1 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you 8 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is 9 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with 10 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much 11 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: for joining me for session four eleven of the Therapy 12 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our conversation 13 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 1: afterword from our sponsors. Today, we're joined by the brilliant 14 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:22,639 Speaker 1: and unapologetically authentic doctor Donna Oriowo, License Clinical social Worker, 15 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: certified sex and relationship therapist, and author of the bold 16 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: new book Drink Water and Mind Your Business. Known for 17 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: her unique blend of cultural insight, therapeutic expertise, and straight 18 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: no chaser delivery, Doctor Oriowo returns to the show to 19 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: share the inspiration behind her new work and why it's 20 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: a necessary read for black women navigating life, relationships and 21 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: radical self care. We're diving into what it really means 22 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: to protect your peace, create boundaries without guilt, and center 23 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: yourself in a world that often demands your labor but 24 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: denies your rest. If you've struggled with putting yourself first 25 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: or felt drained from care too much, this conversation. 26 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 2: Is for you. 27 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please 28 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag TVG 29 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: in Session, or join us over in our Patreon channel 30 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: To talk more about the episode. You can join us 31 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com. Here's our conversation, 32 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: Doctor Orioll, welcome back. We're so happy to have you 33 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: back joining us here on the podcast. 34 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 35 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: Yes, this is a very special celebration. I feel like 36 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: we've had so many conversations here, but no conversations about 37 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 1: your brand new book. Drink water and mind your business, 38 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: and so I love to hear just how you're feeling. 39 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: You know, I think the launch week, and like the 40 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: weeks leading up to launch can be a lot going 41 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: on for authors. So how are you feeling? How you 42 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: taking care of yourself. 43 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 2: Heart palpitations, I might be dying, I don't know. I 44 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 2: don't know. And also I'm still super excited at the 45 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 2: same time. So I like to say I'm exhilarated because 46 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 2: I feel like it adds in that I'm scared to 47 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: tell with the I'm excited. 48 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. I always think it's an interesting time, I think, 49 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: especially when therapists release books, because you know, I think 50 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: we know all the things right, like all the self talk, 51 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: all the you know whatever, but I think it's still 52 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: very different in practice. So what kinds of things have 53 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: you been having to challenge yourself on as a therapist 54 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 1: releasing a book? 55 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 2: The boundaries, specifically the boundaries that I feel like at 56 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 2: this point, it has been said repeatedly, do not look 57 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,119 Speaker 2: at the reviews. It has been told to me time 58 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: and time again. So right now I am working on 59 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 2: heeding that advice and not looking at the reviews. I'm 60 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: trying to mind my business. The reviewser for people who 61 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: are trying to figure out if they should read or 62 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 2: buy this thing. I am not there, which means I 63 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: have no business and the review so I'm working on 64 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 2: mine in my business and drinking my water. 65 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. Yeah, yeah, that's a very good idea. I 66 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: definitely encourage you to heed that as well. So you know, 67 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: this is your first book is about self esteem, but 68 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: you have a previous work book called Cocoa Butter and 69 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: Hair Grease, all about texturism, and so I think a 70 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: lot of people would have assumed that, like your first 71 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: larger book would have been like a continuation of that line, 72 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: But this one, I think is in connection with that, 73 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: but not like the same thing. So can you talk 74 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: about why you made the decision to have the self 75 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: esteem be focus of your first book. 76 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 2: There were a couple of things. One, the idea to 77 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: even write the book was not mine. I was approached 78 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 2: by a publisher. They were like, hey, you do a 79 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,119 Speaker 2: really great job and talking about this thing. You should 80 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 2: write a book, And I was just like, oh, duh, 81 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 2: of course I should. So I wrote a book. But also, 82 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 2: colorism in texturism feel so niche, and I think that 83 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 2: people are consistently disconnecting it from self esteem somehow, or 84 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 2: only seeing self esteem in a very specific way. So 85 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 2: it made more sense to me to let's bring it 86 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 2: back to the original problem. This encompasses the other, and 87 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: then let's have a further conversation from here. So I 88 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 2: didn't want to start with colorism and texturism, if only 89 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 2: because some people don't see themselves as having an issue here, 90 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 2: though I do talk about it in the book. I 91 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 2: want to say is in chapter four what We're not 92 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 2: Gonna Do? 93 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: Got it? The title I think is very tongue in 94 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: cheat Drink water and mind your business. But can you 95 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: tell me, like what those concepts mean? So drinking water 96 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: and minding your business, what does that mean in terms 97 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: of like healing and self maintenance? 98 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 2: Water is the foundation of all life. Almost all living 99 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 2: things require some level of water. I have it on 100 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 2: good authority that a lot of our planet is water. 101 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: So to me, drinking water feels very foundational. And from 102 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 2: a sexuality standpoint, if you're actually drinking your water, you're 103 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 2: more likely to have stronger orgasms, right, You're more likely 104 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 2: to be able to have the movement in your body 105 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 2: that is required for arousal and for orgasm, and then 106 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 2: that beautiful resolution it's more likely to happen if you're hydrated. Also, 107 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 2: mental health wise, the dehydrated brain can look like depressed brain, 108 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 2: can look like anxious brain. So if you actually are 109 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 2: drinking your water, You're doing everything that you need to 110 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 2: be doing for your body, just in general. But then 111 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 2: in adding in the mind your business. I think of 112 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 2: it in terms of the way my mama would use it, 113 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 2: right fre'cial front mind yourself, which feels a lot different 114 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 2: than just the way that we might use it as 115 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 2: a weapon. Be like, mind your business, don't do what 116 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 2: you need to go do. But I mean, ultimately it 117 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,679 Speaker 2: still ends up being about are you minding your business? 