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Speaker 1: The Hunting Collective is presented by Element. I guess I

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Speaker 1: grew up on an older role. Hey, everybody, welcome this

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Speaker 1: episode one the Hunting Collective. I have, of course, as

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Speaker 1: always has been O'Brien, and we were joined by Phil

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Speaker 1: t Engineers. Say hello Philip, Hello Ben. How are you

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Speaker 1: doing over there, sir? Pretty good? Pretty good. We're talking

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Speaker 1: about this earlier. I said I was doing fine, um,

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Speaker 1: which I feel like doesn't convey anything particularly negative or positive.

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Speaker 1: I'm just doing I'm average, I'm doing fine. Just just okay.

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Speaker 1: Just you will know, because we talked about this too, okay,

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Speaker 1: I feel it has like a negative connotation. So he

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Speaker 1: has someone how they're doing. They're like, I'm doing okay,

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Speaker 1: you're then they're not doing okay. You start to worry

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Speaker 1: about them a little bit exactly. Yeah, let me start

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Speaker 1: to worry about the fine. And I feel like that's

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Speaker 1: that's what the word I chose, That's that's the one

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Speaker 1: I want. I'm going with. All right, Well, moving forward,

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Speaker 1: this is gonna be a fine show. I say that

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Speaker 1: with a positive context. But this show is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by the wonderful folks at Element. A. Hunting Collective

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Speaker 1: is presented by Element. They are my and Phils go

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Speaker 1: to electrically drink Option, especially when I'm out in the field. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: when Phil gets out in the field and you can

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Speaker 1: go to drink L M n T dot com slash

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Speaker 1: meat Eater, we need you to go over there and

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Speaker 1: check everything out that's there, learn about Element, and support

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Speaker 1: the folks that support us, because without them, this show

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Speaker 1: doesn't go anywhere. So thank you for listening and help

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Speaker 1: us out drink Element dot com slash meat Eater. Now

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Speaker 1: we trudge forward now today what we have to do Phil?

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Speaker 1: What how many emails did I tell you I got

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Speaker 1: on the publish your episode episode one? Uh close to

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Speaker 1: four hundred. Yeah, and it's only been you know, to

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Speaker 1: to this record. It's only been about six days and

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Speaker 1: we aired it. Um. We did build it up quite

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Speaker 1: a lot. Um. I think it delivered in some ways,

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Speaker 1: in other ways not so much. But we're going to

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Speaker 1: continue this conversation today with Brian Lynn from the Sportsman's Alliance.

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Speaker 1: He works in the communication world over there and he

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Speaker 1: works on animal rights and animal rights issues on on

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Speaker 1: the sportsman side as a defender of of what we

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Speaker 1: do on a daily basis and if you don't know

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Speaker 1: about Sportsman's Alliance, We've had Brian and on before, but

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Speaker 1: if you don't know, you can go to Sports's Alliance

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Speaker 1: dot organ check them out. You should do that before

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Speaker 1: you listen to Brian to get a good idea of

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Speaker 1: what they do. I'll just sum it up as to

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Speaker 1: say very quickly that they are in the weeds on

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Speaker 1: some of the issues that are pushed inside and outside

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Speaker 1: of the courtrooms and ballot and in the ballot boxes

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Speaker 1: um of the US. And they're defending hunting, trapping, fishing,

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Speaker 1: Second Amendment and everything in between. So I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: say that that Ryan is the antithesis of Paulish here,

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Speaker 1: but he certainly has seen some of the more egregious

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Speaker 1: cases or serious cases of this uh animal rights ideology

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Speaker 1: and vegan ideology in the modern sense, coming to fruition

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Speaker 1: in the courtroom, coming to the fruition on the ballot box.

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Speaker 1: I think it's an important progression of the conversation from

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Speaker 1: last week to have Brian on and talk about what

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Speaker 1: he's seen and how serious he feels. Um some of

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Speaker 1: these issues are because this emails phil Um. Only a

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Speaker 1: few of them were about pooping in the woods, um,

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Speaker 1: which is good, but we seem to have a lot

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Speaker 1: of that going around, and we're gonna once again refrain

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Speaker 1: from telling you a story about that in this week's

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Speaker 1: not a Sharp Moment. Play the jingle, phil Sharp not

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Speaker 1: to sharp moment, so you don't have to before we

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Speaker 1: get to this story, Philip, do you feel like we

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Speaker 1: should put a moratorium on pooping in the woods stories? Especially?

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Speaker 1: I thought we already did that. I feel like we

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Speaker 1: kind of we ched closer towards that because we had,

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Speaker 1: you know, we had some some people saying that they

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be guests on the show because I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to follow a good pooping in the wood story, which

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Speaker 1: I feel like is short sighted, very short sighted. But

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Speaker 1: you know, what should we do here? A bit of

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Speaker 1: a controversy. I I think it's obvious we just we

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Speaker 1: stopped reading the poop stories. I thought we agreed on this.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like you're not ready to commit. I'm not

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Speaker 1: ready to commit. And there's some good ones. There's some

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Speaker 1: good ones in there, and I just don't know what

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Speaker 1: to do. But we're gonna We're gonna work on it. Um.

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Speaker 1: But you guys keep doing your thing and We had

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Speaker 1: a listener right in today who who briefly is this

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Speaker 1: maybe this is breaking the moratorium and even to tell

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Speaker 1: what what had written in it and we need to

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Speaker 1: get to the winner this week anyway. But he had

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Speaker 1: he had listened to the show, he had listened to

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Speaker 1: Phil's story, had listened to many of your stories out

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Speaker 1: there about pooping in the woods, and he had uh

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Speaker 1: strategized a way to poop in the woods. But he

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Speaker 1: didn't work. He actually, from the advice he's gained from

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Speaker 1: this podcast, uh shipped down the back of his pants

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Speaker 1: and pete in the front. Uh. And that's a massive failure,

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Speaker 1: my expertly. So maybe we should stop telling the stories

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Speaker 1: altogether because it's leading to disasters in the woods for

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Speaker 1: these people. Phil, that is that is not your fault.

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Speaker 1: That is not my fault. I feel this. This guy,

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Speaker 1: this guy just has issues. Yeah, I mean, it's not

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Speaker 1: that hard a thing to do. Number one, number two?

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Speaker 1: Uh so yeah, I don't know. I digress. Well, you

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Speaker 1: need to move on. As always here on the show,

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Speaker 1: we have Michael P. Tack and thank you Michael for

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Speaker 1: putting the spelling of your or the the phonetic spelling

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Speaker 1: of your last name and the email. Otherwise I would

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Speaker 1: have got it way wrong. But Michael writes in and

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Speaker 1: he says he's a serious listener in the show, and

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Speaker 1: he says, and a new hunter, he says. A couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago, after having dabbled in hunting for a

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Speaker 1: few years, I decided that it was time to dive

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Speaker 1: in and apply for my first big game tax. That year,

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Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to draw my first choice tag

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Speaker 1: ar trimule deer in the mountains of southern Utah. I

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Speaker 1: started preparing for my season immediately, shooting after work most evening,

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Speaker 1: scouting and consuming all of the helpful honey media I

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Speaker 1: could find. Being early in my career and on a

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Speaker 1: tight budget, I decided to save some money and only

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Speaker 1: purchased a half a dozen arrows. After months of practice

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Speaker 1: with my bow, and with just a couple of weeks

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Speaker 1: left before opening day, I began shooting with my broadheads.

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Speaker 1: In short order, my broadheads had eviscerated my target, and

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Speaker 1: soon my arrows are passing clean through piercing the wooden

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Speaker 1: safety backdrop I had built, and they were breaking. Come

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Speaker 1: opening day, I had only three arrows remaining, just enough

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Speaker 1: to take a shot and still have an insurance policy.

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Speaker 1: Seems okay so far, Um, we've all been there. Don't worry, Michael,

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Speaker 1: I have a feeling it's gonna go bad, though, he says.

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Speaker 1: When it came time for my hunt, I met up

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Speaker 1: with a few friends who are far more experienced, but

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Speaker 1: both were only carrying ELK tags. We set our plans

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Speaker 1: and would split up each day, meeting periodically to report

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Speaker 1: the day's events. After a couple of days on the mountain,

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Speaker 1: my frustration began to grow and my focus waned. And

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Speaker 1: this state of frustration, I decided to shoot a squirrel

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Speaker 1: and cook it up for lunch one day, But in

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Speaker 1: doing so I managed to lose the knock of the

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Speaker 1: arrow with which I shot the squirrel, now down two arrows,

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Speaker 1: but he did have a squirrel out of the deal,

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Speaker 1: which is better than totally missing, he says. The following

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Speaker 1: day was the last day of the hunt. I was

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Speaker 1: walking back to camp for lunch and to meet up

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Speaker 1: with my buddies. As I walked along the creek, I

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Speaker 1: approached a group of trees where a pine squirrel decided

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Speaker 1: to greet me with excited chattering. Hungry for food and success,

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Speaker 1: I decided this squirrel would be lunch, and launched an

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Speaker 1: arrow towards it, narrowly missing above its head and sticking

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Speaker 1: directly into the tree behind. As though mocking me, the

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Speaker 1: scuorel ran up and down the base of the tree,

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Speaker 1: chittering and chattering at me, before stopping back in the

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Speaker 1: same spot to watch me and challenge me again. I

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Speaker 1: knocked another arrow, and this time brought the taunting of

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Speaker 1: the pine squirrel to an end, lodging my last arrow

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Speaker 1: into another tree. As I approached the squirrel and began

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Speaker 1: to attempt to dislodge my arrows from the tree, I

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Speaker 1: caught a glimpse of movement just beyond the cluster of

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Speaker 1: trees in which I knelt. A mule deer buck, full

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Speaker 1: bodied and with deep v fork dandlers, recently free of

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Speaker 1: their velvet, slowly moved through the clearing beyond the trees

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Speaker 1: and stopped perfectly broadside no more than thirty yards away.

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Speaker 1: His head was down as he browsed on the grass

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Speaker 1: of the cool, shady meadow. With a perfect opportunity at

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Speaker 1: a beautiful mule deer buck. I needed one of my

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Speaker 1: arrows to get unstuck and fast. I tried to stay low,

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Speaker 1: and began wiggingly arrow, attempting to free it from to

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Speaker 1: fill my first tag. Being ever weary, the buck picked

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Speaker 1: up of my movement and almost immediately started away, likely

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Speaker 1: all the way to the next unit. By the time

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Speaker 1: I got my arrows dislodged, I returned into my car

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Speaker 1: with nothing but a small, chewy pine squirrel and a

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Speaker 1: valuable lesson. And the years since, I've kept the tail

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Speaker 1: of that squirrel on a string tied to my hunting pants,

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Speaker 1: a reminder to stay focused, never go into the field unprepared,

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Speaker 1: and never let the taunting pesty rodents get to me again.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for reading this, and I hope anyone who hears

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Speaker 1: this can take away the same valuable lessons I learned.

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Speaker 1: With those lessons in mind, I've continued to pursue big

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Speaker 1: game and just this year successfully killed my first big

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Speaker 1: game animals, two mule deer during Utah's early antler this season,

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Speaker 1: play the jingle, Phil, not the sharp moment you don't

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Speaker 1: have alright, Phil Commentarybody, what do you feel about Michael?

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Speaker 1: You gotta keep your eyes on the prize. Yeah, his

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Speaker 1: eyes were not on the prize. Yeah. Not the dumbest

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Speaker 1: thing in the world. But you know, when you release

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Speaker 1: that final arrow after that squirrel, you gotta know that

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Speaker 1: a deer is gonna step out. You gotta know that

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Speaker 1: you got I actually try to trick elk when I

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Speaker 1: dress up like I'm grouse hunting. But when I'm really

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Speaker 1: elk hunting, I try to trick them because I know

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Speaker 1: that they'll probably come walking out in front of me

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Speaker 1: if they think I'm grouse shunning. That's how it works,

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Speaker 1: and vice versa. I dress up like I'm el hunting

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Speaker 1: when I go grouse hunting, so I could you know

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Speaker 1: so that the birds will will come close? Um, but anyway,

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean that's like, I'm not a superstitious guy,

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Speaker 1: but I totally believe in that in that method. Yes,

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Speaker 1: thank you. Hopefully I'm starting a movement. People will be

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Speaker 1: dressed up all kinds of different ways out in the woods. Um. Well,

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Speaker 1: thank you Michael for writing in and because I hope

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Speaker 1: you bought some more arrows. While we can't send you arrows,

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Speaker 1: we can send you a field sharpener from work Sharp.

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Speaker 1: Go to work Sharp's YouTube page if you want to

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Speaker 1: check out their weekly sharpening tips and all the other

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Speaker 1: content they have over there. At work Sharp. Thanks again,

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Speaker 1: thanks to them. Support works are so we can keep

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Speaker 1: doing this show for you. Moving on, moving on all

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Speaker 1: bye bye the bye. Um. Michael has a PostScript in

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Speaker 1: his email. He says, ps Utah still has quite a

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Speaker 1: few Sizzlers. Interesting. Interesting, Um, I mean if if Sizzler

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Speaker 1: were to survive anywhere, I think Uta sounds like the place. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if we have we have a break free from Mediator

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Speaker 1: and have like the hunting Collective offices, it might be

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Speaker 1: in Utah and it might be right across the street

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Speaker 1: from a Sizzler or maybe inside of a sizzler. And

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Speaker 1: that's how I would lure you away to come with me. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's what I want to offer you, all right, tb

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Speaker 1: D You'll see all right, Well, listen, we have I

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Speaker 1: want to read as many emails is makes sense for

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Speaker 1: for our opening segment here, getting into our envy with

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Speaker 1: Brian Lynn. Brian listened to last week's episode at my

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Speaker 1: urging and UM has a lot to say about what

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Speaker 1: he thinks, and we agree on a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: I will say, fill all the reaction I got, and

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Speaker 1: I'm hundreds of inner net comments d M s and

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Speaker 1: and all these emails, these hundreds of emails, I will

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Speaker 1: say that I can, I would be honest and hopefully

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Speaker 1: people can see this UM and what I've posted online

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Speaker 1: and hear this in last week's episode that I truly

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Speaker 1: remain somewhat open minded to hearing from animal rights activists

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Speaker 1: and vegans on on the points they have to make

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Speaker 1: in terms of the way they see the world. I

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Speaker 1: am fully still open to that. That being said, I

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Speaker 1: have not I did not find um anything much of

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Speaker 1: anything that Paul said to be enlightening, although I enjoyed

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Speaker 1: talking to him and would do it again. UM. And

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Speaker 1: so you'll hear a lot of the a lot of

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Speaker 1: that when we talked to Brian. But I want to

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Speaker 1: let you guys all the way in so many of

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Speaker 1: you had UM very important in points about this, very

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Speaker 1: important things to to impart. So we'll we'll start with that,

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Speaker 1: and then then Phil is going to give at least

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Speaker 1: a minute or two reaction to each email. Hilarious. Here

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Speaker 1: we here we go, Um, Corey Sheep Ship I'll just

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Speaker 1: say is his last names is spelled s H S

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Speaker 1: H E I P. So we'll call it ship. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He says, many thanks for continuing to bring outside perspectives

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Speaker 1: to our pursuit of wild game for the table. It

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Speaker 1: has been and continues to bring me closer to my

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Speaker 1: own understanding why I get up at four thirty chase

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Speaker 1: white tails in the North Carolina Mountains. A recent interview

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Speaker 1: with Paulisher, particularly his own comments about the importance of

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Speaker 1: how intentional we are and seeming to be okay with

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Speaker 1: the lack of knowing how many lives are lost during

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Speaker 1: factory or large scale farming efforts, brought up a mind,

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Speaker 1: brought some mind and quote from Edward Abbey sentiment without

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Speaker 1: action is the ruin of the soul. To say you

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Speaker 1: want to cause quote unquote less unnecessary suffering but doing

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Speaker 1: nothing about it. Epitomizes Abbey's quote remaining willfully ignorant to

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Speaker 1: the deaf you cause, but convincing yourself it wasn't your intention.

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Speaker 1: Ergo it is okay? Is ignor mobile at best? Corey again,

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Speaker 1: that's a good quote from ed Abbey's sentiment without action,

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Speaker 1: it's the ruin of the soul. Um. This goes to

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Speaker 1: what a lot of you have said and what we've

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Speaker 1: said on the show before um hunting and conservation work

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Speaker 1: and caring about the land, and it's some at some level.

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Speaker 1: Ethical farming really is something that allows you to understand

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Speaker 1: the rhythms of of wild places and and the land

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Speaker 1: that which you know that provides for us. So that

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Speaker 1: that is something if you remove yourself for fear of

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Speaker 1: causing death, you kind of you're doomed, in my opinion,

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Speaker 1: you're doomed to to not really understand the balance and

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Speaker 1: the terms like balance and bio diversity. And I think

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Speaker 1: that was pretty true with Paul a lot of levels.

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Speaker 1: He did say he was confused quite a lot. A

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Speaker 1: lot of you commented on that as well. So that's

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Speaker 1: that is one of the things that that we talk

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Speaker 1: about with this idea of a proximity ethic, and we

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Speaker 1: talked about that obviously with Paul as well. And I

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Speaker 1: really have combined this proximity ethic in terms of my

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Speaker 1: eating too to this idea of fair the fair kill ethic.

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Speaker 1: Combining those two things has helped me along over the

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Speaker 1: last year's this, I've kind of developed my own ideas.

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Speaker 1: So appreciate it. Corey. We're moving on now. Uh what what? Wait? Wait? Wait? Phil,

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Speaker 1: do you have any comments? Uh? No, band, You're doing great.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Phil. We'll continue there's a lot of other things,

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Speaker 1: but one, well, you know, there's a lot of compliments

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Speaker 1: sandwiches out there for uh, for the show and for

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Speaker 1: what we talked about. But here's another one. This comes

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Speaker 1: in quite often. Tyler Sock s a U s a

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Speaker 1: U c K. I said, Ben Love the podcast, longtime listener,

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Speaker 1: first time bitcher. I really enjoy the conversation you have

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Speaker 1: with the folks of different ideologies when it comes to

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Speaker 1: eating critters. There is one theme that does come up

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Speaker 1: often in your podcast that doesn't appear to get the

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Speaker 1: nuanced perspective you usually have that being conventional agriculture equals

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Speaker 1: bad combat, particularly factory farming. I live in one of

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Speaker 1: the largest pork producing counties in the USA, and while

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Speaker 1: I do not own livestock myself, I am heavily involved

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Speaker 1: in the maintenance of confinement buildings. Maybe I'm just a

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Speaker 1: hardened bastard, but I just don't see the animal cruelty

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Speaker 1: and or poor living conditions. I've seen the videos on YouTube,

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Speaker 1: like everyone else, showing some work or abusing an animal

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Speaker 1: and agreeing that those instances are terrible, But I believe

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Speaker 1: it's more of an individual ass had problem than an

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Speaker 1: industry problem. I see overwhelmingly farmers that care deeply for

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Speaker 1: their livestock. Even in the confinement building. The buildings are

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Speaker 1: climate controlled, comfortable, and the pigs have food and water

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Speaker 1: at the ready. Also, contrary to popular relief, they just

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Speaker 1: don't stand in their own ship. The floor systems allow

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Speaker 1: the manure to pass through, keeping the animals clean and dry.

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Speaker 1: It is also in the farmer's best interest to keep

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Speaker 1: the pigs comfortable, because of stressed animal will not productively

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Speaker 1: gain weight or be profitable. I highly recommend checking out

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Speaker 1: the Weak Care initiative pork Dot Work slash Weak Care,

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Speaker 1: as it lays out the ethics most producers live by.

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Speaker 1: I'll climb off my soapbox. Tyler, appreciate it, Tyler Man,

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Speaker 1: as always, thank you for listening. Um what I will say.

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Speaker 1: And I wrote this in an email back to Tyler.

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Speaker 1: Tried to try to reply to most of you as possible. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You make a good point, and I don't think when

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Speaker 1: we use the term factory farming, I can see how

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Speaker 1: somebody he was a farmer, even on the medium or

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Speaker 1: large scale, would hear me saying factory farming sucks and

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Speaker 1: want to write an email like that one. I I understand,

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Speaker 1: I understand, and I get that, um. But my disagreement

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Speaker 1: with the factory farming, no matter the semantics of the term,

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Speaker 1: I think it just GOLs a little bit deeper than

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Speaker 1: than the treatment of the animals it's themselves, which of

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Speaker 1: course I want to see those animals treated fairly, but

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Speaker 1: I know I'm gonna eat them anyway. So I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think that that maybe is missing the point, um.

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Speaker 1: And maybe I'm not articulated that this point to this

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Speaker 1: to this point in the show, but I believe, you know,

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Speaker 1: like like we said that that ethics of proximity. So

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Speaker 1: the farther away I am from from the source of

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Speaker 1: my food, the more distant acted I I feel personally

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Speaker 1: from its impacts. So factory farming and and additionally ship

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Speaker 1: large traditional minor crop egg where we get a lot

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Speaker 1: of our soybeans and corners and things. These are these

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Speaker 1: are at some level kind of designed to feed a

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Speaker 1: lot of people in the most efficient way possible. That's

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Speaker 1: what the that's what we're trying to do. We have

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Speaker 1: billions of people in this earth, and we gotta feed

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Speaker 1: them all, um. And we talked about this that has

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Speaker 1: some inherent problems beyond what what Paul and his group

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Speaker 1: might show you in a cube cube of truth. The

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Speaker 1: slaughterhouse videos that we all think are awful, and though

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Speaker 1: they're setting up a straw man that these slaughterhouse videos

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Speaker 1: and some of the worst examples of factory farming are

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Speaker 1: the reality that I don't know. I do know. It's

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Speaker 1: a straw man to to present the worst it's the

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Speaker 1: definition of a straw man to present the worst examples

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Speaker 1: um and paint the entire industry. So I'm definitely not

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Speaker 1: doing that. But what I am saying is um there

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Speaker 1: there's not wrong in the entire industry of quote unquote

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Speaker 1: factory farming, and everyone in it, as you mentioned, isn't wrong.

