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Speaker 1: Hi, Curse Up listeners, I know you miss me on

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Speaker 1: your feed. Don't worry. We're working on an all new

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Speaker 1: season of Curse Of coming out later this year. In

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Speaker 1: the meantime, if you can't stop thinking about the shocking

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Speaker 1: stories you heard about America's Next Top Model, you'll definitely

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Speaker 1: want to check out our new docuseries from E Dirty

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Speaker 1: Rotten Scandals. In the series, you'll hear from the America's

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Speaker 1: Next Top Model participants you heard from on Curse Of,

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Speaker 1: and a few you didn't like. Former A and TM

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Speaker 1: judge Janis Dickinson. Dirty Rotten Scandals unveils the dark underbelly

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Speaker 1: of the long running TV series through the untold stories

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Speaker 1: of former contestants, and shows what happens when a golden

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Speaker 1: opportunity for aspiring models unravels into a harrowing saga of exploitation,

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Speaker 1: shattered dreams, and resilience. You can find the two part

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Speaker 1: docuseries Dirty Rotten Scandals America's Next Top Model on E Network.

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Speaker 1: Check your local TV provider schedule for the last episode.

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Speaker 1: I want to share may be the best story I

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Speaker 1: heard from the A and TM Models talk magazine. That's

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Speaker 1: my dream to be on the Congress. The story came

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Speaker 1: from Jazel Sampson, the model you've been hearing from who

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Speaker 1: competed on cycle one. She thought being on A and

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Speaker 1: TM was gonna be her big break.

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Speaker 2: Again, like that cool with just Zelle if she is

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Speaker 2: so beautifully present the whole time.

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Speaker 1: On cycle one, the contestants did a sexy swimwear photoshoot.

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Speaker 1: The photos were featured in a men's magazine called Stuff

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Speaker 1: It's no longer in print. The pictures were accompanied by

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Speaker 1: a little Q and A from each of the models.

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Speaker 3: I think one of the questions was what was the

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Speaker 3: craziest thing you ever did?

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Speaker 1: Gazelle was only eighteen. She hadn't done much, but there

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Speaker 1: was one time she and a friend did something a

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Speaker 1: little crazy to try to meet their favorite musician.

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Speaker 3: I convinced my best friend to drive us to Santinez

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Speaker 3: Santa Barbara area, where Michael Jackson lived, and we were

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Speaker 3: going to like just knock on the gates of Neverland

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Speaker 3: and just be greeted and walk in there and meet

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Speaker 3: Michael Jackson, or.

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Speaker 1: At least that's what they hoped would happen. This was

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Speaker 1: back in two thousand and three, when Michael Jackson was

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Speaker 1: arguably the most famous person on the planet. So when

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Speaker 1: they arrived at the gates of the Neverland Ranch, his

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Speaker 1: sprawling twenty seven hundred acre theme park slash home, things

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Speaker 1: didn't quite pan out the way Jazelle and her friend planned.

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Speaker 3: Well, we got there, obviously, they're like, you need to

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Speaker 3: turn around and go home. We spoke to the speaker

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Speaker 3: box and it was a three hour drive and then

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Speaker 3: three hours back, so it was a six hour round trip.

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Speaker 1: So Gazelle unfortunately did not get to meet Michael Jackson

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Speaker 1: that day. Gazelle shared this story with the people at

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Speaker 1: Stuff magazine and they printed it beside her A and

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Speaker 1: TM photo. Gazelle was eliminated from the competition three episodes

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Speaker 1: after the shoot. She had to go back home to

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Speaker 1: her regular life. She was under an NBA and couldn't

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Speaker 1: even talk about being on A and TM yet. She

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Speaker 1: tried going back to college, but eventually had to drop

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Speaker 1: out because she missed too much of the semester. She

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Speaker 1: did at least still have her old job.

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Speaker 4: I went back to Disney. Thank god I had a

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Speaker 4: job there still.

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Speaker 1: Jazelle signed with a small modeling agency and waited for

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Speaker 1: the gigs to start rolling in. Then a few months later,

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Speaker 1: her agency got a vague phone call from someone asking

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Speaker 1: about Gazelle.

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Speaker 3: I received a voicemail from them and they were like, hey,

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Speaker 3: give us a call back because something's weird with like

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Speaker 3: Michael Jackson and you need a call. So I called

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Speaker 3: my manager agent and they're like, well, some guy named

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Speaker 3: Frank Tyson called here and they were looking for you,

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Speaker 3: and they asked for your phone number.

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Speaker 1: Frank was claiming to be Michael Jackson's assistant. Now, I

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Speaker 1: thought it was an agent's job to vet the calls

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Speaker 1: that came in about their clients, but Gazelle told me

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Speaker 1: she wasn't exactly signed to a premier agency. They did

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Speaker 1: at least no not to give out Gazelle's number to

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Speaker 1: any rando claiming to be Michael Jackson's rep. Gazelle thought

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Speaker 1: it might be a prank, but she decided to call

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Speaker 1: this Frank Tyson back.

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Speaker 3: I call the number and Frank Tyson answers, but he

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Speaker 3: was like, Hi, Hello, this is Frank.

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Speaker 1: If you're wondering why Gizelle is doing that voice, it's

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Speaker 1: because she says, Frank Tyson weirdly sounded just like Michael Jackson.

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Speaker 4: He was like, we're in a session right now, but

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Speaker 4: I'm gonna give you a callback. And I was like okay.

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Speaker 4: So I was like ah, and I'm like freaking out.

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Speaker 3: The phone's in my hand, my Nokia at the time,

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Speaker 3: and I'm sitting in biology class.

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Speaker 1: This was before Gazelle dropped out. And I know Gazelle

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Speaker 1: said she left college because she was too far behind,

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Speaker 1: but I'm sure making phone calls in biology class didn't help.

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Speaker 4: They called me back. I run outside and I took

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Speaker 4: the call and he was like, yeah, you know, so

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Speaker 4: Michael read your article.

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Speaker 3: Girl, I had butterflies my stomach and I was like,

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Speaker 3: my god, what's happening now.

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Speaker 1: I know this story might sound made up, but it

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Speaker 1: is true. Michael Jackson was trying to get in touch

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Speaker 1: with Gazelle, which is wild. Apparently Michael Jackson was a

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Speaker 1: fan of that Men's magazine stuff. He'd seen Jazelle's A

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Speaker 1: and TM photo and read her story about driving six

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Speaker 1: hours to try to meet him at his Neverland ranch.

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Speaker 3: He was like, he feels bad that you didn't make

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Speaker 3: it to never Land, so you'd like to invite you

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Speaker 3: and whoever you'd like to bring with you.

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Speaker 4: You could bring one person to come back up to Neverland.

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Speaker 1: She couldn't believe it. Jazelle had wanted to meet Michael

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Speaker 1: Jackson since she was a kid. A few weeks later,

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Speaker 1: she got all dressed up and headed to the Neverland Ranch.

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Speaker 1: She brought the friend she'd originally driven up there with.

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Speaker 1: They pulled into the driveway and talked to someone through

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Speaker 1: that little speaker box. But this time the gates opened.

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Speaker 1: It was the real.

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Speaker 4: We went up there. We did the ferris wheel, the rides,

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Speaker 4: we fed Joe Rafts.

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Speaker 3: We saw the tiger. He named his little baby tiger Thriller.

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Speaker 3: He had cousins there. We made friends with one of

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Speaker 3: the cousins. He was so nice. The cousin took us

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Speaker 3: around in a golf cart and he was like, I

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Speaker 3: don't normally do this, but do you want to see

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Speaker 3: where he keeps all of his memorabilia.

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Speaker 4: And he has a cottage.

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Speaker 3: All the way back in the hills, Like you have

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Speaker 3: to like drive up into the hills. We saw the

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Speaker 3: werewolf mask and Thriller jacket on a statue. We saw

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Speaker 3: all of his gloves, his belts, his records, all of

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Speaker 3: his awards.

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Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, that was so freaking cool.