118 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 2: Are you paying attention to your stuff? Are you taking 119 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 2: a look at what's involved in it and how you 120 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 2: would like to move forward with what's involved. So for me, 121 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:07,799 Speaker 2: drinking water and mining your business. If we start there, 122 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 2: where can't we go? 123 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: Very novel approach, but so foundational As you mentioned, right, 124 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: let's just start at the basics here. Let's just stop 125 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: with all the complex stuff and just start at the 126 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: basic Yeah. Yeah, So one of the arguments that you 127 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: make in the book is that self esteem has been 128 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: gate kept by whiteness. Can you say a little bit 129 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: more about that and why you feel like self esteem 130 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: as it relates to black women has not been more 131 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: of a conversation. I think that the problem has been 132 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: very much along the lines of if you don't have 133 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: good self esteem, it's your problem. You haven't loved yourself enough, 134 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: you haven't liked yourself enough, you haven't done all the. 135 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 2: Work that you needed to do, and who going to 136 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 2: help you if not you? It's if you don't have 137 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: good self esteem, it's your problem, right, So we say 138 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 2: that it's your fault, that if it's low, you failed, 139 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 2: that you didn't like yourself, that you didn't care for 140 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 2: yourself enough, that you didn't show up enough. The problem 141 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: for me then is that no one is looking at 142 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: the world around us or acknowledging how self esteem was 143 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 2: never actually self taught. You learn it from the people 144 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 2: who are around you. Your self esteem is not created 145 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 2: in a bubble. It was created with supremacy culture in mind. Parents, grandparents, 146 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: and even our great grandparents were also subjected to it, 147 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 2: which means that what they taught us was already in 148 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 2: many ways through this lens of supremacy culture. So if 149 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 2: we're going to disrupt the narrative, if we're going to 150 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 2: live a life of pleasure on purpose, then it will 151 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 2: require us to actually divest from the messages that don't 152 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 2: belong to us and to build a more affirming community 153 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 2: within ourselves, yes, but also with each other, because self 154 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 2: esteem is not a solo thing. I actually think of 155 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 2: it as a community failure. 156 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: You can say more about that, because I think that 157 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: is definitely a disruption from what we were taught in 158 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: grad school, right what self esteem is, which is of 159 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: course why you wrote this book, right, But can you 160 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 1: say more about like how it is actually the community's 161 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: jobs you and feel self esteem. 162 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:06,199 Speaker 2: I recently had finished rereading your book sister Hood Heels 163 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 2: and the things you said, and I was just like, see, 164 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 2: that's all like I'm saying. I was just like see. 165 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 2: I was turning to my husband, like, look, see this 166 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 2: thing here. Like friendships, our relationships with each other are 167 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 2: so foundational. But if the idea is that you should 168 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 2: do it on your own, that's a very white supremacist notion. 169 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 2: That doesn't make any actual sense. Not when we are 170 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: keeping in mind that you don't give birth to yourself 171 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 2: and you don't raise yourself. Someone else does it. So 172 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,559 Speaker 2: much of the way that we have learned to see 173 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 2: and sit with ourselves, we learn from how other people 174 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 2: saw and sat with us, and then we repeat it. 175 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 2: People are staying in relationships that they ain't got no 176 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 2: business in. People have a self talk that makes me 177 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 2: wanting to get into a tussle with them because I'm like, 178 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 2: you're not going to talk to my friend. I like that, right, 179 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 2: And I see the interconnectedness of it all, and the 180 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 2: hyper individualism is very white supremacist. It's very you're on 181 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 2: your own. And for me, I end up thinking about 182 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 2: the African proverb, if you want to go fast, go alone, 183 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 2: If you want to go far, go together, that the 184 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 2: support of the community will take you further than you 185 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 2: ever thought that you could go. If you're trying to 186 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:28,719 Speaker 2: get somewhere quick and you want to make it, I mean, 187 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:30,839 Speaker 2: it'd be quick and it'd be cute, because it will 188 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 2: not be sustainable. I just keep thinking that many hands 189 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 2: make light the work. And because you didn't even start 190 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 2: the work, now you're talking about undoing what you got 191 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 2: and then rebuilding and going from there. It feels quite 192 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 2: frankly idiotic, Like maybe that's not the kindest way to 193 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 2: say it, but it is a way that I would 194 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 2: say it. It does feel a little idiotic. And I 195 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 2: remember somebody telling me that no, it's yours, you should 196 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 2: build it on your own and what happened in the 197 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 2: past doesn't matter. Tell that to symbol I smacked in 198 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 2: the head by Rafiki and whatef Robki say oh, well 199 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 2: it's in the past, and then he understood. But it 200 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,079 Speaker 2: still hurts. The thing that was still hurts us now 201 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,559 Speaker 2: at our big age, at this time in our lives, 202 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 2: it still hurts, which means that we have to unlearn. 