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Speaker 1: Body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. A few years ago,

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Speaker 1: I was at a party, was sitting around a pool

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Speaker 1: actually down in New Orleans. I was no longer working

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Speaker 1: with a corner down there, since moved on to the

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Speaker 1: Medical Examiner. But it was a party of a group

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Speaker 1: of us that had gotten together to create national standards

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Speaker 1: for medical legal death investigators. And we were very informal gathering.

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Speaker 1: We've been working really hard on this program for a

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Speaker 1: couple of years and it was finally coming to a conclusion.

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Speaker 1: We were hanging out, having a few beers. One of

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Speaker 1: the gentlemen that was there, I'd become pretty good friends

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Speaker 1: with him, and he was from Colorado. As a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, he worked at the Denver Corner's office at

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Speaker 1: the time. He was an interesting fellow because he had

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Speaker 1: been a homicide detective in Denver, and prior to that,

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Speaker 1: he had been a beat cop in Denver, which is

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Speaker 1: how you kind of get your start before you make

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Speaker 1: it into the homicide bureau. Overarching all of that, my

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Speaker 1: friend had been a corman in the Navy, a combat

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Speaker 1: corman that was assigned to a Marine Corps rifle company

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Speaker 1: during Vietnam, and he had done several tours as in

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Speaker 1: Navy Corman. You know, in the Marine Corps, they refer

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Speaker 1: to them as doc and they are held in very

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Speaker 1: high esteem because they take care of these marines. My

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Speaker 1: friend told me a story that night that I'll never forget.

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Speaker 1: When the Columbine massacre took place, it was not in Denver,

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Speaker 1: it was in a location that didn't have the same

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Speaker 1: level of resources. And what he told me was that

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Speaker 1: he got summoned to that scene to lend a hand.

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Speaker 1: And I remember sitting there and him looking at me

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Speaker 1: and telling me out of everything that he had seen

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Speaker 1: in his career with a coroner's office in Denver, with

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Speaker 1: a homicide bureau in Denver, and as a beat cop

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Speaker 1: there in that major city, nothing scarred him as deeply

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Speaker 1: as Kalmba. And the way he described it, you said

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Speaker 1: that when you walk in, you don't expect to see

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Speaker 1: this level of violence in a public school. Today, we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about what it's like to be inside

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Speaker 1: the tape on a mass homicide. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks with Me. Is my friend Dave

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Speaker 1: Mac's a senior crime reporter with Crime Online with Nancy

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Speaker 1: Grace David pitched you this idea about this topic, mass shootings.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you were surprised when I'll pitch

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Speaker 1: it to you, but right now, kind of in the

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Speaker 1: environment that we're in, you know, you hear a lot

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Speaker 1: in the news media about social dynamics and causality and

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Speaker 1: all those sort of things, and there's one piece that's

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Speaker 1: kind of missing that not too many people kind of explore,

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Speaker 1: and that's what's it like to be on the scene

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Speaker 1: of a mass shooting, a mass fatality event. What's that like?

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Speaker 1: And I thought that maybe today we could just kind

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Speaker 1: of leisurely have a discussion and allow me to give

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Speaker 1: an insight into this.

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Speaker 2: When you first told me about it, you know, I

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Speaker 2: immediately thought school shootings, because that's what most of us

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Speaker 2: tend to think about. When you think of mass shooting,

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Speaker 2: you think school. But in reality, mass shootings encompass a

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Speaker 2: whole lot more than school shootings. But you're right, I

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Speaker 2: don't think I've ever been able to get over the

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Speaker 2: fence of what's it like when you are on the

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Speaker 2: scene of multiple deaths and the injured are already gone,

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Speaker 2: they've been injured, but they're at the hospital or they're

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Speaker 2: being treated or what have you. But what do you

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Speaker 2: do when you're opening the door on something that you

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Speaker 2: only see in movies or on the battlefield you mentioned

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Speaker 2: Columbine death and destruction is all around. I don't know

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Speaker 2: how you can be taught to get ready to process that.

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Speaker 2: After Sandy Hook, there was a guy there, h Wayne Carver,

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Speaker 2: the third was the former Connecticut Chief Medical Examiner. His

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Speaker 2: office examined the bodies of the victims, and when he

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Speaker 2: gave his press conference, he was under a lot of

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Speaker 2: scrutiny because of some of the things that he said

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Speaker 2: and the way that he said them. And all I

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Speaker 2: can think of is how impacted you would be as

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Speaker 2: a human being to walk into this type of destruction

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Speaker 2: and may him and try to determine what happened to

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Speaker 2: the bodies. They're all different, they're all wounded differently, maybe

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Speaker 2: by the same weapon, but they've all got different injuries.