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Speaker 1: But up to that point, they hadn't seen the King

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Speaker 1: of pop himself.

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Speaker 4: The cousin was like, so you haven't met my cousin

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Speaker 4: then yet, huh.

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Speaker 1: Then he drove them to meet Michael Jackson, who was

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Speaker 1: in a theater on his property working on an upcoming project.

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Speaker 3: It was laying on the floor of his theater and

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Speaker 3: there was a bunch of people and all you could

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Speaker 3: see was like the back of his hair. He was

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Speaker 3: wearing his usual stuff, the white sox, the loafers, black pants.

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Speaker 4: When we were sitting in the theater seats and we could

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Speaker 4: hear him like he was Okay, we're gonna need to

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Speaker 4: change this, and da da da da da dad. Then

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Speaker 4: he finished and he got up and we.

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Speaker 1: Met Michael Jackson actually came over to meet Jaselle and

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Speaker 1: her friend.

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Speaker 4: E really sinks Michael's short, but he was taller.

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Speaker 3: He was like, he's like six feet and he was

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Speaker 3: very nice and gracious, and he said, you know wonderful

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Speaker 3: things about saving the world.

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Speaker 1: For Jazelle, just meeting Michael Jackson what have been enough

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Speaker 1: to make the trip worth it. But then he told

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Speaker 1: her he wanted her to be involved in his next project.

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Speaker 3: Michael was working on a sequel to Thriller called Threatened

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Speaker 3: off of his Invincible album.

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Speaker 1: He needed someone to play the love interest in his

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Speaker 1: Thriller video sequel, and he thought Jaselle was the perfect

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Speaker 1: fit after seeing her photos and stuff magazine. I mean,

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Speaker 1: can you imagine you're eighteen, fresh out of high school.

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Speaker 1: Then you get cast on a new reality show, and

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Speaker 1: because of your appearance on that show, Michael Jackson himself,

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Speaker 1: one of the biggest stars in the world, calls you

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Speaker 1: to invite you to his house and tells you he

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Speaker 1: wants you to start in his next video. All of

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Speaker 1: this happened in the span of a year. It was

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Speaker 1: the sub Jazelle's dreams were made of. Now, if you

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Speaker 1: picked up your phone to google the Threatned music video,

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Speaker 1: you can put it back down. It doesn't exist. Before

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Speaker 1: they could shoot the video, new allegations came out against

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Speaker 1: Michael Jackson. In two thousand and three, he was charged

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Speaker 1: and later acquitted of child molestation. Soon after his acquittal,

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Speaker 1: he left the country and went to Bahrain. The video

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Speaker 1: shoot never happened. Giselle was bummed about the video, but

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Speaker 1: she thought, surely if Michael Jackson, of all all people,

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Speaker 1: had noticed her, other big opportunities would start rolling in soon.

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Speaker 1: Those calls never came. Gazelle found out after A and

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Speaker 1: TU Michael Jackson was the only person checking for her.

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Speaker 1: By that point, Gazelle had given up a year of

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Speaker 1: her life and dropped out of school for A and TOM.

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Speaker 1: But the show wasn't going to be her big break

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Speaker 1: or the thing that launched her modeling career. It turned

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Speaker 1: out to be her curse.

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Speaker 3: The show was no help to me whatsoever. Besides the

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Speaker 3: whole Michael Jackson stuff, there was no help. I sent

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Speaker 3: out postcards to agencies and casting directors to watch America's

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Speaker 3: next top model, like back in the day, like mailers,

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Speaker 3: nothing had got nothing.

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Speaker 1: Gazelle didn't know it because reality TV was still new,

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Speaker 1: but those agencies were never going to see her as

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Speaker 1: a model.

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Speaker 3: Back then, if you're a reality person, you were bottom

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Speaker 3: of the barrel, piece of crap.

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Speaker 1: To a teenager, getting invited to Michael Jackson's house might

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Speaker 1: almost make being exploited for a TV show worth it.

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Speaker 1: But these days, when Giselle looks back, she realizes the

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Speaker 1: only thing she got out of being on A and

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Speaker 1: TM was a cool story to tell the podcast host

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Speaker 1: and a lifetime of trauma. Meanwhile, Tyra Banks built a

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Speaker 1: multi million dollar industry, and she did it in part

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Speaker 1: by exploiting the dreams of young women like Gazelle. The

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Speaker 1: show aired in one hundred and seventy countries. Reruns are

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Speaker 1: still airing to this day. Franchises around the world are

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Speaker 1: still being produced, and Tyra's making money on all of it.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 1: Gizelle and a lot of other models I spoke to

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Speaker 1: said they want to reckoning.

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Speaker 3: This is unjust. We should be given some sort of compensation.

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Speaker 6: On some.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. I'm

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Speaker 1: Bridget Armstrong. And the years since A and TM aired,

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Speaker 1: the contestants have grown up, so have we, and we

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Speaker 1: all see the show in Tyra Banks in a different light.

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Speaker 1: The contestants may not have become top models, but their

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Speaker 1: lives went on. They chased new dreams and started families.

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Speaker 1: But even though they moved on, there's still a part

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Speaker 1: of them that can't just get over it. They accepted

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Speaker 1: that not everyone was going to make it big, but

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Speaker 1: what they can't accept is how they were treated by

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Speaker 1: A and TM. Some of them say the show took

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Speaker 1: advantage of their youth, naivete and trauma. Some say the

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Speaker 1: show calls new trauma, and they still carry those scars

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Speaker 1: to this day. And A and TM's second wind on

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Speaker 1: streaming services opened up new wounds. I'm sure seeing Tyra

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Speaker 1: Banks become even more rich and famous didn't help either.

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Speaker 1: Contestants like Giselle look at the millions of dollars they

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Speaker 1: made for Tyra, Kenmock and the network, and they want compensation,

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Speaker 1: Others want accountability, and others just want an apology from Tyra.

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Speaker 1: But does Tyra Banks owe them anything at all? The

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Speaker 1: answer to that question depends on how you see Tyra's

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Speaker 1: role in all of this. Was Tyra the fashion industry

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Speaker 1: fairy godmother she tried to portray on A and TM?

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Speaker 1: Was she the ultimate reality TV villain? Or was she

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Speaker 1: just another albeit bigger cog in the reality TV machine.

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Speaker 1: Then there's a matter of us, the audience, the people

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Speaker 1: who watched this show season after season. Do we have

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Speaker 1: any faults? Are we complicit? On this last episode of

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Speaker 1: the Curse of America's Next Top Model, we're going to

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Speaker 1: explore A and TM's legacy from the model's perspective and

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Speaker 1: from ours. We've been talking all season about the dubious

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Speaker 1: things that happened behind the scenes on A and TM.

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Speaker 1: We've looked at the manipulation, exploitation, and humiliation that took

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Speaker 1: place to achieve the drama and storylines, and the effect

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Speaker 1: it had on the contestants. But a lot of that

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Speaker 1: conversation has been framed as what A and TM as

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Speaker 1: an entity did or what producers did. And it's true

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Speaker 1: A and TM was a big production. Tyra wasn't the

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Speaker 1: only one in charge. She was of course there for

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Speaker 1: most of it and participated in a lot of it.

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Speaker 1: But she has some plausible deniability for a lot of

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Speaker 1: the stuff we've talked about. That's why I want to

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Speaker 1: look at a part of the show. Tyra took full

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Speaker 1: credit for.

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Speaker 4: Okay, serverycycle of America's Next Top Model.

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Speaker 7: A line of girls off line on all the pictures

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Speaker 7: up and I go one by one and try to

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Speaker 7: decide what would be the best makeover to make them edgy,

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Speaker 7: take them, you know, over the edge.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about the A and TM makeovers, or as

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Speaker 1: they eventually became known as the tieovers, as in Tyra's makeovers.

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Speaker 1: Those episodes are my favorite and inevitably the most dramatic.

