1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: So, Jason, I wanted to ask you about relationships in prison, 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: like intimate relationships. I'm always so surprised when people are 3 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: able to have an intimate romantic relationship and keep it 4 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: for decades. Is that something that surprised you. 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd be surprised if I wasn't surprised. You know, 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 2: it's it's a remarkable testament, I think, to the people 7 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 2: on both ends of that equation, right, you know, and 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 2: of course you know, anyone who's ever been in a 9 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 2: long distance relationship probably knows how that can be tricky. Right, 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 2: But you're always and now. 11 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: You have people in your business all the time. 12 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 2: It's the opposite of spontaneous and romantic, right, and yet 13 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 2: true love finds away. 14 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 3: When I saw it with that resentencing, he would only 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 3: have fourteen years left, Maggie, I saw it to myself, well, 16 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 3: I can wait fourteen years for him. That's what my 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 3: gut on my heart was telling me. 18 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: From Lava for Good. I'm Maggie Freeling, and this is 19 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: wrongful conviction with Maggie Freeling today, Melvin Ortiz. On the 20 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: evening of December twenty third, nineteen ninety seven, two masked 21 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: gunmen walked into Effie's Pizza Village in Reading, Pennsylvania to 22 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: try and rob it, but things went awry and the 23 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,839 Speaker 1: restaurant's beloved owner, George Klausser, wound up dead. 24 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 4: The family says that the response of the neighbors has 25 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,479 Speaker 4: been overwhelming, proving how much the young shop owner meant 26 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 4: to the community that meant so much to him, and 27 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,919 Speaker 4: the family says that the pain is made even harder 28 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 4: to bear because the men who killed twenty nine year 29 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 4: old George Klausser are still out there. 30 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: About a month later, the police placed a ten ten 31 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: thousand dollars reward in the local paper to find those gunmen. 32 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: A man came forward saying that seventeen year old Melvin 33 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: Ortiz told him that he killed George Klausser. The man's 34 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:22,399 Speaker 1: girlfriend said she witnessed this confession. Melvin was swiftly arrested. 35 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: He was charged with second degree murder, robbery, aggravated assault, 36 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: reckless endangerment, possession of an instrument of a crime, and 37 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: attempted theft by unlawful taking. 38 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 4: Neighbors on Ortiz's block were just as shocked. 39 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,679 Speaker 5: He's a very nice person and we didn't think he 40 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 5: would do something like that. 41 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: On June fifteenth, nineteen ninety nine, after a highly publicized trial, 42 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: a jury convicted Melvin Ortiz of second degree murder and 43 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: sentenced him to life without parole. However, Melvin had a 44 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: solid alibi nineteen. Witnesses said he was at a birthday 45 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: party and the man who claimed Melvin confessed to him 46 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: had a much more sordid history than the prosecution and 47 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: police presented. 48 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 5: Like all this just came out years later after. 49 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 6: I'm in calceration, like he was getting away with it 50 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 6: because you know, he's working with the police stuff like that. 51 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 6: They've made a lot of effort and put a lot 52 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 6: of energy and effort into covering. 53 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 5: Up for him. My name is Melvin Ortiz. 54 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 7: I've been carcerated for twenty four years for crime I 55 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 7: did not commit. 56 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 5: I am innocent. 57 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: Melvin Ortiz was born on January fifth, nineteen eighty to 58 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: Maria and Juan Ortiz. 59 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 5: You know, I was born in Puerto Rico and No Macoal, 60 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 5: Puerto Rico. 61 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: He's the youngest of three brothers who loved to rough 62 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: house and wrestle. When he was a kid, Melvin dreamed 63 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: of being a boxer. Melvin's parents brought their kids to 64 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: church every Sunday and taught their sons right from wrong 65 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: at family dinners. Mom's cooking was a favorite. When Melvin 66 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: was five, the family moved from Puerto Rico to New 67 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 1: York in search of a better life. 68 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 6: Well, having language burials has been hard on them. To 69 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 6: get a good job and stuff like that. 70 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 7: So you know, they did pretty much what they could, 71 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 7: you know, to raise us, raise us right, and you know, 72 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 7: to me and my did a fantastic job doing that. 73 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: Their first home was in the Bronx, New York. Melvin 74 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: remembers this as an exciting time and. 75 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 6: Singing snow for the first time, so it was fun. 76 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 6: And then you know that whole experience, which is you know, 77 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 6: as a child was great. 78 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: So how old were you when you moved to Reading, Pennsylvania. 79 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 5: I was about I was very young. 80 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 6: Was probably about the third grade, you know, I think 81 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 6: we said like nine years old something like that. 82 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: Melvin's parents said they moved to Reading because Redding had 83 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: a large welfare program that assisted poor families like theirs. 