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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to What Goes Up, a weekly markets podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Mike Reagan, and I'm a senior editor at Bloomberg,

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Speaker 1: and I'm dannahark Across, asset reporter at Bloomberg. This week

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Speaker 1: on the show, well Mark, it's got a few curveballs

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Speaker 1: thrown at it. Geopolitics is front and center again in

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Speaker 1: the news as the evacuation of Afghanistan turns deadly, and

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Speaker 1: policymakers at the Federal Reserve are starting to make it

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Speaker 1: clear that they're ready to start dialing back the liquidity

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Speaker 1: that has been so crucial to the bull market over

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Speaker 1: the last year and a half. What's it all means

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Speaker 1: for financial markets. Well, we'll get into it with the

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Speaker 1: chief strategist at a major brokerage. But first, Vildanna, I

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Speaker 1: gotta tell you it was a big week this week

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Speaker 1: because our old pal uh Sarah Hanzac actually re emerged

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Speaker 1: on television. Did you did you catch her appearance? I

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Speaker 1: sure did. It was really an exciting day. It reminded

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Speaker 1: me of how smart and well educated Sarah is, Vildona,

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Speaker 1: But as I she knows the one big gaping hole

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Speaker 1: in her education that I pointed out to her many

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Speaker 1: times is old man movies. Um, she hasn't seen any

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Speaker 1: of them. Whenever you get two old guys together in

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Speaker 1: a room, at some point, they just lapse into another

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Speaker 1: language that is nothing but quotes from old man movies.

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Speaker 1: And I gave her a list of movies to see

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Speaker 1: so that she could understand guys like me. I think

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Speaker 1: you tweeted it out once, right, I did? I did? Yeah? Yeah? Actually,

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Speaker 1: John and John author has wrote a calm about it.

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Speaker 1: Uh not everyone's a fan of the old man movies.

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Speaker 1: I know your generation maybe it's kind of sick of

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Speaker 1: us old men, But I do think it's important in

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Speaker 1: your job to know the old man movies. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: give you a list too. I think you should. You'll

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Speaker 1: actually watch them. I think Sarah kind of pretended like

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Speaker 1: she was gonna watch them. If you give me a list,

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Speaker 1: then I'll treat it as homework and I'll watch them. Okay, good?

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Speaker 1: And now well we can play stump Fildonna with some

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Speaker 1: old man movie clicks. I'll give you one today. Let's

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Speaker 1: see if you can get this one. You ready? Their nihilists, man,

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Speaker 1: they keep saying they believe in nothing. Do you get

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Speaker 1: that one? You need me? Repeated crickets over here. But

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Speaker 1: I have a feeling our guest knows exactly what you're

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Speaker 1: talking about. Do you think let's find out. Let's find out. Well,

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Speaker 1: we're joined today by Steve Sosnik. He's the chief strategist

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Speaker 1: at Interactive Brokers. Welcome to the show, Steve. It's my

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Speaker 1: pleasure to join you, Bill, Donna, and Mike. You can

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Speaker 1: call me dude or his dudeness or l doin no,

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Speaker 1: which Mike knows immediately what I'm talking about. And you

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Speaker 1: don't have the slightest now I know, the big Lebowski.

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Speaker 1: There you go a just not good quotes. I get

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Speaker 1: half a point. We're impressed you caught it at least

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Speaker 1: on the on the second reference. Sorry, that's good. That

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Speaker 1: is impressive, Steve. Let's get into it though, I you know,

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Speaker 1: talk about a sudden uh drama in the news with

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Speaker 1: this Afghanistan situation. I mean it's it's obviously a heartbreaking

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Speaker 1: situation from a humanitymanitarian standpoint, and I know, you know

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Speaker 1: it's can be awkward to talk about that type of

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Speaker 1: thing as it relates to markets. But um, such as

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Speaker 1: our our fate in life, I guess so, um, you

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Speaker 1: know our thoughts and simpathy to everyone affected by that.

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Speaker 1: But um, UM, I do think our listeners probably are curious,

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Speaker 1: um if this eventually has uh the chance to to

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Speaker 1: be a catalyst in the market. You know, I for me,

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Speaker 1: I can't really draw a straight line from what's going

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Speaker 1: on to sort of any fundamentals in the economy or

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Speaker 1: in the market's. Maybe oil gets a little jittery in

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Speaker 1: those markets, but you know that doesn't always stop the

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Speaker 1: market from having sort of a knee jerk reaction to

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Speaker 1: this sort of thing, especially on Thursday this week, as

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Speaker 1: it the bombings happened, and there's reports coming in as

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Speaker 1: we tape right now, some some Marines being killed in

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Speaker 1: the bombings. Is this a market potentially a market moving event?

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Speaker 1: Do you think, um, either in the short term or

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Speaker 1: in the long term, if this sort of affects the

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Speaker 1: US standing geopolitically with other um situations around the world, well,

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Speaker 1: as tough as it is to deal with, it's as

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Speaker 1: a market moving event. It's it's really an outlier, you know,

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Speaker 1: think of it this way. And I don't mean to

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Speaker 1: minimize what happened today by any means, but the last

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Speaker 1: week and a half two weeks in Afghanistan has been

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Speaker 1: you know, pretty much an unmitigated um set of scenes

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Speaker 1: of of of nightmarish looking you know, nightmares looking setups.

