WEBVTT - Nigel Farage Talks Elon Musk, UK Economy, and Trump's Second Term 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:07.280 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:11.159 Hello and welcome to the Bloomberg UK Politics podcast. I'm 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:14.320 Caroline Hepge and today on this episode, I'm joined by 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:18.080 Bloomberg's financial reporter Will Shaw for a conversation with the 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:22.200 Reform UK leader Nigel Farage. Welcome to Bloomberg, and thank 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:23.320 you so much for your time. 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:24.000 Good to be here. 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:27.080 So you're the architect of Brexit, of course well known 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:29.720 to many. You have now won a seat in the 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:34.400 British Parliament after eight attempts. Your party is sitting just 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:37.839 below the ruling Labor Party in the polls here in Britain, 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:41.479 and you are poised to go to the inauguration of 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.760 the US President Donald Trump despite a recent row with 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:49.080 Trump advisor and perhaps hoped for Donut Elon Musk. But 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:51.800 today I want to spend a bit of time with 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:55.600 Will and you, Nigel, talking about where the Reform UK 0:00:56.000 --> 0:01:01.600 has the kind of long running the kinds of answers 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:04.840 to the long running economic challenges that Britain really has 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:08.240 that we've seen in the recent GDP figures, in the 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:13.600 concerns around stagflation. You're finally an MP, though scoring highly 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:16.560 in the polls, the political mood across Europe has moved 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:17.240 in your favor. 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:19.800 You must feel like you've really made it. 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:22.800 Now what about made it? And by the way, thank you, 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:26.160 it was a very accurate introduction. We're doing well, We're 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:28.920 on the up and you know why, because we're optimistic. 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:32.319 You come to a reform meeting. I've done four rallies 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:36.000 this year already, all complete sellouts of our members around 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:39.479 the country, and I'll expand that to big public rallies 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:42.160 as the year goes on. And it's like the rock concert. 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:47.840 They're not depressed. They actually believe that with the right leadership, 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:50.080 with the right vision, with the right courage, we can 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:52.600 turn the country around. So yeah, we are very upbeat 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:57.040 at the moment. I think the Unior Party, if I 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:03.080 can call them that, just look labor look morose, The 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:06.720 Conservatives bitterly divided. I mean they still all hate each other. 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:11.320 So there is a massive gap there in British politics. 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:13.280 And you know in your intro you made the point. 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.200 It's very good point. Do reform have the right economic 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:19.720 answers and social answers to the problems we're in? Well, 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:23.800 you can't find the answers until you first identified the problem, 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:27.119 and I think we've had so many policy missteps over 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:29.680 the last couple of decades, and I think the parties 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.000 are kind of say, wedded to what they've done already 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:34.320 that I don't believe they're in a fit state to 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:34.840 put us right. 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.080 You've only got five MP's in Parliament overall, though, so 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:38.760 you're still quite a. 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:41.400 Joy is of the first part of the post electoral systems? Yes? 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:42.399 Absolutely. 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:47.000 But perhaps one of the key issues, of course is 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:49.120 you know you're going to Washington. We know that the 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:53.760 Labor Party has appointed Peter Mandelson as ambassied Ambassador to Washington. 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:57.519 I suppose the first thing that I'd like to understand 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:00.760 is whether you've spoken to Manderson where you've got plans, 0:03:01.320 --> 0:03:03.680 you know, to try to help Manus well get the 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:05.040 best deal for Britain. 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:08.120 Look, I don't discuss private conversations I have with people, 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:09.839 and never have done, never will do, which is why, 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:11.880 by the way, I'm trusted and I've survived twenty five 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:13.880 years in this game. What I will say is this, 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:16.919 and I've said it publicly and I've said this privately 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:21.920 to the most senior Labor figures, that it isn't just 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:24.639 Trump that I've known for a long time and get 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:27.000 on very well, which you know, which I do. Half 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:29.160 his cabinet. I know, some of them are good friends. 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:33.040 You know, this whole movement. You know, they are people 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:36.520 I've worked with for a long long time. So if 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:38.880 there's anything I can do for example, well, so. 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:41.200 So you must know Lord Mandelsson very well. Obviously he's 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:44.040 a veteran politician. So what do you think of his appointment? 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:46.840 And can you wish Madison and I were in Brussels 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:48.160 at the same time, Yes, you know when he was 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:48.760 a commissioner. 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:48.840 That. 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:56.160 Look, Madison is bright and clever, wily possibly too. Nobody 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:58.520 could ever doubt that Mandelsson is not a good operator. 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:01.240 I mean he was part of the genius behind you know, 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.160 new Labor and the rebranding of the party. All I 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:07.000 would say is this that if you really want to 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:10.360 get on with the Trump administration, you need somebody who 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:13.960 is an entrepreneur. You need somebody who's a businessman or businesswoman. 