203 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 2: We have to do that work. 204 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: What definition are you actually using for self esteem? What 205 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: do you mean when we are talking about self esteem, 206 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: especially as the way you are conceptualizing in. 207 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 2: Oh, self esteem is how you feel about yourself? I'm like, 208 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 2: I didn't add no frills, I didn't add no extras, 209 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 2: just how do you feel about you? I separated it 210 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 2: from self concept, which is what do you think and 211 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 2: know about you? Are you feeling yourself? Do you think 212 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 2: there's something wrong with you? Are you miirred and shame? Like? 213 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: How do you feel about you? And I think that's 214 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 2: the only way that you can really know is if 215 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: you also know yourself? Is it? 216 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: There are different dimensions for self esteem? Can I have 217 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 1: high self esteem as it relates to maybe you know, 218 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: like my hair, but then have lower self esteem? Maybe 219 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 1: as it relates to some other area of my life. 220 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 2: You know what you are taking me on this memory 221 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 2: lane of the dissertation I wrote, and I did sexual 222 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: self efficacy along with general self esteem and hair esteem, 223 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: sexual self efficacy just being sexual esteem. Is there a 224 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 2: correlation between how we feel about our sexual selves, our 225 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 2: hair and our general self esteem? And the answer was yes. 226 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 2: Usually if you were good in one, you were good 227 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 2: in a lot of the other areas as well. They 228 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 2: were very strongly correlated. For me, I am thinking of 229 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 2: it though, as being dimensional, that you may feel really 230 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 2: great about yourself in this space, but not so great 231 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 2: in this space. And the thing sometimes we want to 232 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 2: borrow trouble. So if you feel good about yourself, say financially, 233 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 2: you think that that means that it's going to translate 234 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 2: to how you feel about yourself, maybe in your romantic 235 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 2: relationships or in your friendships. And I don't think that's 236 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 2: how that works. I think that if you don't, you 237 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 2: can't buy your way into liking yourself. But people think 238 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 2: you can. They think you can buy and earn your 239 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 2: way into enjoying who you are. I think that money 240 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 2: is just money, and that when we die, we don't 241 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 2: take it nowhere. 242 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: So if you're saying that self esteem is a community 243 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: kind of project, right, we need people to kind of 244 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: help us establish that for ourselves. Actually, no, let's take 245 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: a step back to how does it get damaged in 246 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: the first place, and then what does it look like 247 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,079 Speaker 1: to actually rebuild it. 248 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,679 Speaker 2: I'd say that it gets damaged by way of triangulation. 249 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: That feels like a fancy therapy word. 250 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 2: It definitely is a little halfway fancy therapy word, but 251 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 2: triangulation being that, like the way that your parents raise 252 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 2: you is through the lens of white supremacy. Oftentimes they 253 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 2: think about what will it be for you to be 254 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 2: in public? And I don't know, I feel like it 255 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,079 Speaker 2: was a thing for a while to punish your kid 256 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 2: according to what the law might do to them, which 257 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 2: is kind of wild. So you're doing this untold damage. 258 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 2: But it's through this lens. It's white supremacy requires you 259 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 2: to behave this way. Male supremacy requires women to behave 260 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 2: this way. So your parents teach you that way and 261 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 2: you grow up in that way. But when you deviate 262 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 2: from it, you get pushedback, like your parents will point 263 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 2: to what someone else is doing outside They will point 264 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 2: to what society is saying about this thing to try 265 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 2: and make you go back into the space that they 266 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 2: taught you to be in, triangulating you back into position 267 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 2: your parents got it from their parents, who got it 268 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 2: from their parents, and so on and so forth. So 269 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 2: at some point someone has to withstand the discomfort of 270 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 2: being out of pocket in order to change the entire system. 271 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 2: And some of it to me is like how much 272 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 2: bravery do we have to do that part of the 273 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 2: work to defy what other people think our place should be. 274 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 2: Because there is a place for the fat woman, there 275 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 2: is a place for the disabled woman, there's a place 276 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 2: for the dark skinned woman. People say things like you 277 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 2: act in light skin. We have to consider what does 278 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 2: that mean. What are you saying when you say that 279 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: someone is behaving light skin? What are you saying about 280 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 2: that person's worth and value relative to someone who is 281 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 2: light skin. You're saying that they don't actually have as 282 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 2: much and that they should. The same way people will 283 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 2: say like, act your wage like you don't have enough 284 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 2: money to be that sessy. You don't have enough money 285 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 2: to be wanting the things that you want. As a 286 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: matter of fact, we even say beggars cannot be choosers. 287 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 2: All of these things are meant to triangulate someone back 288 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 2: into position about where someone sees them and not necessarily 289 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 2: evoke where they may actually be mentally, emotionally, etc. We 290 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 2: are just going by what we see and then we're 291 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 2: telling them where they should actually rearrange themselves to be. 292 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 2: The triangulation is happening all around us, and I guess 293 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 2: I just wonder when we're going to stop. 294 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: What does it look like then to take yourself out 295 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: of their triangulation? Or maybe we don't take ourselves out right, 296 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: Like maybe it is the system around us that forces 297 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: us out, or how does it happen that we realize, Okay, 298 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: something needs to change here. 299 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 2: You find the right people, you build your community. Sometimes 300 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 2: you have vacant self esteem, which is they feel lowly 301 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 2: about themselves and that's just it, right, like there's nothing 302 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 2: else going on there. They feel low and the world 303 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 2: confirms that, yes, indeed you are low. So sometimes you 304 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 2: need to build the people around you who don't think 305 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 2: what you think, who think a little bit better about 306 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 2: you than you do, and those people for a time 307 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 2: may serve as validation. The point or the goal is 308 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 2: to get them to be confirmation. You don't want to 309 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 2: be validated by somebody your entire life, because then whether 310 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 2: or not you get to feel good about yourself hangs 311 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 2: on the whim of their feelings. But sometimes to start out, 312 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 2: that's what we need. We need somebody else to be like, 313 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 2: excuse you don't talk tobout feel like you need someone 314 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 2: else to be like, oh, no, you are the shit. 315 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,919 Speaker 2: Indeed you are awesome. Right, someone to lift you up, 316 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 2: someone to help you in that way, and they will 317 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 2: serve as validation for a time until you get to 318 