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Speaker 1: Welcome into Northside Territory, Foul Territory Networks Cubs Podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Sahadev Sharma with my partner Patrick Mooney. We are your

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Speaker 1: Cubs beat writers over at the Athletic Patrick. The Japan

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Speaker 1: trip is over, Spring training is over, Domestic opening day

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Speaker 1: is here. It's right around the corner, about twenty four

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Speaker 1: a little over twenty four hours away from when we're recording.

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Speaker 1: I'm back in Arizona. It has been a weird month

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Speaker 1: of travel. I think my body clock is back to normal,

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Speaker 1: although I'm sleeping much later than I normally do, so

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know what's going on. We

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Speaker 1: can talk about like that. For how that has impacted players.

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Speaker 1: I did briefly talk to a couple guys, you know,

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Speaker 1: just to kind of get their feelings of how the

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Speaker 1: trip treated them and how they're feeling before the season started.

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Speaker 1: Mostly relievers. I think that's who going to impact the most,

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Speaker 1: the pitchers. And then and we had, you know, our

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Speaker 1: final sit down before the season starts with Craig Counsel

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Speaker 1: and got some news from him. I think the biggest

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Speaker 1: piece is Ben Brown is going to open the season

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Speaker 1: in the rotation.

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Speaker 2: He is the team's fifth starter.

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Speaker 1: You know, we kind of prepared fans for maybe Colin

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Speaker 1: Ray being in that role. I think some injuries kind

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Speaker 1: of opened up a spot in the bullpen. We can

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Speaker 1: go through why it makes sense to have Colin Rain

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Speaker 1: and the bullpen at the start, But I think Ben

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Speaker 1: Brown is a fascinating addition to the rotation and has

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Speaker 1: the highest upside of any pitcher this team has outside

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Speaker 1: of Kate Horton probably, but like the really really interesting

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Speaker 1: and intriguing arm who could be kind of if it

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Speaker 1: all clicks. He's the kind of arm that they're missing

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Speaker 1: in this rotation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean you wrote about this in The Athletic, a

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Speaker 3: good recap of kind of why they did this, what

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Speaker 3: was sort of Brown's action, because I think, you know,

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Speaker 3: everyone who's encountered him has been impressed with his sort

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Speaker 3: of disposition and his analytical approach to things. I'm sure

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Speaker 3: he took the news in stride.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In fact, it doesn't sound like he was straight up

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Speaker 1: told that he'd be the fifth starter, at least the

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Speaker 1: way he described it. I asked him, like, how how

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Speaker 1: did you get the news? And like how did you

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Speaker 1: take it? He's like, I just kind of did the

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Speaker 1: math and like counted up my dates and it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm going on this day.

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Speaker 2: And and like and and then someone followed up.

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Speaker 1: He's like, so did count so did what was the

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Speaker 1: conversation like like kind of clarify, trying to clarify. He's like, no,

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Speaker 1: I just counted out the dates and that and I knew,

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Speaker 1: like this is when I'm going. So so it wasn't

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Speaker 1: like an and he wasn't when I said when I

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Speaker 1: told him, like Council said you were the fifth starter

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Speaker 1: to us, he was like, well that that He's like

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Speaker 1: it certainly is nice to hear that.

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Speaker 2: I guess. So, I don't know. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's a little unclear there. I was like, did Council

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Speaker 1: not straight up tell him? I guess he knew he

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Speaker 1: was on the team right once Tyson Miller goes on

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Speaker 1: the I l.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, no, he's not. He.

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Speaker 1: I think he's taking it very like you said, he's

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Speaker 1: taking it in stride. He's excited for the opportunity. I

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Speaker 1: think he knows what he can bring, Like he's not

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Speaker 1: like if you like I've asked him like in different

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Speaker 1: ways over the past month, and a half. How do

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Speaker 1: you look at yourself as far as you know, being

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Speaker 1: that difference, that different type of arm in the rotation.

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Speaker 2: And he's well aware that of that.

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Speaker 1: You know, he's not going to like defer and say like, no,

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Speaker 1: there are veterans that can do all sorts of different things.

