1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,159 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 3 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 2: is Robert. 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 3: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And today we are back 5 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 3: with part two of our series on the beaver. Yeah. 6 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 2: In the last episode, we hopefully gave you a newfound, improved, 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 2: and reinvigorated appreciation for the common beaver, the world's second 8 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 2: largest living rodent and a tireless ecosystem engineer. 9 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 3: That's right. Last time we focused mainly on the real 10 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 3: life biology, behavior, and ecological role of the beaver, So 11 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 3: if you haven't listened to part one, you should probably 12 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 3: go back and check that one out first. I think 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 3: that will give you a richer understanding of the stuff 14 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 3: we're going to be talking about today. But for a 15 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 3: very brief recap, Yeah, beavers are large. They're the second 16 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 3: largest extant rodent after the capybara. Beavers have iron in 17 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 3: their teeth, perfect fortureing through wood to cut down trees 18 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 3: and for gnawing off pieces of vegetation. Beavers, of course 19 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 3: eat vegetation their herbivores, and their diet includes foliage, but 20 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 3: also the bark and the outer layers of soft wood 21 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 3: from tree branches and trunks. Beavers, of course build amazing structures. 22 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,479 Speaker 3: They dam waterways to change the characteristics of flowing waterways 23 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 3: to sort of like create ponds and redirect water flow 24 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 3: and so forth to deepen water channels. And they also 25 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 3: build these essentially impenetrable lodges with underwater entrances and exits 26 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 3: for their own housing and protection. And these constructions also 27 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 3: allow underwater storage of caches of vegetation to provide food 28 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 3: throughout the winter. And then finally, we discussed several studies 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 3: of what might or might not be considered tool use 30 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 3: in beavers. This was a lot of fun, including we 31 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 3: had a long digression on the so called stick displays 32 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 3: where some beavers in particular populations. Is not common to 33 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 3: all beavers of either of the extent species, but this 34 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 3: was documented among some Eurasian beavers in Norway. They would 35 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 3: pick up a stick and they would shake it, shake 36 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 3: it up and down while holding it in the mouth 37 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 3: and forepaws. The researchers believed this was to demonstrate strength 38 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 3: in order to drive away potential antagonists, maybe other beavers 39 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 3: encroaching onto their territory, And of course we ended up 40 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 3: highlighting the most impressive of the stick shaking beavers, a beautiful, 41 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 3: powerful warrior of the wasteland named Beergit. 42 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 2: Yes her name, I had to look this up. Her 43 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 2: name and apparently means power, strength, vigor, and virtue. 44 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 3: Wow. 45 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,679 Speaker 2: The other beaver in that study that's not as. 46 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 3: As impressive the second place shake. 47 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 2: The second place was Froda. Frodo's name means clever, learned, 48 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: and wise. And this is also, like I said, this 49 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 2: is related to Frodo, Like Frodo is like a variation 50 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 2: of this name that Tolkien used in the Lord of 51 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 2: the Rings. 52 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 3: That makes sense. Yeah, While the real life biology of 53 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 3: the beaver is truly fascinating, what actually first got us 54 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 3: interested in this topic was something you came across, rob, 55 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:15,519 Speaker 3: which was the pattern of deeply off the mark illustrations 56 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:20,119 Speaker 3: of beavers in medieval and Renaissance manuscripts, just so far 57 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,839 Speaker 3: off the mark in depicting this animal. You wonder how 58 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 3: it happened. 59 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, we got into a little bit and discussed how, 60 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:28,519 Speaker 2: you know, we have to take into account that while 61 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: we do have one variety of beavers in North America 62 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 2: and the other variety in Eurasia, you know, not everyone 63 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: would have had direct exposure to it. You have that 64 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 2: game of telephone taking place about these species depending on 65 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 2: illustrations and second and third hand accounts. Then there's the 66 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:48,119 Speaker 2: added fact that beavers are largely nocturnal. They live out 67 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 2: often in very remote circumstances, so the average even observer 68 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 2: may not get to observe them that closely. And then, 69 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 2: as we'll discuss in this episode, even more there are 70 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 2: additional elements of their physiology that may mystify someone who 71 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: is observing them in the wild or trying to make 72 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 2: sense of their bodies as the carcass is processed. 73 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. Another thing though, is that the Eurasian beaver was 74 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 3: once hunted nearer to extinction. Its populations have bounced back 75 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 3: significantly since then since the twentieth century, but it came 76 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 3: kind of close for the Eurasian beaver, like the hunter 77 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 3: has really got over on them for a while. Yeah. 78 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 2: North American beavers were also in bad shape, and two 79 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 2: of the main drivers for this. One of them is 80 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 2: beaver hats in beaver fur. I'm to understand that the 81 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: beaver hat going out of style helped out a lot, 82 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 2: but there's another major beaver product, beaver derived product we're 83 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 2: going to discuss in this episode that also threatened these species. 84 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 2: So yeah, these are going to be important, especially when 85 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 2: we talk about a particular detail of various bestiaries and 86 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 2: illuminated manuscripts that show beavers or alleged beavers. Some of 87 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 2: these are very strange beavers. They look more like a 88 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 2: deer or a dog, or a lion or you name it. 89 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 2: But at any rate, the main perplexing detail is that 90 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 2: they are depicted chewing off their own testicles whilst being 91 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 2: pursued by a human hunter. 92 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 3: I thought we should mention and describe a few of 93 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 3: these actual illustrations and the manuscripts they come from, So 94 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 3: I came across a post about this on the British 95 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 3: Library's Medieval Manuscripts blog. I love the British Library's blogs, 96 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 3: by the way, they often are wonderful resource. But this 97 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 3: post is from November seventh, twenty twelve. It's called Beaver's 98 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 3: on the Run by Nicole Eddie and it includes a 99 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 3: number of illustrations, a couple that we alluded to at 100 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 3: the beginning of part one of this series and several 101 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 3: that I think we haven't talked about yet, but none 102 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 3: of which have we featured in detail. So the author 103 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 3: of this blog post says you can usually recognize a 104 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 3: beaver in a medieval bestiary, which seemed at first like 105 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 3: a very odd statement because most of these drawings look 106 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:11,239 Speaker 3: absolutely nothing like the real animal, not even a little, 107 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 3: But she goes on to explain you can recognize them 108 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 3: because they are always depicted the same way in a 109 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 3: characteristic or stereotyped scene quote on the run, pursued by 110 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 3: a hunter who is frequently blowing a horn and accompanied 111 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 3: by hunting dogs. And just as you said, Rob, we 112 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 3: can add to that image the fact that they are 113 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 3: often depicted either discarding or in the middle of biting 114 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 3: off their own testicles while in hot pursuit. Several examples. 