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 2: a place where you can validate yourself. But then they 319 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 2: just confirm. So then it's oh, am I tripping? Yes, girl, 320 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 2: you tripping. Then it's confirmation that, yes, indeed you are 321 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 2: tripping because I think you forgod, how great you are? Like, 322 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 2: let me help you find your mind because you lost it. 323 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 2: Let's help you find it. And I would say that 324 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 2: that is how like when I'm not feeling my best, 325 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 2: when I have questions, when I am confused about something, 326 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 2: I feel like I can reach out to people who 327 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 2: are able to get me back on my square, who 328 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 2: are able to remind me. I believe it was you 329 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 2: who told me, don't be looking at the reviews. It's 330 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 2: none of my business. Probably, And I like, even thinking 331 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 2: back to that very first book, Coco Butter and Hair Grease, 332 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 2: You and somebody else done told everybody that I had 333 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 2: a book that I didn't have, and I was just like, 334 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 2: now I got to come out of the Google drive fold, 335 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 2: and now it has to be a real book because 336 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 2: don't want to turn y'all to liars. And I'm just like, 337 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 2: where would I be without that level of love? Where 338 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 2: would I be without that love of support? Where would 339 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 2: I be if somebody else didn't believe more than I believed? 340 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 2: At the time, I didn't have the capacity to believe more. 341 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 2: I was full. I needed to double my capacity. But 342 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 2: that took time. That stretching took time, and it took people. 343 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 2: I didn't do it by myself, because who has time 344 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 2: to be doing everything by theirself? Don't We always say 345 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 2: that we need to stop trying to be superwoman. This 346 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 2: is us not being superwoman. Self esteem is not self 347 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 2: taught and it is not a solo game. 348 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, So, how would 349 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,880 Speaker 1: you say the book really walks readers through? Like, how 350 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: do you uncover your traumas and really the beliefs and 351 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: the behaviors that are rooted in trauma instead of in truth. 352 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: How does the book really help you to do that? 353 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 2: Ooh, this is a delicious question. The book is divided 354 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 2: into two parts, so you have Mind over Matter Part 355 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 2: one and Mind Your MATTERA Part two. I always think 356 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 2: of it like the first half is very much how 357 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 2: well do we understand the full scope of the problem, 358 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 2: And I would argue that a lot of us don't 359 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 2: really understand. So chapter one does the work of defining it. 360 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 2: Chapter two talks about what's in it, and chapter three 361 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 2: brings in this idea about the values. What values have 362 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 2: we been given as it surrounds self esteem specifically, and 363 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 2: have we even been taught to value it at all? 364 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 2: Most of us are taught to value our productivity and 365 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,400 Speaker 2: our worth relative to others based off what we can 366 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 2: give them that would make us worthy and valuable people. 367 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 2: But if we're trying to move away from that, then 368 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 2: that means we've got a extra work to do. So 369 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 2: that's where it come into like what we're not going 370 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 2: to do and talking about sexuality and self esteem. So 371 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 2: the first half of the book is let's make sure 372 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 2: that we fully understand. And there's so many questions in 373 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 2: there to answer to get you thinking about like, Okay, 374 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 2: how has this thing been working for me? What could 375 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 2: I be doing next? Whereas the second half of the 376 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 2: book is very much we're gonna get the work now. 377 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 2: Now's the part where we do still talking concepts but 378 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 2: actually practicing them, putting that work in. And I don't 379 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 2: recommend anybody do this work alone. I recommend that you 380 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: do it with someone with a group if you will, 381 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 2: maybe get that book, maybe get your sister circle, right, 382 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 2: get your sister circle, get your book club. Don't do 383 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 2: it by yourself, because I want people to be able 384 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 2: to talk it out with other people, and I think 385 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,719 Speaker 2: that we already do enough alone, and quite frankly, I'm 386 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 2: over it. 387 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,120 Speaker 1: So in this book and kind of throughout your work, 388 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: you're always talking about like unlearning, right, Like I feel 389 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 1: like that is a hallwark word for you, just because 390 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 1: of so much of the work is about like all 391 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,360 Speaker 1: these things that we've been taught about ourselves that are 392 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: like not true but really impacting how we live and 393 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: how we show up in the world. So what does 394 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 1: the process of unlearning look like? And how is that 395 00:21:58,720 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: related to our self esteem? 396 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 2: Ooh, learning is painful, it's I think it's scary. There 397 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 2: is an unraveling that can occur that makes it feel 398 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,440 Speaker 2: sometimes like you are untethered and you're about to float 399 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 2: away and you have no idea where you're going. Because 400 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 2: being tethered to a lie probably feels more comfortable than 401 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 2: being untethered completely because at least you know how you're 402 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 2: supposed to function within a lie. You also don't have 403 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 2: to take full accountability for you when you are tethered 404 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 2: to that lie, because as long as you're tethered to 405 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,600 Speaker 2: that lie, then well, the lie said this, The lie 406 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 2: has to be the one to take accountability for this. 407 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: You only are responsible for making sure that you act 408 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 2: within the confines that was fed to you. But when 409 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 2: you unravel, it's scary to look at your life and 410 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 2: know that you have to readjust that. It may put 411 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 2: you at odds with your family members, with your friends. 