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:17.200 You need someone who thinks outside the box. And kind 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:20.120 of what we're doing is we're going down the traditional 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:23.840 Foreign Office governmental route of appointing somebody from within our 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:26.960 governing circles, and I think we could do better. 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:29.880 I mean, look, you know you're obviously at odds with 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:33.880 the labor governments. Yes, are you going to work together 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:34.920 with Peter Mandelsson? 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:36.200 And will you brief. 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:38.520 Against him and the labor government Donald Trump? 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.080 If you differ on I will get back to the 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:46.119 original question. I've said privately and publicly to senior labor 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:51.359 figures that if they need help with the relationship, particularly 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:55.400 in terms of negotiating tariffs or maybe sexual free trade agreements, 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:57.919 which I do believe are possible with the Trump regime, 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:00.159 I of course would help because that is in the 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:04.600 national interest. And I have to say, sitting here this 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:08.680 morning with you, how relieved I am that the Chagos 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:13.200 Island surrender of sovereignty as I see it, isn't going 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.120 through before the inauguration. I think if that had happened, 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:18.640 we would be in a very, very bad place. So 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:21.680 we've got a bit of a reprieve. And remember that 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:25.000 Trump is the most instinctively pro British president we've seen 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:28.000 for decades, and we ought to use that to our advantage. 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:30.240 How does that really translate though, in terms of how 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:32.680 hard Trump is going to be on taris globally and 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:33.480 especially in the UK. 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:38.560 I can tell you that in twenty sixteen and pass 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:42.440 the inauguration into the early part of twenty seventeen, the 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:46.560 team around Trump were really anxious to get a trade 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.960 deal with the UK and to do it as quickly 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:53.840 as possible. Why they wanted to show that they're not protectionists. 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:57.479 They believe in fair competition, but not as they see 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:01.320 an unfair competition with China other countries that undercut them 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:04.640 on wages, on environmental standards and everything else. So of 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:07.280 course we couldn't do it because we were still part 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:10.440 of the European Union. But now we're freed. We're not 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:13.360 part of the EU's Common Commercial Policy. We can negotiate 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:17.120 our own trade deals. These are the prizes that are 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:21.520 on offer. But you know, if the Prime Minister wants 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:24.120 to have a reset with the European Union and get 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:28.000 closer to the failing economically European Union, it's going to 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:29.000 be very difficult. 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:33.600 If we turn to Elon Musk So I thought you 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:37.240 about it. Yeah, Joe Biden was speaking overnight. He warns 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:41.040 Americans of a dangerous concentration of power in the hands 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.520 of a very few ultra wealthy people that he feared 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:48.719 could have an impact on the country's democracy through your 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.479 friendship with Elon Musk, is there a risk of you 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:55.120 introducing a similar threat into the UK in terms of 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:59.039 like the interests of one very very rich, tach billionaire 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:03.920 and his concern and taking a priority over the concerns 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:07.320 of regular voters, and you know, the potential of someone 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:10.480 being seen to try and buy an election in the UK. 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:15.840 Well, first things first, I think Biden's record on defending 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:19.080 the American constitution, on the way that he used the 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:23.280 judicial system, that doesn't bear much scrutiny. I think things 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:26.760 went backwards during Biden's time and we concentrated so much 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:30.160 power in Biden's hands that he gave Afghanistan back to 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:32.320 the Taliban. So you know, we can throw this stuff 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:38.120 back and forth. In America, you know, billionaires have more 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:41.760 influence over society than mid Dow in Britain as culturally, 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:45.760 there's no question about that. Musk is a very powerful figure, 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:48.960 but that there's no doubt. But I also think he's 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:51.680 a hero. I mean, if you think back to the 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:55.240 last election in twenty twenty in America where the hunter 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:59.520 Biden laptop was there. The evidence was clear of criminality 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:01.720 for which he now been convicted in one or two things. 0:08:02.120 --> 0:08:04.400 The evidence was all sorts of things were there that 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:08.679 deserved to be in the public domain, especially his father's 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:14.000 close relationship and telephone calls with That's a separate issue, isn't. No, 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:17.400 it isn't at all. I tell you why all the 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:22.360 social media channels forbade any conversation about that subject. The 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:25.800 Americans had an election with no debate on this issue. 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:30.040 Mask has come along and bought Twitter, albeit for quite 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:33.360 a high price, and free speech is coming back to 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:36.120 America and the Western world. You've even seen Meta in 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:39.080 this week. I'm an extraordinary u turn that has been made. 