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Speaker 1: But I'm saying that we need to find alternative ways

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Speaker 1: to solve for this issue we're going to There's not

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Speaker 1: a magic wand I'm not I don't have a magic

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Speaker 1: wand for feeding billions of people. I'm not saying I

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Speaker 1: do UM. I don't work in impossible meats. I'm not

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Speaker 1: an animal rights activist. I don't have I don't want

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Speaker 1: everybody to do what I do, and I don't want

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Speaker 1: everybody to think the way they think. But I will

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Speaker 1: say that regenerative agriculture as we discussed on this show,

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Speaker 1: and hunting as we've obviously discussed on this show, are

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Speaker 1: good starting points to figure this all out. They're good

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Speaker 1: starting points to figure out what the hell do we

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Speaker 1: do about our own eating um and and then how

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Speaker 1: do we solve for pick away at some of the

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Speaker 1: issues of factory farming and large scale efforts to feed

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Speaker 1: a lot of people because they're they're just inherently issues there.

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Speaker 1: So I think I think the animal rights votes are

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Speaker 1: are wrong to use the straw man to convert people

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Speaker 1: into our ideology. But I also think factory farming needs

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Speaker 1: to be addressed as to like, how how is it

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Speaker 1: long what's its long term viability? No matter how you

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Speaker 1: treat the animals, no matter if you put them in

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Speaker 1: a hammock every night and give him a margharita, I

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Speaker 1: don't really care. We have to address the need for

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Speaker 1: factory farms to feed everybody, and everybody's want to go

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Speaker 1: get quick meat and have a nice meal. So I

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Speaker 1: am not above either one of those things. But I

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Speaker 1: am dedicated to too looking at those issues consistently. So

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Speaker 1: I'll get off my soapbox assume that feels good on

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Speaker 1: commenting on that one. Yep, thanks man. We'll continue, We'll continue.

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Speaker 1: Try to keep my answers a little more brief, so

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Speaker 1: you're not here for two hours. Listen to what I

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Speaker 1: gotta say, all right? Next up we have Gus Phote

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Speaker 1: and again, thank you for helping me pronounce your name, Guss,

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Speaker 1: he says Ben Ben Ben. Holy shit. Let me start

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Speaker 1: by saying, I've been a regag there listener to th HC.

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Speaker 1: I absolutely enjoy and appreciate the wide array of topics

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Speaker 1: and controversies you bring up with your audience. In many respects,

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Speaker 1: it's forced me to become more of a critical thinker

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Speaker 1: and give others perspectives outside of my own respect it deserves. Furthermore,

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Speaker 1: I appologizes for the your very open and non aggressive

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Speaker 1: dialogue with the cult leader of anonymous for the voiceless.

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Speaker 1: By the way, his his email is entitled vegan cult leader.

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Speaker 1: But damn, this guy was near impossible to listen to

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Speaker 1: all my long drive home. What makes me call him

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Speaker 1: a cult leader? You ask, It's simple his absolute unwillingness

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Speaker 1: to see the perspective of the other side of the

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Speaker 1: fence and his denial of some of the shortcomings of

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Speaker 1: the so called animal rights movement. He clearly avoids multiple

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Speaker 1: issues that you brought up, such as proximity to food

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Speaker 1: and the devastating environmental impact that massive agriculture could do

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Speaker 1: to our already fragile ecosystems. He seems to contradict himself

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Speaker 1: countlessly through throughout the discussion. Look, I could give two

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Speaker 1: ships if you want to practice veganism, and I completely

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Speaker 1: respect not wanting to calls harm to animals. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: we all feel conflicted as hunters when we take an

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Speaker 1: animal's life. There's always some emotion of remorse. I know

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Speaker 1: I have felt it. Though his position, maybe with good intention,

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Speaker 1: it is irresponsible and totally biased. His delivery is ignorant

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Speaker 1: and totally prejudiced. He makes the beyond meek guy look

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Speaker 1: like a vegetarian messiah. One one last ramp before I

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Speaker 1: sign off, he equates humans who kill animals as animals

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Speaker 1: I eat in nature, animals kill other animals. So hypothetically,

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Speaker 1: if I identified as a grizzly bear and killed elk

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Speaker 1: and deer, are we cool? I'll catch you next week?

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Speaker 1: See you guess, I propose. He also says, PostScript, I

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Speaker 1: propose a new drink to accommodate the salty Gilbert, like

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Speaker 1: the bitter Vegan or the animal hugger. So I think

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Speaker 1: I think we can make up a bitter Vegan. Maybe

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Speaker 1: next week on the show, we'll we'll make up a

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Speaker 1: nice bitter beverage to go with that. I think. You know, Look,

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Speaker 1: Gus is his Uh this commentary here is is not

428
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 1: too far off the mark. You know some of the

429
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 1: things that that Paul and others that we've talked to

430
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 1: in the animal rights world have kind of refused to

431
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 1: answer or tried to answer and fumbled it up. Um, really,

432
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 1: just go to what we said earlier. The foundation of

433
00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 1: this this ideology seems to kind of sway when you

434
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,719
Speaker 1: press upon it any weight at all. This is one

435
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 1: thing that we talked I talked about with Brian Lynn

436
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 1: in the in the upcoming interview here. There there's a

437
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 1: lot of um, a lot of people saying like, why

438
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: is does this guy's important? Why is this particular guys

439
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 1: perview perspective important to me? There are hundreds of thousands

440
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 1: of people that follow this group on social media and

441
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 1: and to his point, even more that follow them in

442
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 1: the in real terms, in terms of dressing up in

443
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: a Viva Vandetta mask and holding up TVs in public squares.

444
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 1: This is not a thing that has no steam. This

445
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: is not a thing that has no pr and promotion,

446
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,680
Speaker 1: and this is not a thing that has no real

447
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: world consequences. And you're you're gonna hear that when we

448
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 1: hear from Brian Lynn in terms of the new Jersey

449
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,080
Speaker 1: bear hunting situation. On that note, man, I have something

450
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 1: really important I need to bring up. That's my that's

451
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: my biggest beef with Paul and Anonymous for the voiceless.

452
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 1: Come on, bring it, Phil, And that is the those

453
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 1: guy fox masks, man, completely unoriginal? What are they doing?

454
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: The first of all, those masks are played out like

455
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,439
Speaker 1: years ago, fifteen years ago. There's already an online group

456
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: called Anonymous and their main iconography is that mask. So

457
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: not only did they take that iconography, they took part

458
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: of the name too. What are we doing here? Come on?

459
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: Would you prefer they were like Darth Vader masks? No? No,

460
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: that's also played out well and yeah kind of not

461
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,679
Speaker 1: not really though, you don't have to connect the goodness

462
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: of Star Wars too, you know, I'll think I'll think

463
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: of a better mask, and I'll give paula Colin. We

464
00:24:58,119 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: gotta we got his contact, we can get back a

465
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: hole to him. Okay, that's that's That was my soap box, rand.

466
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: That was it. That's a commentary on the mask. Oh man.

467
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,520
Speaker 1: Um alright, one more before we get to Brian Lynn.

468
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 1: And again, we've had so many emails. I wanted to

469
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 1: just read something, so hopefully this is entertaining to all

470
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: of you and you get to hear kind of what

471
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 1: some of the listeners think. If it's boring, just fast

472
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: forward to a really interesting interview with Brian uh Bryant Leman,

473
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 1: who we've read some emails from him in the past.

474
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 1: He says, this was a very frustrating episode that really

475
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 1: didn't seem to go anywhere. Paul has boiled down his

476
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 1: point of view into such a narrow field of view

477
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: that he can't see the hypocrisy and holes in his

478
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 1: moral compass. He says the point of his organization just

479
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: do no intentional harm to animals, which seems alright in passing,

480
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,199
Speaker 1: but in his explanations and back and forth with you,

481
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 1: he noted that animals like flies don't deserve as much

482
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: consideration as an elk, and kept comparing to one kilo

483
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 1: of beans or rice to killing an elk. Marginalizing groups

484
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: of animals based and human human perceptions of them seems

485
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: to be a complete violation of animal rights, but because

486
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: it doesn't fit his narrative, it's okay. And when comparing beans,

487
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: race or other crops to harvesting an animal, there is

488
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 1: no quote unquote objective reality in which spraying out a field, planning, growing, harvesting,

489
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: and packaging a certain weight so that's number of calories

490
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 1: of a crop and transporting it to a grocery store

491
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: would be less animal desk than driving to hunting land,

492
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: killing an animal of equivalent weight calorie load, and packing

493
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: it to your freezer. This viewpoint was essentially out of sight,

494
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: out of mind, and he somehow was able to convince

495
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: himself that because he doesn't know how many animals crop

496
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 1: production impacts, that he can assume it's close to zero.

497
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 1: Complete bullshit. Sorry for the rant. I'm sure you are

498
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: in a similar page as I am, but I feel

499
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: you almost let him off too easily. I assume it

500
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 1: has to do with your experience and knowing that no

501
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: matter how much evidence you throw up, people like Paul

502
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: Is usually makes them just believe they're misguided. Point or

503
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: of you even more Bryant Lemon. Um, Again, there's a

504
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,239
Speaker 1: lot of commentary as to like what I could have done,

505
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 1: what I should have done, and I'm sure there's a

506
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 1: lot of other things that I could have thrown out there.

507
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: But to Brian's final point there, I do believe that,

508
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 1: like I said in the intro to the last week's episode,

509
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: treating these people like humans that are well meaning, that

510
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: that are that are ultimately misguided is the way that

511
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 1: I choose to approach this, and I'll continue to approach

512
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: it that way. Um, But I'll also continue to sit

513
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: and think about what I learned and whether it's shifted

514
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: my perspective at all. And ash you'll hear in the

515
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 1: upcoming interview with Brian Lynn, I think my perspective has

516
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 1: only been hardened over these last couple of years of

517
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: exploring these ideas rather than softened or shifted in one

518
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: way or the other. Um. And so here's Brian Lynn

519
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: of Sorce's lines. Enjoy Brian Lynn, what the hell are

520
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: you doing? Man? I don't really know. It's Friday, It's uh,

521
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: just trying to get through the day, drink my coffee,

522
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: taking the animal rights activists. I don't know. Well, listen,

523
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: I have you on for for a lot of reasons,

524
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: chief of which is that I've forced you to listen

525
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 1: to last week's episode. I made you sit through it.

526
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 1: You were drinking what bud lights during this? You made

527
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: me drink three bud lights to get halfway through that. Yeah?

528
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 1: Did you make it all the way through? Did you?

529
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: Did you stop? I stopped? I think is about an

530
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: hour twenty end. You all, y'all were talking a whole

531
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: bunch of rice and stuff, and a lot about became

532
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: more on the bud light at that point. The social

533
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: media contingents definitely noticed the rice. Rice was noticed, and

534
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: I felt like this entire idea logical conversation between two

535
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: people that were on different sides of the fence, could

536
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: never be boiled down to rice. But it seemed like

537
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: in this case rice rice One Now and so I

538
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: just before we get into what's going on in New Jersey,

539
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: because New Jersey is always good for a story if

540
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 1: anything else, glad I don't live there. I'm glad I don't.

541
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: I did live there. You are happy you don't live there? Yeah,

542
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: I live close to there. They have some decent turkey

543
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: hunting from what I remember. Yeah, yeah, turkey deer. I mean,

544
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: and you can get out of the city. If you're

545
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: in mid Jersey or South Jersey, you're good. I mean,

546
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: I had a w m A just fifteen minutes from

547
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 1: the house or so, so that's good. See Jersey. It's

548
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: it's gonna be like a compliments sandwich here. We're gonna

549
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: on the back end we'll row you accompliment too. But

550
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 1: before we get to that, I know everybody is all

551
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: fired up. I got hundreds of emails, I got even

552
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: more d m s. People everybody had a reaction to

553
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: last week's episode, and that makes sense. We've already kind

554
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: of went through some of the emails. We've went through

555
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: some of the specific reaction we wanted to get to.

556
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: But if you guys, Brian's gonna tell you what he

557
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: does here in a Minute's this second time on the podcast,

558
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: But I feel like it's perfect to have you on

559
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: because you deal with this ideology is quote unquote animal

560
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: rights activists and animal rights ideology just about more than

561
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: anybody at the Sports's Alliance UM, both on cultural level

562
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: but also just in a policy, uh level in the

563
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: lawsuits and all the things that we deal with there,

564
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: so quickly did uh tell folks what you do and

565
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: then give them your experience with animal rights. Yeah, So

566
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 1: the Sportsman's Alliance, we've we protect hunting, fishing, trapping nationwide,

567
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: all fifty state legislatures. So you get some bad bills

568
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: that are coming in, introduced by you know, some Chicago

569
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: guy in Illinois, and it impacts the southern Illinois dog

570
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: hunters or deer hunters or whatever. We are the ones

571
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,400
Speaker 1: going to bat calling those guys and trying to explain

572
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,479
Speaker 1: our situation and why it's bad, and uh, if that

573
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 1: doesn't work, then we start playing the political game and

574
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 1: putting pressure on them, working through committees, trying to change

575
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: those those bad parts of the bill, whether it's simple

576
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,479
Speaker 1: language or it's an outright anti hunting bill. Also working

577
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: state and federal court, so you know, Jersey is going

578
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: to be a state lawsuit, we're in the federal would

579
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: be you know, uh, the delisting of wolves and grizzly bears.

580
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: So we worked there and then ballot initiatives such as Montana.

581
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: A couple of years ago, you guys had a trapping

582
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: bill or trapping ballot initiative that ended trapping on public

583
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: lands specifically, and so we headed up. We came in

584
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: and worked with the guys on the ground there, uh

585
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: and you know, find the messaging and worked that whole

586
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: ballot initiative and to defend the right to trap on

587
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:47,719
Speaker 1: public lands. We did that in main a couple of

588
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: times with bear hunting. So we work on those three

589
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: different prongs um to protect hunting and fishing and trapping. Yeah.

590
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: So you've kind of been through the entirety of of

591
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: the reasoning and the perspectives and and both from a

592
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 1: legal sense, but also just from a, like I said,

593
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: philosophical and ideological sense of what we would encounter and

594
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: just all encompassing to be like this animal rights movement,

595
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: the individualism of it, and then you know how it

596
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: manifests itself in public policy. Yeah, and it's always been

597
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: something I've been interested in. I mean, going back to

598
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: when I was at ESPN outdoors dot com. You know,

599
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: I got into this, you know, following their this this

600
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: philosophical or ideological ideas that you know, when you first

601
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 1: talked to him or somebody who doesn't know talks to him,

602
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: it's like Okay, well that sounds you know, plausible and decent,

603
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: and oh you're right, you know, and you start going

604
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: down this whole. But what you're doing is you're only

605
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: taking in one side of the information. You're suspending reality

606
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: and suspending facts, you know, and that's the only way

607
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: these things work. And it's really just an ideological belief system.

608
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: It's you know, basically akin to religion. And you know,

609
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: it has its own radical side that with religion, you

610
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: know that that kind of dovetails there. Yeah, and this

611
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: is my I have a you know, our history of

612
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,320
Speaker 1: this podcast. Folks that listen will know we've had. This

613
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: is our second conversation. Paulisher was our second conversation. What

614
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: I would say is like top level animal rights leaders

615
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,360
Speaker 1: in the community. UM, A lot of people had asked

616
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: after the after listening to the courting of Paul, how

617
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: many people believe that this guy believes is this is

618
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,479
Speaker 1: this is a very radical I mean I describe their

619
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: ideas as radical, but not them, not the group itself,

620
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: because there are hundreds of thousands of people that follow

621
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: these people on social that you know, thousands of people

622
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: across the world that take part in demonstrations on their behalf.

623
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: It's part of the organization. So it's no small potatoes.

624
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,959
Speaker 1: It's not just one guy UM with some ideas that

625
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: most of the listeners of this podcast do not believe.

626
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: I would say hopefully all, but most don't believe in UM.

627
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 1: So it's not that that these ideas that were presented

628
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: last week and had that through a lot of people

629
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 1: for a loop. I mean, most people said I couldn't

630
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: get it through it. I couldn't. I didn't know. I

631
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 1: just Ben, you did a fine job, Thanks for trying,

632
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: But I couldn't do it. Like that was probably if

633
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: I had to, like I said, we've already read some emails,

634
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: but if I had to kind of summarize everything, that's

635
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,240
Speaker 1: what it was. And um, I said I in my replies,

636
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: like you have to listen because this is not just

637
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,439
Speaker 1: a few people, this is hundreds of thousands, just this group,

638
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: this individual group UM espousing this these these ideologies and

639
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: approaches to wildlife and wildlife management and everything else you

640
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: might want to mention. So UM, yeah, and you did

641
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: a good job. I mean, I'll give it to you.

642
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: You were like sin, I don't know what you were

643
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: if you were meditating and and you know, yeah, um

644
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,800
Speaker 1: or what you were doing, but you did a good job,

645
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: and you know you kept talking to him. I I

646
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: listened to it, and it's probably like a marriage counselor

647
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 1: would say that I was, I'm listening to respond, not

648
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: to you know, actually hear him. It is. It's just

649
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: two different worldviews, you know, and so and I'm listening

650
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: to it. I'm I'm listening to these things that he's

651
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: saying to justify his viewpoint, and as he's trying to

652
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: make these points to other people, it is as suspending reality.

653
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,760
Speaker 1: He kept saying, we need to protect and stop taking

654
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: away rights from the animals. Myers responses, what rights do

655
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: animals have in nature? It's not like the wolf goes

656
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: on trial for eating the sheep. You know that's not murder.

657
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: You know, uh, they don't have a right to a trial.

658
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: We're not gonna go, oh, hey, you know you're you're this.

659
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: Rights are a human construct, not a natural construct. And

660
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: he's applying a human construct to the animal kingdom. You know,

661
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: it's not a it's not Disneyland. These animals aren't out

662
00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 1: there playing like Thumper and Bambi. It's either b you

663
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: and I have talked about this before, and I always thought, Man,

664
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: is it too easy to say that it's a motion

665
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: over facts? Is it? Is that something I've always thought

666
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,240
Speaker 1: about myself, is that am I making it too easy

667
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 1: for myself to be like this all emotion? These people

668
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: haven't thought this through, I can tell you, and I've

669
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 1: said this to people that I've asked that I really respect.

670
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 1: After talking to these individuals like going, I went to

671
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 1: the Dingo Den and Berkeley, California and talked to an

672
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: animal rights activists. I was in the Dingo Den and

673
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: sat there with him and they filmed me, and I've

674
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 1: filmed them and we recorded a podcast. I talked to

675
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: the leader of Anonymous for the Voiceless, I with an

676
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 1: open mind, as hopefully everyone could hear like I was.

677
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,959
Speaker 1: I wanted to demonstrate a objectively open mind to what

678
00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,839
Speaker 1: they had to say. And I didn't. I didn't want

679
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 1: to be right. I wanted to hear and listen and understand.

680
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: And when I come out the other side, I think

681
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 1: I was right all along. It is emotion over facts

682
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: and reality and and some of the conversations we've had

683
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 1: in the past and and about this, I think stand

684
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 1: still stand to me that I think they were proven

685
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: to be true, and and that's that's. You can listen

686
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: to these conversations we've had on this show, and I

687
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: think it should prove to you that a lot of

688
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: this is not based on objectively looking at wildlife and

689
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: human interaction and saying we want that to be better.

690
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 1: We want everybody to get out of it what they can.

691
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: We want the value systems to stand. We want animals

692
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 1: to have the highest possible value within our society, and

693
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 1: we want these cohabitation to be as as streamline and

694
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 1: natural as possible. That's not what's happening. Um in those cases,

695
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: it just is Um. It's the it's the emotion of

696
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: like you said, you're you're applying this human construct to

697
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: the idea of what an animal is and how we

698
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: should interact with it, and it's just it just doesn't work.

699
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 1: It's too easy to pick apart. Yeah, you know, and

700
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: it's just mind boggling when you try to talk to

701
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:03,280
Speaker 1: these guys and a resort with greater and greater levels

702
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 1: of emotion to get it across, and then they'll end

703
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: up vilifying you eventually, you know. So it's like it's yeah,

704
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: I mean it's oil and water, and we're just not

705
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: going to see eye to eye. We need to listen

706
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: to them to understand where they're coming from, what their

707
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,479
Speaker 1: arguments are, so we know where to counter, and maybe

708
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: we need to do a better job messaging or understanding

709
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: or where we need to apply our own emotion. You know,

710
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 1: you did a good job trying to explain the hunt,

711
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: but that's that's a nebulous subjective thing that's different for everybody,

712
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 1: including hunters, so it's it's hard to encompass that. Oftentimes

713
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: it's let's look at the bottom line and what the

714
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: results are. Let's take the motivations and all that out

715
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,359
Speaker 1: of it, and what's the result. Yeah, yeah, I mean,

716
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: and and we've everybody can agree that there's some oxym

717
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 1: ironic principles within hunting, for sure, that need to be explained.

718
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 1: There aren't cognitively, you know that they're not apparent. Don't

719
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,279
Speaker 1: be like, oh yeah yeah, killing things to save them,

720
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: we're killing things to perpetuate them. Yes, I get it,

721
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: We all get it. We understand that on its face,

722
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 1: these things are hard to understand. They are complex, but

723
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: that's what nature is. Nature is complex and in and

724
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: of itself and and we're part of it, um, and

725
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 1: so how could it be simplified? But then you see

726
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: somebody like Paul and his group simplifying it to a

727
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: very simple idea. If we don't do, if we don't

728
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 1: actively kill something, if I don't take part in the

729
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 1: act of killing an animal, I am free and clear.

