WEBVTT - How Fatherhood Changes the Male Brain 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:05.360 Let's talk about it. Let's talk about the May Hero. 0:00:08.840 --> 0:00:13.840 Let's talk about it. Let's talk about the May Hero. 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:20.840 Welcome to the man, Welcome back to the mail room. 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:26.080 Jordan Runza joining me as always, such a great enjoyable 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:28.040 time to hang out in the mailroom. We have an 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:31.800 amazing guest today. Then I'm super pumped to introduce and 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:34.839 I will just start by saying that that doctor Saxby 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:38.159 is a clinical psychologist and professor of psychology at the 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:39.560 University of Southern California. 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:42.000 She's published over eighty scientific. 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:43.960 Articles in peer review journals and secured more than three 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:46.760 million in grant funding for her research, which is no 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:50.440 small feat. As an academic physician and professor myself, I 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:53.120 can tell you that is a lot of cash. So 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:56.000 congratulations to her at that she's earned awards from the 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:59.880 American Psychological Association and the Society for Research and Child Development. 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:01.240 Was a fulbright fellow. 0:01:01.960 --> 0:01:05.600 Doctor Saxby's written for outlets diverse such as The New 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:09.119 York Times, Oh, the Oprah Magazine, and Scientific America. Now 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:11.039 that's an interesting Vinn diagram as well, to see how 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:13.800 many people are published in Scientific American, New York Times 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:17.440 and Oh, She's also been consultant on best selling books, 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:20.920 including Eve Rodzky's fair Play. She received her PhD in 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:25.240 clinical psychology from UCLA Go Bruins and her BA in 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:29.880 English and Psychology from Yale University. So it's absolute joy 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:32.920 to have Professor Saxby on today. And you know, I 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:35.119 didn't know until I read her book, which, by the way, 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:38.240 is amazing. The book that is coming out on June 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:40.720 ninth is called Dad Brain. Everybody needs to buy it, 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.920 download it, listen to it. Books, as a as a 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:48.120 there it is is beautiful. As an author of a 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:49.920 book that I put out a few years ago, there 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:53.400 is nothing more sad and lonely than sitting and writing. 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:57.320 And then her book is just so much fun to read. 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:00.560 It's engaging, and she's totally a rockstar that in all 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:02.920 senses of the words. She hangs out plays in a 0:02:02.960 --> 0:02:05.480 band and Joan, I was thinking, maybe what we'll do 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.240 is because it's about dads and the kia true the 0:02:09.240 --> 0:02:11.680 psychology of dads. We're going to really dig deep into this. 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:15.400 But it got me thinking because of our love for music, 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:17.320 that how are you, by the way, Jordan, what's up 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:17.480 with you? 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:18.880 Man? Are you good? Your dad good. 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:19.160 Good. 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:21.840 I am great. I am I'm so excited. I mean 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:24.560 anytime psychology and music or two of my twin loves. 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:26.000 So I am so excited for today. 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:28.320 Nice. Yeah, And your dad's good and everything's going on. 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:28.600 Dad. 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:30.520 Dad is good. Yeah, that is very good. He's planning 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:33.040 he's going on a trip to Japan very soon, which 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:34.000 I'm very jealous about. 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:34.480 So he's great. 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:35.280 He's doing better than me. 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:37.960 So did he get you into music? I mean, how 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:40.920 did your how did your music thing go with your dad? 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:44.960 You know, it's funny, my dad never stopped listening to 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:46.920 new music, you know how you kind of get frozen 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:48.920 in the music of your upbringing. And he grew up 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:53.840 in the sixties and early seventies, and he never stopped listening. 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:56.639 He's always just a voracious music listener. So growing up 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:00.239 in the early nineties, he would play you know, Nirvana 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:04.919 and Elanasmore Second Jagged Little Pill and uh terri Amos 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.160 and Fiona Apple and. 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:08.119 And something. 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:12.800 Yeah and so, and he played all the stuff around 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:16.560 the house and so and I never really connected with it. 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:19.040 And then it was seeing the movie Back to the 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:22.960 Future and seeing Marty McFly play Chuck Berry where I 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:25.239 had the reaction that all the people of my parents 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:27.520 generation did, which is what is this music? 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:28.600 What is this like? 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:30.720 I mean, it was all, you know, very simple, three 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:32.720 chord kind of blues progressions and stuff. 0:03:32.760 --> 0:03:34.320 But I loved it. 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:36.560 So I would like to say that my dad taught 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:38.000 me how to be a music fan. 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:39.120 But I think the. 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:40.920 Music that I loved was stuff I kind of came 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:45.000 to on my own. I've gotten oldies basically as almost 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:46.000 like a form of rebellion. 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:47.080 I was kind of like the Alex P. 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:49.000 Keaton to think of Michael J. 