WEBVTT - The Secret to a Long Career? Have More Fun. Lessons From Stephen Colbert’s Head Writer Ariel Dumas 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.840 No one has all the answers, but when we ask 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:10.680 the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths, 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:16.560 closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.280 Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.800 together to challenge the status quo and our own ways 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:27.360 of thinking by daring to ask what if, why not? 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:29.080 And who says? 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:30.560 So? 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:35.920 Come curious, dig deep, and join the conversation. It's time 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:43.239 to question everything. Almost nothing you love ends when you 0:00:43.280 --> 0:00:46.840 want it to. Not to be a bummer, but really 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:51.839 think about it. The job, the era, the relationship, the 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:54.560 version of your life that finally felt like it was working. 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:58.280 Most of it doesn't get a farewell tour. It gets 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:01.120 taken somebody else decide, and then you have to keep 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:03.440 on living and the only thing left is how you 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:06.280 carry it out the door. Now I've noticed there are 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:08.160 two kinds of people. There are people who spend the 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:10.280 rest of their lives arguing with the ending. 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:11.880 I understand that. 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:15.319 And then there are people who somehow leave reflecting, not 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:18.440 because it didn't hurt, but because they discovered something the 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.160 rest of us haven't. And I wanted to talk to 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:25.880 someone who just lived that in public on television. 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:29.920 You have maintained such grace through this process. I would 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:31.200 not I would not have. 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.120 Made that fun. I'm having fun with my friends. 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:35.520 That's how Now. 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.080 That's Stephen Colbert and John Stewart on the final night 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.560 of The Late Show thirty three years after David Letterman 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:44.640 launched the franchise. The lights went out at the Ed 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:50.279 Sullivan Theater. And it wasn't because the show stopped working. 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:53.600 The Late Show was still the most watched show in 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:56.640 late night number one for nine straight years. Colbert even 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:59.520 joked that he might become the first host in history 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:01.160 to get camp Wall in first place. 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:04.920 So this isn't a story about failure. It's a story 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:07.880 about doing almost everything right and still reaching an ending 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:12.160 you didn't choose. And honestly, that's the scarier story, because 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:14.760 we all like to believe that if we work hard enough, 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:18.640 become good enough, or stay grateful enough, the things we 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:19.680 love will keep going. 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:25.839 And life doesn't really work that way. So I'm gonna 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.240 take it back for a second. I was a political 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:32.040 science and communications double major. I spent a lot of 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:36.000 time studying television. There's more to learn than you would think, 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.120 and one thing I learned is that Late Night was 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:42.639 never really about the jokes. It was about the company. 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:46.080 Because for decades, millions of Americans ended their day with 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:50.960 the same familiar voice at the same familiar hour, Johnny Carson, 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:55.760 David Letterman, Stephen Colbert. They weren't just watching a show, 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:59.480 they were participating in a ritual. Back then, we all 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:02.480 watched together. There were only a handful of channels. The 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:06.239 monologue at the beginning became a national conversation because the 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:09.639 nation was actually watching the same thing at the same time. 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:12.880 And today I don't think the audience has disappeared. It's 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:15.840 just scattered. One person watches a clip at two PM, 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:19.200 and other watches on TikTok before bed. Someone else sees 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:21.519 it three days later because the algorithm decided to show 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.560 it to them. A joke watched alone on your phone 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:27.960 is a fundamentally different experience than a joke watched together 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:31.640 at eleven thirty five PM with millions of other people. 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:37.200 One is content, the other is culture. So what ended 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:39.480 wasn't just a television show. It was one of the 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:43.160 last rituals that we had for being together, even while 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:45.920 we were apart. And if that doesn't make sense. Think 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:50.120 about your time during COVID. Those late night shows, even 0:03:50.160 --> 0:03:54.000 when they were virtual, kept us together even while we 0:03:54.040 --> 0:04:00.720 were apart. And that brings me to today's guest. Ariel 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:04.760 Duma spent more than a decade writing that ritual. She 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.240 was head writer of The Late Show with Stephen Colbert, 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:10.360 earning thirteen Emmy nominations across The Late Show and The 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:14.400 Colbert Report, and she just lived through its ending. So 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:16.720 today she's pulling back the curtain not just on what 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.159 it's like when your dream job ends, but on what 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:22.800 actually mattered all along, On finding your voice in a 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:26.880 room full of comedy legends, on navigating imposter syndrome, taking 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:30.039 creative risks, and realizing that even a dream job is 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:33.760 still a job until the people make it something more. 