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:41.880 So Mask is a forced for good in terms of 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.480 open democratic argument. When it comes to power influence, I 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:49.800 think the important thing. The important thing is he mustn't 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:54.760 be seen himself to be dictating what the Treasury Department do, 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:55.880 and that is important. 0:08:56.120 --> 0:08:58.320 A lot of people would disagree with the point around, 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:02.840 you know, free to speech, particularly the Europeans are deeply 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:04.080 concerned about misinformation. 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:11.320 The wee misinformation. I know, yes, yes, yes, we must 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:14.480 all support globalism, we must all support open borders. If 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:16.600 we don't. It's misinformation. I don't buy it. 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:21.640 On Elon Musk with him and the other tech billionaires 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:25.400 who support visas for highly skilled workers into the US, 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.680 that's pitting them against the MAGA movement and people like 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:33.720 Steve Balon who are opposed immigration much more broadly. 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:36.840 Who is right in that debate? Well, I'll talk from 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:40.160 a UK perspective. You know, we've always favored I've always 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:42.839 favored high skilled immigration, people that come in our net, 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:47.559 contributors to the country, and crucially who integrate to greater 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.800 or lesser extent in our culture, our values. I've never 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.880 had a problem with that. But of course we've done 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:56.000 the opposite to that. Isn't it amazing of the last 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:59.600 three million people that settled here in Britain from outside 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:03.000 the E the last three million twenty two percent of rimwork, 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:08.160 only twenty two percent of RIM work. So how you 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:13.160 manage immigration is becoming an increasingly crucial political issue. Bannon 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:17.280 is sort of almost saying no immigration into America. I 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:20.839 tell you what, if we want the city of London 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.880 where we're sitting right now, if we want our tech 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.360 sector to be a world leader, if we want to 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:30.240 turn this place into one of the crypto trading centers 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:32.599 of the world, all those things. There's a lot we 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:34.280 can do with British people, but we will need some 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.400 highly skilled people from other parts of the world. I 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:37.680 have no problem with that. Adult. 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:40.720 The issue with that though, in terms of the immigration debate, 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.120 is this. On the one hand, your manifesto ahead of 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.000 the election last year talks about freezing immigration. 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:48.640 No no, no, no, no no no. Hang on, how amazing. 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.200 Hang on. Let's just be clear about what we're talking about. 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:54.640 There are always people leaving the country. You know. You 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:57.600 set a three bed semi in the suburbs of London 0:10:58.040 --> 0:10:59.280 and you can go and live in Spain for the 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:01.079 rest of your life, Portugal for the rest of your life, 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.000 or whatever it may be. What we're talking about is 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:08.640 not to have overall population explosion due to immigration. So 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:11.080 there's still plenty of room for people to come on 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:14.640 either work visas or in some cases come to saddle. 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:17.080 So I'm not you know, we are not putting up 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.560 the barriers entirely. What we are saying is that low 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:25.600 skilled migration and those people bring independents has net been 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:27.120 a negative for the UK economy. 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.120 How is that any different from the policy that the 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:31.960 last well this government and the previous government have tried 0:11:32.000 --> 0:11:32.880 to enact because. 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:34.840 That's what they told people in manifestos and then did 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:37.320 the complete opposite, which is why we're doing well in 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:40.800 the polls. Trust has gone. Don't forget. Don't forget. The 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:45.440 Conservative Party in twenty ten, twenty fifteen, twenty seventeen, specifically 0:11:45.520 --> 0:11:48.360 in the manifesto said net migration of tens of thousands 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:51.240 a year. In twenty nineteen, we've got control of our 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:54.280 borders backwre Brexit numbers will be lower, and the twenty 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.160 twenty three number before the revision and by the way, 0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:02.240 all the revisions are upwards, is nearly a million. This 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:07.000 is this is where we are the biggest problem that 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:09.240 those two traditional parties have is trust. 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.720 If we turn to the UK economy, and Britain obviously 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:18.560 has got deep seated and long running economic problems. Those 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:22.600 have asserted themselves in recent days in the turbulence in 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:27.680 financial markets. How would you create economic growth in Britain? 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:31.200 Everybody says they want to achieve that, it seems exceptionally 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:34.520 hard to actually make it happen. How would you bring 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:34.839 that back? 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:37.320 I mean Rachel from Accounts is not going to achieve 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:39.720 that is she? I mean clearly utterly clueless. I thought 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.720 that from the start, actually utterly clueless, completely out of 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:43.160 a depth. 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.160 And there seems to be they want in a landslide election. 