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Speaker 1: Body Times with Joseph Scott more.

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Speaker 2: I guess probably after the past two weeks, I've come

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Speaker 2: to view the word suspicious in a whole new light.

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Speaker 2: And granted I've been at this quite some time, and

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Speaker 2: I'm a grown man. I should have known better. But

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Speaker 2: with the death of Gene Hackman and his wife Betsy Arkawa,

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Speaker 2: that term was thrown around, initially by the police in

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Speaker 2: New Mexico, and then it took off like wildfire with

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Speaker 2: the media. I guess we could spend an entire episode

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Speaker 2: talking about how the media will hook into something and

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Speaker 2: won't let it go, and all you're left with is

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Speaker 2: a memory of things that seemingly are unanswered because you

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Speaker 2: never could quite get past that one word suspicious are questionable.

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Speaker 2: But what we are left with is the passing of

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Speaker 2: one of the greatest actors, certainly in my lifetime, and

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Speaker 2: by all appearances, a very fine man as well. I'm

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Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. Well, Dave, we

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Speaker 2: finally have some answers relative to the death of Gene Hackman,

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Speaker 2: and more specifically his cause of death. His manner, for

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Speaker 2: my money, has never been in question. I have not

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Speaker 2: felt that necessarily that there was anything particularly suspicious about

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Speaker 2: Gene Hackman's death. But unfortunately we went down that road,

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Speaker 2: didn't we, relative to you know, I.

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Speaker 1: Think really it was because of not that he died

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Speaker 1: at the age of ninety five inside his home, but

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Speaker 1: it was the fact that his wife, who was thirty

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Speaker 1: one years younger than him, also was dead inside the

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Speaker 1: home where he was found inside what they have referred

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Speaker 1: to as the mudroom. I have never referred to my

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Speaker 1: utility room as a mudroom, but now I will. I actually, Joe,

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Speaker 1: when I first saw that and the mudroom, I thought

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Speaker 1: it was like like a room that you know, how

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Speaker 1: to have mud walls and some Oriental homes. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: thought that's what it was, and I thought his wife whatever.

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Speaker 1: I mainly that's what I thought. I didn't know it

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Speaker 1: was actually a room where you kicked the mud off

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Speaker 1: your shoes room. So anyway, but she was found in

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Speaker 1: the bathroom, so Jean's found in there and he's It

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Speaker 1: appeared based on what we were told, that maybe he

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Speaker 1: was getting dressed to go outside when he had some

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Speaker 1: type of cardiac event that caused him to die in

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Speaker 1: the mudroom. Meanwhile, his wife of many years is dead

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Speaker 1: in the bathroom with pills spilled around her, and a

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Speaker 1: dog in a I'm guessing a carrying case cage thing

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Speaker 1: also dead. And I think that was why there was

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Speaker 1: some suspicion air quotes on the deaths, because they both

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Speaker 1: died at the same time thirty one year age difference.

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Speaker 1: I think that's why there were questions about what really happened.

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Speaker 1: I think you were very board from the very beginning

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Speaker 1: that it wasn't suspicious. There's probably a reasonable explanation, and

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering, now, do we have that reasonable explanation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we do. I was never inclined to believe that,

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Speaker 2: you know, someone entered this private gated community in Santa Fe,

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Speaker 2: New Mexico, and specifically went to Gene Hackman's home and

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Speaker 2: decided to take the lives of both of these people.

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Speaker 2: I thought that that was bizarre in and of itself.

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Speaker 2: Some people had actually, you know, put forth that they

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Speaker 2: thought that that might be what happened, and then we

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Speaker 2: had the carbon monoxide. Now was that plausible? Yes, it

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Speaker 2: is plausible, and that does happen. It happened in cases

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Speaker 2: I've worked. It's happened over the years for a variety

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Speaker 2: of friends of mine from all across the nation where

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Speaker 2: you're going to if you're a medical legal death investigator

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Speaker 2: for any period of time, you're going to catch case

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Speaker 2: involving multiple deaths from carbon monoxide. It's going to happen.

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Speaker 2: You can't avoid that because it's everywhere, and you get

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Speaker 2: a high concentration and it will endure life very very quickly.