84 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: Reading Pennsylvania was quite different from the Bronx. They moved 85 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 1: from a borough with one point two million people to 86 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 1: a city with around seventy five thousand. If you look 87 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: at Reading on a map, it's between two bigger cities, 88 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania state capital, Harrisburg and Philadelphia, and there's a lot 89 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: of farmland in between. Reading was once a major transportation 90 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: hub on the Reading Railroad. Yes, that Reading Railroad from monopoly, 91 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: but after the decline of heavy industry and the railroads 92 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: which helped Reading prosper, the city was on a decline. 93 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: The population, which reached nearly one hundred and twenty three 94 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: i was in at its peak in the nineteen thirties, 95 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: had dropped in half by the eighties, and its economy crumbled. 96 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 1: By twenty eleven, Reading, Pennsylvania was dubbed the poorest city 97 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: in America, with forty one percent of the city living 98 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: in poverty. Around the time Melvin's family moved to Reading 99 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: in the early nineties, other Latino families were also moving in. Today, 100 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: sixty one percent of the population identifies as Hispanic or Latino, 101 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: but back in the eighties and nineties, Latinos were still 102 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: a minority in Reading, and Melvin says that was scary. 103 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 6: There was a park I forgot what the name was, 104 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 6: but we often used to go there to jump in 105 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 6: the river and swim and stuff like that. So there 106 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 6: was like a water plant right next to it. So 107 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 6: a few times we went behind. 108 00:06:55,320 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 8: The water plant and we discovered that there was marking 109 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 8: of the circle with the cross like the KKK things 110 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 8: that used to go on and up the street where 111 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 8: we used to live, like two blocks up. 112 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 5: There was like a Chapter day. 113 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 6: So yeah, like you see the Confederate flag and stuff 114 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 6: like that, So definitely that. 115 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 5: Was there at that time. You know, I personally experienced 116 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 5: been called a three times in. 117 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 6: My life down there were all living down there, so 118 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 6: seeing those type of things that just make you see 119 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 6: things a little bit different than than other people, especially 120 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 6: with the police and stuff like that. 121 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: Melvin wasn't a stranger to the police. In nineteen ninety four, 122 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: when Melvin was fourteen, he was arrested for receiving stolen property, 123 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: although his parents tried to raise their boys right. Local 124 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: residents described Writing as a city that sucks you in 125 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: into its system and into its crime. Other robberies had 126 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: plagued the city in the weeks before the homicide at 127 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: Evie's Pizza. In fact, Evie's Pizza was also robbed just 128 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,559 Speaker 1: twelve days before the night of the homicide. 129 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 5: I really didn't feel comfortable in reading out. It feel 130 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 5: like there was pretty much a future day. 131 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: But Melvin's dad did believe in a future for his son. 132 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: He found a job Core program that would help Melvin 133 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: train for a trade like mechanics or electronics. 134 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 6: When I got there, what caught my interest was like 135 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 6: plumbing because it dealt a little bit with everything. So 136 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 6: you know, I've seen the things that they build, and 137 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 6: it was it was it just seemed real cool. 138 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: The school was about two hours away in Red Rock, Pennsylvania, 139 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: and Melvin didn't have his own car, so he and 140 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: his brother would take the bus and stay at a 141 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: dorm during the week. 142 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 5: And you know, I just felt good about it, you 143 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 5: know what I mean. 144 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 6: I felt like I see myself, you know, doing good, 145 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 6: doing good in life, and just you know, I felt 146 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 6: like I was on my ticket out at a reading 147 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 6: and to be away from. 148 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 5: All the stuff that was just going on there. 149 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: Melvin loved the job Corpse school. He loved meeting new people, 150 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: and he made good friends in the dorm across the hall. 151 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: He envisioned himself graduating from the program surrounded by the 152 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: same love camaraderie and encouragement that he witnessed at one 153 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: of the graduations, but mostly he saw himself making his 154 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: parents proud. In the winter of nineteen ninety seven, Melvin 155 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: came home to spend Christmas with his family. He was 156 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: feeling great about life. Things were going smoothly, but on 157 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: December twenty third, Melvin's life would change forever. 158 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 6: That morning, I went downtown with my sister in law 159 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 6: and hey, that's when I meant That's when I bumped 160 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 6: into Isaac. 161 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: Isaac Figueroa was a close friend of Melvin and his brothers. 162 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 6: So Isi told me he was like, said Watson's birthday 163 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 6: party tonight, and he gave me invitation. I said, sure, 164 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 6: you know you're gonna have to pick me up, So 165 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 6: he picked me up between six and six thirty. 166 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: At the birthday party, there was no drinking or smoking 167 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: aloud inside, so Melvin and his brother spent most of 168 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: the night outside the door to the apartment, letting people 169 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 1: in and out and talking with people through the window lasterday. 170 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 5: Throughout the whole night, TI like. 171 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: N That's when Isaac took Melvin home. Melvin had just 172 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: spilled a drink on his pants and wanted to hurry 173 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: up and change so he could get back to the party. 