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Speaker 2: How do you even begin?

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Speaker 1: It is quite the spectacle. Over my career, I work

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Speaker 1: many mass shootings, and you have to frame this very

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Speaker 1: carefully because when people think that we've got a mass

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Speaker 1: shooting event, most people think, you know, you have numbers,

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Speaker 1: Like if you look at Vegas, for instance, where you're

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Speaker 1: up in the double digits of fatalities, and that's not

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Speaker 1: necessarily how a mass fatality or mass shooting event is defined.

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Speaker 1: Some folks have said that requires four or more and

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Speaker 1: never understand how they come to those numbers. This is

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Speaker 1: a thing depending upon where you are. One thing that

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Speaker 1: might be a walk in the park for one department

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Speaker 1: or agency, say a normal day, might be a disaster

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Speaker 1: for say a smaller jurisdiction that's having to deal with

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Speaker 1: multiple fatalities at one time, so that number might be

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Speaker 1: lower in their estimation. The number that they kind of

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Speaker 1: settle on.

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Speaker 2: Is for I always thought of a mass shootings just

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Speaker 2: indiscriminate killing of a group of people in one location.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I guess, I guess you could put it

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Speaker 1: that way, but you'll actually have these mass shooting events

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Speaker 1: where people will migrate around. I was part of the

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Speaker 1: investigation in what became known as the Buckhead shooting or

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Speaker 1: the Buckhead massacre in Atlanta. I think it was ninety nine,

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Speaker 1: where you had Mark Barton that had left multiple locations,

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Speaker 1: had moved from multiple locations, and had started off by

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Speaker 1: killing his family. I forgot about that one, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: killed his family in an adjacent county, his wife and

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Speaker 1: his two children, and then went to a day trading center.

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Speaker 1: If nobody knows what that is. It's a place before

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Speaker 1: the internet was at the status that it is now,

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Speaker 1: where you would go in and you would do day

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Speaker 1: trading with stock market on these terminals. You know that

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Speaker 1: you would go in and pay a few You don't

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Speaker 1: expect to walk into an office park and see people.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that comes to mind is a

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Speaker 1: woman lying face down in a business suit on the

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Speaker 1: floor with a bullet hole in the back of her

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Speaker 1: jacket and her shoes pushed over to the side. You

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Speaker 1: know how people take their shoes off at their desk.

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Speaker 1: You know, you begin to put that together. You know,

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Speaker 1: you talked about battlefield and battlefield in terms of like

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Speaker 1: you think back to the Civil War where we would

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Speaker 1: just have thousands of people that were killed. It's not

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Speaker 1: that you normalize that, but it's a battlefield. You're in

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Speaker 1: the midst of a war. When you walk into an

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Speaker 1: environment like a bank or school or this has occurred

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Speaker 1: some kind of business, it's out there and you have

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Speaker 1: people deceased in these environments. It's kind of hard to

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Speaker 1: understand it. It's certainly difficult, I think for any normal

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Speaker 1: human to process mentally. You know what you're taking in,

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Speaker 1: how do you observe it? How do you make this

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Speaker 1: make sense in your mind because it's not necessarily going

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Speaker 1: to make sense, and then how do you go about

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Speaker 1: processing seeing itself. That's where these cases are train wrecked

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Speaker 1: in certain circumstances where you have this kind of this

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Speaker 1: organization that takes place or organization that does not take

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Speaker 1: place beforehand. You're trying to compartmentalize everything at a scene

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Speaker 1: so that you can work your way through it. It's not

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Speaker 1: like you have one investigator that goes through and processes

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Speaker 1: one body. You have teams that generally come in, and

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Speaker 1: when you have this number of bodies that are there,

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Speaker 1: you'll have these teams that are assembled outside the tape.

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Speaker 1: You have to have a plan before you go under

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Speaker 1: the tape, because if you don't, it's total and complete chaos.

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Speaker 1: You have to systematically stand back and take a high

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Speaker 1: altitude view of what you're walking into once the police

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Speaker 1: have initially walked through, because this is the way you

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Speaker 1: kind of break it down. You begin to think about

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Speaker 1: when you have one of these events that occurs. First off,

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Speaker 1: you're in life saving mode. You're in life saving mode.