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Speaker 1: Every season, Tyra would take some poor, unsuspecting paget girl

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Speaker 1: with big, long hair and give her a pixie cut

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Speaker 1: that would induce a full on meltdown. It was truly

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Speaker 1: the best thing on television. Half of the time, those

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Speaker 1: girls were forced to do a big chop and eliminated

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Speaker 1: soon after. A handful were eliminated the same day. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: at the salon, there are some who say the lace

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Speaker 1: front beard she gave a male contestant on cycle twenty

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Speaker 1: one is enough to put her in the Villain Hall

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Speaker 1: of Fame. I didn't even know they made fake beards

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Speaker 1: until I saw that episode. But the makeovers weren't always

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Speaker 1: just about hair. On cycle six, Tyra famously encouraged that

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Speaker 1: season's winner, Danny Evans to get the gap and her

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Speaker 1: teeth closed.

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Speaker 8: So, Danielle, you went to the dentist, but she refused

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Speaker 8: to have your gap closed.

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Speaker 9: Do you really think you can have a CoverGirl contract

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Speaker 9: with the gap in your mouth?

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Speaker 10: Yes?

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Speaker 7: Why not?

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Speaker 4: This is all people say Injury's beautiful cover girl. It's

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Speaker 4: not marketable, yeah, just.

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Speaker 1: A little bit of okay, but I don't want to

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Speaker 1: completely clothing.

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Speaker 11: Well, I guess she just left the gap wide open

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Speaker 11: for another girl, baby, I agree.

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Speaker 1: Thank god she said no. In the years since, Danny

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Speaker 1: said she refused to get her gap closed because she

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Speaker 1: felt like Tyra and the producers were trying to pressure

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Speaker 1: her for a TV moment. In twenty twenty, after getting

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Speaker 1: some backlash about her comments, Tyra tweeted that she agreed

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Speaker 1: what she said about Danny's gap was insensitive and that

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Speaker 1: her choices were off. But on cycle fifteen, Tyra actually

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Speaker 1: got another girl, Chelsea Hursley, to have her gap widened.

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Speaker 1: Why Tyra thought it was marketable for Chelsea and not Danny,

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 12: My makeover started a lot earlier than everybody else's.

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Speaker 1: I had to get my.

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Speaker 4: Gaff on my teeth whitened, so I went to the

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Speaker 4: dentists and.

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Speaker 1: He actually shaved off each tooth. Of course, I.

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Speaker 4: Will do anything that she thinks looks good.

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Speaker 1: They shaved off parts of her teeth. Hair grows back,

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Speaker 1: but teeth don't. As the seasons went on, it became

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Speaker 1: clear Tyra chose some of these makeovers just to get

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Speaker 1: a reaction from the models, and she knew a lot

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Speaker 1: of them would do anything she said. But while trying

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Speaker 1: to make Tyra happy. Some of the models got hurt.

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Speaker 1: Freelance journalists Kate Taylor talked to contestants who said they

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Speaker 1: were hospitalized because of the makeovers they received on Top Model.

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Speaker 4: People got actually hurt.

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Speaker 9: People had to go to the hospital for burns, People

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Speaker 9: had permanent hair loss that took years and years to

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Speaker 9: recover from. In season sixteen, it's totally off camera, but

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Speaker 9: Mikayla she has to go to the emergency room because

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Speaker 9: she develops the severe.

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Speaker 1: Rash and she just soars on her head that.

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Speaker 4: Just are bleeding.

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Speaker 9: It's a medical emergency, and that is just totally not

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Speaker 9: mentioned on the show because it doesn't fit the narrative

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Speaker 9: of you need to trust Tyra's vision, if you trust Hira,

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Speaker 9: then this is going to work out.

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Speaker 1: On season twelve, though, with a black contestant name Amina Allende,

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Speaker 1: who wore her hair natural, she was pressured into getting

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Speaker 1: it chemically straightened with a relaxer. Amina didn't want to

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Speaker 1: use a relaxer, and she had valid reasons she shared

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Speaker 1: with the producers and the silists, but she told Kate

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Speaker 1: they didn't care.

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Speaker 9: In season twelve, she basically went in and was like,

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Speaker 9: I don't use relaxers. It does not work for me,

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Speaker 9: Like I'm worried if you use this, this is going

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Speaker 9: to create scabs. I'm going to get burns. But the

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Speaker 9: person who was doing the makeover told her this is

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Speaker 9: what Tyra wants. What Tyer wants, Tyra gets in this situation.

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Speaker 4: This is something where she knew if she kept pushing.

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Speaker 9: Back like she'd watch the show, she knew she was

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Speaker 9: going to get eliminated and told she had a bad attitude.

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Speaker 9: So she bit her tongue and she feels her scalp

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Speaker 9: burning when she eventually removes her extensions. After completing the season,

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Speaker 9: she has a two inch bald spot and it took

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Speaker 9: her three years to grow her hair bag.

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Speaker 1: The contestants Kay talked to said they felt powerless in

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Speaker 1: these situations.

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Speaker 9: You're eighteen years old, You've signed this contract. Everyone on

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Speaker 9: production is saying, we can't push back against Tyra. You're

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Speaker 9: not in a position where you can really advocate for yourself.

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Speaker 1: Tyra wanted to see how far these contestants would go

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Speaker 1: to impress her. She was willing to literally cause them

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Speaker 1: injury to carry out her almighty vision. These tieovers seem

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Speaker 1: to be less about fashion and more about humiliation. One

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Speaker 1: of the most disturbing stories I heard about an A

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Speaker 1: and TM makeover came from Gina Turner, the runner up

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Speaker 1: on Cycle twenty four. Gina's kind of known for her

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Speaker 1: bald head, but how that haircut came about puts a

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Speaker 1: point in the villain column for Tyra. Gina has alopecia.

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Speaker 1: It's something she's battled since she was a kid. Before

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Speaker 1: coming on A and TM, Gina wore wigs all the time.

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Speaker 1: She told me if she had to go outside to

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Speaker 1: the mailbox, she would put a wig on. She thought

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Speaker 1: there was a possibility A and TM would want to

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Speaker 1: take her wig off, but she was relieved when Tyra

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Speaker 1: revealed what her makeover would be on GENA season, Tyra

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Speaker 1: had the model's watch a video before going to the salon,

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Speaker 1: where if she explained the new look, each one of

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Speaker 1: them would be getting. Here's what Gina says.

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Speaker 12: She was told, we're gonna give you your natural hair.

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Speaker 12: We're gonna give you your hair back from childhood as

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Speaker 12: what she told me, and I was like, if there's

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Speaker 12: anyone that can do it. I have seen so many

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Speaker 12: different makeovers and Tyra with all kinds of different hair

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Speaker 12: and wigs and everything else. I was like, if there's

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Speaker 12: anyone who can give me back my red, gold blonde,

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Speaker 12: crazy lion main mixed girl hair and make it look real.

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Speaker 12: It's this show. They have the money to do it,

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Speaker 12: so I got really excited about that.

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Speaker 1: At the time, Gina was wearing a long, straight black wig.

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Speaker 1: She thought antm was going to make her a wig

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Speaker 1: that would look like her natural hair if she didn't

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Speaker 1: have alopecia. I will say in the edit that made

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Speaker 1: it to the show, Tyra doesn't say any of that.

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Speaker 1: All she says is Gina's wig is coming off.

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Speaker 12: There's my perspective and the truth, and then there's what

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Speaker 12: happened on reality TV.

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Speaker 1: Gina went to the salon thinking her wig was coming

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Speaker 1: off and being replaced with another wig, but that is

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Speaker 1: not what happened. Rather than replacing her old wig with

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Speaker 1: a new one, she was told they were cutting her

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Speaker 1: hair completely bald. That was her makeover. She felt blindsided.

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Speaker 4: Can we take your wig off now? Because I don't

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Speaker 4: even know what's under off?

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Speaker 12: Do?

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Speaker 13: I so gray?

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Speaker 14: And this world that's going to look at you and

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Speaker 14: say if she can do it, I can do it.