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Speaker 1: And you know, the thought is as it like Psigon

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Speaker 1: or whatever. Bottom line though, is the market didn't care.

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Speaker 1: And for better or worse, this is not you know,

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Speaker 1: the markets, I will say, I think the people in

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Speaker 1: the market's care. But ultimately, when you get down to it,

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Speaker 1: it's not. Afghanistan is such an outlier to the world economy.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't contribute much in the way of GDP if anything.

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Speaker 1: You know, their main export at this point is opium poppy,

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Speaker 1: which is really outside the you know, the framework of

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Speaker 1: the economy. And so if if we have to think

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Speaker 1: in the terms of what does this mean to earnings

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Speaker 1: and cash flows or whatever, it doesn't um And that's

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Speaker 1: why that that's why the market reaction is has been

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Speaker 1: muted in that regard. Yes, the markets sold off on

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Speaker 1: that trigger. I think markets just don't like anything any

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Speaker 1: sort of terrorism that because that's that's a more visceral problem.

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Speaker 1: But in terms of a widespread economic thing, perhaps there's

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Speaker 1: a geopolitical answer answer in there. But um, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think I think in the world of day to

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Speaker 1: day trading and short term investing, it's just not there's

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Speaker 1: there's not a clear cause effect in terms of what's

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Speaker 1: going to move a market. And I think Steve the

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Speaker 1: through line here is that the market has been able

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Speaker 1: to look past so much. I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people refer to the market climbing, you know, the wall

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Speaker 1: of worry, and you know, we keep hitting record high

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Speaker 1: after record high. I think the big question is how

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Speaker 1: much longer all of this can go on for? And

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Speaker 1: I'm hoping you can share your thoughts. Well, I think

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Speaker 1: we'll get some clarity on that. Regard um this this weekend, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, as the Jackson Hole Conference proceeds, you know, Friday, Saturday, UM,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're we're as we're taping this now. I

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Speaker 1: think they're you know, they're having drinks on the patio,

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Speaker 1: you know, virtually or those who or those who had

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Speaker 1: nonrefundable tickets, you know, in hotel reservations are um. But

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Speaker 1: you know, I think that the key is this has

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Speaker 1: been a very liquidity driven market. I think that somehow

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Speaker 1: the market has markets have still really not come to

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Speaker 1: grips with the fact that the FED is really talking

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Speaker 1: quite seriously about if not not necessarily tightening, but taking

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Speaker 1: their foot off the accelerator. And you know, I wonder

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Speaker 1: if even just the act of taking their foot off

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Speaker 1: the accelerator. You know, I don't love to use the

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Speaker 1: term taper tantrum, but you know, I think that we've

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Speaker 1: gotten We've gotten to where we are in a wide

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Speaker 1: variety of risk assets because of the relentless accommodation of

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Speaker 1: the FED and too and certainly to some extent of

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Speaker 1: the fiscal accommodation as well. Um and I think that

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Speaker 1: the market is going to have to reckon with this,

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Speaker 1: and I think stock investors will probably end up taking

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Speaker 1: their cue from the bond market, because quite honestly, bond

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Speaker 1: traders are better at this stuff than stock traders. Fair enough.

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Speaker 1: Fair enough, they certainly watched the FED a lot closer

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Speaker 1: than than most of the stock traders I know. But Steve,

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Speaker 1: I was joking about the nihilism and the nihilists at

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Speaker 1: the beginning, because you had a funny quote in some

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Speaker 1: of our email traffic before this, uh, reacting to a story,

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Speaker 1: and not to talk our own book, but I will

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Speaker 1: talk her own book of Eldon and I wrote a

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Speaker 1: story about sort of, as she said, sort of the

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Speaker 1: wall where or just the the the basic unknowable nous

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Speaker 1: if that's an actual word about the economy and the

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Speaker 1: markets and what's coming next in the age of COVID

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Speaker 1: and in the age of all the stimulus throne at it,

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Speaker 1: and I wonder, you know, and you you would sort

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Speaker 1: of describe it as as a nihilist market, which I

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Speaker 1: like that a lot, uh dude references aside, but I wonder,

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously the FED liquidity is a huge part

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Speaker 1: of why that phenomenon exists to some degree. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of money slashing around looking to find a home. Um,

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Speaker 1: how important is the dialing back of that when the

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Speaker 1: fiscal side of things has been so aggressive to um

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Speaker 1: and and not only just the fiscal stimulus that the spending,

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Speaker 1: but just you know, the amount of savings that the

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Speaker 1: consumer in America has had over the past year, those

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Speaker 1: of us lucky enough to keep our job or you know,

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Speaker 1: be able to whatever reason, boost our savings rate. The

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Speaker 1: the American savings rate just went through the roof. There

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Speaker 1: just was not a lot of things to spend money on.

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Speaker 1: So in some ways, does that sort of uh make

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Speaker 1: the tapering maybe less problematic than it would be otherwise

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Speaker 1: if we didn't have this this aggressive fiscal and you know,

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Speaker 1: economic based liquidity on on the other side, outside of

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Speaker 1: the federal reserve. UM. I think a lot of it

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Speaker 1: has to do with how those savings are deployed. UM.

