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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the Bloomberg UK Politics podcast. I'm

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Speaker 2: Caroline Hepge and today on this episode, I'm joined by

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg's financial reporter Will Shaw for a conversation with the

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Speaker 2: Reform UK leader Nigel Farage. Welcome to Bloomberg, and thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for your time.

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Speaker 1: Good to be here.

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Speaker 2: So you're the architect of Brexit, of course well known

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Speaker 2: to many. You have now won a seat in the

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Speaker 2: British Parliament after eight attempts. Your party is sitting just

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Speaker 2: below the ruling Labor Party in the polls here in Britain,

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Speaker 2: and you are poised to go to the inauguration of

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Speaker 2: the US President Donald Trump despite a recent row with

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Speaker 2: Trump advisor and perhaps hoped for Donut Elon Musk. But

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Speaker 2: today I want to spend a bit of time with

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Speaker 2: Will and you, Nigel, talking about where the Reform UK

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Speaker 2: has the kind of long running the kinds of answers

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Speaker 2: to the long running economic challenges that Britain really has

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Speaker 2: that we've seen in the recent GDP figures, in the

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Speaker 2: concerns around stagflation. You're finally an MP, though scoring highly

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Speaker 2: in the polls, the political mood across Europe has moved

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Speaker 2: in your favor.

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Speaker 3: You must feel like you've really made it.

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Speaker 1: Now what about made it? And by the way, thank you,

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Speaker 1: it was a very accurate introduction. We're doing well, We're

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Speaker 1: on the up and you know why, because we're optimistic.

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Speaker 1: You come to a reform meeting. I've done four rallies

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Speaker 1: this year already, all complete sellouts of our members around

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Speaker 1: the country, and I'll expand that to big public rallies

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Speaker 1: as the year goes on. And it's like the rock concert.

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Speaker 1: They're not depressed. They actually believe that with the right leadership,

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Speaker 1: with the right vision, with the right courage, we can

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Speaker 1: turn the country around. So yeah, we are very upbeat

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Speaker 1: at the moment. I think the Unior Party, if I

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Speaker 1: can call them that, just look labor look morose, The

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Speaker 1: Conservatives bitterly divided. I mean they still all hate each other.

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Speaker 1: So there is a massive gap there in British politics.

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Speaker 1: And you know in your intro you made the point.

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Speaker 1: It's very good point. Do reform have the right economic

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Speaker 1: answers and social answers to the problems we're in? Well,

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Speaker 1: you can't find the answers until you first identified the problem,

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Speaker 1: and I think we've had so many policy missteps over

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Speaker 1: the last couple of decades, and I think the parties

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Speaker 1: are kind of say, wedded to what they've done already

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Speaker 1: that I don't believe they're in a fit state to

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Speaker 1: put us right.

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Speaker 2: You've only got five MP's in Parliament overall, though, so

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Speaker 2: you're still quite a.

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Speaker 1: Joy is of the first part of the post electoral systems? Yes?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: But perhaps one of the key issues, of course is

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Speaker 2: you know you're going to Washington. We know that the

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Speaker 2: Labor Party has appointed Peter Mandelson as ambassied Ambassador to Washington.

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Speaker 2: I suppose the first thing that I'd like to understand

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Speaker 2: is whether you've spoken to Manderson where you've got plans,

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Speaker 2: you know, to try to help Manus well get the

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Speaker 2: best deal for Britain.

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Speaker 1: Look, I don't discuss private conversations I have with people,

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Speaker 1: and never have done, never will do, which is why,

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Speaker 1: by the way, I'm trusted and I've survived twenty five

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Speaker 1: years in this game. What I will say is this,

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Speaker 1: and I've said it publicly and I've said this privately

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Speaker 1: to the most senior Labor figures, that it isn't just

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Speaker 1: Trump that I've known for a long time and get

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Speaker 1: on very well, which you know, which I do. Half

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Speaker 1: his cabinet. I know, some of them are good friends.

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Speaker 1: You know, this whole movement. You know, they are people

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Speaker 1: I've worked with for a long long time. So if

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Speaker 1: there's anything I can do for example, well, so.

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Speaker 2: So you must know Lord Mandelsson very well. Obviously he's

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Speaker 2: a veteran politician. So what do you think of his appointment?

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Speaker 1: And can you wish Madison and I were in Brussels

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Speaker 1: at the same time, Yes, you know when he was

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Speaker 1: a commissioner.

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Speaker 2: That.