412 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 2: Because we pick the people in our lives at our 413 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 2: capacity level. We teach them how to treat us based 414 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 2: off that capacity. So when your capacity and your tolerance 415 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 2: for discomfort grow and you're like, no, that's not okay 416 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: for me. That doesn't feel okay for me, and you're 417 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 2: now putting in boundaries, you're having better communication. They're not 418 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 2: going for it, not immediately, not all at once. They're 419 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 2: not going for it because they know what has always been. 420 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 2: They know who you have been to them, and now 421 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 2: you're changing who you are, which requires them to now 422 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 2: be behaving differently as well. For some people, it's just 423 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 2: a bit too much, which is part of the reason 424 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 2: why you got to find the right people. It's why 425 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 2: you have to do this other part of the work. 426 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 2: But there's nothing cute about healing. And I know that 427 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 2: people throw that word around willing nearly all the time. Understood, 428 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 2: healing is nonlinear and healing hurts. You're exposing things that 429 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,880 Speaker 2: have been under tight wraps, right you're actually doing the work. 430 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 2: I mean people say things like time heals all womb 431 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 2: time don't heal nothing. It's a lot that we tell 432 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 2: ourselves so that we can praise ourselves for our own inaction. 433 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 2: I'm like time passes, that's all it does. Whether or 434 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 2: not it heals is entirely up to you. Because with healing, 435 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 2: you have to apply something and usually that thing is 436 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 2: going to make you a little bit uncomfortable. It's taking 437 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: the medicine, it's using the alcohol or the hydrogen peroxide. 438 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 2: It's going to the doctor to set a bone straight. 439 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 2: It hurts, but then the ache, the pain that comes after, 440 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 2: is healing pain, and not the continued pain of being 441 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 2: out of alignment, of being consistently hurt. Quiet as it's kept, 442 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 2: some of us get used to it. We get used 443 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 2: to constantly being in pain, and as a matter of fact, 444 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: and I just get used to it. We identify with it. 445 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 2: So with you want to learn, then now you've got 446 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 2: to figure out who you are without this pain. And 447 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: if this pain is the only thing that you believe 448 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 2: makes you valuable, you may not want to do the 449 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 2: work anyway. 450 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: So I want to go back to something that you said, 451 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: because you talked about boundaries as it's related to self esteem, 452 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: and I think when we learn about boundaries, we're often 453 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: thinking about it in relation to other people. But you 454 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: talk about it as being something that we set for ourselves. 455 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: Can you talk about that distinction. 456 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 2: I feel like boundaries are what you do in your 457 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 2: own garden, right, Like I think that sometimes people think 458 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 2: that boundaries are what you do to say no to 459 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 2: other people. I'm not worried about them. I'm worried about you, right, So, 460 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 2: like boundaries to me are how you say yes to yourself, 461 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 2: and sometimes that requires you to say no to other things. 462 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 2: So I think about how comfortable do I feel with 463 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 2: this thing, what is it that I'm wanting in this moment, 464 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 2: what is it that I'm needing? And I set my 465 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 2: boundaries accordingly. I know that I need to drink more water. 466 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 2: I set a boundary around how much of this thing 467 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 2: or that thing gets to be in the house. When 468 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,719 Speaker 2: I know that I need to drink more water. I 469 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 2: know that I require a certain amount of quiet time, 470 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 2: which means that my mama and my sister deciding that 471 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 2: my house is a work share experience, it means that 472 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 2: I have to put a limit on that. And it's 473 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 2: not about them, It's about me. It's about what I 474 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 2: learned about me. Even going to brunch yesterday was a 475 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 2: conversation in boundaries. There were things that I needed to 476 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 2: do and some quiet time that I needed to have. 477 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 2: I intended yesterday to be like a morning day for me. 478 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 2: I was just gonna cry. I've got a live feelings. 479 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 2: All this stuff is going on all at once, and 480 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 2: I was just like, we're gonna be grid and we're 481 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 2: gonna cry. And I took some time and realized I 482 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 2: didn't need more. So when my sister said, hey, let's 483 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 2: go to brunch easy, yes, I was just like, you 484 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 2: know what, I do need to be around family right now. 485 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 2: I don't need to be by myself, and I do 486 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 2: want to see my sister and I do want to 487 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 2: spend time with my parents. For me, the boundary was 488 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 2: will it bring you joy? Will it bring you pleasure? 489 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 2: Will it bring you peace? And why aren't you doing it? 490 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 2: And I mean, quite frankly, that's how I choose a 491 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 2: lot of stuff that I do these days. Will it 492 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 2: bring me something? What will it bring me? And is 493 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 2: the thing that is going to bring me something that 494 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 2: I want? Recently, I was supposed to do an event 495 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,160 Speaker 2: with someone, and when I met her, I was very 496 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 2: excited and wanted to learn more about her and her 497 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 2: work and how we could come together to do this thing. 498 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 2: We don't found the venue, we don't talk to the 499 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 2: owner of the venue. We about to set it off, 500 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 2: but she was so rude to me, so often right 501 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 2: like condescending in the way that she spoke to me, 502 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 2: and I was just like, I got to do it 503 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 2: because I made a commitment. And I was just like, 504 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 2: you also made a commitment to yourself. Are you violating 505 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 2: your commitment to yourself by continuing with this thing that 506 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 2: feels not just uncomfortable but untenable? Like I've had a 507 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 2: conversation with her about it, I was just like, I don't. 508 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 2: I don't like the way you talk to me. So 509 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 2: it's not that it came out of left field and 510 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 2: we didn't have a conversation. I said what I needed 511 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 2: to say. She continued the way that she continued. I decided, 512 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 2: you know what I'm done. I'm gonna give you the flyer. 513 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 2: You do with it what you will, good luck and 514 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 2: your future endeavors. She ain't said nothing to me, but 515 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 2: in that moment, I felt like I honored myself. I 516 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,400 Speaker 2: was just like, I don't have to work with somebody 517 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 2: who is disrespectful, who doesn't know how to use the 518 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 2: word please, and who is giving me directives like I 519 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 2: worked for her, So for me, the boundary, it wasn't 520 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 2: about her. It was about how I felt and what 521 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 2: I needed and what I didn't need was that. So 522 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 2: I stopped, yeah and that feels like a beautiful example 523 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 2: of how that would make you feel better about yourself. 