115 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 3: Let's start with one we briefly alluded to in part one. 116 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 3: So this is a miniature from a Latin bestiary originating 117 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 3: in England from the second or third quarter of the 118 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 3: thirteenth century. The manuscript is known as Sloane thirty five 119 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 3: forty four. So what we see in a miniature with 120 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 3: the Latin text all around is a sort of rectangle 121 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 3: of red background decorated with these three leaf clover shapes, 122 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 3: and then we have what appears to be some kind 123 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 3: of big cat, maybe a mountain lion. Compared to the 124 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 3: human and the dog in this drawing, it is about 125 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 3: the size of a horse. Also, it has a horse's tail. 126 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 3: Did you notice that has like a hairtail. 127 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, this does not even look like a fish tail. 128 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 2: As we mentioned before some depictions of beavers, they often 129 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 2: have almost like a mermaid quality to them. 130 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 3: Huh. Of course, beavers do have interesting unusual tails. They 131 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 3: have the flat tail, which aids them in swimming, but 132 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 3: they also use for a type of signaling known as 133 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 3: water slapping, where they slap the surface of the water 134 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,239 Speaker 3: to make loud sounds, and this is used for social 135 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 3: reasons to signal to the to the other beavers around 136 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 3: them that may be a predator or a rival beaver 137 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 3: from outside the family group is approaching their territory. 138 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: I will say this about this particular quote unquote beaver. 139 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 2: The posture here with feet back rear, feet on the ground, front, 140 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 2: feet elevated, and this tail as horsey as it looks, 141 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 2: it is kind of going down and out, which is 142 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 2: at least vaguely reminiscent of the way that beavers will 143 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 2: often walk if they're carrying something, you know, with that 144 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 2: tail helping them to balance, and their front legs are 145 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 2: up helping to carry something. 146 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 3: That would be fortunate if that was the artist's intention. 147 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 3: But I think what's being shown here is a horsehair 148 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 3: style tail like flapping in the wind as the beaver runs. 149 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: If it were not for the you know, vulgar error 150 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:40,439 Speaker 2: as we'll discuss regarding the eating of the testicles or 151 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 2: the biting of the testicles here, this is otherwise, I 152 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 2: think a beautiful image. I like the use of the 153 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 2: like the red, the like the deep crimson behind it. 154 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,199 Speaker 3: Oh but wait, we didn't get to the animal's head yet. 155 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 3: So it's got horse sized body, horse looking tail, but 156 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 3: with feline paws, and an approximately leonine head like a 157 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 3: mountain lion's head, but also with a snake neck. It's 158 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 3: kind of a dragon like. The neck is curving around 159 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 3: and it appears to be covered in maybe feathers or scales, 160 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 3: and the neck is curving all the way around for 161 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 3: the head to reach back and yes, bite its own testicles. 162 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 3: While the beast is in mid spring, it's leaping through 163 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 3: the air and biting while it's aloft. Its front paws 164 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 3: are off the ground. 165 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 2: It is a strange image, Jef. You had no background 166 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 2: on this, you would just think this is a fantastic creature. 167 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 3: Yeah. Meanwhile, the hunting dog is after it is, of 168 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 3: course sort of barking, pulling. Maybe is that a leashure? 169 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 3: I can't quite tell. But there's a hunter. Also a 170 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 3: dude standing there looking kind of like a hungover George Washington, 171 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 3: and he is blowing an upturned hunter's horn. 172 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. All the eyes in this image look kind of bloodshot. 173 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 2: Adds an interesting effect to it. 174 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 3: Okay, next image for us to discuss. This is from 175 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 3: a work known as the Rochester Bestiary from England around 176 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 3: the year twelve, in a manuscript called Royal twelve f. 177 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 3: This one is a lot more colorful. Here, the hunt 178 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 3: takes place on a green hill with a golden sky 179 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 3: in the background and trees that look like asparagus. The 180 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 3: hunter has blonde surfer hair and wears a blue tunic. 181 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 3: He really does. It's kind of surfery, isn't it. It's 182 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 3: kind of Owen Wilson hair. Yeah, and he's blowing as 183 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 3: his horn. He's carrying either a sword or a club 184 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 3: of some kind in the other hand from the horn, 185 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 3: The dogs are howling in pursuit. The beaver is once 186 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 3: again sort of a serpentine lion with the long scaly 187 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 3: neck twisting all the way back around, biting off the genitalia, 188 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 3: but with a different face this time. The beaver's face 189 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 3: here is kind of sad and porky, like like a 190 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 3: lion pig muttering geez not again. 191 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is another strange one where the beaver looks 192 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 2: more like a camel or perhaps you know, some variation 193 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 2: of prehistoric mammal. 194 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, now I want to get into some ones that 195 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 3: have more differences. The next one has actually no testicle biting. 196 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 3: This is from an herbal medicine manual called Tractatus de 197 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 3: Herbis from Salerno, which is in Italy, produced between twelve 198 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 3: eighty and thirteen ten. The manuscript is called Egerton seven 199 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 3: forty seven. Here the hunter is a wizard. That interesting. 200 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 3: He's wearing a pointy wizard hat, and he has huge hands, 201 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 3: one of which is like up in front of his face, 202 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 3: almost as if he's marveling at the hand, like how 203 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 3: did my hand get this way? What has become of me? 204 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 2: Yeah? This image has a kind of childlike wonder to it, 205 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 2: especially when we're describing the beaver. 