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Speaker 1: Look, Madison is bright and clever, wily possibly too. Nobody

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Speaker 1: could ever doubt that Mandelsson is not a good operator.

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Speaker 1: I mean he was part of the genius behind you know,

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Speaker 1: new Labor and the rebranding of the party. All I

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Speaker 1: would say is this that if you really want to

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Speaker 1: get on with the Trump administration, you need somebody who

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Speaker 1: is an entrepreneur. You need somebody who's a businessman or businesswoman.

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Speaker 1: You need someone who thinks outside the box. And kind

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Speaker 1: of what we're doing is we're going down the traditional

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Speaker 1: Foreign Office governmental route of appointing somebody from within our

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Speaker 1: governing circles, and I think we could do better.

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Speaker 4: I mean, look, you know you're obviously at odds with

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Speaker 4: the labor governments. Yes, are you going to work together

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Speaker 4: with Peter Mandelsson?

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Speaker 1: And will you brief.

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Speaker 4: Against him and the labor government Donald Trump?

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Speaker 1: If you differ on I will get back to the

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Speaker 1: original question. I've said privately and publicly to senior labor

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Speaker 1: figures that if they need help with the relationship, particularly

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Speaker 1: in terms of negotiating tariffs or maybe sexual free trade agreements,

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Speaker 1: which I do believe are possible with the Trump regime,

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Speaker 1: I of course would help because that is in the

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Speaker 1: national interest. And I have to say, sitting here this

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Speaker 1: morning with you, how relieved I am that the Chagos

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Speaker 1: Island surrender of sovereignty as I see it, isn't going

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Speaker 1: through before the inauguration. I think if that had happened,

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Speaker 1: we would be in a very, very bad place. So

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Speaker 1: we've got a bit of a reprieve. And remember that

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Speaker 1: Trump is the most instinctively pro British president we've seen

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Speaker 1: for decades, and we ought to use that to our advantage.

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Speaker 2: How does that really translate though, in terms of how

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Speaker 2: hard Trump is going to be on taris globally and

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Speaker 2: especially in the UK.

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Speaker 1: I can tell you that in twenty sixteen and pass

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Speaker 1: the inauguration into the early part of twenty seventeen, the

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Speaker 1: team around Trump were really anxious to get a trade

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Speaker 1: deal with the UK and to do it as quickly

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Speaker 1: as possible. Why they wanted to show that they're not protectionists.

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Speaker 1: They believe in fair competition, but not as they see

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Speaker 1: an unfair competition with China other countries that undercut them

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Speaker 1: on wages, on environmental standards and everything else. So of

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Speaker 1: course we couldn't do it because we were still part

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Speaker 1: of the European Union. But now we're freed. We're not

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Speaker 1: part of the EU's Common Commercial Policy. We can negotiate

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Speaker 1: our own trade deals. These are the prizes that are

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Speaker 1: on offer. But you know, if the Prime Minister wants

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Speaker 1: to have a reset with the European Union and get

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Speaker 1: closer to the failing economically European Union, it's going to

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Speaker 1: be very difficult.

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Speaker 4: If we turn to Elon Musk So I thought you

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Speaker 4: about it. Yeah, Joe Biden was speaking overnight. He warns

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Speaker 4: Americans of a dangerous concentration of power in the hands

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Speaker 4: of a very few ultra wealthy people that he feared

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Speaker 4: could have an impact on the country's democracy through your

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Speaker 4: friendship with Elon Musk, is there a risk of you

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Speaker 4: introducing a similar threat into the UK in terms of

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Speaker 4: like the interests of one very very rich, tach billionaire

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Speaker 4: and his concern and taking a priority over the concerns

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Speaker 4: of regular voters, and you know, the potential of someone

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Speaker 4: being seen to try and buy an election in the UK.

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Speaker 1: Well, first things first, I think Biden's record on defending

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Speaker 1: the American constitution, on the way that he used the

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Speaker 1: judicial system, that doesn't bear much scrutiny. I think things

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Speaker 1: went backwards during Biden's time and we concentrated so much

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Speaker 1: power in Biden's hands that he gave Afghanistan back to

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Speaker 1: the Taliban. So you know, we can throw this stuff

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Speaker 1: back and forth. In America, you know, billionaires have more

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Speaker 1: influence over society than mid Dow in Britain as culturally,

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Speaker 1: there's no question about that. Musk is a very powerful figure,

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Speaker 1: but that there's no doubt. But I also think he's

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Speaker 1: a hero. I mean, if you think back to the

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Speaker 1: last election in twenty twenty in America where the hunter

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Speaker 1: Biden laptop was there. The evidence was clear of criminality

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Speaker 1: for which he now been convicted in one or two things.

