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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. The LSU community still reeling

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Speaker 1: following the rape of a beautiful young co ed not

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Speaker 1: just a rape, but a gang rape according to local prosecutors.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about none other than LSU co ed Maddie Brooks,

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Speaker 1: Madison Brooks. In the last hours, we learn one of

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Speaker 1: the alleged rapists will be tried as an adult. It's

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Speaker 1: the seventeen year old young man, Desmond Carter. He is

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Speaker 1: charged in first and third degree rate. She then gets

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Speaker 1: out of the car and is almost immediately mowed down

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Speaker 1: in oncoming trifics. She's just let out. She's extremely inebriated,

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Speaker 1: let out on the street and almost immediately is mowed

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Speaker 1: down dead. The heartache her parents must be suffering. But

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Speaker 1: I want to go out to high profile defense lawyer

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Speaker 1: who has defended many many rapes and assorted sex crimes

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Speaker 1: as well as drug defendants. Knows her way around the courtroom,

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Speaker 1: also attended school. They're in New Orleans, very familiar with

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Speaker 1: the lay of the land and with the location where

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Speaker 1: Maddie was not only assaulted repeatedly, but where she was

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Speaker 1: mowed down dead. With me veteran trial lawyer Renee Rockwell

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Speaker 1: out of the Atlanta jurisdiction Renee the news. There's so

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Speaker 1: many headlines this morning, but one of them is that

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Speaker 1: the seventeen year old Desmond Carter will be treated as

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Speaker 1: an adult. I assume you disagree with that. Well, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: of course, now we know his name. It's been sealed

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Speaker 1: up to the point where the district attorney has decided

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Speaker 1: to treat him as an adult. So now we know

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Speaker 1: who it is, seventeen and going to be tried as

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Speaker 1: an adult. Yeah, so the question become she was an

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Speaker 1: eighteen or something and she's dead right, yes? And is

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Speaker 1: there something that could appropriately be handled in juvenile court? Correction?

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Speaker 1: I think the victim maybe nineteen, But that said, she's

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Speaker 1: a team girl. Did you say, could his case be

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Speaker 1: handled appropriately in juvenile renee? Please? You know when I

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Speaker 1: went to the DA's office, going to juve was one

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Speaker 1: as part of the rotation. My boss, mister Slayton, Lewis Layton,

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Speaker 1: one of the longest serving elected district attorneys in the country,

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Speaker 1: would have to do indictments, then we'd have to do

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Speaker 1: grand jury, then we'll go to juve and get slapped

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Speaker 1: on the wrist. Exact actually there's my argument, geev, it's

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Speaker 1: not even that's not a trial. Some judges, juvenile judges,

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Speaker 1: I want you to just sit around a table with

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Speaker 1: a psychologist and go what would be best for well,

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Speaker 1: we don't plead in juvenile court. You don't plead guilty

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Speaker 1: or not guilty. You either accept responsibility, admit, or you

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Speaker 1: don't admit. There's no such word as guilty or not guilty.

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Speaker 1: To court. The question becomes to the district attorney and

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Speaker 1: baton rouge is this appropriate for juvenile court? And they

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Speaker 1: have said it is not charging him as an adult.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question your name. I assume

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Speaker 1: you've heard of the seven deadliest, seven felony crimes for

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Speaker 1: which it's almost de facto that a juvenile will be

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Speaker 1: bound over or sent to the correct court. I eate

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Speaker 1: felony adult court. The seven deadlis, let's see if we

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Speaker 1: can remember them between the two of us. Maybe we can,

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Speaker 1: of course, murder, rape, sodomy, child molestation, arm, robbery, aggravated assault,

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Speaker 1: and arson. Oh I think I got them all? Did

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Speaker 1: I did I miss something? I think that I think

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Speaker 1: you go kidnapping with injurie. There's only seven so sodomy

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Speaker 1: must fall into sex crimes caltivated sodomy. Yep, yep, yep, yep.