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:36.000 I think that is the most important thing in this 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:39.120 specific career, in this specific industry, because it is so 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:43.599 hard and soul crushing. So if it's not fun, you're 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:46.320 going to turn into dust. You have to have a 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:47.920 good time, and that's contagious. 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:52.960 The institution ended, the ritual ended, the lights went out, 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:56.760 with the friendships, the joy, the laughs, the rooms she 0:04:56.800 --> 0:05:02.680 built with those people. Well could cancel that, Maybe that's 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:06.120 the lesson. You don't get to choose how most things end, 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:09.200 but you do get to choose what you take with you. 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:12.960 So here's the question I'm throwing to you today. What 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:16.040 if the secret to a great career isn't grinding harder, 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:21.240 but having more fun. It's time to question everything with 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:34.680 Ariel Duma. So, Ariel, for more than a decade, you 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:37.000 have been one of the people helping us process the 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.200 world through comedy at the Late Show with Stephen Colbert, 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:42.760 and I think for years your life had rhythm and 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:47.080 pitch and you would rewrite and tape and repeat. What 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:49.840 is the strangest part of waking up and realizing that 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:51.920 nobody needs a monologue from you tonight? 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.320 The strangest thing is being so disconnected from what is 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.800 going on in the world unless I actively seek it 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:03.839 out or I stumble across it on social media. I'm 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:09.320 not actively digesting and processing the national conversation every morning, 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:14.120 and it'll be exactly a month two days ago, and 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:16.320 I can't tell if I miss it. 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:18.200 I mean I miss the people. I missed the process. 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:20.359 For the first couple of weeks, I was like, great, 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:22.239 I don't need I do not need to be bothered 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:26.960 to explain the strait of Hormuz again, Like I don't 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:33.279 need to have to find some relatable emotion about that situation, Yeah, 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:35.960 and then explain it with jokes. So that's nice, But 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:38.040 I actually I think I'm starting to miss it. I'm 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:39.080 starting to get a little itchy. 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:40.240 Yeah. 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:43.600 I remember when I stopped doing entertainment news. I felt 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:46.440 such a relief that my brain wasn't full of like 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:50.000 what Justin Bieber and Selena Gomez and Kim Kardashian were 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.840 doing and wearing and eating. Yeah, and it made space 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:55.200 for all this other stuff. Are you feeling that at all? 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:58.320 Yeah? I I am. 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:03.880 I actually need to I think preface everything, this entire experience, 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.400 the Late Show ending as an institution, our Late Show 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:12.600 with Stephen Colbert, ending my illustrious TV career as a 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:16.200 head writer, supervising producer coming to an end. I haven't 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:19.840 had time to mourn and process it because a week, 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.400 almost exactly a week after the show ended, my father 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:28.520 in law died suddenly. And he I mean shout out 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:31.960 to Judge Larry Ecker. He was pillar of his community, 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:36.360 larger than life, actually, very tall, big mustache guy, was 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:38.640 a supreme court justice in the state of New York, 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:44.840 came to last episode, funniest, best user of profanity, adored. 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:46.720 By everyone in his community and community, and it's like. 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:53.320 Larry's gone, and to be I actually think that to 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:55.520 be thinking about things like what are we doing with 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:58.480 our lives? What are we doing to make meaning in 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:00.720 our lives for other people? What are we doing to 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:02.960 have fun? Because like Larry love to have fun, even 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:05.800 when he's in the Westchester County courtroom, like deciding on 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.040 a family law case. He's like a fun guy. And 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:13.880 I think that all of those feelings are I think 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.760 asking those questions and being in this weird period of 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:22.960 grief have helped me to not dwell, not dwell on 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.480 the loss of the Late Show, even though I know 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:27.600 it's also going to hit me, I think in probably 0:08:27.640 --> 0:08:29.240 a weird way in the middle of the grocery store 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:31.960 at some random moments, going to. 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:33.920 But you've had so much transition, it sounds like I 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:34.760 didn't know about. 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:36.720 Yeah, I'm sorry to spring that on you, but it's 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:43.240 just been devastating and I'm just like excited to talk 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.320 about the Late Show, but also to talk sort of 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:47.280 larger about. 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:49.600 Like what are we doing with our lives? What's meaningful? 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:54.000 And what is our goal with our art and with 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:57.160 our work and with our daily practice of living. 