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Speaker 2: But when that cleared up and they knew that there

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Speaker 2: was nothing to it, and they're not prattling on about

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Speaker 2: marks on the body or anything like that, I knew

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Speaker 2: that it had to be something natural. And so my

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Speaker 2: mind began to drift towards this idea of and here,

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Speaker 2: let me give you some inside baseball information. I can

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Speaker 2: say it now, but I'd had one newsperson, and eventually

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Speaker 2: it became two that said to me before it was

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Speaker 2: ever made public, that he had dementia. And when I

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Speaker 2: heard that, and it's something that is not to be unexpected.

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Speaker 2: He's ninety five years old. Come on, give me break,

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Speaker 2: he's ninety five. And as it turns out, you know,

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Speaker 2: he's got Alzheimer's. And so when I heard that, I

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Speaker 2: knew that what we were faced with here was probably

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Speaker 2: going to be a death or death that you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of cycled around around some kind of natural manifestation.

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Speaker 2: With Betsy, it that that was the big question. It

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Speaker 2: wasn't so much mister Hackman, okay, but with his wife

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Speaker 2: that was a big question because as you had stated,

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Speaker 2: what was that age difference is like.

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Speaker 1: Thirty, she was sixty four, he was ninety five.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thirty one years younger. What unless she's got some

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Speaker 2: kind of really bad heart history, or maybe she's got

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Speaker 2: some kind of cerebral blockage or something where she's going

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Speaker 2: to have a stroke. You know, I couldn't put my

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Speaker 2: finger on it. It was so it was so bizarre,

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Speaker 2: you know, how she could just fall over dead. But

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Speaker 2: one clue I think that we had was the fact

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Speaker 2: that she was in the bathroom, and in the bathroom

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Speaker 2: with us pills scattered all about, And it was the

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Speaker 2: fact that they were talking about how many pills were

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Speaker 2: scattered about on the counter and everything, and someone had

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Speaker 2: asked me, is this an overdose? And I'm thinking, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, if you overdose on medication, it stands to

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Speaker 2: reason there would be more in than out, if you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean, Uh, there wouldn't be pills scattered

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Speaker 2: all about. I mean to the point where they're talking

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Speaker 2: about that they were laying everywhere. You would think that

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Speaker 2: if that was the intention here, you know that you

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Speaker 2: wouldn't see all of these pills. They would have been ingested.

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Speaker 2: So it sounds like it was some some kind of

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Speaker 2: sudden event she had. From my understanding, she had just

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Speaker 2: returned with the dog from the vet. If I'm not mistaken,

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Speaker 2: this poor animal had undergone some type of treatment at

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Speaker 2: the veterinarian's office, and that's the reason the dog was

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Speaker 2: caged up, you know, to you know how they want

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Speaker 2: you to keep the animalize and keep them, yeah, and

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Speaker 2: keep them contained. And when she was seen, when she

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Speaker 2: was seen out and about she is now she's been seeing.

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Speaker 2: She's traveling around town all masked up. We know that

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Speaker 2: she had gone to CVS. We know that she had

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Speaker 2: gone to the farmer's market. Okay, we know that she

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Speaker 2: had actually on the pet store. So you've got her

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Speaker 2: making all of these locations. And I think that on

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Speaker 2: the last day that she was known to have been alive,

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Speaker 2: which was the eleventh, I believe that's when the last

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Speaker 2: activity on her card, her swipe card to get access

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Speaker 2: to the gate getting back. That's the last time that

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Speaker 2: they had recorded. I think it was like five just

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Speaker 2: after five pm that day, and then she rolled back

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Speaker 2: up to the house at that point.

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Speaker 1: Interesting how we can track people by our electronics now,

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Speaker 1: you know, whether it's a pass card or our phone

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Speaker 1: or yeah, in this case even a pacemaker is involved.

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Speaker 1: But let me I want to back up to something

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Speaker 1: you mentioned dementia and Alzheimer's disease. Is I kind of

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Speaker 1: thought that one led to the other. Is that what

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Speaker 1: is the difference or is there what are we talking about?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, dementia is kind of a broad ranging term, and

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Speaker 2: there could be. But he, mister Hackman had been diagnosed

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Speaker 2: with with with Alzheimer's. And here's saying they didn't just

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Speaker 2: diagnosed him. It wasn't just his diagnosis wasn't merely Alzheimer's disease.