206 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 3: That's right, right, So, yeah, the wizard hunter has gigantic 207 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 3: hands bigger than his head. He's got his horn slung 208 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,239 Speaker 3: around his shoulder. He's about to heave a spear. Interesting, 209 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 3: I guess there was spear hunting of beavers maybe, But 210 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 3: he's got a spear like cocked back, ready to throw it. 211 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 3: And then the hunter, the dogs, and the beaver are 212 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 3: all standing in what looks like a field of spinach plants, 213 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 3: Like there are these green forking plants interspersed all around. 214 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 3: I don't know if that's supposed to be the kind 215 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 3: of vegetation growing in the landscape that has been altered 216 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 3: by the proximity of a beaver dam. And then one 217 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 3: of the dogs is gigantic and the other is not 218 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 3: that gigantic. And then the beaver is a horse, And 219 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 3: I mean, I mean that it's not like a horse. 220 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 3: The beaver is a horse. It's just a. 221 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 2: Horse, Yeah, a kind of shaggy looking horse with I 222 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 2: believe visible testicles. 223 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:34,959 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, not just visible. They're sort of in bold 224 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 3: compared to the rest of the illustration, Do you know 225 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 3: what I'm saying? Yeah, Yeah, they're like filled in a 226 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 3: darker color than anything else. So the beaver horse is 227 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 3: not biting them off, but they're just like, they're very 228 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 3: prominent and they're almost perfectly centered in the illustration. 229 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe the dogs got to him before you get 230 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 2: in this narrative, get rid of them. 231 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 3: Okay, This next one I thought was really fun. This 232 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 3: is from another English best ear a twelfth century in 233 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 3: a manuscript called Stowe ten sixty seven. It's not fully colored, 234 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 3: in just a line drawing. The hunter looks like he's 235 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 3: dancing kind of. He looks, you know, jolly, like he's moving, 236 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 3: he's feeling the rhythm, and he's blowing his horn and 237 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 3: pointing a single finger at the beaver with his one hand. 238 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 3: You see the pointing hand. I don't know why. That 239 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 3: was really funny to me. But the beaver, meanwhile, is 240 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 3: a dog. It's just fully a dog, but with one 241 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 3: major variation with weird bulbous eye sockets bulging out of 242 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 3: his head over the snout. And we were trying to 243 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 3: figure out which Star Wars alien this dog looked like. 244 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 3: I eventually realized I was sort of thinking, it looks 245 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,599 Speaker 3: like the dog version of the Zandozan assassin from the 246 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 3: Last Starfighter. 247 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I can see that, and I took a 248 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 2: I was like, something was about this was ringing Star 249 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 2: Wars for me as well. So I had the best 250 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 2: diaries some of a couple of Star Wars best areas 251 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 2: out anyway for the Monster fact I'm working on for 252 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 2: this week, So I was like, what is it reminding 253 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 2: me of? And I think it's reminding me of the 254 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 2: of issue tib. This is a strange kind of Avian 255 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 2: or beak looking creature that's in the background at Java's 256 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:22,479 Speaker 2: Palace but has also subsequently been used in like comics 257 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 2: and on the Clone Wars and stuff like that. 258 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 3: This was one of those where you showed me an 259 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 3: image and I was like, oh, I have seen this before, 260 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 3: but I can't remember from where. It's really kind of 261 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 3: in the background, but yeah, Isshu Tube is like in 262 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 3: Return of the Jedi. There I found a shot of 263 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 3: him like back sort of behind Luke's head while Luke 264 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 3: is pointing a blaster at Java. 265 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 2: He's not, in my opinion, one of the more interesting 266 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 2: Java's Palace aliens. Like I didn't have him as a figure, 267 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 2: which you know, maybe that's because I didn't find him interesting, 268 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 2: or maybe I don't find him interesting because I don't 269 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 2: have the connection with the toy. 270 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 3: Well, anyway, do you get back to the beaver in 271 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 3: this drawing, which again is just a dull. It's interesting 272 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 3: because he's not biting his testicles here. They're floating in 273 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 3: the air behind him, as if the alien dog beaver 274 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 3: has sort of projectile defecated them in the hunter's direction. 275 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 3: You see, they're like a floating four leaf clover in 276 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 3: the air. 277 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 2: The four leafed aspect of the testicle is interesting, and 278 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 2: I think that will be of note when we get 279 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 2: into the actual anatomy of the lower regions of the beaver. 280 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 3: Now, the examples don't stop there. We could go on 281 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 3: naming many more, but I think you get the idea. 282 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 3: There was one thing I just wanted to mention further 283 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 3: because it's kind of interesting variation, and that's an illustration 284 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 3: of a beaver hunt from the Queen Mary Salter, an 285 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 3: early fourteenth century manuscript called Royal two B. And in 286 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 3: this one, the beaver again looks nothing like a beaver, 287 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 3: but in a different way. This time it's just a fox. 288 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 3: It's yeah, would you say it's like a gray fox? 289 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, it looks like a fox. 290 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 3: The hunter approaches with an axe propped up on his shoulder, 291 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 3: and the beaver lies on his back, exposing his belly. Interesting. 292 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 3: Apparently this was another common motif in these medieval illustrations 293 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,479 Speaker 3: of beavers, in addition to beaver's biting off their own testicles. 294 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 3: Allegedly this would happen they would lie on their back 295 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 3: and expose their belly after they had previously bitten them off, 296 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 3: or after they had been harvested by a previous hunter 297 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 3: and the beaver had survived. So the beaver here is 298 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 3: revealing I haven't got what you're looking for. And then 299 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 3: the hunter in this image, the hunter does look kind 300 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 3: of annoyed, doesn't he. He's like, ah, what for real? 301 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 3: He does? 302 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 2: These guys hand up like ah, man chase this critter 303 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 2: down in the woods and it doesn't have the goods anymore. 304 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 3: But in the medieval lore of beaver hunts, the idea 305 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 3: was that the beaver is clever, It knows what the 306 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 3: hunter is looking for, and the beaver is thinking, oh, 307 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 3: if I can show off that I don't have what 308 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 3: the hunter needs, it won't kill me. 309 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, now this is going to be interesting to reflect 310 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 2: on it in a bed when we talk about beaver aggression, 311 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 2: I can only imagine that this idea of the cornered 312 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 2: beaver being a docile creature is an extreme exaggeration and inaccuracy. 