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Speaker 1: The evidence was all sorts of things were there that

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Speaker 1: deserved to be in the public domain, especially his father's

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Speaker 1: close relationship and telephone calls with That's a separate issue, isn't. No,

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Speaker 1: it isn't at all. I tell you why all the

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Speaker 1: social media channels forbade any conversation about that subject. The

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Speaker 1: Americans had an election with no debate on this issue.

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Speaker 1: Mask has come along and bought Twitter, albeit for quite

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Speaker 1: a high price, and free speech is coming back to

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Speaker 1: America and the Western world. You've even seen Meta in

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Speaker 1: this week. I'm an extraordinary u turn that has been made.

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Speaker 1: So Mask is a forced for good in terms of

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Speaker 1: open democratic argument. When it comes to power influence, I

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Speaker 1: think the important thing. The important thing is he mustn't

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Speaker 1: be seen himself to be dictating what the Treasury Department do,

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Speaker 1: and that is important.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people would disagree with the point around,

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Speaker 2: you know, free to speech, particularly the Europeans are deeply

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Speaker 2: concerned about misinformation.

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Speaker 1: The wee misinformation. I know, yes, yes, yes, we must

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Speaker 1: all support globalism, we must all support open borders. If

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Speaker 1: we don't. It's misinformation. I don't buy it.

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Speaker 4: On Elon Musk with him and the other tech billionaires

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Speaker 4: who support visas for highly skilled workers into the US,

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Speaker 4: that's pitting them against the MAGA movement and people like

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Speaker 4: Steve Balon who are opposed immigration much more broadly.

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Speaker 1: Who is right in that debate? Well, I'll talk from

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Speaker 1: a UK perspective. You know, we've always favored I've always

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Speaker 1: favored high skilled immigration, people that come in our net,

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Speaker 1: contributors to the country, and crucially who integrate to greater

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Speaker 1: or lesser extent in our culture, our values. I've never

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Speaker 1: had a problem with that. But of course we've done

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Speaker 1: the opposite to that. Isn't it amazing of the last

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Speaker 1: three million people that settled here in Britain from outside

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Speaker 1: the E the last three million twenty two percent of rimwork,

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Speaker 1: only twenty two percent of RIM work. So how you

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Speaker 1: manage immigration is becoming an increasingly crucial political issue. Bannon

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Speaker 1: is sort of almost saying no immigration into America. I

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Speaker 1: tell you what, if we want the city of London

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Speaker 1: where we're sitting right now, if we want our tech

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Speaker 1: sector to be a world leader, if we want to

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Speaker 1: turn this place into one of the crypto trading centers

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Speaker 1: of the world, all those things. There's a lot we

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Speaker 1: can do with British people, but we will need some

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Speaker 1: highly skilled people from other parts of the world. I

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Speaker 1: have no problem with that. Adult.

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Speaker 2: The issue with that though, in terms of the immigration debate,

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Speaker 2: is this. On the one hand, your manifesto ahead of

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Speaker 2: the election last year talks about freezing immigration.

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Speaker 1: No no, no, no, no no no. Hang on, how amazing.

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Speaker 1: Hang on. Let's just be clear about what we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: There are always people leaving the country. You know. You

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Speaker 1: set a three bed semi in the suburbs of London

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Speaker 1: and you can go and live in Spain for the

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Speaker 1: rest of your life, Portugal for the rest of your life,

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Speaker 1: or whatever it may be. What we're talking about is

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Speaker 1: not to have overall population explosion due to immigration. So

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Speaker 1: there's still plenty of room for people to come on

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Speaker 1: either work visas or in some cases come to saddle.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not you know, we are not putting up

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Speaker 1: the barriers entirely. What we are saying is that low

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Speaker 1: skilled migration and those people bring independents has net been

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Speaker 1: a negative for the UK economy.

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Speaker 2: How is that any different from the policy that the

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Speaker 2: last well this government and the previous government have tried

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Speaker 2: to enact because.

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Speaker 1: That's what they told people in manifestos and then did

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Speaker 1: the complete opposite, which is why we're doing well in

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Speaker 1: the polls. Trust has gone. Don't forget. Don't forget. The

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Speaker 1: Conservative Party in twenty ten, twenty fifteen, twenty seventeen, specifically

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Speaker 1: in the manifesto said net migration of tens of thousands

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Speaker 1: a year. In twenty nineteen, we've got control of our

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Speaker 1: borders backwre Brexit numbers will be lower, and the twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three number before the revision and by the way,

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Speaker 1: all the revisions are upwards, is nearly a million. This

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Speaker 1: is this is where we are the biggest problem that

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Speaker 1: those two traditional parties have is trust.