524 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 2: Right like that I honored myself, which is why I 525 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 2: think it's so cool that you are connecting boundaries to 526 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 2: self esteem, right like. I think that that is a 527 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 2: good reminder for people to think about when they have 528 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 2: to maybe have some of those difficult conversations. Yeah, and 529 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 2: sometimes you have to practice your self esteem before it's 530 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 2: there fully, so I know that I still am working 531 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 2: on me, And that's what I know. I don't think 532 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 2: there's a land called self esteem and you just arrive 533 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 2: and you stay. I think that it's constant work because 534 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 2: the world around you is constantly giving you whatever message 535 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 2: it's trying to give you to triangulate you back into 536 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 2: whatever the position was that you were in. And I 537 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 2: know that for me, if I don't hear from someone, 538 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 2: sometimes I tell myself a story about why they don't 539 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 2: want to hear from me, or why something feels off. 540 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 2: I'm like, I ask myself often is it helpful for 541 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 2: you to create that type of story? Do you want 542 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 2: to talk to them directly and actually understand or you 543 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 2: want to keep on being in an assulption. And I'm 544 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 2: thinking about something that a teacher wants said, like to 545 00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 2: assume takes an ask out of you and me and 546 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 2: not just let me stop assuming. Or better yet, what's 547 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 2: the worst case scenario, what's the best case scenario, what's 548 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 2: the most likely scenario. Let's go with the most likely 549 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 2: until you actually have a conversation and see how that works. 550 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 2: And in doing so it helps me, for example, to 551 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 2: actually ask for help. I'm not really good at it. 552 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 2: I feel so guilty because I'm like, oh, but this 553 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 2: person has this thing going on and they're busy, and 554 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 2: I tell myself all the story about why I shouldn't ask, 555 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 2: and I have to mind my business. I can't make 556 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 2: choices for other people. So I drink my water and 557 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 2: I mind my business and I just ask. And if 558 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 2: the answer is no, I am accepting of the no. 559 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 2: I hear the no, I accept the no, and I 560 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 2: often ask for any explanation. Most people offer it anyway, 561 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 2: right like, oh, no, I won't be able to do 562 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 2: this because so I sort of go with whatever the 563 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 2: no is. But when they say yes, I'm like, look 564 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,959 Speaker 2: at that. You made a choice for someone that you 565 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 2: didn't need to make, and you told yourself no and 566 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 2: they would have told you, yes, stop doing this. So 567 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 2: I use it as a way to also reinforce in 568 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 2: my mind that I have to trust the people who 569 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 2: are in my life to make choices for themselves and 570 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 2: not for me to make choices for them based off 571 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 2: how I feel about me and my request in that moment, 572 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 2: like asking you to write the forward for the book, 573 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 2: knees was quaking, stomach was queazy, and I was just like, 574 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 2: tape it and put your phone down. Okay. I just 575 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 2: I ran away from the phone. I was just like, 576 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 2: okay that way, and then I started thinking, Okay, who 577 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:42,719 Speaker 2: else come riding forward? 578 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: Matt, You've already had no backup player for me? 579 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 2: Well, because I was just like, no, doctor, Joy is 580 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 2: busy as a book a show. I mean soon gonna 581 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 2: be on TV. Right, I'm putting it out there to Joy. 582 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 2: Somebody heard it, and I'm just like, I can't ask 583 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 2: because that would be ridiculous. That's what goes on my mind. 584 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 2: You can't ask because that would be ridiculous. But then 585 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 2: I had to consider what is saying that? Is it 586 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 2: the part of me that was taught never to have 587 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 2: needs that I would be more valuable, especially in my 588 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 2: dark skinness. If I were a person who didn't have needs, 589 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 2: who never voiced needs, but only met the needs of 590 00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 2: others as they request of me. I don't think people 591 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 2: think of that as a self esteem conversation, but I do. 592 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. I was about to say more about that, because 593 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: I don't think our traditional literature does not connect anything 594 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: about our needs and all of that to self esteem. 595 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: But you definitely do that here. So can you talk 596 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 1: more about I mean, you can continue with the example, 597 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: talk more about like how this shows up in ways 598 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: that people don't think about self esteem, how it shows 599 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: up in our lives. 600 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 2: I'm not even sure how to answer. I think that 601 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 2: we are taught how to put on a performance based 602 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 2: off our body size, our skin tone, our perceived gender, 603 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 2: based off our gendaitoals. We are taught about where we 604 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 2: should be in life, about where our ranking is, and 605 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 2: then we're taught how to behave according to that ranking. 606 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 2: And people who are dark skinned, people who are fat, 607 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 2: people are disabled are the people who are supposed to 608 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 2: just take what you can get because you are a 609 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 2: beggar in life, which means you don't make choice, you 610 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 2: can even you can't even choose to like yourself without 611 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,719 Speaker 2: our permission, because there's nothing likable about you, so you 612 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 2: don't get to which means that you stop asking questions, 613 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 2: you stop asking for things. I've had people show up 614 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 2: in therapy and say, with whole chest, oh yeah, you know, 615 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 2: I'm gonna go with the flow type of person. I 616 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 2: don't have no you know, I don't be neat and nothing. 617 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 2: I'm just like, this is a flex. This is your flex. 618 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 2: You went with the flow so far that you did 619 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 2: not give any heed or mind to what it is 620 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 2: that you needed, and now you don't even know how 621 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 2: you got to where you went. Being good with the 622 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 2: flow is not a flex. You just told me you 623 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 2: don't have any boundaries. You just told me that there's 624 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 2: nothing that this person could ask of you that you 625 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 2: won't give, regardless of how much it harms you. Not 626 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 2: a flex. The other pieces that sometimes we use, the 627 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 2: things that we do have to try and prove our 628 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:42,359 Speaker 2: value relative to others. So people will say things like, oh, 629 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 2: it's not my fault that I'm so pretty. You are 630 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 2: assuming that other people are ugly. And I challenge people 631 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 2: to tell me what is it about you that you 632 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 2: think it's particularly pretty? And they will almost always tell you, oh, well, 633 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 2: I got good hair, I have like skinned, Oh I'm skinny. 