313 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 3: So this imagery is obviously a lot of fun. But 314 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 3: rob would you, I think it's safe to say, I 315 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 3: hope you'll agree that the chomping, off, dropping, shooting, projectile, 316 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 3: pooping of testicles, none of this reflects any biological reality. 317 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 3: This is not something beavers actually do, or ever actually did. Correct. 318 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is, as we'll discuss in a bit, it's 319 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 2: referred to as the vulgar error. At times, the error 320 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 2: is based on some definite biological realities concerning the beaver. 321 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,919 Speaker 2: But they did not do this. Yeah, this is not 322 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 2: something they did. This is not something I think any 323 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 2: animal does. So before we get into exactly why that, 324 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,199 Speaker 2: we have to talk about what they were after with 325 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 2: all of this. They were after castorium, the hunters were Yes, 326 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 2: the hunters were after castorium, a product derived from beaver's 327 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 2: I believe we mentioned this briefly in the last episode. 328 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 2: But the basic reality here is beavers keep their hide 329 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 2: waterproof via oily secretions from their cast or glands. Each 330 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 2: beaver male or female has a pair of these along 331 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,479 Speaker 2: with a pair of anal glands. So so far castor 332 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 2: glands anal glands one pair of each. This alone makes 333 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 2: me think back to that sort of four clothed testicle 334 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 2: that has dropped in one of those eliminated manuscript details 335 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 2: we were discussing. 336 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the four sacks that's being chucked at the hunter. 337 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. Now I found a great article of great short 338 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 2: but detailed article with illustrations about the glands of the beaver. 339 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 2: This is from nineteen seventy eight by Gerald E. Svenson, 340 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 2: and it's titled cast and anal Glands of the Beaver 341 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 2: and was published in the Journal of Mammalogy and it's 342 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 2: on jay Store. It's free to access. If you really 343 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 2: want to go in depth on this and see the 344 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 2: very helpful illustrations, I definitely recommend it. But the author 345 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 2: here says, quote, these glands liberate odoriferous products that may 346 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 2: be used in the construction of scent mounts and in 347 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 2: scent communication. 348 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 3: This will sort of connect to what we talked about 349 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 3: in the previous episode about the territoriality observed in the 350 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 3: Eurasian beavers, where a family group would build a lodge 351 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 3: in a dam, and it would sort of police the 352 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 3: borders of its area to keep rivals out. And one 353 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 3: of the things it would do in order to indicate 354 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,199 Speaker 3: the borders of its area is do scent marking. And 355 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 3: often it was observed that along with the stick shaking behavior, 356 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 3: when a beaver felt its territory might be being encroached 357 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 3: on by another beaver from outside the group, it would 358 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 3: engage in a additional scent marking. It would start to 359 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 3: mark either with anal glands or castorium. Yeah. 360 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 2: So both anal uncastor glands are in a cavity that 361 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 2: the author here describes as being similar to a scrotum, 362 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 2: and that quote. Testes lie anterior to the glands in 363 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 2: the distal region of the Inguinol Canal. The testes protrude 364 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,360 Speaker 2: into the gland cavity in sexually mature males, but are 365 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 2: separated from the glands by tissue of the terminal end 366 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 2: of the Inginol canal and the lining of the gland cavity. Okay, 367 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 2: I realize that's a lot and joe for you. Anyway, 368 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 2: I included an illustration from this paper that I think 369 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 2: makes a little more sense of this. This is one 370 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 2: of two illustrations that the author provides, and a reminder, 371 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 2: we're very much in the kloaca here. 372 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 3: Right, So in the back of the beaver, sort of 373 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 3: between the tail and the hind legs, we have the 374 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 3: gland cavity and it contains these different organs, the anal 375 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 3: gland and the castor gland. 376 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 2: Yes, now he points out that anal glands are posterior 377 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 2: to the castor glands, and each gland opens independently via ducts. 378 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 2: So the castor glands, however, don't open directly to the outside. Instead, 379 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 2: they hook up to the urethra and open into the 380 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 2: beaver's cloaca. However, I imagine this will be key to 381 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 2: what we're discussing here. 382 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 3: Quote. 383 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 2: Contraction of the muscle sheath also forces the papillary end 384 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 2: of the anal gland to protrude from the cloaca. I 385 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 2: do not think the same is true of the castor 386 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 2: glands proper, but again I'm thinking of some of that. Basically, 387 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 2: getting back to this idea of glands something like testicles, 388 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 2: or they could be seen as testicles emerging from the 389 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 2: cloaca of the beaver, and then it's not there again, 390 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 2: you know. Common feature of these illustrations interesting though, the 391 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,719 Speaker 2: if I'm understanding everything correctly, these would be the anal glands, 392 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 2: not the castor glands. 393 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 3: But the illustrator doesn't understand it's either one. They think 394 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 3: they're seeing gonads and then like they're there again, and 395 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 3: then then they're gone right now. 396 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 2: As for the castorium itself, I've seen it described as 397 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:21,239 Speaker 2: butter like. Svenson describes it as yellowish, but then it 398 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,479 Speaker 2: turns brown when exposed to air and sunlight. He shares 399 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 2: that urine washes the cast or out in a quote 400 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 2: unquote composite mixture that has a pungent odor. He writes, 401 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 2: the secretions from both pairs of glands quote can be 402 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 2: involved in scent mound construction, but that the method of 403 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 2: producing these secretions differs based on what we've just discussed. 