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Speaker 4: If we turn to the UK economy, and Britain obviously

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Speaker 4: has got deep seated and long running economic problems. Those

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Speaker 4: have asserted themselves in recent days in the turbulence in

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Speaker 4: financial markets. How would you create economic growth in Britain?

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Speaker 4: Everybody says they want to achieve that, it seems exceptionally

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Speaker 4: hard to actually make it happen. How would you bring

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Speaker 4: that back?

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Speaker 1: I mean Rachel from Accounts is not going to achieve

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Speaker 1: that is she? I mean clearly utterly clueless. I thought

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Speaker 1: that from the start, actually utterly clueless, completely out of

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Speaker 1: a depth.

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Speaker 3: And there seems to be they want in a landslide election.

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Speaker 1: Well they did it, but but it wasn't really it

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Speaker 1: wasn't really a pro labor vote was it was just

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Speaker 1: an anti Tory vote that dominated the election. And remember this,

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Speaker 1: it was a fairly loveless victory and they only got

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Speaker 1: a third of the votes and two thirds of the seats.

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Speaker 1: Again we're back to our friend, the electoral system. I

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Speaker 1: was amazed how little scrutiny Labour's economic plans came under

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Speaker 1: in the run up. What is clear is this, What

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Speaker 1: is absolutely clear is this. They are increasing the size

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Speaker 1: of the public sector and the measures they've taken is

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Speaker 1: already even before April the first, when all this really

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Speaker 1: kicks in decreasing the size of the private sector. And

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Speaker 1: there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding on the center

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Speaker 1: left of British politics as to how economics works. If

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Speaker 1: you don't create private sector wealth, you are doomed. So

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Speaker 1: she can talk, as she did when she came back

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Speaker 1: from China on Monday, of this week, she can say

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Speaker 1: growth is our number one priority. Everything they're doing is

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Speaker 1: anti growth, including the key component, and the key component

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Speaker 1: is confidence, and there isn't any If we.

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Speaker 4: Look at the reform manifesto, it talks about a department

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Speaker 4: saving fifty billion pounds a year by cutting wasteful spending

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Speaker 4: PROXY and improving procurements. So that would be about ten

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Speaker 4: percent of departmental budgets every year for five years. How

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Speaker 4: would you bring that about with that huge cuts to

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Speaker 4: the NHS education.

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Speaker 1: It's very interesting you raised that. It's very interesting you

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Speaker 1: raised that because that was part of our contract that

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Speaker 1: we put out with the people. We were told it's impossible, nonsense,

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Speaker 1: it would be massive cuts to frontline services. Guess what,

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Speaker 1: it's now government policy. So we're very good at leading

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Speaker 1: arguments on this. What I have no doubt about, and

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Speaker 1: this is going to be difficult for some industries to accept,

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Speaker 1: and I think that could be the next big battle

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Speaker 1: with the trade unions will be over the use of AI,

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Speaker 1: the use of advanced technology and how actually we can

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Speaker 1: increase productivity with fewer human beings. And therein lies your

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Speaker 1: real answer. And I think what you're going to see

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Speaker 1: with Musk. You know, if he's fully focused on doje

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Speaker 1: this project in America, you will see technology increasingly replacing

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Speaker 1: a lot of human beings and that never all through

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Speaker 1: the history of modern mankind. That never comes without something

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Speaker 1: of a fight.

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Speaker 2: But is your economic tender actually a real plan, because

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Speaker 2: you're also promising one and a half percent extra growth

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Speaker 2: in terms of what can be delivered to the economy

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Speaker 2: as well as that fifty billion pounds in expended cults.

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Speaker 3: I mean partly.

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Speaker 2: You know, the issue is that the government is already

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Speaker 2: in trouble with its own fiscal policies for exactly that reason.

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Speaker 2: And are you going to be able to convince the

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Speaker 2: bond markets anymore? I mean one and a half percent

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Speaker 2: in terms of extra economic growth is pretty much the

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Speaker 2: same as what Liz Trust was offering.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's put it like this. What we have right now,

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Speaker 1: and not just the rich leaving London and leaving our

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Speaker 1: big cities, which they are in their thousands people are relocating,

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Speaker 1: we're also losing the thirty something entrepreneurs they're going. They

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Speaker 1: can't see any prospect of Britain being a pro business community.