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:48.240 Well they did it, but but it wasn't really it 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:50.199 wasn't really a pro labor vote was it was just 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:54.080 an anti Tory vote that dominated the election. And remember this, 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:57.280 it was a fairly loveless victory and they only got 0:12:57.280 --> 0:12:59.040 a third of the votes and two thirds of the seats. 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:03.280 Again we're back to our friend, the electoral system. I 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:08.720 was amazed how little scrutiny Labour's economic plans came under 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.480 in the run up. What is clear is this, What 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:15.240 is absolutely clear is this. They are increasing the size 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:20.120 of the public sector and the measures they've taken is 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.000 already even before April the first, when all this really 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:26.400 kicks in decreasing the size of the private sector. And 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:30.160 there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding on the center 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:33.760 left of British politics as to how economics works. If 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:37.679 you don't create private sector wealth, you are doomed. So 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:39.839 she can talk, as she did when she came back 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:42.440 from China on Monday, of this week, she can say 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:46.040 growth is our number one priority. Everything they're doing is 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.240 anti growth, including the key component, and the key component 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.839 is confidence, and there isn't any If we. 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:55.320 Look at the reform manifesto, it talks about a department 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:59.280 saving fifty billion pounds a year by cutting wasteful spending 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:04.040 PROXY and improving procurements. So that would be about ten 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:08.640 percent of departmental budgets every year for five years. How 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:11.200 would you bring that about with that huge cuts to 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:12.800 the NHS education. 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:15.000 It's very interesting you raised that. It's very interesting you 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:17.680 raised that because that was part of our contract that 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.680 we put out with the people. We were told it's impossible, nonsense, 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:23.960 it would be massive cuts to frontline services. Guess what, 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.960 it's now government policy. So we're very good at leading 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:30.680 arguments on this. What I have no doubt about, and 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:33.680 this is going to be difficult for some industries to accept, 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:35.760 and I think that could be the next big battle 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.240 with the trade unions will be over the use of AI, 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.800 the use of advanced technology and how actually we can 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:45.680 increase productivity with fewer human beings. And therein lies your 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:48.040 real answer. And I think what you're going to see 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.080 with Musk. You know, if he's fully focused on doje 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:56.080 this project in America, you will see technology increasingly replacing 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.320 a lot of human beings and that never all through 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:01.960 the history of modern mankind. That never comes without something 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:02.400 of a fight. 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:07.680 But is your economic tender actually a real plan, because 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:11.000 you're also promising one and a half percent extra growth 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:14.080 in terms of what can be delivered to the economy 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.440 as well as that fifty billion pounds in expended cults. 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:17.280 I mean partly. 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:21.480 You know, the issue is that the government is already 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:24.560 in trouble with its own fiscal policies for exactly that reason. 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.600 And are you going to be able to convince the 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.120 bond markets anymore? I mean one and a half percent 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:32.080 in terms of extra economic growth is pretty much the 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:33.520 same as what Liz Trust was offering. 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:36.520 Well, let's put it like this. What we have right now, 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:39.360 and not just the rich leaving London and leaving our 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:43.760 big cities, which they are in their thousands people are relocating, 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:49.920 we're also losing the thirty something entrepreneurs they're going. They 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:52.800 can't see any prospect of Britain being a pro business community. 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:56.840 And I returned to that word confidence. You know that 0:15:56.880 --> 0:15:59.480 there are things that make markets work at times that 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.400 you can't a ways rationalized. But it's about confidence, it's 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:06.160 about optimists, it's about optimism, it's about direction. And I 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:08.200 would say this to you. Do you know there's not 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:11.360 a single person on the labor front, Bak, not one 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:14.400 who's ever set up or worked in private business, not one. 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:18.240 The tour is not much better. And what we're saying 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:21.119 is that we are and we're not Elon Muss billionaires. 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:24.120 But what we're saying is we're a practical group of 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:28.000 people who have among us several successful business people. I 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:30.640 think we've got more idea of what makes the economy 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:33.280 tick than either the current labor or Tory parties. 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:36.440 Yeah, confidence is a very difficult thing obviously to gauge 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.440 and to inspire and quite quick to sort of disappear. 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:43.120 But the thing about your economic policy, can you sell 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:46.760 this to voters? Can you actually sell a plan that 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:50.080 is promising a lot of growth which may or may 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:53.160 not happen. But he is definitely offering enormous tax cuts 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:54.760 now which definitely brings in. 