174 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: He had been crushing on a girl there named Tracy, 175 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: and he wanted to flirt with her, so he raced home. 176 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 1: Quickly pulled off his khaki pants, threw on a pair 177 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: of black ones, and headed back with Isaac. Around eleven PM, 178 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: Melvin's longtime friend Cynthia Jacques called him a murder had 179 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: happened at Effie's, just a block away from her house. 180 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: She was terrified and asked Melvin to come over and 181 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: keep her company. At around seven thirty pm that same night, 182 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: two masked gunmen walked into Effie's and tried to rob it. 183 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: They shot the owner, George Klausser, in the side while 184 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,839 Speaker 1: he was cleaning the grill. The gunman then struggled to 185 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: open the register, but they ultimately gave up after a 186 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: few minutes and fled empty handed. George was airlifted to 187 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 1: a nearby hospital, but by the time he arrived it 188 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: was too late. The twenty nine year old, who had 189 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: named his restaurant after his wife and lived above it 190 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: with his family, was dead. Witnesses described the gunman as 191 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,199 Speaker 1: eighteen to twenty four years old. One was five foot 192 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: eight one hundred and eighty pounds, the other five foot 193 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: six with a thin build. The original police report from 194 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: a witness described the gunman as two Hispanic males with 195 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: Spanish accents, both masked, one wearing white pants and a 196 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: blue hoodie and one wearing black pants and a purple hoodie. 197 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: Melvin is a five foot seven Hispanic mail that evening 198 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: at the time of the shooting, he was wearing a 199 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: black hoodie and khaki pants. Police wanted swift justice for 200 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: the klausers, but after a few weeks they had nothing. 201 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: That's when police offered a ten thousand dollars reward, and 202 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 1: right away a man came forward saying he knew one 203 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: of the gunmen, the man who pulled the trigger, and 204 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: his name was Melvin Ortiz. This episode is underwritten by AIG, 205 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: a leading global insurance company. AIG is committed to corporate 206 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: social responsibility and to making a positive difference in the 207 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: lives of its employees and in the communities where we 208 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: work and live. In light of the impelling need for 209 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: pro bono legal assistance, and in recognition of AIG's commitment 210 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: to criminal and social justice reform, the aig pro bono 211 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: program provides free legal services and other support to underrepresented 212 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: communities and individuals. The man who came forward to the 213 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: police and named Melvin Ortiz as the murderer was nineteen 214 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: year old John kelty Jeron. He told them that Melvin 215 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: had approached him to ask for help robbing a business 216 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: in the area to make some quick money. Kelty Jeroon 217 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: said that around midnight on the night of the crime, 218 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: Melvin called him and said, quote, things got messed up 219 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: and the gun just went off. 220 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 6: So when I learned about this warrant that they had 221 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 6: for me, I was pretty much a shock. 222 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,079 Speaker 7: You know, when they told me, especially when they told 223 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 7: me what it was for, and I was like, I 224 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 7: was taking back. 225 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 1: I'm like, what the police send it onto the Orteze 226 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: house looking for Melvin. 227 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 5: I called home and I was like, yo, like what's 228 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 5: going on. 229 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 6: I was spoke to my father and he's like, YO, listen, 230 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 6: you got to come over here. 231 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 5: These people are here for you. 232 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 6: And I said, well, I'm not you know, I'm not 233 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 6: going over there. I didn't physically tell him that, but 234 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 6: I just told myself that, like, nah, I'm not going 235 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 6: to go over there. 236 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 5: It's just the whole situation just felt wrong. 237 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: But Melvin's mom was adamant that it would be easier 238 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: if he just turned himself in. 239 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 6: She said, listen, only the guilty runs, you know what 240 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 6: I mean. And I'm like, well, I gave it, and 241 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 6: I said, okay, we will go down there and fix 242 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 6: the situation. 243 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 5: And and when. 244 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 6: I found out the day that the crime happened, that's 245 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 6: when Isaiah's party. 246 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: He knew he didn't commit the crime, but his mom's 247 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: advice was also risky. So he was relieved he had 248 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: a solid alibi the party, and he decided to go 249 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: down to the station with his parents, his pastor, Isaac, 250 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: and Isaac's wife Shannon. 251 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 6: Shannon made a listen of the alibis that was there 252 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 6: at the party, and we all went down there, and. 253 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: They confidently brought the list down to the station. 254 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 5: You know. 255 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 6: But what I didn't think about was that what these 256 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 6: people were going to do, It didn't matter what I 257 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 6: had to say, what type of evidence the alibis that 258 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 6: I that I had to present, and it just it 259 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 6: just it just didn't matter what they one. 260 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 5: It was to get in an arrest. 