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Speaker 1: I think if you and you know, I think if

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Speaker 1: those savings, first of all, if those savings were used

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Speaker 1: to pay down debt um, you know, if they were

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Speaker 1: used to refinance mortgages, UM, if they were used to

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Speaker 1: pay down credit cards, UH, the individual's balance sheet is

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Speaker 1: in much better shape and thus able to withstand it.

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Speaker 1: If you then too, if, on the other hand, you

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Speaker 1: took all your stimulus money and refinanced your house and

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Speaker 1: bought um, you know, doach coin, I would say that

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Speaker 1: you're I would say that your financial standing maybe a

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Speaker 1: bit more UM tied to the outcome of Jackson Hole.

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Speaker 1: And I think you know, if if you if you've

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Speaker 1: used those if part of the savings, you know, the

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Speaker 1: improvement and balance sheet is because of the wealth effect

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Speaker 1: from you know, stocks going up. Let's say you just

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Speaker 1: did something and let's say you just brought SMP index funds.

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Speaker 1: You're you're you're doing what quite well. Um, if the

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Speaker 1: market reacts poorly, you'll get a draw down. You probably

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Speaker 1: won't get the full draw down to what we saw

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Speaker 1: last March, um, you know, and so that's really where

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Speaker 1: it comes. I think. I think the problem you have

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Speaker 1: is when monetary policy is extraordinarily easy, you get a

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Speaker 1: lot of a lot of that money flows into incredibly speculative,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily particularly productive assets. I'll call it a flight

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Speaker 1: to rap for lack of a better word. And I

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Speaker 1: think that as part of this, you know, if you own,

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Speaker 1: if you own the really the stuff that's way out

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Speaker 1: there on the risk curve, that's where you're that's where

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Speaker 1: your most susceptible to to the to the bigger draw down.

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Speaker 1: I do like to think that we that the vast

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Speaker 1: majority of Americans will end up in better shape as

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Speaker 1: a result of all the things you said, But inevitably

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Speaker 1: there will be there will be some who got out

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Speaker 1: way over their skis, and and it's gonna stay. I

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Speaker 1: think we have our headline with flight to crap. What

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Speaker 1: do you think I like it, Steve, I'm actually working

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Speaker 1: on a story that touches on a bit of that,

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Speaker 1: where uh, as you know, I cover cryptocurrencies as well,

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Speaker 1: and when I'm talking to people, a lot of them say, well,

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Speaker 1: there is just so much money in the system. You

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Speaker 1: had people receiving the stimilar as checks during the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: and so it just makes sense that you would see

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Speaker 1: even some of these, like smaller alternative cryptocurrencies gaining. I

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Speaker 1: wrote a story about n f t s. Some of

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Speaker 1: them are put droopling in price over just a couple

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Speaker 1: of days. So I know you. I did my homework.

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Speaker 1: I know you. You have written about blockchain technology recently.

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Speaker 1: So I'm wondering if all of that makes sense to you,

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Speaker 1: or if maybe you're seeing something else where you describe

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Speaker 1: it a bit differently. Well, you know, those of us

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Speaker 1: who those of us who can reference eighties movies I've seen.

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Speaker 1: I've seen this movie before, which was the late nineties

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Speaker 1: where you were you had, you know, the advent of

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Speaker 1: the new technology being the Internet, and you know, and

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Speaker 1: and I'll use blockchain as an analogy to that, and

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Speaker 1: the blockchain. We don't know what blockchain is capable of,

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Speaker 1: just as the you know, the original internet um was

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Speaker 1: basically just a way to send messages, you know, around

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Speaker 1: so effective. It was just an email protocol, and now

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Speaker 1: it's so much more, um, you know, and it's it's

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Speaker 1: it's pervaded all aspects of our life. Um. And the

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Speaker 1: problem that I have is, you know, not all the

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Speaker 1: the Internet was a huge winner. The Internet bubble was

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Speaker 1: was clearly a bubble in hindsight, the result of you know,

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Speaker 1: the result of an easy of an easy fed, particularly

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Speaker 1: super turbo charged at the end by the y t

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Speaker 1: K problem and then sort of you know, came apart

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Speaker 1: when when the fed, when the fed withdrew some of

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Speaker 1: that liquidity. Um. And that's why I wrote earlier this

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Speaker 1: week about um, you know, is bitcoin Cisco? Is it

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Speaker 1: pets dot com? What what is it? You know? And

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Speaker 1: I would argue that, you know, doge coin is probably

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Speaker 1: more like pets dot com, where it's just clearly what

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Speaker 1: are these people doing? They know it's a joke, They've

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Speaker 1: admitted it's a joke. Every you know, except that there

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Speaker 1: are you know, a couple of very prominent billionaires who

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Speaker 1: say the right thing is when it when it needs

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Speaker 1: to go up every so often. And I'll leave them

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Speaker 1: nameless so I don't get sued. But um, but that's

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Speaker 1: really you know, and my analogy I kind of do

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Speaker 1: the takeaway of, you know, some of the cryptocurrencies will

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Speaker 1: be something, will be Amazon, you know, and it will

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Speaker 1: just be this huge winner, and it may not be

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Speaker 1: what we think it is. If I had to put

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Speaker 1: my money on one day, it's probably either or not

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Speaker 1: ethere I'm sorry, And I actually do not own any

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Speaker 1: cryptos right now. So um, and so that would probably

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Speaker 1: be the long term winner. I think. I think bitcoin

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Speaker 1: my analogy of Cisco, which was the Internet would not

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Speaker 1: exist without Cisco, you know, with all the switches, the wires, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: And the market the market got that part right, except

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Speaker 1: for the fact that they wildly overpriced it and it

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Speaker 1: never you know, never really recovered from from those from

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Speaker 1: those bubble days, and so and so that's the problem.