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Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. So this is one of the

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Speaker 1: seven deadlies. So it's almost a given he's going to

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Speaker 1: be treated as an adult. I'm not sure what you

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Speaker 1: think the cutoff would be. Maybe under fifteen, such as

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Speaker 1: fourteen and under maybe that would be an age jog

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Speaker 1: may not bind over, but most likely yes. Now, let's

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Speaker 1: clear up one common misconception. When a juvenile is treated

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Speaker 1: as an adult, they will be tried an adult court,

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Speaker 1: but they don't go into gp general population at an

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Speaker 1: adult facility. They go into a guvenile facility, you know,

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Speaker 1: like Alto in your jurisdiction, a young man would go

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Speaker 1: to Alto. You don't really see a whole lot of

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Speaker 1: teen girls cheated as an adult because they don't typically

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Speaker 1: commit violent crimes. So what would your argument be in

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Speaker 1: front of the judge to get this case sent back

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Speaker 1: to GV court. Well, you look at a judge, try

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Speaker 1: to look at a judge with a straight face, and

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Speaker 1: this she's telling the truth. That is exactly what they do.

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Speaker 1: They look at the judge and try to keep a

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Speaker 1: straight face. Would you try to start cracking that would

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Speaker 1: you start crying and have the mom on the front

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Speaker 1: row crying really loudly about her son that would never

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Speaker 1: do anything like this. Yes, and it's his first offense.

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Speaker 1: And judge, he wasn't part of the He wasn't part

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Speaker 1: of the that's what he said. I would expect you

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Speaker 1: to argue that because the juvenal records are kept secret,

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Speaker 1: so the prosecutor really wouldn't know less they jumped through

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Speaker 1: a bunch of hoops whether or not this was his

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Speaker 1: first offense or not. Okay, so tell me again what

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Speaker 1: would you argue? And then and then just to mention though,

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Speaker 1: back to what happens. As long as he's a juvenile,

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Speaker 1: he is in the in the YDC, the Youth Detention center.

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Speaker 1: But then once he becomes an adult, he moves right

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Speaker 1: over with the big boys, you know. But again, if

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Speaker 1: he's convicted, he's not going to go to adult jail.

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Speaker 1: Well no, no, no. If he is a juvenile being

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Speaker 1: treated as an adult, he stays in juvenile detention until

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Speaker 1: he becomes an adult, at which point he's moved over

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Speaker 1: the to the adults. So he'll stay in till he's

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Speaker 1: either eighteen or twenty one, depending on the jurisdiction. Then

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Speaker 1: he'll go with the adults that frankly on a rape conviction,

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Speaker 1: he'll be out in like seven years. However, this is

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Speaker 1: exacerbated because she was mowed down in traffic and killed.

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Speaker 1: Nie Time stories with Nancy Grace. Hey, I've got another

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Speaker 1: headline to throw out you with me is Renee Rockwell,

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Speaker 1: high profile a lawyer and veteran defense attorney out of

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Speaker 1: the Atlanta jurisdiction. But you really practice in multiple jurisdictions?

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Speaker 1: Aren't you licensed to practice? Will say? I know back

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Speaker 1: home in Louisiana, where I guess you're an expert in

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Speaker 1: Napoleonic code. Okay, are you licensed in Florida as well? No, Texas, Georgia.

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Speaker 1: I knew there was another one in there. And you

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Speaker 1: know what else they'll have Nancy, And you can tell

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Speaker 1: your client a thousand times. There will be jail call.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And the only thing worse than talking about

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Speaker 1: a case on the jail phone is talking in code

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Speaker 1: about the case on the jail phone. Explain So instead

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Speaker 1: of saying, okay, mama, this is exactly what happened, they

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Speaker 1: sit there and they'll talk about the case and they'll

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Speaker 1: talk in some broken up code language and the danger

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Speaker 1: of that, Nancy is an investigator gets on the stand