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Speaker 14: You just don't understand for me how courageous and how

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Speaker 14: powerful what you're doing is. It's scary, It's okay, you ready,

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Speaker 14: they're going to solve the process.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't how to doing meself. That's celebrity Silas law

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Speaker 1: Roach talking to Gina in that clip. He was a

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Speaker 1: judge on Gina's season. Gina's wig was removed on camera

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Speaker 1: while she was in tears. Some of her closest friends

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Speaker 1: had never seen her take her wig off. Now she

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Speaker 1: was in a room full of cameras and her patchy

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Speaker 1: wisps of hair were exposed for everyone to see.

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Speaker 12: I just kind of froze, but I remember everyone else

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Speaker 12: going because they all saw in the house that they

404
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Speaker 12: didn't say that they were shaving my head. I stopped talking,

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Speaker 12: and then I started crying because I was angry. Most

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Speaker 12: people who know me would look at that and be like, Oh,

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Speaker 12: she's fucking pissed. Like she's not crying about the situation.

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Speaker 12: She's not sad, she's not poor, pitiful meeting herself like

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Speaker 12: she's pissed.

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Speaker 4: And I was mad. I was mad that they sat

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Speaker 4: there and did that.

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Speaker 12: I was mad that they couldn't tell me the truth

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Speaker 12: that they couldn't like, just tell me that you're gonna

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Speaker 12: shave my head because I also had never had my

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Speaker 12: head shaved. That was still going to give you the

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Speaker 12: same emotional response, maybe even better. But here you guys

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Speaker 12: are trying to like outthink me and outsmart me in

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Speaker 12: my own emotions.

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Speaker 1: Gina told me when she was a kid, she was

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Speaker 1: picked on a lot for having alopecia A and TM

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Speaker 1: taking her wig off on camera brought back all of

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Speaker 1: those memories. Plus she got really upset because they framed

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Speaker 1: her haircut as an empowerment story, even though she had

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Speaker 1: no power in that situation. She says, the producers and

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Speaker 1: judges kept telling her.

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Speaker 12: You don't have any clue how courageous what you're doing is.

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Speaker 12: But in reality, I'm not doing something courageous. You guys

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Speaker 12: are sitting here manipulating a girl who's actually gone through this,

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Speaker 12: and then sitting here and preaching this now to a

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Speaker 12: whole audience. Who's gonna think that girl sat there and

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Speaker 12: did it.

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Speaker 1: I can too.

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Speaker 12: No, No, that is not the narrative that I'm trying

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Speaker 12: to project. Society also conditions us as women to think

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Speaker 12: a certain way.

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Speaker 4: About our hair.

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Speaker 12: My job is not to sit here and suffer so

438
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 12: that you guys can manipulate an entire audience. That now, girl,

439
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 12: you can take your wig off and do it too, because.

440
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 4: I did it. I didn't want to do it like that.

441
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 12: You guys actually changed that narrative for me. Why not

442
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 12: put it in my hands for it to be truthful.

443
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 1: Because putting it in Gina's hands wouldn't get the breakdown

444
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: and the tears. A and TM wanted to add insult

445
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: to injury. Gina says the wig they promised her was

446
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: there in the salon right behind her, and she was

447
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: getting her hair shaved off. Gina eventually embraced the bald look.

448
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: These days she goes back and forth between Wiggs and

449
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: her bald head, but she says she resents A ANDTM

450
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: for exploiting her trauma and forcing her to have a

451
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 1: moment she wasn't ready for. Tyra acknowledged her comments about

452
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: Danny Evans's gap, but she never apologized to Gina or

453
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 1: any of the other girls who say they were traumatized

454
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:37,120
Speaker 1: by their makeovers. After the break we'll talk more about

455
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 1: Tyra's so called apologies and why the ANTM contestants I

456
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: spoke with say it isn't enough. There's another moment from

457
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 1: A and TM I want to revisit. It's one of

458
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: those moments we can't let Tyra off the hook for.

459
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 1: And it happened to cycle for contestant Kenya Hill.

460
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 15: I needed to feel carefree and I need you to

461
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 15: stop posing for the camera.

462
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 4: Kind of get into it.

463
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:14,480
Speaker 16: And I hear Bertini moaning, Uh, I feel him like

464
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 16: breathing on me, touching me, and it's not comfortable at all.

465
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 1: On Cycle four, during the international trip to South Africa,

466
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: the models did a shoot for Caress bodywa Wash. The

467
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 1: contestants had to dance with three male models, but one

468
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 1: of those models, his name was Bertini, took it too

469
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 1: far with Kenya. He was touching her, grabbing her, grunting

470
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,920
Speaker 1: and moaning. Kinga told me she already went into the

471
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: shoot uncomfortable because Bertini tried to hit on her before

472
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: they started shooting, but when he crossed the line during

473
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 1: the shoot, Kingya decided to say something stop.

474
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 4: What's the issue.

475
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 16: I know it's not about feeling comfortable with what I

476
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 16: hear him moaning. It's just strew me off. I'm sorry,

477
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 16: I'm sorry. I don't feel bad about stop to shoot

478
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,679
Speaker 16: it up. Bertini has cross that professional online and I

479
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 16: feel extremely uncomfortable.

480
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 4: We're here in a professional situation.

481
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 17: If they're like fifty of us in here right right,

482
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 17: we're going with the flood.

483
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 4: Here's a Bertini guy. He didn't catch the hint. He

484
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 4: kept doing it.

485
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, So this is for the guys.

486
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 18: Let's try and be interested without literally grabbing her button.

487
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 1: In the clip, you hear Jay Manual acknowledge that Kenya

488
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: was being groped, but other than Kenya saying stop, they

489
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 1: didn't actually stop the shoot or remove Bertini from the set.

490
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: And Kinga told me it was way worse than what

491
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: we saw on the show.

492
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 19: This dude is grabbing me and moaning, and he's got

493
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,880
Speaker 19: on a loin cloth over his member and he's getting

494
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,719
Speaker 19: an erection like he is really overly enjoying this.

495
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was just an awful moment.

496
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: Kenya completed the show and was later forced to sit

497
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: through an awkward, tense dinner with the other contestants and

498
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: the male models. Bertini was there at the panel. The

499
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: judges said Kenya's photo was good, but not great. Kenya

500
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: told them what happened with the male model.

501
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 16: The thing is that this male model Bertini, he was

502
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 16: flirting with me, he was grinding on me. I felt

503
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 16: like he really crossed the line.

504
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 4: That has to be a way that you can handle it.

505
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 4: You know, you have to be able to be in control,

506
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 4: like with.

507
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 12: Your feminine wiles, like boy, you besta back up before

508
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 12: I knock you out side the head, and you do

509
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 12: it in a fun way where he.

510
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 4: Knows to back the heck up.

511
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 8: But it doesn't really put static in the air because

512
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 8: it makes you uncomfortable, Tyra.

513
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: Told Kenya, speaking of advocating for herself and bringing the

514
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: situation to the attention of others, you know, handling it

515
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:53,879
Speaker 1: the right way was actually wrong. Tyra wanted her to

516
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: use her quote feminine wiles. Kenya was hurt and surprised

517
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 1: by Tyra's reaction because she said when she called Brittany out,

518
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: she thought she was channeling Tira.

519
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 20: I'm thinking of what would Tyra do in this instance.

520
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 21: And there have been other moments earlier in the show

521
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,959
Speaker 21: where Tira was trying to teach us about how to

522
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 21: make sure we're not sigitning back contracts, make sure we

523
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 21: are smart business women. She was like empowering us the

524
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 21: entire show, and so I thought Tyra would probably professionally

525
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 21: and politely stop the shoot and just express her feelings

526
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 21: that she's a little uncomfortable.

527
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 4: That's what I genuinely thought.

528
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: When Tyra told Kingya she handled the situation poorly. She

529
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: didn't know what to say, so she kind of just

530
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: took the advice. But watching it back today, as a

531
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: person who coaches young models, Kingya knows Tyra was wrong

532
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: and she wishes she would have pushed back.