404 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 2: So anal gland secretions are rubbed on something, they're expressed, 405 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 2: and then the beaver you know, gets to rub it 406 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 2: on the rock or the tree trunk, whatever, while castorium 407 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 2: is essentially urinated out. So beaver's use castorum to mark 408 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 2: territory and to waterproof their fur. But since ancient times, 409 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 2: humans have found other uses for the substance to harvest it. 410 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 2: It can be milked from a live animal apparently. I've 411 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 2: read that they frequently expel it when handled, though again 412 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 2: huge caveat here. Don't go trying to handle beavers. I'm 413 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 2: not sure under what circumstances it is even recommended to 414 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 2: do this, but leave it to the professionals. Professional beaver handlers, 415 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 2: if they exist, are the ones that need to be 416 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,919 Speaker 2: doing this. Most of what we're talking about here, especially 417 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 2: with these illustrations and historical collection of castorium, though, involves 418 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 2: of course killing the beaver, and this requires the glands 419 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 2: to be removed post mortem and then smoked for preservation. Joe, 420 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 2: I've included a photo. You can find lots of photos 421 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 2: of castorium that has been dried or smoked, and it 422 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 2: essentially looks like some sort like you might imagine some 423 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 2: sort of like dried up gland, some sort of like 424 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 2: you know, mummified scrotum sort of idea here. 425 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 3: You ever, like a drop a fingerling potato while you're 426 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 3: preparing food and it rolls under the cabinet and you 427 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 3: don't realize it's there, and then you find it a 428 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 3: few months later when you're cleaning and it's all shriveled 429 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 3: up into Yes, like a mummy of a potato. That's 430 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 3: what it looks like. 431 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 2: Yes. Now getting into this idea of the alleged testicle drop, 432 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 2: this has been around for quite a while, and you 433 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 2: find mention of it in the works of Plenty of 434 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 2: the Elder from the Natural History, where of course we're 435 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 2: always turning to Plenty to see what he had to say. 436 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 2: And this is what he had to say in the 437 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: Natural History. This is the Bostic translation quote the beavers 438 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 2: of Yuxin, when they are closely pressed by danger, themselves 439 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 2: cut off the same part, as they know that it 440 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 2: is for this they are pursued. This substance is called 441 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 2: castorian by the physicians. In addition to this, the bite 442 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 2: of this animal is terrible. With its teeth, it can 443 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 2: cut down trees on the banks of rivers, just as 444 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,640 Speaker 2: though with a knife. If they seize a man by 445 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 2: any part of his body, they will never loose their 446 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 2: hold until his bones are broken and crackle under their teeth. 447 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 2: The tail is like that of a fish. In other 448 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 2: parts of the body they resemble the otter. They are 449 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 2: both of them aquatic animals, and both have hair softer 450 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 2: than down. 451 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 3: I love the description of the ferociousness here is sort 452 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 3: of describing like the snapping turtle reputation. You know, it 453 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 3: won't let go into lightning strikes. If you make a 454 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 3: beaver mad, it's gonna bite until your bones are broken, 455 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 3: and basically it's crunching on them like cereal. 456 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is an idea that I think for 457 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 2: many of us might seem comical because we don't think 458 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 2: of the beaver as being aggressive. And you know, as 459 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 2: we discussed in the last episode, beavers, certainly when they're 460 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 2: dealing with other beavers, they have an number of safeguards 461 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 2: in place to prevent actual combat from occurring unless necessary. 462 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 2: So you might be wondering, well, is there anything too, 463 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 2: Is this just Plenty getting it wrong, or are beaver's 464 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 2: truly this ferocious? Well, beaver attacks on humans are rare, 465 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 2: but they are not unknown. Rabies can of course play 466 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 2: a role, but it's not always a factor in these 467 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 2: rare instances. We might laugh at Plenty's description, but beavers are, 468 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 2: of course wild animals. They should be respected, and they 469 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 2: can be put into situations where they then violently defend themselves. 470 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 2: There has been at least one account of a fatal 471 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 2: attack on a human in the last century, and I 472 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,439 Speaker 2: believe in that case it was a situation where they 473 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 2: were bit by the beaver and then bled to death. 474 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 2: Now there is a wonderful CBC Radio interview out there 475 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 2: if you haven't heard it, from the early nineties and 476 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 2: then I'm not sure the date is known, but it 477 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 2: was rebroadcasting I think ninety seven, and that's the version 478 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: that is archived with CBC Radio. It's apparently one of 479 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 2: the most requested recordings from the CBC Radio archive. If 480 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 2: you look for it, you can find it out there. 481 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 2: It is action packed, it is a little bit funny. 482 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 2: It's but it's also not for the weak of heart. 483 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 3: This interview is riveting. A man describes I think he's 484 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 3: trying to drive across a bridge in his truck when 485 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 3: during a heavy downpour, or maybe right after one, and 486 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 3: the bridge is sort of flooded. There's some water standing 487 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 3: between the concrete barriers on the sides of the bridge, 488 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 3: and it appears that a beaver has taken up residence 489 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 3: on the bridge. It's sort of swimming back and forth 490 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 3: in the water. The man gets out of his truck 491 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 3: because he is afraid he has accidentally hit the beaver 492 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 3: with his truck, and when he gets out, the beaver 493 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 3: angrily latches onto his leg and proceeds to attack him 494 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 3: multiple times. He sustains. It seems not life threatening necessarily, 495 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 3: but pretty serious sounding injuries, like the beaver bites and 496 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 3: it bites hard. 497 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, like bites him like eleven times, and he's just 498 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 2: fighting it off, trying to get back in his truck 499 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 2: and drive off. I think he has to hit it 500 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 2: with a propane tank at some point. And yeah, it's 501 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 2: a violent account, though I have to stress that the 502 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 2: man telling the tale, he has a lot of sympathy 503 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 2: for the beaver, and at the end of it, he's like, 504 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 2: you know, it's my fault. I'm the one who I 505 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 2: thought I hit it, and I should never have gotten 506 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 2: out of the car. It was just it was just 507 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 2: out of the truck. It was just defending itself. But 508 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 2: it really drives home that, yes, if the beaver is cornered, 509 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 2: the beaver can be ferocious. Those teeth can dig into you, 510 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 2: and you can easily see how in another situation, if 511 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 2: the beaver had got him in just a few different places, 512 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 2: he could have easily bled to death before he was 513 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 2: able to drive himself to the hospital. I also like 514 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 2: how the individual in this story he's quick to add like, 515 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 2: I've been bit by just about every animal out there, 516 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 2: but I'd never been bit or i'd been attacked by it. 517 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 2: Just about every animal out there been attacked by a wolverine. 518 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 3: One imagines a moose, but never a beaver. Yeah, but 519 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 3: I am, like you said, impressed by he holds no 520 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 3: malice for the beaver even after the attack. I think 521 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 3: he just keeps saying he was on defense. 