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.160 Less the timing cuts to the revenue. 0:16:57.240 --> 0:16:58.840 Well, let's be clear about the tax and with. 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:01.720 Bond markets, by that and also that it does mean 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:04.280 effectively cutting the size of the state, and that is 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:06.040 definitely not clear in your manifesto. 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:07.600 You know there's four point. 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.840 Two million adults now on health related benefits in the UK. 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.240 Do they have to go back to work? I mean will. 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:17.359 Carrying to inform uk wor we need carrots and sticks, right? 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:20.280 But does the electric know that that's actually the stick? 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:23.600 Hang on the carrots very easy. The big tax cut 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:26.480 we want is to raise the threshold of which you 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:29.200 start paying tax up from twelve and a half thousand 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:31.800 a year to twenty thousand a year. That is the 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:32.400 big that. 0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:35.600 Is enormously costly. You cannot do that. It massive cuts 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:36.040 to government. 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:40.800 That is enormously costly unless what it does is give 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:44.760 people on benefits the real incentive to go back to work. 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:46.320 Because the number of doors I've not so. 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:49.080 How is that electorally possible? It's a little bit like 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:52.399 have you a malaise plan? It is very difficult to 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:54.200 sell that to a broad sway. 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:57.080 The vice I would say to London based media come 0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:59.600 out and knock on doors in the poorer parts of 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:02.320 the country because the number of people that have told 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:04.840 me to my face you know, I want to go 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:07.439 to work. I want us to be better off as 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:09.600 a household. But as soon as I work more than 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:12.000 sixteen hours a week, I lose all of my benefits. 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:13.560 There is this terrible welfare trap. 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.360 So you think that that tough message of get back 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:19.359 to work is actually very palatable to the British population. 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:23.320 For example, you know the star I mentioned Argentina, have 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:26.399 you Melley, which again by the Republicans and Donald Trumpandi 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:29.080 and Alomas think that that has been immensely successful, and 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:30.680 a lot of markets that might agree. 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:32.480 I do, yeah, and you do too. 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:36.840 The cost of that economic success that is not as 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:41.560 well touted is that poverty within Argentina has jumped from 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:44.000 forty percent of the population to fifty percent of the population. 0:18:44.200 --> 0:18:45.399 That is the cost of doing that. 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:46.879 Well, what I'm trying to do is keep people a 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.000 way out of povercy by making work pay. And I 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:51.840 accept that it comes at a big initial cost. 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:54.360 I absolute accept a big initial cost on day one. 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:57.840 Absolutely no, I absolutely accept that. But I also think 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.800 the stick, Yeah, there has to be a stick. I mean, 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:04.800 what is all this nonsense about four day weeks work 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:05.240 from home? 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:07.840 And how can it be to Umber ten on that 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:11.080 promise to the electorate that you have to get back 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:14.639 to work. Anybody who's suffering from depression, who has you know, 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.800 benefits coming in, you have to give that very hard. 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:21.640 Would they vote about the working population? What about those 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:24.640 people I see on the m twenty five at half 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:28.520 past five on a Monday morning, right hang on heading 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:32.000 off to work, working much longer hours than their parents 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:35.520 or grandparents ever did, paying ever higher burdens of town. 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:37.760 What about them? No one ever talks about them, No 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:40.560 one ever talks about hard working Britain and the burdens 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.359 they're under. And you know what, I think they'll vote 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:45.480 for us, I really really do. And I think you'll 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:49.080 find there are people on benefits who know they shouldn't 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:52.199 be on benefits, who will see what we want to 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:54.399 do as being a way to help them to be 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:54.760 better off. 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:57.960 But if your voters had the manifesto, which you call 0:19:57.960 --> 0:19:59.720 a contract with voters. 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:02.000 As well as we have, do. 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:04.400 You think that that is actually what is being communicated 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:05.480 on the doorsteps. 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:09.240 It's more devoted for us. I suppose we need a 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:11.960 bit of honesty about this. Why don't we Why don't 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:13.959 we tell young people at the university in the school 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:17.240 that actually the only way you will ever succeed in 0:20:17.280 --> 0:20:19.680 work in life is to work hard. That hard work 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:22.640 is good. Success is good, making money is good. We 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:23.960 need a change of culture. 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:27.560 The people, the people that you're talking about meeting on 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:32.560 knocking doors. Of course, that's extremely important. Those people do 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.119 need the numbers to add up if your policy is 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:37.119 going to work and it is going to benefit. The 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:41.320 memorial terms the ifs said of the proposals in the 0:20:41.359 --> 0:20:45.240