533
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 20: It's actually kind of tough to watch back because I

534
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 20: feel so bad for myself at that time. I should

535
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 20: have really stood on business at panel and been like,

536
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 20: I can't believe that you guys are not agreeing with

537
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 20: me on speaking up and standing up for myself. I

538
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:15,959
Speaker 20: just feel it was handled very poorly.

539
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: The contestants on A ANDTM trusted Tyra. They were young

540
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: and looked up to her. Some even idolized Tyra. Tyra

541
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: presented herself as a big sister figure, a mentor who

542
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: was guiding them through what it took to be a model.

543
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: It was part of the appeal of A and TM.

544
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: But when I watch moments like this, it makes me

545
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: realize how insidious that was. Tyra's advice to a teenager

546
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: who was being sexually harassed on set was to be

547
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: cute and flirty while somehow also being firm. Think about

548
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: how dangerous that advice is in an industry that's known

549
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: to prey on young women. Think about how dangerous that

550
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: advice is for the show's mostly young woman audience. But

551
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: moments like these where Tyra says something alarming are common

552
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: on A ANDTM. It's why she has such a vocal

553
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: backlash today. Back in February, Tyra was honored with the

554
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: first ever Luminary Spotlight Award from Essence. The award was

555
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: given to Tyra because of her legacy and fashion, film

556
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: and television. Tyra gave a heartfelt acceptance speech. You heard

557
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: a few clips a bit on this podcast. She started

558
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: by thanking her mom. Then she talked about her early

559
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: years in Paris when she wanted to give up on fashion.

560
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: Then tyraturned to her A and TM legacy.

561
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 8: Over twenty years ago, I created a television show called

562
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 8: America's Next Top Model, and I fought, and you guys

563
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 8: have no idea how hard we fought to bring the

564
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 8: diversity to that television show at a time where it

565
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 8: didn't exist, but we made it happen.

566
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 4: Did we get it right?

567
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: Hell no, I said some dumb shit, But I refuse

568
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: to have my.

569
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 5: Legacy be about some stuff.

570
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 8: Linked together on the Internet when there were twenty four

571
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 8: cycles of changing the world.

572
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: I found Tyro's comments about her ANTM legacy to be odd.

573
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: She acknowledged that she'd done something wrong, but she belittled

574
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: the criticism she received, as if the backlash agets her

575
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: is just a few Internet trolls. Clips of this speech

576
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: started going viral around the time I started interviewing A

577
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: ANDTM contestants for this podcast, so I asked a bunch

578
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: of them what they thought about Tyra's comments. Jessline Gonzalez,

579
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: the winner of Cycle eight, who was in an abusive

580
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 1: relationship and went to therapy at A ANDTM suggestion was

581
00:31:58,320 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: the most kind.

582
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 22: It was refreshing to hear her talk about the show.

583
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 22: You know, it's been so long since I've heard from mother.

584
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 22: You know, that's the mother to us of the show,

585
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 22: and she hit it right on the nail as to

586
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 22: what the show represented and what she was doing with

587
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 22: the show. She's gotten a lot of BackFlash, and I

588
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 22: think she's a human being. She's seeming with those issues

589
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 22: on her own.

590
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: We don't know how.

591
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 22: It is not our job to know how, and it

592
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 22: is not our job to help her heal. That is

593
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 22: on her. What she feels is right and what she

594
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 22: feels as wrong is all on her.

595
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,720
Speaker 1: The other models I asked, weren't so forgiving here? Cycle

596
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: for is Uvigomez. She's like, yeah, did I see a

597
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: lot of messed up things?

598
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 18: Sure, but she was kind of deflecting, like not wanting

599
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 18: to own up to, you know, the very not good

600
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 18: things that she did. Like it was almost like, but

601
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 18: I did all these really good stuff, So why are

602
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 18: you guys focusing on the bad stuff. It's like, nah,

603
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 18: take accountability. We basically sold our souls and they got rich.

604
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: This is what Giselle Sampson had to say about Tyra's statements.

605
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 3: While you're actually doubling down on the things you've done

606
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 3: and said to everyone, Well, that's that's pretty fierce, I guess.

607
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: But the answer that really captured what felt so off

608
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: about Tyra's comments came from Cycle nine Sarah Hartshorn. Sarah's

609
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: the one who just released the book about her time

610
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: on A and t M.

611
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 15: What Tyra said is fair and true. She has a big, huge,

612
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 15: complex legacy, and I understand that she would not want

613
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 15: that to get reduced to clips on the internet. I

614
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 15: think what is also true is that the people in

615
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 15: those clips who were experiencing those things at that time

616
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 15: are real people, and those were real experiences. What she

617
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 15: is reducing to clips on the internet are things that

618
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 15: people went through.

619
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: What Tyra is reducing to a few clips on the

620
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: Internet is a pattern of manipulation, exploitation, and humiliation, and

621
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: Tira was at the center of all of it. Don't

622
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: get me wrong. There are contestants who say they had

623
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: good experiences on ANTM. Jaslene Gonzalez is one of them.

624
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: Psyco three winner Eva Marcel has defended Tyra publicly more

625
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 1: than once. There are even contestants who went on to

626
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: have big careers in entertainment after the show. But what

627
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: about the contestants who feel like they didn't get anything

628
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 1: out of it but trauma. Did their desire for fame

629
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,919
Speaker 1: or a modeling career give ANTM and Tyra the right

630
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: to treat them the way they did. Gazelle Sampson doesn't

631
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: think so, and these days she wants to do something

632
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: about it.

633
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 3: I think that is pretty fair that this needs to

634
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 3: be looked back at and that we should be given

635
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 3: some sort of compensation. Can I petition and put together

636
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 3: all the girls and say this is unjust and let's

637
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 3: make this right and get this in the courts.

638
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 4: This isn't about making it or not.

639
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 3: We are a part of something that became history off

640
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 3: of our backs and to our detriment, and we were hurt,

641
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 3: and we were bullied, and we suffered some psychological issues

642
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 3: from it.

643
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 4: That's what we're talking about.

644
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 3: We're not talking about whether we're famous or we made

645
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 3: this much money from doing this and that because of

646
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 3: the show.

647
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:42,360
Speaker 4: That's not what we're saying.

648
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 15: Faraharts Horn again, I think people deserve to be paid

649
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:47,959
Speaker 15: for their work and their time.

650
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,399
Speaker 1: Are not bitter that I didn't win. I'm bitter that.

651
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 15: There were a lot of girls who couldn't afford the

652
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 15: mental health help that they needed after the show.

653
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: Brandy Brower looks at all the money Tyra and the

654
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: network are still making by licensing the show to streaming services.

655
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: Then she looks at the hate messages and embarrassment some

656
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: of the contestants are still receiving as a result, and thanks,

657
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: they're old a lot more. Remember Brittany, who was white,

658
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 1: was put in black face on her cycle for the

659
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:21,800
Speaker 1: Got Milk shoot.

660
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 6: I mean, you're putting your life out in the world.

661
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 6: Perfect example is me two thousand and five, the episode

662
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,879
Speaker 6: Got Milk. It's real life, it's not a script, it's

663
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 6: not a fake. And you don't know when things are

664
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 6: going to come back and cancel you or something. And

665
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 6: it's hurtful, it's stressful. It's your real life, it's your

666
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 6: real reputation. And then they rerun your episodes over and

667
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 6: over and over and over again on Hulu, on Netflix

668
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 6: and everything else for the rest of your life. And

669
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 6: you know how much money you see, zilch nothing. I

670
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 6: still get comments in people emailing me a message me

671
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 6: on Instagram and TikTok all the time like they're showing

672
00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 6: you are like, oh, I just watch your season, hil

673
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 6: just it's.

674
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 4: Such an unfair industry.

675
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 6: They're making it all the money still just laughing all

676
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 6: the way to the bank and we don't get anything

677
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 6: like nothing, like it's just gosh through me one thousand

678
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:14,439
Speaker 6: dollars per year.

679
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: I'll take it.