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Speaker 1: So when the first responders roll up there, they take

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Speaker 1: the measure of what's going on, who is deceased, who

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Speaker 1: still has life, and you begin to triage those people

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Speaker 1: as best you can and get them out the door

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Speaker 1: or get them off of the scene so that they

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Speaker 1: can be saved. It's at that point in time you

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Speaker 1: begin to kind of lay out the features of what

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Speaker 1: you see before you. And that's why the people that

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Speaker 1: first roll up at a scene, and this applies to

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Speaker 1: any kind of death scene, the most valuable bit of

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Speaker 1: information that you're ever going to get from a death

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Speaker 1: scene is that person that arrived at first. That's why

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Speaker 1: it's so important. Like certain people that will dismiss young

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Speaker 1: patrol officers and what they have to say at a scene,

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Speaker 1: and that that's the worst possible thing you can do.

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Speaker 1: You want to get that person, sequester them, sit them

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Speaker 1: down and say what did you see, and get it

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Speaker 1: as soon as you possibly can, that first bit of

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Speaker 1: valuable information if you're processing it like a crime scene,

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Speaker 1: at that moment time where you begin to try to

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Speaker 1: understand where all of the bodies are located, what is

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Speaker 1: the floor plan, if it's within a building, what does

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Speaker 1: this look like? How we're going to make it through

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Speaker 1: each one of these until we complete the scene. And

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Speaker 1: you have to treat these as if it is a

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Speaker 1: singular homicide that took place in a singular, freestanding structure.

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Speaker 1: Do you see I mean, if you don't, then, first off,

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Speaker 1: at a I guess a philosophical standpoint, you're being very dismissive.

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Speaker 2: So you mean when you come in, you're talking about

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Speaker 2: this person was murdered in this spot, and you start

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Speaker 2: there as and you treat it as a singular event.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you have to, and you process it that way,

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Speaker 1: and you might not know who they are. Just imagine

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Speaker 1: if you will, Particularly when it comes to schools. Kids normally,

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Speaker 1: if you're dealing with like an elementary school, don't have

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Speaker 1: a wallet in their back pocket. I famously said on

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Speaker 1: several occasions, and I teach this all the time. I

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Speaker 1: never trust government ideas anyway, but it's a place to

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Speaker 1: start and a little aside. I was actually at a

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Speaker 1: conference one time where I was listening to one of

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Speaker 1: the FBI technicians that work to Oklahoma City bombing. It

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Speaker 1: may have been one of the most heartbreaking things I've

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Speaker 1: ever heard. And I saw this man actually begin to

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Speaker 1: cry on stage in front of a big audience, and

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Speaker 1: you say, well, now, why would he do that? Well,

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Speaker 1: there were multiple deaths obviously at the Murrow building there

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Speaker 1: in Oklahoma City. But do you remember, Dave, they had.

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Speaker 2: That daycare there, I do, at the very bottom.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, at the very bottom. I can't remember which is

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Speaker 1: the second or third floor, And it was almost immediately

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Speaker 1: adjacent to essentially where the bomb blasts initiated within that vehicle. Well,

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Speaker 1: the bodies of those children were, to say the very

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Speaker 1: least particulate. You might have a disassociated hand or finger

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Speaker 1: or whatever that you had to roll a print off of. Well,

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Speaker 1: just because you roll a print to get somebody identified

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Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean that they have a print record. And

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Speaker 1: what was so just cut wretching to listen to this

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Speaker 1: man talk about and still to this day it just

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Speaker 1: stirs me up inside when I think about it. He said,

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Speaker 1: because these children would not have a print record anywhere.

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Speaker 1: They would have to go to the homes of these

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Speaker 1: children that they suspected were or they're in that room,

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Speaker 1: go into their playrooms and their nurseries and dust for

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Speaker 1: latent prints and lift a print at the scene, take

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Speaker 1: that print and compare it to what they had at

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Speaker 1: the State Medical Examiner's office Oklahoma City. Their state Medical

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Speaker 1: examiner there did a fantastic job where they had a

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Speaker 1: more facility all set up and they were having they

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Speaker 1: had stations, and you do this lots of times with

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Speaker 1: mass futalities, in particular plane accents and things like that,

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Speaker 1: you have multiple stations that the remains have to pass through.

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Speaker 1: They'll go through anthropology, odentology, which is dentistry, fingerprint X ray,

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Speaker 1: you know, until they finally make it to the medical examiner,

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Speaker 1: who you know, will perform an autopsy. That story that

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Speaker 1: he told though, just trying to determine who they are,

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Speaker 1: and that's stuff that you I think that most people

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Speaker 1: don't think about. It's such a hill to climb, just

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Speaker 1: basic things like identification, because when you walk in cold

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Speaker 1: to a mass fatality event or a mass shooting event,

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Speaker 1: there's no guarantee that you're going to know, first off,

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Speaker 1: who was in that space. Two events that have occurred

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Speaker 1: at the time of this taping that are desperately different.