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Speaker 1: You know, maybe maybe this guy ups his strike out, right,

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Speaker 1: He's not like trying to pretend like they like they

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Speaker 1: don't need this type of arm. But he also knows

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Speaker 1: he has areas to grow. I thought that was Council's

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Speaker 1: best point or most interesting point. It's like, yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: what he falls back on. That what he needs to

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Speaker 1: fall back on when he gets in trouble right now,

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Speaker 1: But he needs to grow in other areas. He basically said,

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Speaker 1: like it's all the other stuff, Like all the other

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Speaker 1: stuff is where he needs to get better. And he's right,

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Speaker 1: like he's not a finished product. Like this year is

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Speaker 1: this year about as far as the team goes, isn't

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Speaker 1: about development. But there's development that needs to be had

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Speaker 1: for Ben Brown over the course of the season.

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Speaker 3: I think he's a good example of what this team needs,

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Speaker 3: not just stuff wise, but also I mean Jed Hoyer

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Speaker 3: alluded to it in his Q and A with John

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Speaker 3: Greenberg or the first of a two part Q and

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Speaker 3: A in the Athletic of any guys to outperform expectations

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Speaker 3: are their projections or really frankly their track records, and

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Speaker 3: he is probably has a better chance than most to

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Speaker 3: do that again if he stays healthy, right like, and

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Speaker 3: going into this training, to me, it felt like Javier

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Speaker 3: Assade had shown enough to where he deserved a spot

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Speaker 3: in the rotation, and then he gets hurt I think

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Speaker 3: technically before the actual report date, so that kind of

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Speaker 3: creates an opening. And then I was still very much

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Speaker 3: wait and see. With Ben Brown's health. I mean, you

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Speaker 3: got him to actually say what happened last year. I

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Speaker 3: mean it was this mysterious neck injury that kind of

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Speaker 3: cleared up almost as mysteriously I'm oversimplifying here, but that

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Speaker 3: came and went, and then it's like, Okay, if he's healthy,

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Speaker 3: that's super interesting. And I do think too, they're trying

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Speaker 3: to take the best twenty six and I think taking

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Speaker 3: him and both taking both him and Matt Shaw, rather

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Speaker 3: than kind of deferring to like forty man roster maneuvering

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Speaker 3: in the future, not defaulting to okay, if you have

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Speaker 3: an option, you're out. Like they're putting a lot on

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Speaker 3: both of those guys. But Brown, when he's out there

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Speaker 3: and healthy, has shown he can do it. It's just

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Speaker 3: a matter of we haven't seen it yet for a

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Speaker 3: six month season.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: No, I it was like I think it's fifty five

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Speaker 1: and the third innings last year in the big leagues,

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Speaker 1: and that was he didn't pitch in the minors last

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Speaker 1: year because of Justin Steele's injury to start the season.

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Speaker 1: He was called up almost immediately, right, So, Like I

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Speaker 1: think that's where when you talk about like needing to

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Speaker 1: stay healthy.

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Speaker 2: If he does stay healthy, like how much can he

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Speaker 2: give you?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Like they do things differently than when you and I

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Speaker 1: were growing up watching the game or even starting our careers.

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Speaker 1: Like the way they monitor workloads is much more scientific

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Speaker 1: than he pitched X number of innings last year, that

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Speaker 1: means he can only pitch this many innings this year.

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Speaker 2: They don't do it like that.

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Speaker 1: There's there's ways that they monitor things and they can

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Speaker 1: see like oh he's like whether it's how he's working

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Speaker 1: out or whatever. The way they they have so many

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Speaker 1: different things that they track and like so many different wearables, right,

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Speaker 1: like tech wearables that they have that monitor their body

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Speaker 1: that they know, like this guy's getting tired. A look

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Speaker 1: at his armslot it's dropping, his velocity is dropping. This

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Speaker 1: breaking ball isn't moving like it should. Whatever it is,

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Speaker 1: they notice these things and those are signs for them,

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Speaker 1: indicators that this guy needs We need to pull back

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Speaker 1: on this guy, right, But that I think that's something

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Speaker 1: that we need to keep an eye on, which is

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Speaker 1: also part of the reason why I thought maybe he

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Speaker 1: doesn't start the season in the rotation, or you know,

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Speaker 1: they slowly stretch him out in the miners to start

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Speaker 1: the season.

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Speaker 2: Whatever.