261 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: Melvin never left the police station that day in fact, 262 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: it was the last time he was ever free. 263 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 3: I knew him before he went to prison, but we 264 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 3: really didn't get close until after he was indicted and 265 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 3: had turned himself in. 266 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: Victoria Blanco first met Melvin when they were both teenagers. 267 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: She was in her last year of high school, and initially, 268 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: she says, it was more of a friendship. Victoria says 269 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: she started writing Melvin in jail because she thought he 270 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: was cute. 271 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 9: And at the same time, you know, I was still 272 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 9: doing my thing as a teenager, you know, as far 273 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 9: as love life is concerned. I would still go and date, 274 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 9: still had other boyfriends, and I actually would go and 275 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 9: tell him about dates and boyfriends and things that became 276 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 9: serious as as I got older. 277 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: Victoria and Melvin shared everything over the year he was 278 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 1: in jail awaiting trial, and. 279 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 3: Then he would also still be writing like one or 280 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 3: two girls from inside, and we would see, we would 281 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 3: totally devote, you know, secrets that the other people when 282 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 3: were you know, speaking to or talking to, didn't realize 283 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 3: that we were sharing, you know, sharing our lives together. 284 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 1: But Melvin didn't tell Victoria he was in jail awaiting 285 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 1: trial for murder. She thought this cute guy she was 286 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: building a relationship with was in for something minor. It 287 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: was only after a few letters that she found out 288 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: the truth. 289 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 3: I guess, as you can imagine. You know, I was 290 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 3: still living at home with my parents, and they were 291 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 3: infuriated by the fact that I was talking to Melvin 292 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,400 Speaker 3: because the newspapers portrayed him as this like whole blooded 293 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 3: team killer and this horrible person, and my mom's telling me, 294 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 3: here to be, you're going to become a murderer too. 295 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: But Victoria believed in his innocence, and she wasn't alone 296 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: because many people at the time did. Remember Melvin had 297 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: nineteen alibi witnesses. So you start writing him while he's 298 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: in jail before trial, and then he gets convicted. I mean, 299 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 1: what was going through your head then? 300 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 3: So I was in shock, and that was for me 301 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 3: at the time was obviously extremely difficult. It was literally 302 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 3: like time stood still, and I wish no teenager or 303 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 3: anyone would ever have to go through that. 304 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:21,439 Speaker 1: The trial was chaos. There was so much publicity around 305 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: the case that Melvin's court appointed lawyers all recused themselves 306 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 1: due to their own various conflicts of interest, five of them, 307 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: one after the other In a small town like reading, 308 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: this happens often because the roster of public defenders isn't limited. 309 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: If any of them have had anything to do with 310 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: any person involved in the case, they must recuse themselves. 311 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: And in one instance, the attorney just didn't want to 312 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: represent Melvin. Melvin had been demonized in the local papers. Eventually, 313 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: Attorney Bill Bespells took over. Although Bespells didn't have a 314 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: conflict of interest, keme onto Melvin case late right before trial, 315 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: and he only had a couple of weeks to prepare 316 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: his first order of business. In an attempt to counter 317 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: inevitable biased or in trial, Bispells requested a change of 318 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 1: venue and a change of jury, but both requests were denied. 319 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: On May twenty fourth, nineteen ninety nine, the trial officially started. 320 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: The prosecutor Mark C. Baldwin went first. He called witnesses 321 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: who were at Effie's the night of the murder. Rodney 322 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: Delp testified that he knew Melvin, saw the robbers and 323 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: that Melvin was not one of the robbers. Rodney was 324 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: the one who described the gunman's clothing in the police report. 325 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: Remember one was in white pants and a blue hoodie. 326 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: And the other in black pants and a purple hoodie. 327 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: That night, again, Melvin wore a black hoodie and khaki 328 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: pants that was not what the shooters were described to 329 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: be wearing, and later remember he changed into black pants 330 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: after the time of the murder. The prosecut Cushin, suggested 331 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,959 Speaker 1: this was Melvin's attempt to avoid recognition. This was a 332 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: blow to the prosecution, one of their own witnesses saying 333 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: it wasn't Melvin and there was no DNA or any 334 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,719 Speaker 1: kind of evidence linking Melvin to the crime, But the 335 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 1: prosecutions still had their star witness, John Celtideron under oath 336 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: during trial. John said he was quote good friends with 337 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: Melvin and that in December nineteen ninety seven, Melvin suggested 338 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: to him that the two of them make quick money 339 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: by robbing a local business in the area, like FIE's Pizza. 340 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: So let's pause for a moment now. You might be 341 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: wondering why John Keltigeroon's account of Melvin's quote confession held 342 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: so much weight against nineteen alibi witnesses. 