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Speaker 1: with the district Attorney's office or the police department and says,

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Speaker 1: this is what he was really saying, ladies and gentlemen

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Speaker 1: of the jury. He was really saying blank, and he

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Speaker 1: had the cunning to try and hide it. Give me

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Speaker 1: an example, if you don't mind, So let's talk about

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Speaker 1: a drug case. Well, mom, he caught me up and

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Speaker 1: he said he really just wanted, you know, a case

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Speaker 1: of tomatoes, and I talked to him about going over

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Speaker 1: there and we were going to mow the grass and

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Speaker 1: just the code talk that sounds like I'm got going

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Speaker 1: for you. And I can't take credit for this. I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry to say. This is from Sally Thompson on Twitter.

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Speaker 1: This is about the Murdai case. Listen. Alex, Murdog, Magis

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Speaker 1: and Paw Paul had been talking to Row Row, Steaky Leg,

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Speaker 1: Little Jimmy and fat Head, who had heard about peel

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Speaker 1: pills from Handsome and Debbel Dabble, who told Bus Buss

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Speaker 1: and m who threatened to call the popo on the

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Speaker 1: talkie talkie. Wait a minute, one more time, Okay, who

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Speaker 1: is Sally Thompson, whoever she is? I love you woman, Okay.

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Speaker 1: Alex murdeite Case, Mags and Pawpaul had been talking to

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Speaker 1: Row Row, Steaky Leg, Little Jimmy and Fathead who heard

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Speaker 1: about peel pills from Handsome and Dibbel Dabble who told

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Speaker 1: Bus Buss and m who threatened to call the popo

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Speaker 1: on the talkie talkie. There you go. I'd have to chart,

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Speaker 1: you know how the English teachers. I would sit there

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Speaker 1: in English going what we're the diagrammed a sentence. That's

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Speaker 1: what I have to do with some of this. But yes,

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Speaker 1: we got some tomatoes and we took him over to

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Speaker 1: Dodo and then we mowed the green grass pot blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah. Yes, yes, I love it when they're talking

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Speaker 1: code because it shows not only did they do it,

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Speaker 1: but they are cunning and artfully enough to try to

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Speaker 1: hide it on a jail call, and that they know

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Speaker 1: that jail calls are recorded. You only learned that from experience. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So the next thing is what happens Nancy? What? So

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Speaker 1: each prisoner has their own pen number, and they think

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Speaker 1: you in some form of fashion that let's say you

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Speaker 1: and I are in prison. Are in jail, okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: jail with my best with my other best friends. And

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Speaker 1: I used her pin number and she uses my pin number.

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Speaker 1: That's snaky. How long is it going to take? How

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Speaker 1: long is it going to take for the police to

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Speaker 1: figure that out? Okay? Oh wait, I've actually seen a

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Speaker 1: case like that. I didn't know it was so common.

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Speaker 1: You know who I love? And the blabbing behind bars

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Speaker 1: taught mo'n Casey Anthony you know in Florida, the video

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Speaker 1: tape everything, and they had her just cursing out her

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Speaker 1: parents and nutting up totally. When they would say, so

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Speaker 1: where's Kelly, she go cray on them. Then another one

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Speaker 1: I really liked was do you remember Helly Cummings? You

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Speaker 1: and I talked about that so many times when Helly

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Speaker 1: went missing out of her Florida home. On the jail

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Speaker 1: phone calls, the ones that were videoed, somebody was there

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Speaker 1: talking to them. She said, well that Mincy Greece shut

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Speaker 1: Did you hear her talking about her child? Chick fil

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Speaker 1: A nuggets on the floor. She was so hungry that

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Speaker 1: she ate went off the floor. She's nasty and then

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Speaker 1: she goes off minsty crossing. Yes, they'll say anything, and

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Speaker 1: they're not thinking that it's all being recorded. You led

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Speaker 1: me down the garden path. The defense attorneys claim that

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Speaker 1: Maddie Masson Brooks can send it to sex. She gets

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Speaker 1: out of the car and is mowed down by another

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Speaker 1: vehicle that kills her. Prosecutors say all four of the

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Speaker 1: suspects had been at the bar where Madison was also

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Speaker 1: drinking in Baton Rouge that night. What is the Tiger Miner?