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Speaker 1: We had the mass shooting event that took place at

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Speaker 1: school at the Covenant School in Nashville. Well, that's a

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Speaker 1: very contained environment where you have accountability relative to the

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Speaker 1: students that would be there in the staff, you have

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Speaker 1: an expectation that they would be there. But you get

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Speaker 1: to a public space like a bank and a shooting

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Speaker 1: takes place, Well, you don't know who's going to be

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Speaker 1: walking into the lobby of a bank at any given time,

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Speaker 1: who's there before opening, who has access to that environment?

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Speaker 1: And then kick it up another notch. I go back

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Speaker 1: to Vegas. All of those people that were at that concert,

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Speaker 1: that were just standing there listening to the music that

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Speaker 1: was being played on the stage. How do you know

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Speaker 1: at any given time who's in that audience. It's a

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Speaker 1: difficult thing to assess. And we haven't even talked about

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Speaker 1: we haven't even talked about assessment of injuries, the location

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Speaker 1: that they were found relative to everybody else, all of

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Speaker 1: those things. So it's almost like when you're working one

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Speaker 1: of these things, everything that you do as a death investigator,

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Speaker 1: the difficulty increases.

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Speaker 2: That never occurred to me. Nineteen children on the second

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Speaker 2: floor at Mura and they had to identify fingers. I

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Speaker 2: didn't even think about that. Yeah, two weeks ago. A

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Speaker 2: documentary being filmed about the Palm Sunday tornado in Piedmont. Well,

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Speaker 2: I'm one of the people they're using, because you know,

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Speaker 2: I was in it, and they talked about that, you know,

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Speaker 2: children that were killed there. My father in law at

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Speaker 2: the time, they thought I was wrong when I put Andrew,

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Speaker 2: my son on the ambulance with a fracture's skull. I

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Speaker 2: put him on the ambulance. Well, they thought, because everybody

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Speaker 2: around me was dead where we were in the church,

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Speaker 2: that I was mistaken. And because he was a kindergartener

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Speaker 2: and the other kindergarteners were all dead, they sent my

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Speaker 2: father in law over to this area of a carport

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Speaker 2: where they had taken all the kindergarteners, the dead ones,

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Speaker 2: and they had laid them out and covered them with

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Speaker 2: a blanket. And they took my father in law over

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Speaker 2: there and pulled the blanket back to have him identify Andrew.

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Speaker 2: And so he had to look at all these five

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Speaker 2: year olds looking for his grandson. That's got to be

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Speaker 2: more powerful and traumatic than just about anything. Of course,

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Speaker 2: Andrew wasn't there, but I carried that with me.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's horrible, It truly is to see those things

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Speaker 1: that many cannot take the measure of is something as

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Speaker 1: a death investigator, I don't know that I ever got

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Speaker 1: used to it, even after all of those years. And

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Speaker 1: when people ask me to explain that I have troublesometoms,

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Speaker 1: I have trouble kind of expressing that. I think that

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Speaker 1: there are people that would they would ask as it

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Speaker 1: applies to the dead. And because I was around the

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Speaker 1: dead so much, I said, were you ever afraid of

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Speaker 1: the dead? And Dave, I got to tell you, I'm

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Speaker 1: never afraid of the dead. I feel very safe and

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Speaker 1: secure with the dead. It's the living that I fear.

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Speaker 2: When we were talking about this, and sometimes the line

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Speaker 2: will get blurred between a mass casualty event versus a

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Speaker 2: mass shooting event, because in the case of a mass

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Speaker 2: shooting event, oftentimes the perpetrator of the crime has planned

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Speaker 2: other mayhem to go along and coincide with it, oftentimes

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Speaker 2: to pick off the first responders to cause additional damage.

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Speaker 2: So when you show up at an event where you

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Speaker 2: have to try to figure out what took place, and

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Speaker 2: you've got victims, and how do you know the scenes clear?

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Speaker 2: How do you know that there's not something over here

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Speaker 2: in this corner that might be covered up, but it's

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Speaker 2: going to explode. How do you know that.

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Speaker 1: The bigger the area, there's a I guess there's a

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Speaker 1: for me, and I'm speaking for me, not anybody else.