522 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. So so definitely sneep that out of you if 523 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 2: you're interested. But back to the Plenty document here. One 524 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 2: of the notes on this text points out that Plenty 525 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 2: derived this description from the physician Sextius, and the text 526 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 2: goes under remark on the vulgar error here and mentions 527 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 2: the work of the French naturalist Cuvier. 528 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 3: Quote. 529 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 2: Cuvier remarks that when the gland becomes distended with this secretion, 530 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 2: the animal may probably get rid of it by rubbing 531 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 2: the part against a stone or tree, and in this 532 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 2: way leave the cast door for the hunters, thus giving 533 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 2: rise to the vulgar error. Now, this is interesting because 534 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 2: going back to what we just discussed, it discussed disgusted. Sorry, 535 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 2: it's easy to get the too confused here. What we're 536 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 2: talking about here, what they're rubbing, would be the anal 537 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 2: gland secretions, not the cast door. But still, you can 538 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 2: imagine this situation where you'd have something distended from the 539 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 2: lower end of the beaver, something that may look from 540 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 2: a pair of glands, that may look like testicles. Here's 541 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 2: this beaver going up or rubbing itself against a stone 542 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 2: or a piece of a tree branch or something, and 543 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 2: then oh low and behold, whatever was protruding is gone. 544 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 2: This could be the thing that quote gives rise to 545 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 2: the vulgar error. 546 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 3: Yep, that does make sense, and it connects again to 547 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 3: the idea of the scent markings being territorial boundaries in nature, 548 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 3: you know, trying to ward off encroachments by other beavers 549 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 3: often so it makes a lot of sense that, say, 550 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 3: if a hunter is coming into a beaver's family group territory, 551 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 3: the hunter might see it marking. 552 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 2: Now Plenty also mentions the beaver again in the Natural 553 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: History when discussing the sea cow, which he says has 554 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 2: a similar level of intelligence and a similar alleged defense 555 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 2: capability quote. And this is talking about the sea cow. 556 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 2: It vomits forth its gall which is useful for many 557 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 2: purposes in medicine, also the rennet, which serves as a 558 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 2: remedy in epilepsy, for it is well aware that it 559 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 2: is hunted. For these substances. Theophrastus informs us that lizards 560 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 2: also cast their skins like the serpent, and instantly devour them, 561 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 2: thus depriving us of a powerful remedy for epilepsy. He 562 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 2: says too, that the bite of the lizard is fatal 563 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 2: in Greece but harmless in Italy. 564 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 3: Okay, now. 565 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 2: There is some merit to what Plenty is saying here, 566 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 2: generally because certain creatures are thought to leave behind parts 567 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 2: of their body or vomit something as a distractor for predators. 568 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 2: We also know very well that not just humans but 569 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 2: animal predators sometimes target specific organs of their prey. But 570 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 2: what he's reporting about the beaver here specifically is not true. 571 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 2: But I also find this interesting. This is a tangent 572 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 2: the idea that the lizard eats its skin after it 573 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 2: sheds it, despite us to be like, Nope, you're not 574 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 2: getting in your hands on my sweet skin when I mean, 575 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 2: in reality, we know that many lizards, including my son's gecko, 576 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 2: consumes its own sheddings because like, you're not going to 577 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 2: waste that good stuff. 578 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 3: Of course not, nature is full of disgusting efficiencies. But 579 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 3: to add a little bit to what you said a 580 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 3: minute ago, it is absolutely true that, yeah, there are 581 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 3: many animals that will self amputate when threatened to buy 582 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 3: a predator or under various stressful situations. This is a 583 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 3: strategy known as autotomy. A a u t o t 584 00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 3: o m y comes from the Greek for self cutting 585 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 3: or self severing. And yeah, you can often see it 586 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 3: like in lizards, where yes, if a predator, say, grabs 587 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 3: hold of their tail, the lizard will just release the 588 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 3: tail from their body. The predator can have it, which 589 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 3: has a double effect that's helpful for the lizard's survival. 590 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 3: For one thing, if it is grabbed by the tail 591 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 3: and then releases the tail, it has now escaped the 592 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 3: grasp of the predator. But the other thing is by 593 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 3: giving the predator a sort of consolation prize, it's almost 594 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 3: like compromising with them. It's like, well, you can have 595 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 3: this much, but you can't have my whole life. 596 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 2: It's also worth noting that I think, I mean, all 597 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 2: the examples of this that come to mind are essentially 598 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 2: ejections releases. They do not involve like active severing of 599 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 2: a creature's own body with its teeth or its claws 600 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 2: or that. 601 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 3: Sort of thing. Well, yeah, that's a good question. All 602 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 3: of the ones I can think of, having read of 603 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 3: read about before, yeah, just seem to be reject severe 604 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 3: often of like a tail or a leg or something, 605 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,719 Speaker 3: or a claw. But that is a good question. There 606 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 3: are there cases where the animal has to work on 607 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 3: its own autonomy, where it essentially must do the severing 608 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 3: itself with its teeth or claws or other or something 609 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:19,399 Speaker 3: something like that. 610 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, so if the beaver were to sever its own testicles, 611 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 2: it would be a really un alarming behavioral development. I 612 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 2: can't imagine a situation where this where a creature would 613 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 2: develop it like evolved to have this as an actual 614 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 2: feature of like dropping their testicles, like ejecting them, because 615 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 2: you know, even examples like certain scorpions that eject part 616 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 2: of their own tail and in doing so eject their 617 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 2: anus and then can no longer poop. As we've discussed 618 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 2: and then just kind of swell up with poop for 619 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 2: the rest of their lives. If memory serves, they can 620 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,760 Speaker 2: still reproduce. They're not giving up reproduction, that vital act 621 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 2: of any species in order to protect itself. 622 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 3: I did think of a possible counter example. I wish 623 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 3: I had read up on this deeply before we started recording, 624 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 3: But I believe there are cases where crabs will practice autonomy, 625 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,839 Speaker 3: and that will involve the like cutting or pulling of 626 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 3: the autonomized claw with the other claw, so that is active, 627 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 3: like the alleged beaver testicle biting. 