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Speaker 2: His diagnosis was advanced Alzheimer's.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, So that means years in development.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah. And it's going to be variable dependent

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Speaker 2: upon what type of treatment and individuals a areergoing. And

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Speaker 2: I think some of your genetic predispositions relative to your

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Speaker 2: survive survivability, I think because it's not going to end

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Speaker 2: well either way. And with with him it had been

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Speaker 2: because this is a guy and I was doing some

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Speaker 2: some reading. Do you know that up until I know

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Speaker 2: that back in his sixties, he was still boxing. He

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Speaker 2: would he would Yeah, that may have just been shadow boxing.

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Speaker 2: But he had a workout partner, trainer. He could box.

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Speaker 2: He had boxed in the Marine Corps, you know, all

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Speaker 2: all those years ago, back in the fifties, and he

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Speaker 2: still had muscle memory for that. You know. His trainer

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Speaker 2: is even quoted as saying, you know, he he knew

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Speaker 2: the positions of the feet, he knew how to strike,

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Speaker 2: and he he could move really well. He played golf,

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Speaker 2: he did pilates, he did yoga, you know. So this

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Speaker 2: is not a guy and he watched what he ate.

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Speaker 2: You know, this is not a guy that that didn't

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Speaker 2: take care of himself. You know. But you know, seeing

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Speaker 2: Crew was see encruachment of time.

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Speaker 1: No, Dave Well, when he retired. You know a lot

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Speaker 1: of actors they don't actually announce their retirement, you know,

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Speaker 1: although recently we have had a few do it. But

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Speaker 1: when Gene Hackman stopped performing, I remember it happening because

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Speaker 1: I enjoy his work. I enjoyed some of his last

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Speaker 1: work in film and Heartbreakers comes to mind, where he

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Speaker 1: plays the head of a tobacco company. He's always smoking.

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Speaker 1: Smoking's a bit. It's just it's just a funny guy.

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Speaker 1: But I loved his I just really enjoyed his performances.

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Speaker 1: And when he announced he was going to stop acting

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Speaker 1: and he was going to take time writing, you know,

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Speaker 1: something that he enjoyed doing and wanted to do. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's just you hit that age. I mean with actors

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Speaker 1: usually they just kind of fade, you know, because they're

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Speaker 1: parts dry up. But we've had Gene Hackman walking away.

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Speaker 1: I think Jack Nicholson did the same thing. Once Gene

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Speaker 1: Hackman said I'm done, you know, Nicholson followed not far behind.

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Speaker 1: That's why at the fiftieth anniversary for SNL, when Jack

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Speaker 1: Nicholson showed up, it was such a big deal. You

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Speaker 1: he introduced Adam Sandler's segment. And it wasn't a big, long,

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Speaker 1: drawn out thing. He was sitting in his position in

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Speaker 1: the seat, you know, but he did introduce Adam Sandler

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Speaker 1: and Jack said it was because he was having trouble

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Speaker 1: remembering lines and things like that. That's why he quit

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Speaker 1: performing several years ago, but we recently had the Bruce

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Speaker 1: Willis where he has something in the family of the

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Speaker 1: dementia family that is causing him to lose his ability

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Speaker 1: to communicate, to speak. And he was filming a movie

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Speaker 1: in Alabama, just outside of Birmingham in Bessemer, and a

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Speaker 1: couple of friends of mine were actually working on the

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Speaker 1: set and they were talking about how he was having

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Speaker 1: to be fed his lines.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I heard that. I'd heard that from a

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Speaker 2: separate source of mind that was probably three years ago

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Speaker 2: from a uh guy's a producer I'm really good friends with,

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Speaker 2: and he had mentioned how, you know, they would have

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Speaker 2: to use Q cards or they would have one of

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Speaker 2: those tiny little things in their ear, you know, where

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Speaker 2: they could be fed that way.

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Speaker 1: And I thought that was they at the time, it

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Speaker 1: was kind of positioned as he's so lazy, he doesn't

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Speaker 1: even bother to learn his lines, and then it didn't

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Speaker 1: It was not long after that last time that they

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Speaker 1: came out and said, you know, he is suffering from this.