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Speaker 1: It was always in the back of my mind that

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Speaker 1: this area where the shooting took place was targeted for

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Speaker 1: a reason. So does that mean that the initial event,

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Speaker 1: as horrific as it was, was it set up in

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Speaker 1: order to draw other people in? And we've seen this,

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Speaker 1: and this has preached to you when you're learning to

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Speaker 1: first off secure scenes and then when you're also learning

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Speaker 1: to process scenes that there if you're talking about events, say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, if there is an explosive device, that there

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Speaker 1: could be what they referred to as secondary devices. We

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Speaker 1: saw this happen with Eric Rudolph and clinic bombings. Abortion

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Speaker 1: clinic bombings where I think there was one where there

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Speaker 1: was a bomb that initially went off, and then when

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Speaker 1: the responders arrived there, there was another one that went

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Speaker 1: off that was adjacent or in a dumpster. And so

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Speaker 1: you're always thinking about that the very military way of

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Speaker 1: looking at things. If you can draw an initial group

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Speaker 1: of people in and do great harm to them, you're

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Speaker 1: going to draw other people there to begin to assess

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Speaker 1: the scene, and they very well might be the target.

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Speaker 1: So you have that I think working in the back

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Speaker 1: of your mind. At least I did. And again I

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Speaker 1: can't speak for everybody that does this. Some people will say, well,

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Speaker 1: I just put it out of my mind and I

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Speaker 1: go ahead and do what I have to do. You

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Speaker 1: can say that, and that's fine if you choose to

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Speaker 1: say that, But there's always that specter that exists because

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Speaker 1: what you're seeing before you and just kind of understand

328
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Speaker 1: this what you're seeing before you as you compare it.

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Speaker 1: I think in your mind as a death investigator, compared

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Speaker 1: it to say a singular shooting that has taken place

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Speaker 1: that you maybe you worked recently where you had a

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Speaker 1: dry by shooting, or you had somebody that was killed

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Speaker 1: in a domestic dispute. They say that there you know

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Speaker 1: that evil is evil, but there are degrees to what

335
00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,560
Speaker 1: havoc there exists, And when you see the depths that

336
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Speaker 1: some people will go to the expansiveness of it, you

337
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Speaker 1: really think, is there something else here? Is there something

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Speaker 1: else that could wind up doing you harm? And for me,

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Speaker 1: I found myself as a person that would process a

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Speaker 1: scene to be greatly distracted by it. The Buckhead shooting

341
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Speaker 1: that I was involved with in Atlanta in ninety nine,

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Speaker 1: we had what was called the Adamsville masker that had

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Speaker 1: just taken place the week before Dave the week before,

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Speaker 1: and we had I know, I'm going to get the

345
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Speaker 1: number wrong. It was either seven or eight people killed

346
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Speaker 1: in that event, literally the week before the buck had

347
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Speaker 1: and you never heard about it. And I was physically

348
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Speaker 1: there in this home that was maybe eleven hundred square feet.

349
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Speaker 1: You're having to process and there was so much blood

350
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Speaker 1: in the scene that I actually fell down. I fell down.

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Speaker 1: I was wearing a tiebek suit and I actually slipped

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Speaker 1: and fell in the blood. And there was another one

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Speaker 1: of my colleagues that actually pulled a muscle because they

354
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:16,359
Speaker 1: slipped in blood and pulled like a their hamstring. The

355
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Speaker 1: floor was just covered. But you're having to take your

356
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Speaker 1: time to work your way through. That's very confined, it's

357
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Speaker 1: very claustrophobic. We had people that had been killed. And

358
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Speaker 1: this is the thing about it. When you go to

359
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Speaker 1: interpret one of these things, you try to determine the sequencing,

360
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Speaker 1: which is difficult to do many times. But I'll never forget.

361
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Speaker 1: There was a young girl in the Adamsfield case, I

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Speaker 1: think she was fourteen, and she was laying in a

363
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Speaker 1: single sized bed, face down, had her pajamas on, and

364
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Speaker 1: she had a perfect bullet hole right between her shoulder blades,

365
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Speaker 1: and she died in that position as she was sleeping.

366
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Speaker 1: And then people scattered. There was an awareness that something

367
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Speaker 1: was going on in the home at that moment. You

368
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Speaker 1: had children that were dead in the hallway. You had

369
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Speaker 1: one child that had taken refuge in a closet. The

370
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Speaker 1: person put the gun inside the closet and just began

371
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Speaker 1: to fire into the closet and kill them there. And

372
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Speaker 1: so the volume of trauma and the volume of blood

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Speaker 1: that was spilled in this environment made it very difficult

374
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Speaker 1: to process the scene. For one, because you had this

375
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Speaker 1: commingling of body fluids. The bodies were lying in close

376
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Speaker 1: proximity to one another, so to process them individually, to