730
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: If I don't have to see it, and I can believe,

731
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: if I can tell myself that I don't have anything

732
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 1: to do with death of wild animals or or dovestigated animals,

733
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: I'm in the clear now. And not only am I

734
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: in the clear, I am able to preach to everybody

735
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 1: in my sphere, everyone in my world, that they should

736
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,399
Speaker 1: believe what I believe, and they should actively It's it's

737
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 1: taking this moral high ground that doesn't exist. You know,

738
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 1: they sit there and talk about the you guys got

739
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: into the least the theory of least harm principle, you know,

740
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 1: like you know, I shared it with you later, Um

741
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: the Oregon State professor who looked at that. If you're

742
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,839
Speaker 1: talking organisms dying in the production of food to feed

743
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: the meat eat or versus the vegan, they're actually you

744
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: can argue killing more. And I mean if you dropped

745
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 1: ten thousand pounds of insecticide on a crop, something's dying,

746
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: you know, if you're if you're flooding it, if you're

747
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: combined whatever. When you start talking you know, insects, you

748
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: start talking aphids, you start talking that stuff you're piling

749
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 1: up the bodies, Well, their belief system is species um,

750
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: you know. And so where do you draw the line.

751
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,439
Speaker 1: You have to draw the line somewhere. And if they're

752
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 1: drawing the line with our food, well, what's you know,

753
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,919
Speaker 1: using their own principle against them is species um. And

754
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 1: if you're killing aphids all these little things with insecticide

755
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 1: to protect your crop, or shooting dear for depredation, you're

756
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: you've got more blood on your hands. Yeah, So don't

757
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 1: give you that. Yeah. And I would say, like the

758
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 1: two things that that shocked me the most in the

759
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 1: in the interviews that I've done, both with Paul and

760
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 1: the previous interview that I did in the Dingo down

761
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 1: there in Berkeley. Um, both of those things, there's two

762
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 1: things that really surprised me because what I was hoping

763
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 1: to find is kind of a very nuanced approach to

764
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: these ideas somebody with and I found this throughout, you know,

765
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: with with a gentleman named Robert C. Jones who's a

766
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: vegan philosopher like California. He thinks is deeply about these

767
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: ideas of veganism antibraces I do. We just disagree on

768
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,440
Speaker 1: the core application of death right, like just what you're

769
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: talking about. That that to me has been a very

770
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 1: enlightening interaction. But with activists, he's not an activist, he's

771
00:41:55,120 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: a professor, right, he teaches these things. Yeah, these are activists,

772
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: and the activists seems to me must boil down these

773
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: things into actionable items, right, things that they can move

774
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 1: through the world. And one thing that I want to

775
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: wish I would have said to Paul, and I haven't

776
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 1: listened back to this. It's hard for me to listen

777
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:15,799
Speaker 1: back to these conversations as much as it might be

778
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 1: for folks to listen to them. One thing I really

779
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 1: wanted to try to get across to him and try

780
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: to and try it in the questioning was to say,

781
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: do you want a movement of people that don't quite

782
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: understand what they're following? When you go out into the

783
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,240
Speaker 1: world with a mask on and hold up a screen

784
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: with a slaughterhouse footage on it. Everybody can objectively say

785
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: that that's awful. Right, we can all kind of get

786
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:41,879
Speaker 1: behind this idea that what I'm watching on that TV

787
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 1: is awful. If that's the introduction to the movement of

788
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: animal rights and animal rights activism, you're gonna have a

789
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: group of people collected there that are hollow in their

790
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:56,319
Speaker 1: and their understanding of exactly what they're arguing for. You know,

791
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: you're setting a trap for them, philosophical trap. Where are

792
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 1: you saying, do you hate this? Yes? Come in right,

793
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: and then the rest of your activities are all around

794
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: that singular hatred. Now you have a straw man and

795
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 1: as soon as I knocked that strong man over, you

796
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 1: have nothing left because you have not thought it through. Yeah,

797
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 1: that's it, right, like your emotion that this thing looks awful.

798
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,280
Speaker 1: This happens in a lot of activist movements in society.

799
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: They're they're telling you that this one thing is bad. Racism, sexism,

800
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: you know, uh, species is m all these things these

801
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 1: are bad. Come in now, be without really giving them

802
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 1: a healthy view of what's actually going on in the

803
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: complexity of of these many factors. So I just feel

804
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:44,439
Speaker 1: like and and here you are. Somebody has to deal

805
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: with lawsuits to end trapping and lawsuits to end bear

806
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,439
Speaker 1: hunting and all of this. Would you agree that kind

807
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 1: of comes from this state of being, this like emotional

808
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,720
Speaker 1: entry into a very serious topic of very complex topic,

809
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: and then eventually it gets to a lawsuit and eventually

810
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:05,919
Speaker 1: it gets to the changing of a policy. All born

811
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: from someone entering into this without really being read into

812
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: the entire situation or the complex set of facts. Yeah.

813
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: I mean, whether whether you're talking hunting and New Jersey

814
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: bears or deer. Wherever you're talking hunting, you're talking racism

815
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: that we're seeing that the BLM movement all that you

816
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: have a group of people that are removed from the

817
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: consequences of their actions. You know. Ah, if here in

818
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,959
Speaker 1: Washington State you've had hounding taken away and baiting taken

819
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: away of mountain lions or bears for uh, bait and

820
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: hounds for both bears and mountain lions. That gets past

821
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 1: because of the I five Corridor, Seattle, Tacoma, Olympia, you know,

822
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 1: those huge population centers. They don't have to deal with

823
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 1: the consequences and repercussions of it. So there is us

824
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 1: on the East side here, you know, and Steven's County

825
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: just north and me. We have to deal with the

826
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 1: consequences and repercussions of this bad bill and this bad

827
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 1: this bad ballot box stuff. It's it's the same thing.

828
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: They have no consequence and repercussion. They still go, he

829
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: kept saying, go to the supermarket and buy your bees

830
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: and buy your rice, you know, without thinking through that

831
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 1: chain of that chain of processing and what happens there.

832
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 1: But in the animal rights world where we work, the

833
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: people making the decisions, whether it's by popular vote or

834
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:46,479
Speaker 1: by legislation because of a politician who's based in that

835
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: popularly populated area is pushing it, and whoever controls, you know,

836
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 1: the different houses, and whoever is in governor at the time,

837
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 1: they're removed from the consequences of it. You know. Now

838
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: in Jersey they're starting to see some of those consequences

839
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: of too many bears, and they're sitting there fighting in

840
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: the middle of the street and swimming in everybody's pools

841
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: and opening garages. So they're starting to see it. But

842
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 1: these voices who are against it are so loud and

843
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: so powerful and grab so many headlines that it that

844
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 1: emotion of a small but very vocal voting block overpowers

845
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: the logic and everything else. Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's

846
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 1: you know, to say that, I will say there's a

847
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 1: couple of points from these interviews that I do want

848
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 1: to talk about a little bit, but also to say

849
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: that that I want there to be I don't mind

850
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: there to be healthy political and social movements. I I

851
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 1: that's what I want to be a part of healthy

852
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 1: um and well meaning and well intended UM. And when

853
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 1: it comes to animal rights, I feel like sometimes if

854
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 1: you're you know, if you're getting people in around the

855
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:59,320
Speaker 1: straw man idea, then then you kind of are welcoming

856
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:04,280
Speaker 1: and unhealthy the uh community, the community that that isn't

857
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 1: seeking objectivity. And that's what I want to see within

858
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 1: the hunting community, and then the people that go to this,

859
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: Let's seek the objectivity of like what's right and wrong here.

860
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:16,720
Speaker 1: We're not saying every every application of hunting is right

861
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 1: in that instance, not saying that, but we should have

862
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 1: a healthy debate around it. And I just and again

863
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:25,920
Speaker 1: I'm saying this from experience, not because I just came

864
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,040
Speaker 1: up with this idea of vacuum. It just doesn't seem

865
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,320
Speaker 1: like the animal rights world has developed a healthy approach

866
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 1: to this UM in terms of how objective they can be.

867
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: And we've seen that and in two examples of that

868
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: UM with with Paul. I was very surprised that we

869
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,720
Speaker 1: boiled this down to like going to the grocery store

870
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: versus not going to the grocery store, and and he

871
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 1: was arguing for buying rice at the store being a

872
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 1: solution to animal rights UM to be a solution. I

873
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: didn't expect that UM. I thought there would be more

874
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: more or depth to it. I just didn't think that

875
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: that's where it would stop and fixate. I was wrong.

876
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: That's that's where we stopped and fixated. I thought for

877
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 1: sure they were to be much like my evolution of

878
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 1: thought went from loving hunting to wanting to garden, from

879
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 1: gardening to wanting to think about regenerative agriculture. From regenerative

880
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,720
Speaker 1: agriculture to thinking about how we feed all the billions

881
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 1: of people on this earth, and then how I can

882
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: have a better proximity to my food. So here I

883
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: am having this evolution I'm I was expecting at this

884
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 1: at this juncture my interview guests have also have a

885
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: similar evolution. But it seemed that what that depth of

886
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 1: thought just stopped at a surprising point for me. Yeah. No,

887
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 1: I mean like at some point you just have to

888
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: suspend reality in that progression and you make the jump

889
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: to Okay, well I was vegetarian, now I'm going to

890
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 1: be vegan. Now I'm even holier than I was, and

891
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: I can preach to the vegetarians and why they're at

892
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 1: and I mean it's just you're leaving things out. I

893
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 1: mean even the argument that you know, it takes x

894
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 1: number of you know, acres to you know, feed a cow,

895
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:12,879
Speaker 1: and that land could be used for this. I mean,

896
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,879
Speaker 1: the whole thing just starts falling apart when you start

897
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: poking and pulling at it. You know, the different threads

898
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,240
Speaker 1: they leave out there. The difference is, and you guys

899
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: touched it on it in there is Nobody is forcing

900
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 1: a vegetarian or a vegan to eat meat. The I

901
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,479
Speaker 1: the ideological street is only going one way. They're trying

902
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:36,399
Speaker 1: to apply their ideology and their worldview onto others. Look,

903
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: I don't care what the hell the dude eats. You

904
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: eat sticks and leaves and berries are dirt. I really

905
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,439
Speaker 1: don't care. Well, I'm gonna eat my steak. I'm gonna

906
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: eat my venisone. I'm gonna eat my shrimp. Hell, I

907
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: only eat peas, beans, carrots, and corn. I'd be even

908
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: skinnier than I would be if I had to eat

909
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: just that. Yeah. Yeah, I was surprised. So that's one.

910
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: That's one thing that surprised me that we kind of

911
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 1: stopped there and covered around that idea. I thought we

912
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 1: could get a little bit little bit deeper than that. Um,

913
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: But again, maybe we have another conversation, Maybe we get

914
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 1: a little deeper who knows. UM. The other conversation we

915
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 1: had earlier UM on the show, and and something that

916
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: I definitely wanted to touch on with you. And if

917
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 1: if you've thought about this or heard this, was this

918
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 1: idea that of bodily autonomy, the idea that part of

919
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: these animal rights movement is that animals themselves should have

920
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,840
Speaker 1: bodily autonomy, meaning that they should be we shouldn't be

921
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: able to force anything on them that they don't choose.

922
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,320
Speaker 1: You know. That's that's something I've heard from several animals

923
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 1: or rights activists throughout these conversations. Um. But then when

924
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 1: you start to dig into the fact that bodily autonomy itself,

925
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:50,280
Speaker 1: much like the other much like rights in a general

926
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 1: sense are a structure of human thought, you know, and

927
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: human analytical thought about how are how we interact? That

928
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,799
Speaker 1: starts to break down immediately. And one of the other

929
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 1: interviews we we did on uh, animal rights, the interviewee

930
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 1: who has since kind of he's he's been a little combative,

931
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:12,359
Speaker 1: So I'm not going to mention his name. You can

932
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 1: go back and and find that interview. Most of you

933
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: will know what it is. Um. When I was in

934
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 1: the Dingo den he they mentioned a body of the autonomy.

935
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,800
Speaker 1: But at the same time, when we started talking about

936
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,800
Speaker 1: how you would control predators and urban and suburban situation,

937
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 1: said well you could maybe put a chip in there too.

938
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 1: Camplete read you can figure how they move. And think,

939
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:37,719
Speaker 1: I'm like, what about bodily autonomy? Man, where we can't well,

940
00:51:37,760 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: I don't understand, um, So I just this is just

941
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: another example I think of where the application of a

942
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: human construct falls apart immediately when you start to pick

943
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: when you start to apply it to wild beings, um,

944
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 1: things that don't live under the same constraints as we do.

945
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: Oh have you run into like you can walk into

946
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 1: my spread? You can you know, walk up to the decoy.

947
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 1: I'm not making it do that. It's it's like, this

948
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: is Darwinism at it's finest right here, Like the dumb

949
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: one gets removed. You know, that's bodily autonomy right there.

950
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 1: What other hypocrisies are out there? Like are there other

951
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 1: things that you've seen even in lawsuits and in other

952
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:27,080
Speaker 1: situations that that's just scream of a similar hypocrisy or

953
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: at least like a disconnection. Oh, the whole thing, I mean,

954
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 1: all of it is just hypocrisy. You know. It's this

955
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: holier than now, taking this this fake moral high ground

956
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,880
Speaker 1: and telling other people how they should live, applying their

957
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 1: their thought processes and their worldview to everybody else. It's

958
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: all just hypocrisy. We all have blood on our hands,

959
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: and nobody's getting out of this life without blood on

960
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:56,760
Speaker 1: their hands. You can argue least or more or whatever,

961
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter using their own thought process of taking

962
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:04,320
Speaker 1: a life is murder, Well then they're just as guilty

963
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 1: as a matter if he killed fifty million or he

964
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 1: killed twenty million. No, you know, so I don't know.

965
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 1: The whole thing is hippocritical, you know. I think that's

966
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 1: where most of the listeners of the of last week's

967
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 1: podcasts got frustrated when when there can be, there was

968
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 1: never gonna be. And let's be honest, nobody. He was

969
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,799
Speaker 1: not going to come in there and admit that that

970
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 1: that this point is is valid, that my killing of

971
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 1: one elk is a less you know, is less effective

972
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: in in individual deaths than that bag of rice. He

973
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 1: was never going to see that point because if he

974
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:41,239
Speaker 1: sees that point, everything falls apart, which just shows you

975
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 1: how shaky the foundation is and which the ideology sits.

976
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: And that's and again I've said before, I wanted to

977
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 1: have a very human conversation with Paul. He was a

978
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 1: nice guy in the end. To me, we had like

979
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 1: a nice kumba at the end, and I would talk

980
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 1: to him again. Um, I do not think he's a

981
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 1: crazy person. I think he They're missing something foundational um

982
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 1: to the cohabitation of of animals and of humans, and

983
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 1: they're stopping they're stopping their thought processes at the easiest part.

984
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 1: Factory farming is awful, and you know, full stop, like

985
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 1: everything that you can think of that we do with

986
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: wild and domestic animals that we might want to change

987
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 1: and evolve from, is where the full stop happens in

988
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,319
Speaker 1: the in the thought process of of someone like Paul.

989
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:35,319
Speaker 1: And that's where And I've seen it and seen it

990
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:38,800
Speaker 1: and seen it and seen it and so remaining objective

991
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 1: as I would like to do as much as I

992
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: can being a hunter, it just doesn't make sense. And

993
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 1: I've talked to other professors and intellectuals from very liberal

994
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 1: places in the world that agree on this idea. It

995
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:57,719
Speaker 1: just falls apart veganism itself, separated from animal rights, separated

996
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,080
Speaker 1: from this idea as you mentioned that it needs to

997
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:04,720
Speaker 1: be applied to everyone to save the world is absolutely um.

998
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,919
Speaker 1: As I told Paul in that conversation, absolutely valid way

999
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 1: to live your life in a way to consume. I

1000
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: actually think it's really a good thing. But it's getting

1001
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 1: twisted in some pretty unfortunate ways. Um. And you have

1002
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 1: to deal with that every day. You have to deal

1003
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 1: with that in your daily life. I just invite him

1004
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:24,279
Speaker 1: on my podcast every once in a while, uh, and

1005
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 1: we chat. So we'll leave that behind. But I you know,

1006
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 1: I wanted you to listen to that and and just

1007
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:33,879
Speaker 1: kind of um one just get an idea of how

1008
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: a conversation like that would go. Um and and maybe

1009
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 1: where it could go next if you had to, if

1010
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 1: you had to advise me on what to say to

1011
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 1: Paul next time we chatted, what would you say, Oh, yeah, no,

1012
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: I think he did great. Like you said, Uh, nobody's

1013
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 1: mind was gonna be changed. So you were really trying

1014
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: to talk to him and give him a platform to

1015
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: legitimize his points to an to another audience, and it

1016
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 1: just fell apart. He couldn't do it. It was like

1017
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 1: a one trick pony watching this. You know, he just

1018
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:16,359
Speaker 1: kept going back to this this anthropomorphization of animals, you know,

1019
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:21,120
Speaker 1: applying human constructs and human emotions to animals that just

1020
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 1: don't exist, and it just starts falling apart. You know me,

1021
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:28,479
Speaker 1: like I said, I'd be the you know, the bad

1022
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 1: person in the marriage counseling because I'd be listening to,

1023
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 1: you know, respond and start pointing out the hypocrisies of

1024
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 1: you know, least harm principle and you know, even factory farming.

1025
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: You know, Okay, it's not great, it's pretty bloody whatever.

1026
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 1: We have eight billion people on the planet too, and

1027
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 1: at some point we have to provide food for them

1028
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 1: and protein and you can get into the scientific stuff

1029
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 1: of protein meat versus protein versus plant protein, blah blah

1030
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:58,319
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. But the same principle applies on the

1031
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 1: factory farming, you know, for road crops, taking up habitat,

1032
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 1: pushing the family farmer out, you know, for these large

1033
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 1: industrial farms. All the same stuff that is allowing him

1034
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,399
Speaker 1: to eat by going to the store and buying rice,

1035
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 1: and which is one of the most destructive crops there

1036
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: is um in beings can be applied to him. So

1037
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:25,000
Speaker 1: I mean, like the whole points hippocris hypocrisy, And well,

1038
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 1: we've we've often talked on this show about this idea

1039
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 1: of change versus loss. One of the more effective ways

1040
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 1: to communicate to somebody's to present it presenting ideas change

1041
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 1: not loss. If I'm saying, if I say I'm taking

1042
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 1: this away from you, what are you immediately gonna do

1043
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 1: fight for it, punch in the mouth, punch me in

1044
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 1: the mouth to get it back. You don't want me

1045
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 1: to take stuff away from you, right, But I'm like,

1046
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 1: over time, we're just not gonna do that anymore. We're

1047
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 1: just you're just not gonna be able to do that

1048
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 1: over time, Right, We're going to apply that. I think

1049
00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 1: this that within this movement, if you're going to call

1050
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 1: it a movement, the more radical section of it UH

1051
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 1: is represented by Paul. But we also had a guy

1052
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 1: on from Impossible Meats a Possible Burger. I we talked

1053
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 1: about this and that their idea, I think it will

1054
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: over time. Again, I'm not saying it's in a good

1055
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:16,160
Speaker 1: faith idea, but their idea over time is to present

1056
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 1: it as change not loss. Paul's issue is he's saying

1057
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 1: I'm taking this away from you. You stopped doing it,

1058
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,560
Speaker 1: or you're a murderer. And then you have Impossible Foods

1059
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 1: with a probably a more deceptual, deception based intellectual argument

1060
00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 1: of like, hey, look you can have meat as a

1061
00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 1: plant UM and meat is bad, plan is good. And

1062
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: here we are. They're they're representing change and he's representing loss.

1063
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 1: And and again I didn't want to fully go through

1064
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 1: that with him. But that's another thing that I sat back.

1065
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 1: I'm like, man, if you know you're going to get

1066
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 1: this radical opposition, if you're presenting, I'm tell you, I

1067
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 1: want to take your livelihood away, I want to take

1068
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 1: what you do away. I want to end this and

1069
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 1: stop this UM And that's the presentation now at the

1070
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 1: heart of impossible Burger. It's the same idea they want

1071
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 1: to stop all meat um as well that, but they

1072
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 1: are presenting it in a way forward facing that seems

1073
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:13,240
Speaker 1: like incremental change. And that's why it's a burger and

1074
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:16,760
Speaker 1: not not a stalk of broccoli or a head of

1075
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,520
Speaker 1: lettus or whatever. That's what they're trying to do. And

1076
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 1: so there's lots of elements to it, lots of But

1077
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:27,280
Speaker 1: it's a real movement, um. And Paul's Paul's ideology and

1078
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 1: the way he looks at the world is not unique

1079
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 1: to him in any way, um. And it's a world movement.

1080
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:36,320
Speaker 1: And it's and it's death by a thousand cuts. It's

1081
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:41,640
Speaker 1: it's you know, moving moving the ball slowly down the field,

1082
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 1: you know, with impossible burgers and meatless mondays in school,

1083
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:49,720
Speaker 1: you know. Or Paul is at the other end of

1084
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:52,800
Speaker 1: the spectrum where you know, he is going for the

1085
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 1: hail Mary pass instead of taking first downs all the

1086
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: way down the ball all the way down the field,

1087
00:59:57,600 --> 00:59:59,479
Speaker 1: you know. And it's a death by a thousand cuts

1088
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:01,840
Speaker 1: approach is just what we see here in North America.

1089
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 1: But as you said, it's a worldwide What happens in

1090
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 1: Africa goes through Europe, which then comes here, you know,

1091
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 1: and then to Australia and such. You know, whatever happens

1092
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 1: in Africa and Europe, HiT's here we we see it

1093
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 1: happen when a domino falls there. You see humane Society

1094
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 1: the United States and Center for Biological Diversity and everybody

1095
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: leverage that into legislation and lawsuits here in ballot initiatives

1096
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 1: here in the States. Yeah, and it's it's important to know.