680
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 6: We give me some thing like it's so insulting, like

681
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 6: we do this stuff and we get nothing nothing.

682
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: Sharon Brown was a high school student when she got

683
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 1: sent home embarrassed on Cycle eleven. Remember Sharon says she

684
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: was made to look like a bigoted bully by the producers.

685
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: Now what she wants is for Tyra to finally show

686
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: up as that big sister that mentor the one Tyra

687
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: seemed to be on the show.

688
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 23: I chose to be a part of America's Next Time All,

689
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 23: and I used and noted it to the most that

690
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 23: I can would It had been great to get compensated

691
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 23: or when things were sold to different networks. Is enough

692
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 23: to have a playing your residuals and that, yes that

693
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 23: I would love to see a beautiful conversation had with

694
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 23: t and all of the other contestants on Top Model,

695
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 23: either in a private senit or filmed a recorded so

696
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 23: we can just talk. I would love to see there

697
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 23: being like more sisterhood and connection, even just her taking

698
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,800
Speaker 23: the time just to reach out to some of us

699
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 23: or to offer any type of tips are guided even

700
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 23: like okay, how can you use your platform now?

701
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: But that big sister role Tyra played on A and

702
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: TM was just that a role. Here's former creative producer

703
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: Andrew Patterson.

704
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 2: Tyra Banks played a character called Tara Banks on Top Model.

705
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 2: She would walk out on judging, she would sit in

706
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 2: a chair, she wouldn't talk to the other judges, but

707
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 2: she would sit down focused because you know, that's just

708
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 2: her getting into character.

709
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: Several contestants told me about bizarre interactions with Tyra when

710
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: the cameras were rolling. She was the warm, bubbly person

711
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:58,839
Speaker 1: we knew from the show. But Juli Gomez told me

712
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: that when the director would yale cut, it.

713
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 18: Was like she was vacant, like she was churning it

714
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 18: on for filming, like she wasn't there. That's how I

715
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 18: would explain her, explain how I viewed her on the show. Now,

716
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 18: when I went on the Tyra Show, completely different person

717
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 18: like hugged us, gave us kisses, Oh my.

718
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 4: Gosh, so good to see you. You look great, And

719
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 4: I was like so confused. I was like, now you're

720
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 4: acting like a normal human.

721
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 18: But on the show it was there was like such

722
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 18: a disconnect.

723
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 1: Even though some contestants like UV understand that Tyra was

724
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 1: playing a character, they still want the real Tyra Banks

725
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:49,760
Speaker 1: to acknowledge what A and TM did. Cycle two Winner

726
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 1: you want to have, and a lot of other contestants

727
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: just want an apology from Tyra.

728
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 7: I think one of the things people are wanting from

729
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 7: Tyra is accountability and an apology instead of standing behind

730
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 7: the franchise. Where I think people are getting frustrated with

731
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 7: her continual response is that I know a lot of

732
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 7: the girls had probably gone through a lot of things

733
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 7: after the show or during the show, you know. I

734
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 7: think having more of an empathy instead of a combative

735
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 7: like no, no no, I did my best, and maybe

736
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 7: giving girls their names that have come up against her.

737
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 7: I had no idea that so and so had struggled

738
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 7: so much. I had no idea that I had made

739
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 7: that person feel that way. Putting a name behind somebody

740
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 7: helps make that person human.

741
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 1: If Tyra wanted to at least seem like she was

742
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: atoning for the harm A and TM cost, you want

743
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: to think Tyra should make personal apologies.

744
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 4: A lot of the girls felt they were just discarded.

745
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 7: They were just a prop for financial gain, for popularity,

746
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 7: for network ratings.

747
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 4: And I think when you can put a name.

748
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 7: And you can listen and admit you know what was

749
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 7: done wrong and apologize.

750
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 4: That's real growth.

751
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 1: Tyra has made public apologies, but they're usually couched in

752
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: her intention, like this time when she addressed the second

753
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 1: blackface challenge.

754
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 24: I mean, we felt like our skins beautiful, let's paint

755
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 24: the world our color, and then we saw it and

756
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 24: we're like, oh no, this excuses other people to do

757
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 24: this in a negative way.

758
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: Or the time she's addressed the body shaming on the

759
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: show where she blamed it on it being a different

760
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: time back.

761
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 5: In the day, nobody complained about it, but as we

762
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 5: all evolve twenty years later, people like what the hell?

763
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: Or Tyra brings up her altruistic reason for creating A

764
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 1: and TM, you know, changing the fashion industry and expanding

765
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: the definition of beauty. Her apologies also seemed to be

766
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 1: directed at the public at her audience, not to the

767
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 1: models who say they were harmed by the show, and

768
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: they're rarely specific in the way Yo Wanna is suggesting.

769
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: When A and TM started over twenty years ago, I

770
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,720
Speaker 1: think Tyra's intentions were in the right place. She wanted

771
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: to showcase diversity and beauty. She wanted to usher in

772
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: a new generation of models who wouldn't have to go

773
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: through some of the things she went through alone. I

774
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: really think she wanted to be that fashion fairy godmother,

775
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: but somewhere along the way, her purpose got lost and

776
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: took a back seat to her blind ambition. That blind

777
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: ambition is what made her body shame these young women,

778
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 1: even though she knew personally how painful that is. Her

779
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: ambition is what made her go along with dangerous and

780
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: humiliating photoshoots. Her ambition is what made her plan disastrous

781
00:42:55,719 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: and embarrassing makeovers. Her ambition pushed her to put young

782
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: women in uncomfortable situations and then blame them for not

783
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: going along with it. Her ambition is what allowed her

784
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: to look the other way when women who looked like

785
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 1: her were being labeled angry or divus. Her ambition is

786
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 1: what drove her to do this season after season for

787
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: fifteen years. I think her blind ambition is what's keeping

788
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: her from taking real accountability the way you want to

789
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: suggest it, And there are contestants who agree with me.

790
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,720
Speaker 1: Psycho seven's Eugena Washington posted a video on social media

791
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: where she said kind of the same thing.

792
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 12: I think the fact that she refuses to apologize is

793
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 12: what's going to keep her failing.

794
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: If Tyra really wanted to take accountability, she would put

795
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: as much effort into righting her wrongs as she did

796
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 1: into making A and TM. But instead she's cashing in

797
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 1: on her fame with her bizarre passion projects.

798
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 5: I feel like I'm going crazy. I don't sleep these

799
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 5: ideas you keep coming in my head. I'm talking about

800
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 5: hot ice cream innovation that took me over a year

801
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 5: to get right.

802
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: I have a sneaking suspicion that Hot Mama ice Cream

803
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 1: ain't gonna be as big as A ANDTM. It seems

804
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 1: like she's still surrounded by people who are afraid to

805
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: tell her no, and at this point she's unstoppable. Remember

806
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: that clip you heard on the first episode of this podcast.

807
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 4: Now, I mean I always want more.

808
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 16: I always want to do more.

809
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:42,959
Speaker 4: I never like just stop and get satisfied with something.

810
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 1: So this interview was in nineteen ninety six, before Tyra

811
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 1: started A ANDTM, but she kept that same ambition. It's

812
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: what pushed her to do A and TM for twenty

813
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: four seasons, even after it was obvious that it wasn't

814
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: living up to her so called mission. But ambition can

815
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 1: be your downfall. I think Tyra's ambition is keeping her

816
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,359
Speaker 1: from truly acknowledging what happened on ANTM and her role

817
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: in it. She doesn't want to tarnish her legacy, but

818
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 1: avoiding accountability is also the thing that's ruining it. After

819
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: the break, we'll explore A and TM's legacy with one

820
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: of the few people who's talked more contestants than me.

821
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: I'm talking about superfan and content creator Oliver TwixT. Around

822
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 1: twenty twenty, A and TM had a bit of a revival.

823
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: People were looking for something nostalgic to watch, something that

824
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: took them back to simpler times. Oliver TwixT was one

825
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: of those people.