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Speaker 1: It's not my nineteen is a minor there? Correct, she

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Speaker 1: was a miner. What's tiger Land? Tiger Land is off

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Speaker 1: campus down the road a bit, not very far, but

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Speaker 1: a number of students live in apartments and the apartments

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Speaker 1: have bars that are throughout walking distance. Don't have to drive.

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Speaker 1: And in this case, Nancy, it was as everybody just

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Speaker 1: scribes it an animal house wall, the wall people elbow

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Speaker 1: of stander room only you just rubbinate each other's elbows.

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Speaker 1: But the problem with all of this is their video.

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Speaker 1: You know what's interesting. It just reminded me of something

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Speaker 1: and I think it was I don't think it was

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Speaker 1: one of your cases, but I remember going to so

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Speaker 1: many strip clubs trying to find witnesses when you go

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Speaker 1: to an establishment like the bar we're talking about. It's

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Speaker 1: not a strip club, but maybe me remember going to

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Speaker 1: places like bars, like strip clubs, and other lawyers would say,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna bring a witness from a strip club or

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Speaker 1: a bar that was drunk that night. And you know, Renee,

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Speaker 1: as I would hell the jury up front, Sometimes you

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Speaker 1: got to go to hell to get the witness to

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Speaker 1: put the devil in jail. So, of course everybody at

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Speaker 1: this bar was drinking, and Mattie is no exception. But

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Speaker 1: you know what, Renee, don't you get sick? And I

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Speaker 1: know you in a lot of cases, a lot of

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Speaker 1: jury trials, but don't you get sick of rape victims

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Speaker 1: somehow turning into the bad person. They're the bad guy

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Speaker 1: because they were drinking or drunk. I mean, it happens

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Speaker 1: over and over just Nancy. Is called victim blaming, and

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Speaker 1: it does happen all the time in sex offenses like this.

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Speaker 1: It's called victim blaming. And you know, Mattie's family now

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Speaker 1: has an attorney. Yes, good. I wanted them to have

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Speaker 1: a lawyer, and it says lawyer, the victim's family has

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Speaker 1: to have I have a darn attorney. But that's just

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Speaker 1: the way of the world. Now there you go. And

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Speaker 1: the question becomes will there be a lawsuit? I know

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Speaker 1: the attorney has gone on the record and said we're

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Speaker 1: not worried about it. Now, well he better get they'll

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Speaker 1: get worried before that statute of limitations passes. Explain, I

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Speaker 1: hope they do well. In a case like in in Louisiana,

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Speaker 1: it's called dramshop. And the question becomes dramshop. Okay, question

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Speaker 1: becomes ramshop. Okay. I thought you were a question coming

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Speaker 1: a little Cajun dialect to me, but you're saying dramshop. Okay.

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Speaker 1: The question becomes is the bar libel because of the

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Speaker 1: excessive amount of alcohol? Is the bar libel for the injury?

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Speaker 1: Because you know bars mark money when they're serving this

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Speaker 1: there's alcohol. And should there have been some safeguards to

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Speaker 1: keep children minors out of the bar. That's going to

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Speaker 1: be the question. You know, I can understand you a

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Speaker 1: lot better now than I could the first time you

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Speaker 1: pranced into the courtroom in a pair of purple cowboy boots.

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Speaker 1: I knew right then. Okay, I want to know her.