1097
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 1: And the other thing that I think that is important

1098
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:37,919
Speaker 1: and I like to have have you want to talk

1099
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 1: about this. I think it's it's timely and it makes

1100
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:43,320
Speaker 1: sense for where we are in our overall conversation on

1101
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:46,200
Speaker 1: the show is that we do want to build a

1102
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 1: hunting coalition that isn't hollow. And I think it's it's

1103
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:53,680
Speaker 1: it's well down the road. UM. I know you know this.

1104
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 1: And have you worked at out to our life, You've

1105
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 1: worked at ESPN. I mean you have a background of

1106
01:00:57,960 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 1: talking on a on a mass scale to the hunting

1107
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 1: and fishing communities. I think there's a growing sector of

1108
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:07,840
Speaker 1: of our population within the hunting community that that wants

1109
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 1: to have a deeper understanding of what's going on. Um, hence,

1110
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 1: you know, them tolerating me being around. I'm not kicking

1111
01:01:15,560 --> 01:01:21,240
Speaker 1: me out. I know it's hard. I know it's hard.

1112
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 1: I know it's hard to keep me around. Um so

1113
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 1: that's I mean, that's I think encouraging to me a

1114
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:31,520
Speaker 1: lot on a lot of levels. And um, well, well,

1115
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 1: well I think we need to switch to New Jersey

1116
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 1: where we can have a lot of This is like

1117
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 1: an amplified scenario of of of what we're talking about here.

1118
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 1: But I would just say that I would encourage while

1119
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 1: it is gonna piste a lot of off when you

1120
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 1: hear somebody like Paul, I would encourage you to kind

1121
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:52,080
Speaker 1: of take a step back from that and try to

1122
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 1: understand their point of view and try to then allow

1123
01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 1: that to make sure to make your opinion, your perv

1124
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 1: you within the hunting world, your perspective, healthier and more

1125
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 1: well rounded approach to if you're going to argue for hunting,

1126
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 1: you gotta listen to this guy that thinks you're murdering animals.

1127
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:13,400
Speaker 1: You have to, in my opinion, And we've we've on

1128
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:16,520
Speaker 1: social media and meet in the news media, we've developed

1129
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 1: these bubbles. We always talk about the these ideological bubbles

1130
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 1: we've got to get out of that. And if we can,

1131
01:02:22,160 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 1: then we're gonna be stronger as hunters because I I'm

1132
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 1: telling you, I took my ideas to the to the

1133
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 1: person who was was predisposed to hate them and to

1134
01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 1: hate me for having them. And I wasn't scared to

1135
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:37,479
Speaker 1: do it because I was confident that my ideas would

1136
01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:40,960
Speaker 1: stand up against his um. And I only got that.

1137
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 1: I only got that way from really um thinking it

1138
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 1: through and and spending a lot of time talking into microphone.

1139
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:52,120
Speaker 1: So and you have those extremes, but that's not who

1140
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:54,320
Speaker 1: we need to talk to. You know. We need to

1141
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:56,920
Speaker 1: understand where they're at and what they're saying to the

1142
01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 1: people in the middle or that don't support hunting UM,

1143
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 1: who are somewhere in the gray, somewhere in that scale.

1144
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:08,560
Speaker 1: And that's who we need to talk to and need

1145
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:12,280
Speaker 1: to have a decent argument, you know, which is we

1146
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:15,200
Speaker 1: both and you've said it before, is we both want

1147
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 1: the same thing of healthy wildlife and you know animals,

1148
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:23,440
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, my my own girlfriend was anti hunting,

1149
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:27,320
Speaker 1: and here she walks into my house and I got

1150
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:32,000
Speaker 1: bear rugs up and antelope heads and ducks flying everywhere.

1151
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 1: And you know, I kind of started talking to her

1152
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:38,480
Speaker 1: about it, like, hey, those things are gonna go and

1153
01:03:38,520 --> 01:03:42,160
Speaker 1: go and they're either going to starve or get disease

1154
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 1: or whatever, you know, and just went walked her through this,

1155
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 1: and over time she started to understand it. You know,

1156
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:51,760
Speaker 1: she's coming around say, oh, okay, you know, yeah, I

1157
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 1: think you if it's your girlfriend or somebody like Paul, like, really,

1158
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:59,000
Speaker 1: what they're asking, even if they're like developed past, actually

1159
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:02,360
Speaker 1: actually asking this question is is this good for all

1160
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 1: of us? Is hunting good for society? Is it good

1161
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 1: for everybody? I think the people in the middle, And

1162
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that, because you're right. The people

1163
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:12,240
Speaker 1: in the middle who just don't haven't been exposed to hunting.

1164
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:14,440
Speaker 1: It's way too easy to look at it and think

1165
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,840
Speaker 1: it's wrong. It's it's too easy to convince someone that

1166
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 1: killing an animal is wrong. Um, it's it's as as

1167
01:04:22,480 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 1: is evidence by Paul and his group. It's too easy

1168
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:26,480
Speaker 1: to like to throw it out there and be like,

1169
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:28,200
Speaker 1: how look how ugly it is, but oh my god,

1170
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 1: that's horrible. Don't do that. Um. It's like showing on

1171
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:33,880
Speaker 1: a horror movie and being like, see, you're scared, right,

1172
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 1: you're scared, be like, yeah, yep, that's a horror movie.

1173
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 1: It's meant to it's meant to a list that emotion.

1174
01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:41,160
Speaker 1: And so it's good to know that. Like, there are

1175
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 1: a groups of people out there, and I've seen them,

1176
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 1: You've seen them. We a lot of times. We call

1177
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 1: him adult onset hunters when I get talk to these

1178
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 1: folks all the time, that that came to a point

1179
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:54,680
Speaker 1: in their life where they wanted to think about the

1180
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 1: proximity to their food and how it was killed and

1181
01:04:57,320 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 1: what their impact was. And instead of running to veganism,

1182
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:04,880
Speaker 1: they came to hunting. Um, and I'm glad they did.

1183
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:06,560
Speaker 1: I think going to veganism is fine as long as

1184
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:09,439
Speaker 1: you don't go all the way to animal rights. Either

1185
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:12,640
Speaker 1: way you go, I don't care, but um, just don't

1186
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:15,160
Speaker 1: don't find yourself at the extremes. And if you're in

1187
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 1: the hunting community, do not find yourself at the extremes.

1188
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:20,000
Speaker 1: Don't go yelling at vegans on the street, you know,

1189
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:22,600
Speaker 1: don't go yelling at vegans on the street, and just

1190
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:25,240
Speaker 1: don't be that. Don't be the opposite of what what's

1191
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:27,720
Speaker 1: gonna get us to where we need to go. Um,

1192
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:31,640
Speaker 1: so we need to talk about New Jersey again. Compliment Sandwich,

1193
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:34,600
Speaker 1: New Jersey is a lovely place. It's the home of

1194
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 1: what the Giants, the New York Giants maybe yeah, yeah,

1195
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:42,880
Speaker 1: the New Jersey Devils. Is that still a thing? The

1196
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:50,240
Speaker 1: team hockey? Team hockey is basically so yeah, Like we

1197
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 1: got a lot of Canadian listeners here. You might like, um, yeah,

1198
01:05:56,840 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 1: we love New Jersey. You're part of our nation. You're

1199
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:02,480
Speaker 1: just a different apart. You're part of our family. You

1200
01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 1: just have to sit at the kittie table in this

1201
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:07,880
Speaker 1: In this case, it's not even all of Jersey. It's

1202
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 1: just North Jersey. It's Northern Jersey. Like I took the

1203
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:15,240
Speaker 1: train through Northern Jersey every day going into outdoor life

1204
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:19,400
Speaker 1: in Manhattan, and you know where I lived down in

1205
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:24,560
Speaker 1: Central Jersey outside Princeton Hamilton area. In South Jersey. It's

1206
01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 1: as you know, normal as everything else pretty much, but

1207
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:33,520
Speaker 1: that North Jersey and the government there is pretty I

1208
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:37,760
Speaker 1: mean sopranos man. Okay, So let's maybe I know we

1209
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:39,440
Speaker 1: had a microwave this down. I think I feel like

1210
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 1: we've talked about this on the show. I know we have,

1211
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:43,920
Speaker 1: uh in general, but I think last time you were on,

1212
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:46,480
Speaker 1: we talked Aboutsey. We had to have talked about New Jersey.

1213
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:49,680
Speaker 1: Pars I almost sure we did. But get microwave down

1214
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:51,520
Speaker 1: the history here. We'll come up to kind of what's

1215
01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:54,960
Speaker 1: happening right now in the political cycle. But give people

1216
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:57,320
Speaker 1: the history of bears in New Jersey and kind of

1217
01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:01,400
Speaker 1: how in your mind things have progressed. Well, they have

1218
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:06,160
Speaker 1: the densest population of bears and densest population of people,

1219
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:10,360
Speaker 1: mostly up in that northern part of the state. And

1220
01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:13,440
Speaker 1: so of course for years it is going back to

1221
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 1: the early two thousands, they wanted they didn't have a

1222
01:07:16,720 --> 01:07:18,960
Speaker 1: hunt starting back in the seventies because there weren't a

1223
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:21,440
Speaker 1: lot of bears, and then in the early two thousands

1224
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:25,120
Speaker 1: is like, hey, we need to start balancing this, and

1225
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:27,120
Speaker 1: there was a hunt. Then there wasn't a hunt. And

1226
01:07:27,120 --> 01:07:30,280
Speaker 1: then Chris Christie was in office and he put the

1227
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 1: hunt in and there was moves there and there was

1228
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:36,200
Speaker 1: a hunt. Well, of course that's controversial, and now it's

1229
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:38,960
Speaker 1: this flash point. It's a political flash point, you know.

1230
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:42,800
Speaker 1: So under Chris Christie, the bear management plans put in

1231
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:47,439
Speaker 1: their following it. Fishing Game Commission is bound by law

1232
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 1: to follow this Bear management plan, which has a five

1233
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:54,000
Speaker 1: year shelf life. And so the hunt's been on again,

1234
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:57,680
Speaker 1: off again over the last twenty years. It's been on

1235
01:07:57,760 --> 01:08:00,760
Speaker 1: now for the last four five, four and a half.

1236
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:05,640
Speaker 1: This is the fifth season, um, and the bear Management

1237
01:08:05,640 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 1: Plan expires in June, and so that's you know, just

1238
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:15,880
Speaker 1: a real condensed peace. But it's become this huge political

1239
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 1: flashpoint whenever there's gubernatorial elections or a move one way

1240
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:25,559
Speaker 1: or the other. Basically every October when this comes up

1241
01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:29,640
Speaker 1: for the October and December seasons, the protests, the headlines,

1242
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:34,080
Speaker 1: you know, all that stuff creeps back up to the

1243
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:36,280
Speaker 1: point we're like to you're saying, to the point where politicians,

1244
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:40,080
Speaker 1: and we'll talk about specific individuals here are are campaigning

1245
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:46,240
Speaker 1: on this issue. Local state politicians campaigning on I will

1246
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 1: stop the bear hunt. Literally, Like that's one of the

1247
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:54,800
Speaker 1: promises Governor Phil Murphy made on the campaign trail was

1248
01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:57,559
Speaker 1: stopping the bear hunts. He's going to stop the bear hunt,

1249
01:08:58,120 --> 01:08:59,880
Speaker 1: you know, and he's done what he what he can

1250
01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 1: and do legally. Now the other side is saying he

1251
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:07,360
Speaker 1: hasn't gone far enough obviously, um. But they say he

1252
01:09:07,400 --> 01:09:10,120
Speaker 1: can just stop it outright, which he can't. That's already

1253
01:09:10,120 --> 01:09:13,640
Speaker 1: been legally upheld that he has to apply in the

1254
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:18,360
Speaker 1: bear management plan. Yeah. So you guys are working with

1255
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:23,360
Speaker 1: several groups, right Safari Club, UM, the the New New

1256
01:09:23,439 --> 01:09:26,559
Speaker 1: Jersey Outdoor Alliance and others, and you guys have placed

1257
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:29,120
Speaker 1: a bear expert by the name of doctor John McDonald

1258
01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:33,920
Speaker 1: on the standard testify. Here explained Dr McDonald, and kind

1259
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:36,360
Speaker 1: of as a background if you can, I just know

1260
01:09:36,400 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 1: a little bit what I what I read and kind

1261
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:41,600
Speaker 1: of the closing arguments and stuff. I believe he's from Massachusetts.

1262
01:09:41,600 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 1: He's a bear expert. He has been on the review

1263
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:50,800
Speaker 1: process for a you know, predatory you know, part of

1264
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:53,760
Speaker 1: the pure review process for a huge journal, you know,

1265
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:58,160
Speaker 1: academic journal. Uh, he's well versed in bears. You know.

1266
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:01,960
Speaker 1: There was a long list of credentials um that I

1267
01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:03,600
Speaker 1: just kind of glanced through real quick as I was

1268
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:07,160
Speaker 1: reading this. But he was pretty impressive. Yeah, it sounds

1269
01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:08,640
Speaker 1: like I was reading some of his quotes and some

1270
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:11,280
Speaker 1: of some of the things that he's done in the past,

1271
01:10:11,360 --> 01:10:13,519
Speaker 1: and I think the column my Barra expert would probably

1272
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:15,720
Speaker 1: be pretty it would probably be pretty legit. And maybe

1273
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:17,800
Speaker 1: we'll get to talk to him in the future on

1274
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:21,880
Speaker 1: this one. Um, where so I want to back up,

1275
01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:24,559
Speaker 1: make sure people understand where where we are. Um. The

1276
01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:28,400
Speaker 1: governor New Jersey did something on state lands that I,

1277
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:32,439
Speaker 1: when I looked at it as a public land advocate

1278
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:34,439
Speaker 1: and an advocate for access not only to land but

1279
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:37,879
Speaker 1: of the wild life that inhabited that land, was shocking

1280
01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:42,280
Speaker 1: to me and on its face just purely makes me angry.

1281
01:10:42,280 --> 01:10:45,680
Speaker 1: He closed state lands, he closed the bear hound on

1282
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:48,200
Speaker 1: state lands, right because he doesn't have pur view or

1283
01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:52,400
Speaker 1: federal lands. Correct. Um, can you take us through that,

1284
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:56,200
Speaker 1: like how that went down? And and what? Um? So

1285
01:10:56,240 --> 01:10:59,439
Speaker 1: that how long is it going? So he got into office,

1286
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:01,880
Speaker 1: amost said he was going to shut down the bear hunt.

1287
01:11:02,160 --> 01:11:05,160
Speaker 1: You know, Uh, he can't do that, you know, he

1288
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:07,920
Speaker 1: just can't unilaterally shut it down. So what he did

1289
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:11,400
Speaker 1: is he went at it from the viewpoint and the

1290
01:11:11,479 --> 01:11:15,640
Speaker 1: argument standpoint that he is the land manager for state lands,

1291
01:11:15,720 --> 01:11:18,799
Speaker 1: and as the manager of those lands, they can close

1292
01:11:18,880 --> 01:11:22,719
Speaker 1: them down out of an abundance a caution of abundance

1293
01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:25,960
Speaker 1: of safety. And so that was their reasoning to shut

1294
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:29,360
Speaker 1: it down. It's not justified, there's nothing to support it.

1295
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:35,559
Speaker 1: But he shut it down. And so that's where Sportsman's Alliance,

1296
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:39,080
Speaker 1: New Jersey Outdoor Alliance and Safari Club came together and

1297
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:41,960
Speaker 1: sued and that's what's working its way through the process

1298
01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:45,040
Speaker 1: right now. That closing arguments just closed up in the

1299
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:49,680
Speaker 1: last couple of days. And so yeah, for those that

1300
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:52,200
Speaker 1: are against you know, the selling of federal lands to

1301
01:11:52,240 --> 01:11:57,400
Speaker 1: the state, whether it's fear of selling those lands to

1302
01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:01,240
Speaker 1: you know, extraction resources and whatever else because I can't

1303
01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:03,799
Speaker 1: afford him or whatever the reason. And this is another

1304
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:09,160
Speaker 1: reason that, well, this guy just shut down state lands

1305
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 1: to hunting because of you know, he he doesn't like it,

1306
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:14,320
Speaker 1: and he as the land manager, he can do that.

1307
01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:17,840
Speaker 1: And that's one reason we jumped on this case is

1308
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:20,760
Speaker 1: because if he can get away with it, then that

1309
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:23,840
Speaker 1: precedent can be applied to other states. And it doesn't

1310
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 1: just stop with the bear hunt, right Like somebody even

1311
01:12:26,240 --> 01:12:28,720
Speaker 1: asked in one of the newspaper articles, you know the

1312
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:32,599
Speaker 1: comments below, Well, what's going to stop him from doing

1313
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:34,719
Speaker 1: the bear the deer hunt? Why? You know, why please

1314
01:12:34,720 --> 01:12:36,960
Speaker 1: stop the deer hunt. So if you can do it

1315
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:40,320
Speaker 1: for bearers out of an abundance of safety, you can

1316
01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:45,160
Speaker 1: do it and everything else across all the other states. Yeah,

1317
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:47,759
Speaker 1: why is a bullet aimed at a bear more unsafe

1318
01:12:47,760 --> 01:12:49,840
Speaker 1: than a bullet aimed at a deer? Exactly. I mean,

1319
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:52,880
Speaker 1: there's so much about this that makes zero objective sense.

1320
01:12:53,320 --> 01:12:56,679
Speaker 1: And the idea that the bear plane itself, the basic

1321
01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:59,559
Speaker 1: principle of it is there's a harvest rate, right like,

1322
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:02,519
Speaker 1: this is the basic principle having a management plan is

1323
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:07,799
Speaker 1: to harvest a certain number of bears to effectively manage

1324
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:09,920
Speaker 1: the population. Right in my wrong, I can't be wrong

1325
01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:14,280
Speaker 1: in this this assumption. So when you take hunting opportunities

1326
01:13:14,320 --> 01:13:18,360
Speaker 1: away on state lands, you are undermining the management plan

1327
01:13:18,840 --> 01:13:23,040
Speaker 1: itself because you're are undermining the the ability of the

1328
01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:26,120
Speaker 1: hunters to harvest. Hunters with a tag to harvest those bears.

1329
01:13:26,479 --> 01:13:28,559
Speaker 1: And and and something that I read on your social

1330
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:32,800
Speaker 1: media they said, you know, the harvest rate is in

1331
01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:36,559
Speaker 1: the management plan. Three years prior, the average harvest rate

1332
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:40,679
Speaker 1: was for bears. Governor Murphy closed state lands. Bear harvest

1333
01:13:40,760 --> 01:13:45,400
Speaker 1: falls to fourteen point eight percent. And again this is

1334
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 1: this is exactly intended to I think, intended to undermine

1335
01:13:50,960 --> 01:13:54,240
Speaker 1: the plan altogether. I'm sure, yeah, Well, I mean that's

1336
01:13:54,280 --> 01:13:57,080
Speaker 1: the argument we're making in court. That's the exact argument.

1337
01:13:57,120 --> 01:14:02,400
Speaker 1: One fishing game is bound legally to follow that plan

1338
01:14:03,680 --> 01:14:08,960
Speaker 1: by capriciously, arbitrarily and capriciously, which is the legal term

1339
01:14:09,600 --> 01:14:13,360
Speaker 1: uh closing state lands. He has undermined the plan. Therefore

1340
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:17,080
Speaker 1: it's illegal. That's our one of our legal arguments, and

1341
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:21,600
Speaker 1: it is he closed it and it dropped that below

1342
01:14:23,439 --> 01:14:26,080
Speaker 1: which is the target ring, that's the minimum target rate

1343
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:30,280
Speaker 1: they want twenty to because New Jersey bears apparently I

1344
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:32,519
Speaker 1: didn't know this, but the bear expert everybody else talked

1345
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:36,360
Speaker 1: about it is New Jersey bears produced about twice as

1346
01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:41,880
Speaker 1: many cubs and they have a higher degree of of

1347
01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:47,200
Speaker 1: survival and so they're booming, Like just missing the last

1348
01:14:47,760 --> 01:14:52,839
Speaker 1: bear season on the state lands, the population has increased

1349
01:14:54,320 --> 01:14:56,360
Speaker 1: and he raised all the gains they made in the

1350
01:14:56,439 --> 01:14:59,519
Speaker 1: last five years. Because the idea of the bear plan

1351
01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:04,080
Speaker 1: is one reduced the population and then stabilize it under

1352
01:15:04,120 --> 01:15:07,880
Speaker 1: the carrying capacity and in accordance with the habitat. And

1353
01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:09,800
Speaker 1: so that was the goal and that's where they were

1354
01:15:09,840 --> 01:15:14,960
Speaker 1: getting to. Incidents dropped, you know, issues were dropping, and

1355
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:18,599
Speaker 1: now in just missing one season, those incident rates are

1356
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:21,639
Speaker 1: way up. The Category two and Category the Category one

1357
01:15:22,720 --> 01:15:26,400
Speaker 1: ones are down, but the Category two, which is getting

1358
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:28,960
Speaker 1: into the garbage cans and doing all these things are

1359
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:32,320
Speaker 1: way way up. And if you look at it, it's well,

1360
01:15:32,360 --> 01:15:36,880
Speaker 1: there's a lag so category to the category one incidents

1361
01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:39,839
Speaker 1: that are down because you're still having effects from hunting

1362
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:43,080
Speaker 1: for the past four years. The category two effects are

1363
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:48,880
Speaker 1: going up and then those will are usually indicate the

1364
01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:53,360
Speaker 1: next round next year, category one incident rates will probably

1365
01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:56,800
Speaker 1: go up. Well. And as you said that, like we're

1366
01:15:56,800 --> 01:16:01,080
Speaker 1: talking about when you shut down hunting on state lands,

1367
01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:04,960
Speaker 1: and as you know as a hunter, this should enrage you.