634 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 2: I'm like, skinny is not a personality. Light skin is 635 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 2: not a personality. Good hair is not a personality, and 636 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 2: they should not be made into such. But if that's 637 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 2: the thing that you've been taught that you are allowed 638 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 2: to shine on, it becomes your personality. So you don't 639 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 2: even know what other awesome things there are about you 640 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 2: because you are so focused on the thing that other 641 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 2: people said that they found valuable. We lose out when 642 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 2: the narrative is reduced down to a single attribute, because 643 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 2: there's so much more that people have to offer that 644 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 2: we never will get to. If it's just well, the 645 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 2: thing that makes me cute is this, or the things 646 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 2: that makes me valuable is this. Mother's Day is on 647 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,960 Speaker 2: the way, if not passed, it's somewhere. And I think 648 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 2: one of the things that sort of gets on my 649 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,800 Speaker 2: nerves the most is that Mother's Day seems like a 650 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 2: day where we praise mothers for their lady I'm like, 651 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 2: is that all you have to praise a mom for 652 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 2: what they did? So if they did nothing, they're not 653 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 2: a worthwhile person. They're not a worthwhile human. For me, 654 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 2: it's mothers are only worth something because of their use 655 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 2: relative to us, what they're willing to sacrifice of themselves. 656 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 2: And I'm just like, I don't think that's a flex either. 657 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 2: Granted I also think of Mother's Day as my day. 658 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,399 Speaker 2: I ain't got no children, but I'm just like Mammy, 659 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 2: you need to celebrate me. I'm your first born. I'm 660 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 2: the reason for the season. 661 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. So this is 662 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 1: not a surprise for me and probably not for anybody 663 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: who knows your work, But there's a very strong connection 664 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: to self esteem and sexuality and sexual pleasure in the books. 665 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,959 Speaker 1: Can you say more about the connection there, because again, 666 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: that is not something that you would see in literature 667 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 1: before your book. So what's the connection there and why 668 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 1: did you think it was important to talk about that. 669 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 2: I felt like it was important to talk about because 670 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,959 Speaker 2: somehow the conversation about sex gets left out of self 671 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,399 Speaker 2: esteem or sexuality. So sex being the what you do 672 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 2: with that body audi and sexuality being who you are, 673 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 2: So we are sexual beings from birth till death, and 674 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 2: the sexuality being in the way that we adorn ourselves, 675 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,359 Speaker 2: the way that we talk to other people who we're 676 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 2: attracted to, whether or not we feel safe in that attraction. 677 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 2: All those things for me are in the space of 678 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 2: sexuality as well as hedge path. Thinking about the book 679 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 2: teaching about HIV, it's a textbook, it's the first thing 680 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,720 Speaker 2: that comes to mind. So after having distinguished the difference 681 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 2: between sex and sexuality, understanding that quite frankly, a lot 682 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 2: of us are raised with the idea that we will 683 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 2: be partnered, that we will be partnered, that we will 684 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,840 Speaker 2: bring forth progeny, and we will raise is that progeny. 685 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 2: These are basically sexuality based rituals. How will you adorn 686 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 2: yourself in order to find your partner in order to 687 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,319 Speaker 2: have commitment or not have commitment? And then what will 688 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,759 Speaker 2: you do sexually in the bedroom in order to produce 689 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 2: said progeny? And yet somehow in the conversations about self esteem, 690 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,879 Speaker 2: we don't talk about sexuality. I was just like, how 691 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 2: does that work? Seems strange, seems off, especially when so 692 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 2: many people are talking about self esteem relative to their 693 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,280 Speaker 2: ability to get a partner. So I'm like, you're talking 694 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 2: about getting a partner, but we're not talking about sex 695 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:44,839 Speaker 2: and sexuality seems off. Stinks alone. It's faulked. We need 696 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 2: to remake that. So for me, it was important to 697 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 2: bring it into the book because number one, I don't 698 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 2: know that they're actually separate concepts. And for black girls 699 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 2: in particular, they are already given this title of being 700 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 2: fast from the time that they are young. So if 701 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 2: you are a fast black girl, how did that impact 702 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 2: your self esteem? Even the words of being told to 703 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 2: go put on some clothes because your uncle is coming over, 704 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,839 Speaker 2: how did this impact your sexuality development and your self 705 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 2: esteem development? Inquire our minds want to know, so I 706 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 2: thought it was important to talk about. 707 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 1: So how are you hoping that readers will interact and 708 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: engage with the book? 709 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 2: I think that sometimes I only got as far as 710 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 2: just write a girl, and I don't know that I 711 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:39,280 Speaker 2: spent as much time thinking about the reader experience until recently, 712 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:43,280 Speaker 2: until like after you know, the book is done and 713 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 2: they're like, Okay, finally the editing is done and we're 714 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,439 Speaker 2: going to make it look cute. I feel like there's 715 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 2: been one thing after the other that I don't know 716 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 2: that I thought very much about the experience of reading it. 717 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 2: So I really like your question, what should I. 718 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: Maybe there is no shit, Maybe it's just like it's 719 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:03,840 Speaker 1: up there now. 720 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I want people to read it. That'd be nice, 721 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 2: pretty cool if it's more than just me and my 722 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 2: mom and my editing team and you. If it's more 723 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 2: than us, that I think I would be satisfied. And 724 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 2: I want people to think of this as a guide, 725 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 2: so I know that's some people like to read things 726 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,920 Speaker 2: through quickly so that they have an overview and an understanding. Cool, 727 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 2: go back, read the things, but answer all the questions. 