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Speaker 1: And so that you know, and and so and once

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Speaker 1: you start really getting into the permutations, who's got the

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Speaker 1: money for n f t s. Well, the money for

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Speaker 1: n f t s comes from the people who made

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Speaker 1: the money in crypto, and so now they're looking for

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Speaker 1: something else to put it in. Um. This is that's

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Speaker 1: like literally the epitome of too much money chasing too

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Speaker 1: few goods. Another thing I often hear is exactly what

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Speaker 1: you're describing. Where the money is moving maybe from some

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Speaker 1: of the original or bigger cryptocurrencies towards smaller cryptocurrencies, towards

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Speaker 1: defied towards n f t s, but then also meme stocks.

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Speaker 1: And I know we saw a resurgence in some of

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Speaker 1: the meme stocks this week. What are you seeing there

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Speaker 1: and what do we make of the continued uh in

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Speaker 1: investment and interest on the part of retail traders UM.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting because we you know, we do

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Speaker 1: keep track of what our customers are, you know, are

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Speaker 1: sort of our most actively involved in an AMC has

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Speaker 1: been at or near the top of that list for weeks,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of the top five, top ten. So

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Speaker 1: the meme stocks never really went away. I have sort

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Speaker 1: of put forth the idea that there's a rotation that

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Speaker 1: goes on between meme stocks and crypto and I think

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Speaker 1: it was very interesting that the day that UM bitcoin

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Speaker 1: pulled back from the fifty level was the day that

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Speaker 1: that the meme stocks returned UM you know, and had

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Speaker 1: their flash. I think a lot of what goes on

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Speaker 1: in either event is just you know, the sellers walk away,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you're how many times if you're you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're a market maker, whether it's stock or options

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Speaker 1: or just you know, a two sided trader, if you

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Speaker 1: see that at this point you've come to notice that

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Speaker 1: if there's the freight train coming in g M E

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Speaker 1: or a M C or any of those things, Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm out of here. I'm stepping back. I'm

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Speaker 1: really cutting back. One of one of the little market

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Speaker 1: maker tricks, which I can now talk about since I'm

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Speaker 1: not actively market making, is you know, one of the

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Speaker 1: things when when your market making is we used to

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Speaker 1: have a sign up and it was, you know, more

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Speaker 1: or less when it gets bad, reduce size, widen widen

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Speaker 1: markets and reduced sizes. Well, what does that mean? That

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Speaker 1: means you're providing less liquidity at every given tick, and

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Speaker 1: so you hit these liquidity air pockets in the meme

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Speaker 1: stocks because everybody because it's self reinforcing behavior. And so

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Speaker 1: I do think though, going back to your question, I

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Speaker 1: think I think you do see it's it's if not

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Speaker 1: the same cast of characters, it's it's a similar cast

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Speaker 1: of characters. And and and actually what it means to

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Speaker 1: me is there's probably a fairly fine heite amount of

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Speaker 1: money that's being allocated from one to the next, and

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Speaker 1: so I do think they rotate from one to the other.

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Speaker 1: I think it's quite telling that other than Robin Hood,

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Speaker 1: we don't really have any new lasting additions to the

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Speaker 1: memes stock to my meme stock page. And yes, I

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Speaker 1: do have a meme stock page on my market minder,

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Speaker 1: um as I'm sure you do too at this point. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, other than Robin Hood, which which essentially is

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Speaker 1: the you know, I use the Cisco. The Internet wouldn't

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Speaker 1: exist without Cisco, it's not I'm not sure that the

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Speaker 1: meme stock bubble would exist without Robin Hood. Um. And

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Speaker 1: so you know, they're integral to it. But beyond that,

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Speaker 1: it's not like there's this new class of stocks that

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Speaker 1: developed memes and and I find that there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of fragility there because these are they now in some

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Speaker 1: cases have huge market caps relative to the business that

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Speaker 1: that that underlies them. And you know, it's it's I

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Speaker 1: fear that you get to a moment where it's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, Wiley coyote chasing the road runner and he

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Speaker 1: runs off the cliff and he still keeps running, but

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Speaker 1: at some point, like he looks down and you know,

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Speaker 1: down he goes. And I'm not I'm not wishing that,

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Speaker 1: I'm not predicting that. But it's the longer you stay

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Speaker 1: it really really high valuations relative to relative to fundamentals,

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Speaker 1: the greater the likelihood that that could happen. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: put the road Runner on Bildonna's list to it too

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Speaker 1: as well. But it's a shame to me, Steve to

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Speaker 1: hear you say that these stocks are on the heavy

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Speaker 1: volume list. For you guys, it's because I picture I

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Speaker 1: d k our clients to be. I don't know more

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Speaker 1: of the professional sophisticated set than say it's say a

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Speaker 1: Robin hood, which leads me to believe, I mean people

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Speaker 1: are trying to figure out even the pros I guess

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Speaker 1: they're trying to figure out what to do with these things. Um.