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Speaker 1: And I returned to that word confidence. You know that

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Speaker 1: there are things that make markets work at times that

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Speaker 1: you can't a ways rationalized. But it's about confidence, it's

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Speaker 1: about optimists, it's about optimism, it's about direction. And I

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Speaker 1: would say this to you. Do you know there's not

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Speaker 1: a single person on the labor front, Bak, not one

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Speaker 1: who's ever set up or worked in private business, not one.

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Speaker 1: The tour is not much better. And what we're saying

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Speaker 1: is that we are and we're not Elon Muss billionaires.

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Speaker 1: But what we're saying is we're a practical group of

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Speaker 1: people who have among us several successful business people. I

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Speaker 1: think we've got more idea of what makes the economy

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Speaker 1: tick than either the current labor or Tory parties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, confidence is a very difficult thing obviously to gauge

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Speaker 2: and to inspire and quite quick to sort of disappear.

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Speaker 2: But the thing about your economic policy, can you sell

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Speaker 2: this to voters? Can you actually sell a plan that

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Speaker 2: is promising a lot of growth which may or may

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Speaker 2: not happen. But he is definitely offering enormous tax cuts

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Speaker 2: now which definitely brings in.

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Speaker 3: Less the timing cuts to the revenue.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's be clear about the tax and with.

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Speaker 2: Bond markets, by that and also that it does mean

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Speaker 2: effectively cutting the size of the state, and that is

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Speaker 2: definitely not clear in your manifesto.

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Speaker 3: You know there's four point.

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Speaker 2: Two million adults now on health related benefits in the UK.

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Speaker 3: Do they have to go back to work? I mean will.

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Speaker 1: Carrying to inform uk wor we need carrots and sticks, right?

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Speaker 3: But does the electric know that that's actually the stick?

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Speaker 1: Hang on the carrots very easy. The big tax cut

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Speaker 1: we want is to raise the threshold of which you

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Speaker 1: start paying tax up from twelve and a half thousand

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Speaker 1: a year to twenty thousand a year. That is the

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Speaker 1: big that.

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Speaker 2: Is enormously costly. You cannot do that. It massive cuts

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Speaker 2: to government.

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Speaker 1: That is enormously costly unless what it does is give

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Speaker 1: people on benefits the real incentive to go back to work.

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Speaker 1: Because the number of doors I've not so.

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Speaker 2: How is that electorally possible? It's a little bit like

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Speaker 2: have you a malaise plan? It is very difficult to

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Speaker 2: sell that to a broad sway.

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Speaker 1: The vice I would say to London based media come

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Speaker 1: out and knock on doors in the poorer parts of

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Speaker 1: the country because the number of people that have told

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Speaker 1: me to my face you know, I want to go

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Speaker 1: to work. I want us to be better off as

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Speaker 1: a household. But as soon as I work more than

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Speaker 1: sixteen hours a week, I lose all of my benefits.

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Speaker 1: There is this terrible welfare trap.

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Speaker 2: So you think that that tough message of get back

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Speaker 2: to work is actually very palatable to the British population.

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Speaker 2: For example, you know the star I mentioned Argentina, have

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Speaker 2: you Melley, which again by the Republicans and Donald Trumpandi

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Speaker 2: and Alomas think that that has been immensely successful, and

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Speaker 2: a lot of markets that might agree.

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Speaker 3: I do, yeah, and you do too.

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Speaker 2: The cost of that economic success that is not as

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Speaker 2: well touted is that poverty within Argentina has jumped from

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Speaker 2: forty percent of the population to fifty percent of the population.

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Speaker 3: That is the cost of doing that.

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Speaker 1: Well, what I'm trying to do is keep people a

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Speaker 1: way out of povercy by making work pay. And I

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Speaker 1: accept that it comes at a big initial cost.

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Speaker 5: I absolute accept a big initial cost on day one.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely no, I absolutely accept that. But I also think

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Speaker 5: the stick, Yeah, there has to be a stick. I mean,

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Speaker 5: what is all this nonsense about four day weeks work

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Speaker 5: from home?

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Speaker 2: And how can it be to Umber ten on that

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Speaker 2: promise to the electorate that you have to get back

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Speaker 2: to work. Anybody who's suffering from depression, who has you know,

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Speaker 2: benefits coming in, you have to give that very hard.

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Speaker 1: Would they vote about the working population? What about those

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Speaker 1: people I see on the m twenty five at half

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Speaker 1: past five on a Monday morning, right hang on heading

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Speaker 1: off to work, working much longer hours than their parents

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Speaker 1: or grandparents ever did, paying ever higher burdens of town.