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Speaker 1: I don't know who she is or what she is,

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Speaker 1: but I want to find out because then your Louisiana

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Speaker 1: accent was so heavy. And yes that has been said

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Speaker 1: of me in a different way, but I can understand

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Speaker 1: you a lot better. But when you said dramshop, you

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Speaker 1: really threw me. You know what's interesting, Renee, how I

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Speaker 1: started saying, you know, how many times have I said

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Speaker 1: to a jury, what do you want a video? In

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Speaker 1: this case, they have a video. The state is saying

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Speaker 1: it proves non consent because she was so drunk she

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Speaker 1: couldn't give consent, and that is borne out by the

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Speaker 1: BAC blood alcohol content. You don't have to fight and

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Speaker 1: get a black eye and have your clothes torn off

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Speaker 1: for there too not be consent. Do you remember there

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Speaker 1: was a time, Renee, when there had to be the

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Speaker 1: jury expected there to be some showing a fighting back,

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Speaker 1: like a bruise, like torn clothing, a black eye. That's

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Speaker 1: not required anymore, Not in a case, Nancy, where because

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Speaker 1: of the alcohol content in the blood there's no ability

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Speaker 1: to give consent. That's going to be the question in

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Speaker 1: this case. Just like a minor in many jurisdictions under sixteen,

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Speaker 1: that number, that age number is different in different jurisdictions,

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Speaker 1: a minor cannot give consent to a sex act, just

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Speaker 1: like a miner. That would be like John David and

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Speaker 1: Lucy going in trying to buy a house, or a

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Speaker 1: contract for a car, or buying cigarettes or booze oh

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Speaker 1: in oh. A miner is deemed under the law not

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Speaker 1: to have the mental or emotional capacity to enter into

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Speaker 1: any such agreement, including enter into willing X. So like

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Speaker 1: a minor. If you're totally drunk, Jackie, what was her

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Speaker 1: be ac? I think it was point three something? Point

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Speaker 1: three one nine is what I heard. I think you're right.

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Speaker 1: Point three one nine. I know it's point three something.

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Speaker 1: Isn't the legal limit in Louisiana point zero eight. That's

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Speaker 1: what my understanding here is. Nancy, I am a Louisiana lawyer,

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Speaker 1: don't practice beer now, So that is almost worth four

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Speaker 1: times the amount? Yes, yes, well actually point three one

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Speaker 1: nine would round up to thirty two, So yes, it

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Speaker 1: is four times the amount. That means she cannot give

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Speaker 1: consent regardless of her age. I don't know what the

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Speaker 1: age of consent is there, but it's irrelevant because of

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Speaker 1: her high BAC blood alcohol content and Nancy in Louisia.

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Speaker 1: Now there does it used to be ten to two

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Speaker 1: you needed only ten to convict. Now it's it's you

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Speaker 1: need a unanimous jury. The question becomes, can a defense

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Speaker 1: attorney look at a jury and convince one person that

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Speaker 1: these alleged suspects thought that she was willing to engage

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Speaker 1: in this sector? Another thing has happened. Renee LSU student

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Speaker 1: Mattie Brooks and her alleged rapists were seen arguing as

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Speaker 1: she steps out of the car, just moments before a

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Speaker 1: ride chair driver mowed her down. The footage was again

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Speaker 1: taken by one of the four and was released by

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Speaker 1: their defense attorneys last week. And she is clear she's slurring,

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Speaker 1: she's clearly drunk. She says something like I'm sorry I

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Speaker 1: offended you that bad, and one of the guys said

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Speaker 1: take her home, and she is apparently upset by what

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Speaker 1: happened in the vehicle and says, I'll get an uber,

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Speaker 1: I will uber on my own. Her speech is so slurred, Renee,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how they think that's going to help

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Speaker 1: the defense. Well, obviously, and here's what happens. Nancy, You've

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Speaker 1: got four codefendence. You could have ten codefendens. One person

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Speaker 1: introduces the video and it's going to be used against everybody.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, do you think they'll be tried together? I do.

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Speaker 1: I do think they'll be tried together. I do not

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Speaker 1: believe there will be a severance, although all four are

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Speaker 1: gonna want a severance in other words, in other words,

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Speaker 1: each one is going to want their own separate, individual trial.