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Speaker 1: And you know, forgot like you who has a background

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Speaker 1: and now goo trading. Um, how does an awgo sort

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Speaker 1: of trained brain approach these things? And I know there's

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Speaker 1: been a lot of work done to try to sort

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Speaker 1: of quantify the sentiment on social media and that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing is that is that the main focus of

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Speaker 1: sort of anyone trying to trade these from a quant

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Speaker 1: or an algo type of perspective is is trying to

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Speaker 1: you know, not have to read every post on Reddit,

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Speaker 1: but try to somehow quantify what's going on. I think

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Speaker 1: that's that's one way to do it, is try to

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Speaker 1: quantify it and see if you can see if you

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Speaker 1: can you know, read in sentiment. It requires a bit

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Speaker 1: of natural language processing, which some people are better at

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Speaker 1: than others. And the simplest algory, of course, is just momentum,

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Speaker 1: you know, trend following and seeing that um, you know,

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Speaker 1: which which um you know is there volume? I might

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Speaker 1: seem volume accumulating at higher and higher prices, which leads

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Speaker 1: me to believe that that that the freight train might

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Speaker 1: be might be gaining steam. Um. And at what point,

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Speaker 1: you know, or at what point does it seem like

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Speaker 1: the volume is petered out? I will say the half

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Speaker 1: life of the meme rallies seems to be shrinking. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're the one that we saw earlier this

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Speaker 1: week kind of petered out relatively quickly, did They didn't

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Speaker 1: give back everything, but they just sort of it was

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Speaker 1: a one day wonder rather than rather than a lasting

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Speaker 1: for any period of time. Um, you know. The but

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Speaker 1: but also also in your question, it's sort of implied

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Speaker 1: that you know, you're surprised that a lot of the

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Speaker 1: customers are doing this, but we have, we do. I

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Speaker 1: would say that we have a more sophisticated customer base

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Speaker 1: than than average. You know, I think a lot of times,

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Speaker 1: even though we have a high retail component, most of

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Speaker 1: our accounts are in fact UM some sort of institutional

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Speaker 1: in terms of money, certainly some sort of institutional or

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Speaker 1: professional UM. And you know what their traders and traders

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Speaker 1: trade where where the action is UM. You know, back

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Speaker 1: in the old days of the option floors, you know,

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Speaker 1: the people would come and go UM to you know,

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Speaker 1: to the pits that had the active that had the

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Speaker 1: active names. You know, in this case you don't have

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Speaker 1: to physically move from one place to the next UM.

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Speaker 1: But you know, people people follow the action. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's whether that's professional or retail. I mean, if

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Speaker 1: you're buying, if you're buy and hold investor, yeah, obviously

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Speaker 1: you're not, you're not chasing these things. But if you're,

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Speaker 1: if you've got any sort of trading mentality, there's there's

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Speaker 1: that's where the volatility is, that's where the money is,

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Speaker 1: and that's where the that's where the that's where the

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Speaker 1: action tends to follow, and that's where the volume tends

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Speaker 1: to follow. Steven. Another one of your notes recently, you

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Speaker 1: wrote about something called Tina fomo and I think this

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Speaker 1: this all sort of ties together. I'm hoping you can

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Speaker 1: sort of break down what what exactly that means, because

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Speaker 1: it's a mingling of two very popular acronyms. Right. I

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Speaker 1: think I dated Tina Fomo when I was living in

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Speaker 1: Philly for a while. I didn't have a lot of

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Speaker 1: other options, though I was gonna say it sounds like

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Speaker 1: a person last name. Yeah. That and there was the

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Speaker 1: construct I actually got to admit I debuted that one

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Speaker 1: when I guess author column Barons about five years ago,

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Speaker 1: but I've I've loved it ever since. And but yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's unpacking. You know, the two most common

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Speaker 1: acronyms to describe the market, you know, Tina being there

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Speaker 1: is no alternative and fomo being the fear of missing out, Um,

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Speaker 1: there is no alternative. Part now, I'm always a believer

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Speaker 1: of that there's some alternative somewhere, but on the whole,

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Speaker 1: I get it. I think there's if you're not unlet

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Speaker 1: if it's very tough to make a case to be

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Speaker 1: in cash that that earns nothing, or to be in

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Speaker 1: fixed income that you know that pays nearly nothing, and

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Speaker 1: neither is has incredibly, if you're gonna go out to credit,

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Speaker 1: if you're gonna credit curve, you're not getting paid a ton.

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Speaker 1: And if you're on the treasury cycle, you're probably you know,

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Speaker 1: it's still almost a negative real interest it's still a

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Speaker 1: negative real interest rate. So I get that. So you're

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Speaker 1: gonna see you're gonna see money moving to risk assets,

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Speaker 1: and you know, in its most extreme form, that's where

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Speaker 1: you get back to the flight to crack. But let's

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Speaker 1: let's keep it more or less into equity. So if

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Speaker 1: you're you know, relatively binary cash bonds versus stocks, you're

427
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 1: gonna be you're gonna be leaning towards stocks, and and

428
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: that there is no alternative part. There is, there's a root,

429
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 1: there's a routing there if you're missing out those purely

430
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: emotional and ultimately, you know, although it has fear in it,

431
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: it's really I think an expression of greed. You know,

432
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 1: it's it's it's envy. Um, it's I don't you know

433
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 1: everybody else is making money why shouldn't I be making

434
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 1: money now? To a professional investor, that's kind of the

435
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 1: way their career runs. Because if you don't sort of

436
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: matt meet or you know, meet your benchmark or or

437
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 1: or be in the top, you know, being that meeting

438
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 1: part of the curve with your peers, if you're not

439
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,439
Speaker 1: gonna if you're not gonna outpace them, um, you know,

440
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: there is career risk. So it's so it's like this

441
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 1: weird fear and fear meets greed um and and that's

442
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: the scarier part because the tina I can kind of quantify,

443
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,400
Speaker 1: you know, we can we can sit here and say

444
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: like what's you know, what's the right level of risk premium?