343 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 5: Well. 344 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: To start, all, nineteen alibi witnesses were not called to 345 00:20:55,640 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: testify during the trial. Melvin's attorney Bespels only called four 346 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: of them, and two of those four were friends of Melvin's, 347 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: a jury might see them as willing to say anything 348 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: to protect their friend. Second, John is the son of 349 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: Thomas Keltagerone, a Democrat in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives. 350 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: And on top of that, John's girlfriend, Tina Valentin, told 351 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: police she also overheard the conversation with Melvin. They both 352 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 1: testified that Melvin confessed to the murder. John and Tina 353 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: were not the only witnesses to testify for the prosecution, 354 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: but their testimonies held the most weight now for the defense. 355 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: Although they didn't call all of the alibi witnesses, they 356 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: did call Cynthia Jacques, the woman whose house Melvin went 357 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: to near Effie's because she was scared when she heard 358 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: about the murder. Cynthia's testimony was key. Cynthia testified that 359 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: it wasn't Melvin who committed the botched robbery. What she 360 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: said was that John had actually come to her with 361 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: a plan to blame it on someone else and then 362 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: collect the ten thousand dollars reward money so the two 363 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: of them could run off to Mexico with it. Allegedly, 364 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: Cynthia and John were having an affair. After four days 365 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: of trial, it was time for the jury to decide. 366 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: After only two and a half hours of deliberation, the 367 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: jury had a decision. 368 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 4: Nineteen year old Melvin Ortiz sat motionless in the courtroom, 369 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 4: showing no emotion as the jury gave its verdict guilty 370 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:36,479 Speaker 4: of second degree murder. 371 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 1: They ruled in favor of John and Tina's testimonies, and 372 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 1: Melvin was convicted and sentenced to life in prison without 373 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: the possibility of parole. It was a blow to everyone 374 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: in Melvin's life, including Victoria. She sat through the trial 375 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: for the cute boys she caught feelings for when originally 376 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: she didn't even think his case would make it to trial, 377 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,880 Speaker 1: and she had to think realistically. 378 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 3: I actually had made a decision to move on, you know, 379 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 3: and stop stop talking or seeing Melvin, because I knew 380 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 3: in my heart that our friendship was more than just 381 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 3: a friendship. I will say to back when I then 382 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 3: turned like eighteen or nineteen, I always knew I'm like, 383 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 3: I'm like, I want to marry Melbourn's. He's like my 384 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 3: best friend. We talk about everything. So it was around 385 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 3: that time that I think I was about twenty. At 386 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 3: the time I moved on, not only did I stop 387 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 3: talking to him, but I actually just left the state 388 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 3: of Pennsylvania. 389 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: Melvin was now a convicted murderer, staring down the rest 390 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: of his life behind bars. Was there ever a point 391 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 1: that you might have lost hope and thought that you know, 392 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: you'd be stuck in there. 393 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 5: Forever lots of time. 394 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 6: You know you're gonna have your your week moments, your 395 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 6: your hard days, and when you're gonna feel it hopeless, 396 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 6: you're gonna feel down, You're gonna feel like, man, I'm 397 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 6: never gonna get out of here. 398 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: You know, Melvin has petitioned for post conviction relief six 399 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: times from twenty and one to twenty sixteen, and he's 400 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: been denied every time. 401 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 5: He's like, what can you do? You know, you keep 402 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:28,360 Speaker 5: getting shot down from the courts. You know. I was like, Okay, 403 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 5: I'm appeal this, and you know I'm gonna win this 404 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 5: on appeal. 405 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 6: Man, Like I said, I was wrong, I was wrong 406 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 6: about a lot of things. 407 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 5: Twenty four years later, yeah, I am speaking to you. 408 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 3: I had followed Melvin's case and followed his appeals, and 409 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 3: you know it with heartbreaking each time I saw so 410 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 3: on them get denied because they were time barred. 411 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: In certain states, there's a limited amount of time you 412 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: can bring new evidence to the courts. In Pennsylvania it's 413 00:24:58,840 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: sixty days. 414 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 3: I think once or twice I actually wrote him a 415 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 3: letter like, you know, I wish you good luck on 416 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 3: your appeal, and just that I want you to know 417 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 3: I'm thinking about you. But in that gap of that 418 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 3: time frame, we never had the type of conversation we 419 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 3: had when we were, you know, younger, But I always 420 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 3: always thought about him. 421 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 1: Melvin thought about her too. 422 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 6: Fucking describeatory one word, I would say, extraordinary, you know, 423 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 6: I mean, she's just. 424 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 5: A good person overall. She has a beautiful heart. She's beautiful. 425 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 6: I love her, and throughout my bed I used to 426 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 6: do I used to always use her as a conversation 427 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 6: piece because you know, a lot of the guys they 428 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 6: used to talk about with their friends. 