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Speaker 1: So in the last few years of catching these types

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Speaker 1: of things, it kind of made me wonder what was

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Speaker 1: going on with with Gene Hackman. And as you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: dementia and then advanced Alzheimer's.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: Like I said, I think a lot of us don't

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Speaker 1: know the difference.

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Speaker 2: Between Here's Here's one of the really interesting things about

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Speaker 2: this condition is that did you know that the as

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Speaker 2: as this is a degenerat of disease, and so as

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Speaker 2: it progresses, the actual cells of the brain begin to diminish,

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Speaker 2: they actually grow smaller and smaller, and so at autopsy,

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Speaker 2: the brain will actually way less, uh say, for instance,

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Speaker 2: as opposed to somebody of the same age group that

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Speaker 2: is not suffering from this condition, the brain will actually

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Speaker 2: be smaller. And you know, isn't that isn't that interesting

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Speaker 2: because many times you you this kind of it's almost

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Speaker 2: like a childlike regression. You know that you see where

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Speaker 2: individuals that have this malady, they they become It's it

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Speaker 2: starts off where they're having uh they can't put thoughts

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Speaker 2: together very well, they can't think things through like they

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Speaker 2: once could, and they'll present with being confused, you know,

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Speaker 2: and then over a period of time they do become

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Speaker 2: more childlike until they're almost infantile. And that's that's the

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Speaker 2: really horrible thing about this case. The horror of the

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Speaker 2: fact that your bride who you've been married to all

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Speaker 2: these years passes on and that you might not have

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Speaker 2: any awareness that she's left. I think most of us

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Speaker 2: can look back over our lives and we have these

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Speaker 2: moments in time where we're confused about things, or we

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Speaker 2: don't know what to do next, and and you know,

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Speaker 2: we can't find the words for something. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: just insert whatever phrase you want to into that. In

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Speaker 2: the case of Gene Hackman, there this is a constant

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Speaker 2: fight that he had been fighting for a long long time. Uh.

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Speaker 2: The thing that really sent a chill up and down

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Speaker 2: my spine with Betsy was the fact that she had

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Speaker 2: probably and I really thought this was more accurate than

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Speaker 2: initially uh what people were saying. I think that because

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Speaker 2: they kept using the term mummifoed, she had. She had

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Speaker 2: been down for in my opinion, for several days prior

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Speaker 2: to him passing on. And now we do know that

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Speaker 2: his pacemaker actually registered his last activity on the seventeenth.

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Speaker 2: And let's let's do the math on this. You know,

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Speaker 2: she her last activity that we know of, okay, with

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Speaker 2: the card key for the front gate to the neighborhood

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Speaker 2: was on the eleventh, So I don't know five six

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Speaker 2: days perhaps that, you know, assuming that when she walked

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Speaker 2: through the door that she passed on at that moment time.

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Speaker 2: And then you combine that with what I believe was

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Speaker 2: his total dependency upon her. He had to have her

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Speaker 2: day to survive, I mean, truly to survive. He needed

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Speaker 2: her guidance. Again, I think I mentioned this in our

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Speaker 2: initial episode about about their deaths. There was that image

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Speaker 2: where you could see him walking or crossing their street

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Speaker 2: and he was holding on to her, you know, dependent

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Speaker 2: upon her to you know, ambulate from one side of

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Speaker 2: the street to the other to get her about. And

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Speaker 2: that's got to be that's got to be so very

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Speaker 2: difficult for a man that was so virile. You know,

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Speaker 2: as a matter of fact, on screen he could be

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Speaker 2: very scary. You know, he looked like he could, you know,

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Speaker 2: snap your neck if he wanted to. I'm thinking about

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Speaker 2: Mississippi burning right now, you know, and those those If

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Speaker 2: you've never seen that movie, you just need to see

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Speaker 2: the one scene in there involving him and Michael Rooker.

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Speaker 2: It will really that's that that's a great summation of

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Speaker 2: how much power he had. It is incredible to see

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Speaker 2: him and he was like that in all his roles,

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Speaker 2: you always felt like there was something just beneath the

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Speaker 2: surface with him that was ready to explode at any

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Speaker 2: moment in time. And he had this kind of menacing

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Speaker 2: laugh that he would give, you know, like yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of like I could never do it justice. But

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Speaker 2: it was just you always felt like he was right there.