628 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 2: Ah, we'll leave it to crabs to do it that way. 629 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe we'll have to come back to that in 630 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:30,760 Speaker 3: listener mail or something. 631 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 2: All right, now, coming back to kastorium. The origins of 632 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 2: human uses for this substance are, of course lost to time. 633 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 2: They emerge from somewhere in the vast period of time 634 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 2: during which our ancestors determined how best to process and 635 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 2: use an animal's body for resources that range from like 636 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 2: the really practical like meat and materials, things that are 637 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 2: more cultural like decorations and adornments, and also that often 638 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 2: mercy area of medicinal and magical properties. In a given substance, 639 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 2: but still we have some early sources to consider. Now, 640 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,720 Speaker 2: apparently the ancient archaeological evidence of castorium usage by humans 641 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 2: takes us back a good six thousand years. I was 642 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 2: looking at a paper titled Ancient Throwing Dart reveals first 643 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 2: archaeological evidence of Castorium published in the Journal of Archaeological 644 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 2: Science Reports. This was in June of twenty twenty one 645 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 2: by Hellwig at All and basically this throwing dart in 646 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 2: particular was found in the Yukon territory and it featured 647 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 2: a red orange residue that, upon analysis contained the various 648 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 2: organic ingredients and materials that matched up with beaver castorium. 649 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,240 Speaker 2: The authors point out that the substance was seemingly used 650 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 2: to toughen wood by ancient hunters, though baiting and medicinal 651 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 2: uses among later First Nations people were also recorded. The 652 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 2: Taltan people in particular were said to use it on 653 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 2: the heated wood of their bows and kept some on 654 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 2: their person in a small container of like wood or 655 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,800 Speaker 2: horn or bone. So it sounds like it was something 656 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 2: that was probably used to like to maintain your weapons, 657 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 2: to maintain your hunting implements. 658 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 3: That's a kind of oily treatment for the wood. 659 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which, you know, this to a certain extent, 660 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 2: I guess kind of reminds one of how the beavers 661 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 2: use it to help and use that special claw comb 662 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,280 Speaker 2: of theirs to comb it into their fur, in addition 663 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,479 Speaker 2: to using it to mark their scent. 664 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 3: But in the fur it's I believe it's supposed to 665 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 3: have some waterproofing purposes. 666 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Now, Sarah Lohman in a twenty seventeen article 667 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,720 Speaker 2: for Mental Flows, points it's a nice overview that points 668 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 2: to a number of different additional alleged uses for a gastorium. 669 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 2: For instance, I believe even in Roman times, it was 670 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 2: thought that you could use like a smoke inhalation based 671 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,760 Speaker 2: version of it for as an abortive medicine. Twelfth century 672 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 2: mystic Hildegarde von Bingen wrote that it could be powdered 673 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 2: and put into a wine to reduce fever, and then 674 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 2: in colonial America it was used for all sorts of stuff. 675 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 2: It was used as both the means of staving off sleep, 676 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 2: you know, sort of like your trucker speed, I guess, 677 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 2: but it was also used to encourage sleep, you know, 678 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 2: having a little insomnia, well her own castorium. It was 679 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,399 Speaker 2: used as a kind of brain booster. You know, you're 680 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 2: feeling like you need to up your game. Well, you 681 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 2: can't just grab some pills, some brain booster pills at 682 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,359 Speaker 2: the grocery store. You need to go get yourself some 683 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,399 Speaker 2: castorium from the local apothecary. 684 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:47,760 Speaker 3: They must have gotten really smart. 685 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was used to treat colic, to treat gout, 686 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 2: and to treat toothaches and earaches. 687 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 3: Now I got interested in the idea of the use 688 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 3: of castorium allegedly to treat pain because of something I read. Unfortunately, 689 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,880 Speaker 3: I was not able to find a very clear answer 690 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 3: on this. But what I read was that I was 691 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 3: looking at a book called Aspirin and the Salicylates by 692 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 3: KDE Rainsford, published in twenty thirteen. Quote. Salicylates have also 693 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 3: been identified in beaver castor ie of scent glands from 694 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 3: where it is secreted instead of the via the usual 695 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:34,799 Speaker 3: urinary route. The salicilits are probably metabolic transformation products from 696 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 3: vegetable sources in the diet of the beaver. So that 697 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 3: kind of interested me because salacillates are related to the 698 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 3: active ingredient in aspirin. Aspirin is, of course, it's a 699 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 3: nonsteroidal anti inflammatory drug often used to reduce fever and 700 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 3: treat pain inflammation, and this active ingredient, aspirin acetyl salicilic acid, 701 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,839 Speaker 3: is derived from a precursor found in the bark of 702 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,840 Speaker 3: the willow tree, which of course is something that beavers 703 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,239 Speaker 3: tend to chew and eat a lot of. So this 704 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 3: chemical relationship with the active ingredient in a common nonsteroidal 705 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:23,439 Speaker 3: anti inflammatory and pain reliever made me wonder if there 706 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,440 Speaker 3: could be some kind of connection there, like maybe this 707 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:32,320 Speaker 3: downstream animal product that's derived from this original plant molecule. 708 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 3: I wondered if that could be playing a role in 709 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 3: castorium actually having an anti inflammatory effect or treating pain. 710 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 3: But I could not find anything solid to back up 711 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 3: that connection. So I don't know if there's actually anything 712 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,359 Speaker 3: to that, but my curiosity is raised here. 713 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:58,319 Speaker 2: M Yeah, that's interesting. Now, outside of alleged medicinal properties, 714 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 2: it also has a long history of being used as 715 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,040 Speaker 2: a like a just for its scent and as a 716 00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 2: flavor enhancer. Loman notes, as others have noted in these 717 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 2: other sources, we've looked at that castorium, once processed you know, smoked, 718 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 2: were derived into a tincture. It can be used to 719 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 2: enhance flavors, particularly to enhance flavors of raspberry and strawberry 720 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 2: to replicate a kind of vanilla flavor, and it's also 721 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,240 Speaker 2: been used to give perfumes a sort of leathery odor. 722 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:31,800 Speaker 2: And I guess all this shouldn't be too surprising, again 723 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 2: realizing that the compounds in castorium are ultimately derived from 724 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 2: leaves and tree bark, so it shouldn't be completely shocking. 