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Speaker 1: What about them? No one ever talks about them, No

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Speaker 1: one ever talks about hard working Britain and the burdens

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Speaker 1: they're under. And you know what, I think they'll vote

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Speaker 1: for us, I really really do. And I think you'll

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Speaker 1: find there are people on benefits who know they shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be on benefits, who will see what we want to

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Speaker 1: do as being a way to help them to be

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Speaker 1: better off.

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Speaker 2: But if your voters had the manifesto, which you call

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Speaker 2: a contract with voters.

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Speaker 3: As well as we have, do.

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Speaker 2: You think that that is actually what is being communicated

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Speaker 2: on the doorsteps.

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Speaker 1: It's more devoted for us. I suppose we need a

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Speaker 1: bit of honesty about this. Why don't we Why don't

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Speaker 1: we tell young people at the university in the school

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Speaker 1: that actually the only way you will ever succeed in

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Speaker 1: work in life is to work hard. That hard work

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Speaker 1: is good. Success is good, making money is good. We

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Speaker 1: need a change of culture.

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Speaker 4: The people, the people that you're talking about meeting on

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Speaker 4: knocking doors. Of course, that's extremely important. Those people do

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Speaker 4: need the numbers to add up if your policy is

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Speaker 4: going to work and it is going to benefit. The

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Speaker 4: memorial terms the ifs said of the proposals in the

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Speaker 4: reform manifesto, spending reductions would save less than stated that

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Speaker 4: tax cuts would cost more than stated by a margin

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Speaker 4: of tens of billions of pounds a year. The problem

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Speaker 4: is if you if you don't have the kind of

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Speaker 4: rigor of the economic plan, you can't help the people

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Speaker 4: that you're making the promise.

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Speaker 1: Well, you can, because there are many other things you

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Speaker 1: can do about cutting the sides of the public sector.

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Speaker 1: I talked about the use of AI, I've talked about

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Speaker 1: procurement changes and cuts already. But the thing we're all

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Speaker 1: forgetting is the just enormous dead hand of the quangocracy

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Speaker 1: on everything from financial services to fisheries. The extent to

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Speaker 1: which businesses are scared on a day to day basis

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Speaker 1: scared that some unaccountable person comes in tells them they're

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Speaker 1: doing everything wrong, demands extra costs for them. Again, you see,

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Speaker 1: unless you have unless you have frontline politicians who are

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Speaker 1: actually in business, they don't. And maybe what this is doing.

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Speaker 2: There may be a case for cutting regulation here in

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Speaker 2: the UK, but you're not going to find fifty billion

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Speaker 2: pounds by cutting quangos.

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Speaker 3: That is simply not this.

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Speaker 2: But the idea also is that Britain has been through

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Speaker 2: this now twice. The promise of cutting taxes now and

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Speaker 2: feeling the benefit later, cutting taxes now and getting growth later.

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Speaker 3: It did not last for Liz Trus.

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Speaker 2: The October budget, you know, even though it was much

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Speaker 2: more conservative with a small scene, also has not withstood

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Speaker 2: the market pressure well either. And so that's why we

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Speaker 2: go back to the figures. The figures are not credible.

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Speaker 2: You're offering something that's not possible.

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Speaker 1: You will notice you will notice that actually on tax

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Speaker 1: for example, which you both talked about to me, that

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Speaker 1: we're being much more cautious than Liz Truss was. You know,

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Speaker 1: Liz Trus was going for big bang right everything at once,

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Speaker 1: and clearly way too much at once without corresponding initial

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Speaker 1: spending cuts actually put big spending cuts in. Although something

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Speaker 1: may have objected to it, it might have been a

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Speaker 1: different outcome. What we are saying is we want to

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Speaker 1: reduce the overall burden of taxation. Right, yes, but the

440
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,520
Speaker 1: first big tax cut, the important first tax cut, is

441
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: that one at the lower end of the tax spectrum.

442
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 1: All right, So we're not promising everything at once.

443
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 3: Okay.

444
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 2: There are a whole number of other very big pledges

445
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,400
Speaker 2: in terms of you know, net ZERI might get into

446
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,440
Speaker 2: that later, but well, one that is very very much

447
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,479
Speaker 2: of interest to our audience, you knew speaking to an

448
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 2: investor audience. The manifesto talks about slashing interest payments on

449
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 2: what the Bank of England pays to commercial banks for

450
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 2: the QB program.