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Speaker 2: But then at the end, I believe that he probably

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Speaker 2: Dave unfortunately, probably wandered around that house for several days

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Speaker 2: with her lying in that bathroom and there, you know,

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Speaker 2: there was nothing, he could do nothing. You know, he's

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Speaker 2: a childlike state and completely incapable of taking care of himself.

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Speaker 2: I'm surprised he actually maybe lasted as long as he did.

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Speaker 2: You know, that might go to how tough he was.

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Speaker 2: But this is how I know this. Did you know

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Speaker 2: that at autopsy they checked his stomach there was no

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Speaker 2: food whatsoever. He had not eaten. He had not eaten,

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Speaker 2: And that gives you an indication that you know, he's

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Speaker 2: already in diminished state and then most physically and psychologically,

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Speaker 2: and then to go without food, that's just one more

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Speaker 2: nail in the coffin day. We know.

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Speaker 1: I was reading the BBC did an article about it.

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Speaker 1: And says this actor Gene Hackman, was alone. The two

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Speaker 1: time Academy Award winner, didn't make any calls and missed meals.

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Speaker 1: Medical experts say it's possible the ninety five year old,

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Speaker 1: who was in declining health and suffering from advanced stages

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Speaker 1: of Alzheimer's disease, did not even realize his wife of

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Speaker 1: more than thirty years was dead in the home where

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Speaker 1: he was living. If he did, experts tell the BBC,

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Speaker 1: he likely went through various stages of confusion and grief

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Speaker 1: trying to wake her up before the disease caused him

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Speaker 1: to become distracted or too overwhelmed to act, a process

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Speaker 1: that likely repeated for days before he too died. That's

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Speaker 1: exactly what you described, Joe, of not being able to

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Speaker 1: understand or maintain focus enough to do anything about it

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Speaker 1: and even care for himself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, And you know, I don't know, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to wax to ethereal here, but you know, talking

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Speaker 2: about dying of a broken heart and there's absolutely nothing

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Speaker 2: you can do about it and being trapped, and that's

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Speaker 2: the way a lot of people describe the disease itself

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Speaker 2: as being trapped and the fact that he was in there.

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Speaker 2: I think that's that's the most and for me in

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Speaker 2: this case, that's the biggest takeaway because they lived a

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Speaker 2: life that was that kept them isolated to a great

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Speaker 2: degree where I think that as he had gotten up

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Speaker 2: in age, and matter of fact, one of the articles

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Speaker 2: that I'd read where they were interviewing this friend of

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Speaker 2: his that was a trainer, said that he was really

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Speaker 2: conscious of the way he looked now, you know, and

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Speaker 2: he's an actor obviously that you know, that says a lot.

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Speaker 2: You know that he didn't even like looking at old

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Speaker 2: films because he knew that he wasn't that person anymore.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, it does. It does make sense.

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Speaker 1: Wife, Joe. I mean, we know that he was in

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Speaker 1: a diminished capacity. We know that, you know, dementia and

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Speaker 1: advanced Alzheimer's, and he was ninety five. But his sixty

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Speaker 1: four year old wife, how did she die? What happened

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Speaker 1: to her? And why were they both in various stages

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Speaker 1: of mummification when they were found?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. Again, even though well even though the

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Speaker 2: record itself says or the the let me see, what's

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Speaker 2: the proper phraseology, the affidavit for the warrant actually alludes

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Speaker 2: to the fact that she was beginning to mumify, and

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Speaker 2: it said that he was similar. Well, I don't know

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Speaker 2: what similar means. That's not a medical legal report. That's

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Speaker 2: not the way we would have written it in my field,

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Speaker 2: because you take both individuals. Yeah, probably the investigator that

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Speaker 2: was trying to get the warrant, you know, And I

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Speaker 2: understand why they wrote it, and it's their purpose is

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Speaker 2: different than our purpose. But still I don't know how

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Speaker 2: valid that is as far as the assessment of his remains.