1368
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:07,519
Speaker 1: I don't care where you are. I don't care where

1369
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:12,320
Speaker 1: you are. This should piss you off for an a

1370
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:16,280
Speaker 1: bunch of reasons, um. And that you know what, least

1371
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:17,800
Speaker 1: of which, in my mind, because I don't live in

1372
01:16:17,840 --> 01:16:21,000
Speaker 1: New Jersey, is the bear population New Jersey. The precedents,

1373
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:23,680
Speaker 1: And this is what you guys fight so much, is

1374
01:16:23,720 --> 01:16:26,400
Speaker 1: that the new the application of this in New Jersey

1375
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:29,760
Speaker 1: can then be used as precedent anywhere else across the country.

1376
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:32,200
Speaker 1: This has happened in the bear the fight for grizzly

1377
01:16:32,240 --> 01:16:35,920
Speaker 1: bears in the Greater Yellstone ecosystem, for wolves across the country,

1378
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:40,040
Speaker 1: over and over and over again. Um. And so in

1379
01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:44,559
Speaker 1: the flip side is also another lawsuit we're in in Alaska,

1380
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:48,000
Speaker 1: which was the management of federal lands within the borders

1381
01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:51,920
Speaker 1: of the state of Alaska. So yes, it's federal land,

1382
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:54,599
Speaker 1: but the states still make the rule. The Feds do

1383
01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:57,760
Speaker 1: not control fish and wildlife. The outside of the Migratory

1384
01:16:57,800 --> 01:17:00,720
Speaker 1: Bird Act and the Endangered Species Act, the Feds do

1385
01:17:00,840 --> 01:17:04,160
Speaker 1: not have control of wildlife fish and wildlife. That is

1386
01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:09,439
Speaker 1: left to the states to decide harvest dates, bag limits,

1387
01:17:09,520 --> 01:17:13,200
Speaker 1: means and methods. If that becomes federalized, and if they

1388
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:15,600
Speaker 1: could have done it in Alaska, which was changed the

1389
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:20,639
Speaker 1: definition of predator management and take control of that where

1390
01:17:20,640 --> 01:17:23,880
Speaker 1: it's in three federal documents, including the agreement to become

1391
01:17:23,920 --> 01:17:29,439
Speaker 1: a state of of the Union. It's in the Charter. Yeah, Like,

1392
01:17:30,200 --> 01:17:31,920
Speaker 1: if they can do that in Alaska, they can do

1393
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:36,360
Speaker 1: it anywhere, which means now wildlife management is federalized and

1394
01:17:36,360 --> 01:17:38,680
Speaker 1: whoever sitting in the White House gets to decide yea

1395
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:41,840
Speaker 1: or nay. And we've got all sorts of issues. So

1396
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:45,800
Speaker 1: that's the flip side of the whole Jersey argument. You know,

1397
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:48,840
Speaker 1: we have a good system. It's proven. You know, it's

1398
01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:53,160
Speaker 1: a hundred plus years of proven to be effective and

1399
01:17:53,280 --> 01:17:57,200
Speaker 1: bring animals back and work to reduce conflicts and help.

1400
01:17:57,760 --> 01:18:01,559
Speaker 1: And again, let's like like the thing it how bears

1401
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:05,240
Speaker 1: can somehow become different than deer. Um in the minds

1402
01:18:05,439 --> 01:18:10,720
Speaker 1: of millions of people in New Jersey is mental gymnastics

1403
01:18:11,360 --> 01:18:13,200
Speaker 1: at a level of which I would I don't understand.

1404
01:18:13,280 --> 01:18:15,000
Speaker 1: I guess I do understand it. I've been through it.

1405
01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:18,640
Speaker 1: I've talked to these people. I understand where they're coming from.

1406
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:20,639
Speaker 1: But the mental gymnastics of saying, well, you don't eat

1407
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:23,599
Speaker 1: a bear, black bear is delicious. Be quiet. I used

1408
01:18:23,640 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 1: to be a guy that said, well, it's the meats, okay, No,

1409
01:18:26,360 --> 01:18:29,360
Speaker 1: the meat is delicious, especially of animals that are living

1410
01:18:29,360 --> 01:18:33,200
Speaker 1: in places like New Jersey um where they they do

1411
01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:35,240
Speaker 1: not have to use those muscles as much as they

1412
01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:38,639
Speaker 1: do in the mountains of Montana, and they have access

1413
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:40,679
Speaker 1: to agg and things like that at a pretty good clip.

1414
01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:45,280
Speaker 1: The meat is delicious. I'm not I can't again speak

1415
01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:47,920
Speaker 1: to the individual motivation of every hunter, but the meat

1416
01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:50,040
Speaker 1: is delicious, edible, and as long as you cook it

1417
01:18:51,120 --> 01:18:56,080
Speaker 1: to the right internal temperature, you're not gonna have any trouble. Um.

1418
01:18:56,240 --> 01:18:59,719
Speaker 1: There is again the same need to manage that population

1419
01:18:59,720 --> 01:19:03,080
Speaker 1: as with deer or with any other ungle it um

1420
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:07,600
Speaker 1: even more predator more. There ain't nothing killing them but

1421
01:19:07,680 --> 01:19:09,479
Speaker 1: each other. And then you end up with an injured

1422
01:19:09,479 --> 01:19:12,000
Speaker 1: bear and he's pissed off, and you know you've got problems.

1423
01:19:12,040 --> 01:19:14,160
Speaker 1: There's no winter kill like deer, they no I mean,

1424
01:19:14,160 --> 01:19:16,559
Speaker 1: they have all access to food, they're pretty much protecting

1425
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:21,080
Speaker 1: and and so there's every reason to manage them and

1426
01:19:21,080 --> 01:19:22,600
Speaker 1: and hunt them in the same way you would have

1427
01:19:22,600 --> 01:19:25,759
Speaker 1: white tailed deer um, and even even a more intense

1428
01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:29,799
Speaker 1: reasons to manage them on a population level. I can't

1429
01:19:31,080 --> 01:19:32,680
Speaker 1: I would like to put on my anonymus for the

1430
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:36,439
Speaker 1: voiceless hat. I can't find any other thing objectively to

1431
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:41,840
Speaker 1: say about this than that through our cultural um initiatives,

1432
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:45,080
Speaker 1: with with anthropomorphism and other things, we have made the

1433
01:19:45,120 --> 01:19:49,040
Speaker 1: bear a different entity. We have we have categorized it differently,

1434
01:19:49,080 --> 01:19:53,080
Speaker 1: we value it differently than we do other animals. And

1435
01:19:53,200 --> 01:19:57,400
Speaker 1: that doesn't mix, That doesn't mix with the complex management

1436
01:19:57,439 --> 01:19:59,360
Speaker 1: of it in the state of New Jersey or anywhere else.

1437
01:19:59,400 --> 01:20:02,640
Speaker 1: It just and it never will. And for the for

1438
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:06,320
Speaker 1: the government in New Jersey, Governor of New Jersey too

1439
01:20:06,840 --> 01:20:09,559
Speaker 1: to take it to to take it this far, essentially

1440
01:20:09,600 --> 01:20:12,599
Speaker 1: acting as an act of as for animal rights. UM

1441
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:16,479
Speaker 1: from the seat of and the governor's office is man,

1442
01:20:16,560 --> 01:20:20,160
Speaker 1: it's rough. That's rough, no, and it's tough, and it's

1443
01:20:20,200 --> 01:20:22,919
Speaker 1: so you know, we have to keep going through these

1444
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:27,000
Speaker 1: arguments in court. You know, we're doing it with the

1445
01:20:27,160 --> 01:20:29,800
Speaker 1: with the wolf D listing and the Great Lakes. We're

1446
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:33,120
Speaker 1: doing with the Yellowstone Grizzly bear D listing. We go

1447
01:20:33,200 --> 01:20:36,840
Speaker 1: to court, a ruling comes down. The argument is this

1448
01:20:37,920 --> 01:20:40,280
Speaker 1: fishing game. You have to do this, you know. So

1449
01:20:40,360 --> 01:20:43,439
Speaker 1: it's kind of you have to almost you're we're taking

1450
01:20:43,439 --> 01:20:47,599
Speaker 1: the arguments apart one by one in legal channels, and

1451
01:20:47,640 --> 01:20:49,519
Speaker 1: so this is one step of that. And the same

1452
01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:51,840
Speaker 1: with the wolves and the grizzly bears. We know there

1453
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:54,600
Speaker 1: is a path forward and they argue that there is.

1454
01:20:54,720 --> 01:20:56,919
Speaker 1: Here's a roadblock. So we have to take the roadblock

1455
01:20:57,000 --> 01:21:00,759
Speaker 1: down and that takes time. It's a slow expend process.

1456
01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:07,960
Speaker 1: Let's make sure that we do touch on that um

1457
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:09,880
Speaker 1: because with with when I've talked to a lot of

1458
01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:13,760
Speaker 1: people that really believe the Yellowstone, the eels ecosystem, christly

1459
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:16,400
Speaker 1: bear hunt shouldn't go on and they can actually say like, look,

1460
01:21:16,479 --> 01:21:19,760
Speaker 1: we need feed your populations. They can actually articulate an

1461
01:21:19,800 --> 01:21:23,559
Speaker 1: idea that. Then then I can go and objectively examine, Right,

1462
01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:26,559
Speaker 1: I can talk to several biologists and try to get

1463
01:21:27,960 --> 01:21:31,200
Speaker 1: a picture of is this legitimate? Is do the Great

1464
01:21:31,320 --> 01:21:34,559
Speaker 1: Yellstone bears feed other populations in different parts of Montana,

1465
01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:40,080
Speaker 1: Wyoming and elsewhere? Is that interconnectivity important to population level dynamics?

1466
01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:42,400
Speaker 1: I can? I can go and investigate that I have,

1467
01:21:42,560 --> 01:21:44,760
Speaker 1: and we've talked about it on this show. Same thing

1468
01:21:44,760 --> 01:21:47,960
Speaker 1: with wolves. We've we've We've gone and I've talked to

1469
01:21:48,080 --> 01:21:52,400
Speaker 1: Vlarious Geist and Dr Dan Stayler and Chris Deremant and

1470
01:21:52,439 --> 01:21:54,920
Speaker 1: all these people that kind of understand the principles of

1471
01:21:55,000 --> 01:21:57,200
Speaker 1: which at play on a conservation level. And there are

1472
01:21:57,200 --> 01:22:01,000
Speaker 1: disagreements within that community about how we deal with these things.

1473
01:22:01,520 --> 01:22:04,920
Speaker 1: At least we can have those conversations. Yeah, what are

1474
01:22:04,920 --> 01:22:07,400
Speaker 1: they saying in New Jersey? Why could they possibly saying

1475
01:22:07,400 --> 01:22:09,400
Speaker 1: in New Jersey? Why we shouldn't be hunting these bears?

1476
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:14,760
Speaker 1: Says the same thing Paul said. You don't you can't

1477
01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:17,599
Speaker 1: kill them, You don't deserve to kill them. That's murder.

1478
01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:23,240
Speaker 1: How can they know? Legally? The legal arguments are hinging

1479
01:22:23,240 --> 01:22:24,920
Speaker 1: on a couple of different things. Yeah, that's why I

1480
01:22:24,920 --> 01:22:26,599
Speaker 1: want to hear. I want to hear how they twist

1481
01:22:26,640 --> 01:22:30,599
Speaker 1: this ship into a legal argument, because come on, I'm

1482
01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:36,920
Speaker 1: fired up now. Well, I mean, the lawsuit is you know,

1483
01:22:37,000 --> 01:22:39,800
Speaker 1: we're presenting the lawsuit, so they just have to try

1484
01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:42,599
Speaker 1: to rebut what we're saying. And so that's what they're doing.

1485
01:22:43,520 --> 01:22:46,960
Speaker 1: The funny part is with the testimony they've given it,

1486
01:22:47,240 --> 01:22:51,440
Speaker 1: they chose not to rebut a lot of our evidence.

1487
01:22:51,680 --> 01:22:55,920
Speaker 1: They just didn't comment on it and move forward. Um,

1488
01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:59,639
Speaker 1: you know, so their legal argument is like, it's within

1489
01:22:59,680 --> 01:23:02,559
Speaker 1: our power to do this. And here's why. You know,

1490
01:23:02,640 --> 01:23:05,840
Speaker 1: we're we're not undermining the you know, the count population.

1491
01:23:05,960 --> 01:23:09,120
Speaker 1: We're not undermining the harvest data. You know, they still

1492
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:12,639
Speaker 1: have plenty of places to take and we are showing

1493
01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:15,679
Speaker 1: with hard data that that's not true. So now it

1494
01:23:15,720 --> 01:23:18,320
Speaker 1: goes into the court's hands and we have to see

1495
01:23:18,320 --> 01:23:21,400
Speaker 1: how the judge rules. That's kind of the frustrating part

1496
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:24,600
Speaker 1: that we have all the data, you know, we we

1497
01:23:24,640 --> 01:23:30,160
Speaker 1: can show the rise in you know, consequences because without

1498
01:23:30,160 --> 01:23:32,519
Speaker 1: the hunt, we can show that the numbers are going

1499
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:35,760
Speaker 1: up as is indicated by that you know, we can

1500
01:23:35,800 --> 01:23:39,000
Speaker 1: show them statistically that this throws off the ability to

1501
01:23:39,000 --> 01:23:44,320
Speaker 1: account bears, which is part of the management plan. You know,

1502
01:23:44,479 --> 01:23:49,639
Speaker 1: so they're just it's more of a smoke screen noise.

1503
01:23:49,880 --> 01:23:54,559
Speaker 1: You know. Uh. The state you know, uh McDonald testified that,

1504
01:23:55,280 --> 01:23:58,320
Speaker 1: you know that we need a harvest rate. The state

1505
01:23:58,400 --> 01:24:00,920
Speaker 1: countered with, like, well, no, fifteen scent, which is about

1506
01:24:00,920 --> 01:24:04,280
Speaker 1: where there it fell to, is totally fine according to

1507
01:24:04,320 --> 01:24:07,240
Speaker 1: this study which was done in Alaska. You know our

1508
01:24:07,280 --> 01:24:10,000
Speaker 1: counter we we came back and said, no, that the

1509
01:24:10,040 --> 01:24:14,280
Speaker 1: Alaska study does not pertain to New Jersey. New Jersey bears.

1510
01:24:14,439 --> 01:24:17,640
Speaker 1: It's a different habitat. It's a different animal that their

1511
01:24:17,800 --> 01:24:20,800
Speaker 1: their cub you know, birth ratio is twice as much,

1512
01:24:20,840 --> 01:24:24,400
Speaker 1: their survivability is higher, they grow larger, they do. You know,

1513
01:24:24,439 --> 01:24:26,760
Speaker 1: we pointed out all this stuff. So it's just just

1514
01:24:27,280 --> 01:24:30,439
Speaker 1: ping pong game, but back and forth legal arguments and

1515
01:24:30,439 --> 01:24:35,599
Speaker 1: contentions and points, and then the judge offers rulings you know,

1516
01:24:35,840 --> 01:24:41,599
Speaker 1: or parameters that to work within. Yeah. Yeah, I mean

1517
01:24:41,640 --> 01:24:46,280
Speaker 1: here you have when you're trying to determine population estimates

1518
01:24:46,280 --> 01:24:48,320
Speaker 1: and when you're doing sampling, like the State of New

1519
01:24:48,360 --> 01:24:51,200
Speaker 1: Jersey does, or any state does when you close down

1520
01:24:51,200 --> 01:24:54,479
Speaker 1: state lands, obviously, it creates a lot of problems. The

1521
01:24:54,640 --> 01:24:59,200
Speaker 1: one effectively creates a sanctuary for bears where they're not

1522
01:24:59,240 --> 01:25:01,080
Speaker 1: going to be hunted in these hair It's not a

1523
01:25:01,080 --> 01:25:05,360
Speaker 1: sanctuary from human interaction, but it's actuary from um being hunted,

1524
01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:09,120
Speaker 1: and that has to affect the way that the sampling

1525
01:25:09,120 --> 01:25:12,840
Speaker 1: works and the population estimates work and the dynamics work. Altogether.

1526
01:25:12,880 --> 01:25:15,920
Speaker 1: You're eliminating large tracts of land and that's got to

1527
01:25:15,960 --> 01:25:19,240
Speaker 1: throw off this this sampling that is essential to the

1528
01:25:19,240 --> 01:25:22,719
Speaker 1: bear management plan itself totally. And that was our argument,

1529
01:25:23,280 --> 01:25:26,080
Speaker 1: you know, as part of this, you know you're this

1530
01:25:26,240 --> 01:25:30,599
Speaker 1: was illegal because you're bound by the management plan, and

1531
01:25:30,680 --> 01:25:34,000
Speaker 1: now you've removed all this land hundred and sixties six

1532
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:37,759
Speaker 1: thousand acres. I believe something like that um from hunting,

1533
01:25:38,320 --> 01:25:42,880
Speaker 1: and McDonald testified that, yeah, this creates basically sanctuaries that

1534
01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:46,400
Speaker 1: eliminate hunting pressure, and bears will move to that or

1535
01:25:46,520 --> 01:25:48,439
Speaker 1: stay in that because some of them are so large

1536
01:25:48,439 --> 01:25:51,639
Speaker 1: that they won't ever leave it um during that time,

1537
01:25:52,200 --> 01:25:57,840
Speaker 1: which then creates this booming population, which then is a

1538
01:25:58,000 --> 01:26:02,000
Speaker 1: threat to the adjacent populated areas of people, which is

1539
01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:04,640
Speaker 1: where you're going to have more problems, you know. And

1540
01:26:04,680 --> 01:26:08,439
Speaker 1: then on top of that is the counting mechanism. You know,

1541
01:26:09,320 --> 01:26:11,560
Speaker 1: the way they do it is, you know, in a nutshell,

1542
01:26:12,240 --> 01:26:15,960
Speaker 1: is tagging bears and then they're released, and then you're

1543
01:26:16,000 --> 01:26:18,719
Speaker 1: seeing how many are harvested, and you're you know, comparing

1544
01:26:18,920 --> 01:26:23,760
Speaker 1: data analysis evenly, you know, across geographic areas on that

1545
01:26:23,800 --> 01:26:27,680
Speaker 1: bears chances of being taken during the harvest. You eliminate

1546
01:26:27,720 --> 01:26:31,000
Speaker 1: all these areas. Now you've thrown off all those bears

1547
01:26:31,000 --> 01:26:34,600
Speaker 1: that possibly could have been harvested and they're safe, and

1548
01:26:34,640 --> 01:26:37,320
Speaker 1: it throws off this excuse the data as far as

1549
01:26:37,360 --> 01:26:40,960
Speaker 1: how many bears are they're actually there, which undermines again

1550
01:26:41,120 --> 01:26:43,840
Speaker 1: the bear management plan they're legally bound to follow by

1551
01:26:43,960 --> 01:26:49,800
Speaker 1: using sufficient and solid data. Yeah, it's tough. I mean.

1552
01:26:50,120 --> 01:26:55,640
Speaker 1: The reason why, um, the reason why this you know,

1553
01:26:55,640 --> 01:26:58,000
Speaker 1: this is important to talk about now among among everything

1554
01:26:58,600 --> 01:27:01,599
Speaker 1: um that's going on, it's because we're in a cycle

1555
01:27:01,600 --> 01:27:03,840
Speaker 1: where we can vote for this kind of stuff. If

1556
01:27:03,840 --> 01:27:06,360
Speaker 1: you ever out there and you feel like we've talked

1557
01:27:06,360 --> 01:27:08,760
Speaker 1: about single issue voting on this show before. I'm not

1558
01:27:08,800 --> 01:27:11,040
Speaker 1: a single issue voter, but boy, I like to vote

1559
01:27:11,040 --> 01:27:15,800
Speaker 1: against things that are objectively stupid. Um, if I can,

1560
01:27:16,600 --> 01:27:18,320
Speaker 1: I don't live in New Jersey, but I would, I

1561
01:27:18,360 --> 01:27:21,519
Speaker 1: would vote. I would vote against that governor on on

1562
01:27:21,640 --> 01:27:25,400
Speaker 1: the on the lines that you can that when he

1563
01:27:25,479 --> 01:27:29,439
Speaker 1: lets ideology like his ideological views and the views of

1564
01:27:29,479 --> 01:27:32,720
Speaker 1: his constituency, and that in that realm move policy in

1565
01:27:32,720 --> 01:27:35,280
Speaker 1: the way that he has, what's gonna stop him from

1566
01:27:35,320 --> 01:27:37,680
Speaker 1: doing that in every other in every other case that

1567
01:27:37,760 --> 01:27:41,679
Speaker 1: he has power to change. I mean, he's ruling against

1568
01:27:41,720 --> 01:27:45,320
Speaker 1: his own biologists. That's his own state biologists who have

1569
01:27:45,360 --> 01:27:48,920
Speaker 1: put this together. He's saying nope, and now it's totally politicized.

1570
01:27:48,960 --> 01:27:52,479
Speaker 1: It's no longer biological, it's political. Yeah, he's used his

1571
01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:55,960
Speaker 1: executive power to stop bear hunting on all public land.