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Speaker 1: Clearly that the combo of Tyson Miller's injury, and I

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Speaker 1: think there's a little sense of urgency in the sense

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Speaker 1: that this this is their toughest month and you may

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Speaker 1: as well put out like, let's see what this guy

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Speaker 1: can do.

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Speaker 2: Can he be a huge part of the team.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's not crazy to suggest he's gonna end

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Speaker 1: up being one of their best.

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Speaker 2: He could. He has the potential to.

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Speaker 1: Be one of their best pitchers, right he certain he

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Speaker 1: has that potential. I don't know if he if he'll

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Speaker 1: reach that certainly not this season. I don't know, but

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Speaker 1: you can't rule it out. Like you said, like you

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Speaker 1: need guys to overperform or outperform projections, and frankly like

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Speaker 1: good teams have young players step up every year.

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Speaker 2: Every year.

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Speaker 1: Good if you're a good team, you have young players

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Speaker 1: step up. Patrick, Let's let's quickly take a break before

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Speaker 1: we touch on some other roster moves that were made

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Speaker 1: before this season has started.

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Speaker 1: All right, Patrick, one other move, Well, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: we knew it was coming, but Brad Keller made the team.

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Speaker 1: It's one of those things where you come into camp

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Speaker 1: you see this guy doing well, or you hear rumors

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Speaker 1: about this guy having good side sessions. I always try

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Speaker 1: and take that stuff with a grain of salt, right,

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Speaker 1: but I had like there were It was interesting enough

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Speaker 1: that when you see a guy throwing ninety seven ninety

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Speaker 1: eight in his first relief appearance, you're like, huh, that's interesting.

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Speaker 2: What can he be?

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Speaker 1: And then immediately the manager says, no, it's it's worth

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Speaker 1: asking that question. So you know it kind of it

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Speaker 1: kind of alerts you do like, okay, this is they're

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Speaker 1: they're taking this seriously. This isn't a and and Council

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Speaker 1: is good about that, right, He'll he'll be very grudging.

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Speaker 3: Very grudgingly acknowledge that that's a good question.

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Speaker 2: Is how.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean he he'll tell you straight up

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Speaker 1: and like you're off base, Like, well, you're not too far.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't read too much into that, right, He's good

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Speaker 1: about that. And he didn't pou poo it with Brad Keller.

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Speaker 1: Sure enough, here he is on the roster. You know,

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Speaker 1: he's not Ben Brown X factor. But in a bullpen

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Speaker 1: where we just don't you know, I like the depth.

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Speaker 1: I liked that they bad and a lot of guys

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Speaker 1: you're always a little worried about a bullpen. And as

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Speaker 1: far as I'm concerned, I'm always like a who's gonna

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Speaker 1: who's gonna take a step back this year?

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Speaker 2: Who's gonna show their age? Whatever it may be.

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Speaker 1: Uh, it's just hard to know when it comes to

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Speaker 1: a bullpen. And uh that Brad Keller could like as

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Speaker 1: weird as it sounds, he could be that guy that

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Speaker 1: kind of be the one that he's the one that

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Speaker 1: steps up and and and kind of carries the load

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Speaker 1: at a certain point, that's how interesting he is.

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Speaker 3: And he might have to be that guy, right, I mean,

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Speaker 3: just knowing how volatile bullpens are in general. And I think,

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Speaker 3: you know, we've written this and it's true, like the

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Speaker 3: group is deeper than it's been in years past. It's

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Speaker 3: more established, but still like let's see them with with

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Speaker 3: a lead, right, and let's see how like you know,

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Speaker 3: it looks after the first week, after the first home stand,

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Speaker 3: after like the toughest month in baseball, you know, according

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Speaker 3: to you know, uh, you know whatever win percentage from

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Speaker 3: last year. Uh. I like having Ryan Presley back there.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think he's probably gonna I have some struggles, right,

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Speaker 3: Like he's gotten older, Like he's not quite you know

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Speaker 3: what a role of this Chapman was or what wayde

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Speaker 3: Davis was when they had that run there of you know,

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Speaker 3: kind of great established closers. But I think he brings

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Speaker 3: just an organizing force that they did not have the

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Speaker 3: last couple aprils. And you know, we'll see what Porter

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Speaker 3: Hodge can do after a very good rookie season. Uh.