445
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 1: What you know, what level of yield should we be

446
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: looking for in the sp F versus the ten year

447
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: and have a very you know, high level discussion about

448
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,640
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff and probably have you know, cause

449
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: a lot of people hit the PA you know, the

450
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: pause button because it's dry. Um. The fomo stuff though,

451
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: is very it's it's it's this weird it gets into

452
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: human nature and that's where you get into the crazy stuff.

453
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 1: And that's why I think it's a very dangerous combination.

454
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: Um you know, she's a dangerous She's a dangerous woman.

455
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 1: That ten fomo. Well, you know what, we like to

456
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 1: get into the crazy stuff, Steve. But but one more,

457
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 1: at least one more before we before we get there.

458
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: But I think that, you know, and this may be

459
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: oversimplifying everyone's strategy this year, but at the risk of

460
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 1: oversimplifying it, it seems like, you know, the discussions we've

461
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 1: had all year been, well, do you play the reopening

462
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: stocks you travel, hotel leisure or do you stick with

463
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: the sort of perennial growth names uh in the fang

464
00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: universe uh and tech that sort of thing. UM. I'm curious,

465
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: a is that oversimplifying how we should approach the market? Um?

466
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: Or is there still sort of some juice to squeeze

467
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: from that lemon? And at which side would you squeeze? Now?

468
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: Do you squeeze the reopening or would you you know,

469
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: you you and the stick with growth in tech for

470
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: as long as you can. Um. My, my gut is

471
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 1: typically my gut is more towards the value side than

472
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: the growth side. I think I think that there are

473
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: names out there that are um, you know, that are

474
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 1: high quality. I think right now it's you know, the retailers,

475
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 1: you know, had this big bounce of the last few

476
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: sessions because well, low and behold. If you you know,

477
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: if you give people four checks and then open the stores,

478
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: they're gonna go spend the money. Um. And so you know,

479
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: I'm actually kicking myself, like, you know, why didn't I

480
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: just put all my money into art acts or something

481
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: like that when I when I was walking down broad

482
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: lower Broadway and seeing lines outside all these solo sports, um,

483
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: you know, but that that was that was my big miss.

484
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: Left the money on the table boiler. But and my

485
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: dad was a retail analyst, and so I used to

486
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: have to go to malls with him and like count

487
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: shopping bags and stuff like this. And so I'm really

488
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:13,199
Speaker 1: kicking myself on that one anyway. Um, you know, in

489
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: terms of I look at it now and say, okay,

490
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 1: if I think that, if I think that the FED

491
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: is going to be less aggressive at monetary stimulus, and

492
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: if whatever fiscal stimulus is going to come is going

493
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: to be more in the form of long term infrastructure

494
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: type of place, I'm starting to think about, you know,

495
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,239
Speaker 1: that dirty word of dividends. Um. And I think I

496
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: want I think I want to own some some stocks

497
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 1: that have a little bit of ballast to them um

498
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 1: as opposed to stocks that are more precariously valued. You know,

499
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 1: you had this thing going back and forth where where

500
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: there was this idea, you know what people would would

501
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: sell the d X stocks, you know, sell indie X

502
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: if it fields, if Fields go up, and buy it

503
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: on the inverse, which you know was was all predicated

504
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: on value, you know, on on discounting, on the value

505
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 1: of future cash flows. Just kind of listen. I'm like, really,

506
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: valuation matters to you people, when when you know that's

507
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 1: not that's not really you know, you're you're you're trying

508
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: to trade Amazon on evaluation. Are you know an evaluation argument? Um?

509
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: You know on Facebook? You know that there's plenty of

510
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: reasons too, there's plenty of reasons to invest in these companies.

511
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 1: But it's not because of there. It's not because you know,

512
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: it's not because of you know, a fifteen basis point

513
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 1: move in a tenure um affecting the affecting the long

514
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 1: term cash flows. Um. You know. And so that's why

515
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: I would tend to I've tended to to start to

516
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: look for more, um more of your defensive place you know,

517
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: if if you can earn a couple of if you

518
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: can earn a couple of percent or two or three

519
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: UM and yields, assuming of course that the company UM

520
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: is you know, where it's cash flows can support that

521
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: kind of dividend. UM. I can't give specific recommendations otherwise

522
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 1: my compliance people will have my head. But that's the

523
00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: sort of but that's the sort of theme that I

524
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: think will UM will you know, will benefit investors if

525
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: we start to see some sort of UM, some sort

526
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: of nerves among investors because the FETE is taking their

527
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: foot off the gas, you know, and if I'm sure

528
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: if you do that vetan diagram too, there's a lot

529
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: of overlap between the beneficiaries of infrastructure spending and stocks

530
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: with some good yields at this point. Indeed, there there

531
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: would be you know, or consumer staples that you know,

532
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: that kind of that kind of thing. Again, I can't

533
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: I'm getting a lot of trouble if I throw out

534
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: all the names. But you know, are there's an intelligent

535
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: listenership and I know they'll they'll read between the lines there.