725 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 2: Now it's still technically an FDA approved natural flavoring in 726 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:49,319 Speaker 2: the United States, but it's rarely used and was far 727 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,760 Speaker 2: more commonly used as a flavor enhancer in the early 728 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 2: twentieth century. Now you've probably if you've looked around at 729 00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 2: anything about this, you may have come across this. There 730 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 2: is a curarently a Swedish spirit called Beaverhoot that uses 731 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 2: castorium translated as beaver shout. Some adventurous imbibers have sought 732 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,399 Speaker 2: it out. You'll find a number of essentially I guess 733 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 2: spirit and alcohol bloggers out there talking about their experiences 734 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,719 Speaker 2: with it or doing videos, some of these with kind 735 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 2: of crude titles, but I found a really nice one 736 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 2: on a blog from an individual named Dolly Jorgensen at 737 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:35,800 Speaker 2: Dolly dot jorgensenweb dot net, who has like a very nice, 738 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 2: historically driven post on the subject that is again far 739 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 2: classier than what I was seeing in other places online. 740 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 2: I just want to read a quick quote from Dolly 741 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 2: Jorgenson about trying out beaver shout quote. The first flavor 742 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,960 Speaker 2: was similar to oak cured whiskey, but then the musk 743 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 2: comes out. It's a hard to describe taste, but I 744 00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:01,319 Speaker 2: imagine that it's what traditional male musky colan would taste like. 745 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 2: It was not particularly strong, however, so it seemed pleasant 746 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 2: enough to consume most of the shot. An hour later, however, 747 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 2: I had a different opinion. Is the castorium sense started 748 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 2: to seep out through my skin. Literally, my pores started 749 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 2: to extrude the musky smell. 750 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 3: Okay, I mean that's a commercial basically. 751 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:27,440 Speaker 2: So I thought that was telling because the way the 752 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:31,319 Speaker 2: author describes it here, it's probably or at least in 753 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 2: this case, and I guess it depends on who's making 754 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 2: the liquor and so forth, but it sounds like it's 755 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,400 Speaker 2: more tolerable than you might imagine, but there being this 756 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,839 Speaker 2: kind of like after effect to consuming it. If any 757 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 2: adventurous sorts out there listening to this episode have experience 758 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 2: with beaver shout, do write in. We would love to 759 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,359 Speaker 2: hear from you. We'd love to hear your impression of this. 760 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:55,600 Speaker 3: You know, this reminds me of the time we talked 761 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 3: about the liquor that had a human toe in it 762 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,920 Speaker 3: and then we heard from multiple listeners said they drank it. 763 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,319 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. There was another blog post that I was 764 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,799 Speaker 2: looking at where the individual was like, Hey, it's kind 765 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,480 Speaker 2: of a hobby of mine to find various alcohols that 766 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:15,040 Speaker 2: have something organic in them, something some like part and 767 00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 2: then try it out. And you see this in different cultures, 768 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 2: like the idea is like some sort of alcohol and 769 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:20,480 Speaker 2: it has like, I don't know, a snake and it 770 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,239 Speaker 2: a scorpion in it, that sort of thing. But in 771 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 2: this case, the castor glands of a beaver are used 772 00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,759 Speaker 2: to create a unique spirit. I also looked around. I 773 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,279 Speaker 2: was like, maybe somebody's making a cocktail with this. Maybe 774 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,239 Speaker 2: there's a beaver shout cocktail out there. I could not 775 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,879 Speaker 2: find one. So if mixologists out there are figuring out 776 00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,280 Speaker 2: a way to sort of tame the flavor of beaver 777 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,399 Speaker 2: shout and like sort of manipulate it into a more 778 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 2: refined concoction. I have not found evidence of it of it. 779 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:54,520 Speaker 2: I went to imbub magazine and looked around for castorium 780 00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 2: and that nothing was coming up. And that's the one 781 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 2: place I would expect, like some profettional mixologist out there 782 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,640 Speaker 2: has has whipped this up, you know, just on just 783 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,440 Speaker 2: as a challenge. But I saw no evidence of it. 784 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 2: Maybe in Sweden, maybe it's like a special thing. You 785 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,520 Speaker 2: need to like look to Swedish high end bars to 786 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:13,880 Speaker 2: find this. 787 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,040 Speaker 3: Maybe maybe you got to ask beer get where to 788 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 3: find it. 789 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, well, I believe we're going to close 790 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,719 Speaker 2: out our two parter on the beaver here. But this 791 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,480 Speaker 2: was a fun one. This is one that initially I 792 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,440 Speaker 2: was thinking we would discuss these some of these images 793 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,879 Speaker 2: of the beaver in an episode that looked at other 794 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 2: inaccurate depictions of animals from various bestiaries. And then it 795 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,960 Speaker 2: quickly became obvious that this was an entire episode, and 796 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 2: then that it was actually a part one and a 797 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,600 Speaker 2: part two. I have so much more respect and admiration 798 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:49,120 Speaker 2: for the weird and wonderful beaver. 799 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,479 Speaker 3: Now, how can you not? I mean, if you don't, 800 00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:52,640 Speaker 3: they'll shake a stick at you. 801 00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all right, We're going to go and close 802 00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 2: it out here, but we'd love to hear from everyone 803 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,480 Speaker 2: out there if you have thoughts, experiences is concerning the 804 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:05,359 Speaker 2: beaver right in. If you want to check out other 805 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,040 Speaker 2: episodes we've done in the past, We've covered a lot 806 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:10,360 Speaker 2: of curious animals over the years, kind of composing our 807 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,239 Speaker 2: own festi area in many respects. On the Stuff to 808 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,440 Speaker 2: Blow Your Mind podcast, you can find core episodes of 809 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 2: that on Tuesdays and Thursdays in the Stuff to Blow 810 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,959 Speaker 2: Your Mind podcast feed. On Mondays we do listener mail. 811 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,520 Speaker 2: On Wednesday's we do a short form artifact or monster fact, 812 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:27,880 Speaker 2: and on Fridays we set aside most series concerns to 813 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,600 Speaker 2: just talk about a weird movie on Weird House Cinema. 814 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:35,080 Speaker 3: Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Pousway. If you 815 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,120 Speaker 3: would like to get in touch with us with feedback 816 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,080 Speaker 3: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic 817 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,200 Speaker 3: for the future, or just to say hello, you can 818 00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,120 Speaker 3: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 819 00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:53,600 Speaker 3: dot com. 820 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,600 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 821 00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,520 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Podcasts, 822 00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,360 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows,