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Speaker 1: Climb Stories with Nancy Grace James behind the Texas Rangers

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Speaker 1: and a viewing Samuel Little at the Palmdale Prison Unit, California,

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Speaker 1: GULD Corrections, Thursday May seventeen, twenty eighteen, at ten twenty

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Speaker 1: one am. When do you think is the first time

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Speaker 1: you hadn't killing? Nineteen nineteen seven? Did you remember the

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Speaker 1: first one? Years? Yeah? Cool, Nick, she has this happened?

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Speaker 1: You know? So how long after the first one before

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Speaker 1: you did the second one? About a month? They say,

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Speaker 1: you're going pretty quick? Yeah? Did you kill her? What happened? Same?

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Speaker 1: Same seeks? Damn kissing? I see what's to do? And

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Speaker 1: what's up? Who? Oh dear Lord in heaven. The FBI

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Speaker 1: now confirming that this man Samuel Little, the most prolific

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Speaker 1: you as serial killer in history. We have just gotten

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Speaker 1: our myths on spine chilling confessions and jailhouse sketches that

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Speaker 1: Little draws off his victim. Can you just imagine all

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Speaker 1: these families, the children of these women ninety three that

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Speaker 1: we know of, the husbands, the boyfriends, the moms and dads. Oh,

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Speaker 1: dear Lord, they think that their daughter just left and

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Speaker 1: never came back, just left them abandoned them. They never

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Speaker 1: knew what happened to mommy. They never knew what happened

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Speaker 1: to their daughter, their girlfriend, their lover, their fiancee. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us, with me truly an all star panel

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Speaker 1: medical examiner for the State of Florida, doctor Tim Gallagher,

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Speaker 1: forensics expert, founder of Beer Bones Consulting, Karen Smith, former

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Speaker 1: FBI special agent, host of Facebook watch series Curse of Acacor,

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Speaker 1: Bobby Chicone, and renowned psychoanalyst out of Hollywood, Bethany Marshall.

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Speaker 1: You know, first, I gotta go to levi page Crime

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Speaker 1: online dot Com investigative journalists where you can read about

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Speaker 1: this and all other breaking crime and justice needs. You

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Speaker 1: know what, Levi. As much as I want to hear

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Speaker 1: from you, I got to hear it from the horses mouth.

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Speaker 1: We have tapes of serial or Samuel Little listen in

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Speaker 1: the nightclub in New Orleans. We walked outside it and

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Speaker 1: she looked to see my car at Lincoln too. You

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Speaker 1: know that's a beautiful car too, So she had arm

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Speaker 1: in arm walk into the car. We got in, stopped

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Speaker 1: at the gas station. We went on the Highway ten

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Speaker 1: and going towards slide. Ill seen the sign sitoods socause

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Speaker 1: I took off the essen went and that short enough

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Speaker 1: was the road leading into the woods, and we went

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Speaker 1: in and park. So we finally got to where we

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Speaker 1: were going into the by by the river, a little

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Speaker 1: water being in the big the d of machine out

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Speaker 1: there in that little river, dragging dredged a crambled on

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Speaker 1: legs and pulled to the what you's the only one

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Speaker 1: I pulled bowing describe the location where she's wife. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I still award him on award in the thousands. Oh

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Speaker 1: dear lord. I know I keep saying, oh dear lord,

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Speaker 1: but just hearing him and hearing him laugh. Now, before

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Speaker 1: I had John David and Lucy the twins, I would

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Speaker 1: go very often with one of my best friend girls, Renee,

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Speaker 1: who sadly as a defense lawyer, but she and her

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Speaker 1: whole very extensive Cajun family, we would go visit them.

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Speaker 1: Drive all the way from inter city Atlanta after court,

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Speaker 1: right there to the Slydale area. I know, I think

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Speaker 1: exactly what he's talking about. Oh my Leavi page Crime

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Speaker 1: online dot Com investigative journalist. Did you hear him laughing? Yes?

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Speaker 1: And he's talking about them very casually. He's laughing, he

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Speaker 1: has a smile on his face. You would think that

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Speaker 1: he would be talking about a happy time in his life,

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Speaker 1: and the psychologist and the experts can talk about maybe

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Speaker 1: this was a happy time in his life. But it's

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Speaker 1: extremely disturbing to listen to him confess to all of

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Speaker 1: these murders. And we know that he's responsible confirmed for

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Speaker 1: about fifty murders out of about ninety three that he

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Speaker 1: has confessed to, that making him the most prolific serial

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Speaker 1: killer in the US, surpassing Gary Ridgeway, who was convicted

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Speaker 1: of forty nine murders in the state of Washington. Believe

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Speaker 1: I pays. You're just a found of information, aren't you.

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Speaker 1: I mean I could have done without hearing about Ridgeway

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Speaker 1: on top of Samuel Little, but you just had to

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Speaker 1: do it. Well, actually leave, You're right, Bethany Marshall. I

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Speaker 1: want to Jackie, if you don't mind, I want to

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Speaker 1: go back and play that first sound we heard of

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Speaker 1: Samuel Little. Listen as he described to Texas Rangers how

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Speaker 1: quote she wanted this to happen first? Yeah, she down,

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Speaker 1: What does this happen? You know? So how long after

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Speaker 1: the first one, before you did the second one about

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Speaker 1: a month. They said, you're going pretty quick. Yeah, did

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Speaker 1: you kill her? What happened, same same procedure. I kissed

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Speaker 1: him anything kiss I see what's to do and what

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Speaker 1: I could do To the second victim, he says, what

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Speaker 1: would you do if I choked to you? And he says,

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Speaker 1: she wanted this to happen. You know what, I usually

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Speaker 1: hear that in rape cases, Bethany Marshall, I don't usually

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Speaker 1: hear that in murder cases. Well. One of the things

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Speaker 1: we know about serial killers is that they have prolific

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Speaker 1: fantasy lives. They infuse the memory of the crime as

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Speaker 1: well as the crime itself with sexual excitement. That's one

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Speaker 1: of the ms of the crime is to choke look

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Speaker 1: at the victim's face to increase their sexual arousals. So

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Speaker 1: he's probably thought about these crimes so many times while

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Speaker 1: he's in jail. He's relived, he's changed their narrative. He

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Speaker 1: has all kinds of fantasies about what it meant to

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Speaker 1: the woman. So giving the interview not only is giving

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Speaker 1: the interview a form of reliving the crime because he's

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Speaker 1: enjoying talking about this, but He's changed the narrative again

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Speaker 1: and again to either minimize the severity of what he

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Speaker 1: did or to infuse it with more excitement, because you know,

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Speaker 1: all he's doing is sitting in jail with his fantasies.

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Speaker 1: That's all he has at this point. To doctor Tim Gallagher,

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Speaker 1: the medical examiner for the State al Florida, Doctor Gallagher,

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Speaker 1: did you hear what Bethany just said? I mean, just

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Speaker 1: the thought of him getting enjoyment as he watches the

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Speaker 1: victims strangle. What does a victim physically go through as

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Speaker 1: they are strangled? I mean, I can only assume they

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Speaker 1: know what's happening. It's not like you get a blow

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Speaker 1: to the head, or your throat a slice, or you

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Speaker 1: take a bullet and you're gone. That's it immediate here.

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Speaker 1: You know what's happening to you. You know you're dying. Well,

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Speaker 1: that's true, Nancy. You know, being manually strangled is a

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Speaker 1: very protractive thing and could take as long as three minute.

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Speaker 1: While you're being strangled, you then become consciously aware that

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Speaker 1: you are now fighting for your life, and then every

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Speaker 1: ounce of strength you have you're going to direct it

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Speaker 1: toward the person who's attacking you, until Finally you run

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Speaker 1: out of strength, your body is deprived of oxygen, and

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Speaker 1: then you cannot fight any longer. You become unconscious, and

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Speaker 1: then after a while you suffer irreparable brain damage and

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Speaker 1: that leads directly to your death afterwards, as you are

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Speaker 1: being deprived of oxygen. What would someone experience? I'll give

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Speaker 1: you a sugarcoated version. Do you remember the Alfred Hitchcock

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Speaker 1: movie where Grace Kelly, the husband of course, is trying

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Speaker 1: to kill her blah blah blah, and she is being

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Speaker 1: strangled with a stocking and she is I want to

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Speaker 1: say dial infra murder, But anyway, long story short, you

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Speaker 1: see her struggling and fighting to live, and slowly the

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Speaker 1: energy is emmy out of her. Having seen real strangulation victims,

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Speaker 1: manual or ligature strangulation victims, it's not as airbrushed as that,

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Speaker 1: But that scenario where at some point you can't fight anymore.

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Speaker 1: I've seen where people claw their face and their neck

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Speaker 1: deep gouges trying to get the ligature off their neck.

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Speaker 1: But what happens do you go? Does it start getting dark?

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Speaker 1: Do your lungs hurt? What happens? I know the particular

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Speaker 1: in your eye burst. Blood vessels in your eye do

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Speaker 1: burst and they form little hemorrhages that you can see

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Speaker 1: on the white parts of your eye. But you know

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Speaker 1: before that, you know, we've we've found flesh under the

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Speaker 1: fingernails of victims who were manually strangled, and it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's often their own flesh trying to get the hands

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Speaker 1: off of them, and it's quite often the flesh of

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Speaker 1: the sailor. You can get DNA from that and then identify,

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Speaker 1: you know, who was doing the strangulation. But typically as

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Speaker 1: your brain is deprived of oxygen, the first thing you

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Speaker 1: developed is a very focused tunnel vision and you are

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Speaker 1: looking directly at your attacker. And as the as the

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Speaker 1: peripheral vision starts to close off, you start to blackout,

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Speaker 1: and then you start to become unresponsive, and then after that,

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Speaker 1: death is soon to follow. Crime stories with Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: tell me about Mary and it's the opportunity popped up.

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Speaker 1: Take her to the store, excuting me, bringing them back

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Speaker 1: to the other farming. I went got our tunity celer

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Speaker 1: sea that's going down to a for a lot of

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Speaker 1: the called it gat the alligator Alli. It turns into

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Speaker 1: it runs into alligated allig right, but further out to

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Speaker 1: get further to get out of Miami, and you got vegetation.

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Speaker 1: And I've seen a rule going off the main rule

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Speaker 1: back into vegetation on this left side. I got it

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Speaker 1: out of the car, pulled out and drugger into the

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Speaker 1: rules back there and pulled them deeper into the path

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Speaker 1: a little badly somewhere. I don't know where it led

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Speaker 1: it too, but he running deeper into the undergroup. It's

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Speaker 1: like everglades like that. And he ran into some water running.

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Speaker 1: But before we got to the water, the earth was

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Speaker 1: much I tell loose, and she fell into it, face down.

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Speaker 1: And how far outside of Miami do you think you were?

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Speaker 1: About a mile? Two miles? What year did Marianne her

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Speaker 1: uh Shelby too, joining me from our special agent with

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Speaker 1: the FBI. Host of Facebook watch series Curse of Aqacore,

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Speaker 1: Bobby Chickun Bobby, what do you make of that? Well,

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Speaker 1: you can hear him, you can hear a little talk

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Speaker 1: about the locations he was choosing right this road that

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Speaker 1: ran off into into the everglades. He knew that these

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Speaker 1: were places that he could that his predatory behavior would

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Speaker 1: would be successful because it was off the beaten track

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Speaker 1: that was maybe nobody around, and so you can hear

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Speaker 1: his conscious thought as a predator. This is the mind

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Speaker 1: of a predator, and this is the same thing that

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Speaker 1: goes with any predator that's stalking its prey. It's it's

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Speaker 1: it's judging the location, it's knowing when to strike, and

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Speaker 1: those those factors. And it's fascinating to hear this predator

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Speaker 1: go through that mental exercise because we know what happens,

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Speaker 1: but to hear him verbalize it that you know, he's

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Speaker 1: in his mind analyzing the scene as he's as happening.

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Speaker 1: He knows there's a potential victim there. He's seeing the

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Speaker 1: road that leads off into a isolated place, and you

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Speaker 1: can hear him talking very matter of factly, doing that

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Speaker 1: analysion in his head that that you know, we always

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Speaker 1: talk about a predator going through, but it's it's chilling

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Speaker 1: when you can hear him, you know, literally articulate the

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Speaker 1: process that's going on in his brain and when he

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Speaker 1: sees a potential victim and he's analyzing whether he should strike.

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Speaker 1: We have obtained actual audio of the most prolific serial

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Speaker 1: killer in the US. We believe at least ninety three

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Speaker 1: women killed by him, usually the same m O, the

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Speaker 1: same modus operandi, method of operation. Are there more? Listen

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Speaker 1: to him in his own chilling words, Florida, Jordan and

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Speaker 1: who we are? He cooled down? Wow in the come

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Speaker 1: down and go to be called Coloria, go cross, come

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Speaker 1: back up? Do you need to go? I'm saying, is

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Speaker 1: how many in La Twain? I know the laws control

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Speaker 1: and always it was very tough in terms to keep

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Speaker 1: from getting busted, and I keep going so that it

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Speaker 1: would be missed. No women nurses and to the teach time,

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Speaker 1: You're like white girls are black girls? Bare? And did

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Speaker 1: you hear that he doesn't want to be prejudiced? And

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Speaker 1: who which women he picks to kill with me? Doctor

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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, Bobby Jicon, Karen Smith, doctor Tim Gallagher, and

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Speaker 1: Levi Page Karen Smith, forensics expert, founder of Bare Bones Consulting.

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Speaker 1: So far, the FBI is saying that they have confirmed

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Speaker 1: there were not mine confirmed fifty of his confessed ninety

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Speaker 1: three murders. How can they do that because some of

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Speaker 1: these murders date years back. They do. These date back

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Speaker 1: to nineteen sixty six. I believe was one of the

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Speaker 1: first ones. When he was starting to offend and do

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Speaker 1: armed robberies and things like that. So it's not that

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Speaker 1: we have DNA, it's not that we have the direct evidence.

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Speaker 1: But what's remarkable about Samuel Little, as vile as he is,

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Speaker 1: is his memory. This man has detailed these murders, the

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Speaker 1: location where he was, the timing, He described the clothing,

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Speaker 1: He described things that he got busted for when he

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Speaker 1: was there, shoplifting and other things that there are records of.

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Speaker 1: So they can go back, maybe talked to surviving family members,

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Speaker 1: describe these women, show them drawings that Samuel Little has done,

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Speaker 1: and make identifications that way. So it's not that they

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Speaker 1: have the direct DNA or a fingerprint or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: What they have is the timeline, his descriptions, the information,

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Speaker 1: and they went from there to say that, yeah, they're

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Speaker 1: confident that these fifty belong to Samuel Little. Right now,

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Speaker 1: the FBI desperately asking for your help to identify so

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Speaker 1: many of the ninety three alleged victims of serial killer

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Speaker 1: Samuel Little, including one woman he murdered in Laurel Listen.

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Speaker 1: Samuel Little says he strangled ninety three people in nineteen

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Speaker 1: States between nineteen seventy and two thousand and five. The

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Speaker 1: seventy nine year old is in California serving multiple life

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Speaker 1: sentences and just recently began admitting to murders investigators believe

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Speaker 1: are credible. I could truly say Samuel Little is a

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Speaker 1: true monster. He's every woman ultimate nightmare. One of his

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Speaker 1: alleged murders happened in Laurel in nineteen seventy two. Little

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Speaker 1: admitted to picking up the victim's summer at a Washington,

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Speaker 1: DC bus station. Later drove her to a wooded area

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Speaker 1: where Little said they had sex and he strangled her.

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Speaker 1: He described it when I interviewed him in a way

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Speaker 1: where he was actually excited about describing how he did.

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Speaker 1: He's this murder. A hunter found her body months later.

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Speaker 1: He described a victim and the way that the medical

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Speaker 1: examined to described their matched. Everything matched. Investigators gave Little

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Speaker 1: supplies to draw his victims. When sixty Minutes got to

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Speaker 1: look this weekend. There and the bottom left is a

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Speaker 1: Jane Doe from Prince George's County. A ficial. She'll say

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Speaker 1: she was between twenty and twenty five years old and

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Speaker 1: possibly originally from Massachusetts. Little parade on vulnerable women across

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Speaker 1: the country, as he told CBS News by phone, don't

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Speaker 1: break another person. They did well, I'd like you to

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Speaker 1: do stop. They go only one in the world, and

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Speaker 1: that's not of honor. That is a curse. The FBI

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Speaker 1: is now asking for help in matching confessions to victims,

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Speaker 1: including that Jane Doe found in Laurel forty seven years ago.

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Speaker 1: You're hearing our friends there at wjay Z. The FBI

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Speaker 1: desperate to identify all of these women, remember their families.

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Speaker 1: Still many of them think Mommy just abandoned them, when

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Speaker 1: in reality, this devil from hell stalked and murdered them.

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Speaker 1: To doctor Bethany Marshall joining us out of la Doctor Bethany,

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Speaker 1: did you hear what the FBI agent said? He said

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Speaker 1: that Samuel Little gets excited in the retelling of the murders.

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Speaker 1: So sick Nancy. I think it's important for our listeners

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Speaker 1: to understand the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath,

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Speaker 1: a psychopath serial killer. The sociopath is they're parasitic, they

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Speaker 1: lack the conscience, their line conning, manipulativeness. When you get

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Speaker 1: to the point of psychopath, there's the addition of cruelty

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Speaker 1: in order to enhance their sexual pleasure. That is the difference.

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Speaker 1: So these serial killers and Samuel Little in particular, in

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Speaker 1: order to get off sexually, he would prey on vulnerable women,

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Speaker 1: He would have sex with them, he would manually strangulate them,

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Speaker 1: all for the purpose of sexual arousals. That is the

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Speaker 1: m right there and again. Because he's sitting in jail

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Speaker 1: with nothing else to do but draw these pictures, which

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Speaker 1: is probably like his jailhouse porn. He is excited and

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Speaker 1: the retelling of the story because that is all he has.

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Speaker 1: And Karen mentioned how he has this prolific memory for detail.

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Speaker 1: I mean he remembers the car he drove, the underbrush,

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Speaker 1: the size of a woman's sighs, what age she is.

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Speaker 1: This is a man who is so obsessed and preoccupied

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Speaker 1: with his history of killing that he relives at every

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Speaker 1: day and if he was in society, he would offend

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Speaker 1: again and again. Crime stories with Nancy Grace, we are

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Speaker 1: talking about Samuel Little, the most prolific u as serial

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Speaker 1: killer in history. Take a listen as Samuel Little confesses

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Speaker 1: to murdering as he says a quote girl in northern

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Speaker 1: Kentucky after a music festival. We got to Covington, and

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Speaker 1: then we continued through Covington and there was a park

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Speaker 1: that they were having a festival there, and she heard

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Speaker 1: the music and shot offered the band in there, and

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Speaker 1: by her being a heavy type and the shell, he

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Speaker 1: wanted to get to that. But the police came on

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Speaker 1: and peeked into in a car room. You really wanted

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Speaker 1: to be moved out of it. So we instid of

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Speaker 1: going in there. I took her otherway around, winding around.

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Speaker 1: They got hills out in Kentucky, and the road winds

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Speaker 1: and around on the hills. I seen a little short

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Speaker 1: road going oh the hill, and in the up top

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Speaker 1: there was vegetation. What no island that? And so I

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Speaker 1: pulled up in there and concealed with the car and

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Speaker 1: in the little vegetation up there on top of hill.

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Speaker 1: So tell me about this this road that goes up

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Speaker 1: the hill. What kind of road is it? Was? It

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Speaker 1: was like a dirt rule, Okay, was like dirt. The

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Speaker 1: grass was drawing in the middle between two tracks. When

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Speaker 1: I've left for up in there in that little road

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Speaker 1: up there on the side of the road, as she

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Speaker 1: would let partially conceal, but vegetation left for there you

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Speaker 1: are hearing the description of a murder of a quote

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Speaker 1: girl in northern Kentucky and that was listening to music

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Speaker 1: at a music festival in a park. I don't get

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Speaker 1: it to Bobby to count from a special agent with

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Speaker 1: the FBI host a Facebook watch series Curse of Aqacre, Bobby,

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Speaker 1: why such detail? Is he proud or you know what?

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Speaker 1: He doesn't. He lacks the empathy that we would normally say,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, how can he do that? Right? Because

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Speaker 1: you to recall it, So yes, in a way he

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Speaker 1: is proud, But in a way, this is just another

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Speaker 1: regular memory for him that you and I would recall

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Speaker 1: a birthday party or an anniversary in the past, So

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Speaker 1: it's not you know, he does have a remarkable memory,

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Speaker 1: and he does get some satisfaction, although at his ages

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Speaker 1: less than it was when he was younger, in recalling

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Speaker 1: some of these crimes. But in this case, the Texas

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Speaker 1: ranger he's talking to Holland developed such an incredible rapport

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Speaker 1: with him that he's actually wanting to help the detective

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Speaker 1: bring closure to some of the families, and that's what

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Speaker 1: he's been doing. He's been completely cooperating with the interviews

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Speaker 1: since the ranger. Holland established that relationship, and you hear

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Speaker 1: him again talk about you know, this is a situation

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Speaker 1: he just explained where the police came up to his

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Speaker 1: car and shoot him away. He was parked somewhere with

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Speaker 1: his next victim that he wasn't supposed to be and

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Speaker 1: so they shoot him away and he just drove on

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Speaker 1: now instead of letting her out of a car in

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Speaker 1: a panic because the police just were there, he actually

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Speaker 1: drove and he immediately started looking for hills and vegetation

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Speaker 1: that as he said, conceal his car. This is a

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Speaker 1: this is a predatory machine. He's going through the analysis

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Speaker 1: right after leaving the police with the victim in his car,

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Speaker 1: of looking for a place where he can carry out

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Speaker 1: his crime. So it's really a fascinating look into the

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Speaker 1: mind of a predator where he's just the police didn't

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Speaker 1: even phase him. The police coming up to his car

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Speaker 1: with the victim's car didn't even phase him, and he

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Speaker 1: immediately started to analyze the surroundings on where he could

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Speaker 1: carry out his attack. Bobby should come with a former

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Speaker 1: FBI to doctor Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the State

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Speaker 1: of Florida. Doctor Gallagher, I was earlier asking Karen Smith

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Speaker 1: with Beer Buns Consulting about how the FBI has been

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Speaker 1: able to confirm at least fifty of these alleged ninety

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Speaker 1: three murders. Doctor Gallagher, what type of bodily evidence would

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Speaker 1: there be this much later, I mean years have passed.

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Speaker 1: Can you go back to a body, even if after

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Speaker 1: it's been buried, or can you observe tissue at the time.

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Speaker 1: How can they connect him to many of these women? Well,

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Speaker 1: there are several ways we can do it. Number one

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Speaker 1: would be dental records. If they had any dental records

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Speaker 1: that are still available, we could use those for identification,

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Speaker 1: you know. And the other thing is familial DNA. You know,

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Speaker 1: if there are any members of the family that are left,

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Speaker 1: DNA can still be extracted from the bones of the

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Speaker 1: victim or from the teeth of the victim, and that

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Speaker 1: DNA could be analyzed familial, familial and or of the victim,

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Speaker 1: which would give us a good presumptive identification. I know

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Speaker 1: we can id the victim, and I'm trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out how to connect him to our murder. I guess

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Speaker 1: one way, Karen Smith Beer Bones Consulting would be as

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Speaker 1: doctor Gallagher is saying to put his Samuel Little's DNA

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Speaker 1: into the DNA databank CODUS and see how many women

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Speaker 1: he connects two over the years, because obviously he raped, sodomize,

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Speaker 1: or perform some other sex act on probably all of

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Speaker 1: them during this triangulation, before, during, or after. But what

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Speaker 1: other evidence could we look for beside DNA? Here in

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Speaker 1: Smith right, there is part of CODUS, which is the

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Speaker 1: combined DNA and X system. One of those parts is

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Speaker 1: the forensic database that connects two or more crimes that

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Speaker 1: are that are connected, and then they can go into

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Speaker 1: the offender database and make a match that way, which

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Speaker 1: is what they've been doing. But here's the thing. If

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Speaker 1: it's been thirty forty years, Nancy, if you find any

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Speaker 1: skeletal remains, you know you're you're going to be dealing

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Speaker 1: with with dental records. You're going to be dealing with

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Speaker 1: with DNA from bones and things like that. But the

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Speaker 1: one thing that you may be able to find, if

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Speaker 1: they're very lucky, are pieces of cloth and clothing that

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Speaker 1: have not been dragged off, that have not decomposed of

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Speaker 1: the point of being unable to identify that piece of clothing.

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Speaker 1: Even if it's a scrap. He describes one victim as

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Speaker 1: sparing a cream and red colored skirt, and if there's

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Speaker 1: a small shard of that left, that may be able

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Speaker 1: to also help identify the victim. So you're dealing with

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Speaker 1: jewelry that doesn't go away, things like that ear rings,

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Speaker 1: necklace's rings that may be able to be found at

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Speaker 1: the location. If they're able to locate these bodies. How

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Speaker 1: did Texas Ranger James Holland get this serial killer to confess?

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Speaker 1: The ranger says, Little was a cunning killer, sized up

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Speaker 1: his victims and his surroundings. The first thing I picked

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Speaker 1: up on is how wicked smart he was. The sky smarke, Oh,

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Speaker 1: like genius. How do you say that? Oh? Well, number one,

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Speaker 1: you know the photographic memory, his memory for details, and

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Speaker 1: you're like, Sammy, tell me what's around her. There's three

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Speaker 1: tombstones over there, there's a Collechey road drive down a

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Speaker 1: quarter mile. There's a white Baptist church that needs to

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Speaker 1: be whitewashed. Phenomenal, So how do you reach a serial killer?

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Speaker 1: How do you get them to talk? Do you avoid

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Speaker 1: the things that normally work for investigators? What do you

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Speaker 1: mean by that? Do you avoid things like you know, remorse,

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Speaker 1: enclosure for the family because they don't have remorse and

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Speaker 1: they don't care about closure. No, No, it doesn't appeal

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Speaker 1: to them at all. I mean, you're asking them to

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Speaker 1: open up their soul to the things that are more

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Speaker 1: intimate to them than anything in life. Why should they

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Speaker 1: do that with you? And that's what you're working for,

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Speaker 1: real friendly, she she will laughing. Well, with Sammy, there's

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Speaker 1: indications of visualization of when he's thinking about a crime scene,

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Speaker 1: he'll start stroking his face and as he's starting to

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Speaker 1: picture a victim, you'll see him look out and up

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Speaker 1: and you can tell he has this revolving carousel of

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Speaker 1: victims and it's just spinning and he's waiting for it

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Speaker 1: to stop at the one that he wants to talk

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Speaker 1: about to Bobby Chico, former FBI special agent, host of

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00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: Facebook watch series Curse of Acricord. Bobby, how do you

428
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: get someone like Samuel Little to tell at all? Well,

429
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: in this case, it was very interesting that the Texas

430
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: Ranger Holland, came from Texas to Los Angeles to interview

431
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: him in jail. He spoke to the LAPD detectives who

432
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: had arrested Samuel Little, and they told him they had

433
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: a terrible relationship with him. He wasn't talking to them,

434
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: he didn't like them, but they told Holland to use that.

435
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: In other words, Holland went in and he kind of

436
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: pretended he didn't like the LAPD and that the lad

437
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 1: probably treated Little wrongly and things like that. So we

438
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: played into what the LAPD officers and detectives were telling

439
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: them about Little, and he basically went in there and

440
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: he befriended Little, and he didn't judge him, and he

441
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: went in there a very matter of factly, tell me

442
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: about this, tell me about that, without ever expressing the

443
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: horror that we would normally feel when someone is detailing

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00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: these things to you. He had to keep basically a

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00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: poker face on, but he basically used in the very

446
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: beginning his dislike for the LAPD, and Holland went in

447
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: there with a feigned similar dislike of the LAPD, and

448
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: he found that one piece of common ground initially that

449
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: he needed to establish that rapport, and everything else in

450
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: this case flowed out of that rapport. This really does

451
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: boil down to a very good investigator in Texas Ranger

452
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: teaming up with two FBI analysts from ViCAP, which is

453
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: our Violent Criminal Engine Program, and they gave him all

454
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: the similar murders across the country that Little may have done,

455
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: and Holland was able to go through those and you

456
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: hear him say, tell me about northern Kentucky, and Samuel

457
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: Little goes into what happened in northern Kentucky. Holland knew

458
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: about northern Kentucky because the ViCAP analysts told him we

459
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: found something very similar in Kentucky that fits this particular

460
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: m So it was a great teamwork. But it really

461
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: comes down to the rapport that Holland established with Little

462
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: very early on. In fact, in their very first meeting

463
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, we are talking about Samuel Little,

464
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: the most prolific you as serial killer in history. Take

465
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: a listen to what Samuel Little says about Little Rock, Arkansas.

466
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: Oh man, I loved I forget her name, oh here,

467
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: I think was Ruth Okay. She was a heavy set

468
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: being yellow girl and had buck team. He had a

469
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: gap tweensy belly wood and she she was less the

470
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: honeycotters game, and she had like her hair was not

471
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: really long. I called Ny think she was she was

472
00:31:55,080 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: but five something how much think coast to two hundred

473
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: by one hundred and seventy pretty pretty big girl. Yeah,

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00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: Now where did you meet her at? Okay? He dined

475
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: in the rough crackhouse. Was they were heard by six

476
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: other girls. Was setting on the porch do seven cracking there.

477
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,160
Speaker 1: I stopped to go there. I've seen a girl. That's

478
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:26,719
Speaker 1: why I stopped. We stayed Gilla two days or who

479
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 1: I think about three days. We was going shop lifting,

480
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: We went to sears, we went to a course and

481
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: that's where I got busted. They took me to jail,

482
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: and she went and stayed in the car and the

483
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: magic of Crowers, I guess he got tired of her

484
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: land on the Das property. In that car he called

485
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: the pold the station where I was at in north

486
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 1: northzo To dropped so you can come down and get

487
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: this girl and card him the cover and loose. So

488
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 1: we was headed towards with that place where wal marts

489
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: and the original stove ben. I whipped off the rule

490
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: and back into the little woods. It was a corn

491
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: field back there. I pulled through it and on us

492
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: side with cornfield with a little trash pole. My part

493
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: of car face it out where I could see anybody

494
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: coming in. So I pulled her out of that car.

495
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: She's too big for me to car carry, so I

496
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: just pulled out of car. Later on that trash that

497
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: let there, So it was like a cornstalt pole was yeah,

498
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: a bunch of cornstocks. What could you see from there?

499
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: I could see the highway and in the woods is

500
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: that way but it's right outside. Was a little of

501
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: ten Mouth from north little rocket ten miles. How brazen

502
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: to Bethany Marshall psycho Alice joining me from La. He

503
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: could see the highway from where he was. He basically

504
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 1: left her dead body near a highway, true, behind some cornstalks,

505
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,720
Speaker 1: but by the highway. Did you hear when he said,

506
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: quote I loved her, but he killed her, and that

507
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 1: she had buck teeth with a little gap, and that

508
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: she had honeycolored skin, Nancy, you can hear the whole

509
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 1: offending pattern in how he tells the story. He starts

510
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 1: with her appearance, which is obviously what the Texas Ranger

511
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: asked him about. He wanted a description. But you know

512
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 1: you have that the honeycolored skin, the medium hair, the

513
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: buck teeth, the little gap. So this is what he's doing.

514
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: He's trolling for victims and he's looking at their appearance.

515
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 1: He probably has a type that he likes. Next, he

516
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 1: commits some kind other petty crime for what purpose, I

517
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: don't know, at a Kroger's, at a grocery store. Then

518
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: he starts looking for a place to secrete the body,

519
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 1: and there are so many mentions of underbrush shura, it's

520
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 1: like a muddy swamp or the vegetation in the area

521
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: is very important to him. Going out onto a lonely

522
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: road and then facing back towards the highway. It would

523
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: be interesting to know, like why he chose to do that.

524
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,359
Speaker 1: Was there something sort of almost exhibitionistic about that, as

525
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,959
Speaker 1: if he's killing this woman while at the same time

526
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: looking down on society. You know, I think there's something there.

527
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that the Texas Ranger would be interested

528
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: in that aspect of it, but I think it's really

529
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:49,240
Speaker 1: fascinating and I think it could contribute to our common

530
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: knowledge of serial killers, why they pick certain locations and

531
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: why they offend in the particular ways that they do.

532
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: To talk to Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the State

533
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: of Florida, When a body is left out in the elements.

534
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: Does it decompose much more quickly than if it was

535
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: inside of a structure. Absolutely, And the reason why that

536
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: is is because the big variation in temperature decomposition is

537
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 1: highly variable on the temperature and the external environment. In

538
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,280
Speaker 1: the outside, the sun is beating down on the body.

539
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: There are predatory animals, There are scavenger insects that help

540
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: in the acceleration of decomposition. We often find many pounds

541
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: of maggots and beetles and worms inside of these bodies

542
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 1: when they decompose, and that accelerates the decomposition. You know,

543
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 1: after watching and listening to hours of this guy confessing

544
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: to one murder after the next, it's like he's describing

545
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: going on dates with these women. He knows. One is

546
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: named Ruth. He says he loved her. He seems attached

547
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: to her buck teeth and a little gap between the

548
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:01,320
Speaker 1: front two teeth. Bobby to comb O, host of Facebook

549
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: watch series Curse of Aquacre, I noticed he gets more

550
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: and more animated and into it and excited as he

551
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 1: describes how he strangles his victims. At one point, he says,

552
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: she was fighting for her life and I'm fighting for

553
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: my pleasure. Yeah, and this is this is a hallmark

554
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: of a sexual sadist, which he probably was. And this

555
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,240
Speaker 1: is what doctor Marshall described earlier, where he's deriving sexual

556
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: pleasure out of her fear, anxiety, and pain. And so

557
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: you know, I wouldn't be surprised and we'll never know, um,

558
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: but I wouldn't be surprised if some of these manual

559
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: strangulations didn't end in death the first time. In other words,

560
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: he brings him to the edge of death and then

561
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: they start, He allows him to start breathing again, and

562
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: then he repeats, he repeats the act. So the the

563
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 1: sexual gratification that a sexual statist will achieve is not

564
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: from the sex act itself, but it's actually the lead up.

565
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 1: And of course, now that he's able to talk about

566
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,319
Speaker 1: it again, he's we living that and he's he's he's

567
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: deriving pleasure from it again. So that's that's what you're

568
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: hearing in his voice. You're hearing about that satisfaction and

569
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: that pleasure that he's getting recalling these these many horrific crimes.

570
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: You know, decades later. Take a listen to what this

571
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: prolific serial killer, Samuel Little says about Vegas. She was

572
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: gonna thin dark skin, about forty years old when she

573
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 1: got there, Curson, I thank you drug d because she

574
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 1: would be out there. How cold was she? She was

575
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:37,760
Speaker 1: about five five five three and she waited about hunting

576
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: Town twenty What about her? Did you know the bloodcame?

577
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: She's ever the son? She called him over it. He

578
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: came over ship my hand and everything. Yet now old

579
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: was he? He was about twenty or about nineteen twenty?

580
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 1: Blackmail or black nil? And where were you at on

581
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 1: your mater who was on a vue? Jackson? Where do

582
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: you eventually take her body too? Here's what Californa. So

583
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 1: that drove out of low things. And I've seen a

584
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: motail rule leading up to the rutail. You know, there's

585
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: a lot of bushes and impressions us beside the rule

586
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 1: before you got to that motil. That's what pull of

587
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,399
Speaker 1: her bite out and rolling down there. And I heard

588
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: a secondary role of noise that meant she was still

589
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: rolling to doctor Bethany Marshall, Bobby Chacomb, Karen Smith, doctor

590
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: Tim Gallagher, and Levi Page. The FBI is still begging

591
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: the public to help identify these victims and bring some

592
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 1: peace to their long abandoned families. Can you even imagine

593
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: that kind of pain? Go to crime online dot Com,

594
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: where you can see not only see and hear Samuel

595
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 1: Little's confessions and allies and judging for yourself, but also

596
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 1: links to help identify these women. We now know at

597
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: least ninety three women terrorized, sexually assaulted, and murdered. We

598
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 1: wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace crime story signing off

599
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 1: goodbye friend,