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Speaker 3: Julian Meriweather, if healthy, can be dominant. And then I

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Speaker 3: mean this comes on comes back to uh Craig council, right,

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Speaker 3: like he's got to push the right but here and

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Speaker 3: I know it's always a group, you know, collaborative decision.

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Speaker 3: But he was hired because the Cubs are just constantly

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Speaker 3: frustrated by what the Brewers would do. And part of

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Speaker 3: it was, yes, he did have Devin Williams and Josh Hater,

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Speaker 3: but also like they constantly found guys that we had

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Speaker 3: never heard of or guys that had discarded elsewhere, and

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden, they're pitching in big moments. And

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Speaker 3: so I think that'll be, you know, a fascinating thing

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Speaker 3: to watch on fold. I mean, there's gonna be blow ups,

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Speaker 3: there's gonna be blown saves, there's gonna be overreactions, but

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Speaker 3: like how how they piece this together is gonna be

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Speaker 3: huge because I mean, this is a team with a

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Speaker 3: lot of margin Freyr. I mean Jed Hoyer told that

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Speaker 3: to John Greenberg. They're explicitly saying, we don't have a

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Speaker 3: lot of margin, Frerer, So get the bullpen ride.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, No, they have to. They have to hope that

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Speaker 1: this is right. And listen, I know fans are.

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Speaker 2: I shouldn't. I shouldn't say all of them.

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Speaker 1: Uh, there are some people that I see getting worried

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Speaker 1: on Twitter about spring training performances. My default is I

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Speaker 1: don't care about spring training performances. I just I don't

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Speaker 1: like not the results. If someone's down four miles per hour,

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Speaker 1: two miles per hour and it's two days to opening day, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's gonna I'm gonna be like, huh, what's going on?

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Speaker 2: Is that a second you know, a third deck thing?

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Speaker 1: You need another deck there to get amped up, especially relievers.

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Speaker 1: You run on adrenaline. You need a closing situation. This

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Speaker 1: year though, it's especially interesting, you know, like this is

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Speaker 1: not a normal circumstance that the Cubs are heading into

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Speaker 1: or just experience. You know, like Japan was a nine

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Speaker 1: day trip. Pictures like two weeks before the season starts,

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Speaker 1: the you know, the main part of the season. You

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Speaker 1: have two regular games, two exhibition games, so essentially two

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Speaker 1: games for relievers to.

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Speaker 2: Get in, right, they're not.

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Speaker 1: They've that's two games in nine days when at a

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Speaker 1: point when you're trying to ramp them up to start

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Speaker 1: doing back to backs, they've not had back to backs.

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Speaker 1: They just had a pitch off pitch Saturday and Monday.

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Speaker 1: If I'm remembering correctly, right, I talked to some of

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Speaker 1: these pitchers, ask them how they're doing. They were they

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Speaker 1: were pretty blunt. My body feels like crap. But and

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Speaker 1: they're like, but we just got to push through. Like

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Speaker 1: this isn't unprecedented. It's just like our body's gone through

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Speaker 1: a lot.

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Speaker 2: It's not. It's an untraditional.

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Speaker 1: Way to build up for spring for the season, but

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Speaker 1: you just have to push through it. Talking to Tommy Hottevey,

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Speaker 1: they they've prepped for this. They knew it was going

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Speaker 1: to be kind of like Japan would be a d

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Speaker 1: load for them and not ideal. It's not how you

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Speaker 1: build up for the season with that travel and the

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Speaker 1: lack of throwing. Partially why Colin Ray stayed back and

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Speaker 1: through five innings on a backfield and they're going to like,

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Speaker 1: Council was very open, he needs to lean on Colin

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Speaker 1: Ray in this first seven to ten games, right he

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Speaker 1: What's happening is so you have bullpen arms that aren't

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Speaker 1: where they normally would be, right, but you have seven

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Speaker 1: games straight to start the domestic part of the season,

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Speaker 1: no off day because they start in a dome. You

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Speaker 1: have pitchers that would normally be built up to ninety

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Speaker 1: ninety five pitches that are at eighty eighty five pitches

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Speaker 1: as far as the starters go. And now now you

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Speaker 1: have to piece it together over seven games. How do