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Speaker 2: I suspect that they did not appear the same, absolutely

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Speaker 2: the same. I think that he had not He did

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Speaker 2: not show as much postwarum change as she did. Now

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Speaker 2: there would have been some, obviously, but not to the

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Speaker 2: degree that she was okay, And so I think we

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Speaker 2: have to take that with a grain of salt, you know,

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Speaker 2: relative to how they appeared when compared to one another.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know if that's necessarily a great comparison

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Speaker 2: or not. But in the case of Betsy Arkawa's cause

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Speaker 2: of death, I was struck by something so out of

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Speaker 2: left field, and many of us were. We never saw

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Speaker 2: it coming. And the origins of her death lie in

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Speaker 2: a tiny Rodent. Many moons ago, when I was going

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Speaker 2: through training in the Army, we were placed on the

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Speaker 2: US Mexico border. And again this is a long time ago.

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Speaker 2: This is before the days of what we're currently experiencing

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Speaker 2: with illegal immigration, and we had set up on a

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Speaker 2: site where we would surveil an area for a period

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Speaker 2: of time. And during that time I saw a manner

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Speaker 2: of wildlife. I even saw a sidewinder, which I'd never

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Speaker 2: seen before, which was really bizarre. But then my friends

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Speaker 2: noticed that were out there, and I finally saw one

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Speaker 2: these little mice that were out there. And the thing

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Speaker 2: about these little mice is that they had really long

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Speaker 2: long tails and that they could hop, and when I

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Speaker 2: say hop, I mean like really hop high in the air,

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Speaker 2: and they would eat food give it to them. One

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Speaker 2: of my friends actually enticed one of these mice in

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Speaker 2: the air with a chrumb of food from sea rats

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Speaker 2: to jump up and take this cracker from him. And

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Speaker 2: as it turns out, that little species of mice plays

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Speaker 2: into the death of Betsy Arkawa, and I guess by

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Speaker 2: default plays into the death of gene Hagwan Dave.

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Speaker 1: Because she was unable to care for him after she passed.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah, it's like the old poema, you know, for

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Speaker 2: the want of a nail, a horse shoe was lost.

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Speaker 2: Of a horseshoe, a horse was lost. Yeah, it's kind

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Speaker 2: of It's amazing and it the way life intersects that way, Dave.

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Speaker 1: It's called hauntavirus. Yeah, this is I remember a movie

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Speaker 1: that came out years ago with Dustin Hoffman and Rene Russo,

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Speaker 1: Morgan Freeman and Donald Sutherland, and it was called Outbreak,

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Speaker 1: and it was in the haunt of virus was mentioned

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Speaker 1: in New Mexico. What actually is that as a respiratory disease?

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Speaker 1: As it goes? What is it? How does it? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I have no clue other than a movie.

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Speaker 2: Listen, not many people do you. Obviously, you know those

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Speaker 2: in the know, in particularly in people that are epidemiologists

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Speaker 2: and people that study these bizarre kinds of diseases that

395
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Speaker 2: are out there, they would be up to snuff, as

396
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 2: they say, on these on this particular disease, it's not

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Speaker 2: something that is encountered. And let me frame it for you,

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Speaker 2: even with a tighter focus. New Mexico is considered to

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Speaker 2: be a hotbed for haunted virus. And I think that

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Speaker 2: they might experience maybe twenty nine to deaths per amum,

401
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Speaker 2: I think, which is pretty significant. But it's not even

402
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Speaker 2: like the flu okay, I mean, it's not that the

403
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:16,959
Speaker 2: circumstances have to be just right in order for this

404
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 2: to end in some kind of terminal event. The disease

405
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 2: itself is actually spread through three ways, and the number

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00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 2: one carrier is carried by rodents. But according to their

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Speaker 2: public health people in New Mexico, which by the way,

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Speaker 2: I got to tell you this for folks that don't know.

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Speaker 2: Did you know that the public Health service in the

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Speaker 2: state of New Mexico actually administers the State Medical Examiner's Office,

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Speaker 2: which is State Medical Examiner, is not affiliated with law enforcement,

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Speaker 2: which I think is grand because it is a scientific pursuit.