0:08:57.760 --> 0:08:59.560 What's our goal here? What are we doing? 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:00.160 Know? 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:02.000 Well, it's all intertwined. 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.160 I think art focuses our attention, and artists are so 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:09.080 valuable because they see things before we all do. I 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:10.359 put you in that category. 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.600 Oh thank you, So I sort of have this feeling 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.040 art might come out of all of what you're feeling 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:16.480 right now. 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:18.480 Oh thank you. I hope. 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:22.200 So it's fun that you say. It's very flattering of 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:23.920 you to say that, because most days were like oh 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:26.800 Trump's But you know, it's just like there was so 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:30.920 much about this administration that is just unintentionally funny on 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:33.400 their part, like the fact that his hand was so 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:35.760 banged up and he keeps the keeping like he shakes 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:39.360 so many hands of brave Americans and it's like, okay, 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.760 but he's like got a hematoma on that he's covering 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:44.760 up with like pancake makeup. 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:46.920 It's really funny. 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.000 The fact that they haven't taken the tarps down from 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:54.360 the Kennedy Center to like Hut. The news at times 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.559 was so funny on its own that it was difficult 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:00.600 to make jokes about. You know, that's interesting that it was, 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:02.559 like you if I had written this as part of 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:06.640 a pilot or if this you know, people at the 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.040 beginning of this administration would talk about like, oh, this 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:12.439 is like veep almost the fact that this the reflecting 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:15.920 pool renovation was such a big friggin deal, and then 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:19.040 a couple weeks later, it's like peeling off, and yeah, 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:21.079 it's very funny anyway. 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.800 So I want to talk about all the meaningful things, 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:26.800 but I do have to ask you about your wrap 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:31.720 party first, because it made headlines. The dress code was 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:34.439 fired in festive. Yes, so I have a hard time 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:36.520 knowing what casual chic is. How do you dress for 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:39.280 fired in festive? Oh, fired in festive? 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:42.520 I think it really like let our staff feel whatever 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:43.559 they wanted to feel in a. 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:44.600 Fun, loud way. 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:46.480 So for some people that was like for a lot 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:48.760 of the guys on this stuff, bless their hearts, it 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:50.400 was like they are going to wear their one nice 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.040 party shirt, you know, and that's like that's what their 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:55.880 attire is going to be. For women, you know, it 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:58.720 was it was basically cocktail, but it felt kind of 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:01.920 happ a angry like there was sort of this like 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:05.240 zesty fury running through all of our blood that I 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:07.240 think was that's what that's what people were. 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:08.080 But I will say, you. 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:11.160 Know what's funny. We all were black. Everyone wore black, 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:14.199 all the all the staff. Rightly, most people were black. 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.720 That's just what you were feeling. That was a manifestation. Yeah, 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:20.240 and the funeral, you should, I mean, that's sorry. 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:20.760 That show. 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:24.680 The show that day was extremely difficult. There were a 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:27.000 lot of moving pieces that a lot of big clubs, 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:28.560 and there were a lot of writing to do. 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:31.160 Billy Crystal what oh my god. 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:36.840 Amazing every I mean, Paul McCartney, the big finish. So 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:39.640 we were all working our real jobs that last day, 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:42.920 Like it was a hard regular show if it was 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:43.640 a special show. 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:46.760 But then so then we didn't really go get glam. 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:49.840 We all ran upstairs and like hiked on our spanks 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:52.360 and our offices, and when we came out of our offices, 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:53.079 everyone was. 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:55.240 Like wearing black, and I was like it was like 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:55.720 a little. 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:58.920 Spooky that's actually really interesting. Well, it was the most 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:01.160 memorable moment for you of the night. 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:06.120 I just like there were several like John Batiste on 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:10.360 the dance floor, with his family. Was great looking seeing 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:13.199 like those celebrities and then seeing like all the graphics 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:16.800 guys together talking in a cluster, like mixed in with them. 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:20.480 And then and no one felt like weird. 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:22.120 That sometimes when you're at a party where there's a 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:26.440 lot of famous people, you feel strange or you feel 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:28.839 like I can't really talk to anyone. It really felt 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.720 like our party, and there were some special guests. But 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:35.080 I think the most beautiful moment of the night was 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:38.280 when the show in real time started. It was eleven 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:42.560 thirty five and they had it projected on the wall 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:44.920 of the building next door, and everyone there was a 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.800 hush fell over the room and everyone turned and looked 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:48.720 and saw that. 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:50.400 That was it. That was our last show airing in 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.240 real time, and that was very poignant. 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.640 You posted that you released a primal SOB when you 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.520 finished the last taping and you said the job changed life. 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:04.120 So take away the head writer title and the glamour 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.520 of Late Night and tell me about the biggest impact 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:09.520 it had on you. Is there a piece of you 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:12.040 that wouldn't have existed without that show? 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:12.720 Oh? 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:17.920 Yeah, absolutely, And it kind of came from Stephen himself, 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:19.520 and it came within the first few weeks of writing 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:23.800 for The Colbert Report really and it is it. It 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:27.440 really changed everything. I joined the Colbertraport I was the 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:31.280 only woman writer on staff. The show had already announced 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:33.080 that it was ending, you know, and the show had 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:37.160 won Emmy's and Peabodies, and it was like a big deal. 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:39.679 And it was like a very cool, hard place to work. 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:41.480 It was like grad school. It felt like going being 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:44.160 thrown into the middle of a semester and I had 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:44.760 to get in that room. 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:46.160 And some of these men are like big. 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:48.360 They were like this roomful of men and they were big, 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:51.000 and I like was so terrified to. 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:53.480 Pitch and tell me like hi, I thought something that 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:54.000 was funny. 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:56.520 And so a few weeks into the job, Stephen calls 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:58.920 me to his office and goes, I'm so happy you're here, 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:00.959 and I want to hear more from you. I want 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:04.040 to I want you to pipe up. I need to 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:05.600 do to get me a little bit more like he's 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:08.280 had in this like very kind, gentle way. But it 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.400 made me realize, like, oh yeah, yeah, I need to 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:13.520 take up more space. And that is the number one 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:17.080 piece of advice I give anyone, but mostly women or 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:19.480 people of color or anyone who's not straight white man 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.720 in comedy is to like get in a room and 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:26.360 physically make yourself a little bit bigger. If you can't 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:27.680 do that with your voice, you need to do it 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:29.480 with your body, and you need to do it with 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:31.920 your jokes, and you need to take big wild swings. 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:33.960 You need to read the room obviously, like don't go nuts. 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:37.000 But and since then, I feel like I've gotten a 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:43.320 lot bossier. Well, I find that really interesting because historically 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:47.120 women in comedy have not. 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:50.520 Been treated very well. 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:53.920 You know, I think it's I see it in comedy 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.520 clubs still because I go all the time in LA 0:14:56.640 --> 0:15:00.520 or New York when I'm here and there's just less 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:05.520 women comics. Yeah, and it's a it's a tough It's 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:07.040 not really like it's a tough environment. 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:09.000 I think it's a numbers thing. 0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:10.880 Like if there were more women on stage, or in 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:14.720 spaces where there are more women on stage, or more 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:19.680 like non straight white men on stage, like you know 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:21.800 in the Brooklyn comedy scene, like that can be a 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:26.160 more welcoming place. Not always, but it's funny and enraging 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:28.160 to me because like women are the ones who's like 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:29.600 spend all the household money. 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:31.720 Who they we buy tickets to things? 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:33.840 You know, it's like we oh, people go with their 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:36.360 husbands and boyfriends or whatever to comedy clubs, but like 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.240 the lineup is, like, I don't know, women are still 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:42.120 in certain comedy spaces seen as like a flavor of 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:44.120 person and not the main kind of person. 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:48.720 So you don't like being called a woman in comedy though, 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:51.520 I yeah, I guess I wouldn't. It's it is what 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:51.960 I am. 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:55.240 But I feel like you would never call men in 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:57.520 comedy a man in comedy, just like you guys don't 0:15:57.520 --> 0:15:59.560 get asked like what is it like being a working dad? 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.560 You know, like no one has asked that, Like, but 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.000 what is it like? Fucking great? 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.760 Because like probably someone else who like does a lot 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:09.880 of the parenting. 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:12.360 You know, yeah, a man in welding? What is it 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:14.640 like being a man in the welding arena? 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:18.680 You know, totally, It's like being a man in medicine, 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.640 like a male a doctor doctuh you. 