429 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 3: And and how. 430 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 5: Things were and you know the messed up part. And 431 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,400 Speaker 5: I used to be like, well, I knew a good one. 432 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 5: I had a good one. 433 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: That Victoria moved on and by two thousand and five 434 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: she was living in Florida. 435 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 3: I you know, obviously was with in my life doing 436 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 3: my thing, and I met my ex husband, and you know, 437 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 3: we had decided to get married. And I think six 438 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 3: weeks before I was about to get married, I had 439 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 3: wrote Melvin this letter, right because you know, that's what 440 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 3: we do. Anytime there's a big monumental thing going in, 441 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 3: you know, going on in your life, you want to 442 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 3: share it with the person that you care about. Vote. 443 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 3: So I had wrote this, wrote Melvin this letter that 444 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 3: you know, I'm getting married and this is this is 445 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 3: basically what I'm going to do, and this is a 446 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 3: little bit about what's going on with me. And I 447 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 3: ended up not sending it. I had it all written 448 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 3: out in the envelope ready to drop in the mailbox, 449 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 3: and I just I didn't put it in the mailbox 450 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 3: because I knew. I knew if he would have responded, I, 451 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 3: for one, probably wouldn't have went to the altar. 452 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: It wasn't until three years ago that everything changed for 453 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: Melvin Victoria and their relationship. In twenty twelve, the United 454 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: States Supreme Court ruled that it was unconstitutional for juveniles 455 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: to be mandatorily sentenced to life in prison without parole. 456 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 10: A Supreme Court decision that said juveniles are constitutionally different 457 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 10: from adults for the purposes of serviencing. 458 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: So over the next few years, states started resentencing their 459 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: juvenile lifers. Remember, Melvin was seventeen at the time of 460 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: the murder, a juvenile, so in twenty eighteen he was resentenced. 461 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: At this time, a lot of juvenile lifers were actually 462 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: being resentenced to twenty five to life in prison, which 463 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 1: for many would have been time they had already served. 464 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: Melvin's attorney recommended he be resentenced to twenty years to life, 465 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: which for him would also be time served, but instead 466 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,719 Speaker 1: a judge resentenced him to thirty five years to life. 467 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: Although it wasn't the sentence he was hoping for, he 468 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: figured any shot at freedom was better than none. 469 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 3: Like I said, I would always follow his case. And 470 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,479 Speaker 3: it's just like when he was resentenced in June of 471 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, it was I knew that the universe was 472 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 3: aligning things. 473 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,439 Speaker 1: Victoria's marriage was on the outs at this point, she 474 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: was getting divorced. 475 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 3: And I knew that that was the right time to 476 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 3: reach out to him. And instinctively, when I saw that 477 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,200 Speaker 3: with that resentencing, he would only have fourteen years left Maggie, 478 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 3: I thought to myself at the time, I thought, well, 479 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 3: I can wait fourteen years for him. That's what my gut, 480 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 3: my heart was telling me. 481 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: By that time, Victoria had thought a lot about wrongful 482 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: convictions and being with someone in prison. 483 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 3: I'll be honest, Back then and even up to a 484 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 3: few years ago, I didn't realize what an epidemic wrongful 485 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 3: convictions are. The people that are inside are are actually people. 486 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 3: I think the media portrays, you know, people that are 487 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 3: incarcerated as the horrible beings, but it's actually the majority 488 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 3: of them are serving time for miscellaneous marijuana charges and 489 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 3: wrongful convictions and crimes that have nothing to do with 490 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 3: public safety. Now I'm finding out, as I'm older and 491 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 3: there's more people that are wrongfully convicted coming home, I'm 492 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 3: finding out that that's more common than I thought it 493 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 3: was at the time. 494 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: She figured she'd do it, she'd jump back in with 495 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: Melvin and fight to exonerate him. So do you remember 496 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: what it was about Melvin's case that kind of struck. 497 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 10: You, Well, there are a number of features. I mean, 498 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 10: one is the fact that he was a juvenile and 499 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 10: such a clear victim in my view, in the words, 500 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 10: zero evidence actual evidence against Melvin, and significant evidence that 501 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 10: he was not there and it was impossible for him 502 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 10: to have been there. 503 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: This is Mark Howard, professor of Government and Law at 504 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 1: Georgetown University. He co teaches a class called Making an 505 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: Exonery with his childhood friend Marty Tankliff. Marty himself is 506 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: an x hoonery. In the class, the Georgetown students investigate 507 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: wrongful conviction cases and advocate for their innocence and exoneration. Victoria, 508 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: now fully committed to Melvin and his exoneration, reached out 509 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: to Mark's team for help, and after reviewing Mark's case 510 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: the Making an Exonery class, decided to take it on 511 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 1: to me. 512 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,479 Speaker 10: I mean, it's frank, A screaming case of a wrongful conviction. 513 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: Melvin's case has a lot of the classic hallmarks, such 514 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: as the lack of evidence, the rock solid alibi actually 515 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: nineteen alibi witnesses, and especially. 