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Speaker 1: That is not gonna happen. Well, it depends on the

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Speaker 1: statements that may have been made. Just to wrap it up,

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Speaker 1: it's a bit early now because we don't know what

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Speaker 1: each individual's exact statement was. If it's my client, you're

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Speaker 1: not saying anything. You know, what Renee just said is

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Speaker 1: absolutely correct. You know. Do you remember when I had

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Speaker 1: to try Henry Hamilton Mayhew wrought in hell? Just say,

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Speaker 1: you know, parole turning down. A couple of months ago,

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Speaker 1: Henry Hamilton was a co defendant with another guy whose

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Speaker 1: name is going to come back to me, and two

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Speaker 1: of them had just gotten out of jail and they

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Speaker 1: sneak up on this couple not far from where you live, Renee,

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Speaker 1: really nice area. Sneak up on them and they had

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Speaker 1: just gotten engaged and they were toasting out on the patio.

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Speaker 1: They had champagne. They were toasting the engagement, and these

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Speaker 1: two sneak up. They kill the man, who happened to

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Speaker 1: be a brother of an APD, I might add, and

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Speaker 1: they start chasing the woman. Anyway, all that happened when

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Speaker 1: I was in law school. I didn't know anything about it.

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Speaker 1: I come to the d's office, start trying murders, and

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Speaker 1: the case gets reversed all the way up I guess

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Speaker 1: at the eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals and had to

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Speaker 1: be retried. Remember I went to the evidence room and

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Speaker 1: I found one X ray which I couldn't even tell

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Speaker 1: what it was, and a hat that said, kiss my bass.

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Speaker 1: That's all the evidence that the evidence room. The property

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Speaker 1: room had moved a couple of times since the case

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Speaker 1: was tried, and all the evidence had been displaced. Do

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Speaker 1: you remember that case. I remember the case, Nancy. And

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Speaker 1: not only does evidence get misplaced, but people get law

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Speaker 1: And now I had to and I'm working up two

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Speaker 1: point and go with me on this that the reason

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Speaker 1: that case was reversed was because of interlocking statements. In

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Speaker 1: other words, Renee and a robb a back with her Jackie,

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Speaker 1: and we all give a statement, Jackie blames me, I

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Speaker 1: blame Renee. Renee blames Jackie, and we're all tried together,

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Speaker 1: and then the statements come in. Now here's the kick.

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Speaker 1: Under the fifth of moment, you don't have to take

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Speaker 1: the stand. But if a statement comes in against you,

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Speaker 1: then and that defendant doesn't take the stand, you don't

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Speaker 1: have a right to cross examine them. And they have

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Speaker 1: said in their statement it was you, and then jack

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Speaker 1: you doesn't take the stand, so I can't cross examine

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Speaker 1: or whence you blamed me? In that case, Renee, all

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Speaker 1: those statements came in, they were tried together with interlocking

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Speaker 1: statements blaming each other, so the case got reversed. I

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Speaker 1: had to retry Henry Hamilton, and our friend Al Dixon

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Speaker 1: retried the other guy. So, Renee, that's why, as you

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Speaker 1: accurately pointed out, these guys may get separate trials. I

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Speaker 1: want to bet the DA will be stinged about that,

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Speaker 1: having to do the same thing four times over, having

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Speaker 1: to go through all of that over and over and over.

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Speaker 1: There's one way around it, Renee. They could redact the statements,

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Speaker 1: or they could give somebody a deal, or give a

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Speaker 1: few of them a deal. If there's a deal intertified.

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Speaker 1: If there's a deal, we'll probably be the one that

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Speaker 1: did not actually rape her, The one that didn't commit

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Speaker 1: the rape I would guess would get a deal. Okay, Renee,

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Speaker 1: We'll wait as justice unfolds in this case, God willing,

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Speaker 1: it will be fair and swift. Goodbye friend,