451
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 3: I mean it's something that does have.

452
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 2: Some support racket, Okay, that's your view. It does have

453
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 2: some support amongst economists. Put you basically peg the savings

454
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 2: at thirty five billion pounds. Some economists say yes, you

455
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,440
Speaker 2: could do that, Barkley's, for example, twenty billion pounds. That's

456
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 2: the problem also with the figures is that it promises

457
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 2: more than it could deliver. How could you keep control

458
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 2: of your monetary policy.

459
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,399
Speaker 3: If you don't pay the banks.

460
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 1: Give us credit. Okay, give us credit. We were the

461
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 1: first people on the political stage to expose this racket.

462
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 1: Nobody else even talked about it because they'd be living

463
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: on Q like a drug addict. All right, So you know,

464
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: we're actually quite good. Are putting some arguments and putting

465
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 1: some debates out there that nobody else dares to have.

466
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 1: And whether Barkley say twenty or thirty or whatever they say,

467
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 1: it shows you that we were in the right ballpark

468
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: to begin to expose what was going on.

469
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 4: Park.

470
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,919
Speaker 1: Well, look, we weren't going to win the last election.

471
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 1: What we wanted to do with the contract was to

472
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: set out our vision broadly of where we want to go. Now,

473
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 1: the responsibility that is upon me now is very very different.

474
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 1: We're now in a completely different place, and I fully

475
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 1: accept that. Between I fully accept the point you're making

476
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 1: that between now and the next election we've got to

477
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 1: be more specific rather than general. I fully accept.

478
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 4: That if we turn back to the US, I mean,

479
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 4: presumably nobody in Britain is as close to Donald Trump

480
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 4: as yourself. What in four years from now, like, what

481
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 4: can the British public expect you to have achieved from

482
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 4: that relationship in the national interest. What's like the best

483
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 4: case scenario of like how you will of levels in.

484
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 1: A short term. In the short term, we have a

485
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: seas far coming in the Middle least just because of Trump. Great,

486
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 1: let's hope there is an end to the extraordinary blood

487
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: letting a million battle casualties. It's like the song were Drones.

488
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 1: I mean, it really is awful Ukraine and what is

489
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 1: going on. Let us hope some equitable solution can be

490
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 1: found there. I think you'll see Saudi Arabia drawn back

491
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: towards Israel. I think you'll see the Abraham Accords extend.

492
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 1: I hope you'll see Iran isolated on the world stage

493
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: as being the really bad actors that they are. And

494
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 1: all those things, of course are in our interests, maybe

495
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: not hugely directly in many cases in terms of what's

496
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: in it for us. That's what you're really asking. And

497
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 1: I understand that, Look, this really is up to the government.

498
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 1: You know, if if this government is intent on being

499
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: run by human rights lawyers which are happy to give

500
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: away potentially the nuclear capability of America's most important single

501
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: base in the world outside mainland America. It ain't going

502
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:21,880
Speaker 1: to go well. If this government is determined to reset

503
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,640
Speaker 1: our relations with Brussels in the sense that we start

504
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: to mirror single market rules that come onto a statute book,

505
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 1: they were going to find it very, very difficult. But

506
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: it was interesting. I thought the other day that Starmer

507
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 1: gave the AI speech. It's all a bit of functory,

508
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: but he gave the speech about AI and he was

509
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: asked the question. One of the journalists asked him, well,

510
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,880
Speaker 1: because of Brexit, we're now free and you mentioned European

511
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: attitudes towards tech. So Starbar got to make his mind

512
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: up which way do we go? And the closer we

513
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: tie ourselves to Brussels, the more difficult it is. At

514
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: the end of that four years, as you've asked to

515
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 1: have achieve economically what we could. I am certain that

516
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: in terms of intelligence, I'm certain that in terms of

517
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: special forces working together, I'm sure in terms of those

518
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: things the next four years will be a great success.

519
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 1: But it's on the economics that people want to see

520
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 1: some results. I am certain that with the right government

521
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 1: we could have free trade deals negotiated on booze, motorbikes,

522
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: financial services, and maybe agriculture, we just leave because maybe

523
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: it's too difficult. I don't know, but I think it's

524
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: an awful lot of progress that we can make with

525
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 1: an administration that wants to do it.

526
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 4: Is there a risk that Donald Trump's quite mercurial and

527
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 4: he he'll listen to He'll listen to yourself and be

528
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 4: influenced by that, and then we'll move on to the

529
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 4: next person.