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Speaker 1: you fill those innings right? It's all about how do

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Speaker 1: you how do you get those innings taken care of?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: So Colin Ray is going to be a big part

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Speaker 1: of that. There's going to be a game where he

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Speaker 1: has to pitch like three innings, you know, and then

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Speaker 1: three days later or four days later, he's going to

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Speaker 1: have to do it again. I'm guessing Keller is one

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Speaker 1: of those guys that he's going to be a multi

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Speaker 1: inning guy. He's going to have to eat innings. It's

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Speaker 1: going to be interesting to start the season, and I

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Speaker 1: think there may be some panic among fans that see

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Speaker 1: the way some guys pitch, Like listen, it's go time

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Speaker 1: and they have to perform. You can't, like they can't

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Speaker 1: just be like excuse after excuse. But I think it

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Speaker 1: will be important to keep things in perspective as far

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Speaker 1: as like when I say that, like, listen, they need

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Speaker 1: to win games. They can't fall in a huge hole.

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Speaker 1: They can't be eight games under five hundred after April,

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Speaker 1: you Like, these are things that you just you just

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Speaker 1: don't want to repeatedly have to like dig yourself out

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Speaker 1: of a hole. But when I say like it, take

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Speaker 1: it with a grain of salt. I mean, I mean,

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Speaker 1: if if reliever X is struggling, DFA isn't the immediate answer, Like,

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Speaker 1: there are certain things you need to look at and

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Speaker 1: and understand. It's like maybe in certain cases you have

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Speaker 1: to be aggressive, but in others you need to kind

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Speaker 1: of take it all in perspective and be like, this

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Speaker 1: guy did not get a normal ramp up, and these

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Speaker 1: are creatures of habit and their routine has been severely

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Speaker 1: thrown off. I wanted to look back, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: get a chance. I asked councils straight up, like, did

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Speaker 1: you look back at the Dodgers and Padres see if

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Speaker 1: how they were their pictures kind of handled things that

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Speaker 1: first two weeks or first month. And I don't remember. Look,

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Speaker 1: I feel like the Padres did get off to a

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Speaker 1: bad start or not a great start. I cannot remember

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Speaker 1: if the Dodgers did or not. The Dodgers had a

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Speaker 1: ton of injuries early on, though I remember that, So it's.

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Speaker 2: Just something to keep in mind.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think in terms of overreacting. I want to know, like,

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Speaker 3: what's up with the lineup?

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Speaker 2: Is this council going.

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Speaker 3: To be changing things around? And you had a couple

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Speaker 3: of exchanges on that topic this week in Mesa.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so I noticed the lineup was different on

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Speaker 1: Jeez Tuesday, and that was that's basically what the I

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Speaker 1: think the lineup is going to be. Shaw was bad.

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Speaker 1: I should have the lineup right here. Shaw was batting eighth, correct, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Shaw was batting eighth. Horner was up to six with

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Speaker 1: Swanson fifth, So that's different than what he had in

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Speaker 1: Japan with Shaw fifth, Swanson sixth, the PCA.

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Speaker 2: And Maya Birdie. I think he went for whatever it was.

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Speaker 1: So Nico's back is the big factor there and he's

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Speaker 1: shifting the way he's he's constructing the lineup.

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Speaker 2: He was asked.

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Speaker 1: I was told by our buddy Jordan Bastian that Jordan

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Speaker 1: asked him. Look, first of all, council hates line up questions.

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Speaker 1: He just doesn't like talking about the lineup. It's just like,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's a pet peeve of his. It's very

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Speaker 1: clear like he just thinks. I think the reason is

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Speaker 1: he thinks too much is made of it, which is

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Speaker 1: not something we're unfamiliar with, Like we've been dealing with

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Speaker 1: that since Joe Madden, right, like Joe Madden thought it

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Speaker 1: was there was too much made of it. And he

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Speaker 1: he was asked straight up, just like, does Nico's return

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Speaker 1: change the way you think about the lineup?

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Speaker 2: And it was a straightforward yes, And that was Scoutzil's answer.