1572
01:27:56,360 --> 01:27:59,559
Speaker 1: And then said and then made a statement, and it

1573
01:27:59,680 --> 01:28:04,160
Speaker 1: reads this, this means that hunt will be the last

1574
01:28:04,200 --> 01:28:11,200
Speaker 1: bear hunt under my administration. Politically motivated. He could be

1575
01:28:11,280 --> 01:28:16,599
Speaker 1: right because in one he's up for re election. Yeah,

1576
01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:20,679
Speaker 1: he may not have another administration. Yeah, maybe he's telling

1577
01:28:20,680 --> 01:28:23,880
Speaker 1: the truth. There there in lies the political gamesmanship of

1578
01:28:23,960 --> 01:28:27,479
Speaker 1: public speaking. But when he made that, he tweeted that,

1579
01:28:27,520 --> 01:28:30,760
Speaker 1: he said it at a COVID meeting that this would

1580
01:28:30,760 --> 01:28:33,160
Speaker 1: be the last, and then afterwards he tweeted it like

1581
01:28:33,600 --> 01:28:37,559
Speaker 1: it didn't make any sense and he's just completely full

1582
01:28:37,600 --> 01:28:41,400
Speaker 1: of it, Like I mean, he's either blatantly lying to

1583
01:28:41,520 --> 01:28:45,400
Speaker 1: his constituents or he doesn't understand how policy and procedure

1584
01:28:45,439 --> 01:28:47,960
Speaker 1: work in his state, because this is a separate issue

1585
01:28:48,040 --> 01:28:51,479
Speaker 1: from the lawsuit. Yeah, but I think he doesn't. I

1586
01:28:51,760 --> 01:28:55,200
Speaker 1: think he doesn't. A bombastic political statement is way more

1587
01:28:55,240 --> 01:28:57,320
Speaker 1: effective than a nuanced thing like, Hey, I did what

1588
01:28:57,360 --> 01:29:00,479
Speaker 1: I can do, guys, trust me, will you more later

1589
01:29:00,520 --> 01:29:03,680
Speaker 1: if we can. It's it reads a lot easier in

1590
01:29:03,720 --> 01:29:06,479
Speaker 1: a in a a snippet that I just read from

1591
01:29:06,479 --> 01:29:09,400
Speaker 1: a press release. Then we're working on it. You know,

1592
01:29:09,439 --> 01:29:11,400
Speaker 1: it's complex, and we're trying to talk. We're trying to

1593
01:29:11,760 --> 01:29:14,200
Speaker 1: talk to the scientists and wildlife biologists and make sure

1594
01:29:14,240 --> 01:29:16,880
Speaker 1: that we hear each one and then take their all

1595
01:29:16,920 --> 01:29:19,400
Speaker 1: of their opinions in and try to suss out exactly

1596
01:29:19,479 --> 01:29:21,559
Speaker 1: what's going on here and then make the best decision

1597
01:29:21,600 --> 01:29:24,280
Speaker 1: for the entire population of our state. Not that instead

1598
01:29:24,280 --> 01:29:26,240
Speaker 1: of saying that it like we shut it down, don't worry,

1599
01:29:26,240 --> 01:29:30,519
Speaker 1: we got you. Well, what he did that too, didn't

1600
01:29:30,560 --> 01:29:33,360
Speaker 1: have anything to do with it. What is referring to

1601
01:29:33,479 --> 01:29:36,559
Speaker 1: there is that as a matter of policy, every seven

1602
01:29:36,640 --> 01:29:39,800
Speaker 1: years new Jersey code has to be renewed, so they

1603
01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:41,680
Speaker 1: don't keep a bunch of garbage on the books. And

1604
01:29:41,760 --> 01:29:44,360
Speaker 1: you know, you get those eighteen hundred laws from the

1605
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:46,240
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds that if you sleep with your boots on,

1606
01:29:46,320 --> 01:29:48,400
Speaker 1: you need to go to jail or something. So like

1607
01:29:48,439 --> 01:29:52,280
Speaker 1: every seven years, all of their codes have to be renewed.

1608
01:29:53,360 --> 01:29:57,000
Speaker 1: So at the end of twenty one the game codes

1609
01:29:57,040 --> 01:30:00,800
Speaker 1: are up for renewal. It's seven years. The policy is

1610
01:30:00,920 --> 01:30:04,439
Speaker 1: up in June of this year before that, so it's

1611
01:30:04,479 --> 01:30:07,000
Speaker 1: probably gonna hold things up right. It's going to become

1612
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:09,479
Speaker 1: a flashpoint again. So what they want to do is

1613
01:30:09,600 --> 01:30:14,679
Speaker 1: separate it for approval process because it doesn't expire until

1614
01:30:14,880 --> 01:30:16,800
Speaker 1: it doesn't expire until June, and they want to try

1615
01:30:16,800 --> 01:30:21,280
Speaker 1: to get this past because it's going the overall codes

1616
01:30:21,320 --> 01:30:23,479
Speaker 1: are going to expire soon. They want to get it

1617
01:30:23,520 --> 01:30:26,960
Speaker 1: past and go through the regulatory processes. So the fishing

1618
01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:31,879
Speaker 1: game last year, the Commission last year proposed to separate

1619
01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:34,320
Speaker 1: the two so they could pass all the other game codes,

1620
01:30:34,320 --> 01:30:37,639
Speaker 1: phishing codes and everything and then bring the two back together.

1621
01:30:37,840 --> 01:30:40,840
Speaker 1: It's not eliminating it. So either he's looking at it

1622
01:30:40,960 --> 01:30:44,120
Speaker 1: as phishing game proposed to eliminate the bear plan, which

1623
01:30:44,120 --> 01:30:47,160
Speaker 1: therefore eliminates the bear hunt, or he doesn't understand how

1624
01:30:47,160 --> 01:30:50,599
Speaker 1: the process is working, just lying. I think he's lying.

1625
01:30:51,160 --> 01:30:53,600
Speaker 1: I would think that he's lying. I've never met the guy.

1626
01:30:53,640 --> 01:30:56,800
Speaker 1: But when you think of like, here's another example of

1627
01:30:56,840 --> 01:30:58,880
Speaker 1: how how we're just in La La land right now,

1628
01:30:58,920 --> 01:31:02,960
Speaker 1: because Governor Murphy is not only suggesting like removing hunting

1629
01:31:03,520 --> 01:31:05,880
Speaker 1: as an effective management tool. He's not saying like, hey,

1630
01:31:06,240 --> 01:31:08,400
Speaker 1: just get rid of hunting and stop worrying about the bears.

1631
01:31:09,439 --> 01:31:13,519
Speaker 1: He's saying, there's there's a viable replacement. And there's a

1632
01:31:13,560 --> 01:31:15,880
Speaker 1: management policy report that I just pulled up here that

1633
01:31:16,160 --> 01:31:20,240
Speaker 1: his administration issued that suggests the most effective means to

1634
01:31:20,240 --> 01:31:23,000
Speaker 1: control over abundant games pieces in a cost effective manner

1635
01:31:23,600 --> 01:31:31,920
Speaker 1: would be fertility control to lurk. Fertility control. But they

1636
01:31:31,920 --> 01:31:34,840
Speaker 1: tried that in Jersey also in the area with deer,

1637
01:31:35,479 --> 01:31:38,120
Speaker 1: failed miserably. They tried it on Staten Island last year,

1638
01:31:38,479 --> 01:31:42,520
Speaker 1: failed miserably after investing six million dollars. And so fertility

1639
01:31:42,560 --> 01:31:47,120
Speaker 1: control physical chemical or whatever. There's another report in two

1640
01:31:47,160 --> 01:31:51,320
Speaker 1: thousand six entitled an analysis of the feasibility of using

1641
01:31:51,320 --> 01:31:54,640
Speaker 1: fertility control to managing Jersey black bear populations. Why are

1642
01:31:54,760 --> 01:31:59,320
Speaker 1: why are we spending money? Even looking at this? They

1643
01:31:59,360 --> 01:32:02,439
Speaker 1: concluded that fertility control, either chemical or physical, was not

1644
01:32:02,520 --> 01:32:06,880
Speaker 1: a viable tool for bear populace control, and they pointed

1645
01:32:06,920 --> 01:32:09,519
Speaker 1: out that during years immediately following a managed bear hunt

1646
01:32:09,520 --> 01:32:17,120
Speaker 1: accompanied by public education, human bear conflicts declined significantly. This

1647
01:32:17,479 --> 01:32:20,479
Speaker 1: is where the rubber meets the road. This is where

1648
01:32:20,920 --> 01:32:23,880
Speaker 1: anonyms for the voiceless in their ideologies to run up

1649
01:32:23,880 --> 01:32:29,400
Speaker 1: against political office and the and a constituency that is

1650
01:32:29,479 --> 01:32:32,639
Speaker 1: more inclined to believe that argument than than the complex

1651
01:32:32,720 --> 01:32:38,040
Speaker 1: argument of wildlife management and cohabitation policies. Uh, full stop.

1652
01:32:38,360 --> 01:32:43,360
Speaker 1: But that's what this is. Yeah, you know, theory and

1653
01:32:44,640 --> 01:32:49,120
Speaker 1: you know philosophy are great, but they oftentimes leave out

1654
01:32:49,160 --> 01:32:52,800
Speaker 1: the real world implication, whether that's human nature or just

1655
01:32:53,000 --> 01:32:57,040
Speaker 1: natural reactions of nature themselves. Yeah, and so here we

1656
01:32:57,080 --> 01:33:01,479
Speaker 1: get back to the bodily autonomy argument that I've heard very,

1657
01:33:01,600 --> 01:33:05,559
Speaker 1: very often in the philosophies of animal rights activists. They

1658
01:33:05,600 --> 01:33:09,120
Speaker 1: want animals to have bodily autonomy, yet when there's too

1659
01:33:09,120 --> 01:33:13,439
Speaker 1: many of them, they want to catch them and castrate them. Yeah,

1660
01:33:13,479 --> 01:33:19,200
Speaker 1: And and inject chemicals, inject human chemicals, human created chemicals

1661
01:33:19,200 --> 01:33:23,200
Speaker 1: into animals to make them unfertile, hence to control their population.

1662
01:33:23,280 --> 01:33:26,839
Speaker 1: Because why control their population, Well, because they are encroaching

1663
01:33:26,840 --> 01:33:30,160
Speaker 1: into the habitat of humans themselves, the habitat that we

1664
01:33:30,240 --> 01:33:33,639
Speaker 1: created that pushed them into a situation where they then

1665
01:33:33,720 --> 01:33:37,120
Speaker 1: had to come into our habitat to eat and to

1666
01:33:37,120 --> 01:33:42,559
Speaker 1: to thrive. Now we're willing to castrate them because of it.

1667
01:33:43,000 --> 01:33:46,479
Speaker 1: And and animal rights folks are arguing that that is

1668
01:33:46,520 --> 01:33:48,920
Speaker 1: the right way to do for the animals rights. How

1669
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:53,519
Speaker 1: is that even in the realm of possibility, it makes

1670
01:33:53,720 --> 01:33:58,040
Speaker 1: no sense. I mean they like to like, you know,

1671
01:33:58,160 --> 01:34:02,080
Speaker 1: Paul did it on there, you know, gay rights, women's rights,

1672
01:34:02,160 --> 01:34:04,280
Speaker 1: whatever he was talking about, and you know we should

1673
01:34:04,360 --> 01:34:07,680
Speaker 1: be applying those same things. Well the example you just

1674
01:34:07,720 --> 01:34:09,920
Speaker 1: gave us exactly right, would you do this to a woman,

1675
01:34:10,280 --> 01:34:13,000
Speaker 1: you know, or to a male you castrate um or

1676
01:34:13,439 --> 01:34:16,880
Speaker 1: you know whatever, forced abortions what you know? You know,

1677
01:34:17,040 --> 01:34:22,160
Speaker 1: so like their their whole ideology falls apart when the

1678
01:34:22,240 --> 01:34:26,360
Speaker 1: real world works. That's one of the things that has

1679
01:34:26,360 --> 01:34:28,679
Speaker 1: happened to me before. And I think it's part of

1680
01:34:28,680 --> 01:34:32,519
Speaker 1: of the animal rights debate, and it's part of how

1681
01:34:32,560 --> 01:34:34,960
Speaker 1: they argue there they have certain and Paul didn't, to

1682
01:34:35,080 --> 01:34:37,800
Speaker 1: his credit, didn't really use this, although he didn't have

1683
01:34:37,800 --> 01:34:41,559
Speaker 1: a chance too because we were arguing about rice. Um

1684
01:34:41,840 --> 01:34:45,360
Speaker 1: didn't use this, but it's been used on me before

1685
01:34:45,400 --> 01:34:47,559
Speaker 1: where we pull this rip chord when you get back

1686
01:34:47,640 --> 01:34:50,720
Speaker 1: into a corner in a conversation, you pull this rip chord. Well,

1687
01:34:51,120 --> 01:34:55,360
Speaker 1: you know, slavery, slavery everybody, you know a hundred years ago,

1688
01:34:55,439 --> 01:34:58,720
Speaker 1: two hundred years ago, slavery was welcomed by everyone, and

1689
01:34:58,800 --> 01:35:02,559
Speaker 1: now hund it's of years later, we've progressed, progressed past that,

1690
01:35:02,640 --> 01:35:04,719
Speaker 1: and that's what's going to happen with killing of animals

1691
01:35:05,520 --> 01:35:08,120
Speaker 1: and that and and as an individual who doesn't want

1692
01:35:08,160 --> 01:35:10,920
Speaker 1: to get tied up in knots when it comes to

1693
01:35:11,000 --> 01:35:15,920
Speaker 1: what commentary my public statements, pushing somebody into a corner

1694
01:35:16,200 --> 01:35:18,800
Speaker 1: of like, so you, if you eat meat, you must

1695
01:35:18,800 --> 01:35:23,120
Speaker 1: be for slavery, like and even having to unpack those

1696
01:35:23,160 --> 01:35:26,840
Speaker 1: two things as if they were somehow related is the point.

1697
01:35:26,920 --> 01:35:30,120
Speaker 1: And that makes that's the the uncomfortable position that those

1698
01:35:30,120 --> 01:35:31,680
Speaker 1: folks would like to put you in, and they've tried

1699
01:35:31,720 --> 01:35:34,840
Speaker 1: to put me in before UM, I fully just cut

1700
01:35:34,880 --> 01:35:36,519
Speaker 1: that out of the last podcast we did where that

1701
01:35:36,600 --> 01:35:38,840
Speaker 1: was brought up, because I just feel like it's inappropriate.

1702
01:35:39,160 --> 01:35:40,760
Speaker 1: It's not it doesn't have anything to do with what

1703
01:35:40,800 --> 01:35:44,519
Speaker 1: we're talking about. UM. Yeah, it's a scary conflating. It's

1704
01:35:44,600 --> 01:35:50,240
Speaker 1: conflating two different, unrelated topics to justify their position. And

1705
01:35:50,280 --> 01:35:53,040
Speaker 1: if you just ignore it, just like, let's move on,

1706
01:35:53,120 --> 01:35:57,439
Speaker 1: let's let's get to the ramifications of mismanagement. What what

1707
01:35:57,439 --> 01:35:59,439
Speaker 1: what are those? Okay, how are we going to fix that?

1708
01:36:00,040 --> 01:36:02,759
Speaker 1: And now you start making them put facts down and

1709
01:36:03,080 --> 01:36:06,600
Speaker 1: things outside the philosophical and the theoretical. Yeah, I know,

1710
01:36:06,680 --> 01:36:08,519
Speaker 1: which is great. It's easy to sit there and say

1711
01:36:08,560 --> 01:36:12,559
Speaker 1: what should be done when you're not starving, when you

1712
01:36:12,600 --> 01:36:15,479
Speaker 1: don't have short resources, when you don't have when when

1713
01:36:15,600 --> 01:36:18,000
Speaker 1: when everything's going right, it's easy to see what you

1714
01:36:18,000 --> 01:36:20,320
Speaker 1: should do when you don't have a cohabitation problem with

1715
01:36:20,360 --> 01:36:23,200
Speaker 1: bears and humans. It's easy. That's why Africa becomes such

1716
01:36:23,200 --> 01:36:25,800
Speaker 1: a touch point here because they don't have the economic

1717
01:36:25,920 --> 01:36:29,360
Speaker 1: or the social value system that we do, not even

1718
01:36:29,400 --> 01:36:32,040
Speaker 1: value system that comes to economics that could there. You know,

1719
01:36:32,600 --> 01:36:36,120
Speaker 1: you can't when when you don't have a healthy economic environment,

1720
01:36:36,280 --> 01:36:39,320
Speaker 1: when people don't have money, they can't value animals in

1721
01:36:39,320 --> 01:36:41,439
Speaker 1: the way that they do when they are sitting in

1722
01:36:41,520 --> 01:36:44,160
Speaker 1: an air conditioned house and there is an elephant walking

1723
01:36:44,200 --> 01:36:47,080
Speaker 1: through their garden, Like that's the thing, Like you go,

1724
01:36:47,200 --> 01:36:49,719
Speaker 1: turn a bunch of lines, turn a pridate lines loose

1725
01:36:49,800 --> 01:36:54,320
Speaker 1: in uh in New York City, and those guys ideas

1726
01:36:54,320 --> 01:36:57,400
Speaker 1: are going to change very rapidly. Yeah, And and again,

1727
01:36:57,439 --> 01:37:00,479
Speaker 1: I will say, when I first came into the industry,

1728
01:37:00,479 --> 01:37:02,439
Speaker 1: there's a lot of things that I was fed in

1729
01:37:02,560 --> 01:37:05,120
Speaker 1: terms of like why is hunting good? A lot of

1730
01:37:05,120 --> 01:37:07,080
Speaker 1: like a lot of people told me this, this, this

1731
01:37:07,160 --> 01:37:10,439
Speaker 1: and this. Some of that stuff I still believe today.

1732
01:37:10,479 --> 01:37:12,280
Speaker 1: Some of that stuff I don't. Some have changed my

1733
01:37:12,320 --> 01:37:15,760
Speaker 1: mind on, some I've stayed consistent on. This is one

1734
01:37:15,800 --> 01:37:19,200
Speaker 1: of the things that I've gone to investigate. I'm like, well,

1735
01:37:19,560 --> 01:37:22,160
Speaker 1: how are hundreds of thousands of people animal rights activists

1736
01:37:22,320 --> 01:37:25,160
Speaker 1: and can they all really be this wrong? And so

1737
01:37:25,320 --> 01:37:27,840
Speaker 1: we've gone to investigate, and I'm I'm here to tell

1738
01:37:27,880 --> 01:37:30,920
Speaker 1: you I'm sorry. I really try and trying and will

1739
01:37:30,920 --> 01:37:32,880
Speaker 1: continue to try. And I'm not saying I'm gonna cut

1740
01:37:32,880 --> 01:37:36,040
Speaker 1: these people off from opportunities to speak on what they believe.

1741
01:37:36,600 --> 01:37:40,519
Speaker 1: But I have yet defined someone who can convince me

1742
01:37:41,880 --> 01:37:45,320
Speaker 1: that this this is anything but the the emotions over

1743
01:37:45,439 --> 01:37:49,759
Speaker 1: reality argument. That that where I began in this journey

1744
01:37:49,840 --> 01:37:54,240
Speaker 1: to try to understand um. And so it's not a

1745
01:37:54,439 --> 01:37:56,599
Speaker 1: this is not a statement I come to with with

1746
01:37:56,640 --> 01:37:58,840
Speaker 1: no thought, A statement that come to with lots and

1747
01:37:58,880 --> 01:38:01,840
Speaker 1: lots of thought. Uh, lots and lots of time spent

1748
01:38:02,520 --> 01:38:06,400
Speaker 1: thinking about it. Um. And that's where I am. And

1749
01:38:06,439 --> 01:38:08,160
Speaker 1: I've I've talked to lots of other folks that have

1750
01:38:08,280 --> 01:38:10,599
Speaker 1: tried the same thing and and come to the same

1751
01:38:10,600 --> 01:38:13,920
Speaker 1: conclusion that this just won't last. I don't think animal

1752
01:38:14,000 --> 01:38:16,559
Speaker 1: rights ideology has a leg to stand on it, and

1753
01:38:16,560 --> 01:38:18,680
Speaker 1: I don't think it's gonna last. For that reason. I

1754
01:38:18,720 --> 01:38:23,360
Speaker 1: think with time, I think it will rain. Um, you

1755
01:38:23,360 --> 01:38:30,280
Speaker 1: know it will fall apart. But no, no, I agree,

1756
01:38:31,040 --> 01:38:33,600
Speaker 1: it all comes. It's a it's a house of cards

1757
01:38:33,640 --> 01:38:38,400
Speaker 1: that comes falling down. The danger is Humane Society, United

1758
01:38:38,439 --> 01:38:42,120
Speaker 1: States Center for Biological Diversity, Sierra Club. These guys are

1759
01:38:42,200 --> 01:38:46,440
Speaker 1: running ballot initiatives in individual states, which is setting policy.

1760
01:38:46,920 --> 01:38:49,599
Speaker 1: It's here in Washington State. Can't use hounds, can't use bears.

1761
01:38:49,880 --> 01:38:53,639
Speaker 1: We now have a booming cat population. We're having issues

1762
01:38:53,640 --> 01:38:57,520
Speaker 1: with that. You know, the states killing cats like crazy,

1763
01:38:57,560 --> 01:39:00,160
Speaker 1: which is costing money. So now there's an econom I'm

1764
01:39:00,160 --> 01:39:02,920
Speaker 1: a factor into it. The cats are wasted, so there's

1765
01:39:02,920 --> 01:39:10,080
Speaker 1: your you know, ethical argument. You know, livestock is being predated. Uh,

1766
01:39:10,479 --> 01:39:13,240
Speaker 1: llamas and goats and everything else in people's yards are

1767
01:39:13,240 --> 01:39:18,120
Speaker 1: being eaten. People were being killed and attacked. It will fall,

1768
01:39:18,160 --> 01:39:21,360
Speaker 1: It falls apart. But the people who passed it still

1769
01:39:21,360 --> 01:39:23,640
Speaker 1: don't have to deal with the ramifications. It's those in

1770
01:39:23,680 --> 01:39:25,920
Speaker 1: the countryside and the rural areas have to do it.

1771
01:39:26,120 --> 01:39:29,879
Speaker 1: And there's no way to undo it legally. That's the problem.