536
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: We don't want to get you in trouble, Well do

537
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: I might want to get you in trouble. I don't know.

538
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: She's a troublemaker for you, maybe less so for me. Yeah,

539
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: strategists gets fired for podcast interview. I mean it would

540
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: be great for our metrics, not not so much for you,

541
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: but so well, we're sympathetic to that. If anyone's gonna

542
00:29:57,440 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: get fired from this podcast, it's gonna be me. Believe me.

543
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: I think we can all agree on that. But the

544
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: dow is Steve gave us the great Timing is everything,

545
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: and Steve gave us a great set up there is literally,

546
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: But I think I think it's not too early to

547
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: to segue into those crazy things we saw this week.

548
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: Soup stand clear of the craziest things we saw in

549
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: markets this week. I'm gonna how about I start. I

550
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: never start usually I saved the best for last um,

551
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: But I'll just go ahead and I'll start this time.

552
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: You save, you save yourself as as last, because you

553
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: like to give yourself the award of crazy thing every week.

554
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: That's true. That's true. You know, it's it's I'm the

555
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: judge and jury here and I just have to I

556
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: have to do the right thing. I mean, you know,

557
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: it's it's a I've lost a few I've lost a few,

558
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: but I like I like my chances this week. So

559
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: in the world of alternative assets, one of my favorite

560
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: things is trading cards. You know, baseball cards, the old

561
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: Onus Wagner card, Babe Ruth, that sort of thing. Michael

562
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: Jordan's Rookie card is a popular one. I bet you

563
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,719
Speaker 1: did not know, Stephen vill Donna, that there are guerrillas,

564
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 1: actual zoo gorillas who have their own trading cards. At

565
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: least the most famous one Harambe, who was the the

566
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: guerrilla who died in two thousand and sixteen and became

567
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: an Internet sensation. Some outfit made a trading card of Harambe. Uh.

568
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: And it's going up for auction on this outfit Golden Auctions,

569
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: which is now my new favorite source for for crazy

570
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: things because this auction house is just filled with them. Um.

571
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: And this story is courtesy I just to give credit

572
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: where it's due. Sam Row of Axios tweeted about it. Uh.

573
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: And it's actually based on an Instagram post from Golden

574
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: Auctions and has actually going up for auction yet, so

575
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: we don't really know what the bidding is gonna look like.

576
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: But I found this same card for sale on eBay

577
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: now granted people who set to buy it now. Uh,

578
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: the ask on eBay might be a little more optimistic,

579
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: uh than is warranted. But I will ask you to

580
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: to tell me, what do you think if you were

581
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: an eBay seller and you were putting the Harambe trading

582
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: card from two thousand and sixteen up for sale on

583
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,719
Speaker 1: eBay and at a buy it now price, very optimistic price,

584
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: I'll throw this factory it out to you too on

585
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: the back of the card. And I did not know this.

586
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: In one poll for the presidential election, Harambee actually got

587
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: five support for president, and this is after he died.

588
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: So I think that tells you more about the two

589
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 1: thousand and sixteen election than than anything else. But well, Donna,

590
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 1: what's your buy it now price? If you're selling the

591
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: Harambe trading card on you? Is there only one? That's

592
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 1: a good question. I do not know how many of

593
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: there are. I will say there's other listings for the

594
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: same card, but UM, I don't know about the condition.

595
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: I think this perhaps this is the most prestine version

596
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: of the card, or perhaps the most delusional seller on

597
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: eBay at the moment. I'll leave it at that, But

598
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: what's your what's your buy it now price for Harrambe

599
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: trading card. I'm going to go with fifteen thousand, yes, okay,

600
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: how about you, Steve, I'm gonna go with nine thousand,

601
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: spot nine nine. That's a pretty good good guesses, Steve,

602
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: I would tell you there actually was. There's another Harambe

603
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: card up for that price, but the highest one is

604
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: up for twenty tho. I will call it a push

605
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: between you two. The highest by now, prist, I definitely win.

606
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: She's she's five thousand dollars closer, all right. I was

607
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: just being played. But there and there's one up for

608
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 1: like even less than that. But I don't know. We'll

609
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: have to check back and see what it actually sells for.

610
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: I'm skeptical it'll actually go for twenty grand. But in

611
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: this world, maybe someone will buy it, take a photo

612
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: of it, and make an n f T out of it,

613
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: and sell it for ten million. I think is that's

614
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: the player and exactly what I was about to say.