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Speaker 2: They cannsider it to be public health, you know, and

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Speaker 2: it's catch all, and I think that it's great. So

415
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 2: they work on what's called a medical investigative model, and

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Speaker 2: I'm just I love it, absolutely love it that it's

417
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Speaker 2: separate from any kind of law enforcement agency because, you know,

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Speaker 2: the lawn share of death that they work that all

419
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 2: of us work in my field are not homicides. Lawn share,

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00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 2: you know, natural death and we, yeah, we work accidents,

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Speaker 2: and you know, we're the ones that work all the accidents.

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Speaker 2: We're the ones that work all of those suicides and

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Speaker 2: the homicides and everything else. But they view it through

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Speaker 2: a different lens than we do. So anyway, the State

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00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 2: Health Department, actually, you know, has has talked about how

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Speaker 2: it is. It's been identified as a hotbed for this

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Speaker 2: CDC has identified it as a hotbed for this virus.

428
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: But the way it spread is three ways, either saliva

429
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 2: of the rodent, urine of the rodent, or feces. And

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Speaker 2: they ran pretty extensive testing at the home. Inside of

431
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 2: this home. This is a big house, man, it's a

432
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 2: really big place. And they didn't see they didn't see

433
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 2: any evidence of mouse droppings inside of the house, according

434
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: to what they're saying. Okay, however, when they went out

435
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 2: to the outbuildings or outbuilding, they did see this. They

436
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 2: did see mouse droppings out there. And so let's just

437
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: say that Betsy and I don't know, I don't know

438
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 2: this for a fact. Okay, Well, let's just say and

439
00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 2: she's a primary caretaker here, so I'm sure that she

440
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 2: busies herself through the day cleaning and those sort of things.

441
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 2: Maybe she went out to the outbuilding. Okay, this is

442
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 2: one possible scenario. Just one went out to the outbuilding

443
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: and she had a broom in her hand, and she

444
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 2: began sweeping up out there.

445
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: Okay.

446
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 2: Well, as she's sweeping up, those remnant of feces that

447
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 2: are out there suddenly become aerosolized. So if you think about, like,

448
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 2: have you ever been standing by a window with the

449
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 2: sun beaming through and you could see the dust paricles? Okay,

450
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 2: that's essentially aerosolized. Okay, dust particles that you're seeing. Well,

451
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 2: she stirs this up with a broom for instance. All right,

452
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 2: and while she's out there, she's got to breathe. Right,

453
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 2: while she's out there, takes a deep breath. Well, guess

454
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 2: what she's just done. She is just taking the stuff up.

455
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 2: And the mice are carrying this virus within them and

456
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: it's in their excrement. Okay, and now she's introduced this

457
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,239
Speaker 2: into her system. Well, we don't know how long she

458
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 2: had had this. This is really weird because you know,

459
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 2: they say that I was reading about this because I

460
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: got to tell you, Dave, I've never worked a case

461
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 2: of hauntavirus, never ever did you know that the incubation period.

462
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 2: You're going to be amazed by this. The incubation period

463
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 2: is one to eight weeks. That's how va this is

464
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 2: how big this number one to eight weeks, I know, man,

465
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 2: So you're thinking it takes that long for this thing

466
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 2: to incubate and then I guess begin to present.

467
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: I don't know.

468
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 2: We do know that ever since COVID, or in the

469
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 2: midst of COVID, they did self isolate. During that period

470
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 2: of time, they were both wearing masks. That's been documented.

471
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 2: And I don't know if Betsy had chosen to mask

472
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 2: up permanently or whatever the case might be. But when

473
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 2: she was going about to all these stores, she was

474
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 2: wearing a mask. Okay, we're talking about that last day

475
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 2: of that activity on that card reader and she makes

476
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 2: it back home. Well, this thing is eating at her.

477
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 2: She's carrying this virus in her body. But maybe this

478
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 2: is kind of a reach for me because I'm a

479
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 2: romantic at heart. But I'm just thinking she knows that

480
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 2: she has a job to do. She loves her husband.

481
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,399
Speaker 2: They've been a committed relationship for a long long time.

482
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 2: She is his caretaker. She knows that she's got to

483
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 2: get home and take care of him at all costs,

484
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 2: and she just pushes through. I don't know about you,

485
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 2: my wife, though, I will say I will say this,

486
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter how bad my wife feels. If one

487
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 2: of us when my children were still at home and

488
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 2: obviously I'm still here, she could have a fever of

489
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 2: one hundred and if we're sick, she's going to put

490
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: us ahead of ourself. That's just the way she rolls. Listen,

491
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,959
Speaker 2: I don't care how it comes off sounding. There's something

492
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 2: about women that that's the way they are. Thank God.