826
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 11: So I started watching A and TM as a jit

827
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 11: as a little boy in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. My earliest

828
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:06,200
Speaker 11: memory of Top Model has to be seeing Eva and

829
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 11: ya Ya in the finale because my female relatives would

830
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 11: watch it. But actually becoming a fan of it was

831
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,680
Speaker 11: birth out of the marathons that used to run on

832
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 11: VH one every weekend. I would sit there in my

833
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 11: room and watch the cycles and the episodes back to

834
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 11: back to back to back to back, and I just

835
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 11: became so enthralled with the creativity of it. All.

836
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: Oliver is an A and TM super fan. He's watched

837
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: every season and can rattle off winners and specific photo

838
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: shoots and runways like his ABC's. Oliver is also a

839
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 1: content creator, artist, and entertainer. Back in twenty twenty, he

840
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 1: was on a reality show called The TS Madison Experience.

841
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: The EP of that show, David Saint John had been

842
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 1: a producer on A and TM.

843
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 11: Him and I on set in between scenes talking about

844
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 11: Top Model, and I'm just running running down the cycles.

845
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 11: You know, I'm da da da da da da. He's like,

846
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 11: oh my god, you really love this show.

847
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: And David was still good friends with A and TM

848
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: judge j Manuel.

849
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 11: And so from there, David connected me with Ja Manuel,

850
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 11: where Jay sent me his book that he did loosely

851
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 11: inspired on his time on Top Model.

852
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,800
Speaker 1: Jay was doing these lives in which he would revisit

853
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 1: old seasons and sometimes be joined by former A and

854
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: TM judges, contestants and super fans. Jay invited Oliver to

855
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 1: do an Instagram live with him about his book.

856
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 11: So I'm all live Instagram with Jay Manuel and I'm

857
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,719
Speaker 11: asking him all these questions and the comments are like,

858
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 11: oh my god, who is this Oliver God.

859
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 1: Oliver got so many responses from that Instagram live, he

860
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: thought he could keep it going and interview some of

861
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: the A and TM contestants he loved. Luckily, for Oliver,

862
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 1: it was COVID lockdown and everybody was bored in the

863
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: house and the houseboard.

864
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 11: So originally I started just dming people. I like, look

865
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 11: them up on social media and I would DM them

866
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 11: and I was like, hey, do you want to be

867
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 11: interviewed by me? I used to do them on Instagram only,

868
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 11: but then once I started putting them on YouTube, that's

869
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 11: when it went to a whole another level of people

870
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 11: watching and viewing and chiming in and supporting and taking notice.

871
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: Oliver didn't set out to be the person A and

872
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,879
Speaker 1: TM models came to when they wanted to tell never

873
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 1: before heard stories or talk about their trauma from the show.

874
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: He just wanted to have fun and gossip about his

875
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 1: favorite A and TM moments. But Oliver started doing these

876
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 1: interviews around the same time many of us realized A

877
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: ANDTM wasn't as wholesome as we remembered. His interviews gave

878
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 1: us the backstories on a lot of the disturbing things

879
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 1: we were revisiting and even though he didn't mean to.

880
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 1: Oliver's interviews helped spark the A and TM reckoning.

881
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 11: I'm genuinely just interested in fanning out for this hour,

882
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 11: two hours or three hours that I have this person

883
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 11: with me, you know, about my favorite show that I

884
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 11: absolutely love. And so my intentions were always just rooted

885
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:13,399
Speaker 11: in wanting to hear them and hear what they had

886
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 11: to say, without no filter, without no judgment, allowing these

887
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 11: people to tell their story their way, whether I like it,

888
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 11: agree with it, believe it, whatever it is. And so

889
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 11: as people are talking, I'm seeing tears, I'm seeing mood changes,

890
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 11: I'm seeing people say I've never shared this before. I'm

891
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 11: hearing people use words such as this was so healing.

892
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 11: I appreciate this.

893
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,760
Speaker 1: Oliver was one of antm's biggest fans. He knew every word,

894
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: but hearing about the dark side of the show directly

895
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 1: from the models forced him to think more critically about

896
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: Tyra Banks.

897
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,359
Speaker 11: She's a human too, She had never had no show

898
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 11: as big as Top Model ever in her life to

899
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 11: base her actions off of. But unfortunately for Tyra and

900
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:07,280
Speaker 11: people like Tyra, when you get into that position of power,

901
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 11: it does come with responsibilities.

902
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: Tira is not only a superstar with a huge platform,

903
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: She's a black woman with a lot of power, and

904
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: black women in positions of power often face unfair criticism.

905
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 1: When I started this podcast, I was thinking a lot

906
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 1: about if the public criticism of Tyra is fair or

907
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 1: if she's being held to a different standard. I ask

908
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: still Professor rockhal Gates what she thinks about this.

909
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 25: Tyra Banks is in a very weird bind because I

910
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 25: think there's this way that, you know, like everyone wants

911
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 25: to make her uniquely accountable for everything that happened on

912
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:50,959
Speaker 25: that show. And again, some of that makes sense because

913
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 25: it's her show, right and because she is the figurehead, right,

914
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 25: and it's built.

915
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 1: On her back.

916
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 25: But I think there's a way where sometimes I think

917
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 25: the call for accountability feels a little dishonest to me,

918
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 25: because it's asking her to be accountable for an entire network,

919
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 25: for a production company, for decisions made by sponsors, by

920
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 25: cover girl, by magazines, by advertisers. And I think that

921
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 25: what we're seeing is sort of her refusal to be

922
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:21,240
Speaker 25: scapegoaded for all of those decisions, even though that seems

923
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 25: to be what our society is constantly demanding of black women.

924
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,439
Speaker 1: When I talked to freelance reporter Bethany Butler, she brought

925
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 1: up something similar.

926
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 10: I think it's a little unfair for people to say, like, well,

927
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 10: Tyra should have, you know, taken care of these big

928
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 10: personalities within the franchise. You know, you can't really say

929
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 10: that anymore than we could say Simon cow should have

930
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 10: done that or Donald Trump, even which sounds hilarious right now,

931
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 10: But just.

932
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 4: The idea that like.

933
00:51:56,800 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 10: Tyra would be almost held accountable in a way that

934
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 10: other non black, certainly non black women host creators of

935
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 10: franchises are.

936
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 1: There's truth in what Bethany and Raquel are saying. Black

937
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 1: women are held to a different standard, and I do

938
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: think that's happening to Tyra. She shouldn't be the only

939
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 1: one held responsible for A and TM's failures. But I've

940
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: also talked to the people Top Model Hurt, many of

941
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 1: whom are black and brown women who are so young.

942
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 1: When they went on the show, they trusted Tyra, and

943
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: they were left feeling used after having those conversations. I

944
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:43,719
Speaker 1: think Tyra deserves the smoke. It's just that so do

945
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: a lot of other people. Here's Oliver TwixT again.

946
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 11: I feel like when you're in the game of people

947
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 11: as your currency, you do have to answer to those expectations,

948
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 11: especially when you are a black woman and black women

949
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:05,799
Speaker 11: are in the conversation. Now. Ultimately, to be fair, does

950
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:10,280
Speaker 11: Tara have to No, you know, y'all sign this paper.

951
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 11: Y'all just signed it all the way.

952
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: He's talking about Tyra's legal responsibility to the contestants based

953
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 1: on the A and TM contract.

954
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 11: But I do believe you should try to answer to

955
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 11: those conversations. And I think the problem with Tyra is

956
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 11: she's never done that. She's never really directly answered questions

957
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 11: or specific things. She's never really had this type of moment,

958
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 11: you know, with someone who's saying, well what about this,

959
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 11: what about this, and being truthful in that moment. You know,

960
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:44,919
Speaker 11: She's always done these blanket statements and not saying that's

961
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 11: not good enough or whatever. Only she and her God

962
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 11: can determine that. But I think when it comes to

963
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 11: the people, people just want to hear her answer things directly.

964
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 1: We started this podcast asking Perez Hilton why A and

965
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: TM was such a hit when it premiered twenty years ago.