1772
01:39:30,600 --> 01:39:33,880
Speaker 1: To reverse this ballot initiative in Washington or anywhere else,

1773
01:39:34,840 --> 01:39:37,400
Speaker 1: you can't get the legislature can't do it. You have

1774
01:39:37,479 --> 01:39:40,479
Speaker 1: to run another ballot initiative. And now, to run a

1775
01:39:40,479 --> 01:39:42,840
Speaker 1: ballot inititive, say in Washington State, you're gonna need two

1776
01:39:42,880 --> 01:39:46,160
Speaker 1: to five million dollars, And what's your messaging going to be,

1777
01:39:46,200 --> 01:39:48,920
Speaker 1: we want to kill more mountain lions. That's not gonna work.

1778
01:39:49,600 --> 01:39:51,799
Speaker 1: And where you're gonna get two to five million dollars

1779
01:39:51,840 --> 01:39:55,120
Speaker 1: in the hunting world to run a ballot initiative, you're not.

1780
01:39:55,479 --> 01:39:57,920
Speaker 1: So now you've lost it. Well, I'll tell you, like

1781
01:39:58,080 --> 01:40:00,360
Speaker 1: in a real world scenario, not that this. It's this

1782
01:40:00,479 --> 01:40:02,280
Speaker 1: in Montana in the way, that's this where you live.

1783
01:40:02,320 --> 01:40:04,799
Speaker 1: But I have a trail camera up in the mountains

1784
01:40:05,040 --> 01:40:07,719
Speaker 1: south of my house here not too far. This year,

1785
01:40:07,760 --> 01:40:13,200
Speaker 1: I've gotten dozens of pictures of wolves and and videos

1786
01:40:13,240 --> 01:40:16,400
Speaker 1: of wolves what can only be it's out of sight,

1787
01:40:16,439 --> 01:40:20,200
Speaker 1: but they are chasing cattle and they could what only

1788
01:40:20,200 --> 01:40:22,600
Speaker 1: could be the sound of them killing one of them

1789
01:40:22,640 --> 01:40:25,600
Speaker 1: on my trail camps. Um. I've been through talking to

1790
01:40:25,640 --> 01:40:27,240
Speaker 1: the game warden, I've talked to the U. S d

1791
01:40:27,320 --> 01:40:29,880
Speaker 1: A trappers, I've talked to trying to get ahold of

1792
01:40:29,880 --> 01:40:32,080
Speaker 1: the landowner in this in this case. But I say

1793
01:40:32,080 --> 01:40:35,000
Speaker 1: all this to say that when I'm driving from that

1794
01:40:35,040 --> 01:40:36,760
Speaker 1: spot where I have that trail camera, where I have

1795
01:40:36,960 --> 01:40:42,759
Speaker 1: video of wolves every harassing and very very likely killing cattle,

1796
01:40:43,400 --> 01:40:47,519
Speaker 1: I have to drive by a billboard and in that

1797
01:40:47,560 --> 01:40:51,040
Speaker 1: billboard is a wolf in a trap and it says

1798
01:40:51,240 --> 01:40:54,920
Speaker 1: stop the suffering and big letters above this wolf in

1799
01:40:54,960 --> 01:41:00,880
Speaker 1: the trap and trapping in Montana, et cetera. The this

1800
01:41:01,000 --> 01:41:04,840
Speaker 1: reality is is hilarious to me. You know that that

1801
01:41:04,920 --> 01:41:08,040
Speaker 1: these two things can exist on the same plane now wolves. Again,

1802
01:41:08,240 --> 01:41:11,559
Speaker 1: very complicated situation. We've discussed it on this show at length.

1803
01:41:12,320 --> 01:41:15,000
Speaker 1: UM I had and I have some mixed feelings about

1804
01:41:15,040 --> 01:41:19,559
Speaker 1: that um about that scenario, but I think that stands

1805
01:41:19,680 --> 01:41:23,120
Speaker 1: to make your point that that this is almost like

1806
01:41:23,160 --> 01:41:26,800
Speaker 1: a very that's a social dichotomy here. You know, you

1807
01:41:26,880 --> 01:41:30,040
Speaker 1: have and I used to live in Illinois. In Illinois,

1808
01:41:30,080 --> 01:41:34,639
Speaker 1: Chicago politics reign supreme. But that's a tiny part of

1809
01:41:34,720 --> 01:41:38,559
Speaker 1: the state, similar in very many places in the country.

1810
01:41:38,720 --> 01:41:42,080
Speaker 1: So it's just something to think about. Yeah, if you

1811
01:41:42,160 --> 01:41:45,080
Speaker 1: look at it, you know, on a state by state basis,

1812
01:41:45,120 --> 01:41:47,720
Speaker 1: which is how these guys are operating, whether it's in

1813
01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:51,479
Speaker 1: the late legislature or through the ballots, that's exactly what

1814
01:41:51,560 --> 01:41:53,840
Speaker 1: it is. They go in and they're appealing to the

1815
01:41:53,880 --> 01:41:56,160
Speaker 1: voting block of the city. So it's really an urban

1816
01:41:56,280 --> 01:42:01,000
Speaker 1: versus rural issue, and the ones, most of the ones

1817
01:42:01,040 --> 01:42:05,400
Speaker 1: in the urban voting block, don't understand wildlife management, don't

1818
01:42:05,479 --> 01:42:10,480
Speaker 1: understand why this is happening. It sounds reasonable to them.

1819
01:42:10,640 --> 01:42:13,439
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to see an animals suffer. They use that

1820
01:42:13,479 --> 01:42:18,320
Speaker 1: emotion in their campaigns. They passed this, It doesn't it

1821
01:42:18,439 --> 01:42:21,519
Speaker 1: there's no effect on their life because they don't have it,

1822
01:42:21,680 --> 01:42:25,680
Speaker 1: but your rancher, your farmers, your people living in the

1823
01:42:25,720 --> 01:42:30,560
Speaker 1: suburbs on that wildface, you know, the wilderness societal interface,

1824
01:42:30,880 --> 01:42:33,040
Speaker 1: that they have to live with this and there's nothing

1825
01:42:33,080 --> 01:42:36,240
Speaker 1: they can do about it. Yeah. Well, hopefully we're not

1826
01:42:36,280 --> 01:42:39,599
Speaker 1: depressing everybody out there today. But I do think that

1827
01:42:39,640 --> 01:42:42,880
Speaker 1: as we I was really glad that that you've reached

1828
01:42:42,880 --> 01:42:45,120
Speaker 1: out to me about the New Jersey very situation, because

1829
01:42:45,840 --> 01:42:49,280
Speaker 1: it sets up so well to try to first understand

1830
01:42:49,920 --> 01:42:54,040
Speaker 1: the animal rights mentality, do our best to our level

1831
01:42:54,080 --> 01:42:56,840
Speaker 1: best to understand it and not shirk that responsibility. As

1832
01:42:56,840 --> 01:42:58,880
Speaker 1: you said, not just listen to them so we can reply,

1833
01:42:58,960 --> 01:43:03,240
Speaker 1: but really listen and try to understand, and hope I

1834
01:43:03,240 --> 01:43:07,120
Speaker 1: I still hope that there's some animal rights vegan activist

1835
01:43:07,200 --> 01:43:10,599
Speaker 1: person out there that can then push me further and

1836
01:43:10,680 --> 01:43:13,800
Speaker 1: make me think harder about the things that we've said today,

1837
01:43:14,040 --> 01:43:17,080
Speaker 1: um and make me second guess the thing in a

1838
01:43:17,080 --> 01:43:18,720
Speaker 1: way that's going to make my argument better when I

1839
01:43:18,720 --> 01:43:22,320
Speaker 1: bring it back to them that I'm not saying that's

1840
01:43:22,320 --> 01:43:25,040
Speaker 1: never happened. But when when we get in these things,

1841
01:43:25,120 --> 01:43:28,799
Speaker 1: I mostly just end up trying to get them comfortable

1842
01:43:28,840 --> 01:43:32,040
Speaker 1: so they can speak and the more they speak, the

1843
01:43:32,120 --> 01:43:36,720
Speaker 1: more it turns into a problem for them. Um yeah,

1844
01:43:36,920 --> 01:43:40,640
Speaker 1: they're the sound bites are very effectives for hacking that

1845
01:43:40,920 --> 01:43:43,439
Speaker 1: it starts falling apart, and so you start going down

1846
01:43:43,520 --> 01:43:46,280
Speaker 1: that and they'll shift to shift to another sound bite argument.

1847
01:43:47,080 --> 01:43:49,639
Speaker 1: I wish we didn't stop it, Rice on that last interview.

1848
01:43:49,680 --> 01:43:51,920
Speaker 1: I wish that we didn't. I wish that was we

1849
01:43:51,960 --> 01:43:55,600
Speaker 1: could have gone deeper into like regenerative agriculture versus some

1850
01:43:56,800 --> 01:44:00,320
Speaker 1: alternative that Paul had, some alternative type of agricul ulture

1851
01:44:00,800 --> 01:44:03,120
Speaker 1: that that took care of the land and the animals

1852
01:44:03,160 --> 01:44:06,840
Speaker 1: and was bio diverse and and had and supported healthy

1853
01:44:06,880 --> 01:44:10,280
Speaker 1: soil and supported uh feeding billions of people. I wish

1854
01:44:10,280 --> 01:44:12,559
Speaker 1: he had that because I'm starting to try to develop

1855
01:44:12,600 --> 01:44:15,000
Speaker 1: that on my own as a way to just understand

1856
01:44:15,040 --> 01:44:17,800
Speaker 1: better my own philosophies around hunting and the proximity to

1857
01:44:17,840 --> 01:44:20,519
Speaker 1: my food and a fair kill ethic that we've tried

1858
01:44:20,560 --> 01:44:24,120
Speaker 1: to talk about on this show. So, like, if there's

1859
01:44:24,120 --> 01:44:26,519
Speaker 1: anybody out there listening that's an animal rights activists or

1860
01:44:26,520 --> 01:44:29,439
Speaker 1: you know one, I want to talk to one of

1861
01:44:29,520 --> 01:44:33,519
Speaker 1: you people that has this in in your Bandalier, I

1862
01:44:33,520 --> 01:44:35,599
Speaker 1: want to talk to somebody that has thought this ship

1863
01:44:35,720 --> 01:44:39,559
Speaker 1: through to the end game, um, and doesn't just right off.

1864
01:44:39,560 --> 01:44:41,679
Speaker 1: The end game is something you'll figure out once everybody

1865
01:44:41,680 --> 01:44:46,439
Speaker 1: stops fucking killing animals. It's this is please somebody, come on,

1866
01:44:46,520 --> 01:44:49,559
Speaker 1: let's go. Bring it on. I'll come and whenever we

1867
01:44:49,560 --> 01:44:52,040
Speaker 1: can have a theater, I'll come and I'll pay for

1868
01:44:52,400 --> 01:44:55,880
Speaker 1: a whole live show and we'll give all the proceeds

1869
01:44:55,880 --> 01:44:58,479
Speaker 1: to animal rights. If you can come with with the

1870
01:44:58,520 --> 01:45:01,280
Speaker 1: plan that the that involved me having to eat fake

1871
01:45:01,320 --> 01:45:05,240
Speaker 1: fucking meat. If you can come with a plan, come.

1872
01:45:05,360 --> 01:45:08,800
Speaker 1: Most of most of their end game relies on the

1873
01:45:08,880 --> 01:45:14,519
Speaker 1: myth of nature balances itself, which is a myth. If

1874
01:45:14,520 --> 01:45:17,120
Speaker 1: we didn't exist, maybe it maybe it would, But we

1875
01:45:17,160 --> 01:45:19,760
Speaker 1: don't have a scenario where we don't exist. Yeah, exactly,

1876
01:45:19,760 --> 01:45:21,559
Speaker 1: you know, So that's where you have to suspend reality.

1877
01:45:21,600 --> 01:45:25,160
Speaker 1: We are the largest piece of the ecosystem. We've built cities, roads,

1878
01:45:25,280 --> 01:45:28,960
Speaker 1: farms for vegetables at the vegan z that all takes

1879
01:45:28,960 --> 01:45:32,080
Speaker 1: wildlife habitat, that compresses the other wildlife you know, into

1880
01:45:32,120 --> 01:45:35,160
Speaker 1: those areas which are is a finite amount of carrying

1881
01:45:35,200 --> 01:45:40,120
Speaker 1: capacity for praise species, predator species, you know, So those

1882
01:45:40,400 --> 01:45:45,520
Speaker 1: boom and bus cycles become even more pronounced and exaggerated,

1883
01:45:45,720 --> 01:45:49,720
Speaker 1: and the conflict with humans increases. So this idea that

1884
01:45:49,800 --> 01:45:53,200
Speaker 1: it balances itself is a myth. It might be in

1885
01:45:53,240 --> 01:45:56,920
Speaker 1: balanced for a nanosecond, but then it's something's booming or

1886
01:45:56,960 --> 01:46:01,519
Speaker 1: busting that either the praise species going up or going down,

1887
01:46:01,520 --> 01:46:05,160
Speaker 1: which and then trickles up to your predators. It's it's

1888
01:46:05,160 --> 01:46:09,200
Speaker 1: a myth, but that We talked to Dr Vlarry Skyst

1889
01:46:09,240 --> 01:46:11,000
Speaker 1: a couple of times, and the first time he came

1890
01:46:11,000 --> 01:46:13,960
Speaker 1: off is solely anti wolf. But the second time we

1891
01:46:14,000 --> 01:46:15,360
Speaker 1: had him on here a couple of months ago, he

1892
01:46:15,680 --> 01:46:18,799
Speaker 1: talked about intelligent intervention. He said, we have the ability

1893
01:46:18,840 --> 01:46:22,679
Speaker 1: to intervene intelligently on behalf of the animals and and

1894
01:46:22,840 --> 01:46:25,519
Speaker 1: that is what we should be doing. And that's like,

1895
01:46:25,600 --> 01:46:28,240
Speaker 1: that is a core argument that that someone should make

1896
01:46:28,240 --> 01:46:30,599
Speaker 1: to Governor Murphy. Somebody should lock him in a closet

1897
01:46:30,880 --> 01:46:34,040
Speaker 1: and make him listen to to to some reason in

1898
01:46:34,200 --> 01:46:38,439
Speaker 1: terms of we can intelligently intervene here and people are

1899
01:46:38,439 --> 01:46:40,800
Speaker 1: gonna get fed in the process, people are gonna be

1900
01:46:40,840 --> 01:46:43,679
Speaker 1: able to eat in the process, people are gonna understand

1901
01:46:43,880 --> 01:46:46,240
Speaker 1: they're going to have a steak in the natural world,

1902
01:46:46,520 --> 01:46:49,679
Speaker 1: which is a vital importance for the future of all

1903
01:46:49,720 --> 01:46:51,840
Speaker 1: of what we do is that people have a real

1904
01:46:52,120 --> 01:46:55,080
Speaker 1: steak in the natural world and having a real stake

1905
01:46:55,080 --> 01:46:57,600
Speaker 1: in the natural world. One good example of that is

1906
01:46:57,640 --> 01:47:00,680
Speaker 1: eating things that come from it and and relying on

1907
01:47:00,760 --> 01:47:02,760
Speaker 1: it for your sustenance in some small way, or even

1908
01:47:02,800 --> 01:47:04,800
Speaker 1: if it's a tiny little way. Well, he and Paul

1909
01:47:04,800 --> 01:47:06,920
Speaker 1: would probably have the same thing. Eat the berries that

1910
01:47:07,000 --> 01:47:09,439
Speaker 1: the bears are eating and you'll be good, I mean,

1911
01:47:10,080 --> 01:47:12,280
Speaker 1: and then you're taking away from the bear and the well,

1912
01:47:12,280 --> 01:47:14,479
Speaker 1: then the way what if the bear again, you know,

1913
01:47:15,000 --> 01:47:18,720
Speaker 1: like well again, Jersey bears. They aren't like remember when

1914
01:47:18,720 --> 01:47:20,920
Speaker 1: we went hunt in Idaho. They're not the small mountain

1915
01:47:20,960 --> 01:47:24,000
Speaker 1: bears of you know, one to two hundred pounds or

1916
01:47:24,040 --> 01:47:26,439
Speaker 1: so or maybe topping out at three at the max.

1917
01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:28,800
Speaker 1: These are six seven, eight hundred pound bears. I mean,

1918
01:47:28,800 --> 01:47:31,920
Speaker 1: they're grizzly size almost. Oh yeah, man, And you're you're thinking,

1919
01:47:31,960 --> 01:47:35,040
Speaker 1: like the new the North Carolina bears are becoming famous.

1920
01:47:35,080 --> 01:47:37,160
Speaker 1: I mean, these are crop fed bears. And there's some

1921
01:47:37,240 --> 01:47:40,519
Speaker 1: there's some parts. We had um a gentleman on who

1922
01:47:40,720 --> 01:47:44,400
Speaker 1: um man, I'm gonna forget his name. I'll think of it, Um,

1923
01:47:44,560 --> 01:47:48,920
Speaker 1: Bryce something or other. I've apologized. Bryce, who's talking about

1924
01:47:48,920 --> 01:47:51,679
Speaker 1: a valley in Montana where there you have two headwalls

1925
01:47:51,680 --> 01:47:54,960
Speaker 1: of a canyon and you have corn and soybeans beneath,

1926
01:47:55,080 --> 01:47:57,559
Speaker 1: and the bears have come habituated to that and it's

1927
01:47:57,600 --> 01:47:59,800
Speaker 1: causing a lot of problems, a lot, a lot, a

1928
01:47:59,800 --> 01:48:02,680
Speaker 1: lot of problems. And if you care about bears and

1929
01:48:02,760 --> 01:48:05,559
Speaker 1: you name them and you think that some of them

1930
01:48:05,560 --> 01:48:10,200
Speaker 1: were suspenders, and and on and on you go, it's

1931
01:48:10,320 --> 01:48:13,599
Speaker 1: hard to rationalize. And I get that, I understand that,

1932
01:48:13,640 --> 01:48:16,840
Speaker 1: but man, it is vital that we all try to

1933
01:48:16,920 --> 01:48:20,320
Speaker 1: find some objectivity here. UM. And the fact that we

1934
01:48:20,400 --> 01:48:24,280
Speaker 1: can vote, you know, really vote this to be true

1935
01:48:24,720 --> 01:48:28,519
Speaker 1: is UM is important to me. And again, listen, I

1936
01:48:28,920 --> 01:48:30,600
Speaker 1: We've said on this show it is hard to it

1937
01:48:30,720 --> 01:48:36,800
Speaker 1: is hard to vote for healthy ecosystems, gun rights, UM,

1938
01:48:37,040 --> 01:48:41,879
Speaker 1: wildlife management, and public land access all in the same ballot.

1939
01:48:42,240 --> 01:48:44,120
Speaker 1: It's hard to pick a candidate that can do all

1940
01:48:44,160 --> 01:48:46,960
Speaker 1: four of those things for you. In fact, I don't

1941
01:48:46,960 --> 01:48:48,519
Speaker 1: know if I can think of one that will do

1942
01:48:49,160 --> 01:48:50,720
Speaker 1: all four of those things. I'm sure if I sat

1943
01:48:50,760 --> 01:48:52,519
Speaker 1: and thought about it, I could find somebody that would

1944
01:48:52,520 --> 01:48:54,439
Speaker 1: be pretty good at all four of those things. But

1945
01:48:55,479 --> 01:48:57,479
Speaker 1: if if that is the platform that I would create

1946
01:48:57,479 --> 01:49:00,400
Speaker 1: for myself, boy, it's gonna be hard to to just

1947
01:49:00,439 --> 01:49:04,280
Speaker 1: sit on a local, state, or national federal level and

1948
01:49:04,400 --> 01:49:07,880
Speaker 1: find someone that imbibes all those things. It's just gonna

1949
01:49:07,880 --> 01:49:11,880
Speaker 1: be difficult to do that. So yeah, in this day

1950
01:49:11,880 --> 01:49:13,679
Speaker 1: and age, so you got you just have to look

1951
01:49:13,680 --> 01:49:18,960
Speaker 1: at it, uh, issue by issue, politician by politician, um,

1952
01:49:19,160 --> 01:49:21,600
Speaker 1: and make the best decision that You're gonna have to

1953
01:49:21,680 --> 01:49:25,839
Speaker 1: rank them, you know. Um, You're gonna have to rank them.

1954
01:49:25,920 --> 01:49:29,200
Speaker 1: And it's like, what's the most important thing to me? Um,

1955
01:49:29,360 --> 01:49:31,600
Speaker 1: The reason I moved to Montana's because one of the like,

1956
01:49:31,800 --> 01:49:34,200
Speaker 1: probably the most important thing to me is access to

1957
01:49:34,240 --> 01:49:37,639
Speaker 1: wild places to go and recreate and and get my food.

1958
01:49:38,400 --> 01:49:40,360
Speaker 1: That's why I live here. So I'm gonna put that

1959
01:49:40,439 --> 01:49:43,040
Speaker 1: pretty close to the top. But I love my family

1960
01:49:43,080 --> 01:49:46,479
Speaker 1: and my ability to defend them is paramount. So I

1961
01:49:46,479 --> 01:49:49,840
Speaker 1: gotta make decisions based on those things. Um. It's and

1962
01:49:49,880 --> 01:49:53,519
Speaker 1: it ain't easy, but I gotta do it. So and

1963
01:49:53,640 --> 01:49:56,559
Speaker 1: it's it leaves wide open room for somebody to hate

1964
01:49:56,600 --> 01:49:59,400
Speaker 1: me on either end. But those are the things that

1965
01:49:59,400 --> 01:50:01,599
Speaker 1: that I can't control. So I'm just gonna look at

1966
01:50:01,640 --> 01:50:04,240
Speaker 1: like what are my priorities, and what are the winds

1967
01:50:04,280 --> 01:50:06,559
Speaker 1: I really need? And what what are things we can

1968
01:50:06,600 --> 01:50:10,360
Speaker 1: work on later, you know, And so I asked yourself

1969
01:50:10,360 --> 01:50:11,800
Speaker 1: to those questions. We're never gonna tell you what to

1970
01:50:11,880 --> 01:50:14,400
Speaker 1: vote for, but my god, if you live in New Jersey,

1971
01:50:14,400 --> 01:50:17,400
Speaker 1: I would just move if I was. That's what I did.