615
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: And that's actually my craziest thing. It's it's part of

616
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: you know, some some of the things I've been reporting

617
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: in regards to some of the prices that we've seen

618
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: for some of these n f t s and then

619
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: I saw so if I can give one example, I

620
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: spoke with somebody who owns a pudgy penguin, which is

621
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: like super super popular. They're really cute. They have these

622
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: cute little outfits. It's just a cartoon of a penguin. Basically,

623
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 1: it's an n f T um. This guy I spoke

624
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: with bought it for and like four days later it

625
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: was worth over seven thousand dollars. So that's why I

626
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: don't think is too crazy for this baseball card. Umbe. Yes, yeah,

627
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 1: it is a it's a very attractive portrait of Harrumbe

628
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: on the card. I gotta say it looks like he

629
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: posed for it. There's he's got this very uh it

630
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: looks like something Steve and it is biography photo for

631
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: his job. Would would have a nice thoughtful pose. And

632
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: but there is there is one other crazy thing which

633
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: is along the same lines. I'm grouping them all together

634
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 1: for me here in my bid to win this week's

635
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,240
Speaker 1: Best Best Craziest Thing award. So there was a CNBC

636
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:10,760
Speaker 1: headline that said somebody just paid one point three million

637
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: dollars for a picture of a rock. So if you

638
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: have that going on one point three million dollars. Let

639
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 1: me have the punchy penguins. Do they only exist in

640
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 1: the n f T universe? Was that they were not

641
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: something that's been turned into n f T s. They're

642
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: not a cartoon or something. I mistered know. They exist

643
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: as n f T s. There's eight thousand, eight hundred

644
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: eight of them. They were all sold out, and I

645
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: really I do have to say they're supremely cute. Okay,

646
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 1: well that that's fair. Then if they're supremely cute, my

647
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 1: question regarding the Harambe card is will it be one

648
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: of the A M c apes who ends up buying?

649
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: That's my guess. Yeah, it must have been that. I

650
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: think that's who the bidders are. And that thing for sure.

651
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: They referenced Harambe a lot. They're big, they're needles to

652
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 1: say they're big Harambe fans on four gonna lead you

653
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: know you. I was gonna go either with the pudgy

654
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: penguin or the pet rock. And I even consulted, you know,

655
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: so great minds think alike. I did consult my son,

656
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 1: who's literally he does marketing for cryptocurrency companies. He's got

657
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: a he's a comedian. He's actually a stand up comedian,

658
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: but he hasn't made it big enough yet to not

659
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: get rid of his day job. But his day job

660
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: went from s a T tutoring to doing freelance marketing

661
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 1: for crypto companies. And so I asked him, because he's

662
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 1: very plugged into this world, and he basically said, you know,

663
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 1: the pudgy penguin thing has gotta be gotta be your

664
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: go to because you know, he's been seeing sort of

665
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,919
Speaker 1: the on Twitter, like I can't believe I spent five

666
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: thousand dollars on a on a penguin avatar, and you know,

667
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: he he, you know, he kind of went and went

668
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: into this with me when I asked him over the

669
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,919
Speaker 1: you know, the last couple of days, and that one

670
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 1: that to me. So I'm gonna I have to I

671
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 1: have to vote with the donna because you know, she

672
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 1: and I were do you and I we're treading the

673
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,399
Speaker 1: same ground on that one. Does your son own one

674
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: of the puddect penguins? He does not. He um. He

675
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,720
Speaker 1: gets paid in crypto um, but he um. He tries

676
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: to convert it because he has to pay. He has

677
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: to do things like pay rent and you know, and

678
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: and and little things like that. Um, he actually did

679
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: do a video where he went around New York trying

680
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,799
Speaker 1: to spend a hundred dollars in crypto harder than you

681
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 1: think off to check that out. That sounds good. Well,

682
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 1: that's all I keep thinking about with all this, Steve

683
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 1: is you know the old joke that in the gold

684
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 1: Rush it was the people selling the picks and shovels

685
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: that we're the only ones to get rich. So I

686
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 1: imagine in the crypto thing, the marketing people are are

687
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: could be the equivalent of that in this So I

688
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: think that's a good uh. I think he's in the

689
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 1: right place. I think in video is more the pick

690
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 1: and shovel but true, true, true, good point. All right,

691
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: well I'll take the all on that, and you can

692
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: both see if you both came up with the podgy penguin.

693
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: I I can't, I can't beat that, although Hormbey card,

694
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:04,879
Speaker 1: we have to see, we'll have to see which ends

695
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: up being more valuable, harrumby training card or the pudgy penguin.

696
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: N f T. Who would have ever thought words like

697
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: that would be coming out of my mouth on a

698
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:20,959
Speaker 1: financial news podcast. But here we are Wildanna hire Steve.

699
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for your time. Hopefully we can do

700
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: it again my pleasure. I look forward to the opportunity

701
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: and I had a great time with you guys. Thank

702
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:38,399
Speaker 1: you so much for having me What Goes Up. We'll

703
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 1: be back next week and so that you can find

704
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 1: us on the Bloomberg Terminal, website and app where wherever

705
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,839
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. We love it if you took

706
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: the time to review and rate the show on Apple

707
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: podcast so more listeners can find us. And you can

708
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter, follow me at Reaganonymous. Bildana Hirich

709
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: is at Bildonna hi Rich. You can also follow Bloomberg

710
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,760
Speaker 1: Podcasts at podcasts and thank you to Charlie Pader, Bloomberg

711
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: Radio and the voice of the New York City Subway System.

712
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 1: What Goes Up is produced by Toph Forhez. The head

713
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: of Bloomberg Podcasts is Francesco Levie. Thanks for listening. See

714
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: you next time.