516 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 10: The shakiest of witnesses coming forward who have a motivation 517 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 10: which is to collect reward money and then two to 518 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 10: get the trail off of them. 519 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: Mark is talking about John Kelter Jerone, the star witness 520 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: and his girlfriend Tina Valentine. Now I mentioned that John 521 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: is the son of a Pennsylvania politician, so jurors may 522 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: have seen him during the trial as particularly credible. Well, 523 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: it wasn't until after the trial that previously hidden information 524 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: about John started to surface. 525 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 10: So one, John had an extensive criminal record himself. His 526 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 10: record was never admitted, it was later even expunged, and 527 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 10: then none of it was disclosed to the jury, and 528 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 10: he came forward as if he were a credible witness 529 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 10: and upstanding citizen, which he's far from. 530 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: Mark believes this has to do with who John's dad. 531 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 10: Was, Thomas Heltera Jerone, who was a state rep Presentative 532 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 10: in Pennsylvania and as head of the Judiciary Committee, he 533 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 10: controlled the budget of the court system. And so you're 534 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 10: talking about someone with huge influence over the court system, 535 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 10: over the judge, over the prosecutor's office through his political role, 536 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 10: and so that in a sense gave John cover. His 537 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,960 Speaker 10: record was never admitted. It's very, very suspicious, and when 538 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 10: you add that to the fact that there's nothing else 539 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 10: against Melbourne other than this testimony and then the kind 540 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 10: of pressure testimony of his girlfriend, you think something is 541 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 10: rotten here, and. 542 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: Something may have been. Tina was only sixteen and pregnant 543 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: with John's child at the time of the trial in 544 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: two thousand and five, when she was twenty two years old, 545 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,719 Speaker 1: Tina came forward and admitted that John pressured her on 546 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: what to say. She had lied about everything. She began 547 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: speaking up about the truth after her son died, which 548 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: she interpreted as karma from God for knowingly taking Melvin's 549 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 1: life away, and her recantation. She says it was John 550 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: who committed the murder, and remember at trial, Melvin's friend 551 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 1: Cynthia said the same thing that John told her he 552 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: wanted to run away with her for the ten thousand 553 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: dollars reward money. One of the members of Melvin's team 554 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: at Georgetown is now part of our team at Wrongful Conviction, Eastmuddy, Guadalama. 555 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: Here's what Tina told Eastmuddy in an interview about what 556 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: happened that night in December of nineteen ninety seven. Tina 557 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: said she spent that day shopping and saw John as 558 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: soon as he came home. 559 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 11: John's beating past the house. Now he's supposed to be 560 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 11: at work, but he's flying past the house and everything. 561 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 11: And he came and he picked me up and told 562 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 11: me to grab the bag behind the door, And I 563 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 11: didn't know what it was, I'm like, what he's like 564 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 11: the bag behind the door. 565 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: According to Tina, the bag contained a mask, gloves, and 566 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: a hoodie. 567 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 11: And then that evening is when he sat down with 568 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 11: me more and told me what supposedly had happened, that 569 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 11: him and Melvin supposedly went in and robbed the pizza shop. 570 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 11: I didn't believe it because one Melvin was at a 571 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 11: birthday party. When that all was said and done, John 572 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 11: started opening up a little bit more to me. He's like, look, 573 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 11: you're gonna have to say this and say this and 574 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 11: say this to get them off my ask. And they 575 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 11: think it's Melvin that let them think that. 576 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,840 Speaker 1: So if she knew Melvin was innocent, why did Tina 577 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,240 Speaker 1: agree to testify on John's behalf. 578 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 11: It's scared fear, not just from him, from his father 579 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 11: and his father's pool and people that you knew. I 580 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 11: had a bunch of people job trying to pressure me 581 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 11: from the family. 582 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 2: Did you ever experience any sort of guilt or stress 583 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 2: at the time of the trial when you were. 584 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 11: Sixteen, Yeah, that was a lot me sitting there one 585 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,760 Speaker 11: stand saying that it was Melvin, and I wholeheartedly knew 586 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,720 Speaker 11: that Melvin had nothing to do with any of this. 587 00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: Since two thousand and eight, Tina has been working with 588 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:36,320 Speaker 1: Melvin's family to present her testimony before a judge. Melvin 589 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 1: has attempted to use Tina's recanted testimony an admission of 590 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: perjury several times, but again, the courts keep denying it 591 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 1: on the basis of the evidence being time barred. It 592 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: took ten years for the courts to hear her recanted testimony. 593 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, when the judge finally did, he decided 594 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 1: that although he believed her, it wouldn't have changed the 595 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: trial's verdict. Here's Mark again. 