966
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 1: They also asked him what he thinks the show in

967
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 1: Tyra's legacy is today.

968
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 13: They made memorable television that had cultural impact, and that's

969
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 13: hard to do. The show is awesome, like you also

970
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 13: have to celebrate what it got right, and that's you know,

971
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:26,800
Speaker 13: making good TV.

972
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 1: And Pareses is a lot of that had to do

973
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 1: with Tyra Banks herself.

974
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:37,319
Speaker 13: The people that are talked about often most of them

975
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 13: want to be talked about and play the game. It's

976
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 13: a game, and Tyra played the game.

977
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 1: Tyra and A and TM sold a fantasy, a fairy tale.

978
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 1: Oliver Twigs believed in it, but now he can't even

979
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: bring himself to watch the show.

980
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 11: I do not watch the show anymore. I think for me,

981
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 11: the curtain has just been pulled back all the way

982
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 11: and the fantasy is now gone for me.

983
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 1: That happened to me too. It's not that A and

984
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 1: TM isn't still entertaining, but I can't enjoy the show

985
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 1: because after hosting this podcast, I'm constantly questioning the reality

986
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:22,800
Speaker 1: A and TM presents. Now I know it's all manufactured,

987
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 1: and watching a show where you're second guessing everything you

988
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 1: see isn't fun. I asked Oliver the question at the

989
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 1: center of this podcast. Knowing all we know today, what

990
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 1: is A andtm's legacy.

991
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 11: I definitely do believe a part of their legacy is

992
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 11: being one of the reality TV shows that shaped the genre. Definitely,

993
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 11: people like to demonize the show, and they can do that,

994
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 11: but from that crop of reality TV shows birth during

995
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 11: that time on Top Model has had the longest lasting effects.

996
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 11: People still watch that show like it just came on yesterday.

997
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 11: People still spend thousands of dollars to produce content talking

998
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:20,360
Speaker 11: about that show because it's still so relevant until the

999
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:25,360
Speaker 11: show definitely is I believe the face of staying power

1000
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 11: within this genre and the entertainment business, and I think

1001
00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:32,799
Speaker 11: for it to be held by a black woman is

1002
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 11: also powerful. I also think the legacy of Top Model

1003
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 11: keeps us having these types of important discussions about how

1004
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 11: do we treat people within entertainment, How do we treat

1005
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 11: people who are just starting out, who are green to

1006
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 11: the industry, how do we treat them, how do we

1007
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:56,760
Speaker 11: inform them? I believe it's also an example for people

1008
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 11: just starting out what could happen? You know, what could

1009
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 11: happen in your own career if you come in contact

1010
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 11: with someone who you thought was going to answer all

1011
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 11: of your dreams and it doesn't happen that way.

1012
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:11,919
Speaker 4: What do you do?

1013
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 11: It's definitely a shining example on what to do and

1014
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 11: what not to do.

1015
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 1: You might be surprised, but when my team and I

1016
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 1: started working on this podcast, I actually resisted the name

1017
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 1: Curse of I wanted this podcast to be more about

1018
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: A andtm's iconic legacy than the cursed aspect. Nostalgia can

1019
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 1: do that to you. It makes you romanticized and sometimes

1020
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 1: misremember what actually happened. It can make you rigid in

1021
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 1: your thinking. We don't want to confront the truth about

1022
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 1: the things we used to love. But after being confronted

1023
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 1: with the reality of ANTM, I had to think differently.

1024
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 1: I realized the curse isn't just on the contestants or

1025
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:03,760
Speaker 1: their careers. The curse of America's next top model is

1026
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 1: on us too. A and TM birthed an entire generation

1027
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:13,919
Speaker 1: of reality TV and taught the audience that as long

1028
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 1: as it's in the name of entertainment, people are disposable.

1029
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 1: According to Perez Hilton, expert in base human nature, that's

1030
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 1: part of A and TM's legacy too.

1031
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 13: I don't want reality TV to be nice, we want messiness.

1032
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 13: The reality TV viewers want drama. That's what reality TV is.

1033
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 13: They want the housewives fighting. It's harsh, but it's like

1034
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 13: they want these people to be exploited.

1035
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 1: And when those exploited people start speaking out, we look

1036
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,440
Speaker 1: for someone to blame. When I was talking to Cycle

1037
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:52,439
Speaker 1: twenty contestant Corey Wade about the backlash A and TM

1038
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 1: has gotten over the past few years, I expected him

1039
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 1: to join the hate train, but he surprised me.

1040
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 17: We all tend to want to point the finger at Tyra,

1041
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 17: and we all want to try to find a villain

1042
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 17: in her. I think it's more important now more than ever,

1043
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 17: that we kind of look at ourselves, that we kind

1044
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 17: of take some responsibility, that we take responsibility for ourselves,

1045
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 17: so to speak. We are the consumers, the people who

1046
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 17: love that show, who watched it every single week. Its

1047
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 17: success was due to us and how much we supported it,

1048
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 17: how much we loved it. So take a look at

1049
00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 17: what you are entertained by today.

1050
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 1: Don't worry. This isn't a soapbox moment where I urge

1051
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 1: you to stop watching reality TV. I'm certainly not gonna stop,

1052
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 1: but I do wonder if it's because I grew up

1053
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 1: watching a show that prime me to believe exploiting people

1054
00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 1: is okay as long as there's a good story or

1055
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 1: prize at the finish line. A and TM and shows

1056
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,960
Speaker 1: like It made us believe that the price of pursuing

1057
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:10,760
Speaker 1: instant fame is humiliation. There are a lot of people

1058
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:14,280
Speaker 1: who say we're judging the show too harshly. Perez Hilton

1059
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 1: is one of those people.

1060
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:19,640
Speaker 13: There's this new trend of revisiting the past with the

1061
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 13: lens of today that I don't know if it's fair.

1062
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 1: Honestly, I wouldn't expect anything different from Perez, but this

1063
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 1: is one thing I disagree with him on. Thinking critically

1064
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 1: about the past pushes pop culture forward. Our entertainment has

1065
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: to evolve with us ideally. Talking about how far we've

1066
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 1: come is what keeps us from making the same mistakes.

1067
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:46,120
Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong. In twenty years, when we open

1068
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 1: The Love Island or Love is Blind, Capsule will probably

1069
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 1: be horrified all over again, but hopefully by then we

1070
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 1: will have learned enough not to repeat the curse of

1071
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 1: America's Next Top Model. Thanks for listening to the Curse

1072
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 1: of America's Next Top Model. We're grateful for your support.

1073
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 1: We'd love for you to really show your support by

1074
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 1: subscribing to our show on Apple Podcast. Don't forget to

1075
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:17,959
Speaker 1: give us a five star review. If you love the show,

1076
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 1: tell your group, chat your friends, your mama to check

1077
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 1: us out, and if you don't, maybe keep that one

1078
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 1: to yourself. The Curse of America's Next Top Model is

1079
01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 1: a production of Glass Podcast, a division of Glass Entertainment Group,

1080
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 1: in partnership with iHeart Podcast. The show is executive produced

1081
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 1: by Nancy Glass, hosted and senior produced by me Bridget Armstrong.

1082
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 1: Our story editor is Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben

1083
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:48,360
Speaker 1: Fetterman and Andrea Gunning. Associate producers are Alisha Key, Kristin Melciriy,

1084
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:52,440
Speaker 1: and Curry Richmond. Consulting producers on this podcast are Oliver

1085
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 1: TwixT and Kate Taylor. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry

1086
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:59,920
Speaker 1: and Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing on this episode by Mat

1087
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 1: Vechio and Tanner Robbins. The Curse of America's Next Top

1088
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 1: Model theme was composed by Oliver Bains music library provided

1089
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 1: by myb Music. Special Thanks to everyone we interviewed, especially

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Speaker 1: the former contestants, and for more podcasts from iHeart, visit

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Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Also check out the Etglass Podcast Instagram for Curse of

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Speaker 1: America's Next Top Model, behind the scenes content,