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:36.320 Know, it's a qualifier, Yeah, it is. I'm going to 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:39.680 assume that you have seen hacks. Can I assume that? 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.880 Yeah? This honestly, this last season I haven't finished because 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:47.160 it was like the show was ending, it hit too 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:50.280 close to home when she's she's running that show, and 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:53.400 I was, I, I love that show. 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:56.640 My god, I love that show so much. We have 0:16:56.680 --> 0:16:59.600 an amazing producer on this show, and we watch it 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:02.600 together and then discuss it after, and I think so 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:06.200 much of what happens in that show that plays out 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:11.000 between Deborah and Ava captures what it is. 0:17:10.720 --> 0:17:12.879 To be in late night. And it's not just about 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:13.480 being funny. 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:16.919 It's about ego and timing and power and stamina and 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.040 who gets blamed when something doesn't work. As somebody who's 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:24.280 actually lived inside the machine, which is few and far between, 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.520 what do you think that show gets right? And about 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:29.160 what it takes to survive in comedy. 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.679 One of the things that was so on point was 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.359 the conversation they have, I think in this most recent 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.800 season at the beginning of their work, that is, who 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:41.000 are we doing these jokes for? Are we doing in 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.880 for Middle America? Are we doing the smarter, more elevated thing. 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:45.760 And it's like. 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:50.680 An important lesson of like, you cannot write off your 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:53.200 audience and you can't write off what actually is going 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:56.399 to be funny in a room full of five hundred 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.560 people and honestly, what's going to be funny in a 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:02.960 room five hundred people is like, sometimes it's the most 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:05.760 like direct, clear joke and then like a little. 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:07.160 Twist on it or something unexpected. 0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:12.240 It's not going to be like a weird, meandering, very clever, 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:15.320 thinky thing that you think is funny. 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:18.120 I have so many jokes that have failed because. 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:21.360 I thought I was like, this is a delicious commentary 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:22.640 and it's a little weird, and. 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:24.439 It's like, no, no one wants to hear that. 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:29.080 I mean they do, maybe I do, but you have 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:31.920 to you're not doing you're not pandering to the audience, 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:35.480 but you're really reading the room and seeing what people 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.760 want to hear right now, you know you're considering them. Yeah, 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:42.119 is that hard when you're in this sort of like 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:42.959 echo chamber. 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:45.800 What kind of echo chamber? I think when you're in 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:46.720 a writer's room. 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:50.200 Oh, like, even if you have different life experience, there's 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:53.479 a certain type of funny come on, okay, exactly, Like, 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:56.240 and there's things that we get obsessed with as writers. 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.200 Yes, that are not what anyone else would be obsessed 0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:01.040 with it. Are you able to decipher that now? 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:01.320 No? 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:02.320 It's hard? 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:05.120 Well, I think that's the reason we write as a community. 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:08.280 We write as a group, and we have a dozen 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:12.359 staff writers. We have several you know, kind of supervisor 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:14.960 senior writers. And then the last past the monologue is 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:20.399 Stephen and the EP and it if only one person 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:23.200 knew how to make that room laugh, you would only 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:25.960 need that one person to write the monologue or write 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:29.240 the show. But it really takes rehearsals, and no one 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:30.639 knows how to do this. No one knows how to 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:33.920 do this job right every time, which is awesome. It's 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:37.960 like failing, failing on purpose or just generating and not 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:41.440 caring how much you fail is the number one skill 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:42.520 needed to do this job. 0:19:42.880 --> 0:19:47.240 So one of my favorite moments of HACKS is something 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:49.479 I want to ask you about specifically because of your 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:53.800 life experience. Even manipulates her way into becoming head writer 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:57.200 for Debor and Deborah is too scared to let two 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.359 women be the face of failure in late Night. Yeah, 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:03.600 when you became head writer, did you fail feel responsibility 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:04.359 for bringing more. 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:06.359 People into the room with you? 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:09.000 No, because by that point more people had been brought 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:11.959 into the room and that was awesome. Like and by 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:15.399 the end, our I'm proud that our staff was like 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.480 really diverse in all kinds of ways, and I think 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:21.399 it really made the show funnier, and it made the 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:22.200 room funnier. 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:24.760 And we didn't always all. 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:27.240 Get each other's references, but in that same way where 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:28.920