493
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, if it wasn't for my wife,

494
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 2: I'd be dead probably, you know, she just.

495
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 1: You know, she did save your life in January, that's

496
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:35,240
Speaker 1: for sure.

497
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,359
Speaker 2: Yeah she did. She did, no doubt about it.

498
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: And some of them, you know, that's what we got

499
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,439
Speaker 1: to do a cape for Kim.

500
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, part of that goes to her cussing out

501
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 2: medical staff at the hospital for her, let's take care of.

502
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: If she's got pontivirus. She is probably not. You mentioned,

503
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: she's not feeling her best. She goes to the drug store,

504
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 1: she's picking up whatever, and she's dealing with it.

505
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 2: And we still have an answer to that. By the way,

506
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 2: we don't know if there were if it was meds

507
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 2: for him, or if it was meds for her, or

508
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 2: if it was something over the counter. She went to CVS.

509
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 2: I mean we all go to CVS, you know, or

510
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 2: have we all had been to CVS one time or another. Yeah,

511
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 2: And here's one o the things mister Hagman was. He

512
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 2: was taking till deltizing and it is a medication that

513
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 2: is used for high pertension and also in China, and

514
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 2: he's got really bad hypertension and he's had it for years.

515
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,399
Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, autopsy revealed that he had

516
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 2: pretty severe kidney disease. And the kidney disease that he

517
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 2: had was high pertensive changes. And when you see a

518
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 2: kidney that has had these hygh pertensive changes, it's very

519
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:58,879
Speaker 2: see how can I describe it? Most of the time,

520
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 2: we all know what a kidney bean looks like, right, Well,

521
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:08,399
Speaker 2: kidney beans kind of had a smooth, glistening appearance to them.

522
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 2: When you see them hypertensive changes, and the kidney can

523
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 2: actually give the kidney the appearance it gives it non appearance.

524
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 2: It actually gets these kind of nodular spaces all over it.

525
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 2: I mean when you see it, it looks diseased, all right,

526
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 2: Well he had that going on and Dave, if he

527
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 2: had missed this medication on top of not being not

528
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 2: drinking water and you know, not taking on any kind

529
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 2: of nourishment, it's a death sentence. I mean, it really is.

530
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 2: In ninety five. So that's another added thing to this.

531
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 2: So you know, we know that she went to CVS

532
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 2: and she's walking around with hot fires and I can't

533
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 2: even begin to imagine how that feels. I know this

534
00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: it attacks, It attacks lungs. That's numeral, know, that's where

535
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: it goes.

536
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: So she's as she is getting worse apparently you know

537
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 1: her own health, and we know that she was in

538
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: the bathroom. We know the pills are spilled. She dies.

539
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,359
Speaker 1: Gene Hackman is wandering around the house. You're not able

540
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: to focus on anything, not even able to provide nourishment

541
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: for himself. What is he doing? I mean, is he

542
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 1: going to sleep? Is he going to do? We know anything?

543
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 1: I mean I'm trying to figure out because based on

544
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: what we know, I can just picture this incredibly famous,

545
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 1: old wealthy man, a good guy from all reports, right,

546
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 1: and his last days are spent not even being able

547
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: to feed himself walking around the house.

548
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, yeah, and you think about, you know,

549
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 2: what's really important with patients with his condition is routine.

550
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 2: But there's that one kind of stalwart thing in his

551
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 2: life that's now absent, and that's Betsy. You know she is.

552
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 2: She is the lynch pen In in every aspect of

553
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 2: his life, guiding him about, walking him about, you know,

554
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 2: feeding him, giving him water, giving him comfort. And we

555
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:30,879
Speaker 2: hate to think of this diminished state that he was in.

556
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 2: We hate to think that he suffered at all. We

557
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: hate to think that Betsy suffered at all. But we

558
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 2: do know this. They passed away together, days apart, but

559
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 2: yet together in their home and a home that they

560
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 2: had built over many years, and they are now together

561
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 2: forever in eternity. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is

562
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 2: Bodybacks

563
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: H