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Speaker 1: And I think we saw the definitive answer on Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: and we'll probably see it again on Thursday. I had

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Speaker 1: just not really that hadn't. Maybe it was jet lag brain.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it had not. I had not fully

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Speaker 1: processed that, like I had not thought about, Oh, Nico's

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Speaker 1: back that changes the calculus of how you think about

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Speaker 1: the lineup. It was, you know, I thought it was

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Speaker 1: aggressive to have shot five. I also don't, like I

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Speaker 1: just struggle to like want to like make a big

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Speaker 1: deal out of that for two games and even if

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Speaker 1: he stuck with it for a week or two or

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Speaker 1: like whatever, even if that was his decision for the season.

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Speaker 1: Because for me, in a lineup, when you talk about

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Speaker 1: having your best players at the top, it's like if

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Speaker 1: you're saying, like I have my best players in the

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Speaker 1: top six and like, well, do you have your is

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Speaker 1: like the fifth best hitter hitting six and the sixth

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Speaker 1: best hitter hitting fifth.

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Speaker 2: That's not the end of the world.

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Speaker 1: If you have your best hitter hitting seventh and your

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Speaker 1: seventh best hitter hitting second. Now I'm now I have

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Speaker 1: some issues, right, Like you can't have like these subpar

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Speaker 1: hitters in the top three and then like have really

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Speaker 1: good hitters in the bottom three. Like that's when the

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Speaker 1: like the numbers people would freak out if you're like

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Speaker 1: even I think David Ross would would do some things

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Speaker 1: that the numbers people didn't agree with exactly right, but

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Speaker 1: there when I talk to them, they would like they're like,

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Speaker 1: it's one spot difference, It's not like that's not the

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Speaker 1: end of the world. Over the course of a season,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't change anything in theory. You can take the

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Speaker 1: anecdotal evidence in game by game evidence and run with it.

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Speaker 1: And I understand that's it's normal to do. It's just

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Speaker 1: not how how these guys think as far as lineup

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Speaker 1: construction and the big picture.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think ultimately Matt Shup better hit like a

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Speaker 3: number five or six or more than an eight or nan.

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Speaker 2: That's why he's there. Yeah, just like better hit.

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Speaker 3: There are a lot of reasons you know, why he's here,

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Speaker 3: but the primary one is that he's hit everywhere he's

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Speaker 3: been right, So like if he's learning on the job defensively,

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Speaker 3: he's gotten the backs of the table offensively. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: we'll see, We'll see how he responds and how he

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Speaker 3: enjoys the lineup banter.

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Speaker 2: Let's get off to a slow start. I'm gonna have

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Speaker 2: to ask a lineup question.

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Speaker 3: You got it, you got it, just just to keep

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Speaker 3: him on guard, just so we have it for posterity,

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Speaker 3: so we know.

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Speaker 1: We haven't even bugged him about he in half leading off.

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Speaker 1: Its just not not even one question. It's uh, he's

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Speaker 1: getting off Scott free here, all right, Patrick opening domestic

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Speaker 1: opening day twenty four hours away.

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Speaker 2: Fans will be excited for that.

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Speaker 1: We'll see if they can get back on track here,

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Speaker 1: win some games, Like like I said in our last episode,

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Speaker 1: getting to five hundred after Arizona, that'll be a difficult feat.

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Speaker 1: You got to win three or four just to get

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Speaker 1: to five hundred. This is not an easy month. This

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Speaker 1: is not easy first week. Nothing about this is gonna

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Speaker 1: be easy. I think I think this is gonna be

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Speaker 1: one of those summers where there's a lot of stress

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Speaker 1: in that Cubs at Wrigley Field and with those hopefully

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Speaker 1: not with the players, but certainly like the front office

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Speaker 1: is going to be feeling it because they know, they

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Speaker 1: know how important winning is. For twenty twenty five, there's

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Speaker 1: a reason Kyle Tucker's on this team and Cam Smith isn't.

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Speaker 1: So all right, We'll be back with another episode very shortly.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to everyone. This is Northside Territory.

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Speaker 2: Make sure to.

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Speaker 1: Rate, review, subscribe, subscribe to the YouTube channel, Subscribe to

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Speaker 1: The Athletic where Patrick and I are on top of

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Speaker 1: all things Cubs. Thanks so much for listening everyone. Take

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Speaker 1: care the.

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Speaker 7: Names and then do anything I read. Do they the