530
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: Something about Donald Trump, He's not really influenced by anybody.

531
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,360
Speaker 1: He listens to people, He makes his own mind up.

532
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: He's very very good at making his own mind up.

533
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: He's also very good at seeing the big picture. And

534
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: I think one of the things maybe people don't like him,

535
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 1: and I get it. He's a New York occurrent. It's

536
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 1: not everyone's style. But one of the things I think

537
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,120
Speaker 1: that people should credit him for is that the big

538
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: thinking in the first four years with Trump presidency was

539
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 1: on foreign affairs, and it was a huge success.

540
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 4: Have you spoken to Donald Trump directly about Tommy Robinson.

541
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 4: I mean, obviously, Elon Musk is a big fan of

542
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,959
Speaker 4: Tommy Robinson. Tommy Robinson is someone with a criminal record.

543
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 4: His supporters have associations with street violence. He's sort of

544
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 4: rooted in the EDL and the British National Party. You

545
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 4: obviously have differences with Tommy Robinson.

546
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: I won't have that fundamental differences. You know. Tommy Robinson

547
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with me, has never been anything

548
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: to do with me, and never will be anything to

549
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: do with me. My brand of politics is non sectarian,

550
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: non racist. It always has been and it always will be.

551
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: And mister Robinson can deal with the head he likes,

552
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: but he'll never have anything to do with my party.

553
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: Want to be absolute clear about.

554
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 4: Have you spoken to Donald Trump directly or Donald Trump's

555
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 4: team directly about that?

556
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: I think Donald Trump's team have got bigger things to

557
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: worry about than Tommy Robinson. There is an element of

558
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: the there is an element of the conservative right in

559
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: America that view Robinson as a hero figure right because

560
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: they see him as the man that fought the grooming gangs,

561
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 1: all right and by the way, a topic that does

562
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: need more debate and does need more sorting out. What

563
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: they don't see is all the rest of it, and

564
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: they don't know the full story.

565
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 2: In my opinion, you talk a lot about your closer

566
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 2: relationship with the US and how important that relationship is.

567
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 3: Our closest trading partner is.

568
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: Still the EU only in your mind. I mean, you

569
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: knowest our biggest country relationship is not trading. No, Well,

570
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: Germany is a country still, isn't it.

571
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 2: Yeah?

572
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 3: There you are the EU as a whole.

573
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: Who's the biggest foreign investor in Britain?

574
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 3: Who do you think?

575
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 1: Who?

576
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 3: I also talked about the rise of.

577
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: With similar views of anti migration parties across Europe.

578
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: It does who said I'm an anti migration.

579
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 3: Party, Well, you did yourself.

580
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: I didn't. I said the opposite. I said, we're prose.

581
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: You asked me about high skilled, high skilled people, and

582
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: I said, if they come into Britain, bring high skills,

583
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: pay taxes and integrate, I've got no problem. You know,

584
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: our brand of politics, my brand of politics is different

585
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: to many of the other European pastes. All right, that's

586
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: really clear about that. There are similarities that are a

587
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: crossover points, but there are differences. But let me just

588
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: come back to Europe very quickly, in the economics and

589
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: the statistic that I think everybody following this podcast needs

590
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: to just get embedded in their minds. I think it's crucial.

591
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: In two thousand and eight, the American economy was exactly

592
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: the same size as the Eurozone today. It's double the size,

593
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: double the size. And that's what you get if you

594
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: have economic policy based on idealistic but I'm realistic net

595
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: zero goals, over regulation, welfare ism as being a really

596
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: good alternative to go into work, and that's what you've

597
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: got a failing Europe. One of the reasons I wanted

598
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: Brexit was to give us an opportunity to get away

599
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: from that failing model. I'm not saying we have to

600
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: be identical to America, but I think in terms of

601
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: business culture as a heck of a lot we can learn.

602
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 2: Okay, n I know a whole another shooting person you

603
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 2: just started.

604
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 3: Nie of Ours.

605
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us on the Bloomberg

606
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 2: UK Politics podcast, The Reform UK Leader joining us alongside

607
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 2: the Bloomberg's Finance.

608
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 3: Report at will.

609
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 2: Sure if you like the program, don't forget to subscribe,

610
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: give it five stars so that other people can find

611
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 2: it on Apple, Podcast, Spotify or wherever you listen.

612
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 3: I'm Caroline Hepgar.

613
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 2: This episode was produced by James Walcock, audio engineer with

614
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: Shan Gustamachia. We'll be back with more on Monday, This

615
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 2: is Bloomberg