker 1: Clifford Still painting were true. Now we know no fire 738 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:32,440 Speaker 1: really happened, right did it did? Happened? Actually, Carlos was 739 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:35,879 Speaker 1: preparing the pieces and he was treating them with her 740 00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:42,200 Speaker 1: dryers and following them in coal and hot temperatures, so 741 00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:46,279 Speaker 1: that one got burned because he forgot to turn the 742 00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:49,200 Speaker 1: hair dryer of, and of course it went in flames. 743 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:54,040 Speaker 1: And now Anne is waiting for the piece. And what 744 00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:57,440 Speaker 1: is this planation I'm going to give Carlos Tom It 745 00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:01,680 Speaker 1: will tell them this. I want people to know that 746 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,400 Speaker 1: I have never talked to nobody. I have never been 747 00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:08,520 Speaker 1: interviewed about my life or about this case except for 748 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:14,320 Speaker 1: the government of course. More from Glafira Rosale's herself next 749 00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:21,160 Speaker 1: time on art fraud. You have the cool, clear eyes 750 00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:28,200 Speaker 1: of a seeker of wisdom and truth. Yet there's that 751 00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:39,279 Speaker 1: bob turned chin and the grin of impetuous youth. Believe 752 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:50,000 Speaker 1: you hard, Believeving you. Art Fraud is brought to you 753 00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:54,920 Speaker 1: by I Heart Radio and Cavalry Audio. Our executive producers 754 00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:59,279 Speaker 1: are Matt del Piano, Keegan Rosenberger, Andy Turner, myself, and 755 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,840 Speaker 1: Michael Ayerson. We're produced by Brandon Morgan and Zach McNeice. 756 00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:08,680 Speaker 1: Zach also edited and mixed this episode. Lindsay Hoffman is 757 00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:15,279 Speaker 1: our managing producer. How a writer is Michael Schneyerson. I 758 00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:23,520 Speaker 1: believe you and my faith and my fallow my