377
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Speaker 1: try to determine sequencing in this confined space, that made

378
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Speaker 1: it very difficult to do. When you're working these it's

379
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Speaker 1: a herculean task to take on more than two of

380
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Speaker 1: these victims. As an investigator, you have limits intellectually to

381
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Speaker 1: what you can kind of handle at one moment in

382
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Speaker 1: time when you're attempting to assess the position that they're

383
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Speaker 1: in the status of their post mortem changes. And with Adamsville,

384
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Speaker 1: when that took place, it was hours before these bodies

385
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Speaker 1: were found. I think that there was a survivor, if

386
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Speaker 1: I remember correctly, He was like eleven years old and

387
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Speaker 1: emerged from that home and he had been shot in

388
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Speaker 1: the arm and made his way to a neighbor's house

389
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Speaker 1: several hours after all of this had occurred. So these

390
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 1: bodies had already started to go through changes at this point.

391
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Speaker 1: So that's something you're trying to get a handle on

392
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Speaker 1: as well. So there's a lot of moving parts to

393
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 1: it as an investigator to really remain focused on the

394
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 1: task at hand, as opposed to getting distracted by all

395
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Speaker 1: of the other things. It's easy to walk outside of

396
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 1: the scene to catch your breath or to get a

397
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,120
Speaker 1: drink of water because you're sweating to death in this environment.

398
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,400
Speaker 1: You're wearing a taiebek suit. And then you're taxed mentally

399
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 1: because you think that you're forgetting things and you look

400
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: out and on the street there's nothing but satellite trucks

401
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: that are out there. It doesn't it doesn't go unnoticed,

402
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: okay by those that are out there, And that's another

403
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 1: element to this. When you begin to work these cases,

404
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: you might not have a sense that you're in the

405
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: middle of the national news cycle as an investigator, but

406
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: you soon discover that there's evidence of it all around you.

407
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,239
Speaker 1: And I have to think that in my circumstance in

408
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Speaker 1: that two week period, the Adamsville event really kind of

409
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Speaker 1: I think in one way, prepared my office the personnel

410
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 1: there for what was to happen the next week with

411
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Speaker 1: buckhet shooting.

412
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Speaker 2: Well, let me ask you, because you've used it a

413
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Speaker 2: couple of different times, you've said, taivek suit. Is that

414
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 2: like a hazmat type suit?

415
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. It's one of these white suits. Some

416
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: people will refer to them as bunny suits. I guess

417
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: you have the white suit that you put on over

418
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: your regular clothing. It does a couple of things. It

419
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 1: protects you from this environment that you're going to be in.

420
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Speaker 1: Remember I've told you about slipping in blood, and that's

421
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 1: not the first time that's happened in my career. But

422
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: there was so much at that scene because it was

423
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 1: so heavily concentrated in those areas but it also protects

424
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: the scene from you. I mentioned my buddy Edmund Lecart

425
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: chronically on the show, and you know Edmond famously said

426
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 1: that every contact leaves a trace of anything that you

427
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: bring in from the outside will be deposited at this scene.

428
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 1: And you have If I have something in my vehicle

429
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: that's stuck to the sole of my shoe and I

430
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 1: walk into that scene, I'm going to introduce that item

431
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: in there, and you want to try to keep it

432
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: as pristine as you possibly can. Sometimes that's not possible,

433
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 1: but you try to do that as best you can.

434
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 2: You start tracking stuff into a crime scene like that

435
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 2: with all the blood around, you could really do damage

436
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 2: to the investigation.

437
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, you could. And again, when you're talking about a

438
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,639
Speaker 1: mass shooting or a mass fatality event, it's chaotic to

439
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: begin with, and you're going through these mental checklists to

440
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 1: make sure that you've got everything covered and that everybody

441
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 1: on the team is on the same sheet of music,

442
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 1: if you will. When you're working the scene, generally, the

443
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 1: individual teams are going to be made up of an

444
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: EMMY investigator, a homicide detective, a crime scene photographer, and

445
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: so you've got this three person team that will go

446
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:18,439
Speaker 1: in and process each body. Okay, now there might be

447
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: an overall lead detective that will put everything together in total.

448
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 1: From the police perspective, if you still have a living victim,

449
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: and in many of these cases where you have the

450
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,640
Speaker 1: mass shooting events, you'll have the shooter that will take

451
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: their own life, you're working a mass homicide slash suicide

452
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 1: many times, or the shooter has been taken out by

453
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: the police as well. Well, Now that's still a homicide

454
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 1: even though the police take them out. That's a homicide

455
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: because it's death at the hands of another. So you

456
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: have to process this thing as if it's an unknown.