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:50.360 Fox again in my family. 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:55.320 But yeah, so he he's the passion for music came 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:57.080 from him, But I think I found it kind of. 0:03:57.040 --> 0:03:59.240 On my own. But what about you, well, Darby? 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.280 Well, I could ask Darby because her dad, like me, 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.520 was a surgeon and a tuba player. So, by the way, 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.120 welcome to the freaking mail room. It's so great to 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:11.200 have you here. So cool that too, Angelina was just 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:13.920 hanging out talking. But tell me about tell me about 0:04:13.960 --> 0:04:16.880 your musical influences growing up with your dad and the tuba. 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:19.960 Oh yeah, so my dad played the tuba, He played 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:23.479 the double belled euphonium. He also played bukulele, So I 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:27.039 was just telling these guys. I learned ukulele from my 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:31.360 dad and he was a huge music fan, so he 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:34.680 had lots of records. He loved folk music, so a 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:38.560 lot of Scottish music, Irish folk music. But I would 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.400 listen to his Beatles records, which I was obsessed with. 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:46.080 And then I was also like Jordan, I was kind 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:49.200 of an oldies nerd, so I would listen to I 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:52.560 grew up in Ohio. I would listen to Cleveland WMJI, 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:57.360 which was like the oldies radio station in Ji Magic Wmji. 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:01.160 So and so I loved fifty in sixties music. I 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:03.080 still love it. I love girl group music, I love 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:11.279 the Sure, I love early Beatles, British Invasion, like Herman's, Hermits. 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:11.200 Like all that. 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.120 Why yeah, I mean the King's is probably one of 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:15.720 my They were one of my favorite bands. 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:16.560 Love the Kings. 0:05:16.640 --> 0:05:18.280 Yeah, So that's like yeah. 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.040 So for a long time I was a snob that 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:24.120 never wanted to hear anything made before nineteen seventy. But 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:27.320 then later in high school college I got into kind 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:30.680 of nineties indie rock and I love the band Guide 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:34.440 to my Voices and nice and was you know, was 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:37.120 in bands in college and then after college, and then 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:40.720 I married a music producer so that I could vicariously 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:48.719 live around bands at all times. Yeah, and I play 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:51.880 in a band that is me and four other moms. 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:53.080 That is too cool. 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:54.280 We gig around town. 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:55.279 I play guys. 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:57.440 Do you guys ever play any premise and bring your 0:05:57.520 --> 0:05:58.960 dad on stage for the two. 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:04.200 I don't know for our bass player. I mean, she's 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:05.520 very good. I don't know if she can't. 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:09.640 Yeah, yeah, I love it. 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:13.080 That's so good. Well, I mean, we're gonna have too 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.880 much fun. This is totally cool. And I just got 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:17.800 to say generally, my you know, my comments on your 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:21.320 book Dad Brain Again, coming out June ninth, is it's 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:25.640 just so approach, just delightfully approachable, high level science, and 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:27.400 it's very digestible. And that's, you know, kind of what 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:30.440 I always do, writing, speaking and anything, is just making 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:35.040 something really complicated, very understandable and for God's sakes fun. 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:37.320 I mean, you're just you're not showing off, You're having 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:39.880 so much fun of the writing. You're just dropping jokes 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:42.440 left and right, and it's just it's just great. So 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:44.560 I'm super excited for our listeners to to be able 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:46.960 to pick up a copy of that book June ninth, 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:49.760 and uh, and it's just, you know, you're so deeply personal, 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:52.280 but you didn't have to overshare, which is kind of 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:54.640 rare in this day and age and in the tell 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:58.040 all zkay. So so anyway, congrats on that. I would 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:00.680 love for you to just kind of give us your 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:02.760 creation story in the background. I mean, you do it 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:04.159 in the book a little bit. So obviously I don't 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:07.040 want to have any spoiler alerts, but tell me about, 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:09.040 you know, how you started in this research, how you 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:13.000 got into using dads as your you know, as your 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:16.360 Diane Fosse's you know, how did you not end up 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:20.520 in Africa studying other primates and it's dead studying the 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:21.880 dad breaking. 