596 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 10: I think there's so many different features to the case. Now, 597 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 10: talk to Melvin himself. He is a kind, intelligent, caring, loyal, 598 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 10: just a person with integrity, and he's someone who presents 599 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 10: zero and I mean zero threat to public safety. To 600 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,320 Speaker 10: think that Pennsylvania taxpayers are spending close to fifty thousand 601 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 10: dollars a year to keep Melvin Ortiz in prison for 602 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,399 Speaker 10: something he didn't do since he was a child, and 603 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 10: that we have elected officials who are trying to make 604 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,760 Speaker 10: that permanent for the rest of his life, it's just unacceptable. 605 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: We should also note that Mark Baldwin, the district attorney 606 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,320 Speaker 1: who tried Melvin's case, was cited in another wrongful conviction case, 607 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,919 Speaker 1: that of Roddy Johnson. In that case, district Attorney Mark 608 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: Baldwin was cited for egregious prosecutor real misconduct. Mister Johnson 609 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:04,720 Speaker 1: was exonerated in twenty twenty. 610 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 10: And to me, that suggests that every case that prosecutor 611 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 10: worked on should at least be looked at, and Melvin's 612 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 10: case being one of them, and Melvin having many other 613 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 10: hallmarks of a wrongful conviction, I think that adds even 614 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:23,640 Speaker 10: more power to his claim. 615 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 1: Melvin says being incarcerated has definitely put a strain on 616 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 1: his family and their relationship. 617 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 6: You know, there are gaps between our relationship with my 618 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:34,359 Speaker 6: family and stuff like that. 619 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 5: There are gaps, you know, don't get a. 620 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 6: Messed up, but you know, we try to bridge those 621 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:44,320 Speaker 6: gaps because his family is important, you know, because especially 622 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 6: on a situation like this, I guess one of the 623 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 6: things that bring us together is my innocence. 624 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,920 Speaker 3: I mean, his family has spent probably close to one 625 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,280 Speaker 3: hundred thousand dollars in attorney's feed just trying to bring 626 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,319 Speaker 3: to life of the cross evidence they've had to move, 627 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 3: they've had to downside, they've had to refinance, you know, 628 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 3: their original house, all types of financial impacts as well 629 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 3: as the emotional. 630 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 1: Melvin's Dadjan is still working six days a week at 631 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: the age of seventy eight, trying to pay off the 632 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:18,280 Speaker 1: family's debts. 633 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, two parents working two jobs to pay attorneys sees. 634 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 3: And you also have you know, Melvin calling from the inside. 635 00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 3: And keep in mind, you know, when he went in 636 00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:31,120 Speaker 3: he was eighteen and up until now, you know, the 637 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,879 Speaker 3: physical trauma, the physical abuse scenes. He's young, and he's 638 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 3: surrounded by older persons who have been there much longer 639 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 3: than him. It's extremely it's extremely stressful and oppressive. 640 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: While in prison, Melvin spends his free time reading, exercising, 641 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 1: playing chess, and talking to Victoria. 642 00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 5: What are your. 643 00:38:58,200 --> 00:38:59,879 Speaker 1: Plans for the future when you get out? 644 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 6: You know, my plan is to marry Victoria, see if 645 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 6: we can build a family from there. 646 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 5: I just wanting to take it one day at a time. 647 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:12,760 Speaker 5: I just want to find peace. 648 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 6: I mean, after this experience, like the word piece is 649 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 6: very strong for me. 650 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: Okay, so my last question is is there any kind 651 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 1: of like food or something that you're drying to have 652 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: when you get out. 653 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:35,080 Speaker 6: Mom's cooking, you know something, just mom's cooking. I missed 654 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 6: that the mont. 655 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, Melvin is currently appealing the twenty eighteen resentencing decision 656 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: of thirty five years to life. As of right now, 657 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: he's eligible for parole in twenty thirty two. The second 658 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,640 Speaker 1: perpetrator in the robbery and homicide of George Klausser has 659 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: never been found. Next time on Wrongful Conviction with Maggie 660 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: Freeling Mike Pohlee. 661 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 12: When they were interrogating me, they asked me, you know, 662 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,879 Speaker 12: who do you think part of your mother? There's only 663 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,359 Speaker 12: one person that I know that hated her that much 664 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 12: to do that to her, And what I've seen was 665 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,360 Speaker 12: evil hatred. 666 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. 667 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,279 Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the 668 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 1: links in our bio to see how you can help. 669 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our executive producers Jason Flamm and 670 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 1: Kevin Wurtis, as well as our senior producer Annie Chelsea, 671 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 1: researcher Lila Robinson, story editor Sonya Paul, fact checking and 672 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 1: additional reporting. Eastmany Guadarrama with additional production by Jeff Cliburn 673 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: and Connor Hall. Special thanks go to Mark Howard and 674 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: the making an ex Honery class at Georgetown University. The 675 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: music in this production is by three time OSCAR nominated 676 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram 677 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and 678 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 1: on Twitter at Wrongful Conviction, as well as at Lava 679 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 1: for Good. On all three platforms, you can also follow 680 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:17,360 Speaker 1: me on both Instagram and Twitter at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful 681 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,319 Speaker 1: Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a production of Lava for 682 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one