728 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:34,719 Speaker 2: I even put like a QR code where people could 729 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,720 Speaker 2: get a workbook that I created as a companion piece 730 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 2: because I was thinking about it, like, if you don't 731 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 2: make it easy for people to do the thing, they 732 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 2: won't do the thing. So I wanted to make it 733 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 2: easy for people to do the thing. So there is 734 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 2: a QR code in the book that will get them 735 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,800 Speaker 2: this workbook where they can answer some of those questions 736 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 2: that are found in the book. And I even created 737 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 2: a free website where I'm keeping resources and that I 738 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 2: will regularly update with more things. Mostly because I am 739 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 2: an expert, but I'm not the Capital Tche expert on 740 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 2: self esteem. I don't think anybody is the Capital Tche 741 00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 2: expert on self esteem, which means that I want people 742 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 2: to be able to hear from a diverse number of 743 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,919 Speaker 2: people on their thoughts about self esteem, to be able 744 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,319 Speaker 2: to take in the information and then synthesize it for 745 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,919 Speaker 2: themselves and pick the pieces that make the most sense 746 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 2: for where they are in their life's journey at the moment. 747 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 2: So for me, this is the book that you revisit 748 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,759 Speaker 2: something that you can read it now, but as you're 749 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,319 Speaker 2: going through a certain life stage or something is going on, 750 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,920 Speaker 2: or you're struggling with a certain concept, you can go 751 00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 2: back do it again. Your answers may change, what you 752 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 2: know may change, because as long as you're a person 753 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:58,279 Speaker 2: who is alive, you're constantly changing, you're constantly learning, and 754 00:41:58,400 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 2: I want you to be able to do everything that 755 00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 2: you can and with that learning, with that growth. 756 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 1: So what's one piece of advice you would give your 757 00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 1: eighteen year old self? 758 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 2: My eighteen year old self was something else. Ooh, one 759 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 2: piece of advice I would give my eighteen year old self. 760 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 2: I think I would have asked her to shine brighter. 761 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:24,880 Speaker 2: I think that I felt crown. Crown. I think I 762 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,120 Speaker 2: would have told that self of mine to pick what 763 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 2: I want, not because of what someone else wants, but 764 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 2: because of what I actually want, what I actually desire, 765 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 2: because there's only one person that is going to live 766 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 2: my life and have to deal with the consequences or 767 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 2: the regrets of my action or in action. I don't 768 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 2: know what I would have been if I knew that 769 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:54,400 Speaker 2: on a deeper way at eighteen because Nigerian, firstborn and 770 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,600 Speaker 2: first gen doctor, lawyer, engineer, and I was supposed to 771 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:01,359 Speaker 2: be the doctor of psychology. And while yes I did 772 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 2: become a sex therapist instead, which was unexpected and not 773 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 2: all it wasn't completely welcomed, it was still a safer 774 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 2: route within what my parents wanted for me as opposed 775 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,560 Speaker 2: to what I wanted for myself. I very well may 776 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:27,320 Speaker 2: have been a dancer. I was very heavy in to dance, 777 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 2: modern ballet. That's what I wanted to do. I want 778 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 2: to dance, so I'll probably be a dancer. Right now, 779 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,880 Speaker 2: we wouldn't even know each other because you would still. 780 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,040 Speaker 1: Be I mean, we might, I don't know. I passed 781 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 1: get across, we'd be talking about dance therapy. Who knows? 782 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 1: Who even knows? 783 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 2: Who knows? So? 784 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,880 Speaker 1: Where can we stay connected with you? Where can we 785 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:48,840 Speaker 1: find our copy of the book. Give us all the 786 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:50,600 Speaker 1: digital information you can. 787 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,240 Speaker 2: Stay connected with me on social media. I'm at doctor 788 00:43:54,360 --> 00:44:01,319 Speaker 2: dot donna oreoo on Instagram, threads and TikTok. You want 789 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,320 Speaker 2: to get your copy of your book drinkwaterbook dot com. 790 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 2: I am trying to be everywhere because you know, I'm 791 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,960 Speaker 2: trying to put together like a baby book tour. Like 792 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,160 Speaker 2: maybe go somewhere say hi to some people. 793 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,760 Speaker 1: So be on the lookout for her in a city 794 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 1: near you or the internet. 795 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,200 Speaker 2: On the internet for so, I really am deeply in 796 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,399 Speaker 2: love with my house. I don't like leaving it. 797 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 1: I completely my stuff. 798 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:28,319 Speaker 2: They keep my stuff here. 799 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 1: I get it. I get it. I feel likewise, thank 800 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: you so much for spending some more time with us today, 801 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:37,520 Speaker 1: doctor Oriel. We really appreciate it. 802 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:40,839 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. 803 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,759 Speaker 1: I'm so glad Doctor Oriowell was able to join us 804 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 1: again today and share more of her expertise and to 805 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 1: share more about her new book, Drink Water and Mind 806 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,759 Speaker 1: Your Business. To learn more about her or to grab 807 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,120 Speaker 1: a copy of the book, visit the show notes at 808 00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,759 Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls dot com, slash Session for one 809 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,799 Speaker 1: one and don't forget to text this episode to two 810 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:04,879 Speaker 1: of your girls right now and tell them to check 811 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 1: it out. Did you know You can leave us a 812 00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,960 Speaker 1: voicemail with your questions or suggestions for the podcast. If 813 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 1: there's a book or movie you'd like to suggest, or 814 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,000 Speaker 1: if you have thoughts about topics you want us to discuss, 815 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,200 Speaker 1: drop us a message at Memo dot fm, slash Therapy 816 00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: for Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind. 817 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 1: We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're 818 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,200 Speaker 1: looking for a therapist in your area, visit our therapist 819 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:33,080 Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. This 820 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:37,320 Speaker 1: episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indychubu, and Tyrie Rush. 821 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,600 Speaker 1: Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank y'all so 822 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,240 Speaker 1: much for joining me again this week. I look forward 823 00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:47,000 Speaker 1: to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take 824 00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 1: good care,