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:24.160 That's right, it was I was too lazy to travel 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:28.120 across the world, so I focused on humans instead. But yeah, 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:30.640 I grew up kind of watching my dad go through 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:34.040 his own transformation. So my parents got divorced when I 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:35.960 was about nine. I tell the story in the book, 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:39.920 But he got joint We did joint custody. He had 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.920 soul custody at first because she moved out and so 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:46.120 he was just alone with me and my siblings and 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.160 kind of fending for himself as someone who had been 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:52.760 pretty checked out of parenting before, like a typical eighties dad, 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.720 right like working and coming home and not necessarily totally 0:07:56.760 --> 0:08:00.600 hands on, and he just over time kind of rose 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:05.280 to the occasion and became this fantastic, really nurturing, really 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:11.880 attentive father figure. And so kind of watching his change 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:17.040 in transformation made me interested in fatherhood in general, because 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:19.720 it's just so variable, and I think in science you 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:23.240 always want to look at phenomena that vary because that's 0:08:23.280 --> 0:08:27.240 where the interesting chance to find something is. And so 0:08:28.200 --> 0:08:31.560 as I went to college and grad school, I was 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:37.440 always interested in relationships and studied families and always with 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.120 a focus on what's going on with the fathers and 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:43.240 what is kind of helping the fathers get online and 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:47.079 get involved in parenting, and you know, hence my lands 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:49.560 research and hence ultimately writing this book. 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:54.040 So put your dad in your functional MRI pre and 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:56.720 post that transformation. So let's talk about the brain and 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:00.440 neuroscience a little bit. You know, so dad won before 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:03.600 that transformation happened, walk us through his brain scan what 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:06.280 areas of the brain were lighting up, and then post transformation. 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:07.920 What we're lighting up? 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:10.880 Oh this is interesting. Yeah, I'm sure if I my 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:12.680 dad is going to listen to this and say, you 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:13.920 got my brain all wrong. 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.280 Well, he's a surgeon, so we're always right. So that's 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:19.080 part of the problem. 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:21.000 No, he'll say, I need to cut into it to 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.079 see I just can't just take a picture. That's what 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:24.800 it's that. 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:26.160 That's what radiologists are for. 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:28.719 Yeah, it's like if I don't have a scalpel, you know, 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:32.120 it means nothing. But you know, like I said, pretty 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:36.640 typical eighties dad, so you know, always loving, but not 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:40.600 necessarily really focused on us and what we needed from 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:44.280 moment to moment. And you know, when I talk about 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:47.840 the parenting brain, I often say, think about what happens 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:51.400 in the first few seconds after a child cries and 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.160 I promise I'll get back to my dad. But you 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:58.000 think about what functions you sort of have to turn 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:03.080 on in that first You know, those first moments, you 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:07.440 have to hear the sound of a cry and orient 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:11.280 to it. So you need your salience detection, you need 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:15.319 your emotion perception. You might need to problem solve a 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:19.560 strategy for soothing that child, so you need your executive functioning, 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:24.480 and you need to modulate your distress in order to 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:28.600 be helpful. So you need your emotion regulation, and most importantly, 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:31.520 you need your reward because you need to be motivated 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:35.000 to keep engaging with that child again and again, even 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:38.720 when they're being aversive like crying. And so you think 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.320 about those parts of the brain that are so key 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:46.240 to parenthood. You're talking about the mentalizing network, social cognition, 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:52.320 empathy and emotion, perception and regulation, and then motivation and reward. 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:55.000 And so I think those are all the parts that 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:58.760 would be kind of tuned up in my dad were 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:01.480 we to do that in post scan that we did 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:03.800 with the dads in my lab at USC. 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:08.199 Yeah, okay, okay, so definitely there's there's going to be 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:11.520 changes pre and post And I'm just gonna do some 0:11:11.600 --> 0:11:14.360 quotes because you just had such great quotes, and so 0:11:14.440 --> 0:11:17.760 this is along the lines we're talking about in brain changes. 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:19.120 So here's the line. 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:21.400 This is really when the first few pages of your book, 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:25.280 Adolescence is a time of discovering opportunities and forging new connections. 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:29.040 So brain changes that facilitate risk taking serve those goals, 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:32.040 even if it means that teenagers occasionally do things like 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:36.160 pierce their own ears or light tennis balls on fire. Okay, 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:38.559 so that second impost of behavior is way too specific 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:41.520 to not have some kind of personal context. And also 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:44.320 I may bring up eurologists that you have to unpack. 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.120 Not me, but other eurologists that have done their own visectomies. 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.079 So adult asked urologists, not like you know, these are 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:54.040 board certified thirty five forty year old guys, what region 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.240 of the dad brain allows us to do our own visectomies? 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:00.160 So that's that's a two part question. Burning tennis, Well, 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:01.120 I got to hear the story. 