1972
01:50:18,439 --> 01:50:20,599
Speaker 1: I moved back home to Washington State, which is pretty

1973
01:50:20,680 --> 01:50:23,559
Speaker 1: much the Jersey of the West, you know, from gun

1974
01:50:23,680 --> 01:50:26,479
Speaker 1: rights to hunting and wildlife management. Oh yeah, we could

1975
01:50:26,479 --> 01:50:29,639
Speaker 1: talk about Oregon too if we need to. They're basically

1976
01:50:29,920 --> 01:50:33,400
Speaker 1: basically the same one and the same, you know. So

1977
01:50:33,120 --> 01:50:36,479
Speaker 1: it's tough. You know, I live one mile from one

1978
01:50:36,560 --> 01:50:39,519
Speaker 1: and a half miles from the Idaho from Idaho, literally,

1979
01:50:39,560 --> 01:50:43,200
Speaker 1: like I could probably hit a driver over there. Um

1980
01:50:43,280 --> 01:50:45,559
Speaker 1: you know, I'm about ready to move across the border.

1981
01:50:45,600 --> 01:50:47,679
Speaker 1: There wouldn't be far, you wouldn't have to go far.

1982
01:50:49,479 --> 01:50:52,720
Speaker 1: Don't tell anybody about it. Um yeah, man, Well, what

1983
01:50:52,800 --> 01:50:55,280
Speaker 1: can people do in terms of sports and alliance? What

1984
01:50:55,320 --> 01:50:59,160
Speaker 1: would you if you're living in New Jersey or um elsewhere?

1985
01:51:00,880 --> 01:51:03,519
Speaker 1: Why you vote? And how and and what drives you

1986
01:51:03,560 --> 01:51:06,080
Speaker 1: to vote for? What for? What? Politicians. I think it

1987
01:51:06,120 --> 01:51:08,160
Speaker 1: is just as important, so in terms of learning about

1988
01:51:08,160 --> 01:51:10,280
Speaker 1: the source of alliance, kind of getting aligned with what

1989
01:51:10,320 --> 01:51:12,400
Speaker 1: you guys are doing, and understanding the fights that you're

1990
01:51:12,400 --> 01:51:15,840
Speaker 1: in right now. What can people do? Yeah, voting. Voting

1991
01:51:15,960 --> 01:51:19,599
Speaker 1: is you know, being politically active, but become politically really active,

1992
01:51:19,720 --> 01:51:22,120
Speaker 1: you know, especially when these issues arise in your state.

1993
01:51:22,640 --> 01:51:24,800
Speaker 1: We have you know, an email you can sign up

1994
01:51:24,840 --> 01:51:27,160
Speaker 1: for and put your state in and it'll when we

1995
01:51:27,240 --> 01:51:30,759
Speaker 1: send out alerts and posted on social media. There's always

1996
01:51:30,800 --> 01:51:35,320
Speaker 1: an ask. There's always a call this number or sending

1997
01:51:35,479 --> 01:51:40,559
Speaker 1: emails here. Make noise, you know, whether it's something that's

1998
01:51:40,560 --> 01:51:43,680
Speaker 1: gonna be discussed at a commission meeting or whether it's

1999
01:51:43,680 --> 01:51:47,040
Speaker 1: in the legislature. They need to hear from you. I mean,

2000
01:51:47,160 --> 01:51:51,120
Speaker 1: it's it, it's paramount, and it doesn't take a whole

2001
01:51:51,160 --> 01:51:53,639
Speaker 1: lot of people. You know. That's where the other side,

2002
01:51:53,680 --> 01:51:57,479
Speaker 1: the Mr Right side has us whooped. I mean, they're

2003
01:51:57,520 --> 01:52:01,879
Speaker 1: making noise in the media, they're making noise by calling,

2004
01:52:02,360 --> 01:52:05,639
Speaker 1: you know, and they go on rant. The squeaky wheel

2005
01:52:05,640 --> 01:52:09,920
Speaker 1: gets the grease, you know, and so they these politicians

2006
01:52:09,960 --> 01:52:13,559
Speaker 1: are going to appease the squeaky wheel and minimize their

2007
01:52:13,600 --> 01:52:17,400
Speaker 1: exposure in the media, you know, for bad for bad ink.

2008
01:52:18,360 --> 01:52:20,599
Speaker 1: You know, we have to make our voices or we're

2009
01:52:20,640 --> 01:52:26,120
Speaker 1: pretty lethargic. I guess I don't know. The wolves at

2010
01:52:26,120 --> 01:52:27,920
Speaker 1: the door we wait till us under the damn bed

2011
01:52:27,960 --> 01:52:32,759
Speaker 1: ready to eat us. As our good friend Clay Newcomb

2012
01:52:32,760 --> 01:52:35,360
Speaker 1: and new member of the Mediator team, Clay Newcomb says,

2013
01:52:35,479 --> 01:52:38,559
Speaker 1: guard the gate um and I like when you first

2014
01:52:38,560 --> 01:52:40,599
Speaker 1: said that to me, And like I said, I'll be honest,

2015
01:52:40,640 --> 01:52:43,519
Speaker 1: Like when I come at some of the traditional tropes

2016
01:52:43,600 --> 01:52:45,840
Speaker 1: within the hunting space, I always try to push back

2017
01:52:45,880 --> 01:52:47,400
Speaker 1: a little bit of my own mind, like is that

2018
01:52:47,439 --> 01:52:49,120
Speaker 1: really what I want to say or is that just

2019
01:52:49,160 --> 01:52:51,760
Speaker 1: what everybody else says? And and the more you think

2020
01:52:51,800 --> 01:52:59,680
Speaker 1: about Clay's philosophy, the more it becomes clear that at

2021
01:52:59,720 --> 01:53:01,880
Speaker 1: some level you have to kind of think of it

2022
01:53:01,920 --> 01:53:04,920
Speaker 1: that way. Um and this is something I've come to

2023
01:53:05,040 --> 01:53:08,840
Speaker 1: over time to really appreciate his words on that UM

2024
01:53:08,880 --> 01:53:12,040
Speaker 1: into understanding from your level, especially the things that you

2025
01:53:12,080 --> 01:53:15,040
Speaker 1: go through in your job and your organization that there

2026
01:53:15,200 --> 01:53:18,480
Speaker 1: is the h s U, S and and other organizations

2027
01:53:18,960 --> 01:53:22,280
Speaker 1: Center for Biological Diversity, as you mentioned, you know, they're

2028
01:53:22,320 --> 01:53:26,520
Speaker 1: not the I se you in like they're not um

2029
01:53:26,720 --> 01:53:29,559
Speaker 1: and and this is an issue that will have to

2030
01:53:29,840 --> 01:53:32,599
Speaker 1: have to face. And I think no matter what state

2031
01:53:32,640 --> 01:53:34,519
Speaker 1: you're in right now listening to this, you can go

2032
01:53:34,600 --> 01:53:38,519
Speaker 1: and find some ballot initiative or or some a legal

2033
01:53:38,520 --> 01:53:40,920
Speaker 1: precedent that's that's trying to be passed right now that's

2034
01:53:40,960 --> 01:53:43,960
Speaker 1: gonna negatively affect you in the future, negative affect other

2035
01:53:43,960 --> 01:53:47,320
Speaker 1: people around this country. So, um, whether you agree with

2036
01:53:48,040 --> 01:53:51,160
Speaker 1: the ethics of honey with dogs or or baiting for

2037
01:53:51,240 --> 01:53:54,880
Speaker 1: bears or whatever, we can have those conversations. Think hard

2038
01:53:54,880 --> 01:53:57,360
Speaker 1: about this conversation as well as you try to make

2039
01:53:57,400 --> 01:54:00,639
Speaker 1: your your value judgment wherever you're at. If you want

2040
01:54:00,640 --> 01:54:04,040
Speaker 1: to make a value judgment that is so um yeah,

2041
01:54:04,080 --> 01:54:05,720
Speaker 1: we should probably end on We should try to end

2042
01:54:05,760 --> 01:54:11,000
Speaker 1: on some kind of positive like Kumbaya moment. Ah, Well,

2043
01:54:11,040 --> 01:54:13,800
Speaker 1: I don't have one. I don't have one prepared. No,

2044
01:54:14,880 --> 01:54:17,040
Speaker 1: you got one. I don't know, dude, you're the host.

2045
01:54:17,120 --> 01:54:20,960
Speaker 1: I mean I'm supposed to have like and whatever, so

2046
01:54:21,040 --> 01:54:25,880
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to have. Hey, it's hunting season, that's it.

2047
01:54:25,560 --> 01:54:28,559
Speaker 1: It's October. So you want to do you got any

2048
01:54:28,600 --> 01:54:30,320
Speaker 1: hunts planning? You want to tell people about that way

2049
01:54:30,400 --> 01:54:33,600
Speaker 1: that that'd be nice positive. Uh yeah, yeah, about two weeks,

2050
01:54:33,600 --> 01:54:36,520
Speaker 1: I'm headed back to Idaho and do some elk hunting.

2051
01:54:36,800 --> 01:54:40,320
Speaker 1: Do that with buddies from college. You know. So I've

2052
01:54:40,320 --> 01:54:42,840
Speaker 1: known these guys twenty five years or so, and I've

2053
01:54:42,880 --> 01:54:44,360
Speaker 1: been going along with him on the hunt for I

2054
01:54:44,360 --> 01:54:49,000
Speaker 1: don't know five or so and uh yeah, So so

2055
01:54:49,040 --> 01:54:52,240
Speaker 1: that's that's the big one. Getting ready for good. Uh

2056
01:54:52,440 --> 01:54:56,200
Speaker 1: then uh, we'll have uh. I got this new pup

2057
01:54:56,280 --> 01:54:59,560
Speaker 1: here and it's his first season, so we'll be getting

2058
01:54:59,560 --> 01:55:02,880
Speaker 1: out doing as much bird hunting as possible. That's good man.

2059
01:55:02,880 --> 01:55:05,120
Speaker 1: I'm about to go to Wyoming try to get an antelope,

2060
01:55:05,560 --> 01:55:08,320
Speaker 1: and then I've got rifle season kicks in here in Montana.

2061
01:55:08,400 --> 01:55:12,120
Speaker 1: If I've still got an elk tag, a mule deer tag. Oh,

2062
01:55:12,160 --> 01:55:13,840
Speaker 1: and then I got Idaho deer tag. I wanna have

2063
01:55:13,880 --> 01:55:16,040
Speaker 1: to try to get filled at some point here. And

2064
01:55:16,280 --> 01:55:18,880
Speaker 1: I think I might go to Texas and try to

2065
01:55:18,880 --> 01:55:22,040
Speaker 1: take take in some of their beautiful wildlife resources. Uh,

2066
01:55:22,240 --> 01:55:25,920
Speaker 1: particularly the idahotel since I already got the license and

2067
01:55:25,920 --> 01:55:28,360
Speaker 1: the yel because thinking about the deer too, So do it,

2068
01:55:28,640 --> 01:55:30,480
Speaker 1: do it? I'm I'm in on the mule deer right now.

2069
01:55:30,560 --> 01:55:33,520
Speaker 1: So all right, man, well, I really appreciate it if

2070
01:55:33,520 --> 01:55:35,600
Speaker 1: you guys check out sports and Alliance on all the

2071
01:55:35,640 --> 01:55:38,360
Speaker 1: social media's, check out their website, try to understand the

2072
01:55:38,400 --> 01:55:41,720
Speaker 1: issues that they're fighting for um and the issues that

2073
01:55:41,760 --> 01:55:44,400
Speaker 1: they feel are important at anyone given time. Right now,

2074
01:55:44,520 --> 01:55:48,120
Speaker 1: it's new jerseys and bears. Holy sh it, that's a

2075
01:55:48,920 --> 01:55:52,560
Speaker 1: that's a quagmire. It is, and it's getting worse every day.

2076
01:55:52,560 --> 01:55:55,760
Speaker 1: They just start making things up and creating new lawsuits

2077
01:55:55,880 --> 01:56:01,040
Speaker 1: and so okay, alright, and we're forced to play will

2078
01:56:01,040 --> 01:56:03,480
Speaker 1: continue to play it. Thanks Brian. Well, well we'll talk

2079
01:56:03,560 --> 01:56:14,640
Speaker 1: real sooner, brother, Thank you, brother. That's it. That's all.

2080
01:56:14,680 --> 01:56:18,040
Speaker 1: Another episode of the Hunting Collective in the books. It

2081
01:56:18,160 --> 01:56:21,320
Speaker 1: was a good one as we continue to think about

2082
01:56:21,520 --> 01:56:24,920
Speaker 1: animal rights and hunting and veganism and how we eat

2083
01:56:25,120 --> 01:56:29,160
Speaker 1: and all the things in between. Again, thanks for all

2084
01:56:29,160 --> 01:56:32,480
Speaker 1: the emails, Thanks to Brian Lynn, thanks to Sportsman Alliance,

2085
01:56:32,760 --> 01:56:35,480
Speaker 1: and I want to just give quickly, give you guys

2086
01:56:35,560 --> 01:56:38,080
Speaker 1: something you can go and do in terms of this

2087
01:56:38,160 --> 01:56:42,320
Speaker 1: new Jersey bear hunt and the issues surrounding it. Yeah,

2088
01:56:42,400 --> 01:56:44,200
Speaker 1: there's a there's a lot you can do. Certainly, voting

2089
01:56:45,040 --> 01:56:46,880
Speaker 1: is something on the tip of everybody's tongue right now.

2090
01:56:46,880 --> 01:56:49,400
Speaker 1: You certainly can do that if you live in New Jersey,

2091
01:56:49,440 --> 01:56:51,320
Speaker 1: But if you don't live in New Jersey, you can

2092
01:56:51,400 --> 01:56:55,760
Speaker 1: call the offices above the New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy

2093
01:56:55,840 --> 01:56:59,120
Speaker 1: or any of the other constituents there Um, you can

2094
01:56:59,400 --> 01:57:03,640
Speaker 1: can talk to the the Commissioner Katherine McCabe and her offices.

2095
01:57:03,760 --> 01:57:06,400
Speaker 1: You can call the New Jersey Fish and Game Council,

2096
01:57:06,880 --> 01:57:09,880
Speaker 1: and you can support time tested methods wildlife management and

2097
01:57:10,160 --> 01:57:13,000
Speaker 1: reject what I believe and what many others believe as

2098
01:57:13,040 --> 01:57:16,440
Speaker 1: a misguided plan to end UH the New Jersey bear hunt.

2099
01:57:17,480 --> 01:57:19,080
Speaker 1: So you can take some action there and you can

2100
01:57:19,120 --> 01:57:23,120
Speaker 1: have some real effective change happened in the state of

2101
01:57:23,160 --> 01:57:26,400
Speaker 1: New Jersey. And again this all goes back to some

2102
01:57:26,440 --> 01:57:29,560
Speaker 1: of the ideologies we've been thinking about and discussing over

2103
01:57:29,840 --> 01:57:32,560
Speaker 1: last episode in this one, and how in the real

2104
01:57:32,600 --> 01:57:36,520
Speaker 1: world they do have an impact on hunters UH in

2105
01:57:36,680 --> 01:57:39,480
Speaker 1: your country and maybe your state if you live in

2106
01:57:39,520 --> 01:57:44,520
Speaker 1: New Jersey or even Alaska. So we'll continue to do that,

2107
01:57:45,160 --> 01:57:48,200
Speaker 1: and Phil, do we should we pursue another animal rights

2108
01:57:48,240 --> 01:57:51,280
Speaker 1: activists to have on the show or or is it

2109
01:57:51,320 --> 01:57:53,640
Speaker 1: like pooping in the woods, or is it like pooping

2110
01:57:53,640 --> 01:57:55,360
Speaker 1: in the woods and is it played out already? What?

2111
01:57:55,920 --> 01:57:57,480
Speaker 1: I And that's up to you, man. I mean, it's

2112
01:57:57,480 --> 01:57:59,520
Speaker 1: how much how much you think you can mind and

2113
01:57:59,560 --> 01:58:01,560
Speaker 1: get out of it. I mean, I think you've you've

2114
01:58:01,600 --> 01:58:04,520
Speaker 1: heard pretty much every argument in position at this point.

2115
01:58:04,560 --> 01:58:07,080
Speaker 1: But at the at the same time, it always gets

2116
01:58:07,080 --> 01:58:10,840
Speaker 1: a big reaction. People seem to enjoy it. If that's

2117
01:58:10,880 --> 01:58:13,320
Speaker 1: the right word. I don't know if that's the right

2118
01:58:15,200 --> 01:58:17,880
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's the right word. They seem

2119
01:58:17,920 --> 01:58:20,840
Speaker 1: to be interested in it at some level, having a

2120
01:58:20,880 --> 01:58:23,440
Speaker 1: reaction to it, So I don't I don't know. There

2121
01:58:23,520 --> 01:58:26,360
Speaker 1: is a gentleman named earthling Ed if anybody knows earthling Ed,

2122
01:58:26,440 --> 01:58:29,760
Speaker 1: he's a vegan activist. Um, he's done some podcasts before

2123
01:58:29,760 --> 01:58:33,120
Speaker 1: about hunting and hunters. Uh. He might be the guy

2124
01:58:33,120 --> 01:58:35,560
Speaker 1: to talked to. He might be the guy that that

2125
01:58:35,760 --> 01:58:38,120
Speaker 1: could be the next person to join this conversation and

2126
01:58:38,160 --> 01:58:40,480
Speaker 1: help us understand a few things and maybe open our

2127
01:58:40,520 --> 01:58:44,600
Speaker 1: eyes and finally convince us that were murderers. Um, but

2128
01:58:44,920 --> 01:58:48,200
Speaker 1: next week and I can I can say that we

2129
01:58:48,320 --> 01:58:52,000
Speaker 1: definitely have this audio, right Phil? Uh? Oh yeah, Well

2130
01:58:52,360 --> 01:58:55,160
Speaker 1: with our friends you honest and Sam correct? Yeah, yeah,

2131
01:58:55,200 --> 01:58:57,840
Speaker 1: so next week we're gonna kind of shift. We're gonna

2132
01:58:57,840 --> 01:59:01,200
Speaker 1: shift into something I think is important. Why would it

2133
01:59:01,200 --> 01:59:05,000
Speaker 1: be on the show if as anything less? UM it

2134
01:59:05,080 --> 01:59:09,760
Speaker 1: is about wound loss, wounding animals, particularly in this case

2135
01:59:09,960 --> 01:59:13,640
Speaker 1: with archery equipment, UM, the prevalence of it, and in

2136
01:59:14,000 --> 01:59:17,040
Speaker 1: specifically an elk country here where we live in Montana,

2137
01:59:17,080 --> 01:59:21,360
Speaker 1: but across the United States, UM in Pennsylvania for deer,

2138
01:59:21,600 --> 01:59:24,600
Speaker 1: and and and elsewhere. I think wound loss is something

2139
01:59:24,600 --> 01:59:27,120
Speaker 1: that we are all aware of, UM, that we all

2140
01:59:27,160 --> 01:59:30,360
Speaker 1: know exists. We hopefully if you hunt long enough and

2141
01:59:30,400 --> 01:59:33,880
Speaker 1: Phil you'll probably not to dissuage you from moving further

2142
01:59:33,920 --> 01:59:36,280
Speaker 1: into your hunting life. But we're you're all going to

2143
01:59:36,400 --> 01:59:39,480
Speaker 1: feel that pain of of knowing that you put an

2144
01:59:39,600 --> 01:59:41,560
Speaker 1: arrow into an animal, and and also knowing that you

2145
01:59:41,680 --> 01:59:44,840
Speaker 1: probably never find it, never get to enjoy that meat,

2146
01:59:45,320 --> 01:59:48,480
Speaker 1: never get to enjoy that that ultimate experience. And this

2147
01:59:48,640 --> 01:59:51,360
Speaker 1: this is something we wanted to talk about. Sam longdren

2148
01:59:51,960 --> 01:59:55,480
Speaker 1: Uh hit an elk this year and did not recover

2149
01:59:55,720 --> 01:59:58,560
Speaker 1: it in time to save the meat. J honest, pateel

2150
01:59:58,640 --> 02:00:01,480
Speaker 1: Us has some stories about wound two bulls in one season.

2151
02:00:01,600 --> 02:00:04,720
Speaker 1: I have plenty of stories of hunts that did not

2152
02:00:04,880 --> 02:00:08,000
Speaker 1: go my way or the animals way, and I think

2153
02:00:08,040 --> 02:00:11,120
Speaker 1: everybody else on the Metator crew I could probably jump

2154
02:00:11,120 --> 02:00:13,160
Speaker 1: in and add to this um. And so it's an

2155
02:00:13,160 --> 02:00:15,560
Speaker 1: important topic and we're gonna discussing this week with the

2156
02:00:15,640 --> 02:00:19,520
Speaker 1: Honest and with Sam and hopefully it enlightens you guys,

2157
02:00:19,800 --> 02:00:22,560
Speaker 1: makes you think, and gives you a little bit of

2158
02:00:22,560 --> 02:00:25,360
Speaker 1: something to commiserate with, because I think it happens to

2159
02:00:25,440 --> 02:00:29,480
Speaker 1: just about everybody along the hunting journey. So we'll see

2160
02:00:29,480 --> 02:00:32,839
Speaker 1: you next Tuesday on the Hunting Collectives. Say bye, Phil, goodbye,

2161
02:00:34,080 --> 02:00:37,160
Speaker 1: because I can't go a week without doing wrong.