457
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 2: So you have to identify everybody like that.

458
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you have to. You know, the specter of

459
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 1: the is always there. The specter of the prosecution and

460
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 1: the defense is always there. When I'm teaching, I teach

461
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 1: my students from this perspective, because they're college students. They've

462
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: never had any experience when you're processing a scene. When

463
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: you're working a scene, you behave as if there's a

464
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: twelve member jury at that crime scene with you and

465
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: they're watching everything that you do, and that if you

466
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 1: want to kick it up another level, pretend that there's

467
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 1: a defense attorney there watching everything that you do, so

468
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 1: everything has to be documented. Even when it's a mass

469
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 1: fatality event. Even even if you perceive that the person

470
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 1: responsible for this is now deceased, either at their own

471
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: hand or at the hand of the police officers, this

472
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 1: is still an active case. And it is an active case.

473
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: What I'm about to say, I'm not saying this from

474
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: a police standpoint. I'm saying this from a medical legal perspective.

475
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,719
Speaker 1: If it's a homicide and there's nobody to prosecute, okay,

476
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: the police will handle that there way. But for us,

477
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: just because you've got an event that's seemingly not something

478
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:11,119
Speaker 1: that is necessarily prosecutable for us, there are other considerations.

479
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: First off, we have to, like I said, determine who

480
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: these individuals are. And just because the shooter or the

481
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: alleged shooter is deceased, that doesn't mean that there's not

482
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 1: going to be something moving forward in the court. You

483
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: have a whole nother world that the medical legal side

484
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: of the house is attached to, and that's civil court.

485
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: And there are always civil things that arise out of

486
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: these mass shooting events, whether they're suing the parties responsible

487
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: for security or they're suing gun manufacture or whoever it is.

488
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: There will always be those questions. And if you don't

489
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: answer those questions at that moment in time, when you're

490
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: there to process the scene and then subsequently do the

491
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: examinations on these bodies, you'll never have that opportunity again.

492
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: Why is never sufficient? I've said this over and over

493
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: and I will say to my last breath. Why questions

494
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: will drive you to insanity, And when you have mass fatalities,

495
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: those why questions rise to the top. But for us,

496
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: in our world, in the world of forensics, why is insufficient?

497
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: We have to determine when, where, how, And trust me,

498
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: there's enough to explore with those for us, and the

499
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: whys can be left to the politicians and the sociologists

500
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: and the psychologist. But for us in forensics, it's those

501
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: other matters that concern us more.

502
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 2: For a long time, I've wondered why why these things

503
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: have to be so drawn out? For instance, if you

504
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 2: already know, oh, who did it? Okay, it's not even questionable.

505
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 2: This is the guy who did the shooting in the

506
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 2: case of last yesterday, Connor Sturgeon. We know Connor Sturgeon

507
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 2: walked into a bank where he worked and he shot people.

508
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 2: We know he's dead, So why do we now have

509
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 2: to go and figure all this out. We know he

510
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 2: shot people, we know that's why they're dead. So why

511
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 2: do we have to then go in and break it

512
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 2: all down like we don't know that?

513
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: Because it is I think just from a moral standpoint,

514
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,040
Speaker 1: it's a disservice to the family members. Pushing aside all

515
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: of the legal requirements. Okay, everything that's dictated by the

516
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 1: law for the medical legal community that we have to do.

517
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: These are homicide victims. We examine and process and investigate

518
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: homicides in a particular way. And the moment, and I

519
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: mean the moment that you deviate from that standard practice

520
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: is that is a moment in time when you find

521
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: yourself in the middle of a minefield. I'll give you

522
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: another example. When you have someone, say, for instances executed

523
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: by the state, Okay, they're on death row and execution

524
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: takes place, guess what they're going to be autopsy? People say, well,

525
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: what's the purpose of that? Well, what in the world

526
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: would you gain by doing an autopsy on a person

527
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: that has been executed where it was literally witnessed by

528
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: all of these people. Well, first off, it's prescribed by

529
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: law because this is an in custody death, and if

530
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: any questions arise in the future, and they always do,

531
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: you have to be prepared to answer those questions with

532
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: Connor Sturgeon. Right now, at this moment time, the authorities

533
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: are saying that he is responsible for this event, and

534
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,719
Speaker 1: he is now deceased. What if there's the off chance

535
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: that someone else may have had involvement, that person is

536
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: still living and breathing. I'm not saying that there are

537
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 1: I'm just saying that could arise, and if it does,

538
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: are you prepared to answer that question? Can you imagine

539
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: how foolish a medical examiner would appear if they said,

540
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: you know what, we know that this is a multiple homicide.