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:04.960 As you probably saw, I grew up playing with the 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:07.720 sectomy needles. My dad would bring them home and they 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:10.000 would they were like these pens that would just get 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:13.000 like insanely hot, and so you could like carve your 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:18.760 name in a piece of furniture. Oh many times I 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.160 would burn a single strand of my hair, like you 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:23.640 could watch it go up in flames. Like for some reason, 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.520 my dad thought this was good, clean fun. Right Like here, kids, 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:29.440 I've got a whole drawer full of these things, So 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:32.760 it's like, what could go wrong? It's like, don't use 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:36.400 them on your hands. And and then I would carve 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:38.440 my name in cassette tapes like you could. 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:38.760 I was. 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:41.280 I would collect cassettes and you could write your name 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.760 or you could write the band. So so we did that. 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:48.440 But the burning tennis balls, I mean, I'm from small town, Ohio. 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:50.480 There was not a lot to do growing up, so 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:54.480 you know, I remember friends like getting cans of w 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:57.360 D forty and lighters and just doing fite where they 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:00.520 sprayed each other. Not a good idea. There was also 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:02.600 a lot of like piling into the back of Todd 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:06.480 Bailey's pickup truck, and like driving snow drifts. Yep, you 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:12.200 could knock people off into the snow. So again not advisable. 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:17.560 Tennis Balls on fire make a satisfying sound, but do 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:18.600 not try this at home. 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:43.600 So sometime after twenty five or twenty six and our 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.400 judgment starts to solidify and we burn off some of 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:51.360 those excess unnecessary neurons that would cause us these impulsive behaviors. Yeah, 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:54.080 did you have bannocka bread spray? Did you ever do 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:56.040 the human blowtorch? Do you know what I'm talking about? 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:56.880 Either one of you guys? 0:13:57.240 --> 0:13:57.360 No? 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.000 Oh man, this is so there was a snuff. 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:01.840 It was came in like a little It was about 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:04.320 the size of a tube of chapstick or lipstick, and 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:06.079 it was breath spray that you know, it was just 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:08.400 procure alcohol and you could buy it over the counter. 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:10.600 And so if you sprayed enough of this, and if 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:13.000 my parents are listening, they're probably horrified and their sons 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:15.400 still here. But you could spray enough in your and 0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:17.960 then hold a cigarette lighter and then breathe fire with 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:21.480 Banaka breastpray. So instead of lighting tennis balls on fire, yeah, 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:23.520 I could have lit my entire face on fire. I mean, 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.160 not me, but some of my friends. Yes, the jaw 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:27.600 drops I'm getting in this shape. 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:29.800 I'm looking it up right now, which is what that 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:30.280 says about. 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:32.840 Okay, So now this is bad because if this goes 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:33.840 on TikTok, I'm intro. 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:38.920 This not a challenge. This is not a challenge. 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:43.400 Please do not download this episode, buy the book, Stay 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:47.400 away from the Banaca breastpray human torch. But yeah, impulsive 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:52.040 behaviors that that that definitely we hope we cast off. 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.040 So yeah, I'm trying to understand it. 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.280 You had a whole great section in this in your 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:05.680 book about the difference between biologic father brains non biologic adopted, 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:10.320 and I don't think I'll ask you about the sperm 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:13.720 donor dads or dads conceived obviously the sperm donor. You know, 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:16.160 if a tree falls in the force, no one's around 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:17.760 to hear it, then it probably doesn't make a sound. 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:19.480 So the sperm donors probably don't have much of a 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:21.680 change in their brain because I don't know, right. 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:22.240 But maybe they do. 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:23.760 We can talk about that as well, But talk to 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:27.120 me about the differences between because you also have an experience, 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:30.160 you know, with a step dad as well, So let's 0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:33.760 unpack that just for all the non traditional, non biologic families. 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.120 As I'm an expert in male fertility and so there's 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:38.400 a lot of different ways to become a dad and 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:41.240 a lot of different genders involved in this as well, 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:43.520 which you do a beautiful job of talking about with 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:48.760 your neighbor. I believe who's trans masculine that you know, 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.080 that's a whole nother thing. I mean, I would love 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:53.440 to get into that too, But yeah, walk me through 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:54.840 that part of our brain and at I mean, the 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:58.160 differences between biologics and non biologic dads. 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:01.280 Yeah, I mean, I think the real bottom line is, 0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:03.600 and I say this in the book Great Fathers Are Made, 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:09.280 not born, it's really through caring and practice and repetition 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:11.440 and getting to know our baby that we're kind of 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:16.120 building that sensitive parenting brain. So I think it's really important. 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.640 Like we often kind of reify like the first hour 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:23.960 after childbirth as this like magic opportunity to create a bond, 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:25.840 and if you miss it, you're just out of luck, 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.640 and that's not really the case. You know, that first 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:32.520 hour can be really magical. It can also be scary 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:36.480 or disappointed, there medically complex, and yes, you know, I 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:40.320 think totally like people often feel, oh no, I sort 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:43.560 of missed this window. And you know, in fact, like 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:45.960 I had a professor in grad school that used to say, 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.240 anything that's so important to human survival is going to 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.760 be overlaid with lots of different redundant mechanisms. So it's 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:56.760 like you miss the first hour, you have lots of 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.440 other opportunities to kind of forge that bond, to have 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:03.880 that hormonal connection, that closeness, you know. In addition to 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:07.280 looking at adoptive dads, I also talked to a father 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:09.919 who was in jail for the first years of his 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:13.280 kid's life, right, Like, you can miss those windows and 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:17.920 still create this really meaningful relationship. And in part that's 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:21.280 because we have these sophisticated human brains that let us 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:25.399 do higher order social cognition. So we don't just have 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:28.760 to smell our baby to care for them. You know, 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:32.040 we're able to kind of think and be intentional and 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.960 create that bond kind of from the outside in. So 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:38.520 you know, what's going on with the brain is still 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:41.199 in some ways a question mark. There have only been 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:43.760 a handful of studies, and this is there's so many 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:46.680 gaps in the literature, but only a handful of studies 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:50.040 looking at adoptive and foster parents. But the one I 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:52.640 think really the high quality study that we have from 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:57.720 Israel looked at adoptive gay fathers and found that they 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:03.399 showed really similar brain responses as heterosexual biological parents. And 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:07.160 in fact, they found that the primary caregiver adoptive male 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:11.960 father in the gay mal couples showed really similar responses 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.680 to the baby as the mom in the heterosexual biological 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:19.359 parent couples and the secondary caregiver. Like they asked the 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:23.399 gay dads, who's primary, who's secondary caregiver? The secondary caregiver 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:26.600 looked a lot like the dads in the heterosexual couples. 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:30.720 So it's like, wow, it's our parental role that kind 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:34.280 of changes the brain versus like we're built with a 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:36.760 brain that you know, if you're a mom is going 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:38.280 to look this way and if your a dad is 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:40.600 going to look this way. I think the bottom line 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:44.000 is humans are flexible and adaptable and that is what 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:45.000 makes us resilient. 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:46.240 No, I love that. 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:48.160 Now you remind me that the smell of a newborn's 0:18:48.160 --> 0:18:51.160 babyit what was that bono lyric Freedom has a smell 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:53.120 like the top of a newborn baby's head or something? 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.320 Is that? You guys know that lyric, isn't it? Something like? 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:56.080 Got it? 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:58.080 So like every time I hear the newborn, I'm like, yes, 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:00.679 you get that if you've been a you know, a parent, 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.440 and you there's something about that head that I don't 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:06.400 you know. My brain is lighting up now just remembering, Yeah, 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:09.840 you know my two boys twenty one and twenty seven 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:10.320 years ago. 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:11.480 That's so great. 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:16.520 Yeah, well, talk about brains and dad brains and you 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.680 know you made a comment about the there's something about 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:24.119 dad brains losing about one percent of their prenatal I. 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:26.639 Guess is the right word volume is that? Is that 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:27.200 per kid? 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:28.920 I mean, is that we have to worry about Elon 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:31.120 Musk or somebody that you know that has thirty five 0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:33.359 kids as he lost thirty five walk me through the 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:37.040 math on that one. Or Eddie Murphy or Philip Rivers, 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:39.200 you know. I mean, I worry about these multi dads 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:41.440 out there, and they're they're gray matter loss. 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:44.240 It's funny when the gray matter loss study came out, 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.879 we got some headlines and it got posted on x 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:50.919 and Elon muck reposted it like my brain must be tiny. 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:55.800 He agrees with you, although you know, he's probably a 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:58.240 good example of a father who's not doing a ton 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:00.199 of day to day hands on care with the of 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:02.680 his kids. And so again it's really it's that care. 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:05.840 I think that's remodeling the brain and not just that 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:12.240 biological connection or that paternity. So we don't totally know 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:15.439 what is happening with multiple kids. There's actually one study 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:18.280 that just came out out of the Netherlands that's looking 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:20.760 at this in moms. They looked at brain changes in 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:24.240