541
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: It was, according to the police, perpetrated by this individual.

542
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: There's no need to do the autopsies. Now, there is

543
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: a need to do the autopsies because if these questions

544
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 1: are not asked and answered at that moment, Tom, you'll

545
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: never have a chance to ask an answer.

546
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: Again, I've got a two parter for you that really

547
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 2: has been hanging on for a long time with me.

548
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 2: You've got a mass shooting you've examined it, and you

549
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 2: have X number of people that are now dead. Do

550
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 2: they all have to be autopsied? All of the victims?

551
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I understand this suspect in the case having

552
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: to be autopsied, but do all of these innocent victims

553
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: have to be autopsied? And part two of that is

554
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 2: what do you do if somebody has a religious problem

555
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: with an autopsy. There are some religions that don't want

556
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 2: that don't believe their body should be autopsy it goes

557
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 2: against their faith.

558
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: Well, the first answer, the first part of that question,

559
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: every person will be autopsy. I have distinct memories of

560
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: walking into an autopsy room where I've had a multiple

561
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: homicide and where family has been wiped out, for instance,

562
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 1: and the family, if you can imagine, this is all

563
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: lined up on the autopsy gurnies, which these gurnies are

564
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: very specially made that we have. I won't go into

565
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: great graphic detail, but they're each pushed up to a sink.

566
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 1: The feed are on these things, and literally I've been

567
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 1: looking down the line. I remember one case where I

568
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: had a family of five and the son killed everybody,

569
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: and they're all lined up. The sun is at the end,

570
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: and they're all going to be autopsies at the same time. Well,

571
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: I have evidence down at the end that demonstrates to me,

572
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: at least in my own mind, that individual will probably

573
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: brought about the deaths of these Okay, But there is

574
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: always a question that will arise, and dependent upon what

575
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: the law dictates in a particular jurisdiction, the law very

576
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 1: well might say that the body has to it in

577
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: minimum be examined. And there's kind of a rule of

578
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 1: thumb that applies as well if this is safe, for instance,

579
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: a firearms related death, and this even applies to suicides.

580
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: Every office I've ever been affiliated with, we don't like

581
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,280
Speaker 1: to bury bullets. If there is around in a body,

582
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 1: we're going after that round. Whether it's in the head

583
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: or if it's in the trunk of the body, we're

584
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,720
Speaker 1: still going after that. That is a bit of evidence

585
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: that has to be recovered. It's going to be heavily

586
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: depended upon who is administrating that office at any particular time.

587
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: But I think that caution is the watchwork, and to

588
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: take the conservative view here to say that there is

589
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: always a problem that might arise, and that if you

590
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: don't do this autopsy at this particular time. If anything

591
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: does arise, well, what are you going to do after

592
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 1: the body has been sent to the crematory, or what

593
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 1: are you going to do after the body is vaulted

594
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: somewhere or put into a mausoleum, And now you've got

595
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: to get an order of exhamation. It's better to go

596
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: ahead and do it now, to the point of you

597
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: can go and chat with ten people randomly, and they're

598
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: all going to come from different belief backgrounds. And there

599
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: are some belief systems out there that really frown upon autopsies.

600
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 1: I don't know if I mentioned it before, but I've

601
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: actually been present when we had an ultra Orthodox Jewish

602
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: gentleman that had unfortunately taken his own life. He drowned

603
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 1: himself in a swimming pool, and our corner was determined

604
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 1: to have that autopsy performed, and we did autopsy, and

605
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: there was actually a rabbi there that was soaking up

606
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: every bit of blood as we were doing the autopsy,

607
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: even bone dust, because all of those element from a

608
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: spiritual standpoint, had to be buried with the body. And

609
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 1: that was kind of fascinating. So, yeah, we do have

610
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: people that protest against having autopsies performed, and sometimes those

611
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: will be based on religious beliefs. The medical legal authority

612
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 1: by law will take that into consideration, but at the

613
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: end of the day, these individuals will the medical legal

614
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: authority will trump any protestation on the part of the family,

615
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 1: and families go to get injunctions and all kinds of things.

616
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: I've been in the middle of those cases before, where

617
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: the family is just saying they don't want the autopsy done.

618
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 1: I have found that many times when you don't do

619
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 1: the autopsies in this case, those cases and this very

620
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: cynical view, many times it's the same families that six

621
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: months later say why didn't you do the autopsy? So

622
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: it's better to be safe than sorry. I'm Joseph Scott

623
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is bodybacks

624
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 2: H